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Harry Chappas
03-28-2012, 11:29 AM
You can take this for what it's worth, but a friend of mine who has been reliable in the past and who I know for certain has contacts very high up in the Sox organization, told me that this will be Kenny's last year as the Sox GM. Apparently, he is loathed by ownership (outside of Reinsdorf).

The reason Rick Hahn hasn't explored other opportunities is because he has been told that he will succeed Kenny in 2013.

Anyway, please remove this post if I've unwittingly broken a board rule. I don't often have "inside" information - at least none that I share - but this seemed like it might be of interest to some on WSI.

kittle42
03-28-2012, 11:38 AM
I think most of us expect this will happen regardless of rumors.

jdm2662
03-28-2012, 11:41 AM
This wouldn't surprise me, either. His time has been up for a couple of years now.

Harry Chappas
03-28-2012, 12:25 PM
I think most of us expect this will happen regardless of rumors.

The obvious time to do this would have been last year. Letting Kenny name Ozzie's replacement could only be seen as a vote of confidence on the part of the Sox organization.

Many were disappointed that he wasn't also let go, but I don't think I've read anywhere that he is a goner at the end of this season. If anything, many figured that he was going to get a free pass if the team struggled because they were in a "rebuild" mode.

doublem23
03-28-2012, 12:58 PM
The obvious time to do this would have been last year. Letting Kenny name Ozzie's replacement could only be seen as a vote of confidence on the part of the Sox organization.

Many were disappointed that he wasn't also let go, but I don't think I've read anywhere that he is a goner at the end of this season. If anything, many figured that he was going to get a free pass if the team struggled because they were in a "rebuild" mode.

I doubt he's a goner, he's probably just going to get kicked upstairs and Hahn will take over as GM

The Immigrant
03-28-2012, 01:03 PM
The Sox have a large ownership group so it's not surprising that this kind of chatter gets out, but ultimately it's Reinsdorf's call. I expect Williams to stick around in some capacity.

KMcMahon817
03-28-2012, 01:11 PM
Lets see how the season goes first...

russ99
03-28-2012, 01:11 PM
As Jerry has the final say and thinks of Kenny as part of his family, I doubt this is set in stone, but I have to think that it depends on the results of this season.

Hahn would be a good rebuilding GM, Kenny likely would not.

A part of me would actually prefer Kenny to continue as GM after this year as he's not afraid of big moves towards contention, and I very much doubt that Hahn has the same pull with the Chairman when it comes time to make big moves and go for it.

shingo10
03-28-2012, 01:46 PM
The last thing this organization needs right now is more off the field drama. Hopefully this goes away quickly.

This year it would be nice if the Sox were about baseball.

Harry Chappas
03-28-2012, 01:56 PM
The last thing this organization needs right now is more off the field drama. Hopefully this goes away quickly.

This year it would be nice if the Sox were about baseball.

Keep in mind this was a private rumor shared with me. It's not as if this is out on Twitter or whatever so I doubt it's going to cause any "drama" - at least not compared to the KW/OG feud.

While Reinsdorf likely has the ultimate say, from what was described to me, it seems unlikely that he wouldn't at least consider the minority owners' opinions regarding GM. It also didn't sound like moving him up in the front office was in the cards, but we shall see.

Anyway, just thought I'd pass it along.

shingo10
03-28-2012, 02:10 PM
Keep in mind this was a private rumor shared with me. It's not as if this is out on Twitter or whatever so I doubt it's going to cause any "drama" - at least not compared to the KW/OG feud.


