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View Full Version : A.J. in Two Hole, Paulie Cleanup


DumpJerry
03-03-2012, 05:08 PM
According to Robin. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-ventura-leaning-toward-pierzynski-at-no-2-konerko-at-cleanup-in-soxs-lineup-20120303,0,3781369.story)

gobears1987
03-03-2012, 05:38 PM
According to Robin. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-ventura-leaning-toward-pierzynski-at-no-2-konerko-at-cleanup-in-soxs-lineup-20120303,0,3781369.story)

Just what the two hole needs, a bunch of weak pop-ups on the first pitch.

Let's hope he learns the lesson during spring training and doesn't put him there in April.

Taliesinrk
03-03-2012, 05:43 PM
i wonder if it's because Robin has realized there's no one on the team that can execute fundamentals... except maybe a.j.

gobears1987
03-03-2012, 05:49 PM
i wonder if it's because Robin has realized there's no one on the team that can execute fundamentals... except maybe a.j.

AJ does know fundamentals and he will make a great coach down the road, but his tendency to swing at some bad first pitches and pop out is nauseating at times.

SephClone89
03-03-2012, 06:01 PM
i wonder if it's because Robin has realized there's no one on the team that can execute fundamentals... except maybe a.j.

AJ does know fundamentals...

Fundamentals like consistently losing his grip on the ball when transferring from glove to hand on SB attempts?

Zakath
03-03-2012, 06:08 PM
Hopefully Rios goes into the third spot, where he should have stayed. Most of his career AB's were out of that spot, and IMO part of his ice-cold start and fairly disastrous 2011 came out of being bounced all around the lineup (he had most of his AB's in 2011 out of the six spot, where he hit .202, while in the few AB's he had at 3, he hit .280).

DoItForDanPasqua
03-03-2012, 06:39 PM
I'm not sure I'm a fan of a guy who is slow and had a .323 OBP last year hitting in the number two slot. I like De Aza better in that spot.

Frater Perdurabo
03-03-2012, 07:50 PM
I like this idea. AJ makes a lot of contact on the ground to the right side. When DeAza is on first base, the hole between first and second will be larger, and AJ should be able to hit right through it. When that happens, DeAza often will be able to run from first to third.

mzh
03-03-2012, 08:17 PM
I like this idea. I think it depends a lot on whoever sits behind him in the 3 hole (presumably Viciedo). If Viciedo and Konerko do what they can do, AJ's gonna see a lot of fastballs for strikes, which is what he thrives on. We saw the same effect when he hit in front of Quentin in 08- I don't think it's a coincidence that he hit .220 in September 08 with Quentin out.

cards press box
03-03-2012, 08:36 PM
I like this idea. AJ makes a lot of contact on the ground to the right side. When DeAza is on first base, the hole between first and second will be larger, and AJ should be able to hit right through it. When that happens, DeAza often will be able to run from first to third.

I like the idea, too, and I also like the fact that RV said that he would put Morel in the #2 slot against certain lefties. Morel showed power late last season but he also can shoot the ball toward right field as well.

Frater Perdurabo
03-03-2012, 09:13 PM
Regular starting lineup:

DeAza
AJ/Morel
Rios
PK
Dunn
Viciedo
Alexei
Morel/Flowers
Bacon

Daver
03-03-2012, 10:43 PM
Putting the best baserunner on the team in the two hole seems like a good idea to me.

doublem23
03-03-2012, 11:01 PM
Regular starting lineup:

DeAza
AJ/Morel
Rios
PK
Dunn
Viciedo
Alexei
Morel/Flowers
Bacon

ugh

ZombieRob
03-03-2012, 11:58 PM
Didn't Ozzie try this with A.J before? It's not like it hasn't been tried before. With Ozzie it was kind of a failure after awhile.

Zakath
03-04-2012, 12:26 AM
I'm not sure I'm a fan of a guy who is slow and had a .323 OBP last year hitting in the number two slot. I like De Aza better in that spot.

Going to be a little tough for de Aza to hit 1 AND 2...

doublem23
03-04-2012, 12:41 AM
I'm not sure I'm a fan of a guy who is slow and had a .323 OBP last year hitting in the number two slot. I like De Aza better in that spot.

