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View Full Version : NESN: White Sox worst minor league system


Fenway
01-07-2012, 10:29 PM
http://www.nesn.com/2012/01/orioles-marlins-among-mlb-teams-with-subpar-farm-systems.html

Please don't shoot the messenger - just passing it out for debate.

soxnut1018
01-07-2012, 10:36 PM
NESN: Water is wet

DirtySox
01-07-2012, 11:07 PM
There is no debate. It's awful and has been for a while.

You probably should have posted this in the minor league section.

Tragg
01-07-2012, 11:21 PM
Didn't we get 3 of the Marlins' top 10 prospects for Ozzie - and we're still the worst?

Fenway
01-07-2012, 11:31 PM
Didn't we get 3 of the Marlins' top 10 prospects for Ozzie - and we're still the worst?

The Marlins system wasn't so hot either.

Fenway
01-07-2012, 11:37 PM
There is no debate. It's awful and has been for a while.

You probably should have posted this in the minor league section.


Tough call - as the Sox are possibly in rebuilding mode, but with what?

The damage Dave Wilder did to the White Sox is almost impossible to calculate - and the baseball people I have talked to do not understand how KW has escaped the scandal.

thomas35forever
01-07-2012, 11:52 PM
We have to prepare to be in for a long wait for success because that's exactly what we're in for.

DirtySox
01-08-2012, 12:16 AM
Tough call - as the Sox are possibly in rebuilding mode, but with what?

The damage Dave Wilder did to the White Sox is almost impossible to calculate - and the baseball people I have talked to do not understand how KW has escaped the scandal.

It's not just the lack of presence and spending on international talent. Jerry doesn't let Kenny spend on the draft. The Sox routinely stick to slot recommendations and thus end up completely avoiding a huge portion of talent in the draft. Go look at total draft, and bonus expenditure spending. The Sox have been in the bottom routinely for some years now (http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2011/08/bonus-expenditures-2007-11/). Couple all this with a dearth of effective scouts, an inability to churn out major leaguers from what talent they do end up drafting, and Kenny's propensity to trade prospects to "win now!" and you have the current situation the Sox are in. The CBA changes to the draft with effectively instituting hard slotting without calling it hard slotting should rectify some of these issues.

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2012, 01:40 AM
We have to prepare to be in for a long wait for success because that's exactly what we're in for.

I disagree. It's still a very winnable division every year.

SI1020
01-08-2012, 01:09 PM
A decade or so ago they said the Sox had the best minor league system. I think subsequent events proved that not to be the case. Now it's supposed to be the worst. My view is probably not, although there is no doubt it is lousy and somewhere in the bottom 10. This type of list is problematic. It takes years before you know how good or bad your prospects really were.

Fenway
01-08-2012, 01:26 PM
List continues with teams 20-11

http://www.nesn.com/2012/01/red-sox-will-middlebrooks-angels-mike-trout-highlight-middle-of-the-road-minor-league-systems.html?rs-img120=0

palehozenychicty
01-08-2012, 01:50 PM
I disagree. It's still a very winnable division every year.

The division is winnable every year, but is the pennant a realistic option for the foreseeable future? The AL West is full of teams with cash, and the East will always be a threat.

I think we do have a lot of work for becoming a pennant contender.

soxnut1018
01-08-2012, 04:42 PM
The division is winnable every year, but is the pennant a realistic option for the foreseeable future? The AL West is full of teams with cash, and the East will always be a threat.

I think we do have a lot of work for becoming a pennant contender.

Just make the playoffs. Everything else is a crapshoot.

palehozenychicty
01-08-2012, 04:43 PM
Just make the playoffs. Everything else is a crap shoot.

It's a crap shoot once you get in, but there's a reason why certain teams annually make it and others appear once in a while. I'd prefer to make it every year and bring noise.

LoveYourSuit
01-08-2012, 05:33 PM
It's a crap shoot once you get in, but there's a reason why certain teams annually make it and others appear once in a while. I'd prefer to make it every year and bring noise.

The teams that are in every year as you say are because they spend and spend big on the ML roster.


The Twins being the exception but what has that gotten for them?