This is a good point you make. Its just that if you heard this now, then how long before some blowhole media source reports something like it? Of course the dynamics are different as you mentioned. Robin won't be adding fuel to the fire and playing up to the media.

sox230
03-28-2012, 03:47 PM
If this is true it is absolutely moronic and just goes to show you how dysfunctional our front office is. I'd love somebody to come up with one good reason why Kenny should be allowed to hire a new manager to a 3 year deal if he is gone after next year. Also, why would you give someone the power to start blowing up a team and "re-stocking" prospects if he's just going to be gone in a year. It's become very obvious to me that Reinsdorf does not have a good hold on running a baseball organization and he's damn lucky of the new CBA rules that reward people who are lazy and don't spend on the draft.

roylestillman
03-28-2012, 04:01 PM
If they are below .500 and the gate is off by more than 15%, I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny is gone by the All Star game. Not sure whether I'd keep Hahn around either at this point.

DirtySox
03-28-2012, 04:05 PM
If true, I sure hope that Hahn is the one who has been making the moves this offseason.

Harry Chappas
03-28-2012, 04:15 PM
If they are below .500 and the gate is off by more than 15%, I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny is gone by the All Star game. Not sure whether I'd keep Hahn around either at this point.

FWIW - according to this same source, the Sox lost about $7 million last season. Not great but not the end of the world either. With payroll cut, they'll need to draw around 1.7 - 1.8 million to "break even" this season.

He said that Hahn is extremely well liked by ownership and that the bad blood between Kenny and the group has reached the point that it is Hahn that handles all "diplomatic" functions between team management and the owners.

Again, you can take this for what it's worth (not much) but I agree on the point made about permitting Kenny to play such a central role in the hiring of the manager if it's true that he's on his way out. That's about the only thing that doesn't really "add up." Although it's possible that Ventura was approved by Hahn as well.

I have another friend who works at the Tribune and he's heard similar rumblings and from his own experiences with Kenny, he came away with a very negative opinion. That part should shock almost no one. While I loathe Joe Cowley and think he's a complete hack, there's some truth to the image he's painted of Kenny and his monstrous ego. I got the impression that the players aren't exactly fans either.

Oh well, none of this should impact this season but it'll be interesting to see any of this proves to be true.

Dibbs
03-28-2012, 05:26 PM
His time is up. I always liked Kenny, but I would now be happy to see him move on.

Brian26
03-28-2012, 08:38 PM
I've always wondered what the true shelf life for an ultra-competitive guy would be in a position like GM after reaching the pinnacle five years into his run. There has to be a mental and emotional letdown after finally winning the World Series, especially after so many of his early big-splash moves panned out.

I've always liked him, but, polar opposite to his confidence in his early trades (David Wells, Bartolo Colon, Freddy), Kenny just seems like a defeated man lately. So many of his moves over the last four or five years seem like acts of desperation rather than well-planned, orchestrated moves.

Hahn seems motivated and grounded. I think his time has come.

Frater Perdurabo
03-28-2012, 10:19 PM
I've always liked him, but, polar opposite to his confidence in his early trades (David Wells, Bartolo Colon, Freddy), Kenny just seems like a defeated man lately. So many of his moves over the last four or five years seem like acts of desperation rather than well-planned, orchestrated moves.

KW's heyday was 2003-2008. Most of his moves during that time worked out well, starting with the Esteban Loaiza signing and ending with the trade for Carlos Quentin. (The major exceptions would be Vazquez and the first Swisher trade.)

Most signings and trades after the 2008 season have been busts (second Swisher deal, Teahen, Peavy, Rios, Dunn), and many of the moves before 2003 were busts as well (Wells, Ritchie, Koch).

It's too early to tell on his moves from this offseason.

Brian26
03-28-2012, 10:56 PM
Most signings and trades after the 2008 season have been busts (second Swisher deal, Teahen, Peavy, Rios, Dunn), and many of the moves before 2003 were busts as well (Wells, Ritchie, Koch).


I appreciated the spirit behind the Wells trade.

His greatest trade was probably the Bartolo Colon deal before 2003. In terms of minimal talent given up (Biddle, Osuna and Leifer!) and the politics involved with the Yankees trying to block the Red Sox at the time by helping Kenny, that was amazing. Colon was a horse in 2003 and probably would have carried them through the playoffs if they could have made it through that Minnesota road-trip.