AJ's playing for a contract, though. I'd prefer De Aza and Ramirez 1-2, but whatever. Lineup's still got 4-5 holes in it. Unfortunately you can't bat 1/2 your lineup 9th.

ZombieRob
03-04-2012, 01:39 AM
AJ's playing for a contract, though. I'd prefer De Aza and Ramirez 1-2, but whatever. Lineup's still got 4-5 holes in it. Unfortunately you can't bat 1/2 your lineup 9th.
I know with the "ifs". But do you think Morel who is a contact hitter eventually get that 2 hole nod if he shows the same improvement at the end of last year?

TDog
03-04-2012, 01:49 AM
Hopefully Rios goes into the third spot, where he should have stayed. Most of his career AB's were out of that spot, and IMO part of his ice-cold start and fairly disastrous 2011 came out of being bounced all around the lineup (he had most of his AB's in 2011 out of the six spot, where he hit .202, while in the few AB's he had at 3, he hit .280).

I don't believe Rios didn't hit because he wasn't hitting third. Depending on your lineup, there might not be much of a difference between third and sixth, aside from an ego thing. Hitting sixth you can come up in many of the same situations as you do hitting third, but you may come up one less time in a game.

It isn't as much where you hit in the order as who you have hitting around you. Who is hitting behind you can have a big impact on your batting average and on-base percentage. Last year, Adam Dunn reached base more than 40 percent of the time in his starts in the seven spot because pitchers tended to pitch more carefully to him there, preferring to face the number eight hitter. Anywhere else in the order he was getting on base less than 30 percent of the time.

Hitting second in the order, typically you would expect to see better pitches, assuming you have a better hitter hitting third. If you have a base-stealing threat leading off and reaching base often enough, your second-place hitter will get more fastballs, one of the reasons I like Ramirez hitting second. With some players, the situational responsibilites of hitting second keep them from being overly anxious. Pierzynski may be a more disciplined hitter hitting second because he will come up more frequently with situational jobs to do.

But a batting order can be an organic thing. How well a player does hitting second often relates to how well the hitters hitting first and third do.

doublem23
03-04-2012, 01:57 AM
I know with the "ifs". But do you think Morel who is a contact hitter eventually get that 2 hole nod if he shows the same improvement at the end of last year?

If Brent Morel were to turn into a legitimate #2 hitter this season I would be ecstatic.

CLUBHOUSE KID
03-04-2012, 01:47 PM
I don't believe Rios didn't hit because he wasn't hitting third. Depending on your lineup, there might not be much of a difference between third and sixth, aside from an ego thing. Hitting sixth you can come up in many of the same situations as you do hitting third, but you may come up one less time in a game.

It isn't as much where you hit in the order as who you have hitting around you. Who is hitting behind you can have a big impact on your batting average and on-base percentage. Last year, Adam Dunn reached base more than 40 percent of the time in his starts in the seven spot because pitchers tended to pitch more carefully to him there, preferring to face the number eight hitter. Anywhere else in the order he was getting on base less than 30 percent of the time.

Hitting second in the order, typically you would expect to see better pitches, assuming you have a better hitter hitting third. If you have a base-stealing threat leading off and reaching base often enough, your second-place hitter will get more fastballs, one of the reasons I like Ramirez hitting second. With some players, the situational responsibilites of hitting second keep them from being overly anxious. Pierzynski may be a more disciplined hitter hitting second because he will come up more frequently with situational jobs to do.

But a batting order can be an organic thing. How well a player does hitting second often relates to how well the hitters hitting first and third do.

Favorite post in this thread.

RowanDye
03-04-2012, 03:30 PM
AJ's playing for a contract, though. I'd prefer De Aza and Ramirez 1-2, but whatever. Lineup's still got 4-5 holes in it. Unfortunately you can't bat 1/2 your lineup 9th.

AJ worries me. He's caught more games than most. It has to give pretty soon.

BainesHOF
03-04-2012, 09:42 PM
Can't wait for all the 4-6-3 double plays. On the bright side, at least our No. 2 hitter will have the power of a No. 2 hitter.

