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View Full Version : Does Frank Thomas deserve a break?


Keystone Combo
07-21-2002, 06:13 PM
Frank Thomas has made a career out of hitting. True he played first base for a short time but with Paul Konerko now doesn't have to. In the American League we have a DH so Frank's fielding abilities have nothing to do with his worth.

The question I ask is does Frank Thomas deserve more of a break than he is now getting? Is Frank the reason the team is so underachieving? Is Frank the cancer in the clubhouse or is the cancer the guys that are getting paid to hit that are in the field and not making the plays and running the bases so poorly. The cancer is in an underachieving team of players with a coaching staff with a manager and a general manager who are way to laid back for this team.

Frank only played 22 games last season, doesn't he deserve a season to try to get it back together? Instead he is being jumped on by Sox fans no less who even want to adopt the Cubs slogan of "The Big Skirt"....... so much for hating the Cubs and White Sox loyalty to one of it's players who holds many White Sox records and deserves more respect and confidence in his coming back. :hurt In a way it seems like some fans want him to fail...... hard to believe. How do you feel about it all?

Ol Aches & Pains
07-21-2002, 06:54 PM
Frank Thomas is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with the players of today. He wants to be treated like a superstar, but he's playing like a journeyman who should be making 1/10th the salary.

How in the hell did he forget how to hit? He was the best all-around hitter in the game 9-10 years ago. Now he takes called third strikes every night, he jumps out of the way of pitches that break right over the plate, what the hell happened? :?:

They should trade him tomorrow if anybody will take him. I believe his attitude is poisoning the clubhouse, he can't play in the field, and now he can't hit anymore, either. Might as well make Jeff Leifer or Carlos Lee the DH, since they can't play defense, either.

Kilroy
07-21-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains
How in the hell did he forget how to hit? He was the best all-around hitter in the game 9-10 years ago. Now he takes called third strikes every night, he jumps out of the way of pitches that break right over the plate, what the hell happened? :?:


Hmm, I don't know, maybe a year off and serious injury had something to do with it? Can we actually think of any other baseball player that had a ripped tricep?? If we could, maybe we could measure Frank's return following the injury against that players. But there is no measurning stick is there? Pitchers usually take a full season to recover from arm/shoulder surgery. So maybe it will take time for Thomas to recover.

Thomas was the best all-round hitter in the game as recently as 2 years ago. But hitting is mental as well as mechanical, and if both of those are screwed up, it could take a while to get rid of bad mechanics, and then be mentally ready to hit. If Thomas is in the box thinking about the mechanics of his swing, he's got a problem.

In short, yes, he deserves our patience. Seems like a whole lot of people were standing in that Trade-Thomas line until 2000. At the end of that season, that was a really, really short line.

Jerry_Manuel
07-21-2002, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Hmm, I don't know, maybe a year off and serious injury had something to do with it? Can we actually think of any other baseball player that had a ripped tricep?? If we could, maybe we could measure Frank's return following the injury against that players. But there is no measurning stick is there? So maybe it will take time for Thomas to recover.

In short, yes, he deserves our patience. Seems like a whole lot of people were standing in that Trade-Thomas line until 2000. At the end of that season, that was a really, really short line.

Didn't Mo Vaughn suffer the same injury? I'm not sure, maybe I'm thinking of him because his numbers have been similar to Franks'. Thomas wasn't hitting in the 2000 playoffs, nor was he hitting that well last year before the injury. Until he goes to see Hriniak he'll continue to struggle.

If they could move Frank, I wouldn't be against it. With yet another rebuilding plan about to begin next year, what's his purpose? By the time that young group can make some noise, Thomas may not be here anyway.

RKMeibalane
07-21-2002, 08:23 PM
I don't think Frank Thomas will be traded. The "diminished skills" clause in his contract does not take effect if he is traded, and most teams wouldn't want to pay him ten million dollars just to DH.

I also don't want to see him traded. It would be nice to see another star player finish his career with one team, especially since that rarely happens anymore. This enormous amount of player movement is one of the things that is killing baseball as we know it. It is because of free-agency and trades that so many players are demanding top dollar from big-market teams. They know that one team doesn't give them what they want, chances are, someone else will be interested.

Take Jason Giambi, for example. He wanted the Athletics to insert a "no-trade" clause into his contract, but they refused to do so. What happened? Giambi "jumped ship" and took the most lucrative offer he could find- the Yankees, of course.

Back in 1998, Kevin Brown helped lead a Padres team to the World Series. In the offseason, the Padres did not try to resign him because they didn't have the money. What did he do? He went to LA and signed for $105 million.

There is no loyalty in sports these days, and it works both ways. Many times, players leave in order to find more money. Other times, a particular owner manages to piss off a marquee player, and that player goes somewhere else, usually where he can still find more money, as well as his own twisted version of respect.

Spiff
07-21-2002, 08:28 PM
he's been good the last 10 games or so, not that it matters anymore.....

Kilroy
07-21-2002, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Spiff
he's been good the last 10 games or so, not that it matters anymore.....

It matters. If he can keep it up, maybe he'll get that swagger back at the plate. Part of what made him dangerous was the feeling of being in control, and he hasn't had that for a long while...

Daver
07-21-2002, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


It matters. If he can keep it up, maybe he'll get that swagger back at the plate. Part of what made him dangerous was the feeling of being in control, and he hasn't had that for a long while...

What made Thomas dangerous was the fact that the pitchers feared him,when he can get his swing back in order he will regain that edge,a pitcher throwing scared,or having to overthink every pitch they throw till they make the mistakes that can be taken advantage of.

