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Sockinchisox
12-31-2011, 12:48 PM
https://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/153185641830678528

For minor league pitchers Simon Castro and Pedro Hernandez.

Brian26
12-31-2011, 12:54 PM
Not a huge surprise.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2867932&postcount=211

Brian26
12-31-2011, 12:56 PM
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/12/10/2626701/san-diego-padres-top-20-prospects-for-2012

Christ, these two pitchers aren't even ranked, here at least, in their top 25.

Daver was correct:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2867956&postcount=215

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 12:56 PM
Sickels had Castro as a B+ prospect prior to this season where where the wheels fell off in AAA.

2) Simon Castro, RHP, Grade B+: Got killed at Triple-A Tucson early, 10.17 ERA with 21/18 K/BB and 37 hits in 26 innings. Now back at San Antonio, 5.34 ERA with 57/12 K/BB in 59 innings, 74 hits. Very disappointing in all respects.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/8/4/2343184/san-diego-padres-2011-top-20-pre-season-prospects-in-review

thomas35forever
12-31-2011, 12:57 PM
Wow, that's too bad. But yes, not very surprising. Wonder if this means Viciedo/Lillibridge plays every day.

Marqhead
12-31-2011, 12:57 PM
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/12/10/2626701/san-diego-padres-top-20-prospects-for-2012

Christ, these two pitchers aren't even ranked, here at least, in their top 25.

Couldn't find them on baseballamerica's rankings either.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 12:58 PM
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/12/10/2626701/san-diego-padres-top-20-prospects-for-2012

Christ, these two pitchers aren't even ranked, here at least, in their top 25.

Castro used to be a pretty good prospect until last year's disaster. I don't know enough about Hernandez.

Not surprised on the return. Quentin really doesn't have much of any surplus value.

LoveYourSuit
12-31-2011, 12:59 PM
Tells you how little value he has. Can't stay healthy and arbitration eligible.

Brian26
12-31-2011, 01:01 PM
Castro used to be a pretty good prospect until last year's disaster. I don't know enough about Hernandez.

Not surprised on the return. Quentin really doesn't have much of any surplus value.

How much does the new CBA have to do with this, too? The Sox wouldnt necessarily even get a good pick for him if they held on to him for the last year, correct?

thomas35forever
12-31-2011, 01:01 PM
Rosenthal wrote this piece two weeks back:
http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/how_quentin_could_make_sense_for_the_padres/8780836

soxfanreggie
12-31-2011, 01:01 PM
Castro used to be a pretty good prospect until last year's disaster. I don't know enough about Hernandez.

Not surprised on the return. Quentin really doesn't have much of any surplus value.

I wonder if it's a case of "Coop'll fix them!" for trying to get some guys to resurrect their career. Daver was spot on with TCQ having little trade value, especially with being able to hit FA after this year.

Quentin at least will be playing in his hometown area after this trade.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 01:04 PM
KG will be on the Score at 1:20 if you want to hear about the prospects and the trade.


Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
I'll be on The Score 670 in Chicago in 20 minutes to try to explain what the hell the White Sox just did. It won't be easy.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 01:06 PM
How much does the new CBA have to do with this, too? The Sox wouldnt necessarily even get a good pick for him if they held on to him for the last year, correct?

They could potentially still have received a pick, but they probably didn't want to risk offering and him accepting arbitration, especially if he had a mediocre or injury riddled season. The pick wouldn't be as high as in the past with the new bonus picks/round that was added, but it would still be an asset to this team considering the farm state.

SoxSpeed22
12-31-2011, 01:06 PM
KG will be on the Score at 1:20 if you want to hear about the prospects and the trade.


Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
I'll be on The Score 670 in Chicago in 20 minutes to try to explain what the hell the White Sox just did. It won't be easy.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet ReplyThis should be interesting.

Brian26
12-31-2011, 01:06 PM
KG will be on the Score at 1:20 if you want to hear about the prospects and the trade.


Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
I'll be on The Score 670 in Chicago in 20 minutes to try to explain what the hell the White Sox just did. It won't be easy.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

They just saved seven million arbitration dollars and opened up a position for the Tank on an everyday basis. Not a big surprise at all. This had to happen.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 01:07 PM
They just saved seven million arbitration dollars and opened up a position for the Tank on an everyday basis. Not a big surprise at all. This had to happen.

Yea. I'm not sure what he's referring to. I'd imagine he's not fond of the prospects.

WhiteSox5187
12-31-2011, 01:08 PM
I think Quentin should have been dealt and I was hoping for a just a little more than what we got but really the time to trade Quentin was last year at the deadline.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 01:09 PM
I think Quentin should have been dealt and I was hoping for a just a little more than what we got but really the time to trade Quentin was last year at the deadline.

Yep. The surplus value isn't there. 1 year to free agency, injury risk, no assurance of draft pick compensation, and being paid close to what he's worth.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 01:10 PM
KG still likes Castro a bit.


Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
Yes, I had Simon Castro at No. 20 on my Padres list, but remember how great that system is, EASY high-rank with White Sox.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

LoveYourSuit
12-31-2011, 01:12 PM
They just saved seven million arbitration dollars and opened up a position for the Tank on an everyday basis. Not a big surprise at all. This had to happen.

Last week I was thinking to myself that Quentin might even go as far as being non-tendered.

You got three bodies for him, be happy.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 01:30 PM
Goldstein views Hernandez as a fringy bullpen guy. Castro has a middle of the rotation ceiling if he figures things out after the mess that was last year.

gobears1987
12-31-2011, 01:30 PM
Not a surprising trade. Too bad TCQ's value is so low.

