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Lip Man 1
01-24-2012, 04:28 PM
Says Tigers have the division to lose, potentially for the next few years. Suggests the White Sox should start dealing players to rebuild. (Hints at a possible multiple player White Sox - Red Sox deal...)

Take it for what it may be worth:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-fielder-sets-up-tigers-for-division-dominance-20120124,0,3280462.story

Lip

hi im skot
01-24-2012, 04:30 PM
I'll save you all the trouble and just say this - It's Phil Rogers!

Rocky Soprano
01-24-2012, 04:34 PM
Gut the team, there is no point in having mediocre seasons.
The only thing that worries me is our front office staff, I don't know if they are capable of rebuilding.

DirtySox
01-24-2012, 04:42 PM
What Prince Fielder Signing Means for the White Sox (http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/1/24/2730777/what-prince-fielder-signing-with-the-tigers-means-for-the-white-sox)

Jim's take. Ouch. Can't say I disagree though.

Fenway
01-24-2012, 05:12 PM
The White Sox are in a dangerous situation right and in very similar scenario to the other 2 team markets.

While nothing has translated on the field as of yet the Cubs have certainly begun the process of reinventing the culture at 1060 W. Addison. They also have the advantage that there is no superteam in the NL Central.

The A's and Mets have become totally irrelevant in their home markets and that may be the case for awhile. The Dodgers should bounce back once McCourt is gone.

Ilitch obviously will go all out to win - he is 82 years old and I don't think he is too worried about 5-6 years from now.

The core problem is that while fans most likely can accept rebuilding, you need something to rebuild with.

cards press box
01-24-2012, 05:28 PM
Says Tigers have the division to lose, potentially for the next few years. Suggests the White Sox should start dealing players to rebuild. (Hints at a possible multiple player White Sox - Red Sox deal...)

Take it for what it may be worth:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-fielder-sets-up-tigers-for-division-dominance-20120124,0,3280462.story

Lip

Cannot wait to see Fielder have a down year and see Rogers flip on a dime to question how a sane general manager could give a 9 year, $214 million contract to a player as out of shape as Fielder.

To be fair, Rogers only does that Monday morning quarterbacking with KW and, even then, KW's moves are always presumed bad and must be shown to have worked out. Even then, Rogers' acknowledgment of a good Sox move is begrudging, at best.

Of course, what do I know? I watched Jim Hendry make one stupid move after another for years and Rogers never said anything bad about those moves.

Fenway
01-24-2012, 05:33 PM
Everything is some grave sweeping situation, isn't it?

I just think you tend to overstate a lot of this stuff.


Just go to the Detroit papers - they all saying the same thing about Mike.

You saw it with the Yankees who won it for George a year before he died and since then have not spent as wildly.

Foulke You
01-24-2012, 05:51 PM
They also have the advantage that there is no superteam in the NL Central.
There is no superteam in the AL Central either.

doublem23
01-24-2012, 05:56 PM
Really this is actually quite good for the Sox. They obviously aren't going to be competing for at least another 2-3 years. The roster is just a mess and as long as we have these worthless anchors like Peavy, Rios, and Dunn around we're just ****ed. All Detroit has done is make a ridiculously long and expensive commitment to a guy who is going to be 36 years old by the time this deal is done. There's a good chance by then he's going to be an Adam Dunn-style abaltross. The Twins have Mauer locked up, the Tigers have Fielder. Should open the division in a few years for the Sox, provided they get their **** together.

WhiteSox5187
01-24-2012, 05:57 PM
There is no superteam in the AL Central either.

I would argue that the team with two of the best hitters in baseball and the best pitcher would be a super team.

DirtySox
01-24-2012, 05:57 PM
Fangraphs' take here (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/detroit-goes-for-it-signs-prince-fielder/).

SephClone89
01-24-2012, 05:57 PM
There is no superteam in the AL Central either.

The Tigers are damn close. Their offense may not stack up with TEX, BOS, NYY or even LAA, but their rotation is arguably the best in the league.

That and their 3-4 punch is one of the best RH hitters in the game followed by one of the best LH hitters in the game.

