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View Full Version : Jonah Keri's 2012 White Sox Preview on Grantland


doublem23
02-29-2012, 03:30 PM
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/18606/2012-mlb-season-preview-chicago-white-sox

Some pretty sobering ****, although potentially good news if you own a Brent Morel jersey.

DonnieDarko
02-29-2012, 03:58 PM
Sobering.

But we all know how baseball predictions go. I'll withhold my judgment until at least a few months into the season.

kittle42
02-29-2012, 04:53 PM
I don't need a prognosticator to tell me they're gonna suck. Don't we all know/sorta accept that already?

DSpivack
02-29-2012, 06:32 PM
I'm reading up on the other previews now. It's a good series of summaries for each and every team; I think there are about 8 of them thus far.

Obviously if you're a diehard fan of the team as most around here are of the White Sox there's nothing surprising or unknown, but for the other teams I don't know as much.

chisox12
03-01-2012, 11:03 AM
I don't need a prognosticator to tell me they're gonna suck. Don't we all know/sorta accept that already?


Yep. I think that's what we are all expecting.

Tragg
03-01-2012, 01:43 PM
Some pretty sobering ****, although potentially good news if you own a Brent Morel jersey.
He improved at the plate a lot at the end of last year. Whether hit sticks, we'll see.
And he did well defensively.

KMcMahon817
03-01-2012, 02:58 PM
I don't need a prognosticator to tell me they're gonna suck. Don't we all know/sorta accept that already?

Games aren't played on paper. If they were, we'd be the defending AL Central champions. Things clearly don't look promising, but you just never know.

I sure as **** know I am excited to watch some White Sox baseball.

Jurr
03-01-2012, 04:37 PM
Games aren't played on paper. If they were, we'd be the defending AL Central champions. Things clearly don't look promising, but you just never know.

I sure as **** know I am excited to watch some White Sox baseball.

Well put. One of my favorite years was the "the Kids can play" season.

Not a ton of expectations, but just some entertaining baseball.
That would be quite the welcome change for this franchise.

Foulke You
03-01-2012, 04:52 PM
Well put. One of my favorite years was the "the Kids can play" season.

Not a ton of expectations, but just some entertaining baseball.
That would be quite the welcome change for this franchise.
2000 was indeed a really fun season and proof that in baseball, you just never know. In the offseason leading up to that year, we were picked to finish a distant 2nd or 3rd behind the Indians. On paper, our rotation of Sirotka, Baldwin, Eldred, Parque, and Kip Wells scared nobody. However, the team got solid pitching, surprise bullpen efforts from guys like Foulke, Simas, and Howry and a "shock and awe" type of offense to boot. 95 wins walked away with the Central that year.

DSpivack
03-01-2012, 05:11 PM
2000 was indeed a really fun season and proof that in baseball, you just never know. In the offseason leading up to that year, we were picked to finish a distant 2nd or 3rd behind the Indians. On paper, our rotation of Sirotka, Baldwin, Eldred, Parque, and Kip Wells scared nobody. However, the team got solid pitching, surprise bullpen efforts from guys like Foulke, Simas, and Howry and a "shock and awe" type of offense to boot. 95 wins walked away with the Central that year.

That Opening Night remains as one of my favorite memories at a Sox game.

LITTLE NELL
03-01-2012, 05:53 PM
The Sox will exceed expectations this year for these reasons:
A change at manager, the guys are going to play hard for Robin.
Dunn and Rios will return to their normal years.
The pitching staff will make up the slack with the loss of Buerhle with Peavy finally healthy and Sale becoming a stud.
Morel will improve but not to a Bautista level.
Beckham is the only guy that concerns me, he has become a head case.

downstairs
03-01-2012, 05:59 PM
the sox will exceed expectations this year for these reasons:
A change at manager, the guys are going to play hard for robin.
Dunn and rios will return to their normal years.
The pitching staff will make up the slack with the loss of buerhle with peavy finally healthy and sale becoming a stud.
Morel will improve but not to a bautista level.
Beckham is the only guy that concerns me, he has become a head case.

81-81.

DirtySox
03-01-2012, 06:23 PM
81-81.

77 - 85

doublem23
03-01-2012, 06:35 PM
That Opening Night remains as one of my favorite memories at a Sox game.

Sox 1st home game after that 7-game sweep of the Indians and Yankees with the impromptu standing ovation during the intros is arguably my favorite in-person Sox game ever.

raven1
03-01-2012, 06:53 PM
These articles sounds like recycled garbage from Phil Rogers. Essentially the same roster that was picked to win the division last year is now trashed as terrible? Barring a repeat of last year where half the team has off-the-charts bad seasons, there is no reason they shouldn't finish above .500, with an upside of 90+ wins that may be enough to take the division from an overhyped Tigers team that position by position isn't significantly better than the Sox.

mzh
03-01-2012, 07:00 PM
81-81.

77 - 85
162-0.

Suck it, haters :D:

DSpivack
03-01-2012, 07:11 PM
These articles sounds like recycled garbage from Phil Rogers. Essentially the same roster that was picked to win the division last year is now trashed as terrible? Barring a repeat of last year where half the team has off-the-charts bad seasons, there is no reason they shouldn't finish above .500, with an upside of 90+ wins that may be enough to take the division from an overhyped Tigers team that position by position isn't significantly better than the Sox.

I think it's a perfectly fair assessment of the team. It's in a series of similar previews for each team. I don't know anyone else who thinks the Sox can win 90+ games this season.

162-0.

Suck it, haters :D:

I say 163 and -1. :tongue:

Johnny Mostil
03-01-2012, 08:12 PM
162-0.

Suck it, haters :D:

I say 163 and -1. :tongue:

You have to include the post-season: 173-0.:cool:

Seriously, did I read that link right? Dunn improves to .220/.355/.443, Rios improves to .269/.318/.427, and Beckham improves to .256/.326/.402? I'm not expecting 90, but if those and the other projections on that page were to happen (I've no idea if they will), then I might expect more than the 79 wins of last year.

DSpivack
03-01-2012, 08:24 PM
You have to include the post-season: 173-0.:cool:

Seriously, did I read that link right? Dunn improves to .220/.355/.443, Rios improves to .269/.318/.427, and Beckham improves to .256/.326/.402? I'm not expecting 90, but if those and the other projections on that page were to happen (I've no idea if they will), then I might expect more than the 79 wins of last year.

On an absolute level, that's probably correct. But, relative to the other projections (I've enjoyed the whole series thus far, I think they're up to 9 or 10 teams, with today's preview on Boston), not necessarily. Those are Bill James' numbers, and they tend to be very optimistic.

slavko
03-01-2012, 09:35 PM
Viciedo couldn't hit or hit for power after the callup. He was trying to be selective, tho. He might be one of those guys who can't be selective.

PeteWard
03-02-2012, 12:36 AM
I don't need a prognosticator to tell me they're gonna suck. Don't we all know/sorta accept that already?

