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View Full Version : KW.......Whats the story.


LITTLE NELL
01-01-2012, 08:26 PM
Anybody care to venture a guess of what kind of mode KW has this team in right now. He signs Danks for 5 years but dumps TCQ for nothing. Where are the trades for MLB ready players? So are we in a rebuilding phase or a tweaking phase. I go with tweaking because of Dunn and Rios with their big contracts, how can you rebuild with those 2 hanging around plus we still have PK, AJ, TCM, Floyd and others. I'm a little bewildered right now.

DirtySox
01-01-2012, 08:31 PM
Where are the trades for MLB ready players?

Hard to trade for decent MLB ready players when the assets you have aren't all that valuable.

soxinem1
01-01-2012, 08:38 PM
Hard to trade for decent MLB ready players when the assets you have aren't all that valuable.

A point that has to be stressed all too often... Unless people want Sale, PK, Floyd, or TCM traded.

Thome25
01-01-2012, 08:50 PM
Traded Quentin for nothing? Really? Seriously?!

Why is there such a tendency on these boards to vastly overvalue players that we give up in trades? Based on the reactions on these boards, you would think that every time we trade a pitcher, we just gave up Cy Young or Sandy Koufax. Or if we trade a position player, we gave up Willie Mays or Frank Thomas.

Quentin isn't Pujols, Fielder, or Reyes. I.E. he wasn't very valuable. He's an up and down, hot and cold oft injured outfielder who's arbitration eligibility runs out after this coming season.

You're right KW should've traded Quentin for all of San Diego's starting position players. :rolleyes:

The trade was about right. KW got more than a fair return for TCQ.

LITTLE NELL
01-01-2012, 08:56 PM
Traded Quentin for nothing? Really? Seriously?!

Why is there such a tendency on these boards to vastly overvalue players that we give up in trades? Based on the reactions on these boards, you would think that every time we trade a pitcher, we just gave up Cy Young or Sandy Koufax. Or if we trade a position player, we gave up Willie Mays or Frank Thomas.

Quentin isn't Pujols, Fielder, or Reyes. I.E. he wasn't very valuable. He's an up and down, hot and cold oft injured outfielder who's arbitration eligibility runs out after this coming season.

You're right KW should've traded Quentin for all of San Diego's starting position players. :rolleyes:

The trade was about right. KW got more than a fair return for TCQ.

TCQ in the 4 years with us averaged 27 HRs and 80 RBIs, he's got to be worth more than the 2 guys we got for him.

Thome25
01-01-2012, 09:05 PM
TCQ in the 4 years with us averaged 27 HRs and 80 RBIs, he's got to be worth more than the 2 guys we got for him.

His numbers were good but not spectacular. He was a "very hot and cold" type of player. Going back to his days with both Arizona and the Sox, he was injured alot.

There was a strong likelyhood that whichever team traded for him was only going to have him for his last arbitration-eligible year.

Combine all of these issues and the reality that teams no longer give up major-league ready talent or high end prospects for rent-a-players and the Sox got a fair deal for him.

SI1020
01-01-2012, 09:14 PM
His numbers were good but not spectacular. He was a "very hot and cold" type of player. Going back to his days with both Arizona and the Sox, he was injured alot.

There was a strong likelyhood that whichever team traded for him was only going to have him for his last arbitration-eligible year.

Combine all of these issues and the reality that teams no longer give up major-league ready talent or high end prospects for rent-a-players and the Sox got a fair deal for him. In your world not mine.

doublem23
01-01-2012, 09:21 PM
So you guys actually believe KW was getting all these great offers for TCQ but he just wanted to help out the Padres for no particular reason?

Viva Medias B's
01-01-2012, 09:46 PM
I do not know what KW is doing; sometimes I wonder if KW knows what KW is doing.

WhiteSox5187
01-01-2012, 09:47 PM
So you guys actually believe KW was getting all these great offers for TCQ but he just wanted to help out the Padres for no particular reason?

The only real objection that can be made to the Quentin trade was that had it been made at the deadline they could have gotten more. The White Sox were in the same spot then that they are now but Kenny didn't pull the trigger.

Frater Perdurabo
01-01-2012, 10:10 PM
If you read this is a defense of KW, you are wrong. Nevertheless...

Who here in July 2011 would have approved KW "white flagging it" by trading Quentin on July 31, when the Sox were 3.0 games out of first place?

The Sox had been 11.0 back on May 7, but closed the gap to 3.0 on July 29.

The Rear View Mirror Nostradamuses who today say KW should have folded and sold at the trade deadline are the same folks who would have been screaming about White Flag II had he actually done so.

:rolleyes:

DumpJerry
01-01-2012, 10:10 PM
So you guys actually believe KW was getting all these great offers for TCQ but he just wanted to help out the Padres for no particular reason?
Well, considering the fact that KW consults with WSI several times a day before making a move, I think we all know he was helping out the Padres. After all, he told us how the Tigers offered Verlander straight up for TCQ and were willing to pay Verlander's contract because Cabrera's jealousy was going to cause problems in the clubhouse. Kenny said no to the deal because he wanted TCQ out of the AL in case we faced him during one of his occasional hot streaks.

DirtySox
01-01-2012, 10:25 PM
Who here in July 2011 would have approved KW "white flagging it" by trading Quentin on July 31, when the Sox were 3.0 games out of first place?

:rolleyes:

Me. I posted as such. But I'm a cynical dark cloud. Results not typical. :dunno:

Frater Perdurabo
01-01-2012, 10:53 PM
Me. I posted as such. But I'm a cynical dark cloud. Results not typical. :dunno:

If so, I admire your guts. :smile:

A. Cavatica
01-01-2012, 10:53 PM
If you read this is a defense of KW, you are wrong. Nevertheless...

Who here in July 2011 would have approved KW "white flagging it" by trading Quentin on July 31, when the Sox were 3.0 games out of first place?

The Sox had been 11.0 back on May 7, but closed the gap to 3.0 on July 29.

The Rear View Mirror Nostradamuses who today say KW should have folded and sold at the trade deadline are the same folks who would have been screaming about White Flag II had he actually done so.

:rolleyes:

Well, I was never in favor of trading Quentin, but on July 30 I was begging for KW to blow this team up. In fact, I predicted the deadline would pass and the Sox would immediately go on a six-game losing streak -- which of course they proceeded to do.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2803163&postcount=206

As I posted on 8/4, "In this case, not cleaning house was raising the white flag."

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2806435&postcount=60

Noneck
01-01-2012, 11:06 PM
So you guys actually believe KW was getting all these great offers for TCQ but he just wanted to help out the Padres for no particular reason?