Foulke You
03-04-2012, 10:04 PM
Didn't Ozzie try this with A.J before? It's not like it hasn't been tried before. With Ozzie it was kind of a failure after awhile.
It was not a failure. The '08 AL Central Champion White Sox batted AJ second in the lineup for a large chunk of the season. AJ was sandwiched between Orlando Cabrera and Carlos Quentin and was quite successful there. Here are his numbers from that lineup spot in 2008:

.284 avg
101 hits (out of 356 ABs)
15 doubles
9 HRs
38 RBIs
.714 OPS
44 runs scored

russ99
03-04-2012, 11:00 PM
This seems to be an obvious move if you don't want to push Beckham into the role and let him gain confidence lower in the order and also if you think Ramirez isn't patient enough or can't hit behind runners well enough.

Gotta go with Rios at 3, which breaks up the dreaded Dunn-Rios combination of last year where rallied died on the vine.

russ99
03-04-2012, 11:04 PM
Can't wait for all the 4-6-3 double plays. On the bright side, at least our No. 2 hitter will have the power of a No. 2 hitter.

Because a #2 hitter really needs to have power.

God forbid if someone on the Sox steals a base or even more horrible... bunts.

I get it, Ozzie's gone and supposedly so should that style of baseball, but the league doesn't work that way anymore. The days of a team carrying 4-5 power hitters and solely slugging their way to score runs are gone.

Harry Chappas
03-05-2012, 09:31 AM
ugh

+1. I knew what the lineup would look like in my head but seeing it in reality was a bit jarring. I'm eager for the season but for the first time in recent memory, that part of me that is hopelessly optimistic has become cautiously pessimistic.

BainesHOF
03-05-2012, 07:13 PM
Because a #2 hitter really needs to have power.

God forbid if someone on the Sox steals a base or even more horrible... bunts.

I get it, Ozzie's gone and supposedly so should that style of baseball, but the league doesn't work that way anymore. The days of a team carrying 4-5 power hitters and solely slugging their way to score runs are gone.

I was simply taking a shot at AJ's lack of power.

thomas35forever
03-05-2012, 07:15 PM
I think A.J. at the second spot sounds like the most natural thing. He'll at least provide some veteran leadership there.

KMcMahon817
03-05-2012, 07:44 PM
+1. I knew what the lineup would look like in my head but seeing it in reality was a bit jarring. I'm eager for the season but for the first time in recent memory, that part of me that is hopelessly optimistic has become cautiously pessimistic.

Yeah, because it's oh so different from last year, right?

BainesHOF
03-06-2012, 02:16 AM
It was not a failure. The '08 AL Central Champion White Sox batted AJ second in the lineup for a large chunk of the season. AJ was sandwiched between Orlando Cabrera and Carlos Quentin and was quite successful there. Here are his numbers from that lineup spot in 2008:

.284 avg
101 hits (out of 356 ABs)
15 doubles
9 HRs
38 RBIs
.714 OPS
44 runs scored

That was four years ago. AJ's not nearly the same player now.

ZombieRob
03-06-2012, 02:53 AM
It was not a failure. The '08 AL Central Champion White Sox batted AJ second in the lineup for a large chunk of the season. AJ was sandwiched between Orlando Cabrera and Carlos Quentin and was quite successful there. Here are his numbers from that lineup spot in 2008:

.284 avg
101 hits (out of 356 ABs)
15 doubles
9 HRs
38 RBIs
.714 OPS
44 runs scored


I'm talking since than. Ozzie has put him in there and all he has done is kill innings with little patience and pop ups. I live or die with Morel or Beckham there.

DonnieDarko
03-06-2012, 07:15 AM
Live or die with Morel or Beckham in the 2 hole? Isn't Ramirez better there than the both of them?

doublem23
03-06-2012, 07:37 AM
Live or die with Morel or Beckham in the 2 hole? Isn't Ramirez better there than the both of them?

I would think so, I have no desire to see Morel or Beckham bat 2nd ever.

DonnieDarko
03-06-2012, 09:20 AM
Yeah, looking at all three of the players' stats, Ramirez is far and away the best in the 2-hole. There's simply NO reason not to bat him there. I don't need someone who can bunt in the 2 hole (hate bunting anyway). I need someone who can make contact with fast balls and get them out of the infield.

hi im skot
03-06-2012, 09:28 AM
I don't need someone who can bunt in the 2 hole (hate bunting anyway).