Yup. And it may take 3 years to get out of the cellar or next-to-the-cellar status. :(:

doublem23
03-02-2012, 02:12 AM
Yup. And it may take 3 years to get out of the cellar or next-to-the-cellar status. :(:

This is a hard division to figure out, other than Detroit being the clear favorite right now, but both in the short and long term, it looks like the Twins are in much worse shape than us.

wassagstdu
03-02-2012, 10:37 AM
... both in the short and long term, it looks like the Twins are in much worse shape than us.

I am more concerned. The Twins have an organization with a solid track record of developing players. The Sox have nothing but devastation as far as the eye can see. Nothing good will happen until KW is replaced.

Dunn hits .230 with 30 HR and the Sox finish last in 2012.

cheezheadsoxfan
03-02-2012, 10:42 AM
IIRC a lot of people (sportswriters, etc., not people on WSI) picked us
to take the division last year. I remember thinking that's the kiss of death. We may well suck, we may surprise, but I'd like to play some games first.

kittle42
03-02-2012, 10:43 AM
Games aren't played on paper.

Sudoku is.

doublem23
03-02-2012, 11:11 AM
I am more concerned. The Twins have an organization with a solid track record of developing players. The Sox have nothing but devastation as far as the eye can see. Nothing good will happen until KW is replaced.

:rolling:

I love how even the outsider who wrote the piece in the OP can acknowledge the the majority of KW's moves that have backfired recently (Dunn, Rios, Beckham) were the right move at the time that just for various reasons haven't worked out. Only our own fans with 20/20 goggles and a bone to pick will argue against signing a guy who averaged 40+ HR over 7 seasons, picking a guy off waivers during a down year following 3 good to really good seasons, and drafting arguably the most MLB ready prospect on the board.

kittle42
03-02-2012, 12:03 PM
I love how even the outsider who wrote the piece in the OP can acknowledge the the majority of KW's moves that have backfired recently (Dunn, Rios, Beckham) were the right move at the time that just for various reasons haven't worked out. Only our own fans with 20/20 goggles and a bone to pick will argue against signing a guy who averaged 40+ HR over 7 seasons, picking a guy off waivers during a down year following 3 good to really good seasons, and drafting arguably the most MLB ready prospect on the board.

I agree on Beckham and Dunn, but the Rios move was questionable even at the time.

doublem23
03-02-2012, 01:21 PM
I agree on Beckham and Dunn, but the Rios move was questionable even at the time.

I'll give you that Rios was the riskiest of the recent KW moves to go bust, but his last three seasons in Toronto before having a down year in 2009 and getting picked up off waivers he was a .296/.347/.489 hitter averaging about 20 HR and 90 RBI per year. Obviously he was probably never going to completely justify that huge contract, but the fact that he could play CF (a hole the Sox just have not been able to fill) made it, at worst, a toss-up, IMO. I think his performance with the Sox in his first 2 1/2 years here has been even worse than the most realistically pessimistic guesses anyone could have had for him.

asindc
03-02-2012, 01:59 PM
I am more concerned. The Twins have an organization with a solid track record of developing players. The Sox have nothing but devastation as far as the eye can see. Nothing good will happen until KW is replaced.

Dunn hits .230 with 30 HR and the Sox finish last in 2012.

You should really look at who the Twinkees brought up last year and who they have waiting in the wings. You should also consider that their two best players have major health issues. You should also consider that they just fired their GM. I'd rather keep what we have, as mediocre as it is, then trade our situation for theirs. Unless you think Jamey Carroll is going to lead them back to prominence.

russ99
03-02-2012, 02:02 PM
I'll give you that Rios was the riskiest of the recent KW moves to go bust, but his last three seasons in Toronto before having a down year in 2009 and getting picked up off waivers he was a .296/.347/.489 hitter averaging about 20 HR and 90 RBI per year. Obviously he was probably never going to completely justify that huge contract, but the fact that he could play CF (a hole the Sox just have not been able to fill) made it, at worst, a toss-up, IMO. I think his performance with the Sox in his first 2 1/2 years here has been even worse than the most realistically pessimistic guesses anyone could have had for him.

I still think the reach in grabbing Rios was eventually due to the Sox getting outbid (or refusing to raise bid, depending on how you see it) for Torii Hunter.

This is definitely coulda-shoulda material, but signing Hunter and then not making the Swisher trade and the eventual reach on acquiring Rios could have made a big difference. Both in 2008 and now.

shingo10
03-02-2012, 02:03 PM
I am slightly worried about our pitching. All of it. I hope with all the thinking of "if Dunn and Rios will just hit we'll be fine..." we don't lose sight of the fact that Danks, Floyd, and Humber all had huge struggles last year as did Thornton. Crain also seemed to be overworked at the end of the year. Anyway I just hope that the pitching is a very solid and that we don't lose a bunch of games 10-9 and 9-8.

Its almost easier for me to watch a team thats terrible offensively than a team that can't pitch.

spawn
03-02-2012, 03:23 PM
That's it. Cancel the season instead of playing the games because, well, EVERYONE is saying the Sox will suck this season. Guess I won't be watching nor going to any games. See you next y...wait, they're gonna suck next year too, right? See you in 2014! Wait, they're gonna suck then too! Right? Oh well. I guess I will just give up on the Sox and become a Cubs fan!


Oh wait...

kittle42
03-02-2012, 03:33 PM
That's it. Cancel the season instead of playing the games because, well, EVERYONE is saying the Sox will suck this season. Guess I won't be watching nor going to any games. See you next y...wait, they're gonna suck next year too, right? See you in 2014! Wait, they're gonna suck then too! Right? Oh well. I guess I will just give up on the Sox and become a Cubs fan!


Oh wait...

I've been waiting for the annual "Games aren't played on paper" v. "Come on, look at this team, they have no real chance" threads, filled with hyperbole and extreme position-labeling. Baseball is here!

Sargeant79
03-02-2012, 03:59 PM
I still think the reach in grabbing Rios was eventually due to the Sox getting outbid (or refusing to raise bid, depending on how you see it) for Torii Hunter.

This is definitely coulda-shoulda material, but signing Hunter and then not making the Swisher trade and the eventual reach on acquiring Rios could have made a big difference. Both in 2008 and now.

I agree that failing to sign Hunter was the catalyst to the Swisher and Rios moves, but let's not go overboard with the revisionist history. The Sox made a 5 year / $75 million offer to Hunter. The Angels swooped in at the last minute and IIRC, the Sox were never even given the opportunity to counter. They did everything reasonable that they could have to sign him.

And if they did, there would be a huge chunk of the fan base crying about what an albatross of a contract he has right now.

spawn
03-02-2012, 04:18 PM
I've been waiting for the annual "Games aren't played on paper" v. "Come on, look at this team, they have no real chance" threads, filled with hyperbole and extreme position-labeling. Baseball is here!

And i didn't have to wait long for the "this team is going to suck" posts from those with overinflated opinions of themselves, so I guess that makes us even. :shrug:

TDog
03-02-2012, 04:18 PM
I still think the reach in grabbing Rios was eventually due to the Sox getting outbid (or refusing to raise bid, depending on how you see it) for Torii Hunter.