I dont know what others think but to me its not what Williams got, it is that Quentin is worth more to the team now than what was obtained. I also think the return for Quentin at mid year would be similar to what they got now. This was a salary dump plain and simple. If it is treated like that, I understand it but do not agree with it.

doublem23
01-01-2012, 11:47 PM
The only real objection that can be made to the Quentin trade was that had it been made at the deadline they could have gotten more. The White Sox were in the same spot then that they are now but Kenny didn't pull the trigger.

This is assuming that Quentin has a great 1st half and not one of the all too characteristic "slow" halves he has been know to have.

The Sox need to dump some salary. Quentin's spot is easily filled from within the organization. I don't really understand what people don't get about this move.

doublem23
01-01-2012, 11:48 PM
Well, I was never in favor of trading Quentin, but on July 30 I was begging for KW to blow this team up. In fact, I predicted the deadline would pass and the Sox would immediately go on a six-game losing streak -- which of course they proceeded to do.

I hope you bought a lottery ticket that day and cashed in on getting super lucky.

Noneck
01-01-2012, 11:57 PM
Quentin's spot is easily filled from within the organization.

Easily filled? Filled with somebody that plays his position ,yes, but one that can put up similar numbers and field as well as Quentin did? That has in no way been determined yet.

doublem23
01-02-2012, 12:03 AM
Easily filled? Filled with somebody that plays his position ,yes, but one that can put up similar numbers and field as well as Quentin did? That has in no way been determined yet.

In the past three years, Quentin missed almost 140 games and hit .245/.336/.479. I remember the good times with TCQ, too, when he could carry a team but unfortunately, those turned out to be the exceptions and not the rule with Carlos.

We've invested $10 M in Dayan. Time to see if he's a keeper or bust.

BainesHOF
01-02-2012, 12:26 AM
I don't know what Williams is doing either. Of course we need to rebuild, but that doesn't appear to be what we're doing. We're dumping salary, but I don't think we're receiving much building material. We're trading proven Major Leaguers for mediocre minor leaguers. I don't see how this builds the team in any meaningful way. If the first part of our rebuilding is merely dumping salary, then why give Danks a fat, long-term contract out of the blue. The guy is below .500 in his career. (Has anyone in the history of baseball gotten beat more on his changeup?) This is the kind of contract that has put the organization is its current bad position.

There doesn't seem to be any vision in the organization. Everything seems to be done in a reactionary manner out of weakness. I've been a big supporter of Williams in the past. After this past season, I felt considerably different about him, though I was still OK with keeping him in charge albeit with some severe reservations, most notably concerning the state of our minor-league system. However, this offseason has been pretty pathetic. He seems to be flailing. It's not pretty.

TaylorStSox
01-02-2012, 12:32 AM
I'm not sure what people want. How do you acquire high level prospects without valuable assets? We're obviously stockpiling minor league pitching. How good is it? I don't know. I've never seen any of these guys pitch. Based on reports and what I have seen, a future rotation including Danks, Sale, Humber, Molina and Stewart could be very good.

What else would you all like to see our GM do?

Noneck
01-02-2012, 12:46 AM
We've invested $10 M in Dayan. Time to see if he's a keeper or bust.

$10M is a lot of money with zero return so far. I understand this is the last year to see if he can play or not but I think that could have been accomplished without dumping Quentin at this stage. Replacing a 25HR, 75RBI guy is not as easy to do as one thinks.

DirtySox
01-02-2012, 12:53 AM
$10M is a lot of money with zero return so far. I understand this is the last year to see if he can play or not but I think that could have been accomplished without dumping Quentin at this stage. Replacing a 25HR, 75RBI guy is not as easy to do as one thinks.

What do you mean the last year to see if he can play or not?

Noneck
01-02-2012, 12:57 AM
What do you mean the last year to see if he can play or not?

The last year he is under contract and the ability to not throw any more good money after the bad.

TaylorStSox
01-02-2012, 12:58 AM
What do you mean the last year to see if he can play or not?


22 is the age limit on all prospects. Nobody can develop if they haven't produced by that point. I hope teal wasn't needed here.

DirtySox
01-02-2012, 01:04 AM
The last year he is under contract and the ability to not throw any more good money after the bad.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Dayan is still under team control for a while. He signed a 4 year $10 million deal that ends, but he doesn't even have a year of service time yet. Next year like any other pre-arbitration player, his salary cannot be less than 80% of his prior year salary. So the Sox are only obligated to pay him around $2 million a year until he's arbitration eligible.

Noneck
01-02-2012, 01:14 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Dayan is still under team control for a while. He signed a 4 year $10 million deal that ends, but he doesn't even have a year of service time yet. Next year like any other pre-arbitration player, his salary cannot be less than 80% of his prior year salary. So the Sox are only obligated to pay him around $2 million a year until he's arbitration eligible.

The point I am making is that I think he will be a bust and the Sox dont have any obligation to him after this year. In my eyes 2M is a lot of money for a guy to fill a roster spot who cant field and probably wont be much of a hitter either and on a team where the DH spot is locked up for 3 more years.

DirtySox
01-02-2012, 01:16 AM
The point I am making is that I think he will be a bust and the Sox dont have any obligation to him after this year. In my eyes 2M is a lot of money for a guy to fill a roster spot who cant field and probably wont be much of a hitter either.

Ah. I understand now. I don't think much at all of his defense, but I think the bat will be more than adequate. To each their own though.

LoveYourSuit
01-02-2012, 03:39 AM
$10M is a lot of money with zero return so far. I understand this is the last year to see if he can play or not but I think that could have been accomplished without dumping Quentin at this stage. Replacing a 25HR, 75RBI guy is not as easy to do as one thinks.


There are 7 million reasons to dump Quentin.

And replacing a 25HR 78 RBI corner OF with no arm, average defense, and often injured is not that big of deal.


Also, can I ask you how the Sox would find playing time for Viciedo without getting rid of Quentin as you mentioned?

gobears1987
01-02-2012, 03:40 AM
I have a lot of problems with KW and want him gone, but the TCQ deal was one of his few recent moves that made sense.

doublem23
01-02-2012, 03:53 AM
I have a lot of problems with KW and want him gone, but the TCQ deal was one of his few recent moves that made sense.

I still cannot figure out what moves don't make sense to people. The Sox let their oldest SP go, used that money to lock up one of their younger, better SP before he hit the market, dealt a COF when they have a ready replacement in-house, and dealt their 29-year-old closer (the bullpen being a position of strength with another young arm ready to jump in the mix) for a prospect who is falls somewhere between average and elite depending on who you ask.

The only people who don't seem to think this plan makes any sense are the psychos who actually think the Sox would be better served completely carving up the team and punting the next 2-3 seasons to the tune of 60-ish wins. Thankfully, those insane maniacs do not have a voice in the Sox front office.