Frater Perdurabo
03-29-2012, 07:22 AM
I appreciated the spirit behind the Wells trade.

His greatest trade was probably the Bartolo Colon deal before 2003. In terms of minimal talent given up (Biddle, Osuna and Leifer!) and the politics involved with the Yankees trying to block the Red Sox at the time by helping Kenny, that was amazing. Colon was a horse in 2003 and probably would have carried them through the playoffs if they could have made it through that Minnesota road-trip.

So did I. The 2001 Sox needed an ace, and KW got a guy who had been one.

KW has always been aggressive, but after having been burned on the Wells, Ritchie and Koch deals, he started doing his homework. I think after 2008, he got lazy/reckless.

doublem23
03-29-2012, 08:57 AM
So did I. The 2001 Sox needed an ace, and KW got a guy who had been one.

KW has always been aggressive, but after having been burned on the Wells, Ritchie and Koch deals, he started doing his homework. I think after 2008, he got lazy/reckless.

Awfully easy accusation to make with the benefit of hindsight

Frater Perdurabo
03-29-2012, 10:15 AM
Awfully easy accusation to make with the benefit of hindsight

So should we ignore the results, to avoid having the benefit of hindsight?

People are judged on their track record. KW may have been the best GM of the 2003-2008 period. Only choke jobs on the field (2003), major injuries (2004), and an uncharacteristically bad second half by the starting rotation (2006) kept the Sox from four straight and 5/6 AL Central titles.

So I'm not being unfair to say that in comparison, KW got bad results before and after his excellent six-year run. I attribute his 2003-2008 success to being thorough and focused, and his lack of success outside of that to sloppiness.

doublem23
03-29-2012, 10:35 AM
So should we ignore the results, to avoid having the benefit of hindsight?

Saying his moves haven't worked out is one thing. Saying he's gotten "lazy" or he's "not trying" is something completely different.

jdm2662
03-29-2012, 10:36 AM
So should we ignore the results, to avoid having the benefit of hindsight?

People are judged on their track record. KW may have been the best GM of the 2003-2008 period. Only choke jobs on the field (2003), major injuries (2004), and an uncharacteristically bad second half by the starting rotation (2006) kept the Sox from four straight and 5/6 AL Central titles.

So I'm not being unfair to say that in comparison, KW got bad results before and after his excellent six-year run. I attribute his 2003-2008 success to being thorough and focused, and his lack of success outside of that to sloppiness.

I think your anaylsis is pretty fair, actually. When Williams did his homework and focused on building an entire team, he was a very good GM. But, I will add another factor. At times, he seemed to be full of himself and did moves just to stroke his ego. When he made moves just to make moves or splashes, per say, it didn't quite work out.

Milw
03-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Can someone explain to me what exactly "kicked upstairs" entails? I get that it would be a fancy new title and probably a salary raise, but what does it mean practically speaking? Is it essentially a figurehead position, or would KW still have a meaningful role in the organization, and what would that role be?

WhiteSox5187
03-29-2012, 11:13 AM
Can someone explain to me what exactly "kicked upstairs" entails? I get that it would be a fancy new title and probably a salary raise, but what does it mean practically speaking? Is it essentially a figurehead position, or would KW still have a meaningful role in the organization, and what would that role be?

It means you're fired but without the dirty work, you get a fancy new title and that's it. You can offer some input in moves but only if the GM seeks it. The White Sox did a similar thing to Roland Hemond when they brought in Hawk as GM.

Frater Perdurabo
03-29-2012, 12:35 PM
Saying his moves haven't worked out is one thing. Saying he's gotten "lazy" or he's "not trying" is something completely different.

I didn't say he's not trying. Lazy can mean he's not put as much thought into his recent big moves.

The big moves that haven't worked lately haven't worked because the players he acquired have manifested the same tendencies as they had previously - only to a greater degree.

What was the rap on Peavy? Injury prone. He's been MORE injured since joining the Sox.

What was the rap on Rios? Lazy. He's been MORE lazy with the Sox, especially in 2009 and 2011.

