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#1swisher
03-31-2012, 12:56 PM
Four rookies make the roster - Addison Reed, Hector Santiago, Nate Jones & Eduardo Escobar

Mark Gonzales has the complete roster.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-bruney-olmedo-out-escobar-jones-appear-on-soxs-opening-day-roster-20120331,0,3880213.story

FielderJones
03-31-2012, 12:58 PM
Did my heart good to see Bruney out as part of the headline.

veeter
03-31-2012, 01:11 PM
I think the Sox will dispell the fact their system is dead last. These guys can play a little bit and it will show. And if they struggle I'd rather see a possibility for improvement rather than old guys sucking.

thomas35forever
03-31-2012, 01:14 PM
Did my heart good to see Bruney out as part of the headline.
I was honestly a bit surprised he was left off, but if they prefer to see a rookie out there instead, I'll give them a vote of confidence.

SoxSpeed22
03-31-2012, 01:29 PM
I was also surprised by Jones. He does have a decent stat line from his time in the minors, but that won't mean much up here. As long as he can avoid walking a lot of people, it can work. He has also won best curveball award (from baseball America) among the Sox minor league teams for the past 3 seasons.
We won't have to worry about players being overworked, since we do have a very versatile bench. Balancing playing time will be important.

October26
03-31-2012, 01:47 PM
Did my heart good to see Bruney out as part of the headline.

We discussed Bruney vs Jones at the WSI Party last night (where, btw, we missed you & Mrs. FJ). I haven't seen Nate Jones pitch this Spring, however, I do have bad memories of seeing Bruney pitch. So, I agree with you Fielder.

DirtySox
03-31-2012, 02:29 PM
I don't disagree with Jones making the roster, but I expect struggles from him. Hopefully he gets valuable Coop time this year.

Domeshot17
03-31-2012, 02:52 PM
I think the Sox will dispell the fact their system is dead last. These guys can play a little bit and it will show. And if they struggle I'd rather see a possibility for improvement rather than old guys sucking.

Sorry but the Sox farm is easily the worst in baseball. When the only things you can provide are a couple fringe middle relievers, 1 quality middle reliever and a back up IF, it is not pretty.

Tragg
03-31-2012, 03:38 PM
Did my heart good to see Bruney out as part of the headline.

:bandance:

Indeed.

Overall, given the available players, I like the roster.

Sorry but the Sox farm is easily the worst in baseball. When the only things you can provide are a couple fringe middle relievers, 1 quality middle reliever and a back up IF, it is not pretty.
It depends on how you define system. If you look at the players on the farm right now, it is. If you look at the players that come through the farm, it isn't. The Sox use their farm a lot more than other organizations, that seem to look at it as an entity on its own to value, rather than what it does to the major league team (and a lot of analysts look at farms that way, especially at places like BP).

A. Cavatica
03-31-2012, 05:15 PM
Four rookies on the roster is something that makes me a little bit excited for the season. The team won't be good but at least I can root for the kids.

Tragg
03-31-2012, 05:17 PM
The bullpen could be a mess, with only 2 proven quality veterans.
Kind of risky.
But, as said above, it will be fun watching the kids.

FielderJones
03-31-2012, 11:14 PM
We discussed Bruney vs Jones at the WSI Party last night (where, btw, we missed you & Mrs. FJ). I haven't seen Nate Jones pitch this Spring, however, I do have bad memories of seeing Bruney pitch. So, I agree with you Fielder.

I wish we could have made it but other commitments got in the way. Next time!

russ99
04-01-2012, 02:17 PM
The bullpen could be a mess, with only 2 proven quality veterans.
Kind of risky.
But, as said above, it will be fun watching the kids.

Agree. I would have preferred Bruney given he has some experience getting big league hitters out, but let's see what the kid can do.

Besides, all big league teams call up relievers, so if Bruney can pitch well in AAA, he'll be back at some point.