SoxSpeed22
12-31-2011, 01:32 PM
Best case, that's two more relievers and saving money.

samurai_sox
12-31-2011, 01:32 PM
Not too thrilled with the return on Quentin, but like others have posted his value wasn't high enough.

Face it, the only way the Sox are going to get hot shot prospects into the system is if the Sox draft them themselves, I just hope KW and the rest of the front office realizes this and start to prepare for the Draft.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 01:34 PM
Not too thrilled with the return on Quentin, but like others have posted his value wasn't high enough.

Face it, the only way the Sox are going to get hot shot prospects into the system is if the Sox draft them themselves, I just hope KW and the rest of the front office realizes this and start to prepare for the Draft.

The Sox are only getting huge prospect returns if they deal Alexei Ramirez or Chris Sale at this point.

A. Cavatica
12-31-2011, 01:36 PM
This trade sucks. If you wanted to make room for Viciedo you have Dunn killed.

soxfanreggie
12-31-2011, 01:40 PM
Last week I was thinking to myself that Quentin might even go as far as being non-tendered.

You got three bodies for him, be happy.

Three?

soxfanreggie
12-31-2011, 01:44 PM
The Sox are only getting huge prospect returns if they deal Alexei Ramirez or Chris Sale at this point.

With Alexei tied up until 2015/2016 if the club option is exercised and Sale under control for a while, I don't see either happening unless the return is absolutely stunning.

WhiteSoxOnly
12-31-2011, 01:51 PM
This trade sucks. If you wanted to make room for Viciedo you have Dunn killed.

Interesting...

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 01:52 PM
With Alexei tied up until 2015/2016 if the club option is exercised and Sale under control for a while, I don't see either happening unless the return is absolutely stunning.

I'd agree. But an argument to move Alexei could be made if full-on rebuilding was actually in the plans.

Just saying that the Sox don't really have any assets that will garner huge returns at this point. (That they are willing to trade)

soxinem1
12-31-2011, 01:53 PM
This trade sucks. If you wanted to make room for Viciedo you have Dunn killed.

That's a little extreme, isn't it? :D:

If Dunn is hitting .182 on May 1, 2012, maybe he will just retire for the love of the game.......

Garcia is supposed to have a real good fastball, and has a nice pitchers build of 6'5" and about 220 lbs.

If anything, KW has been decent in getting fallen-star minor league guys from other teams. At least these two have good stuff. Now try to develop them.

This also clears the way for another multi-million $$$$ investment, Tank, to take a full shot at playing RF everyday. I'm all for it.

Here's to Tank hitting 25-30 HR in 2012!!:gulp:

SoxNation05
12-31-2011, 01:53 PM
Hour after the trade broke and the thread is still at two pages.

Saufley
12-31-2011, 01:54 PM
Just not happy with the way Kenny is going. For what we got in return I'd rather see Quentin on the team for one more year.

Lip Man 1
12-31-2011, 01:58 PM
Kenny yesterday when Danks "officially" signed reminded everyone that when he used the word "rebuilding" it did not mean a "full scale teardown."

This indicated his purpose was to slash payroll a touch and make a spot for Dayan.

At this point anything you get for Q is better than nothing...he wasn't coming back next year (2013) in any case.

I think the 'plan' at this point is perhaps to cut payroll with one more move and hope the three vets rebound and the younger guys progress with a new hitting coach.

If this was the A.L. East or the N.L. West, I'd say 'no chance...' but it isn't.

If they get some breaks, they might have a winning record next season, which is a start.

Lip

soxinem1
12-31-2011, 02:01 PM
Just not happy with the way Kenny is going. For what we got in return I'd rather see Quentin on the team for one more year.

I'd rather not pay Viciedo $4 million to play in AAA again. It's time to see what he can do without excuses.

KMcMahon817
12-31-2011, 02:06 PM
Just not happy with the way Kenny is going. For what we got in return I'd rather see Quentin on the team for one more year.

I agree to a certain extent. But at the same time, its Viciedo's time. I don't love the return, but I'm sure KW took the best offer he had. Sounds like Castro is a decent piece, at worst. I like his build. Hopefully he and Molina can emerge as future arms for our rotation. I am going to miss Q.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 02:06 PM
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
Castro almost by default, Hernandez no. @jaypers413: Would Simon Castro and Pedro Hernandez make your own #WhiteSox top 10 lists?
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

TDog
12-31-2011, 02:08 PM
Not a huge surprise.

Perhaps not, but I still find it terribly disappointing. Quentin had the potential to be an offensive force with MVP potential, and his defense wasn't that bad.

Before the 2011 season I believed that given the choice before Quentin and Dunn, I would have much preferred Quentin. That goes for the lineup as well as the roster. ( I would have put Quentin in left, but essentially Quentin would have been so much better as a DH, but he didn't like DHing, so the White Sox went out and signed a lessor hitter who doesn't like DHing to be their DH.)

Whether the pitchers the Sox got for Quentin are worth it, I have no opinion. The top-rated prospects often don't pan out, and the best pitchers can come out of nowwhere, although they have to find it at some point in the minors to get a chance at the majors. Judging minor league pitchers is hit and miss with so many variables, especially if you're only looking at stats. Scott Ruffcorn was awesome in Nashville.

LITTLE NELL
12-31-2011, 02:09 PM
I hate to see Quentin go, Viciedo did not exactly perform like Frank Thomas when he was called up. If Rios plays like a stiff again in 2012 this trade will hurt.
What's our outfield going to look like. Right now it looks like Vicedo in LF, De Aza in CF and Rios in RF.