Fenway
01-24-2012, 06:01 PM
There is no superteam in the AL Central either.

The Tigers may win 100 games in the Central as they should feast on the division games.

The amazing thing is Boras ALWAYS wins.

DSpivack
01-24-2012, 06:09 PM
Really this is actually quite good for the Sox. They obviously aren't going to be competing for at least another 2-3 years. The roster is just a mess and as long as we have these worthless anchors like Peavy, Rios, and Dunn around we're just ****ed. All Detroit has done is make a ridiculously long and expensive commitment to a guy who is going to be 36 years old by the time this deal is done. There's a good chance by then he's going to be an Adam Dunn-style abaltross. The Twins have Mauer locked up, the Tigers have Fielder. Should open the division in a few years for the Sox, provided they get their **** together.

There's kind of an interesting parallel there, that Peavy, Dunn & Rios are off the payroll by 2015, while perhaps the Tigers' window is open until then (though Cabrera and Martinez also have contracts ending then), as Fielder who likely not be as good in the last few years of this deal as the first few. Also, much has been written about Ilitch going for it now, and perhaps he is sacrificing future payroll flexibility for that chance. It kind of reminds me of Sam Zell, as he collected horrendous contracts in order to make the playoffs in 2007 and 2008, only to sell the team soon as soon as that window closed (and did a brilliant job of doing it, as it seems he ripped of the Ricketts). The difference there is that Ilitch/Dombrowski seem to be signing players who are much better at baseball than Hendry/Zell did (Soriano, Fukudome, Harden, etc.).

So, I'm not so optimistic about the Sox in the next few years, and will be surprised to see anyone other than Detroit winning the division, as the Sox are hamstrung by bad contracts and the Twins by injuries; maybe the youngsters in Cleveland and Kansas City will prevail. But, by 2015 or so, things should be more wide open, as you say.

mzh
01-24-2012, 06:18 PM
The Tigers may win 100 games in the Central as they should feast on the division games.

The amazing thing is Boras ALWAYS wins.
You never know with baseball. Most people were saying the same thing about the Sox in 2006 after they acquired Thome.

Verlander has been so consistent it's hard to imagine him falling off, but Mark Buehrle has been arguably the most consistent pitcher in baseball over the last ten years, and nobody expected his arm to fall off the second half of 06 after an extended postseason run.

I also hardly think you can call the Tigers a 'superteam' until their pitching as a whole takes that next step. You can't reasonably expect Verlander to post a 2.20 ERA over 250 innings again, nor can Doug Fister do what he did last year over a full season in Detroit. Scherzer and Porcello have all shown flashes, but neither can really seem to pull it together.

There's no doubt the Tigers are a very very dangerous team right now. But like I said, there are so many unknowns. If Dunn and Rios on our side and Verlander, Fister, Peralta et al. go back to their career norms, it's a totally different story.

That said, I still don't expect the Sox to compete particularly closely.But the whole point of this post is, who the hell knows??? People have pointed out the low expectations going into 05 and 08, and I think having just watched a full season of the 2011 Sox I'll wait until the season actually starts to play out before saying the Sox are on the edge of irrelevance and the Tigers are a bona fide superteam.

Lip Man 1
01-24-2012, 06:18 PM
Hopefully by 2015 the Sox have some fans left. :D:

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/20196/prince-fielder-contract-absurd-but-does-it-matter

Lip

asindc
01-24-2012, 06:25 PM
The Tigers may win 100 games in the Central as they should feast on the division games.

The amazing thing is Boras ALWAYS wins.

That might be true for him, but for the teams that deal with him... it is definitely a mixed bag and, in this case, one that comes with very high risk.

JB98
01-24-2012, 06:35 PM
Really this is actually quite good for the Sox. They obviously aren't going to be competing for at least another 2-3 years. The roster is just a mess and as long as we have these worthless anchors like Peavy, Rios, and Dunn around we're just ****ed. All Detroit has done is make a ridiculously long and expensive commitment to a guy who is going to be 36 years old by the time this deal is done. There's a good chance by then he's going to be an Adam Dunn-style abaltross. The Twins have Mauer locked up, the Tigers have Fielder. Should open the division in a few years for the Sox, provided they get their **** together.

