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guillensdisciple
04-10-2012, 10:25 AM
Just heard on the radio, definitely deserved. I don't know if this is getting roadhoused but it is baseball news.

hawkjt
04-10-2012, 10:31 AM
Marlins trying to nip this in the bud as much as possible.
They have a PR disaster on their hands,and they need to appear very concerned,and come down on their employee.

When you hear an ESPN guy ,columnist Dan LeBatard, refer to Fidel as, ''their Hitler'', it does give a bit of a different weight to these comments.
Right or wrong,if that is how these people actually feel, the uproar is more understandable.

Aren't you Cuban,guillen? Are you outraged?

34rancher
04-10-2012, 10:32 AM
Just heard on the radio, definitely deserved. I don't know if this is getting roadhoused but it is baseball news.

Gotta wonder if the dugout is leaning on Buehrle for advice on dealing with this. He has to just be shaking his head.

eriqjaffe
04-10-2012, 10:33 AM
Anybody who had Zambrano in the "first new Marlin to get suspended" pool just lost.

kittle42
04-10-2012, 10:36 AM
Aren't you Cuban,guillen?

Seriously?

guillensdisciple
04-10-2012, 10:38 AM
Marlins trying to nip this in the bud as much as possible.
They have a PR disaster on their hands,and they need to appear very concerned,and come down on their employee.

When you hear an ESPN guy ,columnist Dan LeBatard, refer to Fidel as, ''their Hitler'', it does give a bit of a different weight to these comments.
Right or wrong,if that is how these people actually feel, the uproar is more understandable.

Aren't you Cuban,guillen? Are you outraged?

Lebatard is absolutely right. Yes, I am half but extremely rooted in the culture. The first perso I spoke with about this was my dad and he basically cussed him out in Spanish. In kinder words his entire thing was " the idiot has never lived in Cuba or lived through Fidel, Miami is going to eat hi alive now". There was a lot more menace and anger in it but I ten to agree. I have been to Cuba 7 times since 2001 and it has been the same torn down island since I have been. Those words are out of base an ludicrous. I really had nothing against Ozzie until he said this, hence my wsi name, but this is too much. His approval of a tyrant who ruined and entire country might be the worst thing he has ever done. I hope they fire him by the end of the year.

Lip Man 1
04-10-2012, 10:39 AM
Buehrle told ESPN's Jayson Stark in a column posted today that he's never seen Ozzie make this type of statement before. That Ozzie looks like he hasn't slept in three days and that it's really bothering him.

Lip

SI1020
04-10-2012, 10:48 AM
Buehrle told ESPN's Jayson Stark in a column posted today that he's never seen Ozzie make this type of statement before. That Ozzie looks like he hasn't slept in three days and that it's really bothering him.

Lip It never occurred to him that words can have serious consequences? I guess not, since in his case they hardly ever did.

34rancher
04-10-2012, 10:52 AM
Buehrle told ESPN's Jayson Stark in a column posted today that he's never seen Ozzie make this type of statement before. That Ozzie looks like he hasn't slept in three days and that it's really bothering him.

Lip

He probably hasn't slept since he might be a hunted man down there.

guillensdisciple
04-10-2012, 10:55 AM
He probably hasn't slept since he might be a hunted man down there.

I don't wish this upon anyone, but that was one of my dad's warnings so you might not be far off.

Noneck
04-10-2012, 10:57 AM
The worse thing an ignorant person can do is open ones mouth.

Senerch23
04-10-2012, 10:57 AM
I'm just happy he isn't our problem any more.

hawkjt
04-10-2012, 10:58 AM
I do think some of it is Ozzie's lack of command of the english language at times.
Like yesterday's quote:

'' I have not slept well for three days...not because of what I do,but because I hurt a lot of people''

That comment makes no sense. I suspect it is not exactly what he wanted to say,but it comes out nonsenical.

guillensdisciple
04-10-2012, 11:02 AM
I do think some of it is Ozzie's lack of command of the english language at times.
Like yesterday's quote:

'' I have not slept well for three days...not because of what I do,but because I hurt a lot of people''

That comment makes no sense. I suspect it is not exactly what he wanted to say,but it comes out nonsenical.

Then say it in ****ing Spanish, this was against a Spanish speaking culture. I call bs on that one, he's not entitled to America, just to the Cuban American population in Miami and America.

TomBradley72
04-10-2012, 11:08 AM
I don't think this press conference is really helping him.

GoGoCrede
04-10-2012, 11:10 AM
I don't think this press conference is really helping him.

What's been said? Is it on now?

Martinigirl
04-10-2012, 11:10 AM
He is very childlike. When he gets in trouble he lies to get out of it. I am sure he did say he loved Castro, without any thought of the consequences. Once it all blew up, he blamed the translator. Now when called on that, once again he backtracks, knowing there is a recording of him saying it.

So glad he is gone.

TomBradley72
04-10-2012, 11:11 AM
What's been said? Is it on now?

Yes- ESPN carrying it live.

Domeshot17
04-10-2012, 11:15 AM
He is an idiot, and just a bad human being. I am glad he is not our problem anymore. Can't wait for his idiot children to start tweeting and defending their dad. I am sure somehow this is Kenny Williams' fault.

GoGoCrede
04-10-2012, 11:16 AM
Yes- ESPN carrying it live.

Awesome. Can anyone give us the gist of what he's saying?

ChiSoxGal85
04-10-2012, 11:19 AM
To me, it sounds like Guillen really did say "I love Castro...I admire him", but intended it in a joking manner - more like that he is incredulous that Castro is alive after all the conflict and death from his regime. It was an extremely poor choice of words, and now he can't refute saying it.

The written word, whether English or Spanish, frequently cannot convey sarcasm. It's very dangerous and stupid to joke about serious things like that anyway, especially to a member of the media.

And yes, I'm glad he's gone.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-10-2012, 11:21 AM
I heard on M & H this morning that Cowley tweeted OG should be fined and move on, that it will blow over.

Hey Joe, how's that sound now?

Hitmen77
04-10-2012, 11:22 AM
Haven't people learned by now? Ozzie just says these outrageous things to take the heat off of his players! He's a genius!!!

kittle42
04-10-2012, 11:30 AM
Haven't people learned by now? Ozzie just says these outrageous things to take the heat off of his players! He's a genius!!!

Post of the thread.

Martinigirl
04-10-2012, 11:32 AM
I heard on M & H this morning that Cowley tweeted OG should be fined and move on, that it will blow over.

Hey Joe, how's that sound now?

I just imagine joe, sitting at his computer, trying to figure out what he could write to absolve Ozzie of any blame and find some "inside information" that it was someone else's fault.

GoGoCrede
04-10-2012, 11:35 AM
Does this mean he won't be at their home opener? I'm sure the boo birds would have been out in full force.

Thome25
04-10-2012, 11:36 AM
I heard on M & H this morning that Cowley tweeted OG should be fined and move on, that it will blow over.

Hey Joe, how's that sound now?

Cowley is an entirely different story. In the last hour or so, he has tweeted some extremely insensitive remarks regarding the hispanic language and culture in this country and has defended Ozzie through all of this....if I'm the Suntimes, I fire him ASAP.

The amazing part of this is the Marlins are only a few games into their season and Ozzie has already pulled this bull****. They saw in three games what we have put up with for 8 years....only this time, to a much larger degree.

Rocky Soprano
04-10-2012, 11:37 AM
Does this mean he won't be at their home opener? I'm sure the boo birds would have been out in full force.

Home opener was last week.

#1swisher
04-10-2012, 11:38 AM
Awesome. Can anyone give us the gist of what he's saying?

Guillens' presser in english.
http://www.prorumors.com/2012/04/rumors/ozzie-guillens-press-conference-in-english?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


Evan Drellich / MLB.com translates.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120410&content_id=28317734&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

GoGoCrede
04-10-2012, 11:38 AM
Home opener was last week.

Whoops. Still, curious as to the reception he's going to get from here on out. Should be a doozy, but possibly peter out eventually.

soltrain21
04-10-2012, 11:39 AM
I saw he also blamed what he said for getting lost in translation. Guy has been speaking English longer than I have.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-10-2012, 11:45 AM
Cowley is an entirely different story. In the last hour or so, he has tweeted some extremely insensitive remarks regarding the hispanic language and culture in this country and has defended Ozzie through all of this....if I'm the Suntimes, I fire him ASAP.


For Cower-ley to NOT defend OG means that Joe admits he himself was wrong.

Like Moronotti - hang on to the truth you yourself created thereby being right only in your world.

I quote George Constanza - "Remember Jerry, it's not a lie.....IF YOU believe it."

soltrain21
04-10-2012, 11:46 AM
For Cower-ley to NOT defend OG means that Joe admits he himself was wrong.

Like Moronotti - hang on to the truth you yourself created thereby being right only in your world.

I quote George Constanza - "Remember Jerry, it's not a lie.....IF YOU believe it."

I like watching Cowley justify what Guillen said was okay because Sean Penn does it. First off, Sean Penn doesn't answer to anyone in terms of "a boss" and secondly, no one likes Sean Penn as a person either.

Thome25
04-10-2012, 11:52 AM
I like watching Cowley justify what Guillen said was okay because Sean Penn does it. First off, Sean Penn doesn't answer to anyone and secondly, no one likes Sean Penn as a person either.

He's adding fuel to the fire like he always does but, this time he's touching on a subject that's going to get him burned.

Let's not get this thread roadhoused by discussing that asshat. Because there's some good discussion going on in here otherwise.

October26
04-10-2012, 11:54 AM
Lebatard is absolutely right. Yes, I am half but extremely rooted in the culture. The first perso I spoke with about this was my dad and he basically cussed him out in Spanish. In kinder words his entire thing was " the idiot has never lived in Cuba or lived through Fidel, Miami is going to eat hi alive now". There was a lot more menace and anger in it but I ten to agree. I have been to Cuba 7 times since 2001 and it has been the same torn down island since I have been. Those words are out of base an ludicrous. I really had nothing against Ozzie until he said this, hence my wsi name, but this is too much. His approval of a tyrant who ruined and entire country might be the worst thing he has ever done. I hope they fire him by the end of the year.

I am 100% Cuban and am outraged. I spoke with my dad about this on Sunday and he feels just like yours does. My family in Miami is also really upset. I just cannot imagine what Ozzie was thinking when he said this. How could he not think that this would blow up in his face?

And yes, I too am very glad that Ozzie Guillen is no longer the Sox problem.

soltrain21
04-10-2012, 11:55 AM
He's adding fuel to the fire like he always does but, this time he's touching on a subject that's going to get him burned.

Let's not get this thread roadhoused by discussing that asshat. Because there's some good discussion going on in here otherwise.

I've just never seen a reporter so attached to anything. Let alone a baseball manager.

Thome25
04-10-2012, 11:57 AM
I've just never seen a reporter so attached to anything. Let alone a baseball manager.

I agree. It's almost symbiotic.

ChiSoxGal85
04-10-2012, 12:00 PM
I am 100% Cuban and am outraged. I spoke with my dad about this on Sunday and he feels just like yours does. My family in Miami is also really upset. I just cannot imagine what Ozzie was thinking when he said this. How could this not blow up in his face?

And yes, I am very glad that Ozzie Guillen is no longer the Sox problem.
I was wondering when you were going to speak up on this subject as I knew you were from Cuba. You and your family have every right to be outraged! It was time for Ozzie to leave last season, and now I'm even more grateful to the Marlins for taking him off our hands.

TommyJohn
04-10-2012, 12:00 PM
:moron

"You filthy smut Sox fans are wrong again, as usual. This is all Reinsdorf's fault! He enabled Ozzie!! Reinsdorf is truly the person responsible for the reprehensible comments about Castro, just as he is responsible for Castro himself!! If Reinsdorf had fired Ozzie after he called me a ***, this would never have happened!! You do know that Ozzie called me a ***, don't you? He did! Many years ago, but an obsessed whacko never forgets! He did call me a ***! He did! He did! He called me a ***! I swore I would get even, and at last I have! I drove him out of town, and now he is in trouble again! Take that, Blizzard!!"

soltrain21
04-10-2012, 12:03 PM
:moron

"You filthy smut Sox fans are wrong again, as usual. This is all Reinsdorf's fault! He enabled Ozzie!! Reinsdorf is truly the person responsible for the reprehensible comments about Castro, just as he is responsible for Castro himself!! If Reinsdorf had fired Ozzie after he called me a ***, this would never have happened!! You do know that Ozzie called me a ***, don't you? He did! Many years ago, but an obsessed whacko never forgets! He did call me a ***! He did! He did! He called me a ***! I swore I would get even, and at last I have! I drove him out of town, and now he is in trouble again! Take that, Blizzard!!"

That's great, Jay. I ordered my fries like 15 minutes ago. Where are they?

doublem23
04-10-2012, 12:07 PM
That's great, Jay. I ordered my fries like 15 minutes ago. Where are they?

I would have gone more along the lines of, "So, dude, do you want the change in my pocket or should I give it to the hobo at the next corner?"

guillensdisciple
04-10-2012, 12:10 PM
I am 100% Cuban and am outraged. I spoke with my dad about this on Sunday and he feels just like yours does. My family in Miami is also really upset. I just cannot imagine what Ozzie was thinking when he said this. How could he not think that this would blow up in his face?

And yes, I too am very glad that Ozzie Guillen is no longer the Sox problem.

There are only two things I can think of:

1. And this is just trying to help him; he was being sarcastic and it was not taken as such. If this is the case, he probably should have ended it with a I'm kidding and why would you ask such a dumb question.