SI1020
12-31-2011, 02:18 PM
I hate to see Quentin go, Viciedo did not exactly perform like Frank Thomas when he was called up. If Rios plays like a stiff again in 2012 this trade will hurt.
What's our outfield going to look like. Right now it looks like Vicedo in LF, De Aza in CF and Rios in RF. I agree. On another note, congratulations to Daver for nailing this one. Did you think the return would even go this low, I wonder? Now my two favorite White Sox players are gone and the future looks uncertain. I'll say that because I'm feeling charitable at the moment.

LITTLE NELL
12-31-2011, 02:21 PM
Just not happy with the way Kenny is going. For what we got in return I'd rather see Quentin on the team for one more year.

I agree, for what we got it was worth it to us to keep him and hope he would have a 2008 season without injury.

Domeshot17
12-31-2011, 02:24 PM
Absolutely terrible return for Carlos. Just because you need to save some money doesn't mean you give an all sar away for 2 busted prospects

DrCrawdad
12-31-2011, 02:30 PM
Absolutely terrible return for Carlos. Just because you need to save some money doesn't mean you give an all sar away for 2 busted prospects

Agreed. KW seems to approach trades like my young kids at a store with $5 in their pockets. They are determined to spend that $5 and spend it they will on any junk that passes before them at that moment.

shes
12-31-2011, 02:32 PM
The time to trade him was half a season ago. Could've gotten a better haul.

So ends the TCQ Era. It began with a hell of a bang, and ends with, well, you know.

LITTLE NELL
12-31-2011, 02:37 PM
With TCQ gone, we are going to need a monster comeback of the year performance by Dunn and for Rios to step it up a lot.

pearso66
12-31-2011, 02:38 PM
I have to say, I don't know anything about the players the Sox got in return, but from the sounds of it, they are underwhelming, but it's hard to tell what they will be. I saw that one of the guys was a pretty good prospect until last season, maybe Kenny or Cooper saw something they can fix and turn him back around. It's not like he went 3-4 years since he was considered good. I'll wait to pass judgement on this trade, but we all knew CQ was likely gone before this next season, and who knows what kind of offers were out there. Nobody except Kenny and the teams offering do.

russ99
12-31-2011, 02:41 PM
Quentin is due a raise in arb and is a FA (without compensation) next year. That and his injury history and poor batting numbers other than HR and RBIs makes this look like a fair package, though I'd prefer Kenny acquire prospects closer to a MLB roster spot.

Not sure if this is a good landing spot for TCQ, as Petco is a notorious pitchers park.

As for the Sox, it looks to me like Rios will be in RF, DeAza in CF and Viciedo in LF.

Frater Perdurabo
12-31-2011, 02:50 PM
Meh

He won't be missed if Dunn, Rios and Beckham are simply average.

TDog
12-31-2011, 02:52 PM
The time to trade him was half a season ago. Could've gotten a better haul.

So ends the TCQ Era. It began with a hell of a bang, and ends with, well, you know.

If you want to talk about what the White Sox should have done, and every team has a list of things they should have done, things that don't come up include trading Quentin today or half a season ago.

samurai_sox
12-31-2011, 02:53 PM
Would you consider KW the worst GM is baseball right now? I do.

WhiteSox5187
12-31-2011, 02:59 PM
Would you consider KW the worst GM is baseball right now? I do.

The worst? I don't know but he is near the bottom.

PatK
12-31-2011, 03:02 PM
I wouldn't mind this trade if it was for certain that one of those guys could end up being at least a middle of the rotation starter.

CAREY33
12-31-2011, 03:04 PM
Absolutely terrible return for Carlos. Just because you need to save some money doesn't mean you give an all sar away for 2 busted prospects

In what world is Carlos Quentin an All Star? The guy can't stay healthy and is a brutal fielder.

I really cant see how anyone is suprised or upset by this trade. Payroll still had to be slashed, trading CQ was the only reasonable way to do so. This opens up a spot in the lineup for Tank and the Sox pick up a couple of prospects which they are greatly lacking.

kittle42
12-31-2011, 03:05 PM
Would you consider KW the worst GM is baseball right now? I do.

I would have said the same thing years ago. The last major good move he made was trading Rowand for Thome.

infohawk
12-31-2011, 03:05 PM
Here's the reality as I see it.

If the Sox players had the value that we seem to want them to have, the Sox would probably be winning divisions more often then they do. They aren't winning divisions because their players aren't performing at the level required to do so. The trade market is actually proving why the Sox haven't been more successful. Most of our players just aren't enticing enough for other teams to surrender big prospects. Quentin's a nice player when healthy, but he can't stay healthy. Other teams know this and adjust their trade chips accordingly.

russ99
12-31-2011, 03:10 PM
Here's the reality as I see it.

If the Sox players had the value that we seem to want them to have, the Sox would probably be winning divisions more often then they do. They aren't winning divisions because their players aren't performing at the level required to do so. The trade market is actually proving why the Sox haven't been more successful. Most of our players just aren't enticing enough for other teams to surrender big prospects. Quentin's a nice player when healthy, but he can't stay healthy. Other teams know this and adjust their trade chips accordingly.

Well put.

The time to make this trade was at the deadline. Quentin was healthy had a year plus left before FA and multiple teams had interest, that's when GMs overpay.

Sadly, Kenny's misguided notion that this flawed team could have made the playoffs cost him some better prospects.

At least he got something decent for Edwin Jackson at the deadline.

KRS1
12-31-2011, 03:11 PM
Wow, I just can't grasp how Kenny consistently gives up top prospect for other teams average players and can't get squat for ours.