Then Alexei is your man.

ghostface36
03-06-2012, 09:36 AM
lol@aj in the 2 spot what a joke
and then someone posting up stats where he had a .714 ops? its disgusting mayne

kufram
03-06-2012, 09:48 AM
I'm sorry but you DO want someone who can bunt batting second. How did the Pods/Iguchi duo do in the first inning? Pods walked or singled, Iguchi let him steal or bunted him there, Pk got the rbi. That's as fundamental as it gets.

AJ isn't the best guy to bat second in a lineup but he's probably the best we have right now and I'm glad the manager is smart enough to think about it.

Jerko
03-06-2012, 09:50 AM
Let's face it, until we know if the 3 black holes in the lineup are going to rebound, it's going to be hard to fill out a decent lineup card. I would like to save Ramirez for the 3 or 5 hole, stick Dunn down at 8 until we see if he starts hitting, and maybe even supplant Beckham with Lillibridge. My card would start like this:

DeAza
Lillibridge
Ramirez
Paulie
Viciedo
Aj
Rios
Dunn
Morel

You have Fuko and Gordo off the bench for late inning D.

I know that's not a great lineup, but Rios and Dunn don't even sniff the 3 and 5 hole until they prove they are "back". If Dunn doesn't improve and stays 5th, that pretty much negates Paulie IMO. If these guys rebound, then you can throw yesterday's lineup out there.

hi im skot
03-06-2012, 10:01 AM
Let's face it, until we know if the 3 black holes in the lineup are going to rebound, it's going to be hard to fill out a decent lineup card. I would like to save Ramirez for the 3 or 5 hole, stick Dunn down at 8 until we see if he starts hitting, and maybe even supplant Beckham with Lillibridge. My card would start like this:

DeAza
Lillibridge
Ramirez
Paulie
Viciedo
Aj
Rios
Dunn
Morel

You have Fuko and Gordo off the bench for late inning D.

I know that's not a great lineup, but Rios and Dunn don't even sniff the 3 and 5 hole until they prove they are "back". If Dunn doesn't improve and stays 5th, that pretty much negates Paulie IMO. If these guys rebound, then you can throw yesterday's lineup out there.

Lillibridge gets exposed when he plays every day. I think his track record shows he's most valuable coming off the bench or getting a spot start.

DonnieDarko
03-06-2012, 10:02 AM
Lillibridge gets exposed when he plays every day. I think his track record shows he's most valuable coming off the bench or getting a spot start.

This.

soxfanatlanta
03-06-2012, 10:28 AM
I miss Iguchi

:(:

russ99
03-06-2012, 10:45 AM
I'm sorry but you DO want someone who can bunt batting second. How did the Pods/Iguchi duo do in the first inning? Pods walked or singled, Iguchi let him steal or bunted him there, Pk got the rbi. That's as fundamental as it gets.

AJ isn't the best guy to bat second in a lineup but he's probably the best we have right now and I'm glad the manager is smart enough to think about it.

IMO, batting second has much less to do with bunting, and more to do with taking pitches, working the count and hitting behind the runner. Iguchi was pretty solid at both. A.J. is passable, but better than our other options. If we had a true leadoff man, then DeAza would be a good choice too.

Alexei hasn't really show the plate patience to do either and is much better suited to a run producing role at 3rd or 6th where he can hack at fastballs. Also, Beckham needs to get out of his funk before he can be tried there again.

Harry Chappas
03-06-2012, 11:23 AM
Yeah, because it's oh so different from last year, right?

Um, yeah it is. At this time last year, we had high hopes for Adam Dunn, the arrow pointed up for Rios, we still had TCQ, and Beckham was expected to return to his rookie form if not improve upon it.

Unless you accurately predicted the epic suckage of Rios/Dunn and a terrible year for Beckham, then you viewed the lineup differently as well.

shingo10
03-06-2012, 11:50 AM
Spring Training is the worst. It's just too long. I can't wait to put all of the analysis and dissection of the lineup and this team behind us and start finding out some useful information. Like Wins versus Losses in games that count.

kufram
03-06-2012, 11:52 AM
IMO, batting second has much less to do with bunting, and more to do with taking pitches, working the count and hitting behind the runner. Iguchi was pretty solid at both. A.J. is passable, but better than our other options. If we had a true leadoff man, then DeAza would be a good choice too.