TheVulture
04-01-2012, 02:38 PM
Sorry but the Sox farm is easily the worst in baseball. When the only things you can provide are a couple fringe middle relievers, 1 quality middle reliever and a back up IF, it is not pretty.

...and a second baseman, third basemen, starting pitcher, catcher, left fielder...

DirtySox
04-01-2012, 02:46 PM
...and a second baseman, third basemen, starting pitcher, catcher, left fielder...

I would argue it's too early to be trumpeting the success of Morel, Beckham, Viciedo, and Flowers. They haven't really done much of anything yet.

SCCWS
04-01-2012, 03:18 PM
I would argue it's too early to be trumpeting the success of Morel, Beckham, Viciedo, and Flowers. They haven't really done much of anything yet.


Based on their offensive production in 2011, Beckham or Morel would not start for many ML teams. Hopefully in 2012 they will emerge.

KMcMahon817
04-01-2012, 07:26 PM
The bullpen could be a mess, with only 2 proven quality veterans.
Kind of risky.
But, as said above, it will be fun watching the kids.

Agreed. Wouldn't mind SOX putting a claim in on Alfredo Simon. He was waived by the O's yesterday.

Kind of wish they picked up a few more veterans off the scrap heap late in the season. But, oh well. Lets play ball.

sox230
04-01-2012, 10:21 PM
Agree. I would have preferred Bruney given he has some experience getting big league hitters out, but let's see what the kid can do.

Besides, all big league teams call up relievers, so if Bruney can pitch well in AAA, he'll be back at some point.

This is what kills me about the Sergio trade. That trade made ZERO sense to me and I STILL can't figure it out. It took long enough to find a closer on the team last year. We have one that finally emerges, and who is cheap for several years, and trade him for a prospect. He struggled toward the end of last year, but I think he was just tired. Expecting big things from him in TOR this season.

delben91
04-01-2012, 11:24 PM
I would argue it's too early to be trumpeting the success of Morel, Beckham, Viciedo, and Flowers. They haven't really done much of anything yet.

Based on ML time, pretty early to be calling Morel, Viciedo and Flowers failures as well. Unproven works both ways in my understanding.

Though I guess on WSI it's guilty until proven innocent.

DirtySox
04-02-2012, 07:49 AM
Based on ML time, pretty early to be calling Morel, Viciedo and Flowers failures as well. Unproven works both ways in my understanding.

Though I guess on WSI it's guilty until proven innocent.

I must have missed where I called them failures.

doublem23
04-02-2012, 08:39 AM
This is what kills me about the Sergio trade. That trade made ZERO sense to me and I STILL can't figure it out. It took long enough to find a closer on the team last year. We have one that finally emerges, and who is cheap for several years, and trade him for a prospect. He struggled toward the end of last year, but I think he was just tired. Expecting big things from him in TOR this season.

One of the only exciting young players in the entire organization has "superstar closer" written all over him. I have a feeling the Sox were looking to deal either Santos or Thornton and Santos provided the better return. As for Sergio, teams that sort of stink and aren't really going to be contending this season (like the Sox) don't need a big-time closer, so he's expendable. Better for the long-term vision of the team to ensure Reed has a spot on the roster and pitches significant innings this year than to keep Santos around who is already turning 29 years old this year and, even though under team control, will likely be in decline before the Sox are serious contenders again.

The trade makes sense or doesn't how you view Nestor Molina. If you're optimistic, then the Sox traded a 29-year-old bullpen arm for a 23-year-old SP prospect. That's a good deal for a team that's not really expected to do anything this year. If you take the pessimistic route, then the Sox overpaid for him because they probably had to slash a little salary out of their books and Santos was one of the easiest to move.

guillensdisciple
04-02-2012, 08:48 AM
Beckham is the man that deserves equal or more criticism to rios Dunn and the like. Guy was supposed to be our savior and he has not panned out to be anything but a good second basemen. My focus is squarely on him. I am sick of people defending him, he's like the brother who parents love the most regardless of all the bad things he does.

doublem23
04-02-2012, 09:02 AM
Beckham is the man that deserves equal or more criticism to rios Dunn and the like. Guy was supposed to be our savior and he has not panned out to be anything but a good second basemen. My focus is squarely on him. I am sick of people defending him, he's like the brother who parents love the most regardless of all the bad things he does.