What was the rap on Dunn? He strikes out too much, especially with RISP. He did that to a greater extent than ever before with the Sox.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2012, 12:52 PM
White Sox 5187:

Not really. Roland was only around for a short time. Let's just say things weren't exactly peaches and cream between Roland and Hawk. Roland was looking for work the day after Hawk was named G.M. and he found it soon enough when he went to work for the commissioner's office.

To this day, Roland refuses to talk much about what happened although I know some of it from conversations with him.

Perhaps you're thinking more of when Kenny was named G.M. Kenny asked JR if he could hire Roland as a special advisor to him.

Lip

The Immigrant
03-29-2012, 12:57 PM
Can someone explain to me what exactly "kicked upstairs" entails? I get that it would be a fancy new title and probably a salary raise, but what does it mean practically speaking? Is it essentially a figurehead position, or would KW still have a meaningful role in the organization, and what would that role be?

Take a look at what the Bulls did with Paxson and Forman. My guess is there would be a similar arrangement with Williams and Hahn.

doublem23
03-29-2012, 01:00 PM
I didn't say he's not trying. Lazy can mean he's not put as much thought into his recent big moves.

The big moves that haven't worked lately haven't worked because the players he acquired have manifested the same tendencies as they had previously - only to a greater degree.

What was the rap on Peavy? Injury prone. He's been MORE injured since joining the Sox.

What was the rap on Rios? Lazy. He's been MORE lazy with the Sox, especially in 2009 and 2011.

What was the rap on Dunn? He strikes out too much, especially with RISP. He did that to a greater extent than ever before with the Sox.

Wow this is a lot of bull****.

There was no injury concern with Peavy. The injury he had when he was acquired was an isolated incident, but in the 6 years prior to his trade to Chicago, he averaged 30 starts per year for San Diego and 194 IP per seaon (topping 200 3x and his numbers are weighed down a bit because the Padres would shut him down late in the year when they were out of it). Oh yes, he won a Cy Young Award in there.

Dunn's rap was also he was a 40+ HR guy with an OBP in the .400 range for 11 years. I know people are stuck in the old foggy notion that strikeouts are worth like 2x the outs of a popfly but that really doesn't matter.

Here are some other "moves" KW made that could have easily gone wrong...

Jermaine Dye - The rap on him - INJURY PRONE

AJ Pierzynski - The rap on him - CLUBHOUSE CANCER

Jose Contreras - The rap on him - NO MENTAL TOUGHNESS

Look, again, if you want to pretend to be a big man and thump your chest because KW's moves haven't panned out lately and use 20/20 hindsight as your evidence, that's fine, but calling the guy lazy just because everything that could go wrong recently has, is being equally lazy.

Moses_Scurry
03-29-2012, 01:39 PM
Wow this is a lot of bull****.

There was no injury concern with Peavy. The injury he had when he was acquired was an isolated incident, but in the 6 years prior to his trade to Chicago, he averaged 30 starts per year for San Diego and 194 IP per seaon (topping 200 3x and his numbers are weighed down a bit because the Padres would shut him down late in the year when they were out of it). Oh yes, he won a Cy Young Award in there.

Dunn's rap was also he was a 40+ HR guy with an OBP in the .400 range for 11 years. I know people are stuck in the old foggy notion that strikeouts are worth like 2x the outs of a popfly but that really doesn't matter.

Here are some other "moves" KW made that could have easily gone wrong...

Jermaine Dye - The rap on him - INJURY PRONE

AJ Pierzynski - The rap on him - CLUBHOUSE CANCER

Jose Contreras - The rap on him - NO MENTAL TOUGHNESS

Look, again, if you want to pretend to be a big man and thump your chest because KW's moves haven't panned out lately and use 20/20 hindsight as your evidence, that's fine, but calling the guy lazy just because everything that could go wrong recently has, is being equally lazy.