This is definitely coulda-shoulda material, but signing Hunter and then not making the Swisher trade and the eventual reach on acquiring Rios could have made a big difference. Both in 2008 and now.

You are right, but I wouldn't characterize the White Sox as refusing to bid on Torii Hunter. Hunter signed a ridiculously high contract at the time. The White Sox also lost out on Aaron Rowand, who signed a ridiculously high contract with the Giants and never came close to earning it. The White Sox then traded for Nick Swisher to play center and signed Alexei Ramirez as a possible centerfielder who could also play the middle infield.

If the White Sox had signed Hunter to a contract, ridiculously high and higher than the Angels did, they wouldn't have traded for Swisher. They probably would have traded Gio Gonzalez to fill another hole, eventually at least. I doubt that as long as it took Gonzalez to develop, the White Sox wouldn't have used him to acquire other talent. Maybe they wouldn't have signed Ramirez, but Ramirez, although he was in center on opening day in 2008 having beaten out Swisher, was highly regarded on the infield as well.

Not signing Hunter, not signing Rowand after not signing Hunter, set into motion a chain of events that led to today. Things would be very different. Just how different would be speculation. I agree that it wouldn't have left the desperation for a centerfielder that led to claiming Rios, not just becuase of need but because of the team's budget. I believe it's likely Dunn wouldn't have been signed to a ridiclously high contract, especially with Mark Reynolds on the Diamondbacks trade block the same offseason for a much lower contract.

But if Kenny Williams had not traded Aaron Miles for Juan Uribe before the 2004 season, it could have led to a series of events that gave the White Sox a World Series title in 2008 instead of 2005. You don't know what would have happened if moves hadn't taken place, if players had the flu and sat out games where they were injured etc. You just do what you believe is right at the time.

doublem23
03-02-2012, 04:22 PM
You are right, but I wouldn't characterize the White Sox as refusing to bid on Torii Hunter. Hunter signed a ridiculously high contract at the time. The White Sox also lost out on Aaron Rowand, who signed a ridiculously high contract with the Giants and never came close to earning it. The White Sox then traded for Nick Swisher to play center and signed Alexei Ramirez as a possible centerfielder who could also play the middle infield.

Swisher was aquired to be the Sox's left fielder, he was only moved to CF because TCQ's incredible break-out season in 2008. The original plan was still Swisher/Owens/Dye, which would have been the opening day OF had Owens not hurt himself towards the end of the Spring. Things probably would have been much different, too, had the Sox not panicked and sold low on Swisher after 2008 and instead chose to sell high on Jermaine Dye.

TDog
03-02-2012, 06:42 PM
Swisher was aquired to be the Sox's left fielder, he was only moved to CF because TCQ's incredible break-out season in 2008. The original plan was still Swisher/Owens/Dye, which would have been the opening day OF had Owens not hurt himself towards the end of the Spring. Things probably would have been much different, too, had the Sox not panicked and sold low on Swisher after 2008 and instead chose to sell high on Jermaine Dye.

At the news conference after Swisher was acquired, Kenny Williams said he had been acquired to play center, but was able to play several positions. With the A's in 2007, Swisher played more center than anyone else on the team after Kotsay's back surgery. The Ramirez signing was more ambiguous, but he was touted as a centerfielder, and, in fact, was the starting centerfielder at the beginning of the season, probably for a week or two. That could have been hastened by Owens' injury, but some scouts believed center was Ramirez' best position. Ramirez was replaced in the outfield because he got off to a horrendous offensive start (he was still hitting under .200 in May, when he hit his first American home run to win a game in San Francisco) and Quentin got more playing time in left with Swisher moving to center, where he got most of his starts until about a week into June, about the time the White Sox were going on a tear.

Judging from the Kenny Williams statements at the news conference after Swisher was acquired, I doubt he would have been acquired if the White Sox had signed Hunter or Rowand, especially with Williams being so high on Quentin. As for Swisher's value, I believe it only would have continued to fall as long as he stayed with the White Sox. He needed an attitude adjustment, and I didn't see that coming in Chicago.

I believe history would have played out better for the White Sox if they had never acquired Swisher, even without considering my belief that acquiring Swisher led to the White Sox acquiring Rios. But I suppose they could have done worse.

kufram
03-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Games aren't played on paper. If they were, we'd be the defending AL Central champions. Things clearly don't look promising, but you just never know.

I sure as **** know I am excited to watch some White Sox baseball.


I would like to see baseball writers' performance result stats on their pre-season predictions historically.

TomBradley72
03-03-2012, 10:52 AM
I think the odds are against it overall BUT since it's early March and the time for optimism- there are a few reasons we could surprise people this year:


Rios, Dunn and Peavy returning to "career average" production would be the equivalent of 3 significant acquistions in the offseason.
Beckham getting to average 2nd baseman production + his defense would give the WSox a plus at 2nd base.
Morel's defense + a full season of this production August and September would be an upgrade
I pick up from alot of the player's comments that the "Ozzie Circus" from 2011 really wore on them- and personally, I'm very impressed with the way Ventura is coming across in his first few weeks as manager.
With Sizemore's injury in Cleveland, and the unpredicatability of the Royals (most preseason magazines have us slotted for 4th)- a 2nd place finish is not out of the question.

bigdommer
03-03-2012, 11:38 AM
I love that the consensus is for the Sox to suck and finish last. Sports media consensus opinions, like the stock market and weather, is usually wrong. The Phillies and Red Sox were consensus pennant winners last year at this time, and I am pretty sure that didn't happen. While I don't expect this team to contend, I didn't think they would contend in 2005, and that was consensus opinion. I really think personnel wise, only the loss of MB is a negative. But career norms and a fresh skipper could offset this. I think 80 wins is reasonable. I think Vegas has 74 and I would take that.

rcescato
03-04-2012, 01:57 PM
I don't need a prognosticator to tell me they're gonna suck. Don't we all know/sorta accept that already?


Exactly. Hopefully we wont lose 100 this year. If we get the same production as last year from Dunn, and Rios then 100 losses is possible.

TDog
03-04-2012, 02:24 PM
I would like to see baseball writers' performance result stats on their pre-season predictions historically.

It's all over the place because it's all a guess. Even the number-crunching analysts are just guessing because they are assuming numbers from the past will predict numbers in the future and translate into team wins and losses.

And it isn't just the preseason. Last August, during a discussion on NPR of baseball's haves-and-have-nots financial health, an expert said no one could compete with the Phillies in the NL and the Yankees and Red Sox in the AL. Of course, the Red Sox didn't even make the ALDS. The team that beat out the Red Sox was a team no one expected, in part because it had lost a star player to the Red Sox.

ChiSox81
03-04-2012, 06:54 PM
I expect this team to compete and have a chance to win the division. The Sox are the most complete team in the central.

SephClone89
03-04-2012, 09:16 PM
I expect this team to compete and have a chance to win the division. The Sox are the most complete team in the central.

I don't think this is correct.

ChiSox81
03-04-2012, 09:39 PM
I don't think this is correct.

