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#1swisher
01-25-2012, 05:16 PM
MDGonzales

Ventura tells the Danny Mac show that the closer job is open but
right now Thornton would be the guy.

RV echos KW's sentiment that De Aza will open ST as the Sox's
leadoff man.


Ventura joined the Carmen, Jurko & Harry show/ESPN

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/chicago/play?id=7503590

MtGrnwdSoxFan
01-25-2012, 05:19 PM
MDGonzales

Ventura tells the Danny Mac show that the closer job is open but
right now Thornton would be the guy.

:chunks:

Is there something in the clubhouse water that makes our managers think that Thornton can close? He's proved time and time and time again that he cannot do it.

RV echos KW's sentiment that De Aza will open ST as the Sox's leadoff man.

He deserves at least a shot...so I can get behind this one.

gobears1987
01-25-2012, 05:21 PM
Thornton as closer!?!?! :thud:

I like Thornton, but some pitchers just aren't meant to be closers.

What else can you expect when Kenny hires a manager with 0 experience in any kind of coaching? Great hire Kenny.

soltrain21
01-25-2012, 05:33 PM
Thornton as closer!?!?! :thud:

I like Thornton, but some pitchers just aren't meant to be closers.

What else can you expect when Kenny hires a manager with 0 experience in any kind of coaching? Great hire Kenny.

I'm guessing any manager would say, right now, Thornton is the leader to close.

gobears1987
01-25-2012, 05:35 PM
I'm guessing any manager would say, right now, Thornton is the leader to close.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t154/Skanberg/4-15-11Mascot.jpg?t=1302879030

Frontman
01-25-2012, 05:35 PM
Am I just not that reactionary anymore to get that upset that, as the roster is currently situated; that Thorton would be the only candidate to consider for the job?

Relax everyone, the Sox don't break camp for nearly two months. I'll worry about the closer then. Ventura just commented on what he has RIGHT NOW.

SephClone89
01-25-2012, 05:36 PM
Am I just not that reactionary anymore to get that upset that, as the roster is currently situated; that Thorton would be the only candidate to consider for the job?

Relax everyone, the Sox don't break camp for nearly two months. I'll worry about the closer then. Ventura just commented on what he has RIGHT NOW.

Addison Reed is a top closer candidate in all of baseball.

DirtySox
01-25-2012, 05:38 PM
I'm guessing any manager would say, right now, Thornton is the leader to close.

Yep. I'm okay with it. Let Thornton handle it good or bad while Reed gains some MLB experience. He can inherit the role later on or as needed.

PaleHoser
01-25-2012, 05:43 PM
No knock against Matt Thornton, but I think historically left-handed closers haven't been very successful. I'm racking my brain but can only come up with a few that have had some success - Randy Myers, Norm Charlton, Dan Plesac, Eddie Guardado, George Sherrill in the last 20 years or so.

My money's on Jesse Crain closing by Memorial Day.

Frontman
01-25-2012, 05:43 PM
Yep. I'm okay with it. Let Thornton handle it good or bad while Reed gains some MLB experience. He can inherit the role later on or as needed.

Exactly. Reed has the ability to become a great closer; but to throw him into the role without much MLB batter experience? Too risky to ruin that talent. Let the kid do some inning eating/set up work; then get him ready.

LITTLE NELL
01-25-2012, 07:20 PM
Ventura says Thorton is the guy right now.
That did not work out too well last year.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0126-bits-white-sox-chicago--20120126,0,2584234.story


Mods: Please move, just noticed there was another thread.

Brian26
01-25-2012, 07:26 PM
It's Thornton, too.

Brian26
01-25-2012, 07:27 PM
I'm guessing any manager would say, right now, Thornton is the leader to close.

Correct. Lots of drama in this thread.

all*star quentin
01-25-2012, 09:18 PM
Thornton was mentioning that it was freezing in April and it was difficult to pitch when it's that cold. Can we get him a hand warmer like the NFL QBs use?:redneck

We Treat'em
01-25-2012, 09:25 PM
Ventura says Thorton is the guy right now.
That did not work out too well last year.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0126-bits-white-sox-chicago--20120126,0,2584234.story


Mods: Please move, just noticed there was another thread.