Tragg
07-21-2002, 10:43 PM
Yes he deserves our patience. For one thing, he's been one of the top 5 hitters in baseball for most of the past 12 seasons. We're not going anywhere this year -he COULD recover the swagger with more work (in contrast to some players we keep throwing out there who never had any swagger to recoup). He's really untradable contract wise, and even if traded, the return would be minimal. So, yes, let him try to work things out.

mrwag
07-21-2002, 10:44 PM
We need to keep the guy. We know what he can do, I just think everyone needs to cut him some slack. I think missing an entire season at the major league level is huge. Hell, maybe he should have played a few months in Charlotte to get his swagger back.

I think everyone is on Frank this year because of the overall acheivements this club has made. If we were playing winning/smart baseball, Frank's lack of hitting wouldn't be glaring. As it is, everyone around Frank is stinking the place up, so he gets a great deal of critisism. I think Paulie stepped out of line too. Everyone needs to chill. Let's lay blame where it is due, and let Frank regain his stroke.

viagracat
07-21-2002, 11:24 PM
I know, I know Frank is THE Sox superstar of the 1990s, but this is the 21st century now. I'm tired of his whining and complaining whenever things don't EXACTLY go his way. When you're in a 1 for 30 slump of whatever it was, you're going to sit. Manuel has to play the guys who give the team the best chance to win and when you're not getting it done, you get splinters in your ass, you know what I mean? A real team member would not like being benched, but would keep it in the house. If someone wants to take Frank for some pitching prospects, I say go ahead!

StepsInSC
07-22-2002, 12:20 AM
How in the hell did he forget how to hit? He was the best all-around hitter in the game 9-10 years ago. Now he takes called third strikes every night, he jumps out of the way of pitches that break right over the plate, what the hell happened?

HE RIPPED A FREAKING TRICEP! Do you understand that the tricep is THE single most important muscle in swinging a bat, he couldn't brush his freaking teeth with that hand yet alone swing a bat for a while!

They should trade him tomorrow if anybody will take him. I believe his attitude is poisoning the clubhouse, he can't play in the field, and now he can't hit anymore, either. Might as well make Jeff Leifer or Carlos Lee the DH, since they can't play defense, either.

He's ALWAYS had a bad attitude, who cares. Lots of great players have bad attitudes. He has always been a selfish player, in the 90s he used to keep up with his own stats religiously. But by him being so obsessed with his own stats, he was able to contribute more.

Thomas wasn't hitting in the 2000 playoffs

He went 0 for 9. ONLY NINE AT BATS, remember, they got swept in 3. It was only his second playoff appearance and you're implying that if he couldn't suceed in those 9 at bats then he can't suceed in the playoffs period? Before we go blaming those losses on him, lets look back at how some other hitters did in those 3 games vs. Seattle.

Konerko: 0 for 9
Ordonez: 2 for 11 (.182)

Yeah, you're right. Neither of them can contribute in the PS get rid of them too. Thomas did hit like .353 in his first postseason appearance in '93....

Thomas also just had a career year in 2000...there's no way he's going to continue to slump two years after that. Bonds had a poor year in 1999 for him, but look how he rebounded, and he's several years older than Frank. For a baseball player, Frank is a young dude. This isn't the NFL.

I think the man who is #5 all time in career on base percentage, #11 all time in career slugging, #8 all time in career OPS, and the only man in the history of the game to hit at least 20 HRs, drive in 100 RBIs, score 100 runs, hit over .300, and draw 100 walks seven years in a row deserves a shot to rebound from THE MOST SERIOUS INJURY a pure hitter can face. Its like a cyclist breaking his leg and then people expecting him to be able to pedal shortly after.

And I say who gives a **** about attitude! Bonds has a crappy attitude, but he puts up numbers despite not getting along with guys like Kent, who dislike him because he's lazy as far as stuff like hustling is concerned.

Daver
07-22-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC




And I say who gives a F*CK about attitude! Bonds has a crappy attitude, but he puts up numbers despite not getting along with guys like Kent, who dislike him because he's lazy as far as stuff like hustling is concerned.

Hey Steps,we had a long drawn out argument about bypassing the language filters,consider this your only warning.

hsc1
07-22-2002, 01:08 AM
HE RIPPED A FREAKING TRICEP! Do you understand that the tricep is THE single most important muscle in swinging a bat, he couldn't brush his freaking teeth with that hand yet alone swing a bat for a while!



steps you may hvae something there... mo vaughn had the same injury last season and hes batting right about where frank is...mo's avg. is slightly higher than franks but frank has a bit more than mo in rbi's and homers are about the same.....so there is something to be said for the injury and the recovery time i suppose.....so i would give in for frank on that much.....the attitude thing though i cut him no slack what so ever on.....it just plain out stinks..... i never have liked it and never will....

Keystone Combo
07-22-2002, 01:48 AM
One bad season, 1999 (.305 74 Runs 15 Homeruns 77 RBI 87 Walks) and he followed that in 2000 with (.328 115 Runs 43 Homeruns 143 RBI 112 Walks) what should have been another MVP to add to his 2 he already has.

He ripped his tricep in 2001 and played only 20 games. Now shouldn't we all just wake up and smell the coffee....... if he came back in 2000 with a vengence than why can't he come back with another vengence next season?

Frank is not much different with his attitute than just about anybody else's attitute if you were in his shoes and were being blamed for what has happened this season.

Maggs and Konerko are doing well, now we need to get Frank back and than we will have something really special. By the way both of these players have a long way to go to do the things that Frank has already done for White Sox fans.

Carlos Lee should go...... Jose Valentin should go.......... Royce Clayton should go...... Sandy Alomar should go...... but Frank Thomas should have every opportunity to complete his playing career here in Chicago on the southside. I feel bigger numbers will return for THE BIG HURT.

Please no more Cub nonsense, no more throwing baseballs back onto the field and NO MORE CALLING FRANK NAMES LIKE (the big skirt) lets give him the respect his numbers deserve.