This is my reaction as well.

This move means absolutely nothing for the Sox. Literally nothing.

We stink and likely will stink for 2-3 years. Meanwhile, Detroit will have its window to win. By the time we return to legitimate contention (hopefully around 2015, fingers crossed), the Tigers window will be closing and they'll be stuck paying a fat-ass 1B/DH $23 million per year.

Huge overpay by Detroit, but it will be worth it if they win a title in the next three years.

Tragg
01-24-2012, 06:41 PM
As long as we get more players in return than we give up, it will be a winning trade. (I learned that from Phil long ago).

And selling low on Beckham is not a great idea. Boston might think he can recoup some of the plate discipline that he had before he got under the tutelage of Walker and Guillen.

JB98
01-24-2012, 06:45 PM
The Tigers are damn close. Their offense may not stack up with TEX, BOS, NYY or even LAA, but their rotation is arguably the best in the league.

That and their 3-4 punch is one of the best RH hitters in the game followed by one of the best LH hitters in the game.

:scratch:

Verlander is great, but I actually think they are an arm short in the rotation. If they have any money left, they should trade prospects to the Cubs for Garza. He'd be the No. 2 starter on that team the moment he walked into the clubhouse.

PalehosePlanet
01-24-2012, 06:47 PM
This reminds me of The Tigers trading for Cabrera and Willis back in the winter of '07-'08. These boards were full of 100 win predictions for Detroit. We were coming off a 72 win season and everybody thought KW was crazy with his famous quote about Detroit being in a better position to compete with us. (We finished 14 games ahead of the Tigers, so technically he was wrong?)

They certainly look better than us on paper, but are not a great team by any means. They have possibly the worst IF defense, certainly range wise they do, in the majors. In fact you could say that all of Cabrera, Fielder, Rayburn, Peralta, and Inge are better suited to DH nowadays. When Martinez comes back, that's another one. So there is Austin Jackson at CF, Avila at C, Santiago and Kelly as utility players and 7 or so DH/1B types.

Rotation: One excellent starter and a ****load of question marks.

They have the potential, sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they finished at about .500 either.

SephClone89
01-24-2012, 06:57 PM
This reminds me of The Tigers trading for Cabrera and Willis back in the winter of '07-'08. These boards were full of 100 win predictions for Detroit. We were coming off a 72 win season and everybody thought KW was crazy with his famous quote about Detroit being in a better position to compete with us. (We finished 14 games ahead of the Tigers, so technically he was wrong?)

They certainly look better than us on paper, but are not a great team by any means. They have possibly the worst IF defense, certainly range wise they do, in the majors. In fact you could say that all of Cabrera, Fielder, Rayburn, Peralta, and Inge are better suited to DH nowadays. When Martinez comes back, that's another one. So there is Austin Jackson at CF, Avila at C, Santiago and Kelly as utility players and 7 or so DH/1B types.

Rotation: One excellent starter and a ****load of question marks.

They have the potential, sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they finished at about .500 either.

This is somewhat contradictory.

WhiteSox5187
01-24-2012, 07:01 PM
This reminds me of The Tigers trading for Cabrera and Willis back in the winter of '07-'08. These boards were full of 100 win predictions for Detroit. We were coming off a 72 win season and everybody thought KW was crazy with his famous quote about Detroit being in a better position to compete with us. (We finished 14 games ahead of the Tigers, so technically he was wrong?)

They certainly look better than us on paper, but are not a great team by any means. They have possibly the worst IF defense, certainly range wise they do, in the majors. In fact you could say that all of Cabrera, Fielder, Rayburn, Peralta, and Inge are better suited to DH nowadays. When Martinez comes back, that's another one. So there is Austin Jackson at CF, Avila at C, Santiago and Kelly as utility players and 7 or so DH/1B types.

Rotation: One excellent starter and a ****load of question marks.

They have the potential, sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they finished at about .500 either.

I think that Fister is a pretty solid starter. They have one excellent starters, a solid number two in Fister and then a bunch of question marks (but those question marks have a big upside).