This is goofy nonsense. Prospects fail all the time in the Major Leagues. Every team has a laundry list of "can't miss" superstars who never materialize to anything in the Majors.

Beckham is still making the league minimum, around $500 K this year. Dunn and Rios, two established veterans with many seasons of good results under their belts, are making a combined $26 M this season. They are killing the team right now. Teams can win when they get little offensive production and A+ defense out of their middle infielder who bats 9th. They can't win when 2 of their 3 main offensive cogs are struggling to hit the Mendoza line.

delben91
04-02-2012, 09:23 AM
I must have missed where I called them failures.

Sorry, should've been more clear since I quoted you. You didn't call them failures, though several other posters have been going on about how "it's about time Morel shows something or we move on" (to paraphrase).

Just my opinion that players with less than 1 year in the bigs haven't shown all they have to show yet. Apologies for the misleading quoting.

russ99
04-02-2012, 10:16 AM
This is goofy nonsense. Prospects fail all the time in the Major Leagues. Every team has a laundry list of "can't miss" superstars who never materialize to anything in the Majors.

Beckham is still making the league minimum, around $500 K this year. Dunn and Rios, two established veterans with many seasons of good results under their belts, are making a combined $26 M this season. They are killing the team right now. Teams can win when they get little offensive production and A+ defense out of their middle infielder who bats 9th. They can't win when 2 of their 3 main offensive cogs are struggling to hit the Mendoza line.

Well put. Also, I'm not expecting Beckham to be another Robinson Cano. Just because he was a first round pick doesn't mean he's going to be an annual all-star. The hype was a bit too much his first year, and few players can live up to that. I'm OK with Beckham being an average to above average player.

I'm also very hopeful that he can hit better with a more patient approach under Mark Parent, as Walker seemed to have Beckham going around in circles.

Broccoli Rob
04-02-2012, 12:40 PM
Future nonwithstanding, who is closing for the Sox come this weekend?

doublem23
04-02-2012, 12:50 PM
Future nonwithstanding, who is closing for the Sox come this weekend?

Probably Thornton, but I don't know if they've announced anything for sure

DirtySox
04-02-2012, 12:59 PM
Sorry, should've been more clear since I quoted you. You didn't call them failures, though several other posters have been going on about how "it's about time Morel shows something or we move on" (to paraphrase).

Just my opinion that players with less than 1 year in the bigs haven't shown all they have to show yet. Apologies for the misleading quoting.

No worries. I'd say they are all still works in progress. Though Beckham is getting to the point where we need to see progress with the bat.

doublem23
04-02-2012, 01:05 PM
No worries. I'd say they are all still works in progress. Though Beckham is getting to the point where we need to see progress with the bat.

New season with a new hitting coach so it's about time we hit the **** or get off the pot time with Bacon. Viciedo, Flowers, and Morel (in roughly that order) didn't have nearly the pedigree Gordon did so it's not surprising that people aren't too wild about the somewhat predictably underawhelming results.

TDog
04-02-2012, 01:28 PM
Based on their offensive production in 2011, Beckham or Morel would not start for many ML teams. Hopefully in 2012 they will emerge.

That isn't true because most major league teams don't base their starting lineup solely on offensive production. (In a way that's even true for designated hitters as most major league teams don't use designated hitters.)

doublem23
04-02-2012, 01:38 PM
That isn't true because most major league teams don't base their starting lineup solely on offensive production. (In a way that's even true for designated hitters as most major league teams don't use designated hitters.)

Which is kind of funny considering last year, both Beckham and Morel were among the least offensively capable players at their respective positions in the American League, while the 4 teams that went to the play-offs had 3 of the 4 best offensive 2B in the AL and 5 of the top 6 3B in the AL.