That's just sad

DumpJerry
01-25-2012, 09:40 PM
I'm sure Coop was consulted. One check of the roster shows that Juan Pierre is not available to be in Left Field. Should be ok.

DirtySox
01-25-2012, 09:49 PM
One check of the roster shows that Juan Pierre is not available to be in Left Field. Should be ok.

Nice.

slavko
01-25-2012, 10:25 PM
Not to worry, Ventura is smart enough not to put pressure on Reed this early or to insult Thornton. Thornton can't close. 90% of us see it. The balls that Pierre butchered last year will be hitting Dayan in the head this year.

Lefty closers:How about two the Cubbies traded away that went on to great success. Bill Henry and Ron Perranoski.

Tragg
01-25-2012, 10:45 PM
The balls that Pierre butchered last year will be hitting Dayan in the head this year.


I hope it's not true, but that's funny as hell.

RCWHITESOX
01-25-2012, 10:50 PM
Thornton as closer!?!?! :thud:

I like Thornton, but some pitchers just aren't meant to be closers.

What else can you expect when Kenny hires a manager with 0 experience in any kind of coaching? Great hire Kenny.

You are absolutely right; every time they have tried it it hasn't worked. I hope they realize that or the season could be a disaster sooner than later

Ron Karkovice
01-25-2012, 11:00 PM
Fire robin!!!!!

Nellie_Fox
01-26-2012, 12:23 AM
No knock against Matt Thornton, but I think historically left-handed closers haven't been very successful. I'm racking my brain but can only come up with a few that have had some success - Randy Myers, Norm Charlton, Dan Plesac, Eddie Guardado, George Sherrill in the last 20 years or so.
Tug McGraw.

DSpivack
01-26-2012, 12:31 AM
Tug McGraw.

I first thought of Billy Wagner.

John Franco is another one.

gobears1987
01-26-2012, 05:17 AM
Not only should lefties not be used as closers, but pitchers who throw only fastballs shouldn't close unless their name is Mariano Rivera. This is going to be a disaster. Thornton is a very good set-up men, but put him next to Damaso Marte and the dozens of other good set-up men who just don't have what it takes to close.

October26
01-26-2012, 05:39 AM
No knock against Matt Thornton, but I think historically left-handed closers haven't been very successful. I'm racking my brain but can only come up with a few that have had some success - Randy Myers, Norm Charlton, Dan Plesac, Eddie Guardado, George Sherrill in the last 20 years or so.

My money's on Jesse Crain closing by Memorial Day.

Good call on Crain becoming the closer later this year. Makes sense. Crain was recently on White Sox Weekly where he expressed an interest in being the Sox closer in 2012.

doublem23
01-26-2012, 06:18 AM
I'm really not opposed to the move right now given that Juan Pierre's not out in left field to drop routine fly balls any more.

gobears1987
01-26-2012, 06:25 AM
I'm really not opposed to the move right now given that Juan Pierre's not out in left field to drop routine fly balls any more.

Dayan Viciedo is an improvement?

SCCWS
01-26-2012, 07:12 AM
Dayan Viciedo is an improvement?

In a way. He won't even get to the ball to drop it.

hawkjt
01-26-2012, 07:25 AM
In the Danny Mac interview, Mac couched the question with the caveat that it was Jan 25 and it is almost 10 weeks until the decision will be made,and they all laughed....kind of a joke question at this point.

Robin said if he had name someone right now it might be Matt but mentioned that Reed is a possibility with a big camp.

It was so hypothetical, it sounded a bit like Robin was just throwing out a bone to Matt as sign of respect as the the most vet pitcher out there.

Nothing to get excited about yet. Btw, I am not a fan of Thornton closing,so I am counting on this to not end up happening.

doublem23
01-26-2012, 08:13 AM
Dayan Viciedo is an improvement?

If he can catch... Yes.

