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View Full Version : Tom Yawkey - Fenway must be replaced or I will move team (1967)


Fenway
01-24-2012, 10:56 PM
Imagine if there was no Red Sox :o::?:

Yawkey Will Move Red Sox - Boston Globe - June 1967 (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BwBn6a6z3HOJMGY2OGFiMjctNTlhNi00ZmQzLTk4ZjM tNzc5YWExNWNhZTc5&hl=en_US)

MUsoxfan
01-24-2012, 11:00 PM
It's easy if you try....
:tongue:

WhiteSox5187
01-24-2012, 11:00 PM
Imagine if there was no Red Sox :o::?:

Yawkey Will Move Red Sox - Boston Globe - June 1967 (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BwBn6a6z3HOJMGY2OGFiMjctNTlhNi00ZmQzLTk4ZjM tNzc5YWExNWNhZTc5&hl=en_US)

No Red Sox? Ohh, how happy I would be!

tstrike2000
01-24-2012, 11:08 PM
The world would've been that much better of a place. :smile:

DumpJerry
01-24-2012, 11:11 PM
What would Cub fans have done without the Red Sox?

Fenway
01-24-2012, 11:12 PM
Then the Red Sox won the pennant and you know the rest...

Harry Caray really sounded bored doing this voiceover

ePwVXRBYIMY

Brian26
01-24-2012, 11:39 PM
I'm reading a biography on Hank Aaron right now, "The Last Hero." There's some good discussion about the Boston Braves before they moved to Milwaukee. Boston was a two-team town for half a century, but the Red Sox ultimately drove the Braves out of business.

Fenway
01-24-2012, 11:51 PM
I'm reading a biography on Hank Aaron right now, "The Last Hero." There's some good discussion about the Boston Braves before they moved to Milwaukee. Boston was a two-team town for half a century, but the Red Sox ultimately drove the Braves out of business.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GvFEduhv030/TNGrLU5ZplI/AAAAAAAAAQA/d2hW7JN7T6o/s400/braves.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GvFEduhv030/TNGrVLI2K0I/AAAAAAAAAQI/oGi8BbkuLik/s400/braves1.jpg

ComiskeyBrewer
01-25-2012, 11:51 AM
Imagine if there was no Red Sox :o::?:

Yawkey Will Move Red Sox - Boston Globe - June 1967 (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BwBn6a6z3HOJMGY2OGFiMjctNTlhNi00ZmQzLTk4ZjM tNzc5YWExNWNhZTc5&hl=en_US)


They'd probably still exist, just not in Boston. How does the name The Montreal Red Sox, or Milwaukee Red Sox sound? Had he moved i wouldn't be shocked if it was to one of those cities.

Fenway
01-25-2012, 11:57 AM
They'd probably still exist, just not in Boston. How does the name The Montreal Red Sox, or Milwaukee Red Sox sound? Had he moved i wouldn't be shocked if it was to one of those cities.

In 67 Yawkey controlled the Toronto AAA market ( later moved it to Louisville )

Opening Day of 1967 the team drew 8,000 against the White Sox.

ComiskeyBrewer
01-25-2012, 12:08 PM
In 67 Yawkey controlled the Toronto AAA market ( later moved it to Louisville )

Opening Day of 1967 the team drew 8,000 against the White Sox.

WOW. I can't visualize fenway that empty.


So the Toronto Red Sox might have been a reality?

Daver
01-25-2012, 12:27 PM
And 45 years later they are still polishing that turd.

LITTLE NELL
01-25-2012, 06:35 PM
I remember the 67 Series and Curt Gowdy could not say enough good things about Fenway, he was gushing about it like a little kid. I wonder how Yawkey felt about that.

Brian26
01-25-2012, 08:34 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GvFEduhv030/TNGrLU5ZplI/AAAAAAAAAQA/d2hW7JN7T6o/s400/braves.jpg



Its just coincidental that the chapter I'm reading in this book is talking about this right now.

Back in the late 40's, everyone thought that the Braves would run the Red Sox out of town. The Braves owner, Lou Perini, was a Bostonian, while Yawkey was the out-of-towner that everyone thought was a carpet-bagger. Perini was a baseball visionary and understood the importance of televising home games, while Yawkey refused to put the Red Sox home games on tv.

The Braves won the pennant in '48 but ran into a few years of bad luck after that, and their fanbase totally eroded. Perini was losing money hand over foot and was basically forced to move to Milwaukee (and beat Veeck to the punch, as the Browns had to settle for 2nd place in moving to Baltimore), but if the Braves could have just hung on for a few more seasons, they had Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron coming up at the same time in '52/'53. Along with still having Spahn, they finished in 2nd place with over 90 wins in their year in Milwaukee in '53.

If they could have held on, they may have owned Boston.

Fenway
01-25-2012, 08:51 PM
Its just coincidental that the chapter I'm reading in this book is talking about this right now.

