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View Full Version : Billy Beane looking at Mannyball?


Fenway
01-30-2012, 08:52 PM
:?:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/01/29/sports/s122825S07.DTL

gobears1987
01-31-2012, 05:08 AM
Billy Beane is an idiot and Moneyball is a farce.

Nellie_Fox
01-31-2012, 01:20 PM
Billy Beane is an idiot and Moneyball is a farce.But, but, theres a book! And a movie! And Brad Pitt!

VenturaFan23
01-31-2012, 01:46 PM
How the heck does this organization still have fans?

SI1020
01-31-2012, 02:15 PM
How the heck does this organization still have fans? They do?

Lip Man 1
01-31-2012, 04:06 PM
Sounds like the late 70's all over again.

Lip

Tragg
01-31-2012, 04:44 PM
Manny playing ball in Oakland is like an alcoholic getting a job as a bartender.

tstrike2000
02-01-2012, 07:23 AM
Maybe Conseco will visit the clubhouse and inject Manny in the ass with Vitamin B12 for old times sake.

MisterB
02-01-2012, 10:27 AM
Maybe Conseco will visit the clubhouse and inject Manny in the ass with Vitamin B12 for old times sake.

Actually Conseco (http://www.conseco.com/) would probably try to sell him insurance, but Jose Canseco might give him a shot...

:tongue:

shes
02-01-2012, 11:50 PM
Billy Beane is an idiot and Moneyball is a farce.

And yet every organization now has devoted sabermetric analysts.

Not to defend Beane, but there is a place on the diamond for the computer.

SephClone89
02-01-2012, 11:57 PM
Billy Beane is an idiot and Moneyball is a farce.

Well, that's it. Case closed.

Thanks for clearing all that up for us.

DSpivack
02-02-2012, 12:00 AM
And yet every organization now has devoted sabermetric analysts.

Not to defend Beane, but there is a place on the diamond for the computer.

Bill James was around before Billy Beane lucked into the Big 3.

And sabermetrics wasn't even the point of Moneyball (if there even was one).

WhiteSox5187
02-02-2012, 01:11 AM
And yet every organization now has devoted sabermetric analysts.

Not to defend Beane, but there is a place on the diamond for the computer.

Teams were using sabermetrics and other stats well before Moneyball was written. Beane was just the guy they wrote a book about.

Daver
02-02-2012, 01:22 AM
Teams were using sabermetrics and other stats well before Moneyball was written. Beane was just the guy they wrote a book about.

He also fired a scouting staff in favor of a stat based approach to talent acquisition.

Fenway
02-02-2012, 01:34 AM
The Red Sox 10 years ago hired Bill James as Senior Advisor/Baseball Operations.

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

You have to wonder what does he tell Boston that he does not publish otherwise and how much clout does he have?

SI1020
02-02-2012, 07:41 AM
The Red Sox 10 years ago hired Bill James as Senior Advisor/Baseball Operations.

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=bos

You have to wonder what does he tell Boston that he does not publish otherwise and how much clout does he have? I give the revolution James started very mixed reviews. I have found James to be knowledgeable about the relative merits of many past players, including some who have been largely ignored despite having stellar careers. Just like with any new idea or theory, it is often the most fervent devotees that turn people off. As for Beane, his success is more the stuff of myth and legend than anything else.

gobears1987
02-02-2012, 07:44 AM
And yet every organization now has devoted sabermetric analysts.

Not to defend Beane, but there is a place on the diamond for the computer.

What has Beane done since the Big Three left?

Exactly. Moneyball is a farce and that highly touted draft that the book raved about was a ****ty draft that led to Nick Swisher and Mark Teahen.


I'm not saying Kenny Williams is smart. (He's not if he picks up Beane's guys)

asindc
02-02-2012, 08:00 AM
My biggest indictment against Beane is that his best players (the Big 3, Tejada, Giambi, Ethier) could have been identified as top tier players without the use of sabermetrics, so I'm skeptical as to the actual impact of that approach. Besides, I think he fired his scouting staff to save money moreso than to improve talent identification.