Nellie_Fox
01-26-2012, 11:14 AM
If he can catch... Yes.You can't be serious in thinking that Viciedo will be a defensive improvement over Pierre. You just can't.

beasly213
01-26-2012, 12:09 PM
I know it's early and Robin might end up being a disaster as a manager but for right now I'm enjoying listening to him every time he talks. It's nice not to have to worry about some stupid twitter spat with our managers kids and the players on our team, or have to listen to our manager say "This team is horse **** now.. if you want to fire me go head I don't care." etc.

For now the Sox have a professional at the front of the organization and it's refreshing.

Daver
01-26-2012, 12:14 PM
If he can catch... Yes.

This made me laugh.

Foulke You
01-26-2012, 01:03 PM
Good call on Crain becoming the closer later this year. Makes sense. Crain was recently on White Sox Weekly where he expressed an interest in being the Sox closer in 2012.
I'm sticking with my original prediction that Crain will break camp as the closer. It makes the most sense. He is a right hander, throws hard, has three pitches, lots of experience, and has the best pickoff move in that bullpen. Thornton and Reed can setup. Ohman, Santiago, Zach Stewart, or perhaps a young newcomer like Simon Castro can fill in at middle relief.

doublem23
01-26-2012, 01:16 PM
You can't be serious in thinking that Viciedo will be a defensive improvement over Pierre. You just can't.

Probably not, but it's not like Pierre was any kind of defensive star. Any ways, it's left field, who cares? The Sox won the World Series with Scott Podsednik in LF so obviously defensive prowess in your LF is not a requirement to win.

Nellie_Fox
01-26-2012, 01:21 PM
Probably not, but it's not like Pierre was any kind of defensive star. Any ways, it's left field, who cares? The Sox won the World Series with Scott Podsednik in LF so obviously defensive prowess in your LF is not a requirement to win.Pierre had that one run of dropping balls. Other than that, he had the speed to get to balls that Viciedo won't be within twenty feet of when they hit the ground, and he caught them when he got there. When he's futilely chasing bouncing balls around the outfield, tell me again that it doesn't matter. Pierre had a terrible throwing arm, but you have to get to the ball before that matters.

doublem23
01-26-2012, 01:26 PM
Pierre had that one run of dropping balls. Other than that, he had the speed to get to balls that Viciedo won't be within twenty feet of when they hit the ground, and he caught them when he got there. When he's futilely chasing bouncing balls around the outfield, tell me again that it doesn't matter. Pierre had a terrible throwing arm, but you have to get to the ball before that matters.

Pierre sucked. For all his speed he still had no range. FWIW, in 21 games in the OF, Viciedo racked up a higher dWAR than Pierre did in a season's worth of garbage in LF. I have no reservations that Dayan will likely be a below average fielder who will probably have to move to 1B or DH in another few years, but if the kid can hit even remotely like he is capable of Dayan's bat + Dayan's glove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan's "bat" + Juan's glove

Nellie_Fox
01-26-2012, 01:28 PM
Pierre sucked. For all his speed he still had no range. FWIW, in 21 games in the OF, Viciedo racked up a higher dWAR than Pierre did in a season's worth of garbage in LF. I have no reservations that Dayan will likely be a below average fielder who will probably have to move to 1B or DH in another few years, but if the kid can hit even remotely like he is capable of Dayan's bat + Dayan's glove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan's "bat" + Juan's gloveI know nothing about dWAR. How do they factor in not getting to a ball that someone else would have gotten to?

doublem23
01-26-2012, 01:50 PM
I know nothing about dWAR. How do they factor in not getting to a ball that someone else would have gotten to?

dWAR does take range factors into account. It's not a great stat, but then again, there are few good defensive stats. Either way, we're talking about replacing Juan Pierre here, not Ichiro. Dayan is here to hit, that's what's going to make or break his season. If he can hit anything like he did in Charlotte last season (.296/.364/.491) I think we'll be all right with the occasional fly ball he can't get to.

The Sawx won with Manny in LF, the Cardinals won with Holliday in LF, it's a hitter's position.

