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chisoxfanatic
01-31-2012, 05:36 PM
I think that Paul Konerko without a question deserves to have his own statue on our outfield concourse. But, I was wondering what everyone at WSI was thinking. I know some people have posted that they think there are too many statues out there. But, what about Paulie?

I think that he has been the face of the Sox the past decade, and especially since Frank left. When people think of current White Sox baseball, I'd think Paulie would be the first guy who comes to peoples' minds.

Shoeless_Jeff
01-31-2012, 05:50 PM
How can you argue against Konerko having a statue?

October26
01-31-2012, 05:55 PM
I think that Paul Konerko without a question deserves to have his own statue on our outfield concourse. But, I was wondering what everyone at WSI was thinking. I know some people have posted that they think there are too many statues out there. But, what about Paulie?

I think that he has been the face of the Sox the past decade, and especially since Frank left. When people think of current White Sox baseball, I'd think Paulie would be the first guy who comes to peoples' minds.

I would say yes to a statue for Paulie based on his career stats as well as the reason you listed above - face of the franchise.

russ99
01-31-2012, 05:59 PM
While I'd really like to see Konerko duly honored after his career, I'm not sure if he's statue worthy, at least at this point.

There's a pecking order in such things: retired number, then statue. Paul's should be a retired number, then we'll see.

Other than Baines, who's an admitted JR favorite, who would you remove as a statue to put in Konerko?

Besides, Paul already figures prominently on a statue, the 2005 World Series statue by Gate 4.

EMachine10
01-31-2012, 06:31 PM
While I'd really like to see Konerko duly honored after his career, I'm not sure if he's statue worthy, at least at this point.

There's a pecking order in such things: retired number, then statue. Paul's should be a retired number, then we'll see.

Other than Baines, who's an admitted JR favorite, who would you remove as a statue to put in Konerko?

Besides, Paul already figures prominently on a statue, the 2005 World Series statue by Gate 4.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do they need to remove a statue in order to put one up for Paul?

thomas35forever
01-31-2012, 06:31 PM
Absolutely. Considering all he's done for this team for over a decade, it'd be a crime if he didn't get one.

LITTLE NELL
01-31-2012, 06:49 PM
No Doubt, 2nd in lifetime HRs and RBIs for the Sox. If he has 3 more good years he might wind with more HRs and ribbies than Thomas.

Frontman
01-31-2012, 07:05 PM
Not to mention hitting the greatest grand slam in White Sox history.

Now, that said, his "seat" is an honor itself. If Paul continues to perform like he has for the White Sox, I can see him getting a statue.

As far as retiring a number? That wall is already pretty crowded; but if there are two WS team members who deserve their numbers added to that wall, #14 and #56 would need to be added.

Falstaff
02-01-2012, 03:38 AM
How can you argue against Konerko having a statue?
1) Konerko has not retired at this time.
2) Acronym "GIDPK" ring a bell?
3) Statues are expensive, how about funding the farm system?
4) Altho PK generally does his job in relentless fashion, he is not
spectacular.
5) JD was WS MVP, yet not stat?

Those argumets quickly come to mind.
Many thought he was about washed up around 2003, hats off
for sustaining a pretty good career and home town discount.

soxfanatlanta
02-01-2012, 07:11 AM
A statue of PK eating a churro; heaven on earth.

eriqjaffe
02-01-2012, 08:31 AM
Yes, and I can even suggest the pose:

http://www.sox35th.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/paulkonerkowsgrandslam.jpg

Procol Harum
02-01-2012, 08:40 AM
A statue of PK eating a churro; heaven on earth.

Cue the angel choir, indeed...

DumpJerry
02-01-2012, 08:40 AM
I think the person who came up with the Helmet Nacho should get a statue ASAP.

russ99
02-01-2012, 08:44 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, but why do they need to remove a statue in order to put one up for Paul?

No, just pointing out the career performance of the players that have statues.

I'm not sure if Paul is at that level, at least yet.