2. He is insensitive, and believes he has so much control of the Latino population that his words are gospel. I believe that to be the case, as I know many Latino white sox fans who always loved Ozzie just because they shared something with him. I elieve Ozzie took this comfort and decided it was okay just because he was Ozzie guillen and no one would have anything against it.

GoGoCrede
04-10-2012, 12:15 PM
There are only two things I can think of:

1. And this is just trying to help him; he was being sarcastic and it was not taken as such. If this is the case, he probably should have ended it with a I'm kidding and why would you ask such a dumb question.

2. He is insensitive, and believes he has so much control of the Latino population that his words are gospel. I believe that to be the case, as I know many Latino white sox fans who always loved Ozzie just because they shared something with him. I elieve Ozzie took this comfort and decided it was okay just because he was Ozzie guillen and no one would have anything against it.

I would agree. He's always seemed to appreciate his Latino fans in particular (and in turn, they appreciated him - my parents in particular). I can buy that he honestly put his foot in his mouth. I can even buy that he's sorry, because he's getting major backlash from the one fanbase that truly adores him. But coming to a new club, where there is such a large Latino population, can't imagine what he was thinking. I'm sure he thought people would know he was being sarcastic, but there are some things you just can't joke about. I think this has hit him worse personally than the whole having to go to sensitivity training thing has, because it's coming from a population of fans that he really cares for.

SI1020
04-10-2012, 12:17 PM
Haven't people learned by now? Ozzie just says these outrageous things to take the heat off of his players! He's a genius!!! The thing is many Sox fans actually believed that and would beat you up verbally if you disagreed.

Thome25
04-10-2012, 12:20 PM
Local Baltimore-area sports radio just had a Cuban-American Miami sports reporter on (don't know his name turned it on while the discussion was already in-progress).

The Miami reporter said that the city is more than 50% hispanic and half of that number are Cuban. He said that the entire hispanic community is in an uproar and that Ozzie's own culture (Venezuelans) are also pissed at him....I dont think he can ever recover from this one...

Taliesinrk
04-10-2012, 12:24 PM
There are only two things I can think of:

1. And this is just trying to help him; he was being sarcastic and it was not taken as such. If this is the case, he probably should have ended it with a I'm kidding and why would you ask such a dumb question.

2. He is insensitive, and believes he has so much control of the Latino population that his words are gospel. I believe that to be the case, as I know many Latino white sox fans who always loved Ozzie just because they shared something with him. I elieve Ozzie took this comfort and decided it was okay just because he was Ozzie guillen and no one would have anything against it.

So maybe I misheard what Ozzie said in the press conference, but it sounded like he made a comment stating that following his comment, he said he didn't know how anyone who has done the things Castro did could have maintained power for so long.

His actual quote stated that he "respected" Fidel Castro because a lot of people have wanted to kill him for 60 years, but that he's still here (and he referred to "he" - Castro - as an expletive). That being the case, I wonder if all that Ozzie was trying to say (obviously without thinking) was that he thought it was amazing that Castro's been able to maintain power in spite of having a target on his head for nearly his entire life. The combination of Ozzie's lack of thought before speaking, as well as some (not sure how much) difficulty with English/some things (sarcasm or exaggeration, especially) are difficult to translate could, at least partially, explain this mess.

Noneck
04-10-2012, 12:25 PM
Following the money will tell how this will play out. I am waiting to see if any sponsors start to back out.

Thome25
04-10-2012, 12:33 PM
Following the money will tell how this will play out. I am waiting to see if any sponsors start to back out.

This is going to be key. The hispanic population in Miami is so huge especially the Cuban population and why in the hell would a sponsor support a brand that deeply offends a majority of it's customers in the area?

I think this is going to keep snowballing and we're going to seesome sponsors back out...

cards press box
04-10-2012, 12:34 PM
I wonder if Joey Cora will eventually manage the Marlins this season?

voodoochile
04-10-2012, 12:35 PM
I wonder if Joey Cora will eventually manage the Marlins this season?

Well he is for the next 5 games so I'm gonna go with "Yes." :tongue:

chisoxjtrain
04-10-2012, 12:44 PM
Are there any Cubans on the Marlins? I wonder how the Latino players are taking it.

tebman
04-10-2012, 12:46 PM
Guillen is a guy who's come to believe his own press clippings. He's a baseball manager of modest skill but his real gift is his personality. He's ridden that horse his whole career.

Way back, maybe it was his first year with the Sox, Steve Dahl was doing his radio show for WLS from the Sox' spring training camp. Les Grobstein was the WLS sports reporter and was interviewing players. He had a wireless microphone, which was unusual at the time. When Grobstein approached then-new shortstop Guillen, who spoke little English, Guillen thought the microphone was a gag because it had no cable attached. When he had the mic, Ozzie laughed and said "**** you! **** you!" and laughed again.

Another player who was bilingual saw what was going on and quickly took Guillen aside and told him what he'd done. Ozzie came back awkwardly apologizing in fractured English.

Then there was the Mariotti name-calling incident a few years ago. In that case Guillen's English was vastly imporoved and he knew exactly what he was doing in front of a bunch of reporters. He ended up looking bad and spent time wiping egg off his face.

This time he's really stepped in it. He'll probably survive for now, if for no other reason than the Marlins have invested too much in him to cut him loose this soon. But he might have shortened his career there. Last week's New Yorker magazine had a feature story (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/04/09/120409fa_fact_mcgrath?currentPage=all) about the Marlins, their new ballpark, and Guillen. After reading that it saddened me to see how full of himself Ozzie has become. Baseball needs characters; it always has. But Guillen's recklessness is going to bring an end to his act if he keeps talking with no boundaries.

Bobby Thigpen
04-10-2012, 12:47 PM
He probably hasn't slept since he might be a hunted man down there.

I don't wish this upon anyone, but that was one of my dad's warnings so you might not be far off.
I've always wondered this, and if this question is out of bounds per WSI code, please delete it, but if people feel so passionately about Guillen's comments about another guy that they want to kill Ozzie, why don't the get rid of the guy he made the comments about rather than the commenter?

kittle42
04-10-2012, 12:49 PM
I saw he also blamed what he said for getting lost in translation. Guy has been speaking English longer than I have.

The Sosa defense.

spawn
04-10-2012, 12:53 PM
Apparently, this isn't the first time Guillen has said he admired Castro:

http://www.suntimes.com/11806414-417/telander-ozzie-guillen-made-complimentary-remarks-about-fidel-castro-in-2008.html

Chez
04-10-2012, 12:54 PM
Ozzie has been working in the U.S. for more than 25 years -- his entire adult life. If he's using the "lost in translation" defense, he's got no one to blame but himself.

spawn
04-10-2012, 12:57 PM
I've always wondered this, and if this question is out of bounds per WSI code, please delete it, but if people feel so passionately about Guillen's comments about another guy that they want to kill Ozzie, why don't the get rid of the guy he made the comments about rather than the commenter?

Not the conversation to be had here.

MARTINMVP
04-10-2012, 12:58 PM
It never occurred to him that words can have serious consequences? I guess not, since in his case they hardly ever did.

100% correct. He never truly realizes that his words have consequences. Whether spoken, in print or on Twitter.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-10-2012, 01:01 PM
I so look forward to watching tonight's game knowing # 23 is running this team.

Noneck
04-10-2012, 01:03 PM
Apparently, this isn't the first time Guillen has said he admired Castro:

http://www.suntimes.com/11806414-417/telander-ozzie-guillen-made-complimentary-remarks-about-fidel-castro-in-2008.html

This shows that his comments he made to Time, he meant and there was no translation problem. One who lies eventually gets caught in his lies. This could be a countersink nail in his coffin.

The Racehorse
04-10-2012, 01:16 PM
Are there any Cubans on the Marlins? I wonder how the Latino players are taking it.

Gaby Sanchez is the son of Cuban exiles.


Guillen did not speak directly with Gaby Sanchez, who is the son of Cuban exiles. Sanchez said he knows Guillen doesn’t admire the Cuban despot and "it’s all drama for nothing."

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/other_mlb/view/20120409ozzie_guillen_apologizes_to_cuban_broadcas ters/

I'm glad that Ozzie didn't lose his job... :shrug:

PatK
04-10-2012, 01:18 PM
The Marlins fan base is so pathetic that this incident will probably cause an increase in attendance.

TheFrisbee
04-10-2012, 01:30 PM
So maybe I misheard what Ozzie said in the press conference, but it sounded like he made a comment stating that following his comment, he said he didn't know how anyone who has done the things Castro did could have maintained power for so long.

His actual quote stated that he "respected" Fidel Castro because a lot of people have wanted to kill him for 60 years, but that he's still here (and he referred to "he" - Castro - as an expletive). That being the case, I wonder if all that Ozzie was trying to say (obviously without thinking) was that he thought it was amazing that Castro's been able to maintain power in spite of having a target on his head for nearly his entire life. The combination of Ozzie's lack of thought before speaking, as well as some (not sure how much) difficulty with English/some things (sarcasm or exaggeration, especially) are difficult to translate could, at least partially, explain this mess.

This is what I took from it as well. I didn't see some true admiration, but just an amazement that the guy just doesn't die. In a non-serious manner, as I would assume he was speaking of this, I have to agree with that statement, but apparently you have to chose words carefully when speaking in the media. Had he just added a remark towards the end of that, to clarify then and there, this whole issue wouldn't even exist right now.

thomas35forever
04-10-2012, 01:41 PM
I'm just happy he isn't our problem any more.
That's why I'm glad I don't feel the need to pick sides on this. If he was still on the Sox, I'd probably be more conflicted, but since this is happening in Miami, I'm just going to sit back and watch it all unfold.

The Racehorse
04-10-2012, 01:46 PM
Hurt tweeted that he thinks Ozzie's apology was sincere...

Frank Thomas has gotten to known Guillen well over the years, and says everything he said at the press conference was sincere.

After spending years of my life with Ozzie Guillen I can honestly say he has never been this apologetic.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1139403-ozzie-guillen-twitter-explodes-to-press-conference-for-marlins-manager

:shrug:

mantis1212
04-10-2012, 01:52 PM
Who else thinks that KW is laughing his ass off at all of this?

The Racehorse
04-10-2012, 02:04 PM
Alexei ready to forgive Ozzie...

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/18436540/ramirez-ready-to-forgive-ozzie-for-comments-about-castro

"Apologizing is definitely a big first step," Ramirez said Monday, when asked about Guillen apologizing for his comments. "Again, I feel everyone has their opinion. But I also feel people should be forgiven. So if he's going to apologize, I feel that hopefully he'll be accepted."


:shrug:

RKMeibalane
04-10-2012, 02:18 PM
Hurt tweeted that he thinks Ozzie's apology was sincere...

Frank Thomas has gotten to known Guillen well over the years, and says everything he said at the press conference was sincere.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1139403-ozzie-guillen-twitter-explodes-to-press-conference-for-marlins-manager

:shrug:

That's just it, though. Is he sorry because of what he said, or because he got into trouble for saying it?

kittle42
04-10-2012, 02:42 PM
Alexei ready to forgive Ozzie...

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/18436540/ramirez-ready-to-forgive-ozzie-for-comments-about-castro

I think what Alexei really said was, "**** him." But it was a translation problem, you see.

Thome25
04-10-2012, 02:43 PM
That's just it, though. Is he sorry because of what he said, or because he got into trouble for saying it?

IMO his apology is all about self-preservation and is not sincere. If he truly cared about the things he says and who his words hurt then he would've learned to control his mouth a long time ago instead of sticking his foot in his mouth over and over again.

doublem23
04-10-2012, 02:52 PM
I think what Alexei really said was, "**** him." But it was a translation problem, you see.

:rolling:

IMO his apology is all about self-preservation and is not sincere. If he truly cared about the things he says and who his words hurt then he would've learned to control his mouth a long time ago instead of sticking his foot in his mouth over and over again.

I don't know if any of us can say that definitively. Ozzie will dictate how people see this apology by his future actions, though, I am personally not holding my breath he doesn't get himself in trouble again soon.

WhiteSox5187
04-10-2012, 02:58 PM
Whoever is the guy behind the Twitter handle Old Hoss Rayburn had a good take on this: "If only Ozzie Guillen had committed a minor managerial infraction like driving under the influence this could have been swept under the rug." What Ozzie said was dumb but this is really a big over reaction.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2012, 03:09 PM
Whoever is the guy behind the Twitter handle Old Hoss Rayburn had a good take on this: "If only Ozzie Guillen had committed a minor managerial infraction like driving under the influence this could have been swept under the rug." What Ozzie said was dumb but this is really a big over reaction.

Is it? Guillen made inflammatory remarks about a politically sensitive issue, while working in a market filled with people for whom the issue is extremely relevant, less than a week into his new position as Marlins manager. The average person would almost certainly lose his job over something like this, yet Guillen gets a slap on the wrist.

rockinrobin23
04-10-2012, 03:17 PM
Right or wrong Ozzie can have an opinion on the matter he was not rep the marlins during the interview. It was on his own personal time. I find it funny that people want Ozzie out for something that he said, which goes more along the line of Castro thinking than with USA ideals. i found some irony in that...maybe it's just me.

Mod Edit: And that's a discussion for Politically Incorrect - our off site political discussion forum. In fact someone else made a similar point. Please register there and I'm sure you will get responses.

WhiteSox5187
04-10-2012, 03:21 PM
Is it? Guillen made inflammatory remarks about a politically sensitive issue, while working in a market filled with people for whom the issue is extremely relevant, less than a week into his new position as Marlins manager. The average person would almost certainly lose his job over something like this, yet Guillen gets a slap on the wrist.

If the average person said this I doubt anyone would care. How many kids do you see walking around wearing a t-shirt with a picture of Che on the front? I disagree with what he said but how does this have any impact on his ability to run a ball club?

voodoochile
04-10-2012, 03:22 PM
Apparently, this isn't the first time Guillen has said he admired Castro:

http://www.suntimes.com/11806414-417/telander-ozzie-guillen-made-complimentary-remarks-about-fidel-castro-in-2008.html

If he's not fired now I'll be shocked.

cws05champ
04-10-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm just glad he is gone from here.

GoGoCrede
04-10-2012, 03:23 PM
If he's not fired now I'll be shocked.

Normally I'd agree, but the Marlins have invested so much in him already. I think it's going to come down to sponsors and how loud the backlash is. But I won't be surprised if this is all it is.

kittle42
04-10-2012, 03:39 PM
If the average person said this I doubt anyone would care. How many kids do you see walking around wearing a t-shirt with a picture of Che on the front? I disagree with what he said but how does this have any impact on his ability to run a ball club?

It pretty much doesn't, but that's irrelevant - anyone can be fired from a non-government job for saying anything. The Marlins are a business. If the manager upsets a substantial enough portion of possible customers, and firing the manager is the only thing that will satiate them, the Marlins seriously have to consider it.

fogie
04-10-2012, 03:44 PM
:D:where is the scrap, we white sox fans, put up with for years, it's just ozzie being ozzie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

spawn
04-10-2012, 03:51 PM
Whoever is the guy behind the Twitter handle Old Hoss Rayburn had a good take on this: "If only Ozzie Guillen had committed a minor managerial infraction like driving under the influence this could have been swept under the rug." What Ozzie said was dumb but this is really a big over reaction.

My take on this situation is this: is this a really big deal to me? Not at all. But then, I'm not Cuban. The reason this is an "overreaction" is because Ozzie has already demonstrated he has foot-in-mouth disease. But this time, he has done it with his home team's fanbase. He's the manager of Miami, which has a large Cuban population, and even if he doesn't admire Castro's policies, the last thing he should be doing is saying he has admiration for ANYTHING involving Castro. He doesn't think when he talks, whether he's trashing Magglio or calling Mariotti a ******. You would think he would've learned his lesson by now. It was only a matter of time before it came back to bite him in the ass.

Also, considering there is a Cuban group wanting to boycot, along with the Marlins releasing a statement disassociating themselves from his statement, along with Guillen holding a press conference, I think it's a bigger deal for them then it would've been for us if he were still managing here.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2012, 03:56 PM
If the average person said this I doubt anyone would care. How many kids do you see walking around wearing a t-shirt with a picture of Che on the front? I disagree with what he said but how does this have any impact on his ability to run a ball club?

It doesn't impact his ability to manage, but it does impact the Marlins organization. Let's not kid ourselves here. Baseball isn't about only what happens between the foul lines: it's also about selling a product and making money at the gate, and if Guillen says or does something that throws that into question, the Marlins may have no choice but to fire him.

spawn
04-10-2012, 04:00 PM
Normally I'd agree, but the Marlins have invested so much in him already. I think it's going to come down to sponsors and how loud the backlash is. But I won't be surprised if this is all it is.

Personally, I think the suspension is enough. But my thinking is he will be on a short leash.

Madvora
04-10-2012, 04:03 PM
I read this Miami Herald article this morning.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/10/2739834/guillens-act-already-wearing-thin.html

Notice the quote about his foolishness being fine in Chicago. What the hell is this guy talking about? Weren't the White Sox the team that got sick of his **** and dropped him? Weren't the Marlins the team that picked him up after already knowing all of this?

Bobby Thigpen
04-10-2012, 04:09 PM
Not the conversation to be had here.
Understood.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2012, 04:12 PM
I read this Miami Herald article this morning.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/10/2739834/guillens-act-already-wearing-thin.html

Notice the quote about his foolishness being fine in Chicago. What the hell is this guy talking about? Weren't the White Sox the team that got sick of his **** and dropped him? Weren't the Marlins the team that picked him up after already knowing all of this?

Agreed. The Marlins are getting what they paid for, and then some. They had to know about Ozzie's oral diarrhea when they offered him the job: why are they surprised that someone with a history of making insensitive comments would say something so insensitive? Granted, Ozzie's comments seem far-fetched even for him, but it's not as though we haven't seen this sort of thing before.

everafan
04-10-2012, 04:33 PM
I like watching Cowley justify what Guillen said was okay because Sean Penn does it. First off, Sean Penn doesn't answer to anyone in terms of "a boss" and secondly, no one likes Sean Penn as a person either.

Ozzie went berserk on Sean Penn for saying he supports Chavez so Ozzie should know exactly how this feels to Cubans everywhere.

TomBradley72
04-10-2012, 04:57 PM
A big part of Ozzie's appeal to the Marlins ownership was his connection and positive marketing/PR impact for the latino/hispanic community the Marlins are looking to develop as their fan base.

If you take away that appeal or it potentially even becomes a negative- what real value does Ozzie bring? He's a decent manager- but may not be skilled enough to overcome this PR disaster.

In addition, based on today's press conference, he's also clearly pretty ignorant on the subject- he stated he's "learning alot of what Castro has done" or something like that- you live in Miami for 12+ years and you're just learning now?

RockJock07
04-10-2012, 05:10 PM
I'd be surprised if he gets fired for this but what this really does is put him on egg shells for the rest of his time in Miami. If he says one thing even close to this he's done because unlike in Chicago he's really gone over the edge and people are gonna just be waiting for him to **** up again.

Flight #24
04-10-2012, 05:24 PM
OK, so Ozzie mouthed off, got slammed in the local and national press, and then suspended by the team.

Over/under on how many games before we start hearinga bout Ozzie getting pissed that the team doesn't "have his back?" Perhaps we'll start seeing some tweets from the kids.......

Tragg
04-10-2012, 05:28 PM
I wonder if our boy Cowley has chimed in on this particular issue.

russ99
04-10-2012, 05:33 PM
I wonder if our boy Cowley has chimed in on this particular issue.

:whocares

Do we really need any more fuel on this fire?

Glad Ozzie apologized. IMO that he said it isn't suspension worthy, but I can understand why the Marlins did it, even though they knew full well who they were hiring.

Sad that it seems that there's free speech except when it may upset some of the paying customers...

TheOldRoman
04-10-2012, 05:35 PM
OK, so Ozzie mouthed off, got slammed in the local and national press, and then suspended by the team.

Over/under on how many games before we start hearinga bout Ozzie getting pissed that the team doesn't "have his back?" Perhaps we'll start seeing some tweets from the kids.......The difference is, Jeff Loria doesn't think of Ozzie as a son. Ozzie could get away with a lot of crap here because Reinsy would just say, "Oh, that Ozzie! So gregarious!" The stuff with his dirtball kids in particular should have gotten him the boot beforehand. It might be overestimating Ozzie's intelligence, but I think he knew that he could get away with almost anything in Chicago and understands that it will be different in Miami. I imagine he will be more cautious with the Marlins. Still, if his kids go off spouting inside information about team issues again, it might be the end of him.

TheOldRoman
04-10-2012, 05:38 PM
Sad that it seems that there's free speech except when it may upset some of the paying customers...Not really. Ozzie is constitutionally protected to speak freely without risk of being arrested for doing so. That doesn't apply to employers. If any high profile employee of any business made comments which were overtly offensive to the customers, he/she would be disciplined similarly.

wassagstdu
04-10-2012, 05:44 PM
How very stupid to say what Ozzie said, and how stupid to think it. Also very self-destructive. I am not Cuban, but I have been a fan of Ozzie's for a long time, and I feel betrayed too.

Tragg
04-10-2012, 05:46 PM
Not really. Ozzie is constitutionally protected to speak freely without risk of being arrested for doing so. That doesn't apply to employers. If any high profile employee of any business made comments which were overtly offensive to the customers, he/she would be disciplined similarly.
Exactly.
"Free speech" is a protection from government. That's it.

spawn
04-10-2012, 05:47 PM
I wonder if our boy Cowley has chimed in on this particular issue.

He has. He's been his biggest defender. Shocking!!!

WhiteSox5187
04-10-2012, 05:51 PM
My take on this situation is this: is this a really big deal to me? Not at all. But then, I'm not Cuban. The reason this is an "overreaction" is because Ozzie has already demonstrated he has foot-in-mouth disease. But this time, he has done it with his home team's fanbase. He's the manager of Miami, which has a large Cuban population, and even if he doesn't admire Castro's policies, the last thing he should be doing is saying he has admiration for ANYTHING involving Castro. He doesn't think when he talks, whether he's trashing Magglio or calling Mariotti a ******. You would think he would've learned his lesson by now. It was only a matter of time before it came back to bite him in the ass.

Also, considering there is a Cuban group wanting to boycot, along with the Marlins releasing a statement disassociating themselves from his statement, along with Guillen holding a press conference, I think it's a bigger deal for them then it would've been for us if he were still managing here.

I am not in Miami so I can't say for certain what the temperature of the Cuban population in Miami actually feels about this as opposed to what the press is reporting but there is always a group somewhere that is wanting and willing to lead a boycott. The (and forgive me for not knowing the exact name of the group) gay and lesbian groups in Chicago tried to lead boycotts of the White Sox after the Mariotti incident.

kittle42
04-10-2012, 06:17 PM
The (and forgive me for not knowing the exact name of the group) gay and lesbian groups in Chicago tried to lead boycotts of the White Sox after the Mariotti incident.

Doesn't most of Chicago effectively boycott the Sox already? :)

WhiteSox5187
04-10-2012, 06:22 PM
Doesn't most of Chicago effectively boycott the Sox already? :)

Unfortunately upper management can't seem to get the message...

RKMeibalane
04-10-2012, 06:52 PM
Unfortunately upper management can't seem to get the message...

:reinsy

"Just win and lose with glee, and never complain."

TommyJohn
04-10-2012, 06:57 PM
That's great, Jay. I ordered my fries like 15 minutes ago. Where are they?

:rolling::rolling:

I forgot that he isn't working anywhere, is he?

DickAllen72
04-10-2012, 07:49 PM
So maybe I misheard what Ozzie said in the press conference, but it sounded like he made a comment stating that following his comment, he said he didn't know how anyone who has done the things Castro did could have maintained power for so long.

His actual quote stated that he "respected" Fidel Castro because a lot of people have wanted to kill him for 60 years, but that he's still here (and he referred to "he" - Castro - as an expletive). That being the case, I wonder if all that Ozzie was trying to say (obviously without thinking) was that he thought it was amazing that Castro's been able to maintain power in spite of having a target on his head for nearly his entire life. The combination of Ozzie's lack of thought before speaking, as well as some (not sure how much) difficulty with English/some things (sarcasm or exaggeration, especially) are difficult to translate could, at least partially, explain this mess.
John Kruk was on ESPN 1000 yesterday and said that he recently asked Ozzie who should throw out the first pitch at the new stadium in Miami and Ozzie "joked" that Fidel Castro should throw out the first pitch and Hugo Chavez should be the catcher.

Ozzie seems to have an obsession talking about Castro lately. The question is, "Why?" It would be like someone who has just been hired to work in a predominantly Jewish community suddenly having the urge to keep talking about Hitler.

The Racehorse
04-10-2012, 08:09 PM
As a Sox fan, it's a little embarressing to see people so easily forget what Ozzie accomplished...

No one will ever deny that Ozzie says allot of dumb things, and that his profane rants during his time in Chicago grew tiresome.... however, that said...

Ozzie managed the team to its first World Series Championship in 88 years. A fan base that shares a city with another team that hasn't won in over 100 years might want to repeat that last sentence, and, at a minimum, be mindful of that.

One of the best ways to guage the level of seriousness of any controversy is, in my opinion, to look at what the peers are saying...

1. Frank Thomas thinks Ozzie's apology was sincere (again, allot of you guys might want to say that last sentence out loud a few times). If the greatest White Sox player of all time thinks Ozzie was sincere, then that means something.

2. Alexei Ramirez, a Cuban defector, is ready to forgive Ozzie. Not much to elaborate on that one since it speaks for itself.

3. Marlin first baseman Gaby Sanchez, who is the son of exiled Cubans, thinks "it's all drama for nothing". Thats a strong statement from G Sanchez.

4. A little while ago I heard Juan Gutierrez on ESPN radio say that he heard Ozzie's apology and he felt that Ozzie's apology in Spanish was very heartfelt and convincing, though he also admitted Ozzie's apology in english was not as good (but still pretty good)...

5. Which leads me to the "lost in translation" thing. I speak only english. But I do remember while in the Air Force a latino buddy (Puerto Rican) told me a story about being on temporary duty to Colombia and as he was talking Spanish to some high ranking Colombian officer, he offended the officer because my buddy accentuated (my word) a sentence with an accent that the officer found insulting (not all Spanish is exactly the same - they're more Spanish dialects than you can shake a stick at)...

If you go to babel fish-dot-com and translate english to french, the translation isn't precise (I tried this while overseas with a French corporal who I was responsible for and who knew very little english).

If Ozzie says his words got somewhat lost in translation, I think you got to take that at face value (Juan Gutierrez, a latino, backs that up with his comparison of the english & spanish apologies). Afterall, english is not Ozzie's first language and trying find the exact words you want in a second language is entirely believable.

Lastly, if Ozzie ends up getting fired, so be it. He said a stupid thing, but then again, that's not saying much.

I hope he doesn't get fired because even dummies deserve another chance.

doublem23
04-10-2012, 08:41 PM
**** Ozzie

GoGoCrede
04-10-2012, 08:51 PM
As a Sox fan, it's a little embarressing to see people so easily forget what Ozzie accomplished...

No one will ever deny that Ozzie says allot of dumb things, and that his profane rants during his time in Chicago grew tiresome.... however, that said...

Ozzie managed the team to its first World Series Championship in 88 years. A fan base that shares a city with another team that hasn't won in over 100 years might want to repeat that last sentence, and, at a minimum, be mindful of that.

One of the best ways to guage the level of seriousness of any controversy is, in my opinion, to look at what the peers are saying...

1. Frank Thomas thinks Ozzie's apology was sincere (again, allot of you guys might want to say that last sentence out loud a few times). If the greatest White Sox player of all time thinks Ozzie was sincere, then that means something.

2. Alexei Ramirez, a Cuban defector, is ready to forgive Ozzie. Not much to elaborate on that one since it speaks for itself.

3. Marlin first baseman Gaby Sanchez, who is the son of exiled Cubans, thinks "it's all drama for nothing". Thats a strong statement from G Sanchez.

4. A little while ago I heard Juan Gutierrez on ESPN radio say that he heard Ozzie's apology and he felt that Ozzie's apology in Spanish was very heartfelt and convincing, though he also admitted Ozzie's apology in english was not as good (but still pretty good)...

5. Which leads me to the "lost in translation" thing. I speak only english. But I do remember while in the Air Force a latino buddy (Puerto Rican) told me a story about being on temporary duty to Colombia and as he was talking Spanish to some high ranking Colombian officer, he offended the officer because my buddy accentuated (my word) a sentence with an accent that the officer found insulting (not all Spanish is exactly the same - they're more Spanish dialects than you can shake a stick at)...

If you go to babel fish-dot-com and translate english to french, the translation isn't precise (I tried this while overseas with a French corporal who I was responsible for and who knew very little english).

If Ozzie says his words got somewhat lost in translation, I think you got to take that at face value (Juan Gutierrez, a latino, backs that up with his comparison of the english & spanish apologies). Afterall, english is not Ozzie's first language and trying find the exact words you want in a second language is entirely believable.

Lastly, if Ozzie ends up getting fired, so be it. He said a stupid thing, but then again, that's not saying much.

I hope he doesn't get fired because even dummies deserve another chance.

I don't know anyone here who is not appreciative of Ozzie's efforts in 2005. But that doesn't mean people can't still look at his faults without forgetting what he's done for us.

I really don't think the Marlins organization should care too much what pros like Alexei think, because at the end of the day, they're not affiliated with the Marlins in any way (EDIT - Oops, except for the one you mentioned. My bad). The ones who matter are part of the Cuban population who are buying tickets to Marlins games and threatening to boycott. Those are the people the Marlins' higher-ups should be concerned about. And just because Alexei and a few other Cubans aren't offended, doesn't mean plenty of Cubans aren't either.

I think it's a valid point that sometimes Ozzie's words get lost in translation. I also think it's a valid point that he's spoken English for many years. Yes, his written English isn't great, but he speaks it okay. But anyway, I think that's something we'll never really know (the extent of his true English abilities, I mean).

Woofer
04-10-2012, 08:58 PM
I loved Ozzie and all he brought to us Sox fans, but I grew tired of all of his baggage. He's Floridas problem now. Why can't the guy learn to say no comment?

spawn
04-10-2012, 09:12 PM
As a Sox fan, it's a little embarressing to see people so easily forget what Ozzie accomplished...

No one will ever deny that Ozzie says allot of dumb things, and that his profane rants during his time in Chicago grew tiresome.... however, that said...

Ozzie managed the team to its first World Series Championship in 88 years. A fan base that shares a city with another team that hasn't won in over 100 years might want to repeat that last sentence, and, at a minimum, be mindful of that.

One of the best ways to guage the level of seriousness of any controversy is, in my opinion, to look at what the peers are saying...

1. Frank Thomas thinks Ozzie's apology was sincere (again, allot of you guys might want to say that last sentence out loud a few times). If the greatest White Sox player of all time thinks Ozzie was sincere, then that means something.

2. Alexei Ramirez, a Cuban defector, is ready to forgive Ozzie. Not much to elaborate on that one since it speaks for itself.

3. Marlin first baseman Gaby Sanchez, who is the son of exiled Cubans, thinks "it's all drama for nothing". Thats a strong statement from G Sanchez.

4. A little while ago I heard Juan Gutierrez on ESPN radio say that he heard Ozzie's apology and he felt that Ozzie's apology in Spanish was very heartfelt and convincing, though he also admitted Ozzie's apology in english was not as good (but still pretty good)...

5. Which leads me to the "lost in translation" thing. I speak only english. But I do remember while in the Air Force a latino buddy (Puerto Rican) told me a story about being on temporary duty to Colombia and as he was talking Spanish to some high ranking Colombian officer, he offended the officer because my buddy accentuated (my word) a sentence with an accent that the officer found insulting (not all Spanish is exactly the same - they're more Spanish dialects than you can shake a stick at)...

If you go to babel fish-dot-com and translate english to french, the translation isn't precise (I tried this while overseas with a French corporal who I was responsible for and who knew very little english).

If Ozzie says his words got somewhat lost in translation, I think you got to take that at face value (Juan Gutierrez, a latino, backs that up with his comparison of the english & spanish apologies). Afterall, english is not Ozzie's first language and trying find the exact words you want in a second language is entirely believable.

Lastly, if Ozzie ends up getting fired, so be it. He said a stupid thing, but then again, that's not saying much.

I hope he doesn't get fired because even dummies deserve another chance.
No one here has forgotten what ozzie helped the team accomplish in 2005. However, that doesn't excuse him from constantly sticking his foot in his mouth. If it wasn't for 2005, he wouldn't have gotten as much of a pass from White Sox fans as he did. The fact of the matter is the Marlins opened a new ballpark, have a new manager that happens to be Hispanic in a city that has a very large Hispanic population, and he goes and pisses off that population and fanbase by making a stupid comment about a brutal dictator these people escaped from, something he should've known better to do. Now this team is in full damage control, and it's barely a week into the season. Will this blow over? Probably. Was his apology heartfelt? Maybe. Only Ozzie and those close to him know for sure. But he deserves all the criticism he's receiving.

TDog
04-10-2012, 09:58 PM
No one here has forgotten what ozzie helped the team accomplish in 2005. However, that doesn't excuse him from constantly sticking his foot in his mouth. If it wasn't for 2005, he wouldn't have gotten as much of a pass from White Sox fans as he did. The fact of the matter is the Marlins opened a new ballpark, have a new manager that happens to be Hispanic in a city that has a very large Hispanic population, and he goes and pisses off that population and fanbase by making a stupid comment about a brutal dictator these people escaped from, something he should've known better to do. Now this team is in full damage control, and it's barely a week into the season. Will this blow over? Probably. Was his apology heartfelt? Maybe. Only Ozzie and those close to him know for sure. But he deserves all the criticism he's receiving.

I have never cared what people said as long as the job they were doing wasn't connected with what they said. I don't even care if people disagree with my opinions as long as violence isn't attached, but I am the exception. Guillen deserves some criticism, but the people criticizing him deserve some criticism, too.

From a poly sci perspective, there was nothing at all wrong with what Guillen said. It's the sort of thing George Patton or Douglas McArthur might have said. Excluding the politics, who cannot be impressed with Castro's ability to stay in power. What Guillen said falls well short of Marge Schott saying Hitler did some good things, but when you mention Castro in South Florida, no one is interested in your point. Of course, Patton and McArthur were punished for some of their comments, and Guillen picked absolutely the wrong place and time to say what he said. Going with J. Edgar Hoover would have been more tactful.

Not that I am comparing Guillen to Patton or McArthur, although people might glean that out of what I wrote instead of trying considering my point. It wouldn't be the first time. Still, if I remember the William Manchester biography correctly, McArthur was a light-hitting shortstop at West Point.

Brian26
04-10-2012, 10:07 PM
How very stupid to say what Ozzie said, and how stupid to think it. Also very self-destructive. I am not Cuban, but I have been a fan of Ozzie's for a long time, and I feel betrayed too.

That's the perfect definition of what is happening right now. It's a complete self-destruct on his part, four games into the season, when he was hand-chosen for this job possibly as far back as three years ago with secret under-the-table dealings while burning just about every bridge he could on his way out of Chicago. Only an idiot would screw this up this early. I'd be dishonest if I didn't say the entire scenario is highly entertaining.


I'm not convinced he won't be forced to resign before the end of the week anyway.

RKMeibalane
04-10-2012, 10:18 PM
That's the perfect definition of what is happening right now. It's a complete self-destruct on his part, four games into the season, when he was hand-chosen for this job possibly as far back as three years ago with secret under-the-table dealings while burning just about every bridge he could on his way out of Chicago. Only an idiot would screw this up this early. I'd be dishonest if I didn't say the entire scenario is highly entertaining.

Ozzie is an overgrown child, and as such, doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. Do I think he was trying to be hurtful with his comments? No, but that doesn't mean that they weren't. As others have alluded to in this thread, I think part of the problem with Ozzie is that he was never held accountable for what he said by Sox management. On the contrary, Reinsdorf excused his behavior on the basis that Ozzie was only being himself, and never took the time to explain that he couldn't continue with this pattern of behavior. Now, less than one week into the regular season, he finds himself in hot water because the Marlins aren't going to laugh off his mistakes the way the Sox did.

Ozzie says that he's sorry for what happened. If that's the case, why does he keep making the same mistakes?

I'm not convinced he won't be forced to resign before the end of the week anyway.

More and more, I think this five-game suspension is simply the Marlins brass buying time, so that they can figure a way out of this mess, and perhaps find someone who can replace him as manager: once that's done, he's done in Miami.

TomBradley72
04-10-2012, 11:11 PM
This time he's really stepped in it. He'll probably survive for now, if for no other reason than the Marlins have invested too much in him to cut him loose this soon. But he might have shortened his career there. Last week's New Yorker magazine had a feature story (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/04/09/120409fa_fact_mcgrath?currentPage=all) about the Marlins, their new ballpark, and Guillen. After reading that it saddened me to see how full of himself Ozzie has become. Baseball needs characters; it always has. But Guillen's recklessness is going to bring an end to his act if he keeps talking with no boundaries.

Did anyone else read the linked "feature story"?

His comment about his wife to one of his son's is one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard.

The thing about the Castro comments is that this is not a one time, "lost in translation" slip up- between the Time article, a Mens Journal article a few years ago, the comment he made to John Kruk- it's a pattern that is some combination of insensitivity and ignorance to one of the most significant communities in his home town and for his employer.

I loved Ozzie from his first game in a WSox uniform in 1985- and will always appreciate the 2005 World Series championship.

But he's become a pretty disgusting human being in my opinion.

GlassSox
04-10-2012, 11:37 PM
**** Ozzie

:thumbsup:

Lip Man 1
04-11-2012, 12:00 AM
Blames media (including himself) for being partially responsible for what Guillen has become. Interesting read:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/ct-spt-0411-haugh-chicago--20120411,0,2907667.column

Lip

RKMeibalane
04-11-2012, 12:28 AM
Blames media (including himself) for being partially responsible for what Guillen has become. Interesting read:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/ct-spt-0411-haugh-chicago--20120411,0,2907667.column

Lip

He raises an interesting point, in that part of what Guillen has become is the result of the media being so eager to copy down everything he says. There would be no story about what Guillen said if there weren't people willing to write about it.

Having said that, Guillen's behavior is just another example of man who doesn't have enough common sense to keep his mouth shut. A fool speaks because he has to say something, and Guillen just couldn't wait to share what was on his mind, making people wonder if he'd lost it.

I stand by what I said earlier: this suspension is the Marlins way of buying themselves time as they decide on Ozzie's future. Loria may be an ass, but he's not stupid. The backlash from this has forced his hand. Keeping Ozzie on the sidelines this week assures the fans that Marlins are taking this seriously, and it allows Loria to work back-channels to find a replacement for Guillen.

:jerry

"I'm available!"

:burly

"Oh, no..."

Ozzie "bit off more than he could chew" this time. He's gone.

ws05champs
04-11-2012, 02:13 AM
If the average person said this I doubt anyone would care. How many kids do you see walking around wearing a t-shirt with a picture of Che on the front? I disagree with what he said but how does this have any impact on his ability to run a ball club?
Interesting that you brought up Che T-shirts. When I was in high school, a good friend of mine was a Cuban exile. He saw another kid wearing a Che t-shirt and it resulted in a vicious shouting match that I thought was going to end in a fight. Afterwards my friend said to me something to the effect that "Che was killing my relatives in Cuba and that ****er has the nerve to wear a Che T-shirt in front of me?" That is how deep the hatred for Castro's regime can be with Cuban exiles.

If the primary jobs of the manger is to make up the line-up card, change pitchers and to deal with the press, Ozzie had an epic fail in dealing with the press on this one. Why he feels a need to discuss things other than baseball is beyond me. Glad this isn't the Sox problem.

The Racehorse
04-11-2012, 07:10 AM
No one here has forgotten what ozzie helped the team accomplish in 2005. However, that doesn't excuse him from constantly sticking his foot in his mouth.

By the time I brought up 2005, which no one else had yet to mention, the thread was pretty far along. Also, how hard is it to say: "Ozzie, thanks for 2005, but everyone is tired of your big mouth"?

By the way, as another separate subtext to all this, a good example of a missplaced opinion is Bob Brenly, who said last night during the Brewers/Cubs game that the 5 game suspension was a slap on the wrist, and used Marge Schott's year long suspension due to her comments about Hitler as justification of his remarks about Ozzie. Brenly is forgetting that MLB Commissionor Bud Selig visited Cuba in 1999, and sat next to Fidel Castro as they took in a baseball game. MLB can't suspend Ozzie for any real length of time due to his dopey comments about Castro when the Commisionor of MLB literally rubbed elbows with Castro... though I do admit that the Marlins can fire Ozzie if they choose to go that route.

If people want to pile on Ozzie and make fun of him at his expense, sure I get that. But at the same time it's pretty hilarious too me that Frank Freaking Thomas came to Ozzie's defense, only then see Sox fans totally dismiss what Frank is saying.

And now Robin is giving support to Ozzie...

As Ozzie Guillen tried to explain his way out of another mess he created with his mouth, Chicago's new manager felt compassion for his predecessor.

Robin Ventura watched and wished the best for Guillen.

''It's a tough day for him,'' Ventura said Tuesday, hours after Guillen apologized in South Florida for comments lauding Cuban dictator Fidel Castro, remarks that led some to call for his firing. ''He's a friend, so it was not easy to watch. He looked sincere and meant it.''

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/white-sox-watch-former-manager-232131118--mlb.html?asid=4ef25834&ugccmtnav=v1%2Fcomments%2Fcontext%2Ff2aac989-c839-3347-a475-b5fd16a6b6c7%2Fcomments%3Fcount%3D20%26sortBy%3Dla test

Same article mentions Gordon Beckham supporting Ozzie...

Most of Chicago's players declined to talk about Guillen's situation.

One willing to talk was infielder Gordon Beckham, who said most White Sox players believe Guillen's true feelings did not come out in the Time magazine article in which he said he loves Castro and respects the retired Cuban leader for staying in power so long.

''You feel for Ozzie,'' said Beckham, who played three seasons for Guillen. ''I think all of the guys in this clubhouse knew what he meant when he said it. It was like, this guy (Castro) has had people trying to get him, take a shot at him, and he's lasted 60 years. Sometimes Ozzie says more than he should.''

If people here want to call Ozzie an idiot for saying what he said, (again) that's really not saying much. I just though Sox fans here would be a little more thoughful.

doublem23
04-11-2012, 07:26 AM
Does anyone really need to express that they're appreciative of Ozzie for 2005? Isn't that naturally assumed at this point? We're obviously all thankful that Ozzie was the right man for the job in 2005 but that doesn't give him a free pass to be an ******* for the rest of his life. If people want to forgive him, they can. If they want to be mad, they can. I personally don't care so much about his comments, I just like watching him squirm under the limelight.

And please, get over yourself. Just because you have a different opinion than other people in this thread doesn't mean your response is any more meaningful or thoughtful. Oh, goodie, Ozzie is being defended by other members of the Major League Baseball Good Old Boys club. He's also being condemned by hundreds, if not thousands, of Cuban exiles in America, so I'd say it's at best a wash.

Ozzie was the man in 2005, but he's not bigger than the Sox, and he turned around and stabbed this team in the back last year. Karma's a bitch, ain't it?

wassagstdu
04-11-2012, 08:17 AM
Maybe his friend Zambrano can straighten Ozzie out.

TomBradley72
04-11-2012, 08:41 AM
By the time I brought up 2005, which no one else had yet to mention, the thread was pretty far along. Also, how hard is it to say: "Ozzie, thanks for 2005, but everyone is tired of your big mouth"?

By the way, as another separate subtext to all this, a good example of a missplaced opinion is Bob Brenly, who said last night during the Brewers/Cubs game that the 5 game suspension was a slap on the wrist, and used Marge Schott's year long suspension due to her comments about Hitler as justification of his remarks about Ozzie. Brenly is forgetting that MLB Commissionor Bud Selig visited Cuba in 1999, and sat next to Fidel Castro as they took in a baseball game. MLB can't suspend Ozzie for any real length of time due to his dopey comments about Castro when the Commisionor of MLB literally rubbed elbows with Castro... though I do admit that the Marlins can fire Ozzie if they choose to go that route.

If people want to pile on Ozzie and make fun of him at his expense, sure I get that. But at the same time it's pretty hilarious too me that Frank Freaking Thomas came to Ozzie's defense, only then see Sox fans totally dismiss what Frank is saying.

And now Robin is giving support to Ozzie...



http://sports.yahoo.com/news/white-sox-watch-former-manager-232131118--mlb.html?asid=4ef25834&ugccmtnav=v1%2Fcomments%2Fcontext%2Ff2aac989-c839-3347-a475-b5fd16a6b6c7%2Fcomments%3Fcount%3D20%26sortBy%3Dla test

Same article mentions Gordon Beckham supporting Ozzie...



If people here want to call Ozzie an idiot for saying what he said, (again) that's really not saying much. I just though Sox fans here would be a little more thoughful.

It's great that Ozzie's former teamates and players are supporting him- I'm not really sure how relevent that is- as far as the current Marlins player's comments- what is he going to say? rip on the guy that might be his manager for another 4 years? Not that relevent either.

What the Miami based Cuban American community thinks of all this is very relevent, especially when he was brought in as a way to market the team to that community (latino/hispanic overall)- what his former White Sox teammates/players think- not so much.

Hitmen77
04-11-2012, 09:21 AM
That's the perfect definition of what is happening right now. It's a complete self-destruct on his part, four games into the season, when he was hand-chosen for this job possibly as far back as three years ago with secret under-the-table dealings while burning just about every bridge he could on his way out of Chicago. Only an idiot would screw this up this early. I'd be dishonest if I didn't say the entire scenario is highly entertaining.

I'm not convinced he won't be forced to resign before the end of the week anyway.

This time, he doesn't have Reinsdorf's "loyalty-to-a-fault" to save the day for him. He also doesn't have a history with Marlins fans as a "fan favorite" and WS winner to burn through before they've had enough of him.

Unlike in Chicago, he's not going to get away with pissing people off for years while a team underperforms before his tenure ends. I just never would have guessed he'd be in danger of losing his job less than a week into the season. :o:

I personally don't think what he said about Castro was so horrible. But Miami is the wrong place to be saying anything even remotely positive about Castro as many there and their families suffered under his dictatorship.

Does anyone really need to express that they're appreciative of Ozzie for 2005? Isn't that naturally assumed at this point? We're obviously all thankful that Ozzie was the right man for the job in 2005 but that doesn't give him a free pass to be an ******* for the rest of his life. If people want to forgive him, they can. If they want to be mad, they can. I personally don't care so much about his comments, I just like watching him squirm under the limelight.

And please, get over yourself. Just because you have a different opinion than other people in this thread doesn't mean your response is any more meaningful or thoughtful. Oh, goodie, Ozzie is being defended by other members of the Major League Baseball Good Old Boys club. He's also being condemned by hundreds, if not thousands, of Cuban exiles in America, so I'd say it's at best a wash.

Ozzie was the man in 2005, but he's not bigger than the Sox, and he turned around and stabbed this team in the back last year. Karma's a bitch, ain't it?

Thank you! Trying to make this discussion into a "Sox fans don't appreciate 2005" discussion is :bs:

The Racehorse
04-11-2012, 09:31 AM
It's great that Ozzie's former teamates and players are supporting him- I'm not really sure how relevent that is- as far as the current Marlins player's comments- what is he going to say? rip on the guy that might be his manager for another 4 years? Not that relevent either.

The greatest White Sox player of all time not relevant? The current manager of the Sox not relevant? The second baseman and shortstop of the Sox who both played for Guillen not relevant? A son of a Cuban exile not relevant? C'mon... these guys matter.

I'm a big enough person to agree that, yeah sure, it's probably best that if Ozzie's dumb comments upset or insulted Marlin first baseman Gaby Sanchez that Sanchez would likely keep his opinions to himself.

But Sanchez didn't do that. And because of who Sanchez is and his own background, it makes it all the more relevant considering Gaby Sanchez also has to walk streets of "Little Havana". Not being worried about a backlash from your community matters.

TomBradley72
04-11-2012, 09:47 AM
The greatest White Sox player of all time not relevant? The current manager of the Sox not relevant? The second baseman and shortstop of the Sox who both played for Guillen not relevant? A son of a Cuban exile not relevant? C'mon... these guys matter.

I'm a big enough person to agree that, yeah sure, it's probably best that if Ozzie's dumb comments upset or insulted Marlin first baseman Gaby Sanchez that Sanchez would likely keep his opinions to himself.

But Sanchez didn't do that. And because of who Sanchez is and his own background, it makes it all the more relevant considering Gaby Sanchez also has to walk streets of "Little Havana". Not being worried about a backlash from your community matters.

I just disagree- what Ozzie's cronies in Chicago think- just doesn't really matter- just because Frank was a great hitter for the WSox doesn't make his support more relevent, Beckham is just not relevent- in really any way, Ventura was answering a question- I would be shocked if Robin would say anything else and get pulled into this b.s..

The Cuban Americans/Miamians could give a **** about what current/former White Sox players think about all this.

Gaby Sanchez will NEVER come out and criticize Ozzie as long as Ozzie is his manager- the quotes I've seen from him are carefully worded around "it's good that he's apologizing, I want to focus on baseball, etc."

Senerch23
04-11-2012, 09:49 AM
The greatest White Sox player of all time not relevant? The current manager of the Sox not relevant? The second baseman and shortstop of the Sox who both played for Guillen not relevant? A son of a Cuban exile not relevant? C'mon... these guys matter.

I'm a big enough person to agree that, yeah sure, it's probably best that if Ozzie's dumb comments upset or insulted Marlin first baseman Gaby Sanchez that Sanchez would likely keep his opinions to himself.

But Sanchez didn't do that. And because of who Sanchez is and his own background, it makes it all the more relevant considering Gaby Sanchez also has to walk streets of "Little Havana". Not being worried about a backlash from your community matters.

Who gives a **** who is supporting Ozzie right now? He said something really stupid and he deserves all the backlash he is receiving.

The Racehorse
04-11-2012, 09:49 AM
Does anyone really need to express that they're appreciative of Ozzie for 2005? Isn't that naturally assumed at this point? We're obviously all thankful that Ozzie was the right man for the job in 2005 but that doesn't give him a free pass to be an ******* for the rest of his life. If people want to forgive him, they can. If they want to be mad, they can. I personally don't care so much about his comments, I just like watching him squirm under the limelight.

And please, get over yourself. Just because you have a different opinion than other people in this thread doesn't mean your response is any more meaningful or thoughtful. Oh, goodie, Ozzie is being defended by other members of the Major League Baseball Good Old Boys club. He's also being condemned by hundreds, if not thousands, of Cuban exiles in America, so I'd say it's at best a wash.

Ozzie was the man in 2005, but he's not bigger than the Sox, and he turned around and stabbed this team in the back last year. Karma's a bitch, ain't it?

You like watching people squirm?

I should get over myself?

My lone support for Ozzie in this thread isn't any more meaningful/thoughtful than the opposite view that is nothing more than "**** you Ozzie"?

Karma's a bitch?

You're being ridiculous on many levels.

Some managers or players who win a World Series in other cities (especially those cities who haven't won in decades) probably DO get a lifetime free pass. Why wouldn't that apply to us Sox fans? Eighty eight years is a long time. How can that not be taken into account when the team right next door to the Sox haven't won in over 100 years?

It can be argued that the 2003 & 2004 Sox teams were better on paper than the 2005 team that won it all. But we all know that winninng the world series isn't done on paper. Teams have to managed and led on the field. Having zero gratitude to the person who is obviously an obnoxious loudmouth yet led the team to winning a world series is kind of thoughtless. Ever heard of Leo Durocher???

But don't worry. I get all this. You win.

doublem23
04-11-2012, 09:55 AM
You're being ridiculous on many levels.


No more ridiculous than saying, "well Frank Thomas and Gordon Beckham says it's all good, so everyone can chill out now."

You like watching people squirm?

I like watching *******s who get caught up in their own web of ego and lies squirm when it caves in on them, yes.

October26
04-11-2012, 10:07 AM
How very stupid to say what Ozzie said, and how stupid to think it. Also very self-destructive. I am not Cuban, but I have been a fan of Ozzie's for a long time, and I feel betrayed too.


I have read every comment in this thread and respect the viewpoints expressed here regardless of whether or not they are the same as mine. I want to thank you because your post helped me identify what I am currently feeling on two fronts: betrayed.

As a Sox fan: My family and I have been huge fans of Ozzie since we first saw him as a young, skinny kid with the White Sox back in the mid 80's. We loved Ozzie as a player and we supported Ozzie when he returned in 2004 to manage the White Sox. Like all Sox fans, we were delighted to see him lead the White Sox to their 2005 World Series Championship, something that we will never forget. Ozzie's success was our joy, because he had fulfilled our dream of seeing the Sox win the World Series. In addition, Ozzie was living the dream of coming to America and living a better life, a goal that my family and I also shared. As time passed, however, we saw that Ozzie's ego took hold of his life and HE had to be the center of attention at all times. In recent years, Ozzie's mouth knew no limits and he lost the respect of many Sox fans. Ozzie was not held accountable for anything he did or said. Last fall, we witnessed the charade that was Ozzie's departure to the Marlins. This was the second time that Ozzie had left the Sox and, for me, it opened up old wounds from when he had left as a player. I recognized, however, that it was time for Ozzie to go. I wished Ozzie well and was ready to move on to a new chapter in White Sox history.

As a Cuban-American: Fast-forwarding to April 2012, I was shocked and outraged when I heard Ozzie’s comments. Why would he make such comments, I wondered? By the way, I remember when Ozzie made similar comments in 2008 (Telander) and was upset then. My family and I discussed it then, but since it received zero national attention, there was nowhere to go and nothing to say. The difference now, of course, is that the Miami Cuban-American community is very large, so the impact was heard round the world (unlike when Ozzie made his comments in Chicago in 2008). I found it interesting that Harold Reynolds of the MLB network stated yesterday that Ozzie’s comments had opened a deep wound in the Miami community because of the insensitivity that Ozzie had displayed by making those statements. And this is when I realized that once again, I felt betrayed. Ozzie is an adult and he knew exactly what he was saying when he made his comments. Because there were never any consequences for his actions while he was in Chicago, Ozzie thought the same rules would apply in Miami. And sorry, but I cannot accept the “I meant this is Spanish but it came out differently in English excuse.” Ozzie has been living in Miami for over 10 years and he knows that this issue is a “hot topic” in the neighborhoods and cafecitos all around Little Havana and elsewhere in Miami. Ozzie is a very social person (he would often be seen at restaurants around Chicago). I’m sure he is very social in Miami as well. He disrespected himself and his fans by making such a ridiculous statement. Yesterday, almost every text I received from my family members and friends in Chicago and Miami asked the same question: “Is Ozzie crazy or stupid or both?”

Now, 24 hours later, the buzz seems to have died down and I believe that Ozzie will survive this. As others have said, however, he will be on a very short leash. For Ozzie’s sake, I hope that he learns to think before he speaks and be more respectful towards others.

TomBradley72
04-11-2012, 10:08 AM
You like watching people squirm?

I should get over myself?

My lone support for Ozzie in this thread isn't any more meaningful/thoughtful than the opposite view that is nothing more than "**** you Ozzie"?

Karma's a bitch?

You're being ridiculous on many levels.

Some managers or players who win a World Series in other cities (especially those cities who haven't won in decades) probably DO get a lifetime free pass. Why wouldn't that apply to us Sox fans? Eighty eight years is a long time. How can that not be taken into account when the team right next door to the Sox haven't won in over 100 years?

It can be argued that the 2003 & 2004 Sox teams were better on paper than the 2005 team that won it all. But we all know that winninng the world series isn't done on paper. Teams have to managed and led on the field. Having zero gratitude to the person who is obviously an obnoxious loudmouth yet led the team to winning a world series is kind of thoughtless. Ever heard of Leo Durocher???

But don't worry. I get all this. You win.

I think most of us did give Ozzie close to a "free pass" because of the World Series in 2005- that's why we were patient through 2009, 2010 and 2011- but if you're asking for a "free pass" for a guy who said what he said (multiple times) and deeply offended one of the most important communities for his current employer- I just don't know if there is precedent for that.

Francona brought multiple championships to Boston- I don't recall him ever spewing the sewage coming out of Guillen's mouth including his pouting and other b.s. in 2011.

Geez- Guillen is quoted in the New Yorker as telling one his son's how hard he is going to **** his mother that night- the guy is going off the rails- and for me it's even more stark in contrast to our new manager and how he handles himself.

Viva Medias B's
04-11-2012, 10:09 AM
The question at this point is whether certain people will let this controversy die.

soltrain21
04-11-2012, 10:11 AM
The greatest White Sox player of all time not relevant? The current manager of the Sox not relevant? The second baseman and shortstop of the Sox who both played for Guillen not relevant? A son of a Cuban exile not relevant? C'mon... these guys matter.

I'm a big enough person to agree that, yeah sure, it's probably best that if Ozzie's dumb comments upset or insulted Marlin first baseman Gaby Sanchez that Sanchez would likely keep his opinions to himself.

But Sanchez didn't do that. And because of who Sanchez is and his own background, it makes it all the more relevant considering Gaby Sanchez also has to walk streets of "Little Havana". Not being worried about a backlash from your community matters.

Matter when it comes to baseball, yes. They don't mean **** when talking about how Ozzie made one of the stupidest comments he has ever made.

Railsplitter
04-11-2012, 10:16 AM
My commitment to the right of free speech says the suspension is rediculous, but when you consider expressing admiration for Adolf Hitler is career suicide in any profession, Ozzie is getting off easily on this one.

doublem23
04-11-2012, 10:19 AM
My commitment to the right of free speech says the suspension is rediculous, but when you consider expressing admiration for Adolf Hitler is career suicide in any profession, Ozzie is getting off easily on this one.

This has nothing to do with Ozzie's rights to free speech.

kittle42
04-11-2012, 10:19 AM
If people here want to call Ozzie an idiot for saying what he said, (again) that's really not saying much. I just though Sox fans here would be a little more thoughful.

Give me a break. You can't separate your feelings about 2005 from what the man is now. We see that. Most of the rest of us can.

Rocky Soprano
04-11-2012, 10:20 AM
Does anyone really need to express that they're appreciative of Ozzie for 2005? Isn't that naturally assumed at this point? We're obviously all thankful that Ozzie was the right man for the job in 2005 but that doesn't give him a free pass to be an ******* for the rest of his life. If people want to forgive him, they can. If they want to be mad, they can. I personally don't care so much about his comments, I just like watching him squirm under the limelight.

And please, get over yourself. Just because you have a different opinion than other people in this thread doesn't mean your response is any more meaningful or thoughtful. Oh, goodie, Ozzie is being defended by other members of the Major League Baseball Good Old Boys club. He's also being condemned by hundreds, if not thousands, of Cuban exiles in America, so I'd say it's at best a wash.

Ozzie was the man in 2005, but he's not bigger than the Sox, and he turned around and stabbed this team in the back last year. Karma's a bitch, ain't it?

Love everything about this post!
:gulp:

kittle42
04-11-2012, 10:22 AM
The question at this point is whether certain people will let this controversy die.

"Letting it die" equates to agreeing that his apology and suspension are enough punishment. Maybe some people don't feel that. It remains to be seen.

TomBradley72
04-11-2012, 10:23 AM
My commitment to the right of free speech says the suspension is rediculous, but when you consider expressing admiration for Adolf Hitler is career suicide in any profession, Ozzie is getting off easily on this one.

The govt is not arresting him or punishing him for saying what he said- that's what the right to free speech is all about.

If I say or write something publicly that deeply offends my employer's customers- they have the right to take action- even if I'm protected from my government taking action.

kittle42
04-11-2012, 10:23 AM
My commitment to the right of free speech says the suspension is rediculous,

THIS IS NOT A FREE SPEECH ISSUE. Why do people not understand this?!?!

It continually amazes me that in a country whose residents love freedom so much, many have no understanding of what the most basic of those freedoms actually are.

The Racehorse
04-11-2012, 10:43 AM
Give me a break. You can't separate your feelings about 2005 from what the man is now. We see that. Most of the rest of us can.

I've called Ozzie, both indirectly & directly, an idiot, loudmouth, etc. Is that okay with you? I've also said that if the Marlins end up firing Ozzie, so be it. Again, is that okay with you or anyone else here?

Just because pretty much everyone in this thread agrees with you and disagrees with me means, to be polite, nothing.

It's human nature to not change one's mind. We're all guilty of throwing an opinion or statement out into the open and then digging in our heels when others disagree or at least differ from our original stance. That's part of life & it happens everywhere: job, family, message boards...

But don't worry, no problem. You win.

doublem23
04-11-2012, 10:53 AM
I've called Ozzie, both indirectly & directly, an idiot, loudmouth, etc. Is that okay with you? I've also said that if the Marlins end up firing Ozzie, so be it. Again, is that okay with you or anyone else here?

Just because pretty much everyone in this thread agrees with you and disagrees with me means, to be polite, nothing.

It's human nature to not change one's mind. We're all guilty of throwing an opinion or statement out into the open and then digging in our heels when others disagree or at least differ from our original stance. That's part of life & it happens everywhere: job, family, message boards...

But don't worry, no problem. You win.

What are you talking about? Nobody here is telling you that you have to change your opinion of Ozzie or any of that crap. We're only listing why we choose to feel differently.

If you can't get mad at Ozzie because of '05, that's fine, man. I was like that for a long time, too; I vigorously defended Ozzie for years. But I personally feel betrayed by him for the way he handled his contracts, his exit, the way he managed the team the last few years. That's just my personal opinion of Ozzie right now and hence, I am enjoying watching his big ****ing mouth catch up with him.

Time heals wounds. I'm sure in 10 or 15 years, when he's throwing out the 1st pitch at the Home Opener, I'll only be thinking of that '05 season and how great he was. But the wounds are still fresh now, so I can't help but enjoy watching him get his comeuppance.

kittle42
04-11-2012, 10:54 AM
But don't worry, no problem. You win.

Excellent. I'm 1-0. Best two-of-three?

soltrain21
04-11-2012, 11:06 AM
Excellent. I'm 1-0. Best two-of-three?

Retire undefeated. It's the heel thing to do.

kittle42
04-11-2012, 11:08 AM
Retire undefeated. It's the heel thing to do.

Nah, I'll keep going, but I'll often get DQ'd on purpose.

GoGoCrede
04-11-2012, 11:24 AM
The greatest White Sox player of all time not relevant? The current manager of the Sox not relevant? The second baseman and shortstop of the Sox who both played for Guillen not relevant? A son of a Cuban exile not relevant? C'mon... these guys matter.

I'm a big enough person to agree that, yeah sure, it's probably best that if Ozzie's dumb comments upset or insulted Marlin first baseman Gaby Sanchez that Sanchez would likely keep his opinions to himself.

But Sanchez didn't do that. And because of who Sanchez is and his own background, it makes it all the more relevant considering Gaby Sanchez also has to walk streets of "Little Havana". Not being worried about a backlash from your community matters.


The point is that not all Cubans think the same way about the situation. Frankly, I think it's a bit insulting to say that one population is automatically going to feel the same way as one person does. I don't claim to represent my own race when I think one way about an issue. And anyway, it's not the players' feelings that matter at this point, it's the insulted fans who will start to close their wallets to the franchise.

Frontman
04-11-2012, 11:47 AM
THIS IS NOT A FREE SPEECH ISSUE. Why do people not understand this?!?!

It continually amazes me that in a country whose residents love freedom so much, many have no understanding of what the most basic of those freedoms actually are.

Freedom of speech? No. It's a freedom of expression, however.

Ozzie has the right to think, and say, whatever he wants.

The problem was that he said his comments while "on duty" as it were for the Miami Marlins. And as the public face of the organization; his comments could of been construed as being that of the Marlins themselves.

The Marlins also have their right as an organization to express how they view his comments. His suspension illustrates how they view them.

I think they have handled the situation as best as they can; and they will try to move forward. Only time will tell if the community at large moves forward with them. And as GoGoCrede points out; its hard to figure out how an entire population will react to any given thing over time.

The Racehorse
04-11-2012, 12:12 PM
The point is that not all Cubans think the same way about the situation. Frankly, I think it's a bit insulting to say that one population is automatically going to feel the same way as one person does. I don't claim to represent my own race when I think one way about an issue. And anyway, it's not the players' feelings that matter at this point, it's the insulted fans who will start to close their wallets to the franchise.

I never said that just because Gaby Sanchez is the son of Cuban exiles and that Sanchez called the controversy "drama for nothing" that all Cuban-Americans feel the same way. Also, I never implied that.

What I was pointing out is that Ozzie's peers:

- another manager
- current Sox players, one who is Cuban
- greatest White Sox player of all time
- current Marlin firstbaseman who is Cuban
- a latino broadcaster for ESPN

... all said something positive (or in the case of the ESPN guy, reported) about Ozzie's apology. I premised this by opining that a good way to guage a controversy of any kind is to look and see what the peers are saying... again, I did not use the Cuban/latino examples to say or imply that all Cubans feel the same way as Gaby Sanchez or that the Cuban/latino community is an example of monolithic thinking.

Okay? Understand? Are we good?

GoGoCrede
04-11-2012, 12:19 PM
I never said that just because Gaby Sanchez is the son of Cuban exiles and that Sanchez called the controversy "drama for nothing" that all Cuban-Americans feel the same way. Also, I never implied that.

What I was pointing out is that Ozzie's peers:

- another manager
- current Sox players, one who is Cuban
- greatest White Sox player of all time
- current Marlin firstbaseman who is Cuban
- a latino broadcaster for ESPN

... all said something positive (or in the case of the ESPN guy, reported) about Ozzie's apology. I premised this by opining that a good way to guage a controversy of any kind is to look and see what the peers are saying... again, I did not use the Cuban/latino examples to say or imply that all Cubans feel the same way as Gaby Sanchez or that the Cuban/latino community is an example of monolithic thinking.

Okay? Understand? Are we good?

You're still using their thoughts to gauge what the population feels, which again is assuming all of the population feels the same way. And like I said earlier, it's the fans' opinions who count more, and not all of them are going to agree. It's nice that these people have given their opinion, but at the end of the day, I would hope the organization doesn't take their word to gauge how everyone feels. And yes, I know the opinions are going to vary wildly. I don't know that one solution will ever satisfy all of them. Glad I'm not in the Marlins' PR department.

The Racehorse
04-11-2012, 12:40 PM
You're still using their thoughts to gauge what the population feels which again is assuming all of the population feels the same way...

In all due respect, you're wrong.