Thome25
01-02-2012, 08:16 AM
I still cannot figure out what moves don't make sense to people. The Sox let their oldest SP go, used that money to lock up one of their younger, better SP before he hit the market, dealt a COF when they have a ready replacement in-house, and dealt their 29-year-old closer (the bullpen being a position of strength with another young arm ready to jump in the mix) for a prospect who is falls somewhere between average and elite depending on who you ask.

The only people who don't seem to think this plan makes any sense are the psychos who actually think the Sox would be better served completely carving up the team and punting the next 2-3 seasons to the tune of 60-ish wins. Thankfully, those insane maniacs do not have a voice in the Sox front office.

I used to be one of the "psychos' who thought that blowing the team up was a good idea. :tongue:

Then I saw the light and realized that that was the absolute wrong thing to do with this team. So far, they are headed in the right direction with player moves and doub's post above is the perfect explanation why.

With that said, I AM NOT a fan of KW and I wish that he would've been shown the door along with a certain former manager.

Noneck
01-02-2012, 09:28 AM
There are 7 million reasons to dump Quentin.

And replacing a 25HR 78 RBI corner OF with no arm, average defense, and often injured is not that big of deal.


Also, can I ask you how the Sox would find playing time for Viciedo without getting rid of Quentin as you mentioned?

It really doesnt have to be 7M, if things dont go right he should be able to be dumped at mid season so its more like 3.5M.

Normally a 25-75 guy shouldnt be a big deal for a corner outfielder but I dont see one on this club.

Since the Sox dont value defense, he can play LF along with some DH, some 1B when PK has a day off, some RF when Carlos got a day off and even some 3B. This can be done until they see he is not a MLB player and is just a part time DH, which is not needed on this team.

balke
01-02-2012, 10:03 AM
The only people who don't seem to think this plan makes any sense are the psychos who actually think the Sox would be better served completely carving up the team and punting the next 2-3 seasons to the tune of 60-ish wins. Thankfully, those insane maniacs do not have a voice in the Sox front office.

Meh, overstatement. Right now the Sox have players with immovable salary. It's not like Kenny wouldn't move Peavy for little to no return if he could. He'd do the same with Rios.

That's the only way to truly "gut" the team. Also, they'd probably have to move AJ in the next year or so after they find a young replacement and let PK walk if he asks for too much money when his contract is up.

This team is in full rebuild mode and will cut when possible. Right now there are just some cuts that aren't possible. The only moves they will make will be moves that affect the future team and save them money. Young signings that can grow with Beckham, Danks, Alexei, Tank and possibly Morel if he develops a bit more.

I'm of the belief that carving up this team wouldn't make much of a difference in the win/loss record. This team is already really bad with players who are past their prime.

I have no problem with what Kenny is doing though. No need for a bullpen when your offense can't give a lead worth holding onto. Get younger arms that can fill the pen and grow. No need for TCQ when you've already put all your faith in Tank to be the power outfielder with poor range - and your manager is okay playing Dunn in the field on a regular basis turning the defense into a complete circus act.

SI1020
01-02-2012, 11:05 AM
I don't know what Williams is doing either. Of course we need to rebuild, but that doesn't appear to be what we're doing. We're dumping salary, but I don't think we're receiving much building material. We're trading proven Major Leaguers for mediocre minor leaguers. I don't see how this builds the team in any meaningful way. If the first part of our rebuilding is merely dumping salary, then why give Danks a fat, long-term contract out of the blue. The guy is below .500 in his career. (Has anyone in the history of baseball gotten beat more on his changeup?) This is the kind of contract that has put the organization is its current bad position.

There doesn't seem to be any vision in the organization. Everything seems to be done in a reactionary manner out of weakness. I've been a big supporter of Williams in the past. After this past season, I felt considerably different about him, though I was still OK with keeping him in charge albeit with some severe reservations, most notably concerning the state of our minor-league system. However, this offseason has been pretty pathetic. He seems to be flailing. It's not pretty. Excellent. I wish I had posted it this well. Why is such a line of thinking subject to so much criticism here?

KMcMahon817
01-02-2012, 11:19 AM
If you read this is a defense of KW, you are wrong. Nevertheless...

Who here in July 2011 would have approved KW "white flagging it" by trading Quentin on July 31, when the Sox were 3.0 games out of first place?

The Sox had been 11.0 back on May 7, but closed the gap to 3.0 on July 29.

The Rear View Mirror Nostradamuses who today say KW should have folded and sold at the trade deadline are the same folks who would have been screaming about White Flag II had he actually done so.


Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

balke
01-02-2012, 11:42 AM
If you read this is a defense of KW, you are wrong. Nevertheless...

Who here in July 2011 would have approved KW "white flagging it" by trading Quentin on July 31, when the Sox were 3.0 games out of first place?

The Sox had been 11.0 back on May 7, but closed the gap to 3.0 on July 29.

The Rear View Mirror Nostradamuses who today say KW should have folded and sold at the trade deadline are the same folks who would have been screaming about White Flag II had he actually done so.

:rolleyes:


The Sox went into the All-Star Break losing 6 games straight at home to the Minnesota Twins and Kansas City Royals. It was time to blow it up then.

This team had zero consistency and zero chemistry. TCQ should've been sent packing as a statement that the organization was unhappy with the performance of the players - because the talent was there to win.

LITTLE NELL
01-02-2012, 12:41 PM
I don't know what Williams is doing either. Of course we need to rebuild, but that doesn't appear to be what we're doing. We're dumping salary, but I don't think we're receiving much building material. We're trading proven Major Leaguers for mediocre minor leaguers. I don't see how this builds the team in any meaningful way. If the first part of our rebuilding is merely dumping salary, then why give Danks a fat, long-term contract out of the blue. The guy is below .500 in his career. (Has anyone in the history of baseball gotten beat more on his changeup?) This is the kind of contract that has put the organization is its current bad position.

There doesn't seem to be any vision in the organization. Everything seems to be done in a reactionary manner out of weakness. I've been a big supporter of Williams in the past. After this past season, I felt considerably different about him, though I was still OK with keeping him in charge albeit with some severe reservations, most notably concerning the state of our minor-league system. However, this offseason has been pretty pathetic. He seems to be flailing. It's not pretty.

You hit the nail on the head.

Bucky F. Dent
01-02-2012, 12:57 PM
Fangraphs posted a story this morning on the Sox contract situation through 2014. It's a fairly painful read:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/white-sox-are-stuck-in-the-middle/

DirtySox
01-02-2012, 01:02 PM
Fangraphs posted a story this morning on the Sox contract situation through 2014. It's a fairly painful read:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/white-sox-are-stuck-in-the-middle/

Jim's take is quite similar.

http://www.southsidesox.com/2012/1/2/2675936/clearer-offseason-picture-emerges-after-trading-quentin-frasor

34rancher
01-02-2012, 01:45 PM
If you read this is a defense of KW, you are wrong. Nevertheless...