CAREY33
12-31-2011, 03:18 PM
Here's the reality as I see it.

If the Sox players had the value that we seem to want them to have, the Sox would probably be winning divisions more often then they do. They aren't winning divisions because their players aren't performing at the level required to do so. The trade market is actually proving why the Sox haven't been more successful. Most of our players just aren't enticing enough for other teams to surrender big prospects. Quentin's a nice player when healthy, but he can't stay healthy. Other teams know this and adjust their trade chips accordingly.

Ding, ding, ding. Carlos Quentin was not gonna be well sought after; accept it Sox fans.

soxfanreggie
12-31-2011, 03:20 PM
The worst? I don't know but he is near the bottom.

Some GMs look good because they have payroll $$$ and farm system $$$ to spend. Some GMs don't look as good because they don't have this.

That being said, I have KW down by the bottom. Yes, we was in the GM chair when we won the WS, but overall, I'm disappointed in what the Sox have done since then.

KW is comparing Castro to Jose Contreras and saying the Sox (Coop) can develop him. A GM will say good things about any prospects they pick up in a deal like this, but they will have to show it on the field to get Sox fans to believe that.

delben91
12-31-2011, 03:20 PM
Would you consider KW the worst GM is baseball right now? I do.

So the better alternative was to hold on to Quentin and let him walk after next year for nothing?

What is this team expected to accomplish in 2012 now that the lost of Quentin is going to hinder so much?

What other deal was out there that you're positive was a better option?

All serious questions by the way, not snarky.

WhiteSox5187
12-31-2011, 03:21 PM
In what world is Carlos Quentin an All Star? The guy can't stay healthy and is a brutal fielder.

I really cant see how anyone is suprised or upset by this trade. Payroll still had to be slashed, trading CQ was the only reasonable way to do so. This opens up a spot in the lineup for Tank and the Sox pick up a couple of prospects which they are greatly lacking.

Well, he WAS an All Star last year but I agree with your assessment. Streaky hitters who hit about .250, can't stay healthy and are bad fielders don't get a lot.

gobears1987
12-31-2011, 03:21 PM
Would you consider KW the worst GM is baseball right now? I do.
He's in the bottom 3rd, but this move actually makes sense.

CAREY33
12-31-2011, 03:28 PM
I know most people here might not like him, but for what its worth:

By Keith Law
The White Sox shed some salary they didn't need and get two useful minor league arms, while the Padres get one year of a player whose skills align poorly with their home ballpark.



The White Sox freed salary space and got decent value for Quentin.
Carlos Quentin is a poor defensive outfielder who has great secondary skills, including above-average power and solid plate discipline, but a career .253 BABIP across over 2,400 major-league PA and a history of injuries that should concern an NL team that is going to pretend he can play the field 150 games a year. He could have plenty of value for an AL club hoping he'll make a contract push -- particularly in terms of keeping himself on the field as much as possible -- but in San Diego, where there's no DH, defense is more important, and the ballpark is big, he's a mediocre fit.

This is better than just a salary dump for the White Sox, acquiring two projected relievers for one year of Quentin at a salary approaching the likely value of his production. Simon Castro has worked as a starter throughout his minor league career with a solid-average fastball that might touch 94-95 on occasion and an above-average slider as well as a fringy changeup. His command is well behind his control and he's a poor athlete; those factors and his unspectacular strikeout rates (and lack of a plus pitch) point toward a career in the bullpen rather than in the back of a rotation, although if his velocity plays up in relief he could be very effective for 70 innings a year.

Pedro Hernandez has similar velocity and better control, but from the left side with a better changeup than Castro has and less of a breaking ball; he also projects as a reliever or fifth starter, but not a specialist. Six years of control on both guys for one year of Quentin sounds like a good exchange for me.

russ99
12-31-2011, 03:32 PM
This trade also takes us out of any potential arb raises, and a good read on 2012 payroll:

2012 Guaranteed salaries = $101 M
With estimates (<$1M) for pre-arb players/rookies to fill 25-man roster = $ 107 M

25 man payroll without Thornton and Floyd = $96.4 M
25 man payroll without Thornton and Ohman = $101 M
25 man payroll without Thornton = $103 M

2013 guaranteed salaries (including $9.5M option for Floyd and $4M buyout for Peavy) without first arb raises for Humber, Beckham, Lillibrige and De Aza = $90.25

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 03:36 PM
Sickels - Prospects in the Quentin Trade (http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/12/31/2673194/prospects-in-the-carlos-quentin-trade-san-diego-padres-chicago-white-sox)

BainesHOF
12-31-2011, 03:38 PM
I don't mind trading Quentin. I mind what he got back for him, which sounds like next to nothing.

Brutal trade.

KRS1
12-31-2011, 03:40 PM
His command is well behind his control and he's a poor athlete; those factors and his unspectacular strikeout rates (and lack of a plus pitch) point toward a career in the bullpen rather than in the back of a rotation, although if his velocity plays up in relief he could be very effective for 70 innings a year.

This is what I've read a lot on him. Padres fans especially seem to have been wanting him put in the pen because of his stuff.

CAREY33
12-31-2011, 03:40 PM
I don't mind trading Quentin. I mind what he got back for him, which sounds like next to nothing.

Brutal trade.

Really, what better options were out there that you would have taken instead?

delben91
12-31-2011, 03:41 PM
I love instant analysis on trades where one team gets prospects. But I'm sure if they turn into decent ML players in a couple years everyone will come back and eat their crow.