Really why is that?

The Twins and Tigers are a mess
The Royals have potential but are too young
The Indians also have potential but i just don't like the back end of their rotation.

DirtySox
03-04-2012, 09:44 PM
Really why is that?

The Twins and Tigers are a mess
The Royals have potential but are too young
The Indians also have potential but i just don't like the back end of their rotation.

The Tigers are a mess? Maybe the Hanshin version.

ChiSox81
03-04-2012, 09:59 PM
The Tigers are a mess? Maybe the Hanshin version.

This isn't softball.

The 1B man should be a DH
The 2B and SS should be 3B
The 3B should be a 1B
The LF should be a DH

How is that not a mess? If that team doesn't score 8 runs a game they don't have a chance.

cards press box
03-04-2012, 10:01 PM
The Tigers are a mess? Maybe the Hanshin version.

Well, the Tigers' infield defense is a mess. Detroit is still a pretty good team (with the reigning Cy Young award winner and two perennial MVP candidates on offense), although perhaps not as solid as some prognosticators think.

TDog
03-04-2012, 10:35 PM
Well, the Tigers' infield defense is a mess. Detroit is still a pretty good team (with the reigning Cy Young award winner and two perennial MVP candidates on offense), although perhaps not as solid as some prognosticators think.

Every team has question marks. For all the wisdom claimed by the authors of power ratings and preseason analysis, it's the question marks ignored in March that have the biggest impact on the season. Often the biggest question marks don't make themselves apparent until the season is well under way.

I don't believe the Tigers are guaranteed to be so good that the rest of the teams in the AL Central should write off the season.

DirtySox
03-04-2012, 10:49 PM
This isn't softball.

The 1B man should be a DH
The 2B and SS should be 3B
The 3B should be a 1B
The LF should be a DH

How is that not a mess? If that team doesn't score 8 runs a game they don't have a chance.

Bad defense or not, they will be just fine.

Harry Chappas
03-05-2012, 11:01 AM
That's it. Cancel the season instead of playing the games because, well, EVERYONE is saying the Sox will suck this season. Guess I won't be watching nor going to any games. See you next y...wait, they're gonna suck next year too, right? See you in 2014! Wait, they're gonna suck then too! Right? Oh well. I guess I will just give up on the Sox and become a Cubs fan!


Oh wait...

Isn't this to be expected with a new season on the horizon? We're talking about a sports message board so measured, thoughtful, analysis is going to be in short supply. Hyperbole from both camps is pretty much the standard and this extends to virtually every team and every sport. It'd be a pretty dull place if everyone just took a 'wait and see' approach and didn't offer up their opinions - however misguided you believe them to be.

The "experts" like Grantland aren't offering up their opinion from the perspective of a fan. They are simply looking at projected statistics and extrapolating a team's likelihood of success or failure absent the biases we as fans bring to the equation. As of right now, the majority of "experts" don't feel the Sox are a very good team. This isn't exactly news to anyone here as I'd say most of us, at least in part, agree. But I don't think this means that anyone here is going to be boycotting games. Even if the Sox struggle as expected, there are other things worth following other than our place in the standings. For me, I'll be interested in seeing if Beckham can get out of his funk, if Viciedo can be adequate in the field, if Sale holds up as a starter, etc. I will also be following the draft a little more closely this year to see if the team is truly committed to "rebuilding" or if they will continue to pay lip service to notion of building a strong farm system.

cards press box
03-05-2012, 01:43 PM
Bad defense or not, they will be just fine.

I think the Tigers will be a good team, too. But I must say that I have a hard time seeing them as a championship caliber team with that weak a defense.

As much as people marvel over the great Yankee power in the early '60's (and make no mistake, that team had tremendous power), their defense was outstanding, particularly in the infield. The great Orioles teams of the late '60's and early '70's had great infield defenses, too. With a great defense behind them, pitchers don't have to work as hard, stay healthy and do better.

Between the 2012 Sox and the 2012 Tigers, I like the Sox infield defense a whole lot better. And De Aza and Fukodome (and a return of Rios to RF) will help the Sox outfield defense, too.

RCWHITESOX
03-06-2012, 06:42 PM
The Sox will exceed expectations this year for these reasons:
A change at manager, the guys are going to play hard for Robin.
Dunn and Rios will return to their normal years.
The pitching staff will make up the slack with the loss of Buerhle with Peavy finally healthy and Sale becoming a stud.
Morel will improve but not to a Bautista level.
Beckham is the only guy that concerns me, he has become a head case.

I couldn't agree with you more.The Sox have less pressure this year and I really believe
They will be much better this year and that includes Beckham

TDog
03-06-2012, 07:28 PM
I think the Tigers will be a good team, too. But I must say that I have a hard time seeing them as a championship caliber team with that weak a defense.

As much as people marvel over the great Yankee power in the early '60's (and make no mistake, that team had tremendous power), their defense was outstanding, particularly in the infield. The great Orioles teams of the late '60's and early '70's had great infield defenses, too. With a great defense behind them, pitchers don't have to work as hard, stay healthy and do better.

Between the 2012 Sox and the 2012 Tigers, I like the Sox infield defense a whole lot better. And De Aza and Fukodome (and a return of Rios to RF) will help the Sox outfield defense, too.

You don't have great pitching without great defense. Great defense forces opponents mistakes and/or forces opponents to play a more conservative game. Good teams will take advantage of teams with defensive shortcomings.

The 2000 White Sox season ended with a play designed to take advantage of the White Sox defensive shortcomings. Defense was as big a factor as pitching and a bigger factor than the offense in winning the World Series five years later.

If the White Sox had the Tigers' roster, the defense would be generating a consensus of pessimism here. And I seriously can't believe the Tigers will go with the defense as it has been described preseason. Cabrera hasn't been a third baseman since he showed he had to be moved to first in April 2008.

doublem23
03-06-2012, 09:53 PM
If the White Sox had the Tigers' roster, the defense would be generating a consensus of pessimism here. And I seriously can't believe the Tigers will go with the defense as it has been described preseason. Cabrera hasn't been a third baseman since he showed he had to be moved to first in April 2008.

Ha, right, if the Sox had three legitimate MVP candidates on their roster, we'd all be singing the blues. Keep on trying, though, I'm sure one day we'll all realize how much smarter you are than the rest of us.

Fenway
03-06-2012, 09:58 PM
Jonah is a buddy

He said -

Jonah Keri

There are some intriguing players on the roster. Writing a piece about RP-to-SP conversions, Sale's mentioned.

When I told him about thread he said

Jonah Keri
Thanks. Haven't clicked, but I'm assuming "this guy knows nothing, Sox rule" will be the prevailing theme.

DSpivack
03-06-2012, 10:00 PM
Jonah is a buddy

He said -

Jonah Keri

There are some intriguing players on the roster. Writing a piece about RP-to-SP conversions, Sale's mentioned.

When I told him about thread he said

Jonah Keri
Thanks. Haven't clicked, but I'm assuming "this guy knows nothing, Sox rule" will be the prevailing theme.