PatK
02-02-2012, 01:45 PM
My biggest indictment against Beane is that his best players (the Big 3, Tejada, Giambi, Ethier) could have been identified as top tier players without the use of sabermetrics, so I'm skeptical as to the actual impact of that approach. Besides, I think he fired his scouting staff to save money moreso than to improve talent identification.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the scouts he fired and replaced with the "stat based" scouts find the Big 3?

asindc
02-02-2012, 01:53 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the scouts he fired and replaced with the "stat based" scouts find the Big 3?

My point isn't that using a stats-based approach would not identify talent, but that it was not needed to identify the talent that brought Beane his greatest successes.

SephClone89
02-04-2012, 10:21 PM
Moneyball is a farce and that highly touted draft that the book raved about was a ****ty draft that led to Nick Swisher and Mark Teahen.

So it's personal. Gotcha.

Btw: Nick Swisher has been a quite productive big league player.

Lip Man 1
02-05-2012, 11:34 AM
My only comment about "Moneyball" is that I found it ironically funny that the GM in the book who was made to look like a fool has actually gotten to and won a World Series while the GM made to look like a visionary genius hasn't and hasn't even had a winning season with his philosophy in what? five years??

Lip

Fenway
02-20-2012, 01:18 PM
Manny goes to Oakland

500K and can not play until June 2

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7594873/manny-ramirez-agrees-deal-oakland-as

The Dude
02-20-2012, 01:26 PM
Manny goes to Oakland

500K and can not play until June 2

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7594873/manny-ramirez-agrees-deal-oakland-as

Low risk possible medium reward? Or just Manny fading further away. Either way, I'd take Manny over Fukudome as a reserve

MtGrnwdSoxFan
02-20-2012, 01:49 PM
Low risk possible medium reward? Or just Manny fading further away. Either way, I'd take Manny over Fukudome as a reserve

So you'd take:

the old as dirt player who can't play defense (and has no desire to) and is basically now a HR-or-nothing hitter who has tested positive for banned substances and has already had a disastrous tenure with the White Sox

over:

a not-as-old player who can play every outfield position and is proven to be a great pinch-hitter and can hit relatively well for only 500K more?

Yeah, makes sense to me. :upsidehead:

soltrain21
02-20-2012, 01:50 PM
Low risk possible medium reward? Or just Manny fading further away. Either way, I'd take Manny over Fukudome as a reserve


His 2010 was pretty ****ing awesome for us, wasn't it?

SephClone89
02-20-2012, 03:32 PM
Low risk possible medium reward? Or just Manny fading further away. Either way, I'd take Manny over Fukudome as a reserve

lolwut

Lip Man 1
02-20-2012, 03:34 PM
The A's are becomming a laughingstock...so much for that "genius" G.M. eh?

Lip

SephClone89
02-20-2012, 03:37 PM
The A's are becomming a laughingstock...so much for that "genius" G.M. eh?

Lip

By all accounts he's gotten some good pieces back in these deals this offseason.

But you can go ahead and needlessly rip on Billy Beane anyway, if you want.

Boondock Saint
02-20-2012, 04:59 PM
By all accounts he's gotten some good pieces back in these deals this offseason.

But you can go ahead and needlessly rip on Billy Beane anyway, if you want.

It's far from needless. He sucks at his job.

Lip Man 1
02-20-2012, 05:06 PM
Seph:

And he'll trade those good young players / draft picks for MORE draft picks in two years right?

I mean that's what he's been doing for the past three or four years correct? Am I making that up?

It appears to be a never ending cycle with him in this regard. How is that "building" for the future?

He augments that with signing a bunch of vets that he can trade at the deadline for draft picks / young players then he unloades those guys as well in two years.

Frankly I can't figure out what the hell he's doing or trying to accomplish.

Lip

ChiSoxFann
02-20-2012, 05:42 PM
I would like to see Beane work for a team that can actually provide him a budget to keep some of those guys. My guess is he knows he can only hold on to his few young, good players so long so he has to keep trading them once they start producing for the A's. If he was ever given the resources I'm sure he could build consistent winners again, but that'll be tough in the west with Anaheim and Texas.