I may be wrong on this one but the injury may be also had by Jeff Bagwell......... Jeff himself said that people don't realize how hard it is to return from an injury of this magnitute and he also said that Frank deserves the respect he has earned with the numbers he has put up in the past and we have to realize that he is dealing with the hard comeback to what he once had, respect.

Nellie_Fox
07-22-2002, 03:38 AM
Wow, a lot of new posters on this thread. Welcome, one and all.

You folks know I am a Frank supporter. With the numbers he has put up over his career, he deserves better than having the fans bail on him this quickly. "What have you done for me lately" doesn't get it for me.

If you are going to abandon a superstar the first time he has a bad run, then don't complain about players who have no loyalty to the team they're on and only look forward to their next bite at the "free agent apple."

FarWestChicago
07-22-2002, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
If you are going to abandon a superstar the first time he has a bad run, then don't complain about players who have no loyalty to the team they're on and only look forward to their next bite at the "free agent apple." Excellent point, Nellie.

LongDistanceFan
07-22-2002, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Wow, a lot of new posters on this thread. Welcome, one and all.

You folks know I am a Frank supporter. With the numbers he has put up over his career, he deserves better than having the fans bail on him this quickly. "What have you done for me lately" doesn't get it for me.

If you are going to abandon a superstar the first time he has a bad run, then don't complain about players who have no loyalty to the team they're on and only look forward to their next bite at the "free agent apple." i agree

Keystone Combo
07-22-2002, 12:46 PM
Nellie I agree with you completely. Frank should get a much better response from White Sox fans, and they should stop letting what Flubbie fans say about Frank enter into their minds.

I can't stand hearing White Sox fans refer to Frank as the Big Skirt..... he is the White Sox and I have always been in his corner and will continue to be there. He has the numbers to earn all my respect and I know he will be back from this injury with a vengence....... just like he did in 2000 after his only bad season in 1999. He has too much pride in his game and his stats not to make it back. A few players on today's team could learn from Frank if they would just want to.

Nellie Fox was my favorite player since I was a boy, I became a fan at 9 in 1959. He never quit........ and neither will Frank.

Paulwny
07-22-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Keystone Combo
He has too much pride in his game and his stats not to make it back. .

This is why his refusal to talk to Hriniak is mind boggling. He's hurting himself and the team, I just don't understand what's he's thinking.

Keystone Combo
07-22-2002, 01:41 PM
Where did you hear that he refused to talk to Walt?

Paulwny
07-22-2002, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Keystone Combo
Where did you hear that he refused to talk to Walt?

Refuses may be the wrong word, this is from 7/5/02, won't call Hriniak may have been better.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=12709&s=&perpage=15&pagenumber=1&display=show

Dadawg_77
07-22-2002, 02:17 PM
It just sounded like Frank didn't want to step on Ward's toes, or become to dependant on Walt. But maybe he did call him, what is he hitting in his last 10 games, .400 or something along those lines.

RKMeibalane
07-22-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


This is why his refusal to talk to Hriniak is mind boggling. He's hurting himself and the team, I just don't understand what's he's thinking.

Before the 2000 season, Frank took a great deal of crap from the media because he was working with Hriniak instead of Von Joshua. The Tribune ripped him to shreds, and the WGN News at Nine also made a big deal out of it. That is, strangely enough, how I first learned that he was working with Walt in the first place.

Paulwny
07-22-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
It just sounded like Frank didn't want to step on Ward's toes, or become to dependant on Walt. But maybe he did call him, what is he hitting in his last 10 games, .400 or something along those lines.

I think if Hriniak was helping we'd have heard about it, I don't think Frank's problems can be handled over the phone.

Paulwny
07-22-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


Before the 2000 season, Frank took a great deal of crap from the media because he was working with Hriniak instead of Von Joshua. The Tribune ripped him to shreds, and the WGN News at Nine also made a big deal out of it. That is, strangely enough, how I first learned that he was working with Walt in the first place.


I also remember the flak, it was discussed on this board. The sox gave permission to Frank the 1st time to work with Hriniak and Frank was proven right. I don't understand what the big deal is this time in not seeking Hriniak's help, except for offending Ward.

Jerry_Manuel
07-22-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I don't understand what the big deal is this time in not seeking Hriniak's help, except for offending Ward.

Maybe he doesn't want to upset the other players? If Frank gets to work with someone else, why can't Magglio? It could open up a can of worms. That's about all that I can think of. I'd love to see him talk to Walt.

Paulwny
07-22-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Maybe he doesn't want to upset the other players? If Frank gets to work with someone else, why can't Magglio? It could open up a can of worms. That's about all that I can think of. I'd love to see him talk to Walt.

I could be totally wrong but, didn't Frank have to pay for Hriniaks services? If so, then the other players shouldn't be upset.

Keystone Combo
07-22-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


Before the 2000 season, Frank took a great deal of crap from the media because he was working with Hriniak instead of Von Joshua. The Tribune ripped him to shreds, and the WGN News at Nine also made a big deal out of it. That is, strangely enough, how I first learned that he was working with Walt in the first place.



Who cares what the Flubs, the Tribune and WGN News Nine say or write about it.............. do you remember the season Hurt had in 2000, the season where they ripped him off by not giving him the MVP Award?

Shouldn't worry about what others will say about Frank because no matter what Frank does good or bad here in Chicago someone will always be finding something negative to say about him. I say hire Walt Hriniak now, and let Frank return to his form and who cares what Ward thinks....... he hasn't done anything for the offense since he took over anyway!!!

xil357
07-22-2002, 04:59 PM
Being a fan of Frank Thomas ever since he was drafted in 1989 -- and someone got his autograph the day he made his major league debut in 1990, I agree that Frank needs to work with Walt Hriniak ASAP.

