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View Full Version : Mark Buehrle's hard luck continues


bridgeportcopper
04-05-2012, 06:58 PM
6 IP
2 ER
L
I swear he is the toughest luck pitcher of this generation of players. Probably should have close to 200 wins by now. He did get some support in games in which he gave up plenty, but he has lost a lot of 1-0's, 2-0's and endured a lot of blown saves.

guillensdisciple
04-05-2012, 07:02 PM
I have a feeling Miami will be the hard luck team of the year, or the team that gets off to a really cold start due to Ozzie's continuous disinterest in spring training.

#1swisher
04-05-2012, 07:07 PM
Love Mark, he can cry all the way to the bank.
Watching the Marlins yesterday and again today, reminded me of the 2011 CWS. Glad that era is ovah.

guillensdisciple
04-05-2012, 07:13 PM
Love Mark, he can cry all the way to the bank.
Watching the Marlins yesterday and again today, reminded me of the 2011 CWS. Glad that era is ovah.

I would go more 2010- I believe that was our true deadball era.

#1swisher
04-05-2012, 07:16 PM
I would go more 2010- I believe that was our true deadball era.

It's one big blur. :redneck

Dibbs
04-05-2012, 07:43 PM
Ozzieball.

jdm2662
04-05-2012, 07:49 PM
Why the hell did they play a night game at home and then have to fly to Cincy for a day game?

Frontman
04-05-2012, 07:52 PM
Why the hell did they play a night game at home and then have to fly to Cincy for a day game?

"Because I added another two teams to the Wild Card system, it will balance out the unfairness of the schedule...."
http://cache.deadspin.com/assets/images/11/2012/01/1e5c732b952ee193b0767adab2e27676.jpg


I did chuckle to see Mark out there in the black jersey, thinking "Man, he's got some pull with Ozzie. First game for Miami and he's forcing the black jerseys on the players!!!!" :)

DSpivack
04-05-2012, 07:55 PM
Why the hell did they play a night game at home and then have to fly to Cincy for a day game?

And the two teams have a day off tomorrow before resuming the series saturday and sunday!

Irishsox1
04-05-2012, 10:26 PM
I'm going to miss his under two hour games.

soxnut1018
04-05-2012, 10:37 PM
People still look at pitchers W-L record?

SephClone89
04-05-2012, 10:40 PM
People still look at pitchers W-L record?

Seriously.

Today, Justin Verlander didn't get a win.

Jose Valverde did.

Brian26
04-05-2012, 10:46 PM
People still look at pitchers W-L record?

Seriously.

Today, Justin Verlander didn't get a win.

Jose Valverde did.

That's funny, considering one of the main reasons Verlander won the MVP last year is because he had the most wins for an AL starting pitcher since Bob Welch in 1990 and the 2nd most wins since Steve Stone in 1980.

SephClone89
04-05-2012, 10:58 PM
That's funny, considering one of the main reasons Verlander won the MVP last year is because he had the most wins for an AL starting pitcher since Bob Welch in 1990 and the 2nd most wins since Steve Stone in 1980.

...What does that have to do with what we're talking about?

doublem23
04-06-2012, 07:26 AM
...What does that have to do with what we're talking about?

It means your missing the point of this thread; if anything, the OP and most people here are in agreement with you, we all know that Mark Buehrle is a much better pitcher than his W-L record would suggest.

Frontman
04-06-2012, 08:53 AM
It means your missing the point of this thread; if anything, the OP and most people here are in agreement with you, we all know that Mark Buehrle is a much better pitcher than his W-L record would suggest.

And yes, people still follow W-L records for pitchers. Almost any discussion of a starting pitcher will include how many wins he will average in a season.

And Mark is famous for his "pitch a gem, still lose the game" history.

doublem23
04-06-2012, 09:00 AM
And yes, people still follow W-L records for pitchers. Almost any discussion of a starting pitcher will include how many wins he will average in a season.

Well, no, not neccessarily, there's a pretty big chunk of baseball fans out there who don't care about W-L record at all, as it is a relatively worthless stat.

