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View Full Version : Sox Actually Work On Holding Baserunners


Lip Man 1
02-28-2012, 11:07 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0229-white-sox-chicago--20120229,0,1582989.story

I thought A.J.'s comment about the previous coaching staff's involvement in this area was interesting.

Lip

SoxSpeed22
02-28-2012, 11:23 PM
We might be in for a pleasant surprise this season. This new coaching staff believes in doing stuff so that we don't beat ourselves. Few teams did a better job of beating themselves than the Sox did last year.
The Sox might not have the talent to make a deep October run, but some rebound seasons from Dunn and Peavy, improvement from Beckham and the young guys and they could be over .500.

Noneck
02-29-2012, 12:19 AM
Since the pitching coach hasnt changed, I dont understand why this wasnt done previously.

DonnieDarko
02-29-2012, 08:32 AM
Since the pitching coach hasnt changed, I dont understand why this wasnt done previously.

+1. Now that Buerhle is gone , who else ccan actually hold on runners? Danks? Ugh.

chisoxfanatic
02-29-2012, 08:34 AM
We might be in for a pleasant surprise this season. This new coaching staff believes in doing stuff so that we don't beat ourselves. Few teams did a better job of beating themselves than the Sox did last year.
I've heard that from previous years. But, I'm willing to give the new coaches a chance before putting judgement on them.

I still am extremely skeptical about the upcoming season. But, we'll see how things like this (and other fundamentals) change in the first month.

Over By There
02-29-2012, 08:45 AM
Since the pitching coach hasnt changed, I dont understand why this wasnt done previously.

But his boss has changed. And as AJ says in the article, there are three players that all have to contribute - the pitcher, catcher and wohever is covering 2nd.

The proof will be in the pudding because we hear every offseason that the Sox are getting re-focused on fundamentals, but I'm encouraged by this. Watching opponents run wild on the basepaths has been one of the more frustrating parts of watching White Sox baseball over the last few years.

bluedemon45
02-29-2012, 09:11 AM
Unless AJ's arm has improved I really don't see much of a chance at stopping runners from advancing. And whenever he would make a respectable throw to second the person catching ball would recieve at the bag instead of in front of the base and usually the runner would slide in safely.

I'm glad there working on this because this is something that has plagued the Sox since Karko was behind the plate. If there is any chance for this team to be respectable this year there going to have to play fundamentally sound baseball.

BringBackBlkJack
02-29-2012, 11:32 AM
Unless AJ's arm has improved I really don't see much of a chance at stopping runners from advancing.

That's like saying the only thing that matters when stealing bases is speed. There are a lot of other factors at play - timing, reading the pitcher, leadoff distance, etc. Sure, speed greatly helps for stealing bases but it's far from the sole qualifying factor in whether one is a successful base-stealer.

shingo10
02-29-2012, 12:12 PM
Somebody better tell Alexi to stop standing in front of the base and then trying to reach back and tag the runner. He's done that ever since he's been here and I don't know why nobody ever worked with him to stop it.

Nellie_Fox
02-29-2012, 12:14 PM
Somebody better tell Alexi to stop standing in front of the base and then trying to reach back and tag the runner. He's done that ever since he's been here and I don't know why nobody ever worked with him to stop it.
Alexei.

JB98
02-29-2012, 01:30 PM
It's about damn time. I'll never forget the game last year where noted speed demon Michael Cuddyer swiped three bases on the Sox, and Ozzie shrugged and said, "There's nothing we can do."

That was the first time I realized our former manager had quit on us.

ChiSoxGirl
02-29-2012, 09:50 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0229-white-sox-chicago--20120229,0,1582989.story

I thought A.J.'s comment about the previous coaching staff's involvement in this area was interesting.

Lip

So did I. There have been some rather poignant comments from two of the longest-standing members of the Sox over the last couple days and, quite frankly, I find it both bold and refreshing. I can't wait to see what this team looks like once spring games get underway next week.

Frater Perdurabo
02-29-2012, 10:30 PM
It's about damn time. I'll never forget the game last year where noted speed demon Michael Cuddyer swiped three bases on the Sox, and Ozzie shrugged and said, "There's nothing we can do."