It's 2012. This is the American League. You need to score runs. I'm not saying you have to ignore defense at all costs, but you cannot expect to win games when 6 of your 9 starters would probably be hitting 9th for any other contending team.

TDog
04-02-2012, 06:15 PM
Which is kind of funny considering last year, both Beckham and Morel were among the least offensively capable players at their respective positions in the American League, while the 4 teams that went to the play-offs had 3 of the 4 best offensive 2B in the AL and 5 of the top 6 3B in the AL.

It's 2012. This is the American League. You need to score runs. I'm not saying you have to ignore defense at all costs, but you cannot expect to win games when 6 of your 9 starters would probably be hitting 9th for any other contending team.

If it were only about offense, Viciedo would have started at third base. Even Lillibridge might have started at third base. Maybe Viciedo would have started at third and Lillibridge would have started at second. Morel and Beckham are young players who are expected to improve with experience while already playing excellent defense. A team goes with players many times not knowing what numbers they will produce offensively because they know the players will grow and contribute. Even in the American League, preventing runs -- and you can't have strong pitching without strong infield defense -- is as important as scoring runs.

Many fans and many in the media questioned whether Ryne Sandberg after his second full season with the Cubs would ever hit. He seemed to be regressing offensively. He had an on-base percentage of only .316 in 1983, and wasn't hitting for power. In 1984, in two fewer games, Sandberg more than doubled his home run total from the previous season and hit more than he had previously hit in his career, two full seasons with the Cubs and 14 frustrating games with the Phillies. Both his on-base percentage and batting average were 50 points higher. He was named the NL MVP. The Cubs were starting Sandberg in 1984, not because of his offense but because while playing great defense at second, they believed he would improve offensively.

Teams don't start players according to what they have done, but according to what they believe the players will do to help the team, considering both offense and defense.

A. Cavatica
04-02-2012, 06:44 PM
This is goofy nonsense. Prospects fail all the time in the Major Leagues. Every team has a laundry list of "can't miss" superstars who never materialize to anything in the Majors.

Beckham is still making the league minimum, around $500 K this year. Dunn and Rios, two established veterans with many seasons of good results under their belts, are making a combined $26 M this season. They are killing the team right now. Teams can win when they get little offensive production and A+ defense out of their middle infielder who bats 9th. They can't win when 2 of their 3 main offensive cogs are struggling to hit the Mendoza line.

Just ask Aaron Rowand about the can't miss who replaced him...

RCWHITESOX
04-02-2012, 11:55 PM
Beckham and Morel are both excellent fielders and just maybe this year they will break out offensively. The Sox also have some good young arms so lets just see how the season goes. I'm sure Dunn and Rios will have turn around seasons and just maybe we and the so called experts will be surprised.

October26
04-03-2012, 08:29 AM
Beckham and Morel are both excellent fielders and just maybe this year they will break out offensively. The Sox also have some good young arms so lets just see how the season goes. I'm sure Dunn and Rios will have turn around seasons and just maybe we and the so called experts will be surprised.

:thumbsup: Love your positive energy!

:gosox:

doublem23
04-03-2012, 08:34 AM
If it were only about offense, Viciedo would have started at third base. Even Lillibridge might have started at third base. Maybe Viciedo would have started at third and Lillibridge would have started at second. Morel and Beckham are young players who are expected to improve with experience while already playing excellent defense. A team goes with players many times not knowing what numbers they will produce offensively because they know the players will grow and contribute. Even in the American League, preventing runs -- and you can't have strong pitching without strong infield defense -- is as important as scoring runs.

Great, and hey the Sox had one of the best defensive IF in the A.L. last year and it won them a whole 79 games in the biggest laughingstock of a division in baseball, so obviously you are sniffing up the right tree.

:bandance:

russ99
04-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Robin's had some interesting comments about the closer job saying it won't be announced until Opening Day.

Glad that he's not playing along with the press on this one...