DumpJerry
04-06-2012, 09:11 AM
I'm going to miss his under two hour games.
I've noticed over the years that Gavin works more quickly that Burls, generally speaking. I've been to many Gavin games that hit the 7th inning after 1.5 hours.

Broccoli Rob
04-06-2012, 09:24 AM
That's funny, considering one of the main reasons Verlander won the MVP last year is because he had the most wins for an AL starting pitcher since Bob Welch in 1990 and the 2nd most wins since Steve Stone in 1980.

I'm sure his 250 Ks, 2.40 ERA and 0.92 ERA had nothing to do with it and the main reason was some historical anecdote about wins.

SI1020
04-06-2012, 09:39 AM
Well, no, not neccessarily, there's a pretty big chunk of baseball fans out there who don't care about W-L record at all, as it is a relatively worthless stat. Even in the prehistoric days of my youth we knew that a pitcher's W-L record could be a very inaccurate benchmark of his worth. I've spent hours on retrosheet and baseball-reference going over old box scores. It has given me an even greater appreciation of old Sox pitchers like Billy Pierce and Joe Horlen. I think the fact that Felix Hernandez won a Cy Young Award is evidence that attitudes are changing.

Noneck
04-06-2012, 09:52 AM
Well, no, not neccessarily, there's a pretty big chunk of baseball fans out there who don't care about W-L record at all, as it is a relatively worthless stat.

I dont know how many fans care about W-L loss records but I know other clubs and pitchers dont care much, after seeing Cains contract. So its basically a meaningless stat for them.

Frater Perdurabo
04-06-2012, 11:48 AM
The only stat that concerns me is the team's W-L record.

Irishsox1
04-06-2012, 12:27 PM
I just bothered to read Burhle's contract with Miami and I will be very surprised if he is still pitching for Miami in 2014.



4 years/$58M (2012-15)


signed by Miami as a free agent 12/8/11
$4M signing bonus (deferred without interest)
12:$6M, 13:$11M, 14:$18M, 15:$19M

doublem23
04-06-2012, 12:46 PM
I just bothered to read Burhle's contract with Miami and I will be very surprised if he is still pitching for Miami in 2014.


4 years/$58M (2012-15)


signed by Miami as a free agent 12/8/11
$4M signing bonus (deferred without interest)
12:$6M, 13:$11M, 14:$18M, 15:$19M



All of the Marlins big ticket signings have crazy backloaded contracts. It's insane.

balke
04-06-2012, 12:51 PM
6 IP
2 ER
L
I swear he is the toughest luck pitcher of this generation of players. Probably should have close to 200 wins by now. He did get some support in games in which he gave up plenty, but he has lost a lot of 1-0's, 2-0's and endured a lot of blown saves.



I think that sucks - but it's not as big of a deal in the NL to me. Most of those games should be low scoring affairs and close games.

That being said - he shouldn't be lacking run support this year. Once they hit a stride - I'd expect quite a few routes from Miami this season.

DSpivack
04-06-2012, 01:50 PM
All of the Marlins big ticket signings have crazy backloaded contracts. It's insane.

I've read some rumors that Loria is looking to sell the team in a year or two. With a brand new stadium and a roster with marquee players, it would theoretically be at peak value before those few bad contracts kick in.

doublem23
04-06-2012, 01:59 PM
I've read some rumors that Loria is looking to sell the team in a year or two. With a brand new stadium and a roster with marquee players, it would theoretically be at peak value before those few bad contracts kick in.

Only thing that seems to make any kind of sense. Buehrle and Reyes alone are inked for $41 M in 2015. Giancarlo Stanton and Logan Morrison will be entering arbitration in 2014. Those 4 alone might be eating $60 M of salary space. Yikes.

Brian26
04-07-2012, 12:20 AM
That's funny, considering one of the main reasons Verlander won the MVP last year is because he had the most wins for an AL starting pitcher since Bob Welch in 1990 and the 2nd most wins since Steve Stone in 1980.

I'm sure his 250 Ks, 2.40 ERA and 0.92 ERA had nothing to do with it and the main reason was some historical anecdote about wins.

Reading is a skill. I said the he won the MVP because of the sexy 24 win total. The numbers you quote above are the reason he won the Cy Young.

Felix had similar numbers, if not slightly better, in 2010 (2.27 ERA and 1.06 WHIP). Was he going to win the MVP with his 14 wins? Of course not.

doublem23
04-07-2012, 06:57 AM
Reading is a skill. I said the he won the MVP because of the sexy 24 win total. The numbers you quote above are the reason he won the Cy Young.

Felix had similar numbers, if not slightly better, in 2010 (2.27 ERA and 1.06 WHIP). Was he going to win the MVP with his 14 wins? Of course not.

That and Verlander's Tigers won 95 games in 2011 while Felix's Mariners won 61 in 2010. Justin could have won 30 games last year, if Detroit finished dead last in the division, he wouldn't have been in the discussion for MVP.

Brian26
04-07-2012, 08:04 AM
That and Verlander's Tigers won 95 games in 2011 while Felix's Mariners won 61 in 2010. Justin could have won 30 games last year, if Detroit finished dead last in the division, he wouldn't have been in the discussion for MVP.

True, but he if they finished dead last, Verlander probably wouldn't have had so many wins. A 60-win season by the Tigers last year probably results in more hard luck losses for Verlander, which goes back to our original point.

And, if someone Verlander were to rack up 24 or 25 wins on a 60-win last place club, he'd be even more deserving than Andre Dawson of the MVP award.

TommyJohn
04-07-2012, 09:14 AM
True, but he if they finished dead last, Verlander probably wouldn't have had so many wins. A 60-win season by the Tigers last year probably results in more hard luck losses for Verlander, which goes back to our original point.

And, if someone Verlander were to rack up 24 or 25 wins on a 60-win last place club, he'd be even more deserving than Andre Dawson of the MVP award.

It happened in 1972. Steve Carlton went 27-10 with a 1.97 ERA for a Phillies team that won 59 games. He won the Cy Young award, but the NL MVP that year was Johnny Bench.

Brian26
04-07-2012, 09:29 AM
Am I reading Carlton's stats correctly? He pitched 346 innings over 41 starts with no time in the bullpen, which averages out to 8+ innings per start for every start? Amazing. Between agents and specialized bullpens, nobody will ever come close to that again.

dickallen15
04-07-2012, 09:39 AM
What's ironic is pitchers' wins and losses mean nothing, but with teams wins and loses is the most important stat, and the pitcher is the biggest influence on that.

tstrike2000
04-07-2012, 11:17 AM
Am I reading Carlton's stats correctly? He pitched 346 innings over 41 starts with no time in the bullpen, which averages out to 8+ innings per start for every start? Amazing. Between agents and specialized bullpens, nobody will ever come close to that again.

Holy shiitake mushrooms.

SI1020
04-07-2012, 01:10 PM
Holy shiitake mushrooms. Robin Roberts of the Phillies pitched 300+ innings every year from 1950-55. Between 1962-81 every NL league leading pitcher had 300+ innings except for 1973. Between 1966-77 every AL league leading pitcher logged 300+ innings including Mickey Lolich with 376 in 1971 and our own Wilbur Wood with 376 2/3 the following year. Tony LaRussa seemingly has forever altered the game with rigidly slotting roles for pitchers, which I think is dumb, but who wants to challenge that system for fear of losing their managerial job.

TheVulture
04-07-2012, 04:32 PM
ARobin Roberts of the Phillies pitched 300+ innings every year from 1950-55. Between 1962-81 every NL league leading pitcher had 300+ innings except for 1973. Between 1966-77 every AL league leading pitcher logged 300+ innings including Mickey Lolich with 376 in 1971 and our own Wilbur Wood with 376 2/3 the following year. Tony LaRussa seemingly has forever altered the game with rigidly slotting roles for pitchers, which I think is dumb, but who wants to challenge that system for fear of losing their managerial job.