That was the first time I realized our former manager had quit on us.

Ozzie talked a good game about emphasizing fundamentals, but it became clear toward the end that what Ozzie emphasized the most was stroking his own ego.

BainesHOF
03-01-2012, 01:01 AM
Somebody better tell Alexi to stop standing in front of the base and then trying to reach back and tag the runner. He's done that ever since he's been here and I don't know why nobody ever worked with him to stop it.

It was mindboggling, especially considering the manager was a shortstop and one of his coaches was a second baseman.

I thought Cooper deserved to be fired for his staff's complete failure to hold runners on for years while making no real effort to improve. I think Parent deserves credit for the work being done in this area this spring. He was vocal at Soxfest about wanting to change this aspect of the team, and did not hesitate mentioning Pierzynski by name.

Parent also said when one of our hitters gets hit that our pitchers will retaliate. That would be another refreshing change.

October26
03-01-2012, 11:10 AM
I like what I read in the article. I agree with what Danks said at the end about not giving AJ a great shot every time. The last few years, it seems like every time somebody got a hit off Sox pitching, they advanced to second base almost immediately. It's hard to defend against what feels like back-to-back-to-back doubles all the time. And I remember how great Buehrle was at picking runners off base and now he's gone. :(:

I'm glad to hear that the Sox are working on holding base runners.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
03-01-2012, 12:28 PM
It's about damn time. I'll never forget the game last year where noted speed demon Michael Cuddyer swiped three bases on the Sox, and Ozzie shrugged and said, "There's nothing we can do."

That was the first time I realized our former manager had quit on us.

Thanks for reminding me. God, I wanted to punch my TV when I saw that.

SephClone89
03-01-2012, 01:03 PM
It's about damn time. I'll never forget the game last year where noted speed demon Michael Cuddyer swiped three bases on the Sox, and Ozzie shrugged and said, "There's nothing we can do."

That was the first time I realized our former manager had quit on us.



Thanks for reminding me. God, I wanted to punch my TV when I saw that.

My friend was at that game in Minnesota and talks about it all the time.

russ99
03-01-2012, 01:24 PM
It's about damn time. I'll never forget the game last year where noted speed demon Michael Cuddyer swiped three bases on the Sox, and Ozzie shrugged and said, "There's nothing we can do."

That was the first time I realized our former manager had quit on us.

Because Ozzie has the short windups and pickoff moves that keep runners close, and Ozzie has that great catcher's arm to throw out basestealers.

Great if they can perform better at that aspect this year, but again using Ozzie and other former coaches as the scapegoat of all the players' problems is gonna run out if the same thing happens this year.

Lip Man 1
03-01-2012, 04:52 PM
Russ:

Ozzie could have demanded mandatory additional practice time on this. He's the manager, he can order anything he wants, anytime he wants. He didn't. "There's nothing you can do..." Bull****. This from a guy who FOUR STRAIGHT OFF SEASONS repeatedly told the mainstream media that the Sox would be better fundamentally, he'd demand it. LOL.

Lip

Noneck
03-01-2012, 07:55 PM
Lip,

I dont know exactly what went on when Ozzie was there but I have to blame Cooper on this also. Pitchers holding base runners has been abysmal for years with a few exceptions. I would think as the pitching coach he would have the authority to work with pitcher on this without ozzies approval and the way things worked last year maybe even if ozzie didnt give the approval he could still do as he pleased. It was shown he had a lot more backing from above than people perceived.

Lip Man 1
03-01-2012, 08:43 PM
Noneck:

I agree with you, Cooper should also have done something but the bottom line is that it was Ozzie's team...he has 51% of the vote in all matters.

Lip

JB98
03-01-2012, 11:28 PM
Because Ozzie has the short windups and pickoff moves that keep runners close, and Ozzie has that great catcher's arm to throw out basestealers.

Great if they can perform better at that aspect this year, but again using Ozzie and other former coaches as the scapegoat of all the players' problems is gonna run out if the same thing happens this year.

They never worked on it last year. Just ask Pierzynski.

I don't care if the Marlins win 100 this year and the Sox lose 100. I will still rejoice that Guillen is gone. He was a good manager when he first got here. But he was a caricature and a farce the last three years, and last year he flat out quit on this ballclub in May. Unforgivable.

Harry Chappas
03-02-2012, 10:47 AM
Russ:

Ozzie could have demanded mandatory additional practice time on this. He's the manager, he can order anything he wants, anytime he wants. He didn't. "There's nothing you can do..." Bull****. This from a guy who FOUR STRAIGHT OFF SEASONS repeatedly told the mainstream media that the Sox would be better fundamentally, he'd demand it. LOL.

Lip

I'm possibly the furthest thing from an Ozzie apologist as you can be, but I'm not ready to attribute our inability to hold runners on and throw them out to Ozzie, Coop, Cora, or any of the other coaches. I would think by the time these guys get to the major league level, they understand the game well enough to know how to hold a runner on. I think the fundamentals - or lack thereof - are more of an indictment of the players than the coaches. We still have guys that are allergic to bunting and that's on them. If they don't care enough about their craft to work at it, no amount of coaching is going to help.

I'm not completely discounting the fact that even old dogs can learn new tricks, but some of this stuff probably has more to do with low baseball IQs than a lack of coaching.

On the other hand, maybe the Sox players quit along with Guillen and just didn't care enough to pay attention to the nuances of the game. I guess we'll see if things change under new leadership...

doublem23
03-02-2012, 11:09 AM
I'm possibly the furthest thing from an Ozzie apologist as you can be, but I'm not ready to attribute our inability to hold runners on and throw them out to Ozzie, Coop, Cora, or any of the other coaches. I would think by the time these guys get to the major league level, they understand the game well enough to know how to hold a runner on. I think the fundamentals - or lack thereof - are more of an indictment of the players than the coaches. We still have guys that are allergic to bunting and that's on them. If they don't care enough about their craft to work at it, no amount of coaching is going to help.


I'm going to have to agree with this. The Sox aren't running a high school team here. These are professionals who have been playing baseball for probably 10-15 years minimum. The Major Leagues aren't for teaching guys how to do stuff you're expected to know how to do in junior college.

Frater Perdurabo
03-02-2012, 11:23 AM
I'm going to have to agree with this. The Sox aren't running a high school team here. These are professionals who have been playing baseball for probably 10-15 years minimum. The Major Leagues aren't for teaching guys how to do stuff you're expected to know how to do in junior college.

There's a difference between teaching and practicing.

Michael Jordan knew how to shoot a jump shot - none of his NBA coaches had to teach it to him - but he practiced relentlessly to perfect it.

Ozzie talked about not wanting to teach fundamentals, and I agree that MLB players should know how to do things like hold runners on base and throw out base runners, throw to the cutoff man and hit behind the runner, but he seemingly did not put much time into making his players practice those (and other) fundamentals.

Noneck
03-02-2012, 11:25 AM
I'm going to have to agree with this. The Sox aren't running a high school team here. These are professionals who have been playing baseball for probably 10-15 years minimum. The Major Leagues aren't for teaching guys how to do stuff you're expected to know how to do in junior college.

Spring training is there in order to go over the skills you have learned and if necessary to learn what you didnt. I believe this article was about what will be done in spring training not during the season.

amsteel
03-02-2012, 11:29 AM
I'm glad this is something they're working on, but I would be shocked if AJ's CS% goes above 30%, or even 25% in 2012.

doublem23
03-02-2012, 11:35 AM
There's a difference between teaching and practicing.

Michael Jordan knew how to shoot a jump shot - none of his NBA coaches had to teach it to him - but he practiced relentlessly to perfect it.

Ozzie talked about not wanting to teach fundamentals, and I agree that MLB players should know how to do things like hold runners on base and throw out base runners, throw to the cutoff man and hit behind the runner, but he seemingly did not put much time into making his players practice those (and other) fundamentals.