DSpivack
02-20-2012, 05:54 PM
I would like to see Beane work for a team that can actually provide him a budget to keep some of those guys. My guess is he knows he can only hold on to his few young, good players so long so he has to keep trading them once they start producing for the A's. If he was ever given the resources I'm sure he could build consistent winners again, but that'll be tough in the west with Anaheim and Texas.

Then why trade away guys such as Andre Ethier or Carlos Gonzalez before they're even successful?

Sorry, I'm with Lip re: Beane. There are GMs who have been more successful with limited payrolls than Beane. I think Beane got lucky in inheriting the Big 3 of Mulder, Hudson, Zito, and hasn't done anything since their departure.

gobears1987
02-20-2012, 06:36 PM
Then why trade away guys such as Andre Ethier or Carlos Gonzalez before they're even successful?

Sorry, I'm with Lip re: Beane. There are GMs who have been more successful with limited payrolls than Beane. I think Beane got lucky in inheriting the Big 3 of Mulder, Hudson, Zito, and hasn't done anything since their departure.

This is all that has to be said about Beane. Without Mulder, Hudson, and Zito, people would be asking themselves "who the **** is Billy Beane?"

Fenway
02-20-2012, 07:23 PM
I would like to see Beane work for a team that can actually provide him a budget to keep some of those guys. My guess is he knows he can only hold on to his few young, good players so long so he has to keep trading them once they start producing for the A's. If he was ever given the resources I'm sure he could build consistent winners again, but that'll be tough in the west with Anaheim and Texas.

He was Boston's GM for a day in 2003 and then decided he wanted to stay in California. The Red Sox then took a chance with Theo.

Would Beane have won in Boston? Would he have fired Grady Little and brought his own guy in given that Little ignored stats? Would he have gone all out for Curt Schilling? Would he have landed A-Rod or traded Nomar?

It is becoming more apparent here that Boston ownership was delighted to see Theo leave after close to $500 M in questionable contracts.

I think Beane's biggest problem in Oakland is convincing anybody to play in that dump. You have no idea how bad the coliseum is until you actually go to a game there.

Frater Perdurabo
02-20-2012, 07:49 PM
I think Beane's biggest problem in Oakland is convincing anybody to play in that dump. You have no idea how bad the coliseum is until you actually go to a game there.

Was it that bad before Mt. Davis?

TDog
02-20-2012, 07:58 PM
Then why trade away guys such as Andre Ethier or Carlos Gonzalez before they're even successful?

Sorry, I'm with Lip re: Beane. There are GMs who have been more successful with limited payrolls than Beane. I think Beane got lucky in inheriting the Big 3 of Mulder, Hudson, Zito, and hasn't done anything since their departure.

I agree. The young talent Beane has given up is better than the young talent he has. And the young talent wasn't traded away because of money. Gonzalez was making the minimum and wasn't close to being arbitration eligible when he was part of a deal to get Matt Holliday, and Ethier was still in the minors when he was dealt for Milton Bradley.

Billy Beane's mismanagement of the A's roster has at least as much to do with the low attendance as their home field does.

Fenway
02-20-2012, 08:04 PM
Was it that bad before Mt. Davis?

It was better before Mt.Davis as you had the backdrop of the Oakland hills.

Also before Mt. Davis, the Giants were still at Candlestick which was not a good ballpark and made worse by 49ers expansion.

Then the Giants opened one of the nicest parks in MLB.

Nellie_Fox
02-20-2012, 11:52 PM
Seph:

And he'll trade those good young players / draft picks for MORE draft picks in two years right?

I mean that's what he's been doing for the past three or four years correct? Am I making that up?

It appears to be a never ending cycle with him in this regard. How is that "building" for the future?

He augments that with signing a bunch of vets that he can trade at the deadline for draft picks / young players then he unloades those guys as well in two years.

Frankly I can't figure out what the hell he's doing or trying to accomplish.

LipThere are many WSI posters who favor this approach. I can't count the number of times people have called for trading young players "while you can get something for them."

Daver
02-20-2012, 11:58 PM
There are many WSI posters who favor this approach. I can't count the number of times people have called for trading young players "while you can get something for them."

Being as the White Sox develop players like my ass chews gum, they may be on to something.

doublem23
02-21-2012, 12:14 AM
Low risk possible medium reward? Or just Manny fading further away. Either way, I'd take Manny over Fukudome as a reserve

LOL, your what hurts?