Milw
02-01-2012, 09:34 AM
Owns (arguably) the most important/dramatic home run in franchise history.
Is #2 on both the all-time franchise HR and RBI lists, will become #2 on the all-time franchise Total Bases list sometime in the first week of this season, and has a decent shot at becoming #1 in each category.
Was the unofficial MVP of the franchise's only world championship team in our lifetimes.
Barring trade, will have spent nearly all of a 15-season career with the Sox.
Barring trade, will rank #2 in franchise history in games played.
Is an upstanding citizen and gentleman.

In every sense--momentous events, longevity, career numbers, intangibles--Paul Konerko has established himself as a franchise icon. If he had played 50 years ago, we would be talking about him in the same reverent ways we discuss Minoso, Nellie, Aparicio...



We don't have the long-horizon perspective on him yet, but future generations will rank him among a handful of White Sox legends, higher on the list even than many of the men cast in bronze on the outfield concourse.

gobears1987
02-01-2012, 09:44 AM
Arguing against Paulie's statue...

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbc5nmyuaG1qdoghio1_500.png

esbrechtel
02-01-2012, 10:44 AM
Also he was the ALCS MVP, and he gave Jerry the ball from the final out. I think he will get one

TDog
02-01-2012, 12:36 PM
...
Other than Baines, who's an admitted JR favorite, who would you remove as a statue to put in Konerko? ..

I am simply amazed at the lack of respect Harold Baines gets around here.

palehosepub
02-01-2012, 12:50 PM
I am simply amazed at the lack of respect Harold Baines gets around here.

Agreed. If you watched a lot of 1980's baseball you would remember what a clutch hitter Baines was.. he was a very gifted hitter that probably loses some recognition because he played on some really bad White Sox teams as well as the fact that he was a DH.

Milw
02-01-2012, 12:51 PM
I am simply amazed at the lack of respect Harold Baines gets around here.
Speaking as someone too young to remember him in his prime: His numbers, while very good, are not special enough to warrant jersey retirement, let alone a statue. I defer to others on his value as judged by the "eye test" and intangibles, but on paper--and that's all anyone younger than about 35 can really go by--he isn't that special.

palehosepub
02-01-2012, 01:09 PM
Just a reminder HB was 134 hits short of 3000 hits. He hit nearly 400 home runs playing most of his career in a big park. He had a .356 OBP. Six time All Star. Also, statisticly Baseball-Reference.com lists his stats as comparable to this list of players:
Tony Perez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/perezto01.shtml) (943) *
Al Kaline (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kalinal01.shtml) (883) *
Dave Parker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/parkeda01.shtml) (871)
Billy Williams (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibi01.shtml) (863) *
Andre Dawson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dawsoan01.shtml) (856) *
Rusty Staub (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/staubru01.shtml) (855)
Luis Gonzalez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gonzalu01.shtml) (850)
Dwight Evans (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/evansdw01.shtml) (845)
Chili Davis (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/davisch01.shtml) (825)
Jim Rice (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/riceji01.shtml) (805) *
Nice comparables.

Is Harold a HOF? No.

Did JR overreact and prematurely retire his jersey? Yes.

Does he deserve a statue as one of the greatest White Sox players ever? Absolutely, in my opinion.

Milw
02-01-2012, 02:18 PM
Just a reminder HB was 134 hits short of 3000 hits. He hit nearly 400 home runs playing most of his career in a big park. He had a .356 OBP. Six time All Star. Also, statisticly Baseball-Reference.com lists his stats as comparable to this list of players:

Tony Perez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/perezto01.shtml) (943) *
Al Kaline (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kalinal01.shtml) (883) *
Dave Parker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/parkeda01.shtml) (871)
Billy Williams (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibi01.shtml) (863) *
Andre Dawson (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dawsoan01.shtml) (856) *
Rusty Staub (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/staubru01.shtml) (855)
Luis Gonzalez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gonzalu01.shtml) (850)
Dwight Evans (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/evansdw01.shtml) (845)
Chili Davis (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/davisch01.shtml) (825)
Jim Rice (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/riceji01.shtml) (805) *

Nice comparables.