They learned their lesson from all the abbreviated, ineffective careers that resulted for these pitchers' heavy workloads. Steve Carlton only won three Cy Youngs after that 346 inning season, for crying out loud. He probably should have won at least ten if it weren't for all that abuse. And I don't think we need any reminders of Wood's shortened career.

dickallen15
04-07-2012, 04:45 PM
Its quite obvious baseball teams used to know how to handle pitchers. Once they became babied, they had to continue to baby them. Nolan Ryan used to throw close to 200 pitches some starts. He was still throwing gas in his mid 40s, and all this was back when surgery pretty much meant your career was over. The Rangers are trying to bring back that mentality, but its going to take a lot of teams to buy into it for it to work the way guys switch teams these days.

What we know is pitchers, if properly trained, can throw almost 300 innings and make over 40 starts a season. We also know if they are not, 140 pitch games and more than 200 IP tend to have lingering effects.

Now that steroids aren't as predominant, although pitchers were using just as much if not more than hitters, maybe it can get back to 4 man rotations. In the ERA where 4.50 ERAs were considered decent, pitchers don't last as long in games when they are getting pounded, and getting pounded was pretty common for just about everyone.

eriqjaffe
04-09-2012, 03:41 PM
I just read that Buehrle cut his left thumb on a jar of mayonnaise while making a sandwich before the game. Then he goes out and throws 6 innings of 2-run ball.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/2012/04/08/thumbs-up-for-mark-buehrle-carlos-zambrano-making-first-start-for-miami-marlins/

I can only imagine how many other pitchers would have been put on the DL because of that...

Lip Man 1
04-09-2012, 03:51 PM
Talk about throwing a lot of pitches in a game reminded me of this:

September 13, 1967 - In one of the longest games in franchise history and in the middle of a four team pennant race, the Sox shut out Cleveland 1-0 in 17 innings! (Now that’s pitching!) The game lasted over four and a half hours and was finally finished when Rocky Colavito singled to right driving home “Buddy” Bradford.

One other note on this game. Sox starter Gary Peters allowed one hit in 11 innings, striking out seven...he also walked 10! (I wonder what his pitch count was!)

Lip

amsteel
04-09-2012, 04:32 PM
Baseball Reference tracks a 'tough loss' stat which is losses in which the pitcher loses a game in which he throws a quality start.

Here's Buehrle's Tough Losses over the last few years and what rank in MLB that was and how many tough losses the league leader had.

2011: 3 tough losses (6th/8)
2010: 4 tough losses (6th/9)
2009: 1 tough loss (9th/9)
2008: 4 tough losses (5th/9)

In fact in that same 08-11 period, Buehrle never once led the White Sox in tough losses:
2011: Danks - 4
2010: Danks - 5
2009: Danks - 5
2008: Vasquez - 5

So yeah, feel bad for John Danks, not MB.

palehosepub
04-09-2012, 05:56 PM
I just read that Buehrle cut his left thumb on a jar of mayonnaise while making a sandwich before the game. Then he goes out and throws 6 innings of 2-run ball.

http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/2012/04/08/thumbs-up-for-mark-buehrle-carlos-zambrano-making-first-start-for-miami-marlins/

I can only imagine how many other pitchers would have been put on the DL because of that...

Just goes to prove that mayo is unhealthy for ya...

TDog
04-10-2012, 01:20 AM
A

They learned their lesson from all the abbreviated, ineffective careers that resulted for these pitchers' heavy workloads. Steve Carlton only won three Cy Youngs after that 346 inning season, for crying out loud. He probably should have won at least ten if it weren't for all that abuse. And I don't think we need any reminders of Wood's shortened career.