Alexei hasn't really show the plate patience to do either and is much better suited to a run producing role at 3rd or 6th where he can hack at fastballs. Also, Beckham needs to get out of his funk before he can be tried there again.

Yeah, I should have italicized the word can. That doesn't mean he bunts all of the time. I meant that a number 2 needs to be an unselfish hitter with the good bat control to bunt or hit behind the runner or into the hole in the defense on a steal and the brains to know when to do what.

I wish AJ wasn't the most suitable but a manager that recognizes that he might be just that is a good thing. Maybe Ventura has the smarts to make a difference. That remains to be seen but, so far, the right words are coming out of his mouth in my opinion.

KMcMahon817
03-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Um, yeah it is. At this time last year, we had high hopes for Adam Dunn, the arrow pointed up for Rios, we still had TCQ, and Beckham was expected to return to his rookie form if not improve upon it.

Unless you accurately predicted the epic suckage of Rios/Dunn and a terrible year for Beckham, then you viewed the lineup differently as well.

You missed the point.

The line-up is virtually the exact same as last years, minus Quentin add Viciedo, whom are very comparable players. I also consider De Aza is be a decent upgrade over Pierre offensively and worlds better defensively.

Obviously I did not predict Dunn would suck, or Gordo would continue to regress. Just like I am not going to guess that they'll suck equally as bad in 2012. Just let the guys play the game. The lineup is what it is, and yes, it is virtually the exact same as last years.

ZombieRob
03-06-2012, 02:01 PM
Live or die with Morel or Beckham in the 2 hole? Isn't Ramirez better there than the both of them?
Morel is a contact hitter who doesn't strike out much. Ramirez whiffs, a lot and it a mediocre to terrible bunter. Beckham has the skills, just not the mentality so far to do it.

Foulke You
03-06-2012, 02:04 PM
lol@aj in the 2 spot what a joke
and then someone posting up stats where he had a .714 ops? its disgusting mayne
Someone said we tried AJ in the 2 hole and it was a failure. I posted full stats (not just the OPS) that showed he did pretty darn good in that spot the last time he was there. I don't exactly see what is "disgusting" about that. Sorry it didn't go along with your "AJ is going to be soooo terrible in the 2 hole" theory :rolleyes:


I'm talking since than. Ozzie has put him in there and all he has done is kill innings with little patience and pop ups. I live or die with Morel or Beckham there.
AJ played in only 12 games in 2010 as the #2 hitter and zero games in 2011 as the #2 hitter. Hardly enough of a sample size to say he was terrible. I would also not want Beckham and Morel in the 2 hole. They both strike out way too much and you need someone in that spot who can put the bat on the ball. AJ isn't a perfect hitter but he almost never strikes out and knows how to put the bat on the ball and make contact.


That was four years ago. AJ's not nearly the same player now.
He hit .287 last year. Far from being washed up as a hitter. Also, he had 133 hits. For the 2011 White Sox, this was Ty Cobb-esque.:tongue:

Harry Chappas
03-07-2012, 10:44 AM
You missed the point.

The line-up is virtually the exact same as last years, minus Quentin add Viciedo, whom are very comparable players. I also consider De Aza is be a decent upgrade over Pierre offensively and worlds better defensively.

Obviously I did not predict Dunn would suck, or Gordo would continue to regress. Just like I am not going to guess that they'll suck equally as bad in 2012. Just let the guys play the game. The lineup is what it is, and yes, it is virtually the exact same as last years.

Oh, I agree with you. I'm still looking forward to White Sox baseball, but having the "same lineup" that struggled last year doesn't create a lot of optimism, especially when the Tigers added (another) MVP candidate. We also lost MB and Santos and I'm not sure I'm ready to declare Viciedo = Quentin.

I'll be focusing more on how the younger players develop. Sure, it'd be nice for Rios and Dunn to redeem themselves, but I'm not sure that improvement from them will be enough to put us on top of the division.