Is Harold a HOF? No.

Did JR overreact and prematurely retire his jersey? Yes.

Does he deserve a statue as one of the greatest White Sox players ever? Absolutely, in my opinion.
He never finished higher than ninth in MVP voting. He didn't receive a single MVP vote over his final 16 seasons (!). His season-high for HR was 29, and his 162-game average was 22. He logged 100 RBI three times in 22 years.

He has very nice career numbers, but they're due more to being consistently good over the course of a very long career, rather than having been outstanding. I take nothing away from Harold's longevity or consistency. But on paper, he's just not that impressive.

tstrike2000
02-01-2012, 02:21 PM
I think by the time Paulie retires, with his numbers, the World Series, and just what he's meant to this team, it would be awfully hard to justify not having a statue.

russ99
02-01-2012, 03:12 PM
Agreed. If you watched a lot of 1980's baseball you would remember what a clutch hitter Baines was.. he was a very gifted hitter that probably loses some recognition because he played on some really bad White Sox teams as well as the fact that he was a DH.

I do remember that Baines was a great hitter, but he played second (or sometimes third) fiddle on the team to Fisk.

Also, the whole retired jersey after 13 years of good but not HOF-level South Side baseball well before he retires annoyed me no end. Jerry is quoted that Baines is his favorite player, so he did get some special treatment.

IMO, Hall of famers like Lyons and Appling should have gotten a statue well before Baines was considered.

palehosepub
02-01-2012, 03:26 PM
I do remember that Baines was a great hitter, but he played second (or sometimes third) fiddle on the team to Fisk.

Also, the whole retired jersey after 13 years of good but not HOF-level South Side baseball well before he retires annoyed me no end. Jerry is quoted that Baines is his favorite player, so he did get some special treatment.

IMO, Hall of famers like Lyons and Appling should have gotten a statue well before Baines was considered.

I cant disagree with either point.

SephClone89
02-01-2012, 03:56 PM
1) Konerko has not retired at this time.
2) Acronym "GIDPK" ring a bell?
3) Statues are expensive, how about funding the farm system?
4) Altho PK generally does his job in relentless fashion, he is not
spectacular.
5) JD was WS MVP, yet not stat?

All of those except #1 are poor arguments.

gobears1987
02-01-2012, 11:00 PM
All of those except #1 are poor arguments.

Poor arguments? You're really being too nice there. Try flat out stupid arguments.

chisoxfanatic
02-01-2012, 11:03 PM
All of those except #1 are poor arguments.
And #1 has nothing to do with the question I put in the poll.

Shoeless_Jeff
02-02-2012, 01:32 AM
1) Konerko has not retired at this time.
2) Acronym "GIDPK" ring a bell?
3) Statues are expensive, how about funding the farm system?
4) Altho PK generally does his job in relentless fashion, he is not
spectacular.
5) JD was WS MVP, yet not stat?

Those argumets quickly come to mind.
Many thought he was about washed up around 2003, hats off
for sustaining a pretty good career and home town discount.

Cool story, bro.

TDog
02-02-2012, 12:08 PM
I do remember that Baines was a great hitter, but he played second (or sometimes third) fiddle on the team to Fisk.

Also, the whole retired jersey after 13 years of good but not HOF-level South Side baseball well before he retires annoyed me no end. Jerry is quoted that Baines is his favorite player, so he did get some special treatment.

IMO, Hall of famers like Lyons and Appling should have gotten a statue well before Baines was considered.

As I wrote yesterday, the lack of respect Harold Baines gets around here amazes me.

In Appling's early years of Hall of Fame eligibility, he had less support than Baines did in his. Under today's rules, Appling would have been dropped from the ballot after his first year of eligibility and forgotten until he was considered by the Veteran's Committee. The fact that Appling eventually was elected to the Hall of Fame is one of the reasons is so fondly remembered. Certainly, I never saw Appling play.

One of the reasons he has a statue is to remind people who never saw him play, or never noticed what a special hitter he was, that he was worthy of remembering.