JB98
01-24-2012, 07:06 PM
I think that Fister is a pretty solid starter. They have one excellent starters, a solid number two in Fister and then a bunch of question marks (but those question marks have a big upside).

Fister was terrific last year. The two years prior to that, he had an ERA over 4 while pitching in Seattle.

This is a big year for him. We'll find out if he has come into his own, or if he just had a career season last year.

Tragg
01-24-2012, 07:12 PM
Tigers got exceptionally hot in September last year. Whether it carries over, we'll see.
But I think they'll give up a ton of runs.
And Valverde - I watched him in Houston and he was less than a certainty to get the save...last year, he's perfect. They'll be some regression on that team.

JB98
01-24-2012, 07:21 PM
Tigers got exceptionally hot in September last year. Whether it carries over, we'll see.
But I think they'll give up a ton of runs.
And Valverde - I watched him in Houston and he was less than a certainty to get the save...last year, he's perfect. They'll be some regression on that team.

Peralta is likely to come back to reality, too. He had his best year since 2008 last season. Verlander, for as good as he is, was significantly above career norms also.

Brian26
01-24-2012, 07:23 PM
Says Tigers have the division to lose, potentially for the next few years. Suggests the White Sox should start dealing players to rebuild. (Hints at a possible multiple player White Sox - Red Sox deal...)

Take it for what it may be worth:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-fielder-sets-up-tigers-for-division-dominance-20120124,0,3280462.story

Lip

I thought that Ozzie Martinez has already passed Escobar as the possible backup SS, if not ultimate replacement for Alexei. Is Phil this out of the loop that he doesn't know this?

DirtySox
01-24-2012, 07:26 PM
I thought that Ozzie Martinez has already passed Escobar as the possible backup SS, if not ultimate replacement for Alexei. Is Phil this out of the loop that he doesn't know this?

Ozzie Martinez might be the backup this year, but he's not considered a better prospect at this point. Every prospect list put out this season has Eduardo higher, except for Phil Rogers actually.

gosox41
01-24-2012, 08:48 PM
Says Tigers have the division to lose, potentially for the next few years. Suggests the White Sox should start dealing players to rebuild. (Hints at a possible multiple player White Sox - Red Sox deal...)

Take it for what it may be worth:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-fielder-sets-up-tigers-for-division-dominance-20120124,0,3280462.story

Lip


I try not to read Phil so here is my take:

Tigers are a dangerous team for the next couple of years. They also are bogged down with big contracts. What do they to when V Mart, Miggy, and Prince all have to split DH/1B. Anyone who thinks V Mart is going to catch 130-140 games a season (and mailtain his hitting) is kidding themselves.

Also, let's see Prince's numbers drop at Comerica. Still a great hitter (at least for the next couple of years) but after year 3, I'd expect a decline as the weight catches up with him.

2012 was pretty much a lost cause for the Sox. I'd be more looking to hope players like Dunn and Rios get off to good starts in hopes that they can be unloaded (whether the Sox eat some salary, net less prospects, or just include them in a Gavin Floyd deal remains to be seen.)


Bob

gosox41
01-24-2012, 08:52 PM
This is my reaction as well.

This move means absolutely nothing for the Sox. Literally nothing.

We stink and likely will stink for 2-3 years. Meanwhile, Detroit will have its window to win. By the time we return to legitimate contention (hopefully around 2015, fingers crossed), the Tigers window will be closing and they'll be stuck paying a fat-ass 1B/DH $23 million per year.

Huge overpay by Detroit, but it will be worth it if they win a title in the next three years.


To take it one step further, if you believe the theor that in a short series anything can happen (which I do) then DET way overpaid as the AL Central is terrible. You don't need a $24 Million DH/1B to win this division for the next 2-3 years. They could have gotten a lesser player for a lot less money and still probably won the division by 10 games. After that, its a matter of facing a rested Verlander 2-3 times in a short series.


Bob

Vernam
01-24-2012, 09:01 PM
I'll save you all the trouble and just say this - It's Phil Rogers!

I'd love to get that pants-pisser in a high-stakes poker game.

Vernam