Back in the late 40's, everyone thought that the Braves would run the Red Sox out of town. The Braves owner, Lou Perini, was a Bostonian, while Yawkey was the out-of-towner that everyone thought was a carpet-bagger. Perini was a baseball visionary and understood the importance of televising home games, while Yawkey refused to put the Red Sox home games on tv.

The Braves won the pennant in '48 but ran into a few years of bad luck after that, and their fanbase totally eroded. Perini was losing money hand over foot and was basically forced to move to Milwaukee (and beat Veeck to the punch, as the Browns had to settle for 2nd place in moving to Baltimore), but if the Braves could have just hung on for a few more seasons, they had Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron coming up at the same time in '52/'53. Along with still having Spahn, they finished in 2nd place with over 90 wins in their year in Milwaukee in '53.

If they could have held on, they may have owned Boston.

Not totally accurate. The Braves did have more home night games televised in the late 40's and 50's because they were on Channel 7 which was owned by RKO General and cherrypicked between CBS, Dumont and shows fed by sister station WOR in NY) - Red Sox were on Channel 4 owned by Westinghouse which had signed a deal with NBC promising all prime time shows coming from WNBC would be shown in Boston. CBS was trying to get Channel 5 when the FCC froze licenses for a few years. They even built studios for WEEI-TV which was never built)

The real PR brain behind the Braves was a super salesman by the name of Billy Sullivan who would later start the Patriots.

Yawkey did allow weekday and weekend home games to be shown.

Both teams only did home radio and used the same announcer Jim Britt. Yawkey around 1950 then decided to do live road games and offered the job to Britt who decided the Braves had a better future so Yawkey asked Mel Allen who would be the best announcer and Mel recommended a young man who would fill in for Allen on radio when Mel did TV - his name was Curt Gowdy.

Britt never recovered from the Braves leaving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Britt

Fenway
01-25-2012, 08:57 PM
There is an ugly side to the Braves leaving and in talking to older family members there seems to be something to it. The Braves fanbase did not accept integration and attendance just vanished.

Yawkey was convinced that black players had driven the Braves out and that is one of the reasons he was the last to integrate. It is a sad reminder of what Boston was like into the late 70's.

Southsider101
01-25-2012, 09:52 PM
Yawkey's problem wasn't only the ballpark. People forget that the Red Sox were simply a bad team through most of the 1960s. While they won the pennant in 1967, they never finished higher than sixth place in the AL in the years prior to that.

1960: 7th
1961: 6th
1962: 8th
1963: 7th
1964: 8th
1965: 9th
1966: 9th


Lets remember that the aura of Fenway park as a "classic" ballpark did not exist at that time. For many people it was looked upon as just another old, decaying inner city ballpark much like others built during the same period; think Crosley, Forbes, and Wrigley.

Fenway
01-25-2012, 10:04 PM
Fenway started to to gain classic status during the 75 World Series when people started to think that the new cookie cutter parks were a big mistake.

Old Comiskey was looked that way in 83 as well with the ASG.


Yawkey's problem wasn't only the ballpark. People forget that the Red Sox were simply a bad team though most of the 1960s. While they won the pennant in 1967, they never finished higher than sixth place in the AL in the years prior to that.

1960: 7th
1961: 6th
1962: 8th
1963: 7th
1964: 8th
1965: 9th
1966: 9th


Lets remember that the aura of Fenway park as a "classic" ballpark did not exist at that time. For many people it was looked upon as just another old, decaying inner city ballpark much like others built during the same period; think Crosley, Forbes, Wrigley and Fields.

BigKlu59
01-26-2012, 05:48 PM
Fenway...Your beloved NESN is running a program on the old ball yard. It brings up the thoughts of a newer stadium next door to Fenway, but the fans starting the crusade to keep the the " Monument to Baseball" where it stood. Of course it did hinge on them winning in 67... Nice program. Talks about the improvements over the years and original layout and dirt hill in left field, I cant recall its moniker. Also about the fires to parts of the shrine in the 30's, and of the lack of care some of the prior owners had in hand with the upkeep. I wish there would have been a way to save Old Comiskey. Those old Catherdrals of Baseball were meant to last forever with the then steel, brick and mortar construction.

BK59

downstairs
01-26-2012, 05:58 PM
They'd have moved or expanded a team to Boston soon thereafter.

Railsplitter
01-26-2012, 08:20 PM
They'd have moved or expanded a team to Boston soon thereafter.I'm not so sure. Look how long Washington waited. And Louisville never go back to the bigs after the National League contracted in 1899.

Johnny Mostil
01-26-2012, 09:48 PM
Harry Caray really sounded bored doing this voiceover



That was an interesting catch by Brock.

WOW. I can't visualize fenway that empty.



I was surprised to read it was that low. But this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1967-schedule-scores.shtml) tells me the next day attendance was only 3,607. And the next week the two Sox teams played a game in Chicago that drew 1,313.

TommyJohn
01-26-2012, 11:28 PM
That was an interesting catch by Brock.



I was surprised to read it was that low. But this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1967-schedule-scores.shtml) tells me the next day attendance was only 3,607. And the next week the two Sox teams played a game in Chicago that drew 1,313.