I agree with most of this. The pre-2005 moves had as much to be skeptical about as the moves before and after. He just hit on almost all of his moves at the same time. I'll add a couple:

Podsednik - had a bad sophomore year after a good rookie year. had injury issues.

Iguchi - No track record and wasn't really a highly sought after Japanese player like Ichiro or either Matsui

El Duque - Old and never really was spectacular

Garcia - product of Safeco and the King Dome

I think the Alex Rios move stunk from day one, and I bet if you look at the posts in that thread, you'll see a lot of people feeling the same way. His contract was one along with Vernon Wells that many posters here and elsewhere used as examples to make fun of the sad state of the Toronto Bluejays. Then Kenny goes and relieves them of Rios. I hated it then, and I hate it now.

I also feel like I remember Peavy having some minor arm problems the season before the Sox acquired him, but it wasn't anything that held him out very much.

Nellie_Fox
03-29-2012, 02:14 PM
Dunn's rap was also he was a 40+ HR guy with an OBP in the .400 range for 11 years. I know people are stuck in the old foggy notion that strikeouts are worth like 2x the outs of a popfly but that really doesn't matter.I'm assuming you mean "old fogy." Once again, you raise a "false dichotomy." The option isn't between strikeout and popout, it's between strikeout and not a strikeout." "Not a strikeout" includes a walk, a hit, an error, or some other form of out, some of which advance runners. "Not a strikeout" is vastly preferable to a strikeout over the course of a season.

doublem23
03-29-2012, 02:37 PM
I'm assuming you mean "old fogy." Once again, you raise a "false dichotomy." The option isn't between strikeout and popout, it's between strikeout and not a strikeout." "Not a strikeout" includes a walk, a hit, an error, or some other form of out, some of which advance runners. "Not a strikeout" is vastly preferable to a strikeout over the course of a season.

I'd hope we'd all learn to live with it for 40 HR and an OBP approach .400.

TomBradley72
03-29-2012, 04:39 PM
Wow this is a lot of bull****.

There was no injury concern with Peavy. The injury he had when he was acquired was an isolated incident, but in the 6 years prior to his trade to Chicago, he averaged 30 starts per year for San Diego and 194 IP per seaon (topping 200 3x and his numbers are weighed down a bit because the Padres would shut him down late in the year when they were out of it). Oh yes, he won a Cy Young Award in there.

Dunn's rap was also he was a 40+ HR guy with an OBP in the .400 range for 11 years. I know people are stuck in the old foggy notion that strikeouts are worth like 2x the outs of a popfly but that really doesn't matter.

Here are some other "moves" KW made that could have easily gone wrong...

Jermaine Dye - The rap on him - INJURY PRONE

AJ Pierzynski - The rap on him - CLUBHOUSE CANCER

Jose Contreras - The rap on him - NO MENTAL TOUGHNESS

Look, again, if you want to pretend to be a big man and thump your chest because KW's moves haven't panned out lately and use 20/20 hindsight as your evidence, that's fine, but calling the guy lazy just because everything that could go wrong recently has, is being equally lazy.

No- the previous points were NOT bull****.

Peavy was in decline and injury prone- there were big questions at the time including moving from Petco/NL to USCF/AL.

Dunn hit below .200 vs. LH's in 2010 and had a very mediocre 2nd half that year- and a very low career BA (.220's) w/RISP- and the same concerns of possibly beginning to decline and how he would do going from the NL to the AL as well as moving to the DH role where he had expressed such big concerns. On top of that we had just let Thome go 12 months earlier to move away from the DH only model so the move was an example of a lack of long term strategy/philosophy for the club. Especially with a great DH prospect like Viciedo waiting in the wings.

It's not hindsight- just reviewing stats on mlb.com at the time of each trade pointed these out.

doublem23
03-29-2012, 04:48 PM
No- the previous points were NOT bull****.

Peavy was in decline and injury prone- there were big questions at the time including moving from Petco/NL to USCF/AL.

Dunn hit below .200 vs. LH's in 2010 and had a very mediocre 2nd half that year- and a very low career BA (.220's) w/RISP- and the same concerns of possibly beginning to decline and how he would do going from the NL to the AL as well as moving to the DH role where he had expressed such big concerns. On top of that we had just let Thome go 12 months earlier to move away from the DH only model so the move was an example of a lack of long term strategy/philosophy for the club. Especially with a great DH prospect like Viciedo waiting in the wings.

It's not hindsight- just reviewing stats on mlb.com at the time of each trade pointed these out.

Every player is going to come with concerns, but the idea that the Sox should have not pulled the trigger on the Peavy trade (which cost us nothing) or Dunn (a year after watching the ridiculous Kotsay/Jones/DH cluster**** - one of chief reasons we missed the playoffs in 2010) is viewing things hindsight only. I get that there are some people who swung in the dark and "were right" that things haven't worked for them, but pretty much any respected opinion at the time was in huge favor of those moves. Sometimes the right moves just don't work.

And calling Dayan a "great" prospect is more all over the place kind of thinking. He's been on the BA Top 100 list once, pre-1999 before anyone saw him play in America.

russ99
03-29-2012, 05:02 PM
Every player is going to come with concerns, but the idea that the Sox should have not pulled the trigger on the Peavy trade (which cost us nothing) or Dunn (a year after watching the ridiculous Kotsay/Jones/DH cluster**** - one of chief reasons we missed the playoffs in 2010) is viewing things hindsight only. I get that there are some people who swung in the dark and "were right" that things haven't worked for them, but pretty much any respected opinion at the time was in huge favor of those moves. Sometimes the right moves just don't work.

And calling Dayan a "great" prospect is more all over the place kind of thinking. He's been on the BA Top 100 list once, pre-1999 before anyone saw him play in America.

Also, there's no such thing as a "DH prospect".

I can't think of anyone who was groomed into the role from the minors. Even guys like David Ortiz or if we want to go with a lesser guy, Jack Cust played the field when they first broke into the league. DH is a role experienced hitters end up in if they are poor fielders.

Frater Perdurabo
03-29-2012, 05:42 PM
"Risky" moves like Dye, AJ, Contreras and Garcia didn't cost megamillions over long-term contracts.

Nellie_Fox
03-29-2012, 05:58 PM
I'd hope we'd all learn to live with it for 40 HR and an OBP approach .400.They're not necessarily mutually-exclusive concepts, but I'll be absolutely stunned to see him approach 40 and .400.

WhiteSox5187
03-29-2012, 06:06 PM
White Sox 5187:

Not really. Roland was only around for a short time. Let's just say things weren't exactly peaches and cream between Roland and Hawk. Roland was looking for work the day after Hawk was named G.M. and he found it soon enough when he went to work for the commissioner's office.

To this day, Roland refuses to talk much about what happened although I know some of it from conversations with him.

Perhaps you're thinking more of when Kenny was named G.M. Kenny asked JR if he could hire Roland as a special advisor to him.

Lip

I recall reading an old SI article that said the White Sox "kicked Roland upstairs" and he promptly resigned and took a job with the commissioner's office and then the Orioles. But it wasn't an out and out firing. I don't know that Jerry has ever out and out fired someone.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2012, 07:23 PM
White Sox 5187:

To me this is a matter of semantics. As I see it and as I've been told, when you "relieve, replace, kick upstairs" the guy who ran the franchise for 15 years in favor of a broadcaster with zero experience in such matters, that sounds like a firing to me even if it wasn't called that for the news media.

Lip

dickallen15
03-29-2012, 07:53 PM
So did I. The 2001 Sox needed an ace, and KW got a guy who had been one.

KW has always been aggressive, but after having been burned on the Wells, Ritchie and Koch deals, he started doing his homework. I think after 2008, he got lazy/reckless.
Wells he really didn't get burned on. He gave up basically nothing. Sirotka never pitched again, and Brian Simmons actually came back to the Sox after being released. The Ritchie trade was bad, but again, it really didn't hurt the Sox that much because Fogg, Lowe and even Wells weren't exactly spectacular, although Wells would have fit in nicely in 2003-4 as a 5th starter. If he didn't make the Koch trade, he may have won the WS a couple years earlier, although Koch did also come with Neal Cotts who did help the team win a WS, so it wasn't that awful I suppose.

I'm just sick of hearing "as long as I sit in this chair". Usually when he says it, he's standing up.

Brian26
03-29-2012, 08:31 PM
And calling Dayan a "great" prospect is more all over the place kind of thinking. He's been on the BA Top 100 list once, pre-1999 before anyone saw him play in America.

He was listed on the Top 100 when he was in Cuban Little League? :nuts: :haddock:

DSpivack
03-29-2012, 09:59 PM
White Sox 5187:

To me this is a matter of semantics. As I see it and as I've been told, when you "relieve, replace, kick upstairs" the guy who ran the franchise for 15 years in favor of a broadcaster with zero experience in such matters, that sounds like a firing to me even if it wasn't called that for the news media.

Lip

I agree with that--that I could see KW still having some management role with the White Sox even if "kicked upstairs."

But I can also see something more similar to the Bulls, where Gar Forman is the GM running more day to day matters, with former GM and current President John Paxson overseeing Forman. The Sox WillHahn to the Bulls' GarPax, if you will.

RKMeibalane
03-29-2012, 11:33 PM
I agree with that--that I could see KW still having some management role with the White Sox even if "kicked upstairs."

But I can also see something more similar to the Bulls, where Gar Forman is the GM running more day to day matters, with former GM and current President John Paxson overseeing Forman. The Sox WillHahn to the Bulls' GarPax, if you will.

But will he still be permitted to tip over buffet tables in the Sox clubhouse?

BainesHOF
03-30-2012, 02:38 AM
It's interesting to read this stuff. Maybe Williams knows he's heading out the door. He gives me that impression these days.

I can vouch for Hemond not being a fan of Hawk or, for that matter, Harry Caray.

tick53
03-30-2012, 02:48 AM
The sooner he's gone, the better. I would have much rather seen him gone than Ozzie.

shingo10
03-30-2012, 10:07 AM
"Risky" moves like Dye, AJ, Contreras and Garcia didn't cost megamillions over long-term contracts.

Unfortunately the market these days is such that guys like Rios and Dunn are quite pricey. Some other team would have gladly paid what we are for Dunn (at the time). He was going to get a big contract. Rios already had the big contract. But teams like Toronto needed to overpay guys like him and Wells to try to compete in the East. Obviously that didn't work so well.

Taliesinrk
03-30-2012, 05:09 PM
He was listed on the Top 100 when he was in Cuban Little League? :nuts: :haddock:

I thought the same thing... I guess we'll assume he meant 2009? Maybe he just forgot what decade it is?

doublem23
03-30-2012, 05:16 PM
I thought the same thing... I guess we'll assume he meant 2009? Maybe he just forgot what decade it is?

Whoops, yeah I meant 2009; too much time spent looking over stats from the late-90s, early-00s

A. Cavatica
03-31-2012, 10:58 AM
KW's heyday was 2003-2008. Most of his moves during that time worked out well, starting with the Esteban Loaiza signing and ending with the trade for Carlos Quentin. (The major exceptions would be Vazquez and the first Swisher trade.)

Most signings and trades after the 2008 season have been busts (second Swisher deal, Teahen, Peavy, Rios, Dunn), and many of the moves before 2003 were busts as well (Wells, Ritchie, Koch).

It's too early to tell on his moves from this offseason.

If he did so well from 2005-2008, how did the Sox go in the tank so quickly after 2005?

balke
03-31-2012, 11:21 AM
I'd hope we'd all learn to live with it for 40 HR and an OBP approach .400.

I'd be using some deep pink there. Non in the NL anymore, it's been 3 years since he hit 40 HR, and he was a few AB away from having one of the worst seasons of all time just last year.

balke
03-31-2012, 11:25 AM
Peavy was in decline and injury prone- there were big questions at the time including moving from Petco/NL to USCF/AL.



The Sox were getting knocked constantly for not having an "ace". The Sox took a shot on what didn't look like that bad of a deal. It looked like there was a chance it could go this way, but the reward v. that risk was overwhelming. If Jake was doing what he does - this whole team and past couple seasons would look completely different.

mzh
03-31-2012, 12:09 PM
I'd be using some deep pink there. Non in the NL anymore, it's been 3 years since he hit 40 HR, and he was a few AB away from having one of the worst seasons of all time just last year.
Somehow I think we would manage to live with the meager 38 HR that he put up two years in a row before last year.

balke
03-31-2012, 01:01 PM
Somehow I think we would manage to live with the meager 38 HR that he put up two years in a row before last year.

I'd not only live - but be shocked if he hits more than 32.

doublem23
03-31-2012, 01:41 PM
I'd be using some deep pink there. Non in the NL anymore, it's been 3 years since he hit 40 HR, and he was a few AB away from having one of the worst seasons of all time just last year.

Oh yeah, I don't expect him to hit anywhere near that number, I'm just saying, I know damn well if Dunn hit .250/.380/.520 with 40 HR (his 162 game average prior to 2011), there would still be people bitching because he'll strike out 180 times.

Daver
03-31-2012, 01:48 PM
there would still be people bitching because he'll strike out 180 times.

The same people will be thrilled if Viciedo only strikes out that many times.

Tragg
03-31-2012, 04:36 PM
Why is Hahn held in such high regard?
Not suggesting he shouldn't be, just wondering what he is.

shingo10
03-31-2012, 09:29 PM
Why is Hahn held in such high regard?
Not suggesting he shouldn't be, just wondering what he is.

Because he is not Kenny Williams and because he is a schmoozer on his radio/tv appearances. He doesn't have the chip on his shoulder that Kenny always seems to have. Which in my personal opinion is why I like Kenny so much. He is passionate about making the Sox better. Doesn't always work but he sure gives a damn.

Frater Perdurabo
03-31-2012, 09:53 PM
Oh yeah, I don't expect him to hit anywhere near that number, I'm just saying, I know damn well if Dunn hit .250/.380/.520 with 40 HR (his 162 game average prior to 2011), there would still be people bitching because he'll strike out 180 times.

If Dunn does that these next three years I will reassess my stated opinion of KW. :P

soxfanreggie
04-01-2012, 01:21 AM
If Dunn does that these next three years I will reassess my stated opinion of KW. :P

Peavy, Rios, and Dunn will likely be the key cogs in the KW decision. Our biggest deals as of late, besides Danks, will likely make or break him.

We'll see what happens after the first couple months!

TheVulture
04-01-2012, 04:16 PM
I'd hope we'd all learn to live with it for 40 HR and an OBP approach .400.

That would certainly be easier to live with than 12 homeruns and an OBP approaching .280.

Broccoli Rob
04-01-2012, 05:47 PM
Because he is not Kenny Williams and because he is a schmoozer on his radio/tv appearances. He doesn't have the chip on his shoulder that Kenny always seems to have. Which in my personal opinion is why I like Kenny so much. He is passionate about making the Sox better. Doesn't always work but he sure gives a damn.

Sox have the third biggest market in the country, I think? And have gained nothing market wise, despite their World Series win in 2005. Why? KW has managed to maintain the south side creed that they are a lone star and everyone is against them in a time when the Cubs have failed hilariously and the city of Chicago was open for the taking. Under the radar was cute in 2004; now it's just stupid.

I think a schoomzer is exactly what the Sox need at this point.

DumpJerry
04-01-2012, 07:24 PM
For those of you who are not clear by what it means to be "kicked upstairs," here is the transcript from the October7, 1978 Weekend Update. Jane Curtin starts out with the definition.

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/78/78aupdate.phtml

If could see the actual broadcast, her body language is fantastic.....