Unless you have inside access to all of the Sox's practices during Spring Training and the regular season, I think it's pretty irresponsible to assume what may or may not have been done based on on-field performance. The Sox magically were a good team at holding baserunners when Mark Buehrle was on the mound, for instance, and probably not because they practiced harder on the days he started.

kufram
03-02-2012, 12:34 PM
There's a difference between teaching and practicing.

Michael Jordan knew how to shoot a jump shot - none of his NBA coaches had to teach it to him - but he practiced relentlessly to perfect it.

Ozzie talked about not wanting to teach fundamentals, and I agree that MLB players should know how to do things like hold runners on base and throw out base runners, throw to the cutoff man and hit behind the runner, but he seemingly did not put much time into making his players practice those (and other) fundamentals.


I doubt very much if any coach had to tell MJ that he needed to go practice his jump shot. Larry Bird was always the last guy off the floor pre-game after taking extra shots. That's why his team went to him for the clutch shots in the game... they knew he'd had more shots.

When you can make millions of dollars and NOT be able to hold runners the incentive is less. Players without the self motivation of an MJ just won't do it..

TomBradley72
03-02-2012, 12:52 PM
Because Ozzie has the short windups and pickoff moves that keep runners close, and Ozzie has that great catcher's arm to throw out basestealers.

Great if they can perform better at that aspect this year, but again using Ozzie and other former coaches as the scapegoat of all the players' problems is gonna run out if the same thing happens this year.

You've always been a huge Ozzie apologist- well- this year we'll see- exact same roster (less Buehrle, Santos & TCQ) but with Ventura in charge.

I think Ventura is going to have a very positive impact on this team- and Ozzie is going to be exposed by the improvement of this team even thought the roster lost some important pieces.

Ozzie is a good major league manager- but he was not a very good manager his last few years with the White Sox.

TomBradley72
03-02-2012, 12:54 PM
They never worked on it last year. Just ask Pierzynski.

I don't care if the Marlins win 100 this year and the Sox lose 100. I will still rejoice that Guillen is gone. He was a good manager when he first got here. But he was a caricature and a farce the last three years, and last year he flat out quit on this ballclub in May. Unforgivable.

+1

Well said.

amsteel
03-02-2012, 02:10 PM
I don't that Ozzie was holding a gun to AJ's head telling him to not practice stolen bases.

AJ and Coop and whoever could have worked on it on their own. I realize if it wasn't coming down from OG it probably wasn't gonna happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

Harry Chappas
03-02-2012, 05:02 PM
I don't that Ozzie was holding a gun to AJ's head telling him to not practice stolen bases.

AJ and Coop and whoever could have worked on it on their own. I realize if it wasn't coming down from OG it probably wasn't gonna happen, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

I agree. Wouldn't practicing pick-off moves, holding runners, pitch-outs, etc. fall under Coop's purview? Seems like this is more of a coach's job than a manager's but I guess if Ozzie stepped in and told them NOT to work on such fundamentals, then he's at least partly to blame.

In the end, it's usually the players that make coaches/managers look good or bad and I think this is especially true in baseball. Players with low 'baseball IQs' tend to repeat the same mistakes whether it Ron Gardenhire, Joe Madden, or Ozzie Guillen coaching them. Unfortunately, it seems like the Sox have more than their fair share of players without a clue.

TomBradley72
03-03-2012, 10:10 AM
I agree. Wouldn't practicing pick-off moves, holding runners, pitch-outs, etc. fall under Coop's purview? Seems like this is more of a coach's job than a manager's but I guess if Ozzie stepped in and told them NOT to work on such fundamentals, then he's at least partly to blame.

In the end, it's usually the players that make coaches/managers look good or bad and I think this is especially true in baseball. Players with low 'baseball IQs' tend to repeat the same mistakes whether it Ron Gardenhire, Joe Madden, or Ozzie Guillen coaching them. Unfortunately, it seems like the Sox have more than their fair share of players without a clue.

There's alot of truth in these comments- but at some point the leader sets the tone and the expectations- you have to have good, talented, hard working people in any organization (sports, business, etc.)- but the leader/manager is reponsible for setting expectations, priorities,etc.