Frater Perdurabo
12-31-2011, 03:51 PM
I would have said the same thing years ago. The last major good move he made was trading Rowand for Thome.

Depends on how you define "major." Since 2005 he's had some stinkers but he's also had some good ones.

McCarthy for Danks was a great move.

Garcia for Floyd (and Gio) was a good move.

Acquiring Quentin from Arizona was a pretty good move.

TheVulture
12-31-2011, 03:51 PM
I love instant analysis on trades where one team gets prospects. But I'm sure if they turn into decent ML players in a couple years everyone will come back and eat their crow.


Yeah, I don't think anyone here has enough info on the prospects to accurately assess these trades. Looking at minor league numbers doesn't really go very far in evaluating these players. Hell, Roy Halladay posted a 3.84 ERA in the minors.

Frater Perdurabo
12-31-2011, 03:51 PM
Would you consider KW the worst GM is baseball right now? I do.

No. He's average, just like his team.

Brian26
12-31-2011, 03:54 PM
Quentin went down on August 20. Did he only play one more game after that? Basically, he was shut down for the last five or six weeks of the season. I remember writing this at the time.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2818421&postcount=12


What sucks about this, if you're really looking at it for the future, is how does this affect Quentin's trade value over the offseason? This can't be good. Kenny almost had a deal with the Braves before the deadline for some of their young pitching (not Beachy), but if Quentin doesn't come back strong before the end of September, I wonder what kind of return can be expected this offseason. Also, its nothing but bad that this happened to the same shoulder he destroyed in Arizona.

Just a terrible situation, moreso for the future than the rest of this year.

BainesHOF
12-31-2011, 03:55 PM
Really, what better options were out there that you would have taken instead?

Williams completely mismanaged Quentin's value in the past couple years. The organization should be embarrassed.

And, while it's nothing to be particularly proud of, Quentin remained one of our best hitters. Getting garbage for him is unacceptable. This is a blatant salary dump.

gf2020
12-31-2011, 03:57 PM
I'll never forgive Q for the year he injured himself like an idiot and left us punch-less for the playoffs. I still believe that team could have made a run.

I probably would have worked super hard to rebuild his value and then traded him at the deadline. Feel like we could have gotten a better return in the heat of a pennant race but that's a risk as well and I don't know the team's finances.

CAREY33
12-31-2011, 04:01 PM
Williams completely mismanaged Quentin's value in the past couple years. The organization should be embarrassed.

And, while it's nothing to be particularly proud of, Quentin remained one of our best hitters. Getting garbage for him is unacceptable. This is a blatant salary dump.

You can argue they should have moved him earlier, prolly before last season's trading deadline, but they had to shed his salary and you weren't gonna find a better deal than prospects.

Bucky F. Dent
12-31-2011, 04:03 PM
This trade sucks. If you wanted to make room for Viciedo you have Dunn killed.


I've got no problem with that strategy.

shingo10
12-31-2011, 04:06 PM
If Theo makes this very same trade everyone would be bowing down to him as the God of GM's. But lately White Sox fans figure they have to bitch about everything so too much of this thread is devoted to tearing down Kenny Williams. Great.

It is a smart and logical trade. We got 2 arms for one guy who had no future with us.

tstrike2000
12-31-2011, 04:07 PM
Will always remember Carlos for what he did in '08 up until getting injured, especially the two homer game against Lackey. Unfortunately, between health and being streaky, he never quite returned to form. I'm a little surprised we didn't get more for him, but as others have said, his value right now apparently isn't too high.

delben91
12-31-2011, 04:08 PM
This trade sucks. If you wanted to make room for Viciedo you have Dunn killed.

I've got no problem with that strategy.

Wow. Yeah, it's not like these people are human beings. The fact that they underperform on a baseball field should warrant murder.

:rolleyes:

gobears1987
12-31-2011, 04:24 PM
I don't mind trading Quentin. I mind what he got back for him, which sounds like next to nothing.

Brutal trade.

Who would give up something of value for him?

Soxman219
12-31-2011, 04:46 PM
They would have gotten more at the deadline, but KW didn't pull the trigger. TCQ is a streaky hitter who never knew situational hitting and is injury-prone. Trade had to be done, just wish they gotten more.

DumpJerry
12-31-2011, 04:51 PM
The Cubs are going to have to open a Box Office window at Comiskey. We need to watch the Marlins and Padres.

balke
12-31-2011, 04:57 PM
They would have gotten more at the deadline, but KW didn't pull the trigger. TCQ is a streaky hitter who never knew situational hitting and is injury-prone. Trade had to be done, just wish they gotten more.


Dead on. I love TCQ - but the Sox already have Tank. TCQ is the perfect player for a great team. He adds offense in bursts - but his overall value isn't that great. Can hit 6 homeruns in 6 games or 6 homeruns in 2 months.

Bucky F. Dent
12-31-2011, 05:09 PM
Wow. Yeah, it's not like these people are human beings. The fact that they underperform on a baseball field should warrant murder.

:rolleyes:


That's fine. Leave it to Cavatica and I to do the dirty work. :cool:

Hitmen77
12-31-2011, 05:13 PM
Depends on how you define "major." Since 2005 he's had some stinkers but he's also had some good ones.

McCarthy for Danks was a great move.

Garcia for Floyd (and Gio) was a good move.

Acquiring Quentin from Arizona was a pretty good move.

Those 3 trades were 4 years ago now. KW's record since then has been poor.

The continued lack of talent in the farm system has caught up with the White Sox. They've run low on talent to trade away. What's most damning that that other teams' average prospects seem to become "top" prospects in the Sox farm system.

