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Lip Man 1
01-10-2012, 12:19 AM
If I read it right, the author seems to think Kenny is abandoning his "gambling" approach with his latest moves.

http://www.chicagonow.com/white-sox-observer/2012/01/the-white-sox-are-extremists/

Lip

DirtySox
01-10-2012, 12:33 AM
I sure hope that Kenny's outlook has changed. The great value of prospects and cheap homegrown talent has become more and more apparent over the years and Kenny has lagged behind in that regard. He certainly has a while to go though. The farm is still barren, and all he's added is Nestor Molina and a bunch of "C" prospects. Simon Castro returning to form would be a big get. Either way, plenty of work needs to be done. Hitting on the 13th pick this summer is very important. I'd also like to see Floyd dealt if he can bring back another "B" prospect and some lower level pieces. The model to success that so many clubs employ is a combination of homegrown talent and free agent pieces. It doesn't have to be one or the other, which many people seem to think is what's advocated when desiring a good farm system. A good farm will augment the big league club, not replace it entirely.

Fenway
01-10-2012, 01:46 AM
If I read it right, the author seems to think Kenny is abandoning his "gambling" approach with his latest moves.

http://www.chicagonow.com/white-sox-observer/2012/01/the-white-sox-are-extremists/

Lip

Let us be brutally honest here ( pay attention out there in Idaho )

What the Red Sox, Yankees, Angels and Rangers do means very little to the White Sox. The Sox compete with Detroit, Cleveland and Minneapolis and maybe once again Kansas City.

NYY spends - Boston tries to keep up - well fine the markets can support it.
BUT what those teams wind up doing should not effect the White Sox one iota.

The AL Central was designed by Selig to help one team.....and one owner...and in 2005 it worked...otherwise not exactly.

Going into 2012 I feel for KW - ( and JR as well ) - Rios and Dunn on paper looked like a slam dunk in 2011.

But for the love of gawd can White Sox fans ignore what happens in the AL East ( and now the West) and just focus on the Central????

DonnieDarko
01-10-2012, 08:40 AM
But for the love of gawd can White Sox fans ignore what happens in the AL East ( and now the West) and just focus on the Central???? Considering that the AL East is (unfortunately) the heart and soul of baseball? Where most of baseball's fanbase is located, due to the Yankees and Red Sox?

No, not really.

I'm also finding it odd how you consider how the AL Central was created to help the White Sox. Where's your proof on that one?

JohnTucker0814
01-10-2012, 08:41 AM
Let us be brutally honest here ( pay attention out there in Idaho )

What the Red Sox, Yankees, Angels and Rangers do means very little to the White Sox. The Sox compete with Detroit, Cleveland and Minneapolis and maybe once again Kansas City.

NYY spends - Boston tries to keep up - well fine the markets can support it.
BUT what those teams wind up doing should not effect the White Sox one iota.

The AL Central was designed by Selig to help one team.....and one owner...and in 2005 it worked...otherwise not exactly.

Going into 2012 I feel for KW - ( and JR as well ) - Rios and Dunn on paper looked like a slam dunk in 2011.

But for the love of gawd can White Sox fans ignore what happens in the AL East ( and now the West) and just focus on the Central????








The White Sox

You're wrong Fenway. If memory serves me correct you don't play the AL Central to get to the World Series. Eventually you'll have to compete against the likes of the Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, Angels, etc...

DonnieDarko
01-10-2012, 08:43 AM
You're wrong Fenway. If memory serves me correct you don't play the AL Central to get to the World Series. Eventually you'll have to compete against the likes of the Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, Angels, etc...

Nevermind in the playoffs. We play them at least twice a year during the regular season, too!

Frater Perdurabo
01-10-2012, 08:45 AM
You're wrong Fenway. If memory serves me correct you don't play the AL Central to get to the World Series. Eventually you'll have to compete against the likes of the Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, Angels, etc...

Yes, but with perpetual big spenders East and West, winning the Central is our path of least resistance to the postseason. And other than 2005, the Sox record against division rivals had been disappointing.

Frater Perdurabo
01-10-2012, 08:48 AM
Yes, but with perpetual big spenders East and West, winning the Central is our path of least resistance to the postseason. And other than 2005, the Sox record against division rivals had been disappointing.

Based on market position, the Sox should be dominating their division rivals. The fact that they haven't damns the whole organization, from top to bottom.

Fenway
01-10-2012, 10:26 AM
You're wrong Fenway. If memory serves me correct you don't play the AL Central to get to the World Series. Eventually you'll have to compete against the likes of the Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, Angels, etc...

A high payroll does help over 162 games - but not as much in a short series.

And while it is true that the White Sox do play NYY, Bos, Tex and Anaheim during the season - so do the other teams in the Central.

The Twins didn't dominate because the Pohlad's were spending money, they simply had better baseball people. The Tigers may overspend now because Mike Ilitch wants to win before he dies. Ilitch also doesn't mind if his teams lose money because fans flocking downtown will wind up spending money at other venues that he owns. (casino, Hockeytown etc). The Tigers and Twins are drawing better at the gate, but they also have the advantage of being the only team in the market and playing downtown.

It boggles the mind that the White Sox can not put back to back playoff runs together. But for whatever reason JR will not clean house and bring in new people top to bottom. Just look at 2 proud hockey teams that floundered for decades - the Blackhawks and Bruins. Nothing changed until the front office was cleaned out.

Ponder this over your morning coffee - if KW was fired this afternoon how many teams would be calling him to make him their GM?

The whole concept of the three divisions can be traced back the White Sox being fed up with being in the AL West. When Fay Vincent tried to change the divisions he wound up getting fired because the Tribune did not want to see the Cubs being moved. Of course then you had the insanity of St. Louis being in the East and Atlanta in the west.