Who here in July 2011 would have approved KW "white flagging it" by trading Quentin on July 31, when the Sox were 3.0 games out of first place?

The Sox had been 11.0 back on May 7, but closed the gap to 3.0 on July 29.

The Rear View Mirror Nostradamuses who today say KW should have folded and sold at the trade deadline are the same folks who would have been screaming about White Flag II had he actually done so.

:rolleyes:

I agree with you. I would have been pissed off at trading Quentin then, even though in hindsight it would have been the right thing to do. No as pissed as I was (and still am) at the signing of the illusionary vortex of a DH we signed (might go down as my least favorite acquisition of all sports all time), but I'd been frustrated beyond belief, unless it was done at someone obviously going to be a star. I hated the peavy trade, but I was excited at the Rios acquisition. None have panned out though.
Just as long as our manager doesn't want to name his dog DH because of how lazy the dog is, I'm willing to wait and see what these moves meant for KW.

TDog
01-02-2012, 01:48 PM
The Sox went into the All-Star Break losing 6 games straight at home to the Minnesota Twins and Kansas City Royals. It was time to blow it up then.

This team had zero consistency and zero chemistry. TCQ should've been sent packing as a statement that the organization was unhappy with the performance of the players - because the talent was there to win.


Is it possible to "blow it up" with this team? Three players players on the team with hefty contracts that can't be jettisoned were among the most disappointing, and at least two were key factors in the lack of consistency and what appeared to be zero consistency. Those players aren't going anywhere. The Sox continued to pay a huge chunk of Linebrink's 2011 salary to rid him from the team, but big bad contracts remaining dwarf Linebrink's.

And even if you did blow up the team, with or without the players who are paid substantially because of the promise they held that has gone unfulfilled, you are farther away from contending. Winning teams, with very few exceptions, are not the ones that "blew it up."

You can trade your best players, your proven players, players that have produced in the silver and black, for prospects, but most prospects don't develop into the stars they project to be. You could lose so many games that you might even get the No. 1 draft pick, but it will cost you more than Dayan Viciedo, and the potential will probably be less.

It's easy to say "blow it up," but you are likely only left with subsequent complaining that the Sox didn't get enough for their veterans (because most fans don't understand trade value -- rumors tend to exaggerate) or they didn't rebuild correctly when the team is mired in dark, losing years. When you are rebuilding from scratch, the odds are stacked heavily against you.

In a very real sense, Kenny Williams is rebuilding. I don't know what the end product will be. I know there are things I would do differently. I am disappointed they lost Buehrle and Quentin. But I know the White Sox will be better off than if he just "blowed it up."

balke
01-02-2012, 03:00 PM
Is it possible to "blow it up" with this team?

In a very real sense, Kenny Williams is rebuilding. I am disappointed they lost Buehrle and Quentin. But I know the White Sox will be better off than if he just "blowed it up."

This is "blowing it up" which is essentially a rebuild. It'll be a multi-year process. And yeah you are right they can't fully do it because of bad contracts - but the best pitcher, closer, and 2nd most productive bat on the team have left. There have been no major additions - and if there are any they will be young so they can grow.

The second anyone is willing to make an offer for Jake or Dunn or Rios or AJ - they too will be gone. PK will remain - because he is the face of the organization now and a person who earns his salary regardless of what the scoreboard or standings show. But I doubt even PK will be back for another contract unless the team does surprise everyone and start winning the next couple of seasons.

Whatever you want to call it - (Blowing it up or rebuild) the fat will be trimmed and veterans will not be signed. The clock is ticking on the vets who are remaining.

I am all for this. Cut as many as you can and use their salaries for youth. I'd pay more to see new players and be more motivated to go to the park if there was any promise of the Sox growing as a team for the next few years.

Brian26
01-02-2012, 03:16 PM
Fangraphs posted a story this morning on the Sox contract situation through 2014. It's a fairly painful read:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/white-sox-are-stuck-in-the-middle/

Yep, saw this on Twitter today and read the article. This is just depressing as hell, but the bottom line is the Sox, even after all of the trades so far, have close to $90 million tied into 10 or 11 players through 2012 and $80 million into 2013.

Brian26
01-02-2012, 03:23 PM
Most teams can absorb one bad contract, but the Sox are saddled with three albatross contracts now with Peavy, Rios and Dunn. Its sickening when you see it spelled out. I think Peavy is set to make more money next year than Pujols ($17 million vs $16 mill).

TDog
01-02-2012, 03:28 PM
This is "blowing it up" which is essentially a rebuild. It'll be a multi-year process. And yeah you are right they can't fully do it because of bad contracts - but the best pitcher, closer, and 2nd most productive bat on the team have left. There have been no major additions - and if there are any they will be young so they can grow.

The second anyone is willing to make an offer for Jake or Dunn or Rios or AJ - they too will be gone. PK will remain - because he is the face of the organization now and a person who earns his salary regardless of what the scoreboard or standings show. But I doubt even PK will be back for another contract unless the team does surprise everyone and start winning the next couple of seasons.

Whatever you want to call it - (Blowing it up or rebuild) the fat will be trimmed and veterans will not be signed. The clock is ticking on the vets who are remaining.

I am all for this. Cut as many as you can and use their salaries for youth. I'd pay more to see new players and be more motivated to go to the park if there was any promise of the Sox growing as a team for the next few years.

Trading Santos has nothing to do rebuilding. He was a worse closer in September than Thornton was in April. Having some success as a closer probably inflated his value in trade, but he had not established himself as a closer, except during a stretch of the 2011 season. The definition of "established closer" seems flexible.

Santos wasn't a veteran. He was an inexperienced reliever with great stuff going into his third major league season, despite turning 28 last summer. Scouts, however, do like the fact that he has little mileage on his arm. Danks is more a veteran than Santos, although he's two years younger, and Danks was signed to a long deal.

I don't see the Sox purging their team of veterans. Quentin was more a victim of circumstance than direction. Frankly, I would be surprised if Konerko finishes his career with another team, although since before the 2005 season a segment of Sox fans have been saying he was as good as gone. I also would not be surprised if Buehrle finishes his career with the Sox.

tstrike2000
01-02-2012, 03:32 PM
Most teams can absorb one bad contract, but the Sox are saddled with three albatross contracts now with Peavy, Rios and Dunn. Its sickening when you see it spelled out. I think Peavy is set to make more money next year than Pujols ($17 million vs $16 mill).

Wonderful.

LoveYourSuit
01-02-2012, 03:35 PM
Most teams can absorb one bad contract, but the Sox are saddled with three albatross contracts now with Peavy, Rios and Dunn. Its sickening when you see it spelled out. I think Peavy is set to make more money next year than Pujols ($17 million vs $16 mill).