If Reinsdorf (sp?) is serious about being willing to "trade all six Bulls championships for one World Series victory," he would pony up the cost of retaining Hriniak's services. (Struggling hitters like Carlos Lee and even Royce Clayton might benefit from Hriniak's tutelage, as well.)

Most teams have a pitching coach and a bullpen coach. Why not have two hitting coaches as well? There are more hitters on the average baseball team than pitchers. Why not give hitters the opportunity to choose which hitting coach to work with? This would allow more time for each player to get individualized attention from the hitting coach of his choice. Certainly a "one size fits all" approach of assuming that your one hitting coach can successfully work with each and every hitter is faulty.

If, after working with Hriniak, Thomas does not show significant improvement in his ability to make contact, his batting average and on-base percentage, and his ability to drive the ball to all fields (not necessarily more home runs but definitely more extra base hits of all sorts), then it is time to exercise the diminished skills clause.

Frank has had one great season out of the last five (2000). Of course, one (2001) was cut short due to the triceps injury. Still, 1998 and 1999 were not great campaigns by his standards -- even with Albert "Joey" Belle "protecting" him in the lineup in 98. According to the official White Sox site:

1998_ 35 doubles_ 25 homers .381 OBP_ .480 Slugging_ .265_average
1999_ 36_doubles 15 homers .414_OBP .471_Slugging .305_average
2000 44_doubles_ 43 homers .436_OBP .625_Slugging .328 average

In the 1991 through 1997 seasons, Frank never had fewer than 27 doubles, 24 homers, .439 OBP, .536 Slugging or a .308 average (even the strike-shortened 94 and 95 seasons). Most of these "lows" come from his first two seasons, as well.

Despite the fact that he does deserve a full season to recover from his triceps injury, and does deserve to work with Walk Hriniak, a return to his 2000 or pre-1998 form is less than likely.

Even if he returns to 98 or 99 form, which is more likely simply because that's his more recent norm, that kind of production is not justified for his huge salary, and his contract would hang around the team's neck like an albatross, preventing them from locking up Konerko, Maggs and Buherle long-term.

The point was made about Barry Bonds and how he has flourished in his late 30s. However, Bonds came into the majors as a relatively thin (but fast) player known more for his speed than his power. Since then, and with the help of diet supplements (and perhaps steroids), Bonds has added over 50 pounds of upper body muscle, accounting for his power surge, without sacrificing much speed. Also, consider than Bonds plays in the National League, where pitchers -- on the whole -- are not as good as American League pitchers (who have to face the DH and more offensive lineups), and calls home a stadium (Pac Bell) which is very friendly to left-handed hitters.

My point is not to diminish Bonds' achievements, but to compare/contrast him with the Big Hurt. Frank was drafted out of college, where he already had tremendous upper body strength from years of working out as both a baseball player and as a football player. The comparison between the two is misguided, as no one reasonably could expect Frank to add 50 more pounds of muscle to his 275 pound frame (at that point --325 -- he could play defensive end for the Bears!) Frank also plays his home games in Comiskey, which while it has smaller dimensions than Old Comiskey, is still not a "hitters' park."

I see no conceivable way for Frank to put up the power numbers like Bonds has. I hope that he would prove me wrong, though.

Here are the magic numbers (projected over a full season) I'd like to see Frank produce to convince me not to exercise the diminished skills clause:

35 doubles, 30 homers, .440 OBP, .600 Slugging, .325 average and 90 walks.

While still costly at his annual salary, these numbers (in the three hole) would go a long way toward winning back fans and winning more games.

To reiterate, Thomas deserved a chance to work with Hriniak for the rest of the season (if there is a "rest of the season"). If he doesn't show improvement, then it's time to cut bait and invest in the future.

Dadawg_77
07-22-2002, 05:26 PM
After the 1998 season, didn't Frank has a bone spur removed from his ankle, which I heard was rather large? I honestly think Frank can and will return to form he had in 2000.

RKMeibalane
07-22-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Keystone Combo




Who cares what the Flubs, the Tribune and WGN News Nine say or write about it.............. do you remember the season Hurt had in 2000, the season where they ripped him off by not giving him the MVP Award?

Shouldn't worry about what others will say about Frank because no matter what Frank does good or bad here in Chicago someone will always be finding something negative to say about him. I say hire Walt Hriniak now, and let Frank return to his form and who cares what Ward thinks....... he hasn't done anything for the offense since he took over anyway!!!

Calm down, dude. I completely agree with you. All I was saying was that Frank didn't want to work with Hriniak again because he was worried about more negative publicity. That's all.

RKMeibalane
07-22-2002, 07:10 PM
The bone spur was actually removed following the 1999 season, but you are correct. It was quite large. In fact, the White Sox team podiatrist said that in over twenty five years of practice (as of 2000), that was the largest such object he'd even seen. It was compared to a golf ball. Also, Frank had a corn on his "pinky toe" that was removed. It was filled with various neves and blood vessels.

Frank spent most of that season playing in regular tennis shoes. He wasn't able to wear baseball cleats because of his right foot.

Keystone Combo
07-22-2002, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


Calm down, dude. I completely agree with you. All I was saying was that Frank didn't want to work with Hriniak again because he was worried about more negative publicity. That's all.

Sorry you misunderstood me, I am not mad, passionate but not mad. I don't care what others think about it and Frank needs to do what he needs to do to turn this around for everybodies sake.

Dude, I'm not upset honestly. :D:

Ol Aches & Pains
07-22-2002, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by mrwag

I think everyone is on Frank this year because of the overall acheivements this club has made. If we were playing winning/smart baseball, Frank's lack of hitting wouldn't be glaring. As it is, everyone around Frank is stinking the place up, so he gets a great deal of critisism. I think Paulie stepped out of line too. Everyone needs to chill. Let's lay blame where it is due, and let Frank regain his stroke.