The White Sox wound up being screwed when they were sent to the AL West in 1969 but at least then it was a pure geographic move - but the story I was told than in 1972 it was the Brewers who were moved East and not the White Sox simply because the powers than ran MLB just assumed the White Sox would soon leave Chicago.

Hitmen77
01-12-2012, 11:18 AM
Based on market position, the Sox should be dominating their division rivals. The fact that they haven't damns the whole organization, from top to bottom.

I have found it odd that the organization is full of former Sox players: Williams, Ventura, Thigpen, Dotson, Boston, seven years of Walker. ....are these really the best baseball minds out there that will get the best talent out of this organization? Or is a matter of loyalty trumping accountability?

asindc
01-12-2012, 11:27 AM
I have found it odd that the organization is full of former Sox players: Williams, Ventura, Thigpen, Dotson, Boston, seven years of Walker. ....are these really the best baseball minds out there that will get the best talent out of this organization? Or is a matter of loyalty trumping accountability?

Well, considering that JR has enjoyed his biggest successes during this era when he is employing mostly former Sox players for baseball operations, I'm guessing that he sees no problem with continuing that approach. (For the record, while I'm glad to see some former Sox players among management, I don't think that should be a major factor in hiring someone.)

A. Cavatica
01-13-2012, 08:16 AM
I have found it odd that the organization is full of former Sox players: Williams, Ventura, Thigpen, Dotson, Boston, seven years of Walker. ....are these really the best baseball minds out there that will get the best talent out of this organization? Or is a matter of loyalty trumping accountability?

It's loyalty trumping accountability. This has so obviously been the problem with the organization in recent years that I'm amazed the question wasn't written in teal.

Hitmen77
01-13-2012, 09:49 AM
Well, considering that JR has enjoyed his biggest successes during this era when he is employing mostly former Sox players for baseball operations, I'm guessing that he sees no problem with continuing that approach. (For the record, while I'm glad to see some former Sox players among management, I don't think that should be a major factor in hiring someone.)

Winning the WS in '05 wasn't a vindication of how the Sox have run their minor league system over the last 10 years.

For all I know, all these former players really are the best baseball people out there. But, I have my doubts that is really the case.

It's loyalty trumping accountability. This has so obviously been the problem with the organization in recent years that I'm amazed the question wasn't written in teal.

The only shake up I can think of in recent years was in 2008 when they hired Buddy Bell for their minor league system. That was something like 4 years ago now and the Sox are just as devoid of talent as ever.

wassagstdu
01-13-2012, 10:27 AM
Rios and Dunn on paper looked like a slam dunk in 2011.

Doubts were expressed at the time in both cases, and in my opinion the Sox knew or should have known exactly what they were getting (a head case with occasional flashes of talent and a one-dimensional player tipping into decline). Williams' response was the same as the majority of the fan base: crossed fingers and rolled dice. Hope is not a plan.

doublem23
01-13-2012, 11:10 AM
Hope is not a plan.

Ha, right, that's pretty much every team's plan.

russ99
01-13-2012, 01:10 PM
I hope Kenny's changes his ways as well.

I don't have an inherent problem with either the big market or rebuilding approach, but it sure seems that the Sox have halfheartedly doing either.

If you're going to be a big market team spending a top 5 payroll, then they should really go out and get good players. Sadly Jerry seems to keep just enough a rein on payroll at those times so Kenny is forced to pick up reclamation projects, and hopeful players that rarely pan out. And then he has to take huge risks on midseason additions when they don't work out...

Aside from the "All In" spending to acquire the remaining parts of the 2011 team, this was the Sox' primary plan since 2005.

And if you're going to rebuild, then invest in the draft and international FAs, and stop being in lockstep with Bud's caps and the "signability" nonsense that caused our system to turn into the worst in the majors. I can only hope that the next two years are about shedding contracts and rebuilding the system and not another smokescreen of doing just enough to keep the revenue coming in.

Lip Man 1
01-13-2012, 01:17 PM
I'd agree with Russ's post.

Lip

TaylorStSox
01-14-2012, 10:01 AM
Just going out and getting top players is a 2 way street. The Sox have tried to play the FA market more recently. The problem is that a lot of free agents don't see the Sox as a good destination. This is part of the reason Kenny has had to be creative.

asindc
01-14-2012, 12:57 PM
Winning the WS in '05 wasn't a vindication of how the Sox have run their minor league system over the last 10 years.

For all I know, all these former players really are the best baseball people out there. But, I have my doubts that is really the case.



The only shake up I can think of in recent years was in 2008 when they hired Buddy Bell for their minor league system. That was something like 4 years ago now and the Sox are just as devoid of talent as ever.

I don't necessarily think it was a vindication, but my point is that JR probably thinks it was, considering that none of his other approaches have worked nearly as well.

Tragg
01-15-2012, 09:45 AM
And if you're going to rebuild, then invest in the draft and international FAs, and stop being in lockstep with Bud's caps and the "signability" nonsense that caused our system to turn into the worst in the majors. I can only hope that the next two years are about shedding contracts and rebuilding the system and not another smokescreen of doing just enough to keep the revenue coming in.

I don't see how this adherence to the slot can be a real problem. Even if adherence means that when we draft, say, at 15, we take the 25th best player, the 25th best player still should be a quality player. A lot of our picks are nothing but organizational minor leaguers in talent. It's scouting, bad philosophy or whatever.
My problem with KW's performance is that he gives up our top young talent for mediocre or flawed players that teams are trying to dump. Other teams don't give up their top young talent when getting mediocre players.