This trade was purely a salary dump. That's the corner that KW has painted the Sox in: salary dump mode. Yuck.

soxinem1
12-31-2011, 05:17 PM
Williams completely mismanaged Quentin's value in the past couple years. The organization should be embarrassed.

And, while it's nothing to be particularly proud of, Quentin remained one of our best hitters. Getting garbage for him is unacceptable. This is a blatant salary dump.

What do you expect to get for an injury-plagued, below-average defensive, slow-footed guy who should be a DH, about to make at least $8 million in 2012 who is just a year from FA?

The fact they dumped the contract is victory enough. If they had to throw $$$$ in then I could understand some disappointment.

I have not been very easy on KW the last several seasons however both of these pitchers at least have decent stuff. With the total lack of prospects in the minors, I would be slow to call these guys garbage before they have thrown one pitch.

The Cubs are going to have to open a Box Office window at Comiskey. We need to watch the Marlins and Padres.

Why? For what tickets cost at wrigley you could fly to SD or MIA and buy tickets there for less, airfare included. There will be plenty of tickets available form day one in San Diego, and by June in Miami! :D:

LITTLE NELL
12-31-2011, 05:24 PM
Sickels - Prospects in the Quentin Trade (http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/12/31/2673194/prospects-in-the-carlos-quentin-trade-san-diego-padres-chicago-white-sox)

Not a lot to get excited about, hard to believe that Quentin's value is this low.

A. Cavatica
12-31-2011, 05:27 PM
Wait, did we just acquire The Simon Castro and The Pedro Hernandez?

LITTLE NELL
12-31-2011, 05:46 PM
Wait, did we just acquire The Simon Castro and The Pedro Hernandez?

No, we got the Who is Simon Castro and the Who is Pedro Hernandez.

Frater Perdurabo
12-31-2011, 05:49 PM
Those 3 trades were 4 years ago now. KW's record since then has been poor.

I am not defending KW or this move. I was responding to the post that claimed the last good major move KW made was Rowand for Thome, and pointing out that he has had some additional successes since then, albeit none very recently. I agree his recent record has been poor, largely due to the colossal failures (for various reasons) of Peavy, Rios and Dunn.

Hitmen77
12-31-2011, 05:55 PM
I am not defending KW or this move. I was responding to the post that claimed the last good major move KW made was Rowand for Thome, and pointing out that he has had some additional successes since then, albeit none very recently. I agree his recent record has been poor, largely due to the colossal failures (for various reasons) of Peavy, Rios and Dunn.

Agreed.

Noneck
12-31-2011, 06:04 PM
If Viciedo has similar value (which looks basically like a salary dump) as Quentin I would have liked to see him dealt. Quentin has shown to have MVP capabilities, Viciedo has shown nothing. But then again there is that $5+M that was a major factor. Oh well, the Sox will be able to get Viciedo off the books next year, which doesnt look so far as a good 10M expenditure.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 06:06 PM
Oh well, the Sox will be able to get Viciedo off the books next year, which doesnt look so far as a good 10M expenditure.

This is... Wat?

You realize Dayan isn't eligible for free agency until 2018 right?

KMcMahon817
12-31-2011, 06:06 PM
If Viciedo has similar value (which looks basically like a salary dump) as Quentin I would have liked to see him dealt. Quentin has shown to have MVP capabilities, Viciedo has shown nothing. But then again there is that $5+M that was a major factor. Oh well, the Sox will be able to get Viciedo off the books next year, which doesnt look so far as a good 10M expenditure.

Viciedo is only off the books of the SOX want him to be. He will be arbitration eligible for several years.

Noneck
12-31-2011, 06:08 PM
This is... Wat?

You realize Dayan isn't eligible for free agency until 2018 right?

The total cost of his contract which ends after this year. And the ability to say goodbye to him at any point after this year.

pudge
12-31-2011, 06:24 PM
The White Sox shed some salary they didn't need and get two useful minor league arms, while the Padres get one year of a player whose skills align poorly with their home ballpark.


Funny, that's the first thing I thought, "Quentin is going to suck in that ballpark." I wish him the best, he was a lot of fun to watch in '08 when he probably would have won MVP had he not busted his hand, but really this is a trade that had to happen. All of you crying "terrible trade" need to grow up, I mean really, why hang on to an 8 million dollar player who is a FA after the season? You can complain about the Rios and Dunn deals that make keeping Carlos impossible, but from where the Sox stand now, there is no point not getting something for him, even if it's mediocre pitching prospects.

Vernam
12-31-2011, 06:46 PM
They would have gotten more at the deadline, but KW didn't pull the trigger.

It's true, and my belief is that the smart trades didn't get made then because it would've been open season on the GM. With a town full of people ready to assign blame for the disastrous season, he'd have played right into certain people's hands by getting the best value for what he had for trade at the deadline. Instead, he took the easy way out -- or backed his team and manager to the hilt, if you prefer -- by standing pat. That's why we got two scrubs for Quentin, and it's why we signed Danks long term after off-season offers for him were underwhelming.

Vernam

Crestani
12-31-2011, 07:17 PM
I live in San Diego and my neighbor came over to tell me about the trade.

My neighbor is a die-hard Padre fan and very excited and after hearing who we got in return, I am at a lost for words...!!! :scratch:

GoGoCrede
12-31-2011, 08:02 PM
I am an awful fan, I just found out about this! Bye TCQ. :(:

Zakath
12-31-2011, 08:33 PM
2011 comes to a ****ty conclusion.

Better hope Dunn turns it around and Viciedo can learn to hit a curveball, or Paulie ain't getting **** to hit.