I'm on Frank because he's stinking up the joint, but still has a superstar attitude. When he was 1 for 31 and got benched, he should have come to the park early, taken extra batting practice, watched video of his at bats, worked with Ward, do something for God's sake! Instead, he sulks, shows up late and gets fined. He isn't a team player, he can't play defense, he can't run, all he can do is hit, and guess what? He can't do that anymore, either.

Konerko, in my opinion, was not out of line at all. He just said what everybody on the team was probably thinking. They're as fed up with him as the fans are.

Daver
07-22-2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Ol Aches & Pains



Konerko, in my opinion, was not out of line at all. He just said what everybody on the team was probably thinking. They're as fed up with him as the fans are.

Konerko was dead wrong in saying anything to the press,and he knows it.

Perhaps you are smarter than the collective that make up Baseball Prospectus,but they have agreed that Frank Thomas is probably a Hall of Fame type player.

Ol Aches & Pains
07-22-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by daver




Perhaps you are smarter than the collective that make up Baseball Prospectus,but they have agreed that Frank Thomas is probably a Hall of Fame type player.

If he retired now, I agree, he's a first ballot HOFer. If he hangs on another five years, doing nothing but designated hitting, and at a considerably diminished skill level, I think he'll have a hard time getting in.

doublem23
07-22-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Keystone Combo
In a way it seems like some fans want him to fail...... hard to believe. How do you feel about it all?

Any fans that want Frank to fail can shove it all the way to Wrigley Field. They're probably closet Cub fans anyways.

RKMeibalane
07-23-2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by doublem23


Any fans that want Frank to fail can shove it all the way to Wrigley Field. They're probably closet Cub fans anyways.

I couldn't agree more. I wonder where all of those Frank haters were tonight when he went yard. Hmmm...

Jerry_Manuel
07-23-2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I couldn't agree more. I wonder where all of those Frank haters were tonight when he went yard. Hmmm...

I'm not a Frank hater.

I'm a guy who wouldn't be upset if he was traded.

Keystone Combo
07-23-2002, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I'm not a Frank hater.

I'm a guy who wouldn't be upset if he was traded.


Oh yeah....... did you forget that Kenny Williams is doing the trades????
ouch........ .

RKMeibalane
07-23-2002, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I'm not a Frank hater.

I'm a guy who wouldn't be upset if he was traded.

I don't think it is possible to trade him with that contract of his.

Keystone Combo
07-23-2002, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The bone spur was actually removed following the 1999 season, but you are correct. It was quite large. In fact, the White Sox team podiatrist said that in over twenty five years of practice (as of 2000), that was the largest such object he'd even seen. It was compared to a golf ball. Also, Frank had a corn on his "pinky toe" that was removed. It was filled with various neves and blood vessels.

Frank spent most of that season playing in regular tennis shoes. He wasn't able to wear baseball cleats because of his right foot.

Actually the surgery took place during the 1999 season and Frank had played into September with several injuries..... from the 2002 media guide for the White Sox I found the following information which verified what I had suspected all along,

here it is: page 163 1999

"Batted above .300 (.305) for the eighth time in nine seasons, a 40 point improvement from 1998....season was cut short due to an injury to his right ankle which eventually required surgery..."
"last appearance came as a pinch hitter on 9/6-1 at Texas.... underwent season-ending surgery on his right ankle on 9/13...team podiatrist Dr. Lowell Scott Weil removed a spur from the ankle, a corn from his small toe and performed several other minor podiatric procedures...."

RKMeibalane
07-23-2002, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Keystone Combo


Actually the surgery took place during the 1999 season and Frank had played into September with several injuries..... from the 2002 media guide for the White Sox I found the following information which verified what I had suspected all along,

here it is: page 163 1999

"Batted above .300 (.305) for the eighth time in nine seasons, a 40 point improvement from 1998....season was cut short due to an injury to his right ankle which eventually required surgery..."
"last appearance came as a pinch hitter on 9/6-1 at Texas.... underwent season-ending surgery on his right ankle on 9/13...team podiatrist Dr. Lowell Scott Weil removed a spur from the ankle, a corn from his small toe and performed several other minor podiatric procedures...."

Thankyou. I didn't realize he'd had the surgery that soon after leaving the team. What really irritated me about that situation was that Manuel downplayed Frank's injury in order to make himself look better. The man is a worm. He needs to be fired.

Keystone Combo
07-23-2002, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


Thankyou. I didn't realize he'd had the surgery that soon after leaving the team. What really irritated me about that situation was that Manuel downplayed Frank's injury in order to make himself look better. The man is a worm. He needs to be fired.

You are right and I think all along some of the things that have happened to Frank may have been caused by improper guidance in certain situations. Like playing when he should of had surgery and putting up numbers that made him look bad.

All season long Frank has been hammered by the media, and the some fans as well (Flub fans for sure and some not so loyal to Frank Thomas fans afterall "What have you done for me lately?") Jerry Manual (worm) and Kenny Williams (dopey) should of been behind Frank and come out in support of him instead of hiding and letting the guy get blasted from all sides. Way to go, way to protect your players guys.

Frank is not getting a fair shake and shouldn't be blamed for the money he is making..... afterall this contract was a reward for what he had accomplished pre 1998 season and he has never quit trying but even the great players suffer through injuries and need some space to be able to come back. Let the man have his pride and White Sox fans let's give him 100% of our support because he is our guy!!!!!

bc2k
07-23-2002, 04:12 AM
Two pages of pro-Thomas propaganda! :angry:

Every fan should have a "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Baseball is a game. The goal is to win the World Series. Baseball, or sport, should not be home to "We support our Frankie no matter what" type garbage. That kind of blind support is for the handicapped and has no business in sport.