TommyJohn
02-02-2012, 02:20 PM
As I wrote yesterday, the lack of respect Harold Baines gets around here amazes me.

In Appling's early years of Hall of Fame eligibility, he had less support than Baines did in his. Under today's rules, Appling would have been dropped from the ballot after his first year of eligibility and forgotten until he was considered by the Veteran's Committee. The fact that Appling eventually was elected to the Hall of Fame is one of the reasons is so fondly remembered. Certainly, I never saw Appling play.

One of the reasons he has a statue is to remind people who never saw him play, or never noticed what a special hitter he was, that he was worthy of remembering.

Baines was a very good player. He was not that great. Appling on the other hand hit .388 in one season, won two batting titles, hit over .300 15 times, banged out 2,749 hits in a career interrupted by World War II (he would doubtless have gotten to 3,000). Who cares what his Hall of Fame vote totals were? They had different election rules back then.

Baines, while good, was not a better player than Don Mattingly, who isn't in the Hall, nor should he be.

On the other hand, I will shout loud and long that Frank Thomas belongs, and I feel he'll have a hard time getting in because guys like Rick "Max Mercy" Telander are still offended that Thomas was a DH.

DSpivack
02-02-2012, 02:41 PM
Baines was a very good player. He was not that great. Appling on the other hand hit .388 in one season, won two batting titles, hit over .300 15 times, banged out 2,749 hits in a career interrupted by World War II (he would doubtless have gotten to 3,000). Who cares what his Hall of Fame vote totals were? They had different election rules back then.

Baines, while good, was not a better player than Don Mattingly, who isn't in the Hall, nor should he be.

On the other hand, I will shout loud and long that Frank Thomas belongs, and I feel he'll have a hard time getting in because guys like Rick "Max Mercy" Telander are still offended that Thomas was a DH.

Thomas will get in, easily.

And when he does, I certainly hope I will be able to take time off work and afford a trip to Cooperstown.

Frontman
02-02-2012, 03:55 PM
Baines was a very good player. He was not that great. Appling on the other hand hit .388 in one season, won two batting titles, hit over .300 15 times, banged out 2,749 hits in a career interrupted by World War II (he would doubtless have gotten to 3,000). Who cares what his Hall of Fame vote totals were? They had different election rules back then.

Baines, while good, was not a better player than Don Mattingly, who isn't in the Hall, nor should he be.

On the other hand, I will shout loud and long that Frank Thomas belongs, and I feel he'll have a hard time getting in because guys like Rick "Max Mercy" Telander are still offended that Thomas was a DH.

Telander can take a flying leap. He has been out of touch with sports and sports fans for far too long now.

Frank most certainly deserves to be in the Hall. A Hell of a player, and was the face of the White Sox franchise for well over a decade. His numbers don't lie.

Milw
02-02-2012, 06:35 PM
As I wrote yesterday, the lack of respect Harold Baines gets around here amazes me.

Am I not giving Harold his due respect to say that he was a very good but not great player who doesn't really deserve the statue he has? Because if I'm out of line, please, convince me. I cited numbers showing that Baines was not a special player, merely a very good player who had an extraordinarily long career. I'm open to an argument to the contrary, but I have yet to read a convincing one.

dickallen15
02-02-2012, 06:59 PM
As long as JR is alive when Paulie hangs up the spikes, he's a lock to have a statue and his number retired.

TDog
02-02-2012, 08:20 PM
Am I not giving Harold his due respect to say that he was a very good but not great player who doesn't really deserve the statue he has? Because if I'm out of line, please, convince me. I cited numbers showing that Baines was not a special player, merely a very good player who had an extraordinarily long career. I'm open to an argument to the contrary, but I have yet to read a convincing one.

If you believe Harold Baines was no better than the stats you choose to look at, you aren't giving his career the respect it deserves. Players that played with him will tell you that.

Milw
02-02-2012, 09:31 PM
If you believe Harold Baines was no better than the stats you choose to look at, you aren't giving his career the respect it deserves. Players that played with him will tell you that.
Like I said before, I'm too young to remember watching him in his prime. If there is a non-stat argument to be made in favor of Harold as a special player, I'm listening. Or, if there are stats other than the ones I "choose to look at," then by all means, point me to them.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you have to actually make an argument.

Brian26
02-02-2012, 10:10 PM
Like I said before, I'm too young to remember watching him in his prime. If there is a non-stat argument to be made in favor of Harold as a special player, I'm listening. Or, if there are stats other than the ones I "choose to look at," then by all means, point me to them.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you have to actually make an argument.

Game Winning RBI.

Not a stat that's kept anymore. It's a stat that Harold owned....back when you were "too young to remember watching him."

That, and the fact that he would have finished with over 3000 hits if he hadn't been traded to Texas and eventually Oakland, two stacked teams in the late 80s/early 90s that only could find playing time for him with a platoon.

Milw
02-02-2012, 10:33 PM
Game Winning RBI.

Not a stat that's kept anymore. It's a stat that Harold owned....back when you were "too young to remember watching him."

That, and the fact that he would have finished with over 3000 hits if he hadn't been traded to Texas and eventually Oakland, two stacked teams in the late 80s/early 90s that only could find playing time for him with a platoon.
You put that in quotes as if being 6 years old isn't a good enough excuse for not being able to appreciate baseball analysis. Anyway.

There's a reason why GWRBI isn't a stat that's still kept: it's a rather fluky one.

I conceded that Harold's career totals are impressive, but they're impressive only in a context of longevity. That's not nothing, but I'd take a truly great player with a 10-year career over a very good player with a 20-year career.

Let's look at Harold's first nine seasons, before he was traded from the Sox. In fact, let's even throw out his 1981, when he only played in 82 games (every other season to that point he appeared in at least 132). Here are his season averages:
R: 71
H: 164
HR: 20
RBI: 90
BA: .287

Those are season averages over his best years. I'm sorry, but that's just not that impressive. They're solid, don't get me wrong, but they're not special. They're barely even All Star-caliber.

Brian26
02-02-2012, 10:41 PM
You put that in quotes as if being 6 years old isn't a good enough excuse for not being able to appreciate baseball analysis. Anyway.

Perhaps its an excuse to make silly statements then...

Let's look at Harold's first nine seasons, before he was traded from the Sox. In fact, let's even throw out his 1981, when he only played in 82 games (every other season to that point he appeared in at least 132). There was a strike during the 1981 season that wiped out over 50 games. The Sox only played 106 games that year.

Here are his season averages:
R: 71
H: 164
HR: 20
RBI: 90
BA: .287

Those are season averages over his best years. I'm sorry, but that's just not that impressive. They're solid, don't get me wrong, but they're not special. They're barely even All Star-caliber.Take a look at all-star statistics from that era. Everything needs to be looked at in context. Hitting 20 homers was an accomplishment back then before the bandbox ballparks, tightly-wound baseballs and steroids/HGH. That wasn't an era where you're number nine hitter, like Juan Uribe, could be penciled in for 20 homers. A 9-year average of 20 HR, .287 and 90 RBI was superstar-like in the late 70s to late 80s.

Milw
02-02-2012, 11:29 PM
Perhaps its an excuse to make silly statements then...

There was a strike during the 1981 season that wiped out over 50 games. The Sox only played 106 games that year.

Take a look at all-star statistics from that era. Everything needs to be looked at in context. Hitting 20 homers was an accomplishment back then before the bandbox ballparks, tightly-wound baseballs and steroids/HGH. That wasn't an era where you're number nine hitter, like Juan Uribe, could be penciled in for 20 homers. A 9-year average of 20 HR, .287 and 90 RBI was superstar-like in the late 70s to late 80s.
He finished in the top 10 in HRs once: 9th, in 1984.
Top 10 in RBIs twice: 8th in 82, 4th in 85.
Top 10 in Rs... never.
Top 10 in BA thrice: 84 (10th), 85 (6th), 89 (8th).
Over the course of his entire 22-year career, he led the league in a major statistical category exactly once: In 1984, he slugged .541.