Not sure if that means anything, but I'm openly cheering for Reed or Santiago, since Thornton is much more needed in the 8th.

KMcMahon817
04-03-2012, 02:20 PM
Robin's had some interesting comments about the closer job saying it won't be announced until Opening Day.

Glad that he's not playing along with the press on this one...

Not sure if that means anything, but I'm openly cheering for Reed or Santiago, since Thornton is much more needed in the 8th.
I hope he just goes with Reed from the get-go. He is the SOX closer for the next several years. Give him the job. As you said, we need Matt in the 8th.

TDog
04-03-2012, 03:03 PM
Great, and hey the Sox had one of the best defensive IF in the A.L. last year and it won them a whole 79 games in the biggest laughingstock of a division in baseball, so obviously you are sniffing up the right tree.

:bandance:

That has nothing to do with my point. Juan Uribe had an on-base percentage of .301 in 2005, when the AL Central was considered by many the strongest division in baseball. He started more than 140 games at shortstop, and he was one of the reasons the White Sox had the best record in the AL and won the World Series.

Unless you're fielding a fantasy team on paper, you don't look simply at offensive numbers to decide who your regulars will be. Morel wouldn't be starting for the Tigers, but Beckham might. The determination of who your regulars will be is made by a combination of factors, and with Beckham and Morel, you have to consider expected development with experience.

Even if you disagree with that being the way it should be, that is the way it is.

shingo10
04-03-2012, 03:34 PM
September come early?

I agree with many of you and would much rather see the young kids get a chance that look at tired old veterans who don't seem to have any room for growth (i.e. Bruney).

doublem23
04-03-2012, 03:35 PM
That has nothing to do with my point. Juan Uribe had an on-base percentage of .301 in 2005, when the AL Central was considered by many the strongest division in baseball. He started more than 140 games at shortstop, and he was one of the reasons the White Sox had the best record in the AL and won the World Series.

Unless you're fielding a fantasy team on paper, you don't look simply at offensive numbers to decide who your regulars will be. Morel wouldn't be starting for the Tigers, but Beckham might. The determination of who your regulars will be is made by a combination of factors, and with Beckham and Morel, you have to consider expected development with experience.

Even if you disagree with that being the way it should be, that is the way it is.

Yeah, nobody is arguing with that. It has nothing to do with the fact that Brent Morel and Gordon Beckham are not very good players.

KMcMahon817
04-03-2012, 03:53 PM
Yeah, nobody is arguing with that. It has nothing to do with the fact that Brent Morel and Gordon Beckham are not very good players.

Coming down a little harsh are we? I can see an arguement with Gordon, but a little quick on the Morel hate. He had a sub-par offensive year as a rookie, but a lot of people think he is a darkhorse candidate to breakout offensively in 2012. Let's give him another year.

Frater Perdurabo
04-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Yeah, nobody is arguing with that. It has nothing to do with the fact that Brent Morel and Gordon Beckham are not very good players.

Maybe we can get Joe Randa. After all, mediocre veterans are preferable to young players with potential, especially in a rebuilding year.

SCCWS
04-03-2012, 05:18 PM
The determination of who your regulars will be is made by a combination of factors, and with Beckham and Morel, you have to consider expected development with experience.

Even if you disagree with that being the way it should be, that is the way it is.

Beckham is entering year 4. In years 2 and 3, as he has gained experience, his average dropped 20 points each year. His RBI's have also dropped with his added experience. Now I think we all hope Walker was the problem and there will be a new Gordon. But if he struggles again, he needs to be the 5th infielder.

palehozenychicty
04-04-2012, 10:11 AM
Yeah, nobody is arguing with that. It has nothing to do with the fact that Brent Morel and Gordon Beckham are not very good players.

The jury is out on Beckham. That cannot be denied. He's still better than a guy like Betemit or any other old scrub.