How many DH's does one team need?

doublem23
02-21-2012, 12:18 AM
By all accounts he's gotten some good pieces back in these deals this offseason.

But you can go ahead and needlessly rip on Billy Beane anyway, if you want.

Uh, the A's have won 80+ games once in the past 5 seasons (when they won 81), and has been noted, the two best players they've had in that timespan, Carlos Gonzalez and Andre Either, they traded away for basically nothing.

I don't see how anyone can defend the job he's been doing, I don't care what kind of payroll problems they have. Guy got lucky with Hudson, Mulder, and Zito. But they can't seem to win anything unless they have the best 3 pitchers in the league.

Fenway
02-22-2012, 01:14 PM
Terry Francona said this about Manny in 2008

“Manny Ramirez is the worst human being I’ve ever met.”

ON BASEBALL
Quitters Never Win. Well, Almost Never. (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/sports/baseball/manny-ramirez-defies-the-saying-that-quitters-never-win.html?_r=2&ref=sports)

Broccoli Rob
02-22-2012, 01:32 PM
Uh, the A's have won 80+ games once in the past 5 seasons (when they won 81), and has been noted, the two best players they've had in that timespan, Carlos Gonzalez and Andre Either, they traded away for basically nothing.

I don't see how anyone can defend the job he's been doing, I don't care what kind of payroll problems they have. Guy got lucky with Hudson, Mulder, and Zito. But they can't seem to win anything unless they have the best 3 pitchers in the league.

And nine times in the past 13 seasons, kinda like our Sox. 'Course the White Sox got that lucky--and moreso in 2005--in that time span, too.

But really, is winning 80 games an accomplishment? If not, who cares.

doublem23
02-22-2012, 01:36 PM
And nine times in the past 13 seasons, kinda like our Sox. 'Course the White Sox got that lucky--and moreso in 2005--in that time span, too.

But really, is winning 80 games an accomplishment? If not, who cares.

Oh, please, the White Sox were legitimately the best team in the league in 2005, something that can never be said about Billy Beane's A's. And yes, I fully acknowlegde Beane and the A's had a nice run... When he happened to have lucked into having the 3 best SP in the league on his team all at the same time. Handicap the guy with having to build his team like almost every other GM in baseball does, and suddenly he's not a genius but actually, pretty awful at his job.

Fenway
02-22-2012, 01:41 PM
Oakland SHOULD of won the pennant in 2001 but Jeter did this

jwMnT3jkbEE


In 2003 they should have swept Boston in the ALDS but made some baserunning blunders that cost them Game 3 and Boston came back to win the series.

CLUBHOUSE KID
02-22-2012, 02:01 PM
Oakland SHOULD of won the pennant in 1981 but Jeter did this

jwMnT3jkbEE


In 2003 they should have swept Boston in the ALDS but made some baserunning blunders that cost them Game 3 and Boston came back to win the series.

That play was from 2001 not 1981.

Fenway
02-22-2012, 02:26 PM
That play was from 2001 not 1981.

Of course it was 2001 - I have no idea where 1981 came from :tongue:

asindc
02-22-2012, 03:03 PM
And nine times in the past 13 seasons, kinda like our Sox. 'Course the White Sox got that lucky--and moreso in 2005--in that time span, too.

But really, is winning 80 games an accomplishment? If not, who cares.

Lucky my ass. :dtroll:

CLUBHOUSE KID
02-22-2012, 04:58 PM
Of course it was 2001 - I have no idea where 1981 came from :tongue:

lol I was making sure I was sure of myself :D:

Lip Man 1
02-23-2012, 02:07 AM
Fenway:

"Should of" means nothing, what matters is what actually happened. And the A's did ****.

Lip

SephClone89
02-23-2012, 04:48 AM
Fenway:

"Should of" means nothing, what matters is what actually happened. And the A's did ****.

Lip

This is literally true.
:tongue:

Broccoli Rob
02-24-2012, 12:23 PM
Lucky my ass. :dtroll:

Every accomplishment involves luck and pieces falling together in the same time span. :dtroll::dtroll: