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View Full Version : are they really this bad?


idseer
07-20-2002, 09:57 PM
there was a point at which i thought they were just unlucky.
i really felt that even with poor managership (?) this team had too much talent not to win this division. as much as i dislike jm, i find myself wondering if what i thought was talent was just an illusion.

i know most people are just mad right now, but i wonder which way you really feel. is this team just being misguided horribly, or are they really this bad?
i can blame a lot of stuff on jm, and yet, these are men playing this game which isn't a whole lot different than when they played in high school. even if you have a dumbass manager, shouldn't you still be able to play? it seems they don't know anymore. maybe they don't care but at some point they did care and it didn't seem to matter.

so ... is this a talent laden team? or is this a poor team in the games worst division?

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-20-2002, 10:02 PM
poor team in worst division, it doesn't matter WHAT division you're in, you should be able to win serieses against some of the worst teams in the league like detroit, kc(they're winning but they're still bad) and cleveland. :(: :angry:

Iguana775
07-20-2002, 10:05 PM
we should easily handled this division with the talent this team has. period. but piss poor coaching has made this team undisciplined on the base path and at the plate.

Jerry_Manuel
07-20-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
we should easily handled this division with the talent this team has. period.

Who?

Konerko, Ordonez, and maybe Durham.

Lofton is done, Alomar is done, and Royce is bad. Thomas isn't what he was in the past, and Jose isn't as good as 2000.

On the pitching end you have: Marte, Buehrle, Garland, maybe Biddle and Wright. Other than that this team has nothing.

duke of dorwood
07-20-2002, 10:12 PM
I cant believe I overrated this group so. Apparently I wasnt alone

idseer
07-20-2002, 10:13 PM
maybe it is all in the coaching and managing. it would mean that even tho we look at last place teams and say they stink etc., there is really a fine line between winning and losing thruout the course of a season. just as there's only a millimeter of difference on the bat between a homerun and a popup.

the worst player in the major leagues is, in fact, one of the best players in the world. in the top 99.999% ... maybe higher.

it does seem the sox don't do the little things well and often that one little thing is all the difference in a game.
are the coaches totally inept? are they afraid to tell these guys what they're doing wrong? does jm have the respect of no one in that dugout?

Jerry_Manuel
07-20-2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by idseer
are the coaches totally inept? are they afraid to tell these guys what they're doing wrong? does jm have the respect of no one in that dugout?

Nardi doesn't know how to work with the pitchers. Ward doesn't have much to work with either.

Why should the players respect Manuel? If they don't like what he's doing they can just go have a secret meeting with Williams.

idseer
07-20-2002, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Nardi doesn't know how to work with the pitchers. Ward doesn't have much to work with either.

Why should the players respect Manuel? If they don't like what he's doing they can just go have a secret meeting with Williams.

very true. the main guy the players deal with is undermined by his own boss.
how can a supposedly successful businessman like reinsdork sanction this?

duke of dorwood
07-20-2002, 11:30 PM
I heard the writer from the Daily Southtown (I think) on the radio today. He says that the real clubhouse problem is not Frank, it's Clayton. He described an instance where Gary Ward wanted Clayton to work on some things, and Clayton never took his stereo headphones off. It starts there.

Jerry_Manuel
07-20-2002, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I heard the writer from the Daily Southtown (I think) on the radio today. He says that the real clubhouse problem is not Frank, it's Clayton. He described an instance where Gary Ward wanted Clayton to work on some things, and Clayton never took his stereo headphones off. It starts there.

No way he pulled that <swear> again.

Clayton did that last year with Von. I can't see him doing that to Ward to. If that is true, then Ward is a liar. When he took over for Joshua, he told the media that he was going to be "In their face".

Yeah, right.

bc2k
07-21-2002, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by idseer

i know most people are just mad right now, but i wonder which way you really feel. is this team just being misguided horribly, or are they really this bad?
so ... is this a talent laden team? or is this a poor team in the games worst division?

idseer, I believe a few things took this team down. One problem that has been beaten worse than Danny Wright in the first inning is the poor job Nardi has done. If a real pitching coach was here, who knows how much more progress Wright, Garland, even Rauch at a time.
A second problem that I haven't heard too much about is the advanced scouting. It is common knowledge that the Sox do poor against foreign pitchers. Well since Ward cannot develop a plan against an unseen pitcher, I believe it is the duty of the advanced scouts. The scout must find info on the pitchers and relay it to Gary Ward, who must relay it to his players.
And the third problem with this team is Keith Foulke. The reason Manuel is playing closer-by-committee is the inibility of Keith to be that closer. Although maybe this third problem is really a dilemma caused by the second problem (lack of a quality pitching coach).

So if the Sox get a new pitching coach and better advanced scouting for 2003, I bet we will be division champs once again.

NUKE_CLEVELAND
07-21-2002, 02:19 AM
Yes, they really are this bad.

baggio202
07-21-2002, 05:35 AM
we had a 64 million dollar payroll last year...won 83 games...so this year we cut to 57 million..we are 18th in payroll and 19 th in winning pct...so you can pretty much say we are getting exactly what we paid for...in '00 we caught everyone off gaurd with our 30 million dollar payroll...that wont happen every year...

we have 3 starters with era's over 5..a 4th has an overall era of 4.62 but as a starter is also over 5...4 starting pitchers with era's over 5...yes..we are this bad....and we ant even replace one of these guys in the rotation because nobody in the minors or in the pen could do a better job... they are either too young, too crappy or too injured

Dan H
07-21-2002, 08:35 AM
This team has talent in spots but none of it meshes. But the worst thing is that the Sox just seem to fold their tent and go home when playing in tight games. It began with the 2000 playoffs and hasn't stopped. When winning the division, the Sox looked like they were in the game, no matter what the score. Now, they wait for something bad to happen and it usually does. The real difference between good and bad teams is what they do in one-run and other close games. The Sox are 5-17 in one-run games. That says it all.

LongDistanceFan
07-21-2002, 10:40 AM
i know we have discussed this many times and i will still say this, some sort of chemistry is needed. if there is frustration with the coaching, it is compounded by an internal problem(clayton), you have a ingredients to tear apart the team.

anybody could bring up problem teams from the past, but that is a different story, in a different era, with a different mentality for the game.

btw, if this is true about clayton, i wonder what clayton backers have to say?

idseer
07-21-2002, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
i know we have discussed this many times and i will still say this, some sort of chemistry is needed. if there is frustration with the coaching, it is compounded by an internal problem(clayton), you have a ingredients to tear apart the team.

anybody could bring up problem teams from the past, but that is a different story, in a different era, with a different mentality for the game.

btw, if this is true about clayton, i wonder what clayton backers have to say?

if i did pictures and stuff, i'd post a picture here of richard nixon raising his hand in the 'victory' sign and my caption would read ... i am NOT a clayton backer.

i'm not! never was. i only thought he was our best option at ss at the time and found myself defending him only because no one else would. i was more optimistic about what he'd do this year based on how he finished last year (much like the whole team), and how he did in spring training. instead, the clown did the same damn thing as last year early!
but ... since i may be as close to a 'clayton backer' as we have around here i'll try to reply.

other than a few minor incidents i've read about, royce didn't seem all that bad clubhouse-wise. no worse than manyballplayers have been thru the years. i really doubt that royce is a significant part of what's wrong with the team.

but IF ....... and you did say 'if', it were true, then there is no defense of the guy at all. it would be bad enough he had the 'diva' attitude, but he'd have it without the talent that usually is a saving grace of a diva!

let me add ........ if he were nearly as bad as some make him out to be, then management is at fault for his continued presence.