102605
01-26-2012, 01:58 PM
No knock against Matt Thornton, but I think historically left-handed closers haven't been very successful. I'm racking my brain but can only come up with a few that have had some success - Randy Myers, Norm Charlton, Dan Plesac, Eddie Guardado, George Sherrill in the last 20 years or so.

My money's on Jesse Crain closing by Memorial Day.


Billy Wagner??

Nellie_Fox
01-26-2012, 03:50 PM
dWAR does take range factors into account. It's not a great stat, but then again, there are few good defensive stats. Either way, we're talking about replacing Juan Pierre here, not Ichiro. Dayan is here to hit, that's what's going to make or break his season. If he can hit anything like he did in Charlotte last season (.296/.364/.491) I think we'll be all right with the occasional fly ball he can't get to.

The Sawx won with Manny in LF, the Cardinals won with Holliday in LF, it's a hitter's position.
I keep seeing Kenny saying Viciedo is penciled in to right field.

Domeshot17
01-26-2012, 03:53 PM
It isn't like we will have that many leads to protect late anyway. I like this approach. In a perfect world, you build up Matt's value as a closer and hope he dominates early, you trade him for a crap ton at the deadline if he succeeds, and let Reed get his feet wet before he caves to the pressure of closing as a rookie.

dickallen15
01-26-2012, 06:55 PM
Tug McGraw.
Billy Wagner, Sparky Lyle. I don't care what hand he throws with if he can get people out and if people want KW to get something other than salary relief for Thornton, letting him close is the way to go.

mahagga73
02-05-2012, 12:04 PM
Mc Neil is the worst radio jock in Chicago.He claims to be a Sox fan,never goes to the games,and constantly bitches about the team.Why any of them give him the time of day is a mystery to me.

TomBradley72
02-05-2012, 10:54 PM
I know it's early and Robin might end up being a disaster as a manager but for right now I'm enjoying listening to him every time he talks. It's nice not to have to worry about some stupid twitter spat with our managers kids and the players on our team, or have to listen to our manager say "This team is horse **** now.. if you want to fire me go head I don't care." etc.

For now the Sox have a professional at the front of the organization and it's refreshing.

+1

I heard a clip where he said something like "This winter is different for me- because I'm preparing for a baseball season- which is a good thing- because that's what I'm good at" (paraphrasing). I loved it- he sounds quietly confident to me- I believe he'll have very good control of the clubhouse and overall attitude of the team- with no b.s. drama.

I think Robin is one of most respected players of my lifetime- there are very few major leaguers and even fewer White Sox who I recall being so universally respected- players, management, executives, media, fans- I've never heard a single bad word about him-

SoxSpeed22
02-05-2012, 11:35 PM
I don't think Viciedo will be in at the end of the game if they're playing with a lead. I don't even remember who's in our outfield. De Aza will probably play center and Viciedo will probably play right.
Back to Ventura, he at least understands baseball and is willing to teach players. The thing I'm most worried about with him is how he handles the bullpen. Ozzie's managing last season was almost Bevington caliber bad. I think Ventura will at least do more for the team.

DonnieDarko
02-06-2012, 09:06 AM
I see Viciedo playing LF, actually, instead of RF.

russ99
02-06-2012, 09:22 AM
Pierre sucked. For all his speed he still had no range. FWIW, in 21 games in the OF, Viciedo racked up a higher dWAR than Pierre did in a season's worth of garbage in LF. I have no reservations that Dayan will likely be a below average fielder who will probably have to move to 1B or DH in another few years, but if the kid can hit even remotely like he is capable of Dayan's bat + Dayan's glove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan's "bat" + Juan's glove

One month of Viciedo in the field will make us all fondly remember Pierre's "poor" fielding...

To compare their bats is ludicrous. Two totally different types of hitters. Unless DeAza somehow can somehow get on base and steal at a much larger rate than previously (along with not regressing from his career high average), we'll miss Juan at the plate too. For all his faults, he was a pretty good table-setter. He was better in 2010 than 2011, though.