Jurr
12-31-2011, 09:01 PM
Get Peavy, forced to lose Buehrle.
Get Dunn, forced to lose Quentin.

Man, can this GM add more crap veterans to purge the remaining talent?

Sheesh.

all*star quentin
12-31-2011, 09:06 PM
Get Peavy, forced to lose Buehrle.
Get Dunn, forced to lose Quentin.

Man, can this GM add more crap veterans to purge the remaining talent?

Sheesh.


I feel the same :angry::angry::angry:

Lip Man 1
12-31-2011, 09:20 PM
Rogers uses story to blast Williams (again):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0101-rogers-white-sox-chicago--20120101,0,680195.column

Lip

Saufley
12-31-2011, 09:21 PM
How about this trade? Kenny Williams for Jerry Angelo. Could it get any worse?

palehozenychicty
12-31-2011, 09:21 PM
Here's the reality as I see it.

If the Sox players had the value that we seem to want them to have, the Sox would probably be winning divisions more often then they do. They aren't winning divisions because their players aren't performing at the level required to do so. The trade market is actually proving why the Sox haven't been more successful. Most of our players just aren't enticing enough for other teams to surrender big prospects. Quentin's a nice player when healthy, but he can't stay healthy. Other teams know this and adjust their trade chips accordingly.

Indeed. People here really overvalue this lineup. If this team had that much talent, they'd be in the playoffs a lot more often in a weak division. We have some nice pieces with potential, but nothing more than that.

WhiteSox5187
12-31-2011, 09:28 PM
Rogers uses story to blast Williams (again):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0101-rogers-white-sox-chicago--20120101,0,680195.column

Lip

You might call it blasting, but a lot of that criticism is well deserved. Williams is trying to clean up his own mess and is counting on Vicideo to step up and there are mixed views on Dayan.

gosox41
12-31-2011, 09:43 PM
I'll never forgive Q for the year he injured himself like an idiot and left us punch-less for the playoffs. I still believe that team could have made a run.

I probably would have worked super hard to rebuild his value and then traded him at the deadline. Feel like we could have gotten a better return in the heat of a pennant race but that's a risk as well and I don't know the team's finances.

Wasn't there rumors of a TCQ for Beachy trade?

KW likes to ask the world for his players and demand a king's ransom. But then he goes ahead and passes on a solid offer last July to trade him now.

Might as well of waited to this June/July.


Bob

Tragg
12-31-2011, 10:05 PM
What was the rush? He could dump Quentin for C level prospects at any time.


And to absolutely no surprise, he made this giveaway to a familiar trading partner.

It's phenomenal how poor Williams' trades have been since, basically, the last Quentin trade. Have an excess at a position? Give the player away.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 10:06 PM
You might call it blasting, but a lot of that criticism is well deserved. Williams is trying to clean up his own mess and is counting on Vicideo to step up and there are mixed views on Dayan.

Yep. Article is pretty spot on.

WhiteSox5187
12-31-2011, 10:09 PM
Wasn't there rumors of a TCQ for Beachy trade?

KW likes to ask the world for his players and demand a king's ransom. But then he goes ahead and passes on a solid offer last July to trade him now.

Might as well of waited to this June/July.


Bob

The only way Quentin's trade value was going to change between now and June or July would be if it went down. Even if he was having a phenomenal year, the fact that he would be a free agent next year would have kept his value very low. No one was going to break the bank for six months of a guy.

Tragg
12-31-2011, 10:15 PM
The only way Quentin's trade value was going to change between now and June or July would be if it went down. Even if he was having a phenomenal year, the fact that he would be a free agent next year would have kept his value very low. No one was going to break the bank for six months of a guy.
The draft pick is probably more valuable than the ceiling middle relief/5th starter we got.

Noneck
12-31-2011, 10:55 PM
What was the rush? He could dump Quentin for C level prospects at any time.




Its was about 1.25M a month kind of rush.

Tragg
12-31-2011, 10:58 PM
Its was about 1.25M a month kind of rush.
He makes $5 mill a year, doesn't he?

Noneck
12-31-2011, 11:00 PM
He makes $5 mill a year, doesn't he?

Isnt he arbitration eligible this year?

Tragg
12-31-2011, 11:06 PM
Isnt he arbitration eligible this year?

After this upcoming season, I thought.
Anyway, we pay $3.7 mill for the last guy in our pen, but have to dump Quentin's salary for middle relief/5th starter prospects.

Noneck
12-31-2011, 11:18 PM
After this upcoming season, I thought.
Anyway, we pay $3.7 mill for the last guy in our pen, but have to dump Quentin's salary for middle relief/5th starter prospects.

Now Im confused, I always thought he was a FA after this year and arbitration eligible this year. If he is locked in this year for 5M and the Sox still one more year after this till he becomes a FA, this trade is total crap. This would mean the Sox are only saving 2.5M to keep a guy that they have already sunk almost 8M into and has done absolutely nothing, over a guy that has proven that he is MLB player who has had an MVP quality season.

DirtySox
12-31-2011, 11:21 PM
Now Im confused, I always thought he was a FA after this year and arbitration eligible this year. If he is locked in this year for 5M and the Sox still one more year after this till he becomes a FA, this trade is total crap. This would mean the Sox are only saving 2.5M to keep a guy that they have already sunk almost 8M into and has done absolutely nothing, over a guy that has proven that he is MLB player who has had an MVP quality season.

Carlos is up for arbitration currently and a free agent at the end of this upcoming season. Estimates would have Quentin making somewhere around $7.5 million.