Sad, but true. While the pennant race in Boston charged up everyone and they began packing Fenway, the White Sox did not even draw 1 million. Lots of reasons were offered including the reputation of the neighborhood, the dull, pitching-and-defense games the White Sox played, and the Cubs awakening up north after being sucky for 20 years (although the Sox barely outdrew them).

Fenway
01-26-2012, 11:47 PM
Fenway...Your beloved NESN is running a program on the old ball yard. It brings up the thoughts of a newer stadium next door to Fenway, but the fans starting the crusade to keep the the " Monument to Baseball" where it stood. Of course it did hinge on them winning in 67... Nice program. Talks about the improvements over the years and original layout and dirt hill in left field, I cant recall its moniker. Also about the fires to parts of the shrine in the 30's, and of the lack of care some of the prior owners had in hand with the upkeep. I wish there would have been a way to save Old Comiskey. Those old Catherdrals of Baseball were meant to last forever with the then steel, brick and mortar construction.

BK59

This fan group was totally dismissed by John Harrington as a bunch of nuts.

http://www.savefenwaypark.com/main.cfm

After seeing Camden Yards I was actually in the new park camp for awhile but it is amazing what Janet Marie Smith did with the dump. The amazing thing is all the improvements look like they have been there forever.

Johnny Mostil
01-27-2012, 07:42 AM
Sad, but true. While the pennant race in Boston charged up everyone and they began packing Fenway, the White Sox did not even draw 1 million. Lots of reasons were offered including the reputation of the neighborhood, the dull, pitching-and-defense games the White Sox played, and the Cubs awakening up north after being sucky for 20 years (although the Sox barely outdrew them).

I guess what I find more surprising is how attendance expectations have changed over time (even accounting for the fact that attendance then was actual attendance and attendance now is tickets sold?).

The Red Sox drew 1.7 million that year, which, at a quick glance here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/attend.shtml), appears to have been a then-record-setting year for them. Yes, the White Sox drew only 985K, which had been their lowest in nine years, but that was still one of the better years in their history to that point (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/attend.shtml).

Today, of course, either team would consider either of those attendance figures to be disastrous.

Anyway, enough thread-hijack, not to mention the 'a' word, from me . . .

Fenway
01-27-2012, 09:19 AM
What had set Yawkey off was the state killing off a plan to build a new retractable dome downtown. It would have been funded by having dog racing in the arena on nights the Bruins and Celtics were not playing. However the existing dig track (Wonderland) and the Bruins wanted no part of this and were able to kill it.

Billy Sullivan who hatched up the idea said in 1965 that PARKING was the #1 source of revenue for a stadium then.

http://www.stadiumpage.com/mndbos/boston65.jpg



I guess what I find more surprising is how attendance expectations have changed over time (even accounting for the fact that attendance then was actual attendance and attendance now is tickets sold?).

The Red Sox drew 1.7 million that year, which, at a quick glance here (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/attend.shtml), appears to have been a then-record-setting year for them. Yes, the White Sox drew only 985K, which had been their lowest in nine years, but that was still one of the better years in their history to that point (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/attend.shtml).

Today, of course, either team would consider either of those attendance figures to be disastrous.

Anyway, enough thread-hijack, not to mention the 'a' word, from me . . .

Fenway
01-28-2012, 10:00 PM
That was an interesting catch by Brock.



I was surprised to read it was that low. But this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1967-schedule-scores.shtml) tells me the next day attendance was only 3,607. And the next week the two Sox teams played a game in Chicago that drew 1,313.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2012/01/26/scan260__1327589655_9505.jpg

BigKlu59
01-29-2012, 06:10 AM
All those empty seats and nobody seat weasling...Ah, a different time when you sat in your assigned seat..

BK59

Fenway
01-29-2012, 10:08 AM
All those empty seats and nobody seat weasling...Ah, a different time when you sat in your assigned seat..

BK59

Back then an usher got the same respect as a police officer. They would holler "Not below the chain".

Golden Sox
01-29-2012, 11:25 AM
Former White Sox GM Roland Hemond use to work for the Boston Braves. He maintains if the Braves would of played a few more seasons in Boston, with the Braves winning pennants like they did in 56 and 57, they would still be in Boston today.

Fenway
01-29-2012, 11:34 AM
Former White Sox GM Roland Hemond use to work for the Boston Braves. He maintains if the Braves would of played a few more seasons in Boston, with the Braves winning pennants like they did in 56 and 57, they would still be in Boston today.

Yawkey had said the Braves could move into Fenway which would allow the team to sell Braves Field to BU ( which they did anyways )

The Braves moved to Milwaukee during Spring Training in 1953 simply because MLB did not want Veeck moving there first with the Browns.

Fenway
01-29-2012, 12:05 PM
Here is some clippings from 1952-53

The NL in October of 1952 awarded the All Star Game to the Boston Braves but by March of 1953 the Veeck situation in St. Louis forced the Braves hand.

There was NO hint in September of 1952 that the Braves were moving and in fact the Braves had their biggest crowd of the season in the final home game - 8,852