Mentioning Gaby Sanchez's & Alexei Ramirez's heritage in the context of what Ozzie's peers are saying does not mean in any way, shape, or form that I'm saying that the Cuban population all feel one way or another.

If you don't understand that, than sorry.

... And like I said earlier, it's the fans' opinions who count more, and not all of them are going to agree. It's nice that these people have given their opinion, but at the end of the day, I would hope the organization doesn't take their word to gauge how everyone feels. And yes, I know the opinions are going to vary wildly. I don't know that one solution will ever satisfy all of them. Glad I'm not in the Marlins' PR department.

Good. Fine. You're right. You win. No problem.
:cheers:

GoGoCrede
04-11-2012, 12:42 PM
Good. Fine. You're right. You win. No problem.
:cheers:

Thanks!! :gulp: It's my birthday tomorrow, so it's nice to have a win.

The Racehorse
04-11-2012, 12:46 PM
Thanks!! :gulp: It's my birthday tomorrow, so it's nice to have a win.

Hey, Happy Birthday -1 !!! :D:

Go SOX!

Oblong
04-11-2012, 01:59 PM
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/wrong-guy-apologizing-for-legitimizing-castro-30012

not sure if this has been mentioned yet.... selig didn't mind being cozy with Fidel at one point. So what exactly is his issue in all of this?

The Racehorse
04-11-2012, 02:07 PM
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/wrong-guy-apologizing-for-legitimizing-castro-30012

not sure if this has been mentioned yet.... selig didn't mind being cozy with Fidel at one point. So what exactly is his issue in all of this?

I mentioned it. Post #117 ... :shrug:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2911611&postcount=117

By the way, as another separate subtext to all this, a good example of a missplaced opinion is Bob Brenly, who said last night during the Brewers/Cubs game that the 5 game suspension was a slap on the wrist, and used Marge Schott's year long suspension due to her comments about Hitler as justification of his remarks about Ozzie. Brenly is forgetting that MLB Commissionor Bud Selig visited Cuba in 1999, and sat next to Fidel Castro as they took in a baseball game. MLB can't suspend Ozzie for any real length of time due to his dopey comments about Castro when the Commisionor of MLB literally rubbed elbows with Castro...

Hendu
04-11-2012, 02:12 PM
Freedom of speech? No. It's a freedom of expression, however.

Ozzie has the right to think, and say, whatever he wants.

The problem was that he said his comments while "on duty" as it were for the Miami Marlins. And as the public face of the organization; his comments could of been construed as being that of the Marlins themselves.

The Marlins also have their right as an organization to express how they view his comments. His suspension illustrates how they view them.

I think they have handled the situation as best as they can; and they will try to move forward. Only time will tell if the community at large moves forward with them. And as GoGoCrede points out; its hard to figure out how an entire population will react to any given thing over time.

Why does it make a difference whether or not he was on duty? If you do or say something that ticks off your customers in your free time, your employer can and will deal with it. The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say something, but it doesn't protect you from the consequences, whether it's being fired, losing customers, getting divorced, etc.

My sense from talking to friends in Miami is most of the Cuban population doesn't think it's a big deal, but there's a very vocal and organized minority who are giving this legs. It'll probably all blow over depending on what happens on the field.

kittle42
04-11-2012, 02:23 PM
Why does it make a difference whether or not he was on duty? If you do or say something that ticks off your customers in your free time, your employer can and will deal with it. The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say something, but it doesn't protect you from the consequences, whether it's being fired, losing customers, getting divorced, etc.

Correct - if I make a Facebook posting this weekend that my employer doesn't like from the privacy of my own home while doing no work and the post really having nothing to even do with work, and it somehow gets to them that I did, they can fire me.

Frontman
04-11-2012, 02:38 PM
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/wrong-guy-apologizing-for-legitimizing-castro-30012

not sure if this has been mentioned yet.... selig didn't mind being cozy with Fidel at one point. So what exactly is his issue in all of this?

Selig didn't suspend Ozzie, the Marlins did themselves. As much as Selig makes my skin crawl; on this particular issue he didn't do anything.

Frontman
04-11-2012, 02:39 PM
Why does it make a difference whether or not he was on duty? If you do or say something that ticks off your customers in your free time, your employer can and will deal with it. The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say something, but it doesn't protect you from the consequences, whether it's being fired, losing customers, getting divorced, etc.

My sense from talking to friends in Miami is most of the Cuban population doesn't think it's a big deal, but there's a very vocal and organized minority who are giving this legs. It'll probably all blow over depending on what happens on the field.

B&B pointed that out yesterday on their show. It seems that all of these protests are really a lot smaller than we're led to believe, aka "One guy with a bullhorn."

kittle42
04-11-2012, 02:49 PM
B&B pointed that out yesterday on their show. It seems that all of these protests are really a lot smaller than we're led to believe, aka "One guy with a bullhorn."

Given 24 hour news media today, I often wonder how large these protests are that probably would not have received one iota of attention 25 years ago.

Oblong
04-11-2012, 03:04 PM
Selig didn't suspend Ozzie, the Marlins did themselves. As much as Selig makes my skin crawl; on this particular issue he didn't do anything.

No, he didn't suspend him, and for tht I am glad. But he did say this:


“Major League Baseball supports today’s decision by the Marlins to suspend Ozzie Guillen. As I have often said, Baseball is a social institution with important social responsibilities. All of our 30 Clubs play significant roles within their local communities, and I expect those who represent Major League Baseball to act with the kind of respect and sensitivity that the game’s many cultures deserve. Mr. Guillen’s remarks, which were offensive to an important part of the Miami community and others throughout the world, have no place in our game.”


So to me that makes him a hypocrite. He had no problem schmoozing with Castro.

Frontman
04-11-2012, 03:10 PM
So to me that makes him a hypocrite. He had no problem schmoozing with Castro.

Heads of State, or in this case, heads of organizations, sometimes have to do things that don't make any sense or are hypocritical. Gray areas and all that.

Oblong
04-11-2012, 03:54 PM
we're not talking about trade agreements between nations. There was no reason for baseball to even go to Cuba. Baseball didn't need anything from them.
Bud just figured we forgot.

Frontman
04-11-2012, 04:19 PM
we're not talking about trade agreements between nations. There was no reason for baseball to even go to Cuba. Baseball didn't need anything from them.
Bud just figured we forgot.

You mean, besides all the players that have defected to the States to play in MLB, right? :D:

TomBradley72
04-11-2012, 05:00 PM
This seems like a pretty balanced perspective-

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/11/2741174/ozzie-guillens-comments-were-hurtful.html

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 09:30 AM
THIS IS NOT A FREE SPEECH ISSUE. Why do people not understand this?!?!

It continually amazes me that in a country whose residents love freedom so much, many have no understanding of what the most basic of those freedoms actually are.

I wouldn't be so absolute. Ever heard of the Golden Rule? It goes like this: those who have the gold make the rules...

Sports columnists Nico Savidge & Dave Zirin have some interesting things to say about the Ozzie/Castro flap. You should google them for a different POV.

asindc
04-12-2012, 09:52 AM
I wouldn't be so absolute. Ever heard of the Golden Rule? It goes like this: those who have the gold make the rules...

Sports columnists Nico Savidge & Dave Zirin have some interesting things to say about the Ozzie/Castro flap. You should google them for a different POV.

It is not a matter of opinion whether or not this is a free speech issue. It is not. It is a conduct issue between Ozzie Guillen and his employer.

kittle42
04-12-2012, 10:01 AM
I wouldn't be so absolute. Ever heard of the Golden Rule? It goes like this: those who have the gold make the rules...

Sports columnists Nico Savidge & Dave Zirin have some interesting things to say about the Ozzie/Castro flap. You should google them for a different POV.

There is no POV. All I was talking about was free speech in a legal, Constitutional sense. Legally, it is 100% factually not a free speech issue. The only other POV is that you are wrong about what free speech is and whether employers can make decisions on your employment based upon your speech - they can.

I don't mean to sound like a dick (for once), but this is what I do for a living.

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 10:02 AM
It is not a matter of opinion whether or not this is a free speech issue. It is not. It is a conduct issue between Ozzie Guillen and his employer.

So when your employer disagrees with your politics that you either coherently or inchoherently said in public, the employer (who scratches your paycheck) is going to be all good with that? I doubt it.

kittle42
04-12-2012, 10:14 AM
So when your employer disagrees with your politics that you either coherently or inchoherently said in public, the employer (who scratches your paycheck) is going to be all good with that? I doubt it.

Here is the fact of the matter:

I post a comment on Twitter or Facebook saying, "I love Fidel Castro." The unquestionably has nothing to do with my employment. My (private company) employer finds out about it. For some reason, they feel it reflects negatively upon them. They fire me. I have ZERO recourse.

doublem23
04-12-2012, 10:25 AM
So when your employer disagrees with your politics that you either coherently or inchoherently said in public, the employer (who scratches your paycheck) is going to be all good with that? I doubt it.

That would also not be a freedom of speech issue

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 10:39 AM
There is no POV. All I was talking about was free speech in a legal, Constitutional sense. Legally, it is 100% factually not a free speech issue. The only other POV is that you are wrong about what free speech is and whether employers can make decisions on your employment based upon your speech - they can.

I don't mean to sound like a dick (for once), but this is what I do for a living.

Yes, you're a lawyer. I looked in your bio.

An employer (who makes the rules) punishing an employee because they disagree with what their employee says in public isn't exactly "free speech".

Also, this all may not be a free speech issue in the legal definition, but so what. There are such things are bad laws.

I'm not saying all this just to be contrarian (I'm actually not built that way). There are plenty of nuances with this Ozzie/Castro situation and I would've thought that you being a trained lawyer would appreciate that.

TomBradley72
04-12-2012, 10:49 AM
Yes, you're a lawyer. I looked in your bio.

An employer (who makes the rules) punishing an employee because they disagree with what their employee says in public isn't exactly "free speech".

Also, this all may not be a free speech issue in the legal definition, but so what. There are such things are bad laws.

I'm not saying all this just to be contrarian (I'm actually not built that way). There are plenty of nuances with this Ozzie/Castro situation and I would've thought that you being a trained lawyer would appreciate that.

I don't think this is an issue of Marlins' ownership agreeing/disagreeing with Ozzie said or his politics- this is an issue of the Marlins' ownership being concerned that Ozzie has offended a big part of their customer base and having a very negative impact on the major investment they made in his contract, their FA's and the new ballpark.

doublem23
04-12-2012, 11:01 AM
Did you just call "freedom of speech" a "bad law"?

:thud:

An employer (who makes the rules) punishing an employee because they disagree with what their employee says in public isn't exactly "free speech".

It's actually exactly what free speech is about.


There are plenty of nuances with this Ozzie/Castro situation and I would've thought that you being a trained lawyer would appreciate that.

I'm not even a trained lawyer and I can pretty much definitely say there are no nuances here. Ozzie said something stupid. It pissed off a bunch of Ozzie's employers potential customers. Ozzie's employer reprimanded him. Note how I did not say Ozzie got throw into jail. The system works!

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 11:01 AM
I don't think this is an issue of Marlins' ownership agreeing/disagreeing with Ozzie said or his politics- this is an issue of the Marlins' ownership being concerned that Ozzie has offended a big part of their customer base and having a very negative impact on the major investment they made in his contract, their FA's and the new ballpark.

Yes, you're right. But that's just part of the story.

Bud Selig's statement about Ozzie's comments when he himself rubbed elbows with Castro is another part of the story. Those in the Cuban community trying their best to give this story legs is another part of the story. People trying to get their heads wrapped around what "free speech" means is another part of the story. Why Ozzie is a big loudmouthed dummy is another part of the story...

Allot of moving parts.

I'm just not impressed with blanket statements.

kittle42
04-12-2012, 11:10 AM
Yes, you're right. But that's just part of the story.

Bud Selig's statement about Ozzie's comments when he himself rubbed elbows with Castro is another part of the story. Those in the Cuban community trying their best to give this story legs is another part of the story. People trying to get their heads wrapped around what "free speech" means is another part of the story. Why Ozzie is a big loudmouthed dummy is another part of the story...

Allot of moving parts.

I'm just not impressed with blanket statements.

You may not be impressed with the "blanket statement" that what the Marlins are doing is completely legal, but it is. That's all that the rest of us are arguing. So at least admit that.

If your position is, "Despite the fact that it is legal and Constitutional to do so, I do not think it *should* be legal for a private employer to discipline an employee over a public statement that employee makes, and we should change the law to make it such" then that's fine as your opinion.

If your issue is what the Marlins' motivations are for disciplining Ozzie, that's fine, too (it's of course financial and customer-driven). But the law doesn't care what their motivations are as long as those motivations are non-discriminatory (not based on a protected category such as race or age).

But there can be zero question that what the Marlins are doing is completely lawful and within their rights. Just trying to be clear that you're not arguing that what the Marlins are doing is an illegal suppression of free speech.

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 11:11 AM
Did you just call "freedom of speech" a "bad law"?

:thud:



That's not what I said and you know it.

Why, as a moderator, are trying to sabotage this thread? Also, ever hear of the concept of being as smart as the one you're talking to?

I'm talking about this in a clear manner. I've been around here just as long as you. I was Nick@Nite from 2002 - 2004, and I know the rules here.

If you want to be a jerk, fine. Like I said before, I get all this. You win.

doublem23
04-12-2012, 11:19 AM
That's not what I said and you know it.

Why, as a moderator, are trying to sabotage this thread? Also, ever here of the concept of being as smart as the one you're talking to?