The last of Carlton's Cy Young awards, which he earned at the age of 37, was earned 11 years after his first, the 27-10 season. You have elite pitchers now with limited innings meant to lengthen their careers who don't have that sort of longevity at the tops of their games. With pitchers like Tom Seaver and Gaylord Perry in the league and Dwight Gooden coming into the league and dominating, it's unrealistic to suggest Carlton should have won more, just as it would be unrealistic to suggest Seaver should have won more than three because he pitched too many years in a four-man rotation.

A line drive off the bat of Ron LeFlore had more to do with shortening Wilbur Wood's career than his 300-plus-inning seasons.

bridgeportcopper
04-10-2012, 02:20 PM
Baseball Reference tracks a 'tough loss' stat which is losses in which the pitcher loses a game in which he throws a quality start.

Here's Buehrle's Tough Losses over the last few years and what rank in MLB that was and how many tough losses the league leader had.

2011: 3 tough losses (6th/8)
2010: 4 tough losses (6th/9)
2009: 1 tough loss (9th/9)
2008: 4 tough losses (5th/9)

In fact in that same 08-11 period, Buehrle never once led the White Sox in tough losses:
2011: Danks - 4
2010: Danks - 5
2009: Danks - 5
2008: Vasquez - 5

So yeah, feel bad for John Danks, not MB.

Well, statman, does that include games in which he left with a lead and the bullpen blew it where buehrls didn't necessarily get a loss? Because I certainly remember a few of those. Or quality starts where he left with a tie because the team didn't score for him? Because I also remember some of those. I don't feel sorry for Danks or Javy Vazquez for that matter, they weren't and still aren't in Mark's class. Let me know when either one of them starts an All-star game let alone gets into 4 of them.

amsteel
04-10-2012, 03:25 PM
Well, statman, does that include games in which he left with a lead and the bullpen blew it where buehrls didn't necessarily get a loss? Because I certainly remember a few of those. Or quality starts where he left with a tie because the team didn't score for him? Because I also remember some of those. I don't feel sorry for Danks or Javy Vazquez for that matter, they weren't and still aren't in Mark's class. Let me know when either one of them starts an All-star game let alone gets into 4 of them.

From 08-11 the Sox lost 8 games in which MB left the game slated for the win. Danks had 16 of these, Floyd had 15.

('Wins Lost' stat: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01-pitch.shtml, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/danksjo01-pitch.shtml, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/floydga01-pitch.shtml)

So Danks is 2x more hard luck, but MB is infinitely more grindy.

Steelrod
04-10-2012, 05:28 PM
I've read some rumors that Loria is looking to sell the team in a year or two. With a brand new stadium and a roster with marquee players, it would theoretically be at peak value before those few bad contracts kick in.
Stole that idea from Sam Zell and the Cubs. Sure worked out well for him! Left new owner with monsterous backloads and forces team to go young.

SephClone89
04-10-2012, 05:52 PM
Well, statman...
[...]
I don't feel sorry for Danks or Javy Vazquez for that matter, they weren't and still aren't in Mark's class. Let me know when either one of them starts an All-star game let alone gets into 4 of them.

:rolleyes:

From 08-11 the Sox lost 8 games in which MB left the game slated for the win. Danks had 16 of these, Floyd had 15.

('Wins Lost' stat: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01-pitch.shtml, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/danksjo01-pitch.shtml, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/floydga01-pitch.shtml)

So Danks is 2x more hard luck, but MB is infinitely more grindy.

:gulp:

DSpivack
04-10-2012, 06:02 PM
Stole that idea from Sam Zell and the Cubs. Sure worked out well for him! Left new owner with monsterous backloads and forces team to go young.

It did work out for Zell. While the Tribune sale as a whole may have been a fiasco, I think the Ricketts vastly overpaid for the Cubs.

vinny
04-19-2012, 11:50 AM
Mark picked up his first W last night against the Flubs. It sure helps when you get 9 runs for support.

asindc
04-19-2012, 12:12 PM
Mark picked up his first W last night against the Flubs. It sure helps when you get 9 runs for support.

I'm disappointed that he pitched last night, since that means he won't be pitching here this weekend against the Nats. I'm going to Saturday's game.