His highest finish in MVP voting was 9th, in 1985.

Even in the context of the small-ball 80s, he was a very-good-but-not-great player.

Frater Perdurabo
02-03-2012, 05:43 AM
I think he also gets less respect because he DHed for much of his career, only because of an knee injury to his knees.

Baines wasn't the stereotypical David Ortiz/Adam Dunn who was moved to DH so his butcher glove wouldn't hurt his team. He was moved to DH to keep his bat in the lineup without getting hurt playing the field. Before his injury, he was a formidable defensive right fielder.

If he had played for an NL team, he would have been moved to first base and he never would have been criticized for DHing.

KenBerryGrab
02-03-2012, 10:10 AM
In his prime, Harold had arguably the second-best rightfield arm in the AL behind Dwight Evans.

Nellie_Fox
02-04-2012, 12:04 AM
In his prime, Harold had arguably the second-best rightfield arm in the AL behind Dwight Evans.And before the knees went, he was very fast.

Noneck
02-04-2012, 12:11 AM
And before the knees went, he was very fast.

But for some reason he wasnt a base stealer. His season high was only 10 and had only 34 in a 22 year career.

Nellie_Fox
02-04-2012, 12:23 AM
But for some reason he wasnt a base stealer. His season high was only 10 and had only 34 in a 22 year career.Speed is a very small part of base stealing. Reading pitchers and getting good jumps is more important, and not something that all fast guys can master. I remember they tried to work on base stealing with Harold when he was very young, and it just never went anywhere.

MetroPD
02-15-2012, 07:18 PM
While Paulie didn't start his career here, he has been with us for so long that he might as well have. He has demonstrated at least to this point that he beyond a shadow of a doubt is a White Sox.

FarmerAndy
02-17-2012, 09:34 AM
I didn't read a thing here that translates to a lack of respect for Harold Baines.

Harold was my first favorite player. I grew up with a Harold Baines poster on my bedroom wall when I was a kid. I'm still a big fan. But to say that he was not a "great" player, but rather a really good player with longevity, is not at all disrespectful. It's simply telling the truth.

TDog
02-17-2012, 03:13 PM
I didn't read a thing here that translates to a lack of respect for Harold Baines.

Harold was my first favorite player. I grew up with a Harold Baines poster on my bedroom wall when I was a kid. I'm still a big fan. But to say that he was not a "great" player, but rather a really good player with longevity, is not at all disrespectful. It's simply telling the truth.

I'm sorry I started this hijack, but certainly to imply that Harold Baines is not deserving of a statue on the concourse is showing him a lack of respect. Really, to say he was nothing more than a really good player is showing him a lack of respect. To write that he played second or third fiddle to other hitters during his first stint with the White Sox is something his teammates would dispute, and is certainly showing him a lack of respect.

Even the issue of game winning RBIs. It wasn't a fluke statistic. If it was a fluke statistic, it would have been distributed among the RBI leaders. Like any statistic, it could be deceptive, and it was discontinued because it was more deceptive than most statistics because players were getting credit for game winning RBIs by leading off shutout wins with home runs. The difference was that Baines consistently led the league in game winning RBIs, before and after the stat was official. And when you figured the percentage of his total RBIs that put the White Sox ahead for good in games that they won, you see how important his RBIs were, especially when you figure that in some of those cases the game-winning RBI came in at bats where more than one RBI was required to put the Sox in the lead. They weren't all walk-off RBIs as in the 25 inning game or the 1983 division-clinching game. But they weren't a fluke. Baines even drove in the only run in his only start in the 2000 ALDS after Thomas and Konerko did nothing in the first two games, although many Sox fans accused Manuel of being an ineffective idiot for starting him.

All of that isn't even taking into consideration the incredible pain, without complaint, that he had to endure to play as his career progressed.

You are telling the truth, though, in that you didn't appreciate what made Harold Baines great. He didn't get his statue because he was the chairman's pet.