At the same time if all 3 of those guys peform at an average level (not great) last year we win that division.

Broccoli Rob
01-02-2012, 03:41 PM
So you guys actually believe KW was getting all these great offers for TCQ but he just wanted to help out the Padres for no particular reason?

Why did KW have to trade Quentin right now? What if Quentin got really hot, as he's known to do, at the beginning of 2012? Would his value increase?

LoveYourSuit
01-02-2012, 03:46 PM
Why did KW have to trade Quentin right now? What if Quentin got really hot, as he's known to do, at the beginning of 2012? Would his value increase?

The Sox don't have $7 million to throw at "what if" scenarios at this point.

Broccoli Rob
01-02-2012, 03:52 PM
The Sox don't have $7 million to throw at "what if" scenarios at this point.

In that case they are just dumping Quentin to dump Quentin. Based on the players the White Sox got in return, that's exactly what they did. Quentin has more value if he's hot.

And as a fan, I do think they can afford to wait it out and see if they can get a better return. To me it just looks like a cheap, hopeless move. Not that they are planning to sell tickets this year, anyway.

34rancher
01-02-2012, 04:05 PM
Most teams can absorb one bad contract, but the Sox are saddled with three albatross contracts now with Peavy, Rios and Dunn. Its sickening when you see it spelled out. I think Peavy is set to make more money next year than Pujols ($17 million vs $16 mill).

It's almost as if KW got jealous at the cubs for the press on signing dumb and ridiculous contracts.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-02-2012, 04:06 PM
I do not know what KW is doing; sometimes I wonder if KW knows what KW is doing.

The problem is that KW thinks he knows what he is doing and there are no checks and balances in place.

JR clearly has no idea what KW is doing and oblivious to the fact that he should have pulled the plug on KW years ago.

Unfortunately, only JR can fix the mess of KW, so we are simply bewildered at what has transpired and angry, very angry.

Brian26
01-02-2012, 04:14 PM
Most teams can absorb one bad contract, but the Sox are saddled with three albatross contracts now with Peavy, Rios and Dunn. Its sickening when you see it spelled out. I think Peavy is set to make more money next year than Pujols ($17 million vs $16 mill).

Correction: Pujols makes $12 million in 2012 and $16 million in 2013 before the contract explodes. Peavy makes $17 million next year before the he-gawn $4 million Sox buyout for 2013.

balke
01-02-2012, 04:16 PM
Trading Santos has nothing to do rebuilding.

"This is the start of a rebuilding," White Sox GM Kenny Williams told reporters today.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-sox-send-closer-santo-to-jays-for-pitcher-molina-20111206,0,2614571.story

thomas35forever
01-02-2012, 04:29 PM
"This is the start of a rebuilding," White Sox GM Kenny Williams told reporters today.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-sox-send-closer-santo-to-jays-for-pitcher-molina-20111206,0,2614571.story
Yeah, it had more leverage before Danks was re-signed.

shingo10
01-02-2012, 04:30 PM
I've never been more embarassed to be a White Sox fan.

Kenny Williams is and will be the GM for the foreseeable future.

DEAL WITH IT.

Not every move he makes is a good one. But not every move he makes is a bad one either.

The fanbase wanted Ozzie out and that wish was granted. Then immediately they find the next thing to complain about. At least wait till they play a freaking game and some of these prospects we got have a chance to play.

It's getting beyond ridiculous how whiney our fanbase has become.

balke
01-02-2012, 04:33 PM
Yeah, it had more leverage before Danks was re-signed.

Danks resigned means he's easier to trade. Even if they don't trade him - a good young pitcher gets locked down.

Rebuilding doesn't mean letting go of every piece you have - it means building for the future 2013-2015.

kittle42
01-02-2012, 04:55 PM
I've never been more embarassed to be a White Sox fan.

Kenny Williams is and will be the GM for the foreseeable future.

DEAL WITH IT.

Not every move he makes is a good one. But not every move he makes is a bad one either.

The fanbase wanted Ozzie out and that wish was granted. Then immediately they find the next thing to complain about. At least wait till they play a freaking game and some of these prospects we got have a chance to play.

It's getting beyond ridiculous how whiney our fanbase has become.

Some of us wanted both of them gone.

SI1020
01-02-2012, 05:41 PM
I've never been more embarassed to be a White Sox fan.

Kenny Williams is and will be the GM for the foreseeable future.

DEAL WITH IT.

Not every move he makes is a good one. But not every move he makes is a bad one either.

The fanbase wanted Ozzie out and that wish was granted. Then immediately they find the next thing to complain about. At least wait till they play a freaking game and some of these prospects we got have a chance to play.

It's getting beyond ridiculous how whiney our fanbase has become. The modern day philosophy of if I don't agree with your position then you're a whiner. It's a great substitute for honest debate. I hope you get over your embarrassment.

KyWhiSoxFan
01-02-2012, 05:44 PM
I've never been more embarassed to be a White Sox fan.

Kenny Williams is and will be the GM for the foreseeable future.

DEAL WITH IT.

Not every move he makes is a good one. But not every move he makes is a bad one either.

The fanbase wanted Ozzie out and that wish was granted. Then immediately they find the next thing to complain about. At least wait till they play a freaking game and some of these prospects we got have a chance to play.

It's getting beyond ridiculous how whiney our fanbase has become.

Being a White Sox fan and being a fan of any individual player or person in management are mutually exclusive. They have nothing to do with one another.

Just because you're a Sox fan does not mean you have to like every player or every decision made by management or a manager, or even half of them. This is not a quota system.

In fact, it is the strength of being a fan that allows a person to continue to be a fan despite bad players, bad managers, or bad management. The real fans will still here next year and ten years from now, and the bad players, managers, and management will be gone (hopefully).

LITTLE NELL
01-02-2012, 05:48 PM
I've never been more embarassed to be a White Sox fan.

Kenny Williams is and will be the GM for the foreseeable future.

DEAL WITH IT.

Not every move he makes is a good one. But not every move he makes is a bad one either.

The fanbase wanted Ozzie out and that wish was granted. Then immediately they find the next thing to complain about. At least wait till they play a freaking game and some of these prospects we got have a chance to play.

It's getting beyond ridiculous how whiney our fanbase has become.

You must have not been around for the 68-69-70 seasons.

shingo10
01-02-2012, 07:04 PM
You must have not been around for the 68-69-70 seasons.


Not being a wise guy here but I really wasn't born yet for those seasons. But I will trust you that times were bad.

shingo10
01-02-2012, 07:07 PM
The modern day philosophy of if I don't agree with your position then you're a whiner. It's a great substitute for honest debate. I hope you get over your embarrassment.