The Rays too small a sample size.

WhiteSox5187
01-08-2012, 05:57 PM
The teams that are in every year as you say are because they spend and spend big on the ML roster.


The Twins being the exception but what has that gotten for them?

The Rays too small a sample size.

With the exception of the Yankees (and maybe even including the Yankees) those teams spend a LOT on the draft too. The Rays have made it three of the last four years and have done it almost exclusively through the draft. The Rangers have a lot of homegrown talent, the Cardinals as well. Even the Red Sox have a lot of homegrown guys. The only team that seems to build exclusively through free agency is the Yankees.

palehosepub
01-09-2012, 08:49 AM
1-10 out there this morning #1 & 2 are the Padres and the Blue Jays Kenny's recent trading partners...... At least he is dealing the deepest systems

Fenway
01-09-2012, 09:13 AM
1-10 out there this morning #1 & 2 are the Padres and the Blue Jays Kenny's recent trading partners...... At least he is dealing the deepest systems

http://www.nesn.com/2012/01/yankees-jesus-montero-rays-matt-moore-put-respective-farm-systems-among-baseballs-best.html

doublem23
01-09-2012, 09:33 AM
Even the Red Sox have a lot of homegrown guys.

The Yankees start just as much homegrown guys as the Red Sox do.

Hitmen77
01-09-2012, 12:57 PM
It's not just the lack of presence and spending on international talent. Jerry doesn't let Kenny spend on the draft. The Sox routinely stick to slot recommendations and thus end up completely avoiding a huge portion of talent in the draft. Go look at total draft, and bonus expenditure spending. The Sox have been in the bottom routinely for some years now (http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2011/08/bonus-expenditures-2007-11/). Couple all this with a dearth of effective scouts, an inability to churn out major leaguers from what talent they do end up drafting, and Kenny's propensity to trade prospects to "win now!" and you have the current situation the Sox are in. The CBA changes to the draft with effectively instituting hard slotting without calling it hard slotting should rectify some of these issues.

Who was the last player to come up through the Sox system to become a decent MLB starting player for the Sox? Nevermind any all-stars, how about even just a passable MLB starting player?

I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone in the last 10 years. This last 10 years has brought us the likes of Brian Anderson and Josh Fields. Beckham was supposed to be our one homegrown success thanks to our #8 overall pick in 2008, but he's looking more and more like another bust.

Chris Sale looks promising. We'll see what Brent Morel does after his rookie season. Also, it sounds like Addison Reed might be someone to look forward to.

KW has had success in picking up talent from other farms systems via trades (Danks, Floyd, Quentin) but we're several years removed from those successes. That's probably the closest we've come in the last 10 years to developing our own talent.

Aside from the new CBA helping the Sox, is there anything that we can hope current Sox ownership will do improve this organization's lack of talent? I seem to recall that they supposedly had a "shakeup" around 2008 (when they brought in Buddy Bell). It's 3 or 4 years later and things still look pretty bad.

It's not very likely to build a consistently winning organization without having a good farm system as part of the mix.

palehosepub
01-09-2012, 02:35 PM
Who was the last player to come up through the Sox system to become a decent MLB starting player for the Sox? Nevermind any all-stars, how about even just a passable MLB starting player?

I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone in the last 10 years. This last 10 years has brought us the likes of Brian Anderson and Josh Fields. Beckham was supposed to be our one homegrown success thanks to our #8 overall pick in 2008, but he's looking more and more like another bust.

Chris Sale looks promising. We'll see what Brent Morel does after his rookie season. Also, it sounds like Addison Reed might be someone to look forward to.

KW has had success in picking up talent from other farms systems via trades (Danks, Floyd, Quentin) but we're several years removed from those successes. That's probably the closest we've come in the last 10 years to developing our own talent.

Aside from the new CBA helping the Sox, is there anything that we can hope current Sox ownership will do improve this organization's lack of talent? I seem to recall that they supposedly had a "shakeup" around 2008 (when they brought in Buddy Bell). It's 3 or 4 years later and things still look pretty bad.

It's not very likely to build a consistently winning organization without having a good farm system as part of the mix.

Probably Aaron Rowand

WhiteSox5187
01-09-2012, 03:32 PM
The Yankees start just as much homegrown guys as the Red Sox do.

By my count the Red Sox have three regular position players who were drafted by them and four pitchers, the Yankees have seven also. I suppose the difference is that the Yankees have only four players who make significant contributions that came up in their system in the past ten years while all seven of the Red Sox came up in the past ten years.

My point was that successful teams have a lot of homegrown talent mixed in with free agents. Even those Yankee dynasties of the 1990s and early 2000s had a lot of homegrown talent.

Daver
01-09-2012, 03:35 PM
Probably Aaron Rowand


Matt Guerrier is still bouncing around the majors somewhere.

eriqjaffe
01-09-2012, 03:51 PM
Matt Guerrier is still bouncing around the majors somewhere.I think the caveat was "with the Sox." Kenny's traded away a number of minor leaguers who have turned out to be fairly serviceable players in the majors.

Heck, he traded Gio Gonzalez twice. :wink:

Viva Medias B's
01-09-2012, 09:39 PM
http://www.nesn.com/2012/01/orioles-marlins-among-mlb-teams-with-subpar-farm-systems.html

Please don't shoot the messenger - just passing it out for debate.

The No. 1 reason KW should be fired.

SoxSpeed22
01-09-2012, 10:08 PM
Chicken or the egg. Yes, KW has overpaid for average or above average players, Gio and Hudson (I'm sure I'm missing some more) would be nice for our team right now. Then again, when you give him jack**** to work with (lack of scouts, both domestic and international, low budget to spend on draft picks), what's he supposed to do?

palehozenychicty
01-10-2012, 02:19 PM
Who was the last player to come up through the Sox system to become a decent MLB starting player for the Sox? Nevermind any all-stars, how about even just a passable MLB starting player?

I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone in the last 10 years. This last 10 years has brought us the likes of Brian Anderson and Josh Fields. Beckham was supposed to be our one homegrown success thanks to our #8 overall pick in 2008, but he's looking more and more like another bust.

Chris Sale looks promising. We'll see what Brent Morel does after his rookie season. Also, it sounds like Addison Reed might be someone to look forward to.

KW has had success in picking up talent from other farms systems via trades (Danks, Floyd, Quentin) but we're several years removed from those successes. That's probably the closest we've come in the last 10 years to developing our own talent.

Aside from the new CBA helping the Sox, is there anything that we can hope current Sox ownership will do improve this organization's lack of talent? I seem to recall that they supposedly had a "shakeup" around 2008 (when they brought in Buddy Bell). It's 3 or 4 years later and things still look pretty bad.

It's not very likely to build a consistently winning organization without having a good farm system as part of the mix.

All this is my larger overall point.

WhiteSox5187
01-10-2012, 02:24 PM
Chicken or the egg. Yes, KW has overpaid for average or above average players, Gio and Hudson (I'm sure I'm missing some more) would be nice for our team right now. Then again, when you give him jack**** to work with (lack of scouts, both domestic and international, low budget to spend on draft picks), what's he supposed to do?

You can blame Jerry for the lack of money spent on the draft but Kenny is the guy who is supposed to assemble good domestic and international scouts.

Daver
01-10-2012, 10:23 PM
You can blame Jerry for the lack of money spent on the draft but Kenny is the guy who is supposed to assemble good domestic and international scouts.

No, the minor league director does that, when KW held that position the farm system was rather highly rated.

Hitmen77
01-11-2012, 08:08 AM
Probably Aaron Rowand

He was drafted in 1998 and came up with the Sox in 2001. That's a really long time since the Sox developed their own quality MLB player.

I think the caveat was "with the Sox." Kenny's traded away a number of minor leaguers who have turned out to be fairly serviceable players in the majors.

Heck, he traded Gio Gonzalez twice. :wink:

I'd like to have Gio and Daniel Hudson back. But even the list of prospects we traded away that have turned into everyday MLB players is rather thin. Here are the ones that I can think of.
- Gio Gonzalez
- Daniel Hudson
- Chris Young
- Matt Guerrier

This means that KW usually doesn't have as many pieces to deal to get quality players either.

Huisj
02-16-2012, 11:44 AM
It's been a bad decade in draft land for the Sox according to Fangraphs:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/building-through-the-draft-worst-of-the-worst/

This looks all the drafts since 2002 and ranks teams by total WAR contribution they got out of those drafted players.

Our top two position players drafted in that span: Gordon Beckham and Chris Getz.

Not that this is really news to anyone, it's just interesting to see it organized in this way to show how awful our return has been on drafts.

Harry Chappas
02-17-2012, 05:05 PM
It's been a bad decade in draft land for the Sox according to Fangraphs:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/building-through-the-draft-worst-of-the-worst/

This looks all the drafts since 2002 and ranks teams by total WAR contribution they got out of those drafted players.

Our top two position players drafted in that span: Gordon Beckham and Chris Getz.

Not that this is really news to anyone, it's just interesting to see it organized in this way to show how awful our return has been on drafts.

Dear god, that is disturbing. I knew the organization sucked at identifying talent but you have to almost make a conscious effort to select losers to not find anyone better than Chris Getz or Beckham for that matter. You would think just by luck alone that they would have struck gold with someone.

And this is why I can't stand the idea that Kenny Williams is in charge of the current rebuilding effort. The dude is okay in free agency but when it comes to drafting or acquiring prospects, he's a huge liability.

Harry Chappas
02-17-2012, 05:10 PM
Who was the last player to come up through the Sox system to become a decent MLB starting player for the Sox? Nevermind any all-stars, how about even just a passable MLB starting player?

I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone in the last 10 years. This last 10 years has brought us the likes of Brian Anderson and Josh Fields. Beckham was supposed to be our one homegrown success thanks to our #8 overall pick in 2008, but he's looking more and more like another bust.

Chris Sale looks promising. We'll see what Brent Morel does after his rookie season. Also, it sounds like Addison Reed might be someone to look forward to.

KW has had success in picking up talent from other farms systems via trades (Danks, Floyd, Quentin) but we're several years removed from those successes. That's probably the closest we've come in the last 10 years to developing our own talent.

Aside from the new CBA helping the Sox, is there anything that we can hope current Sox ownership will do improve this organization's lack of talent? I seem to recall that they supposedly had a "shakeup" around 2008 (when they brought in Buddy Bell). It's 3 or 4 years later and things still look pretty bad.

It's not very likely to build a consistently winning organization without having a good farm system as part of the mix.

Picking nits here, but I think Danks, Floyd, and Quentin had all, at some point, reached the major league level prior to the Sox acquiring them. I would say they were more MLB reclamation projects that panned out.

rdivaldi
02-18-2012, 12:02 PM
Picking nits here, but I think Danks, Floyd, and Quentin had all, at some point, reached the major league level prior to the Sox acquiring them. I would say they were more MLB reclamation projects that panned out.

Floyd and Quentin reached the majors for previously, Danks made his major league debut with the White Sox.

Floyd and Quentin were not "reclamation projects", both were still considered prospects when they reached the Sox. They fulfilled their potential after we got them.

JorgeFabregas
02-18-2012, 12:23 PM
Dear god, that is disturbing. I knew the organization sucked at identifying talent but you have to almost make a conscious effort to select losers to not find anyone better than Chris Getz or Beckham for that matter. You would think just by luck alone that they would have struck gold with someone.

And this is why I can't stand the idea that Kenny Williams is in charge of the current rebuilding effort. The dude is okay in free agency but when it comes to drafting or acquiring prospects, he's a huge liability.
That WAR total would more than double if Gio and Hudson were included, FWIW.

Huisj
02-19-2012, 06:08 PM
That WAR total would more than double if Gio and Hudson were included, FWIW.

I suppose it's worth something, but in many cases it's not really worth something all that good. It tells us that once in a while when the Sox do draft someone good, they send them packing before they can contribute and that the return is not very good (Swisher and Jackson). That doesn't really help the case for the Sox development and judgment of young talent.

The only young talent the Sox seem to have had success with in the last decade (as far as making actual contributions to the White Sox and not another team) is the former top prospect who needs a change of scenery type that they acquire in trades.