I've enjoyed the series thus far, and look forward to the rest of it.

doublem23
03-06-2012, 10:04 PM
Jonah is a buddy

He said -

Jonah Keri

There are some intriguing players on the roster. Writing a piece about RP-to-SP conversions, Sale's mentioned.

When I told him about thread he said

Jonah Keri
Thanks. Haven't clicked, but I'm assuming "this guy knows nothing, Sox rule" will be the prevailing theme.

Ha, what a ****ing prick

Fenway
03-06-2012, 10:09 PM
I've enjoyed the series thus far, and look forward to the rest of it.

He lives in Denver now but as much as he loves the game he has not had a team since the Expos died.

His piece on the Red Sox is dead on and it is obvious that Valentine is running a much harder spring training than Francona ever did.

TDog
03-06-2012, 10:17 PM
Ha, right, if the Sox had three legitimate MVP candidates on their roster, we'd all be singing the blues. Keep on trying, though, I'm sure one day we'll all realize how much smarter you are than the rest of us.

A year ago, many believed Konerko and Dunn were legitimate MVP candidates and a former Cy Young pitcher coming back from successful surgery, and people were singing the blues.

Are you suggesting that there wouldn't be any concern here if the White Sox were committed to Miguel Cabrera at third base? I am guessing the concern would be sufficient to generate threads.

Honestly, I don't understand how my observation that the current Tigers roster would raise defensive concerns at WSI implies that I am trying to convince people that I'm smarter than everyone else.

No arrogance was intended in the opinion I expressed. Re-reading it, I see less evidence of arrogance in mine than I read personal attack in yours.

doublem23
03-06-2012, 10:22 PM
If you're putting 2011 Konerko/Dunn/Peavy on the same level as 2012 Cabrera/Fielder/Verlander I... I don't even know where to begin with that one. I cannot believe I'm actually reading that.

doublem23
03-06-2012, 10:32 PM
For reference - Career MVP Shares

White Sox - Entering 2011
Paul Konerko - 0.69
Adam Dunn - 0.03
Jake Peavy - 0.22
------------------
TOTAL - 0.94

Tigers - Entering 2012
Miguel Cabrera - 2.41
Prince Fielder - 1.61
Justin Verlander - 0.75 - 1 MVP
---------------------
TOTAL - 4.77 + 1 MVP win

Good god, it's an even bigger disparity than I expected.

DSpivack
03-06-2012, 10:34 PM
For reference - Career MVP Shares

White Sox - Entering 2011
Paul Konerko - 0.69
Adam Dunn - 0.03
Jake Peavy - 0.22
------------------
TOTAL - 0.94

Tigers - Entering 2012
Miguel Cabrera - 2.41
Prince Fielder - 1.61
Justin Verlander - 0.75 - 1 MVP
---------------------
TOTAL - 4.77 + 1 MVP win

Good god, it's an even bigger disparity than I expected.

That doesn't change the fact that if the Sox had Cabrera and Fielder, people here would be complaining about Cabrera's defense at 3B, and to a lesser extent Fielder's at 1B--and deservedly so.

doublem23
03-06-2012, 10:42 PM
That doesn't change the fact that if the Sox had Cabrera and Fielder, people here would be complaining about Cabrera's defense at 3B, and to a lesser extent Fielder's at 1B--and deservedly so.

Yeah and those people would be ridiculed for being crazy

DSpivack
03-06-2012, 10:46 PM
Yeah and those people would be ridiculed for being crazy

Why? Should Tigers fans not be concerned with their likely poor defense this season?

doublem23
03-06-2012, 11:27 PM
Why? Should Tigers fans not be concerned with their likely poor defense this season?

If people want to be unreasonably pessimistic, that's their own thing. I will go on record right now and say if the Tigers wanted to swap their 40-man roster with the Sox, I would support such a trade. A lot.

DSpivack
03-06-2012, 11:32 PM
If people want to be unreasonably pessimistic, that's their own thing. I will go on record right now and say if the Tigers wanted to swap their 40-man roster with the Sox, I would support such a trade. A lot.

Saying that the Tigers have serious concerns about their defense is not the same thing as saying that they have an inferior roster. I think both are true: the Tigers have a superior roster to the White Sox, and that they are likely to have a poor defense in 2012.

Maybe it won't matter until the playoffs, but defense (though from the pitcher position, not necessarily from 3B or 1B) certainly hurt them a few years ago in the playoffs.

doublem23
03-07-2012, 12:16 AM
Saying that the Tigers have serious concerns about their defense is not the same thing as saying that they have an inferior roster. I think both are true: the Tigers have a superior roster to the White Sox, and that they are likely to have a poor defense in 2012.

Maybe it won't matter until the playoffs, but defense (though from the pitcher position, not necessarily from 3B or 1B) certainly hurt them a few years ago in the playoffs.

Isn't that making my point for me though? Sure, the Tigers infield defense is probably going to be their Achille's Heel this year, but if you're that down in the dumps over trying to find PT for Miguel Cabrera and Prince Fielder, I feel little pity for you. We're over here trying to figure out ways to hide 2/3 of your starting lineup.

kittle42
03-07-2012, 11:58 AM
A year ago, many believed Konerko and Dunn were legitimate MVP candidates and a former Cy Young pitcher coming back from successful surgery, and people were singing the blues.

Oh, my god.

No, they didn't believe that. They absolutely didn't.

You are comparing Fielder, Cabrera, Verlander 2012 to Konerko, Dunn, Peavy 2011.

Geez, almost making me not want to give doublem crap for the personal attack.

CLUBHOUSE KID
03-07-2012, 02:25 PM
At this point:

Tigers>White Sox

TDog
03-07-2012, 02:31 PM
Oh, my god.

No, they didn't believe that. They absolutely didn't.

You are comparing Fielder, Cabrera, Verlander 2012 to Konerko, Dunn, Peavy 2011.

Geez, almost making me not want to give doublem crap for the personal attack.

I'm not conparing Konerko and Dunn to Cabrera and Fielder. I have never believed Dunn was a very good hitter. But at WSI there was excitement over the offense he would provide the White Sox, although it's true Baseball Prospectus wasn't buying it and predicted the Twins would win the division (it had the Tigers at 82-80, 2 games ahead of the White Sox). Konerko had finished fifth in the MVP vote in 2010, and posters argued with me that Dunn was better offensively than Konerko. And Rios was coming off a solid season at the plate.

I'm not comparing the players. I'm comparing the situations. Everything looks better when you just won the division last year, of course, although I read here sometimes that the White Sox just got lucky in 2005 and they backed into the division title in 2008. Part of the cautious nature of White Sox fans (what some call reality and others call negativity are really degrees of the same cautious community consensus), is being critical of what the White Sox have.

If the White Sox had Cabrera at third base, I have no question that there would be concern over the third-base defense, regardless of the excitement over his offense. And unless Cabrera has secretly improved tremendously at third base, I cannot believe that he will remain the regular third baseman this season. As cards press box posted before me, I have a hard time seeing the Tigers as a championship caliber team with that weak a defense.

I'm sorry if that isn't as well considered as the "you're an idiot" counter argument.

doublem23
03-07-2012, 02:42 PM
I'm not comparing the players. I'm comparing the situations.

Right and there's almost no comparison between them except you picked the Sox's best 3 players who are (and were then, too) clearly inferior to Detroit's 3 best players.

kittle42
03-07-2012, 03:01 PM
Right and there's almost no comparison between them except you picked the Sox's best 3 players who are (and were then, too) clearly inferior to Detroit's 3 best players.

Right. It was bad logic. No one was touting Dunn as an MVP candidate. Hell, no one was touting Konerko as one despite his previous season.

doublem23
03-07-2012, 03:05 PM
Right. It was bad logic. No one was touting Dunn as an MVP candidate. Hell, no one was touting Konerko as one despite his previous season.

Yeah, most of us, I think, believed that Konerko's incredible 2010 season was a fluke and that he was the player he'd been for most of his career - below average offensively for his position.

OK, I'm sure that of the 15,000 registered users on this site, maybe there was 1 who legitimately believed that Konerko, Dunn, and Peavy all had realistic chances to win the AL MVP in 2011... Don't think it's fair to paint with a broad brush and say that "everyone at WSI thought that."

shes
03-07-2012, 03:21 PM
I pretty much agree with Keri on all points. This is going to be a fun club to watch. I'm very interested to see if Morel's power explosion in September was just a fluke month or a harbinger of something more legitimate.

SephClone89
03-07-2012, 03:34 PM
I pretty much agree with Keri on all points. This is going to be a fun club to watch. I'm very interested to see if Morel's power explosion in September was just a fluke month or a harbinger of something more legitimate.

:?: Might want to read the piece again.

Irishsox1
03-07-2012, 04:21 PM
The pitching is going to have to hold it together until the offense can get going. With Dunn/Rios/Beckham you could get something good or all three hitting under .200

But when it's all said and done, as long as Alex Rios is starting, I don't think the Sox have a legit chance. As I've posted before, it's not my money but I would rather cut and eat the Rios contract than have him anywhere near the team.

kittle42
03-07-2012, 04:32 PM
Go into the season expecting to battle the Royals, Indians, and Twins for somewhere between second and last place and you won't be disappointed!

central44
03-07-2012, 05:08 PM
As has been said before in this thread, there's always a team everyone crowns in March--last year it was the Red Sox and the Phillies. This year it's Detroit.

It doesn't mean anything. Remember how bad the Sox were supposed to be in 2008?

The bottom line is that nobody knows anything. That's why baseball is so great--it's not like the NBA where the powerhouse teams generally dominate. Teams overachieve and underachieve all the time.

Detroit IS flawed. Maybe that means they'll underachieve, or maybe it won't mean anything. Again, nobody knows yet. And we have no way of knowing what the Sox will get from Peavy, Dunn, Rios, Danks, Floyd, Morel, Beckham, Sale, etc. A bunch of these guys could turn the corner, or be terrible.

But the pessism is a little over the top, IMHO.

DSpivack
03-07-2012, 05:19 PM
As has been said before in this thread, there's always a team everyone crowns in March--last year it was the Red Sox and the Phillies. This year it's Detroit.

It doesn't mean anything. Remember how bad the Sox were supposed to be in 2008?

The bottom line is that nobody knows anything. That's why baseball is so great--it's not like the NBA where the powerhouse teams generally dominate. Teams overachieve and underachieve all the time.

Detroit IS flawed. Maybe that means they'll underachieve, or maybe it won't mean anything. Again, nobody knows yet. And we have no way of knowing what the Sox will get from Peavy, Dunn, Rios, Danks, Floyd, Morel, Beckham, Sale, etc. A bunch of these guys could turn the corner, or be terrible.

But the pessism is a little over the top, IMHO.

Who's crowning Detroit? All I see in terms of predictions is that they'll win the division.

doublem23
03-07-2012, 11:37 PM
Who's crowning Detroit? All I see in terms of predictions is that they'll win the division.

Right, the Tigers are obviously the cream of the crop in the AL Central on paper, but at best they're viewed as the 5th best team in the AL, maybe 4th if you don't believe the Rays will be able to score enough to win consistently and 6th if you're a Sawx homah and you're drinking the Bawbby V Kool-Aid wicked hawd.

Brian26
03-07-2012, 11:41 PM
As has been said before in this thread, there's always a team everyone crowns in March--last year it was the Red Sox and the Phillies. This year it's Detroit.

It doesn't mean anything. Remember how bad the Sox were supposed to be in 2008?

The bottom line is that nobody knows anything. That's why baseball is so great--it's not like the NBA where the powerhouse teams generally dominate. Teams overachieve and underachieve all the time.

Detroit IS flawed. Maybe that means they'll underachieve, or maybe it won't mean anything. Again, nobody knows yet. And we have no way of knowing what the Sox will get from Peavy, Dunn, Rios, Danks, Floyd, Morel, Beckham, Sale, etc. A bunch of these guys could turn the corner, or be terrible.

But the pessism is a little over the top, IMHO.

This is a good post.

Nobody thought the Sox would finish in 3rd place behind the Twins and Tigers, of all teams, after the Sox won the World Seriesin '05 and then acquired Thome and Vazquez. If anything, the Indians looked like they could give the Sox trouble in '06.

Play the games and see what happens. It's nice to see some young guys in the fold.

DSpivack
03-07-2012, 11:45 PM
Right, the Tigers are obviously the cream of the crop in the AL Central on paper, but at best they're viewed as the 5th best team in the AL, maybe 4th if you don't believe the Rays will be able to score enough to win consistently and 6th if you're a Sawx homah and you're drinking the Bawbby V Kool-Aid wicked hawd.

Agreed. I see Texas, Los Angeles of Anaheim, New York and Tampa as clearly better than Detroit, and while the Tigers might be better than Boston I don't think they will be much better.

shes
03-08-2012, 10:59 AM
:?: Might want to read the piece again.

I still think Keri is right on most things and I still think it's going to be a fun club to watch.

My expectations going into the season are battling for third place so "fun" is relative to that and the fact that I also feel strongly about Sale and Morel potentially breaking out.

spawn
08-10-2012, 01:45 PM
Just wanted to resurrect this thread. There were some pretty thoughtful and inciteful posts, but then you had the following:


I don't need a prognosticator to tell me they're gonna suck. Don't we all know/sorta accept that already?

Yep. I think that's what we are all expecting.

Yup. And it may take 3 years to get out of the cellar or next-to-the-cellar status. :(:

I am more concerned. The Twins have an organization with a solid track record of developing players. The Sox have nothing but devastation as far as the eye can see. Nothing good will happen until KW is replaced.

Dunn hits .230 with 30 HR and the Sox finish last in 2012.

Exactly. Hopefully we wont lose 100 this year. If we get the same production as last year from Dunn, and Rios then 100 losses is possible.

Go into the season expecting to battle the Royals, Indians, and Twins for somewhere between second and last place and you won't be disappointed!