Someone from work returing from an accident should get your blind support. He deservers his job.

George Steinbrenner does not have the blind support of past players (Tino, O'Neill). And he wins the World Series pretty often. Honor your past great players with a speech, not with playing time. Be loyal to your players, but also to your fans. After all, they've been here before and will be here after that "superstar" is gone.

Dadawg_77
07-23-2002, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Two pages of pro-Thomas propaganda! :angry:

Every fan should have a "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Baseball is a game. The goal is to win the World Series. Baseball, or sport, should not be home to "We support our Frankie no matter what" type garbage. That kind of blind support is for the handicapped and has no business in sport.

Someone from work returing from an accident should get your blind support. He deservers his job.

George Steinbrenner does not have the blind support of past players (Tino, O'Neill). And he wins the World Series pretty often. Honor your past great players with a speech, not with playing time. Be loyal to your players, but also to your fans. After all, they've been here before and will be here after that "superstar" is gone.

But you can't turn on a guy as soon as he stumbles a little. Frank isn't the PR man in the world, but he is one of the best hitters in baseball history. His numbers rank up there with the Teddie Ballgames, Babes, Willie Mays, Barry Bond's of the world. Remeber, people didn't like Ted untill he left the Red Sox and they knew what they were missing. Also Frank is returning to his job after a accident.

Keystone Combo
07-23-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Two pages of pro-Thomas propaganda! :angry:

Every fan should have a "what have you done for me lately" mentality. Baseball is a game. The goal is to win the World Series. Baseball, or sport, should not be home to "We support our Frankie no matter what" type garbage. That kind of blind support is for the handicapped and has no business in sport.

Someone from work returing from an accident should get your blind support. He deservers his job.

George Steinbrenner does not have the blind support of past players (Tino, O'Neill). And he wins the World Series pretty often. Honor your past great players with a speech, not with playing time. Be loyal to your players, but also to your fans. After all, they've been here before and will be here after that "superstar" is gone.

Your attitude is really messed up here....... we are talking about a player who as short as 2 seasons ago should have been MVP in the AL but finished second to Jason Giambi.

His injury was a serious one......tricep muscle. Why can't you see that he is entitled to get the opportunity to return to himself..... doesn't that happen everyday throughout baseball. You are too busy blaming Thomas for the Sox woes this season...... that roster has 25 guys that can all look into the mirror and say I could have done better. By the way that includes All-Star Paul Konerko who should try to unite the team instead of divide it into pro-Frank and anti-Frank forces by making comments that should stay in the clubhouse.

All I am saying is Frank deserves the chance to come back with us and I don't want to see him come back with somebody else and have to hear you or anybody else say....... Kenny Williams did it again....... he got rid of Frank and didn't give him a chance to recover. Frank hasn't lost his ability to hit, and he is starting to come around now.......better things to come.

guillen4life13
07-23-2002, 01:21 PM
bc2k, here's the thing. i'm almost positive that you would be pissed to high hell if frank went to another team, hit .330 with a .490 obp, with 45 homers, 145 rbi.

and i'm not being specific to you (i'm just saying this cuz i'm sure that many of the people who don't support frank on these boards think the same way): the "trade the skirt" guys on these boards would probably deny that they said such things once he starts putting up those numbers in another uniform.

and one other thing. (i don't remember who said this) but gary ward I think has made a huge impact on paul konerko, and the two of them i think are able to function very well (if we still had von joshua i don't know if konerko would have broken out like he has this year).

i've said this before, but hriniak and thomas bond very well because of thomas' style of hitting (hitting on the front foot instead of the back foot). i don't know but I think that if hriniak became the regular hitting coach, guys like maggs and konerko might not benefit from the new teacher.

RKMeibalane
07-23-2002, 01:25 PM
Why am I not surprised that bc2k stuck his nose in this debate?

I think it should be clear now that Frank Thomas is not the reason for the Sox struggles. He has started to hit well now, and the team is still losing. That alone should prove what I have suspected all along- that this team, not Frank Thomas, needs an overhaul.

Take last night, for example. It wasn't Frank who gave up five runs in less than five innings of work. It wasn't Frank who gave up a three-run homerun to Dustin Mohr. There are so many things going wrong for the Sox. Frank alone can't fix the problems this team has. The only man who can do that just sits in his box and doesn't communicate with anyone. In the rare event that he does say anything, it's usually something to the effect of:

"This is your fault, fans. If you come to the park, I will spend money. But I won't waste my hard-earned cash on fans who complain about my state-of-the-art stadium. It's the best in the Majors."

Keystone Combo
07-23-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Why am I not surprised that bc2k stuck his nose in this debate?

I think it should be clear now that Frank Thomas is not the reason for the Sox struggles. He has started to hit well now, and the team is still losing. That alone should prove what I have suspected all along- that this team, not Frank Thomas, needs an overhaul.

Take last night, for example. It wasn't Frank who gave up five runs in less than five innings of work. It wasn't Frank who gave up a three-run homerun to Dustin Mohr. There are so many things going wrong for the Sox. Frank alone can't fix the problems this team has. The only man who can do that just sits in his box and doesn't communicate with anyone. In the rare event that he does say anything, it's usually something to the effect of:

"This is your fault, fans. If you come to the park, I will spend money. But I won't waste my hard-earned cash on fans who complain about my state-of-the-art stadium. It's the best in the Majors."

Thank you for being on the button!!! :smile:

bc2k
07-24-2002, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Keystone Combo


Your attitude is really messed up here....... we are talking about a player who as short as 2 seasons ago should have been MVP in the AL but finished second to Jason Giambi.