I think an honest debate is fine but it has gotten to the point know where it seems that everything this organization does causes a negative reaction. At some point there should be some contentment that at least the organization gives a damn.

soxtalker
01-02-2012, 07:09 PM
I've been a Sox fan for a long time, starting around 1960, so this is far from the worst situation in which I've seen the team. But it isn't great.

I guess that I'm fairly pleased with the trades, as my impression is that this is the sort of trade that KW excels at -- picking up young players in other teams' farm systems. When he tries to pick up experienced players -- whether it be top-of-the-line talent like Dunn or Peavy or even lesser major league talent like Teahan -- it just hasn't worked out as well. Now, he doesn't always succeed with the minor league guys either, but there's a lot less riding on any single player. I still remember Todd Richie from early in KW's tenure; it wasn't just the initial cost, but IIRC we had to hang onto him for a long time to see if he could turn it around.

shingo10
01-02-2012, 07:09 PM
Being a White Sox fan and being a fan of any individual player or person in management are mutually exclusive. They have nothing to do with one another.

Just because you're a Sox fan does not mean you have to like every player or every decision made by management or a manager, or even half of them. This is not a quota system.

In fact, it is the strength of being a fan that allows a person to continue to be a fan despite bad players, bad managers, or bad management. The real fans will still here next year and ten years from now, and the bad players, managers, and management will be gone (hopefully).

I agree with most of this. I'm just tired of all the gloom and doom after every single thing this organization does.

Broccoli Rob
01-02-2012, 07:22 PM
Yeah, we'll "deal with it" by not paying money to go to the games. Well played, White Sox!

russ99
01-02-2012, 07:50 PM
Quentin's career numbers even with 2008 are remarkably close to Jack Cust.

So would you trade Jack Cust (making $6.5-7M) with one season to go before free agency for those two pitchers? I would.

I like what Kenny is doing. We have no flexibility with Dunn, Rios and Peavy's contracts, so he's trimming players that we have at least a young replacement, and cutting payroll now to get much more flexibility on player additions later. These moves are for 2013-2014, and not 2012.

Saufley
01-02-2012, 07:59 PM
After watching KW this offseason, White Sox fans have good reason to be whiney! In KW we trust???

delben91
01-02-2012, 10:17 PM
I don't know what Williams is doing either. Of course we need to rebuild, but that doesn't appear to be what we're doing. We're dumping salary, but I don't think we're receiving much building material. We're trading proven Major Leaguers for mediocre minor leaguers. I don't see how this builds the team in any meaningful way. If the first part of our rebuilding is merely dumping salary, then why give Danks a fat, long-term contract out of the blue. The guy is below .500 in his career. (Has anyone in the history of baseball gotten beat more on his changeup?) This is the kind of contract that has put the organization is its current bad position.

There doesn't seem to be any vision in the organization. Everything seems to be done in a reactionary manner out of weakness. I've been a big supporter of Williams in the past. After this past season, I felt considerably different about him, though I was still OK with keeping him in charge albeit with some severe reservations, most notably concerning the state of our minor-league system. However, this offseason has been pretty pathetic. He seems to be flailing. It's not pretty.

Excellent. I wish I had posted it this well. Why is such a line of thinking subject to so much criticism here?

You hit the nail on the head.

Have each of you seen these minor leaguers play and know for a fact they will never amount to anything? I'm not saying they will, but to say with 100% certainty that they're all of no potential before seeing them play a single game in the Sox system...well...that seems reactionary to me... Maybe these are the players that will lead the wave of vastly improving the state of the minor-league system. Maybe not, but I don't know for sure right now so I'm not going to vilify the guy.

Also, I'm assuming you're all also in agreement that extending Danks was a waste?

But what the hell do I know.

Thome25
01-02-2012, 10:34 PM
I've never been more embarassed to be a White Sox fan.

Kenny Williams is and will be the GM for the foreseeable future.

DEAL WITH IT.

Not every move he makes is a good one. But not every move he makes is a bad one either.

The fanbase wanted Ozzie out and that wish was granted. Then immediately they find the next thing to complain about. At least wait till they play a freaking game and some of these prospects we got have a chance to play.

It's getting beyond ridiculous how whiney our fanbase has become.

I've never been more embarrassed of a post here at WSI.

You're ****ing right all KW has done the last 3-4 years is **** up in his signings and trades but we should all kiss his ****ing ass because he is the almighty KW. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Most GMs would have been fired for HALF the **** he has pulled in the last several seasons and the only reason he has a ****ing job is because of Jerry Reinsdorf's loyalty bull****.

Get a ****ing clue...please.

Thome25
01-02-2012, 10:54 PM
While I don't agree with the OP, (I think the Santos, Quentin, and Frasor trades and the decision not to re-sign Buehrle and to ink Danks to a long term contract were the right moves.) KW has handicapped this team for the next several years to come.

KW AND Ozzie should have been let go this offseason. For those keeping track at home, here are some of the awesome deals KW has made during the last several years:

Swisher TWICE (the trade to acquire him and then the trade to the Yanks were BOTH HORRIBLE.)
Teahen (he should be dinged twice for this one because he traded for "Babe Teahen" and then decided it was a good idea to give him a contract for 5 mil per.)
Peavy
Rios
Dunn
EJAX TWICE (Trading Hudson for him was bad enough but then trading him to the Jays for nothing and than watching them ship him to StL for Rasmus hurts even worse.)

By making some of the moves above, he gutted a farm system (which he helped build.) that was horrible before these trades.

As I said above most GMs would've been fired for half of this ****. But, I'm still scratching my head :scratch: trying to figure out why KW is still employed by the White Sox.

doublem23
01-02-2012, 11:42 PM
Why did KW have to trade Quentin right now? What if Quentin got really hot, as he's known to do, at the beginning of 2012? Would his value increase?

Because that's money the Sox don't have and really, at this point, it's more important for Sox long-term to give Dayan regular playing time and find out what he's got; the alternative to TCQ playing lights out is that he starts the year in a total funk, bombs out what little trade value he clearly had, and Viciedo is stuck in Charlotte for 3/4 of the year and the Sox have no real performance to evaluate him now that his first pro contract will be up at the end of the year.

I know we all want to believe that the 2008 TCQ is the real Quentin, but we haven't seen that guy much of the last three years.

doublem23
01-02-2012, 11:48 PM
Have each of you seen these minor leaguers play and know for a fact they will never amount to anything? I'm not saying they will, but to say with 100% certainty that they're all of no potential before seeing them play a single game in the Sox system...well...that seems reactionary to me... Maybe these are the players that will lead the wave of vastly improving the state of the minor-league system. Maybe not, but I don't know for sure right now so I'm not going to vilify the guy.

Also, I'm assuming you're all also in agreement that extending Danks was a waste?

But what the hell do I know.

I should point out that I don't have any problem with people who think the return the Sox are fetching is kind of "meh." I don't really have time to follow every team's farm system and know their players inside and out so I'll just have to be kind of play the wait and see game. I just don't see how people can say that there's no plan with this; the plan is obvious, the execution, well, that's up for debate.

Daver
01-03-2012, 12:32 AM
I know we all want to believe that the 2008 TCQ is the real Quentin, but we haven't seen that guy much of the last three years.


It also shows that the guy they are replacing him with has even less value, despite being 22 years old, because they would have kept Quentin if Viciedo would have brought a better return.

LoveYourSuit
01-03-2012, 01:06 AM
It also shows that the guy they are replacing him with has even less value, despite being 22 years old, because they would have kept Quentin if Viciedo would have brought a better return.

Who's getting paid less?

That's why they kept Viciedo.

Daver
01-03-2012, 01:18 AM
Who's getting paid less?

That's why they kept Viciedo.

If you want to believe that, then please do so.

PeteWard
01-03-2012, 06:25 AM
TCQ in the 4 years with us averaged 27 HRs and 80 RBIs, he's got to be worth more than the 2 guys we got for him.

I agree completely. KW has got to go.

doublem23
01-03-2012, 08:59 AM
If you want to believe that, then please do so.

Likewise, if you want to believe the Sox would have preferred to keep Quentin for $8-$10 M this season so he could sit on the bench hurt for 1/4 of the games, please feel free to do so.

cws05champ
01-03-2012, 09:24 AM
There are 7 million reasons to dump Quentin.

And replacing a 25HR 78 RBI corner OF with no arm, average defense, and often injured is not that big of deal.


Also, can I ask you how the Sox would find playing time for Viciedo without getting rid of Quentin as you mentioned?

Here's the thing, people keep on saying he's a 25HR, 78 RBI guy, which by the stats is true. But he did that in 118 games! Yes, his value is degraded because of his injury history, but if he does stay healthy he's a 30+ HR, 25-30 Doubles guy which is still pretty valuable.

I have no problem with the Sox trading him because of Viciedo ready for his shot, but I really hope that the Sox can turn Castro around. Although maybe that started to happen at the end of the year anyway(Castro closed out the season on a high note, notching a 35-5 K-BB ratio and 2.53 ERA over his final seven starts).
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2011/2612762.html

moochpuppy
01-03-2012, 09:33 AM
Here's the thing, people keep on saying he's a 25HR, 78 RBI guy, which by the stats is true. But he did that in 118 games! Yes, his value is degraded because of his injury history, but if he does stay healthy he's a 30+ HR, 25-30 Doubles guy which is still pretty valuable.



He wasn't able to do this in 4 seasons with the Sox. With him turning 30 this coming season I don't expect him to start staying healthy now.

Broccoli Rob
01-03-2012, 09:35 AM
Likewise, if you want to believe the Sox would have preferred to keep Quentin for $8-$10 M this season so he could sit on the bench hurt for 1/4 of the games, please feel free to do so.

He's only paid $8-$10 M if he plays the whole season for the Sox. I don't understand why a guy who is tradeable (for garbage, albeit) even when the demand is virtually zero is suddenly untradeable when he stays on the White Sox to start the 2012 season.

doublem23
01-03-2012, 09:58 AM
He's only paid $8-$10 M if he plays the whole season for the Sox. I don't understand why a guy who is tradeable (for garbage, albeit) even when the demand is virtually zero is suddenly untradeable when he stays on the White Sox to start the 2012 season.

He's not untradeable, but I'm guessing the Sox want to make room for Dayan to play everyday. At the end of this year, Dayan's original pro contract is up, the Sox will have invested $10 M in his development, I guess they want to have a full year of MLB experience to evaluate him. You know, I understand why people want to see the 2008 Quentin when they evaluate TCQ, but everyone here knows that if the Sox had kept TCQ in hopes he would bolster his trade value with as strong start to the season know it was just as likely he'd hurt his value by either getting hurt or going into one of those vicious slumps that plague him. Then we're on the hook for more of his salary the team can't afford and maybe we don't even get a former top prospect reclamation project. :dunno:

The Sox are not in an enviable position of having to slash out some payroll and Quentin was one of the easiest to move and replace in-house. It is what it is.

JC456
01-03-2012, 10:17 AM
Well for me personally, i think that San Diego and Toronto are the only two teams in baseball besides the White Sox. It is the only two teams KW ever deals with. LOL.

kittle42
01-03-2012, 11:24 AM
Well for me personally, i think that San Diego and Toronto are the only two teams in baseball besides the White Sox. It is the only two teams KW ever deals with. LOL.

"LOL," indeed.

asindc
01-03-2012, 12:15 PM
Here's the thing, people keep on saying he's a 25HR, 78 RBI guy, which by the stats is true. But he did that in 118 games! Yes, his value is degraded because of his injury history, but IF he does stay healthy he's a 30+ HR, 25-30 Doubles guy which is still pretty valuable.

I have no problem with the Sox trading him because of Viciedo ready for his shot, but I really hope that the Sox can turn Castro around. Although maybe that started to happen at the end of the year anyway(Castro closed out the season on a high note, notching a 35-5 K-BB ratio and 2.53 ERA over his final seven starts).
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2011/2612762.html

I took the liberty of bolding, italicizing, underlining, and capitalizing the key word in your post. It is that word, more than any other, that led to this decision. IMO, anyone who ignored that word in evaluation of this trade has done incomplete analysis.

SI1020
01-03-2012, 01:59 PM
I took the liberty of bolding, italicizing, underlining, and capitalizing the key word in your post. It is that word, more than any other, that led to this decision. IMO, anyone who ignored that word in evaluation of this trade has done incomplete analysis. If anything this move has been over analyzed on WSI and elsewhere. Jim Margalus, as usual made a good point when he stated that Quentin had more value to the White Sox than he did to any other club. Apparently the case, as the paltry return for him is strong evidence. I have no problem taking my sixpack and salted peanuts for Frasor. I hope the Nestor Molina gamble pans out. As for Q, I remain unhappy with what transpired.

pudge
01-03-2012, 05:57 PM
Yep, saw this on Twitter today and read the article. This is just depressing as hell, but the bottom line is the Sox, even after all of the trades so far, have close to $90 million tied into 10 or 11 players through 2012 and $80 million into 2013.

We've been saying this forever. The Rios and Dunn contracts are killers. If you didn't hate the Rios thing from the beginning, then you're a sucker for a guy who looks like an athlete but has rarely delivered on his promise. For that kind of money, Rios was never worth it. Dunn I don't know what to think, I never like a player who strikes out as much as he does, but it's tough to blame Kenny for the epically bad performance Dunn turned out so far.

All in all though, KW is doing what he can considering he hosed himself with those two contracts. I like KW, but he falls in love with certain guys and totally over pays for them.

pudge
01-03-2012, 06:00 PM
It also shows that the guy they are replacing him with has even less value, despite being 22 years old, because they would have kept Quentin if Viciedo would have brought a better return.