Now, the White Sox haven't won the division, or a playoff game. But the fact that they are still playing meaningful games in August just proves the point that baseball games aren't played on paper.

spawn
08-10-2012, 01:50 PM
I figured since I quoted the Debbie Downers, I should commend those that had the exact opposite opinions:

Games aren't played on paper. If they were, we'd be the defending AL Central champions. Things clearly don't look promising, but you just never know.

I sure as **** know I am excited to watch some White Sox baseball.

Well put. One of my favorite years was the "the Kids can play" season.

Not a ton of expectations, but just some entertaining baseball.
That would be quite the welcome change for this franchise.

The Sox will exceed expectations this year for these reasons:
A change at manager, the guys are going to play hard for Robin.
Dunn and Rios will return to their normal years.
The pitching staff will make up the slack with the loss of Buerhle with Peavy finally healthy and Sale becoming a stud.
Morel will improve but not to a Bautista level.
Beckham is the only guy that concerns me, he has become a head case.

IIRC a lot of people (sportswriters, etc., not people on WSI) picked us
to take the division last year. I remember thinking that's the kiss of death. We may well suck, we may surprise, but I'd like to play some games first.

I think the odds are against it overall BUT since it's early March and the time for optimism- there are a few reasons we could surprise people this year:


Rios, Dunn and Peavy returning to "career average" production would be the equivalent of 3 significant acquistions in the offseason.
Beckham getting to average 2nd baseman production + his defense would give the WSox a plus at 2nd base.
Morel's defense + a full season of this production August and September would be an upgrade
I pick up from alot of the player's comments that the "Ozzie Circus" from 2011 really wore on them- and personally, I'm very impressed with the way Ventura is coming across in his first few weeks as manager.
With Sizemore's injury in Cleveland, and the unpredicatability of the Royals (most preseason magazines have us slotted for 4th)- a 2nd place finish is not out of the question.

I expect this team to compete and have a chance to win the division. The Sox are the most complete team in the central.

doublem23
08-10-2012, 01:56 PM
Gotta dig up that thread where SI picked us to lose 95 games or so.

spawn
08-10-2012, 01:56 PM
Gotta dig up that thread where SI picked us to lose 95 games or so.

That was already done a couple of weeks ago, I believe.

LITTLE NELL
08-10-2012, 02:10 PM
The Sox will exceed expectations this year for these reasons:
A change at manager, the guys are going to play hard for Robin.
Dunn and Rios will return to their normal years.
The pitching staff will make up the slack with the loss of Buerhle with Peavy finally healthy and Sale becoming a stud.
Morel will improve but not to a Bautista level.
Beckham is the only guy that concerns me, he has become a head case.

Looking back over my original post the only thing it looks like I was wrong on was Morel. I have to give Beckham credit for not taking his hitting woes out to the field with him, his attitude has remained pretty good and I bet Robin might have something to do with that.

cards press box
08-10-2012, 02:22 PM
I have been accused of usually seeing the glass as at least half-full. Having said that, I did post this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2862277#post2862277) about the White Sox re-tooling and this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2884719#post2884719) about the bad Tiger infield defense.

downstairs
08-10-2012, 02:27 PM
Not sure if it was in this thread, but I did have them at .500. Oops.

Domeshot17
08-10-2012, 02:32 PM
As someone who was super down on the team coming into the year, this year has been very enjoyable. Just with Ozzie gone I am enjoying White Sox baseball again. The fun thing has been not everything has gone close to right for the Sox (Danks down for the year, Floyd and Humber sucking, Beckham still can't hit, Tank has been average at best). But they are finding ways to win. I think this is hugely in part to Robin. He has them playing a slowed down game. 1 pitch at a time, 1 play at a time. No distractions, just baseball.

We have also been really lucky to get solid contributions from a very bad farm. Reed has been solid as closer, Nate Jones has been a lot of fun, Quintana keeps battling, they are playing hard for each other.

The biggest different at the end of the day to me is fundamental baseball. Ozzie preached it forever, Robin actually instilled it. They are playing defense and not beating themselves. Having quality at bats.

You also have to tip your cap to Kenny. The Sox are not in this position without Youk, Meyers or Liriano.

kittle42
08-10-2012, 03:30 PM
I said go into the season not expecting anything other than fighting for third place and I wouldn't be disappointed. Guess what? I'm not disappointed. I'm thrilled.

Lower expectations have really ruled. When the Sox go on a slide, as they did several weeks back, I just remind myself they really aren't all that awesome (or at least were not supposed to be), and it comforts me. I don't get angry about as many games as I have in every other year I have followed this team. It's been pretty awesome, actually.

I will admit I was wrong and they don't suck. That's obvious. But I surely won't feel bad about stating that I thought they would when even the beloved team captain said that the team really wasn't expecting to be playing for the playoffs this season before the season ever started.

Put that in the tobacco smoking device and proceed to smoke it.

chisoxfanatic
08-10-2012, 03:41 PM
I said go into the season not expecting anything other than fighting for third place and I wouldn't be disappointed. Guess what? I'm not disappointed. I'm thrilled.
I said they'd be fighting for last place, so you set the bar even higher than I did. Like you, I can't really be that disappointed right now considering my preseason expectations.

spawn
08-10-2012, 03:59 PM
I will admit I was wrong and they don't suck. That's obvious.
Yep. Pretty obvious you got that one completely wrong. Good to see you admitting it! :thumbsup:

kittle42
08-10-2012, 04:05 PM
Yep. Pretty obvious you got that one completely wrong. Good to see you admitting it! :thumbsup:

That's what I said.

Were you expecting a bunch of people to just backpedal?

spawn
08-10-2012, 04:18 PM
That's what I said.

Were you expecting a bunch of people to just backpedal?

Not at all. Just enjoying reading the posts predicting doom and gloom before the season even started. :cool:

kittle42
08-10-2012, 04:21 PM
Not at all. Just enjoying reading the posts predicting doom and gloom before the season even started. :cool:

If there is something I can nitpick from the first place position of this team right now, it's that I fear the Sox will continue to think that patchwork teams with lots of "if only all the guys that stink perform well, we'll be fine" attitude is the way to build contenders. It worked this year, but that's awful risky.

It's much like the annoyance I feel at their continual "building to compete in the division" model.

doublem23
08-10-2012, 04:37 PM
If there is something I can nitpick from the first place position of this team right now, it's that I fear the Sox will continue to think that patchwork teams with lots of "if only all the guys that stink perform well, we'll be fine" attitude is the way to build contenders. It worked this year, but that's awful risky.

It's much like the annoyance I feel at their continual "building to compete in the division" model.

It think it's pretty outrageous to call this a patchwork team considering that only one player (Rios) seems to be having a banner season. Otherwise guys are performing about as well as realistically expected in most cases. I guess De Aza may also qualify, but there's also a chance he really is this good of a player. We saw this last year when he came up and he was highly thought of enough in Miami to be the Marlins starting CF a few years ago before injuries derailed his tenure there. The guy was only buried in AAA the last 2 seasons because Ozzie couldn't bear the thought of not having Juan Pierre to drop fly balls in LF and get caught stealing 2B all damn year.

This is just a good (not great), well rounded team.

Domeshot17
08-10-2012, 04:43 PM
It think it's pretty outrageous to call this a patchwork team considering that only one player (Rios) seems to be having a banner season. Otherwise guys are performing about as well as realistically expected in most cases. I guess De Aza may also qualify, but there's also a chance he really is this good of a player. We saw this last year when he came up and he was highly thought of enough in Miami to be the Marlins starting CF a few years ago before injuries derailed his tenure there. The guy was only buried in AAA the last 2 seasons because Ozzie couldn't bear the thought of not having Juan Pierre to drop fly balls in LF and get caught stealing 2B all damn year.

This is just a good (not great), well rounded team.

I would agree patchwork may not be the right word. However, In most years having that many rookie pitchers on the team is not good. Quintana has been really good, but with the stuff he has, there has been a school of thought that the 2nd time teams see him they will hit him harder. But plenty of guys have made decent careers out of location and weak contact.

This was not unlike Kenny and Jerry's approach of building a team that can win 85-88 games and hoping they over achieve. I think that is probably a better way to say it, especially with starting the year without Meyers and with Morel over Youk.

doublem23
08-10-2012, 04:46 PM
This was not unlike Kenny and Jerry's approach of building a team that can win 85-88 games and hoping they over achieve. I think that is probably a better way to say it, especially with starting the year without Meyers and with Morel over Youk.

Maybe, but I don't think that was the intended plan for this team, the Sox were absolutely reeling after last year's disaster.

The Sox have certainly caught some breaks; all teams do and certainly all good teams do, but it's hard for me to call a team that's not really getting way out of line career production from anyone, who will have only gotten 53 IP from their Opening Day starter, and has used 23 total pitchers (and counting) in a season "very lucky." Frustratingly inconsistent? Sure? But still good enough to deserve their standing.

Domeshot17
08-10-2012, 05:01 PM
Maybe, but I don't think that was the intended plan for this team, the Sox were absolutely reeling after last year's disaster.

The Sox have certainly caught some breaks; all teams do and certainly all good teams do, but it's hard for me to call a team that's not really getting way out of line career production from anyone, who will have only gotten 53 IP from their Opening Day starter, and has used 23 total pitchers (and counting) in a season "very lucky." Frustratingly inconsistent? Sure? But still good enough to deserve their standing.

For sure, and I think back to my original post, they are earning each win. It is not like they had 1 insane streak and just live off that, have they have been fairly steady. Obviously some stinkers of short stretches, but good defense, solid pitching, timely hitting, its been a very good recipe.

If the Sox make the playoffs, would any manager possibly deserve MOTY over Ventura?

kobo
08-10-2012, 05:57 PM
I said go into the season not expecting anything other than fighting for third place and I wouldn't be disappointed. Guess what? I'm not disappointed. I'm thrilled.

Lower expectations have really ruled. When the Sox go on a slide, as they did several weeks back, I just remind myself they really aren't all that awesome (or at least were not supposed to be), and it comforts me. I don't get angry about as many games as I have in every other year I have followed this team. It's been pretty awesome, actually.

I will admit I was wrong and they don't suck. That's obvious. But I surely won't feel bad about stating that I thought they would when even the beloved team captain said that the team really wasn't expecting to be playing for the playoffs this season before the season ever started.

Put that in the tobacco smoking device and proceed to smoke it.
This is the same approach I have taken as well. One of my friends still lives and dies with every pitch and I just can't do that.

kobo
08-10-2012, 06:03 PM
For sure, and I think back to my original post, they are earning each win. It is not like they had 1 insane streak and just live off that, have they have been fairly steady. Obviously some stinkers of short stretches, but good defense, solid pitching, timely hitting, its been a very good recipe.

If the Sox make the playoffs, would any manager possibly deserve MOTY over Ventura?
The only one I could see getting the nod over Ventura, if the Sox do indeed make the playoffs, is Melvin. But that would be based on the A's making the playoffs.

palehozenychicty
08-11-2012, 02:03 AM
I think if the O's do it, then Showalter gets in the running. To take that team into the playoffs would be stunning.

StillMissOzzie
08-11-2012, 02:56 AM
That was an entertaining walk down memory lane. Between the collective genius of SI and this guy, Sox should fold up the tent and surrender right now.

Truth in Labeling: While it appears that I didn't post in this thread, I will honestly admit that my crystal ball had the Sox finishing at 76-86. No way they'd lose 100 games, they had a lot of things that had to go right to contend, but I was a doubter that they' would finish above 0.500

Couldn't be happier to be wrong. Practically every "well, if..." has gone the Sox' way w/r/t Rios, Peavy, & Sale. Beckham is still a bit of a soft spot offensively, but still providing great defense. And nobody could have seen Youk stepping in for Morel (and Hudson) at 3B, providing both great defense and a boatload of clutch hitting and RBIs in his first few weeks here.

SMO
:gulp:

wassagstdu
08-11-2012, 07:47 AM
Well, I called Dunn's return to norm, but I missed a few "surprises"

The impact of De Aza
Rios' 360 turnaround at the plate and in the field
With Viciedo's adequate/+ defense, a very solid outfield
Alexei's defensive improvement
Sale's dominance
Peavy's solid comeback
AJ's rampage
KW's incomplete incompetence

I am still troubled by the Home Run Derby offensive approach, which will be too easy to shut down in the postseason, but overall glad to have been so wrong -- to this point. But I still see the Sox organization as something of a Potemkin village.

Zisk77
08-11-2012, 10:48 AM
Well, I called Dunn's return to norm, but I missed a few "surprises"

The impact of De Aza
Rios' 360 turnaround at the plate and in the field
With Viciedo's adequate/+ defense, a very solid outfield
Alexei's defensive improvement
Sale's dominance
Peavy's solid comeback
AJ's rampage
KW's incomplete incompetence

I am still troubled by the Home Run Derby offensive approach, which will be too easy to shut down in the postseason, but overall glad to have been so wrong -- to this point. But I still see the Sox organization as something of a Potemkin village.

:o: you mean a 180 ... a 360 is a complete circle putting Rios in the same place he was last year.

Huh??

wassagstdu
08-11-2012, 12:08 PM
:o: you mean a 180 ... a 360 is a complete circle putting Rios in the same place he was last year.

Huh??

:redface: Er, what I meant was that he has done a 180 but is putting out 200%!

On KW: I mean I am surprised that his incompetence is not as complete as I thought.

asindc
08-11-2012, 02:09 PM
:redface: Er, what I meant was that he has done a 180 but is putting out 200%!

On KW: I mean I am surprised that his incompetence is not as complete as I thought.

How complete do you think it is?

BleacherBandit
08-11-2012, 02:10 PM
:redface: Er, what I meant was that he has done a 180 but is putting out 200%!

On KW: I mean I am surprised that his incompetence is not as complete as I thought.

Gah, I'd say he's been fairly competent this year at the trade deadline.