KMcMahon817
02-06-2012, 11:41 AM
To compare their bats is ludicrous. Two totally different types of hitters. Unless DeAza somehow can somehow get on base and steal at a much larger rate than previously (along with not regressing from his career high average), we'll miss Juan at the plate too. For all his faults, he was a pretty good table-setter. He was better in 2010 than 2011, though.

This cracked me up, but I do agree. I liked Juan..he worked his butt off and turned a god awful season into a mediocre one. I do think we'll miss his hustle and ability to cause some problems on the base paths. With that said, De Aza is clearly the better option moving into 2012.

SI1020
02-06-2012, 01:25 PM
I know nothing about dWAR. How do they factor in not getting to a ball that someone else would have gotten to? They way they calculate the new stats is sometimes shrouded in mystery similar I think to the machinations of Middle Age alchemists. However despite being an OF I try to keep as up to date as possible. I've been interested in the defensive aspects of baseball since childhood, the White Sox excelling on defense in the go go era. In case you are interested here are the all time and active leaders in DWAR.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_def_career.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_def_active.shtml

I try to take into consideration not just the total but the number of games played in a given career. So take a look if you like and decide for yourself.

russ99
02-06-2012, 01:51 PM
This cracked me up, but I do agree. I liked Juan..he worked his butt off and turned a god awful season into a mediocre one. I do think we'll miss his hustle and ability to cause some problems on the base paths. With that said, De Aza is clearly the better option moving into 2012.

I do agree, it's time to see what De Aza can do, but he only has 388 PA's in the majors, so what we saw last year may not be what we'll see over a full season. His winter league numbers are worrisome too. Linky (http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/whitesox-talk/post/De-Aza-wraps-up-Dominican-Winter-League-?blockID=626166).

I don't want a repeat of Jerry Owens, but De Aza is surely a better fielder.

Noneck
02-06-2012, 02:14 PM
I see everyone is only bringing up De Aza and Viciedio as corner ofers. Viciedio has not found a position that he can play and playing rf is not the place to just stick him. If he can prove that he can hit, his only place to play should be lf and if people complain about Pierre just wait till you see the show Viciedo will put on out there. The wild card in the OF this year is Lillibridge, he really hasnt played much of RF in his career but at least he seems to have a clue what to do out there.

Foulke You
02-06-2012, 02:17 PM
I do agree, it's time to see what De Aza can do, but he only has 388 PA's in the majors, so what we saw last year may not be what we'll see over a full season. His winter league numbers are worrisome too. Linky (http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/whitesox-talk/post/De-Aza-wraps-up-Dominican-Winter-League-?blockID=626166).

I don't want a repeat of Jerry Owens, but De Aza is surely a better fielder.
If De Aza does what he did in the couple months he was here, it will be a definite improvement over Pierre. Juan was strictly a one dimensional slap/bunt hitter who provided no power and last year he featured declining speed. De Aza has younger legs and showed during his time here that he can do everything Pierre can do on offense but also doubles, triples, and the occasional HR which we could never get out of Pierre. It would be nice to finally have a leadoff hitter again who can slug higher than .326. In 54 games last year, De Aza slugged .520. As you pointed out, he will also give us better defense in the outfield. Don't get me wrong, I appreciated what Pierre gave us in 2010 and half of 2011, but it was definitely time to move on from him as our leadoff man. Too many times Pierre came up with RISP and simply didn't have the power to drive anyone home. Outfielders would camp out shallow in the corners so even if he did get a hit, the runner would have to stop at 3B. In the American League, it is nice to have a leadoff guy who can clear the bases with a double or occasional HR and not just be a pesky slap hitter who steals bases. Too early to say whether De Aza is a long term solution at leadoff but he played well enough in the last two months to deserve an extended look in 2012.

Jurr
02-14-2012, 08:57 PM
I remember not too long ago when we ached for a 100 million dollar payroll.

This has happened, and I have never been so uneasy about a roster.
Viciedo as a full time outfielder? De Aza every day?

Man, oh, man. I guess we'll just have to see.