Really? Explain this to me. TCQ costs more and is a FA at the end of the season, no? Plus he's injury prone. I'm not saying Dayan is going to be everything and a bag of chips, but I don't get that comment.

KMcMahon817
01-03-2012, 06:13 PM
Who's getting paid less?

That's why they kept Viciedo.

This, in addition to Viciedo being under control for several more years than TCQ. Silly comment.

Hitmen77
01-04-2012, 12:18 PM
I still cannot figure out what moves don't make sense to people. The Sox let their oldest SP go, used that money to lock up one of their younger, better SP before he hit the market, dealt a COF when they have a ready replacement in-house, and dealt their 29-year-old closer (the bullpen being a position of strength with another young arm ready to jump in the mix) for a prospect who is falls somewhere between average and elite depending on who you ask.

The only people who don't seem to think this plan makes any sense are the psychos who actually think the Sox would be better served completely carving up the team and punting the next 2-3 seasons to the tune of 60-ish wins. Thankfully, those insane maniacs do not have a voice in the Sox front office.

I don't have a problem with the current moves given the position the Sox are in.....I just don't like the fact that KW and his underlings have brought us to this point.

It's not just about Dunn, Rios and Peavy being unexpectedly bad either. If we had any organizational depth, maybe these three busts wouldn't be so crippling to this organization.

I suppose the current shedding of salary along with the Danks extension means that KW expects the Sox to be back in competition soon enough for Danks's contract to be worthwhile. They're not paying him that much for a good lefty in 2012. But I don't expect KW is planning to pay Danks $14M beginning in 2013 just to be part of a rebuilding team. .....but that being said, I'm not sure what would be coming in 2013 that would suddenly make the Sox contenders again. At least Peavy's salary comes off the books. Maybe by the, Nestor Molina will be ready to contribute to the big league team.

I don't know what Williams is doing either. Of course we need to rebuild, but that doesn't appear to be what we're doing. We're dumping salary, but I don't think we're receiving much building material. We're trading proven Major Leaguers for mediocre minor leaguers. I don't see how this builds the team in any meaningful way. If the first part of our rebuilding is merely dumping salary, then why give Danks a fat, long-term contract out of the blue. The guy is below .500 in his career. (Has anyone in the history of baseball gotten beat more on his changeup?) This is the kind of contract that has put the organization is its current bad position.

There doesn't seem to be any vision in the organization. Everything seems to be done in a reactionary manner out of weakness. I've been a big supporter of Williams in the past. After this past season, I felt considerably different about him, though I was still OK with keeping him in charge albeit with some severe reservations, most notably concerning the state of our minor-league system. However, this offseason has been pretty pathetic. He seems to be flailing. It's not pretty.

I agree with the bolded part. Our "vision" seems to be "go for broke"...literally. If our All In™ moves flop (and they did), then we're stuck at "broke".

Who was the last player who came up through the Sox system and became a successful MLB player with the Sox? This has really hurt the Sox. You can only go so far with reclamation projects and under-the-radar trades. Those are a great part of a contending team, but having that as your main strength isn't a good way to be a consistently competitive team in the A.L.

The problem might be that there's not enough accountability in the Sox organization....from KW all the way down.

russ99
01-04-2012, 12:30 PM
Who was the last player who came up through the Sox system and became a successful MLB player with the Sox? This has really hurt the Sox. You can only go so far with reclamation projects and under-the-radar trades. Those are a great part of a contending team, but having that as your main strength isn't a good way to be a consistently competitive team in the A.L.


Probably Magglio. Though Carlos Lee would count too, even if he was only with the Sox a short time.

I'm hopeful that the new drafting rules will let the Sox draft on a more competitive level. The cap isn't too far above what the Sox would spend, so if a partial rebuild is in the cards for this franchise, maybe they can spend to that cap and draft the best players, and not just the ones who would easily sign or sign cheap.

Unfortunately, it usually takes 3-4 years for a change in draft strategy to affect the quality of the big league roster, so it's going to be a while.

Lip Man 1
01-04-2012, 05:30 PM
I'm thinking Buehrle in 2000.

Lip

asindc
01-04-2012, 05:39 PM
I don't have a problem with the current moves given the position the Sox are in.....I just don't like the fact that KW and his underlings have brought us to this point.

It's not just about Dunn, Rios and Peavy being unexpectedly bad either. If we had any organizational depth, maybe these three busts wouldn't be so crippling to this organization.

I suppose the current shedding of salary along with the Danks extension means that KW expects the Sox to be back in competition soon enough for Danks's contract to be worthwhile. They're not paying him that much for a good lefty in 2012. But I don't expect KW is planning to pay Danks $14M beginning in 2013 just to be part of a rebuilding team. .....but that being said, I'm not sure what would be coming in 2013 that would suddenly make the Sox contenders again. At least Peavy's salary comes off the books. Maybe by the, Nestor Molina will be ready to contribute to the big league team.



I agree with the bolded part. Our "vision" seems to be "go for broke"...literally. If our All In™ moves flop (and they did), then we're stuck at "broke".

Who was the last player who came up through the Sox system and became a successful MLB player with the Sox? This has really hurt the Sox. You can only go so far with reclamation projects and under-the-radar trades. Those are a great part of a contending team, but having that as your main strength isn't a good way to be a consistently competitive team in the A.L.

The problem might be that there's not enough accountability in the Sox organization....from KW all the way down.

While your question does strain WSIers to come up with a good response (and rightfully so, since such examples have been far too few and far between in KW's tenure), the question does not address those minor leaguers that were traded for players that ultimately led to the greatest successes in that time. Including such players would be a more complete analysis of the minor league system under KW.

shingo10
01-04-2012, 08:21 PM
I've never been more embarrassed of a post here at WSI.

You're ****ing right all KW has done the last 3-4 years is **** up in his signings and trades but we should all kiss his ****ing ass because he is the almighty KW. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Most GMs would have been fired for HALF the **** he has pulled in the last several seasons and the only reason he has a ****ing job is because of Jerry Reinsdorf's loyalty bull****.

Get a ****ing clue...please.

And you know as soon as KW is gone whoever the next gm is will be complained about even more. And his moves will be worse in everyone's eyes. Because apparently our fanbase wants to be the whiniest for some reason.

russ99
01-04-2012, 08:40 PM
And you know as soon as KW is gone whoever the next gm is will be complained about even more. And his moves will be worse in everyone's eyes. Because apparently our fanbase wants to be the whiniest for some reason.

No, I don't think we have the whiniest fanbase, it's more like every fanbase is much more whiny since everyone has a voice on the internet.

Before that, we had to be disgruntled on our own or call in to sports radio. :)