His injury was a serious one......tricep muscle. Why can't you see that he is entitled to get the opportunity to return to himself..... doesn't that happen everyday throughout baseball. You are too busy blaming Thomas for the Sox woes this season...... that roster has 25 guys that can all look into the mirror and say I could have done better. By the way that includes All-Star Paul Konerko who should try to unite the team instead of divide it into pro-Frank and anti-Frank forces by making comments that should stay in the clubhouse.

All I am saying is Frank deserves the chance to come back with us and I don't want to see him come back with somebody else and have to hear you or anybody else say....... Kenny Williams did it again....... he got rid of Frank and didn't give him a chance to recover. Frank hasn't lost his ability to hit, and he is starting to come around now.......better things to come.

A DH, especially one with Thomas' attitude, does not deserve the MVP over an everyday player and team leader. The numbers between Thomas and Giambi were so close that I have no problem giving the award to the better teammate and leader.

Thomas did have a serious tricep injury. So one could assume that he might have lost some of his power. Well since he just hit a 495 foot home run today, that means his power is back and is fully healed. He's out of excuses now.

I never solely blamed Thomas for the 2002 Sox season. But to echo your statement, he is one of 25 guys. One guy that isn't doing his job.

If Thomas leaves the Sox and puts up Ted Williams numbers with another team, I won't be bashing KW, I'll be praising him for freeing up 40+ million to sign the true leaders of the team; Konerko and Buehrle. Oh, speaking of the similarities between Thomas and Williams, when did Frank ever hit .406? Please don't disrespect Ted with comparisions like that.

Keystone Combo
07-24-2002, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


A DH, especially one with Thomas' attitude, does not deserve the MVP over an everyday player and team leader. The numbers between Thomas and Giambi were so close that I have no problem giving the award to the better teammate and leader.

Thomas did have a serious tricep injury. So one could assume that he might have lost some of his power. Well since he just hit a 495 foot home run today, that means his power is back and is fully healed. He's out of excuses now.

I never solely blamed Thomas for the 2002 Sox season. But to echo your statement, he is one of 25 guys. One guy that isn't doing his job.

If Thomas leaves the Sox and puts up Ted Williams numbers with another team, I won't be bashing KW, I'll be praising him for freeing up 40+ million to sign the true leaders of the team;
Konerko and Buehrle. Oh, speaking of the similarities between Thomas and Williams, when did Frank ever hit .406? Please don't disrespect Ted with comparisions like that.

Where do you see me talking about Ted Williams Bc2k???

Are you denying what Frank accomplished in his first nine seasons with the White Sox?

100 RBI/100 Walks In More Than One Season
12- Babe Ruth
11- Lou Gehrig
9- Frank Thomas
9- Barry Bonds
8- Ted Williams
7- Jimmy Foxx
7- Harmon Killebrew

Frank Thomas is the only player in major-league history to bat .300 or better with at least 20 homeruns, 100 RBI, 100 walks, and 100 runs scored in seven consecutive seasons, a string that ended in 1998. In 1995, Thomas became the first player in history to accomplish that feat over five straight years, and in 1994 he joined Lou Gehrig (1929-32, 34-37) and Ted Williams (1946-49) as the only players to reach those totals four consecutive seasons (Note: Williams accomplished the feat from 1941-42 and 1946-49, missing 1943-45 due to World War II).

When you look at players with most homeruns and RBI in First 10 seasons you will find that Frank Thomas is:

14th in homeruns behind Eddie Mathews 370, Ralph Kiner 369, Ken Griffey Jr. 350, Hank Aaron 342, Ernie Banks 335, Frank Robinson 324, Ted Williams 323, Albert Belle 321, Mickey Mantle 320, Willie Mays 319, Mike Schmidt 314, Joe DiMaggio 303, Rocky Colavito 302, than Frank Thomas who is tied with Juan Gonzalez at 301.

11th in RBI behind Joe DiMaggio 1277, Al Simmons 1275, Ted Williams 1258, Lou Gehrig 1141, Hank Aaron 1121, Johnny Mize 1096, Earl Averill 1078, Jim Bottomley 1057, Joe Medwick 1047, Chuck Klein 1041. than Frank Thomas who is tied with Bob Johnson at 1040.

Now that my friend....... are some pretty good stats that back up my premise that Frank Thomas is one of the game's best hitters and that he is not finished yet. The Hall of Fame will be his.

By the way I never said anything negative about Ted Williams and I can agree with you in saying Teddy was probably the games best hitter ever...... (he wasn't the greatest fielder though and he will always be remembered for his bat not his glove, as will Frank Thomas.)

StepsInSC
07-24-2002, 10:29 PM
Thomas did have a serious tricep injury. So one could assume that he might have lost some of his power. Well since he just hit a 495 foot home run today, that means his power is back and is fully healed. He's out of excuses now.

That is THE MOST IDIOTIC STATEMENT I'VE EVER HEARD IN MY LIFE, albeit a short life, but nontheless....

Where the hell did you go to med school?

Unfortunately, the thing about baseball is, you don't get extra points for hitting long homeruns....and its not hitting LONG homeruns that makes someone a power hitter, its hitting homeruns consistantly.

For instance, Rafael Belliard played 16 years and had 2 career homeruns. But by your standards, if one of those homeruns had been 500 feet...then he would now be deemed a "power hitter"!
Ahaha that's funny.

Anyways the problem this year hasn't been Thomas' power (he's had respectable HR and RBI totals) it's been the fact that he hasn't been batting his weight. And no one ever said that the problem with Thomas is strictly physical...after coming back from that injury...and having not swung a bat in ages, of course he's going to have some mental rust. It was clear when Thomas was slumping it was his mental state that was giving him problems since he struck out watching pitches go down the middle more than Russell Branyon does swinging.


But that's a nice outlook on life you have there, in fact I'm going to adopt it. One day when I have a kid, and he takes his first step, I'll be sure to never let him crawl again. If he tries to crawl, I'll just say "No you little bitch you've already taken one step, so no more crawling because YOU'RE OUT OF EXCUSES."

bc2k
07-25-2002, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC


That is THE MOST IDIOTIC STATEMENT I'VE EVER HEARD IN MY LIFE, albeit a short life, but nontheless....

Where the hell did you go to med school?

Unfortunately, the thing about baseball is, you don't get extra points for hitting long homeruns....and its not hitting LONG homeruns that makes someone a power hitter, its hitting homeruns consistantly.

For instance, Rafael Belliard played 16 years and had 2 career homeruns. But by your standards, if one of those homeruns had been 500 feet...then he would now be deemed a "power hitter"!
Ahaha that's funny.

Anyways the problem this year hasn't been Thomas' power (he's had respectable HR and RBI totals) it's been the fact that he hasn't been batting his weight. And no one ever said that the problem with Thomas is strictly physical...after coming back from that injury...and having not swung a bat in ages, of course he's going to have some mental rust. It was clear when Thomas was slumping it was his mental state that was giving him problems since he struck out watching pitches go down the middle more than Russell Branyon does swinging.


But that's a nice outlook on life you have there, in fact I'm going to adopt it. One day when I have a kid, and he takes his first step, I'll be sure to never let him crawl again. If he tries to crawl, I'll just say "No you little bitch you've already taken one step, so no more crawling because YOU'RE OUT OF EXCUSES."

My point is that it's obvious that Thomas is fully healed from his triceps injury since he just hit the longest homerun of his career. In his many years of healthy play, he had never hit a home run as far as he did two days ago. So it is safe to assume that Thomas' tricep is fully healed.

Over the past season, I've heard comments from Thomas supporters saying that the tricep is a critical part of a player's swing and that you can't hit without a healed tricep. So if their information is correct, you cannot hit a baseball solid, let alone 495 feet without a tricep at full strength. Since Thomas just hit a ball that far, his tricep must be at 100%.

And if you want to talk about idiotic statements, you don't get any "points" for home runs. This isn't basketball.

That's funny in your analogy of Frank Thomas you compare him to a baby.

Dadawg_77
07-25-2002, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by bc2k


My point is that it's obvious that Thomas is fully healed from his triceps injury since he just hit the longest homerun of his career. In his many years of healthy play, he had never hit a home run as far as he did two days ago. So it is safe to assume that Thomas' tricep is fully healed.

Over the past season, I've heard comments from Thomas supporters saying that the tricep is a critical part of a player's swing and that you can't hit without a healed tricep. So if their information is correct, you cannot hit a baseball solid, let alone 495 feet without a tricep at full strength. Since Thomas just hit a ball that far, his tricep must be at 100%.

And if you want to talk about idiotic statements, you don't get any "points" for home runs. This isn't basketball.

That's funny in your analogy of Frank Thomas you compare him to a baby.

Hey BC2K, there is a lot more hitting then just the triceps. After a year off, you need to get your timing, the swing mechanics, your eye and your mental state ready to hit major league pitching. If you don't have those, you won't be successful 3 times out of ten at the plate.

Also, the Frank Thomas bashers push two points, his down years of 1998-99 and this year or his attitude. If you look at the numbers, this year and 99 he had issues deriving from health problems. 1998 appears to just be a statistical anomaly, where his avg was lower then norm. Also wasn't that the year, he was going through a bitter divorce? That could easily effective his mental state. I am not trying to make excuses, but trying to find out what might of caused the problems in the past in order to try and predict what Frank will do in the future. Which I believe he will put up good to great numbers over the next 5 to 6 years.

guillen4life13
07-25-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


My point is that it's obvious that Thomas is fully healed from his triceps injury since he just hit the longest homerun of his career. In his many years of healthy play, he had never hit a home run as far as he did two days ago. So it is safe to assume that Thomas' tricep is fully healed.

Over the past season, I've heard comments from Thomas supporters saying that the tricep is a critical part of a player's swing and that you can't hit without a healed tricep. So if their information is correct, you cannot hit a baseball solid, let alone 495 feet without a tricep at full strength. Since Thomas just hit a ball that far, his tricep must be at 100%.

And if you want to talk about idiotic statements, you don't get any "points" for home runs. This isn't basketball.

That's funny in your analogy of Frank Thomas you compare him to a baby.


I believe that Miguel Tejada (yes, Miguel Tejada, now the power hitting Miguel Tejada) has hit a 500 ft hr (against the sox). correct me if i'm wrong on this, but does that make him a better power hitter than the 1994 version, or even the 2000, or better yet... the 2002 version of Frank Thomas? if i'm interpreting what you have said correctly, then, why yes!... miguel tejada might as well be one of the best power hitters in the history of major league baseball.

you know... one thing that I can say is good about hawk harrelson is that he knows a lot about the game of baseball itself. while strength does play a part in home run hitting... it is mainly timing. that's why scrawny guys like Carl Yaztremski (sp) were able to hit 450+ home runs over the course of their careers. Even Magglio Ordonez's muscles aren't really that big, but he can consistently hit dingers.

oh and one other thing. the vibes i'm getting from you are that you are denying what frank thomas has done. and, oh, one other thing that you have to factor in....

who in this day and age can say that Frank Thomas wouldn't have hit .400 against the pitching of that era. now they throw faster, the ball breaks more, etc. though the ball is juiced now... and Frank's homerun totals probably wouldn't have come close to ted williams'... there is a good chance that he would have been able to hit .400 in that era with just liner basehits.

again... there's no way to be sure about this.