I'm talking about this in a clear manner. I've been around here just as long as you. I was Nick@Nite from 2002 - 2004, and I know the rules here.

If you want to be a jerk, fine. Like I said before, I get all this. You win.

Nobody is sabotaging anything, you're just mad that I don't agree with you and have been actively engaging in a debate. I'm sorry that we all don't agree with your opinion of Ozzie and his suspension.

I would also add the several compliments I have recieved in this thread that I have done nothing but bring up points that I deem (and others apparently, as well) are valid. I'm not interested in "winning" anything. Message boards are places of conversation.

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 11:36 AM
You may not be impressed with the "blanket statement" that what the Marlins are doing is completely legal, but it is. That's all that the rest of us are arguing. So at least admit that.

If your position is, "Despite the fact that it is legal and Constitutional to do so, I do not think it *should* be legal for a private employer to discipline an employee over a public statement that employee makes, and we should change the law to make it such" then that's fine as your opinion.

If your issue is what the Marlins' motivations are for disciplining Ozzie, that's fine, too (it's of course financial and customer-driven). But the law doesn't care what their motivations are as long as those motivations are non-discriminatory (not based on a protected category such as race or age).

But there can be zero question that what the Marlins are doing is completely lawful and within their rights. Just trying to be clear that you're not arguing that what the Marlins are doing is an illegal suppression of free speech.

Hey, I like eveything you said.

I'm not arguing that what the Marlins are doing is illegal. That is how the laws are set up... can you or anyone else admit to that?

kittle42
04-12-2012, 11:40 AM
I'm not arguing that what the Marlins are doing is illegal. That is how the laws are set up... can you or anyone else admit to that?

Yes, freedom of speech is only protection from government action except for a very few limited scenarios in certain states under state laws. So, yes, that is how the laws are set up.

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 11:44 AM
Nobody is sabotaging anything, you're just mad that I don't agree with you and have been actively engaging in a debate. I'm sorry that we all don't agree with your opinion of Ozzie and his suspension.

I would also add the several compliments I have recieved in this thread that I have done nothing but bring up points that I deem (and others apparently, as well) are valid. I'm not interested in "winning" anything. Message boards are places of conversation.

:whocares:

spawn
04-12-2012, 11:45 AM
:whocares:

You obviously do, as you keep responding to his posts. :shrug:

GoGoCrede
04-12-2012, 12:01 PM
You obviously do, as you keep responding to his posts. :shrug:

And he keeps letting us win! :tongue:

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 12:03 PM
Yes, freedom of speech is only protection from government action except for a very few limited scenarios in certain states under state laws. So, yes, that is how the laws are set up.

From government action, yes.

Now can you admit that laws that give companies the ability to fire employees due to a twitter or facebook post because "they feel it reflects negatively upon them" might not be a perfect law?

Again, I'm not a contrarian, but people who lobby their local, state, and federal government have their vested interests too. I'm just not so sure that getting clipped by your employer for a twitter post may always be a good thing.

As for Ozzie, by the way, I'm just trying to give him some support.

102605
04-12-2012, 12:05 PM
And he keeps letting us win! :tongue:

Win what? :scratch:

spawn
04-12-2012, 12:05 PM
From government action, yes.

Now can you admit that laws that give companies the ability to fire employees due to a twitter or facebook post because "they feel it reflects negatively upon them" might not be a perfect law?

Again, I'm not a contrarian, but people who lobby their local, state, and federal government have their vested interests too. I'm just not so sure that getting clipped by your employer for a twitter post may always be a good thing.

As for Ozzie, by the way, I'm just trying to give him some support.
If you want to continue this discussion, take it to PI. A lot of leeway has already been given, but you are now crossing over into political discussions. If you want to support Ozzie's dumb ass, you can continue to do so here. But the continued freedom of speech discussions end now.

102605
04-12-2012, 12:07 PM
I think this will all completely blow over by the time his 5 days are up. Ever hear the saying "making a mountain out of a molehill"? I think it applies here.

The Racehorse
04-12-2012, 12:10 PM
You obviously do, as you keep responding to his posts. :shrug:

Doublem23 has directly responded to 5 of my posts while I've directly responded to 3 of his posts... and he keeps jumping into the middle of my dialogue with Kittle42...

If you want to continue this discussion, take it to PI. A lot of leeway has already been given, but you are now crossing over into political discussions. If you want to support Ozzie's dumb ass, you can continue to do so here. But the continued freedom of speech discussions end now.

Okay, no problem.
I think this will all completely blow over by the time his 5 days are up. Ever hear the saying "making a mountain out of a molehill"? I think it applies here.

Exactly. A tempest in a teapot... :shrug:

GoGoCrede
04-12-2012, 12:10 PM
Win what? :scratch:

He's told me and Kittle that we won the argument a few pages back.

102605
04-12-2012, 12:11 PM
He's told me and Kittle that we won the argument a few pages back.

From what I've read, I think he is spot on. :whiteflag:

GoGoCrede
04-12-2012, 12:19 PM
From what I've read, I think he is spot on. :whiteflag:

I think the argument's been rehashed so much, I don't know that there's a whole lot that hasn't been discussed by the posts in here, all of which I found very interesting. I think it will indeed blow over. But Ozzie will be watched like a hawk from now on.

He let me win as a birthday gift to me, obviously. :tongue:

asindc
04-12-2012, 12:20 PM
Yes, you're a lawyer. I looked in your bio.

An employer (who makes the rules) punishing an employee because they disagree with what their employee says in public isn't exactly "free speech".

Also, this all may not be a free speech issue in the legal definition, but so what. There are such things are bad laws.

I'm not saying all this just to be contrarian (I'm actually not built that way). There are plenty of nuances with this Ozzie/Castro situation and I would've thought that you being a trained lawyer would appreciate that.

The "so what" part of your statement is not being argued (at least by me). My previous post was in response to your statement that whether or not Ozzie's free speech rights are being violated by his employer with the imposition of the suspension is a matter of opinion. As I said before, it is not.

If you wish to make the point that Ozzie's employer should not have the right to suspend him for statements he makes, then that is another issue.

kittle42
04-12-2012, 12:48 PM
If you want to continue this discussion, take it to PI.

I'm done.

I have avoided PI thus far because I'd prefer to not completely dislike regular posters on the site. I already made the mistake over at the NU site I post on, and now I'm stuck there!

Nellie_Fox
04-12-2012, 02:15 PM
I'm done.

I have avoided PI thus far because I'd prefer to not completely dislike regular posters on the site. I already made the mistake over at the NU site I post on, and now I'm stuck there!That's exactly why I stopped going to PI; I found myself actively disliking some regular WSI folks because of the vitriol spewed there. And I'm sure I was making people dislike me (more than they already do :tongue:)

SI1020
04-12-2012, 03:31 PM
I'm done.

I have avoided PI thus far because I'd prefer to not completely dislike regular posters on the site. I already made the mistake over at the NU site I post on, and now I'm stuck there!



That's exactly why I stopped going to PI; I found myself actively disliking some regular WSI folks because of the vitriol spewed there. And I'm sure I was making people dislike me (more than they already do :tongue:) Even mavericks like me know how wonderful it is to be liked, loved and considered one of the popular cool ones. However this is an age of rage, most of it mindless, and therefore I avoid posting on PI and only make quick infrequent visits there. This is the only message board I visit and participate in regularly, and I come here as a Sox fan, and the hell with most everything else except some interesting personal anecdotes people post. Sports has always been for me partly an outlet, and an escape from the BS of life.

MUsoxfan
04-12-2012, 09:00 PM
The Marlins are losing again. Too bad, so sad

doublem23
04-12-2012, 09:20 PM
The Marlins are losing again. Too bad, so sad

You can always count on Mark Buehrle to take the hard luck loss

RKMeibalane
04-12-2012, 09:28 PM
You can always count on Mark Buehrle to take the hard luck loss

To a Phillies team missing Howard and Utley. Buehrle can't catch a break.

:burly

"Can I come back to Chicago?"

:reinsy

"Anyone who thinks we can afford Mark Buehrle is crazy!"

Brian26
04-12-2012, 09:38 PM
Even mavericks like me know how wonderful it is to be liked, loved and considered one of the popular cool ones. However this is an age of rage, most of it mindless, and therefore I avoid posting on PI and only make quick infrequent visits there. This is the only message board I visit and participate in regularly, and I come here as a Sox fan, and the hell with most everything else except some interesting personal anecdotes people post. Sports has always been for me partly an outlet, and an escape from the BS of life.

Very well said.

TheVulture
04-14-2012, 10:50 PM
Welcome to modern America, where for every person, there is another person who wants to shut him up.

vinny
04-14-2012, 10:56 PM
LOL - Ozzie's Castro comments even made a question on today's episode of NPR's "Wait Wait...Don't Tell Me!"

Plus Jim Bouton had the guest spot.

thomas35forever
04-15-2012, 12:32 AM
Josh Brolin just impersonated Ozzie on SNL. Yeah, this is officially a big story.

fisk4ever
04-16-2012, 06:30 PM
LOL - Ozzie's Castro comments even made a question on today's episode of NPR's "Wait Wait...Don't Tell Me!"

Plus Jim Bouton had the guest spot.
Vinny, Did you hear the part where the contestant identified herself as a Cubs fan, then said she didn't know anything about sports? Classic.

From the transcript...
" JULIE RHEINSTROM: Hi, this is Julie Rheinstrom, calling from Washington, DC.
SAGAL: How are things in Washington?
RHEINSTROM: Pretty nice.
SAGAL: Pretty nice. It's a beautiful spring there too, I assume.
RHEINSTROM: Uh-huh.
SAGAL: It's been everywhere. And your baseball team is doing well.
RHEINSTROM: Oh, I wouldn't know. I'm actually a Cubs fan.
(later...)
SAGAL: Julie, here is your last quote.
KASELL: I love him. I respect. You know why? A lot of people have wanted to kill him for the last sixty years, but that bleep is still there.
SAGAL: That was Ozzie Guillen, the new manager of the Miami Marlins - that would be a baseball team in Miami - praising whom?
RHEINSTROM: Oh, I don't know anything about sports."

vinny
04-16-2012, 06:32 PM
Vinny, Did you hear the part where the contestant identified herself as a Cubs fan, then said she didn't know anything about sports? Classic.

From the transcript...
" JULIE RHEINSTROM: Hi, this is Julie Rheinstrom, calling from Washington, DC.
SAGAL: How are things in Washington?
RHEINSTROM: Pretty nice.
SAGAL: Pretty nice. It's a beautiful spring there too, I assume.
RHEINSTROM: Uh-huh.
SAGAL: It's been everywhere. And your baseball team is doing well.
RHEINSTROM: Oh, I wouldn't know. I'm actually a Cubs fan.
(later...)
SAGAL: Julie, here is your last quote.
KASELL: I love him. I respect. You know why? A lot of people have wanted to kill him for the last sixty years, but that bleep is still there.
SAGAL: That was Ozzie Guillen, the new manager of the Miami Marlins - that would be a baseball team in Miami - praising whom?
RHEINSTROM: Oh, I don't know anything about sports."

:rolling: I missed that little gem. Classic.

Frontman
04-16-2012, 07:44 PM
Vinny, Did you hear the part where the contestant identified herself as a Cubs fan, then said she didn't know anything about sports? Classic.

From the transcript...
" JULIE RHEINSTROM: Hi, this is Julie Rheinstrom, calling from Washington, DC.
SAGAL: How are things in Washington?
RHEINSTROM: Pretty nice.
SAGAL: Pretty nice. It's a beautiful spring there too, I assume.
RHEINSTROM: Uh-huh.
SAGAL: It's been everywhere. And your baseball team is doing well.
RHEINSTROM: Oh, I wouldn't know. I'm actually a Cubs fan.
(later...)
SAGAL: Julie, here is your last quote.
KASELL: I love him. I respect. You know why? A lot of people have wanted to kill him for the last sixty years, but that bleep is still there.
SAGAL: That was Ozzie Guillen, the new manager of the Miami Marlins - that would be a baseball team in Miami - praising whom?
RHEINSTROM: Oh, I don't know anything about sports."

:rolling: I missed that little gem. Classic.


:putitontheboard

RKMeibalane
04-16-2012, 07:49 PM
:rolling: I missed that little gem. Classic.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't find exchanges like that funny at all. I have a few friends who are "true blue" Cubs fans, and know everything about the franchise dating back to its inception. They live and die with every pitch, and are thoroughly disgusted with the entire Wrigley Field Beer Party atmosphere that's enveloped the team over the past 10-15 years.

People who call themselves Cubs fans, but don't actually know anything about baseball are a disgrace to the sport. The same is true with any other group of bandwagon fans. That's the one nice thing about the Sox struggles the past few seasons: the bandwagon fans who tried to jump aboard the train after 2005 are long gone.

Frontman
04-16-2012, 07:50 PM
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't find exchanges like that funny at all. I have a few friends who are "true blue" Cubs fans, and know everything about the franchise dating back to its inception. They live and die with every pitch, and are thoroughly disgusted with the entire Wrigley Field Beer Party atmosphere that's enveloped the team over the past 10-15 years.

People who call themselves Cubs fans, but don't actually know anything about baseball are a disgrace to the sport. The same is true with any other group of bandwagon fans. That's the one nice thing about the Sox struggles the past few seasons: the bandwagon fans who tried to jump aboard the train after 2005 are long gone.

I agree with you, but those types of Cubs fans are a silent/near silent minority in their fanbase. This exchange obviously isn't one of those types of fans.