Morel wasn't considered to be that much of a hitter anyway. He could break out, but if he doesn't, that's okay too.

doublem23
04-04-2012, 10:46 AM
The jury is out on Beckham. That cannot be denied. He's still better than a guy like Betemit or any other old scrub.

Morel wasn't considered to be that much of a hitter anyway. He could break out, but if he doesn't, that's okay too.

Honestly, IMO, of Beckham and Morel, I think Brent has the better chance to be the average everyday player. Morel's problem may be his athleticism and natural ability, but he seems to "get it" when he's at the plate. Beckham, for all his gifts, has looked hopelessly lost for going on two years now. Hoping to god that it was just Walk scrambling his brains, but I don't think, at this point, he would be starting for at least 10-15 teams. If he was on the Tigers, for instance, he's more likely to be their 5th IF than their starting 2B.

Maybe there's still time to save his career, but I'm not hopeful. Morel, I do think he could be coached up into a decent, unspectacular player.

palehozenychicty
04-04-2012, 10:48 AM
Honestly, IMO, of Beckham and Morel, I think Brent has the better chance to be the average everyday player. Morel's problem may be his athleticism and natural ability, but he seems to "get it" when he's at the plate. Beckham, for all his gifts, has looked hopelessly lost for going on two years now. Hoping to god that it was just Walk scrambling his brains, but I don't think, at this point, he would be starting for at least 10-15 teams. He definitely would be the 5th IF in Detroit.

Maybe there's still time to save his career, but I'm not hopeful. Morel, I do think he could be coached up into a decent, unspectacular player.

The dude is a mystery. I will give him two more years, including this one.

KMcMahon817
04-04-2012, 11:05 AM
The dude is a mystery. I will give him two more years, including this one.

Depends on what the SOX do this season, because the roster could look sigficicantly different next year depending on a few scenarios this season, but I'd say this is Gordon's last chance. And I am a fan of his.

Chez
04-04-2012, 11:44 AM
Honestly, IMO, of Beckham and Morel, I think Brent has the better chance to be the average everyday player. Morel's problem may be his athleticism and natural ability, but he seems to "get it" when he's at the plate. Beckham, for all his gifts, has looked hopelessly lost for going on two years now. Hoping to god that it was just Walk scrambling his brains, but I don't think, at this point, he would be starting for at least 10-15 teams. If he was on the Tigers, for instance, he's more likely to be their 5th IF than their starting 2B.

Maybe there's still time to save his career, but I'm not hopeful. Morel, I do think he could be coached up into a decent, unspectacular player.

I agree with the gist of your post, but the Tigers are planning to platoon Brandon Inge and Ryan Raburn at 2B this year (though Inge will start the season on the DL). I'll take Beckham over that platoon.

doublem23
04-04-2012, 12:51 PM
I agree with the gist of your post, but the Tigers are planning to platoon Brandon Inge and Ryan Raburn at 2B this year (though Inge will start the season on the DL). I'll take Beckham over that platoon.

Maybe, but I think he defensive versatility suits him better for a reserve role, especially on a team like Detroit that has a lot of firepower but questionable defense.

#1swisher
04-04-2012, 06:41 PM
Chicago White Sox

NEWS: Following today’s exhibition game, finalized the roster 4 Opening Day. The roster will include the following 25 players

Pitchers (12): Crain, Danks, Floyd, Humber, Jones, Ohman, Peavy, Reed, Sale, Santiago, Stewart & Thornton Catchers (2): Pierzynski & Flowers

Infielders (6): Beckham, Dunn, Escobar, Konerko, Morel & Alexei Ramirez. Outfielders (5): De Aza, Fukudome, Lillibridge, Rios and Viciedo.

guillensdisciple
04-04-2012, 07:08 PM
Will Fukudome have a starting role or a outfield sub role for Rios and viciedo?

DSpivack
04-04-2012, 07:26 PM
Will Fukudome have a starting role or a outfield sub role for Rios and viciedo?

Sub, most likely. Though Viciedo may sit against some of the toughest starters in favor of lefty Fukudome.