Noneck
12-31-2011, 11:26 PM
Carlos is up for arbitration currently and a free agent at the end of this upcoming season. Estimates would have Quentin making somewhere around $7.5 million.

Thank you for the clarification and that I am not feeble yet.

cards press box
12-31-2011, 11:34 PM
I would have liked to see the Sox get Brandon Beachy in a Carlos Quentin deal but, obviously, that didn't happen. That said, I have two thoughts on the trade:

(1) In 2010, Kevin Goldstein ranked him as a 4-star prospect and the #2 prospect in the prospect rich Padre system. It is possible that KW correctly saw that a few mechanical problems derailed Castro's 2011 season on the field and in terms of health. KW came right out and compared him physically and mechanically to Jose Contreras. So, we'll see what Don Cooper can do. As for Pedro Hernandez, he is a lefty in the low minors with three good pitches (http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2011/12/white-sox-trade-quentin-to-pad.html) for strikes according to the Sun-Times (and, no, not Joe Cowley). So, we'll have to see about him.

(2) Where does this leave Gavin Floyd? If the Sox had gotten Beachy for Quentin, then it would have been logical to move Floyd for a bat. Now, I'm not so sure. What do you all think?

slavko
12-31-2011, 11:39 PM
You might call it blasting, but a lot of that criticism is well deserved. Williams is trying to clean up his own mess and is counting on Vicideo to step up and there are mixed views on Dayan.

Dayan had a soft bat after his belated recall, IIRC. Here's hoping his new-found pitch selectiveness doesn't translate to just that. Guy looked like he was hesitant to take a big cut.

Nellie_Fox
01-01-2012, 12:26 AM
This also clears the way for another multi-million $$$$ investment, Tank, to take a full shot at playing RF everyday. I'm all for it.

Here's to Tank hitting 25-30 HR in 2012!!:gulp:Yeah, homeruns are all that matters. He's a butcher defensively and another strikeout machine. Things just keeping looking worse and worse for this year.

In what world is Carlos Quentin an All Star? The guy can't stay healthy and is a brutal fielder.

I really cant see how anyone is suprised or upset by this trade. Payroll still had to be slashed, trading CQ was the only reasonable way to do so. This opens up a spot in the lineup for Tank and the Sox pick up a couple of prospects which they are greatly lacking.You think TCQ is a brutal fielder? Wait until you're treated to Viciedo as an everyday right fielder.

WhiteSox5187
01-01-2012, 01:25 AM
Yeah, homeruns are all that matters. He's a butcher defensively and another strikeout machine. Things just keeping looking worse and worse for this year.

You think TCQ is a brutal fielder? Wait until you're treated to Viciedo as an everyday right fielder.

I think that Dayan is probably going to wind up playing left with De Aza in center and Rios in right. By the time Dayan was called up I was busy with other stuff and didn't get to watch him so much in right but I believe I read somewhere that he had the range of a garden gnome. I think his limited power last year was due to that thumb injury but if he could ever learn the strike zone (and that is a BIG if), he could be a very good hitter based on what I saw of him in 2010. He obviously has a lot of work to do but it's not like this team is going anywhere anyways. I don't mind throwing him to the sharks so much this year as at least he has SOME degree of upside.

SoxSpeed22
01-01-2012, 01:56 AM
The idea of Viciedo playing left at Target Field or Comerica terrifies me. It's better that Rios is no longer playing center. I don't think we've had a true center fielder since Singleton, BA was still the best one defensively, but we all know how that ended.
As far as the rebuilding effort goes, no one said it has to be all at once. I actually like that KW is taking his time with it. Cleveland did a decent job (twice) when they took their time. If there's anything the Santos trade taught us, he can deal anyone at any time.

Moses_Scurry
01-01-2012, 06:44 AM
Without reading the entire thread, I'm guessing that I'll be echoing similar statements, but it makes me sick to my stomach to see the players I like leave while Dunn and Rios remain. I realize Q had to be traded, and I'm not even down on the return, but watching the team is going to be very difficult this summer barring a miracle. I will be irrationally blaming Dunn and Rios for the departures of Buehrle and Quentin every time I see them striking out.

cws05champ
01-01-2012, 08:00 AM
You might call it blasting, but a lot of that criticism is well deserved. Williams is trying to clean up his own mess and is counting on Vicideo to step up and there are mixed views on Dayan.
True, but Phil tries to phrase things incorrectly to prove his argument as here:

Williams made a short-term move when he locked up John Danks for five years after his worst season a surprise after he allowed franchise icon Mark Buehrle to walk away without a contract offer but he has made long-term trades sacrificing his closer and his No. 3 hitter.

How is locking up Danks for 5 years a short term move? And trading his closer (who usually have short shelf lives), and TCQ long term sacrifices? TCQ was going to be a FA at the end of the year, and when was the last time he was our # 3 hitter? Phil tries to frame things in his article for some of the stupid people that don't know any better.

balke
01-01-2012, 08:10 AM
I will be irrationally blaming Dunn and Rios for the departures of Buehrle and Quentin every time I see them striking out.

How will that be irrational? Because you'll be leaving Kenny out? I think Kenny only deserves mild blame - because on paper Dunn should've worked.

I think regardless of what your opinion of Dunn is - that was one of the worst moves ever in franchise history.

What could've easily been Tank at DH and TCQ in RF - is now Dunn playing at least DH and likely a lot of 1B and RF for a team who had to let go of great pitching because of him.

Saufley
01-01-2012, 08:16 AM
Did not KW say he was trading our players for those with MLB ready talent? What happened?

balke
01-01-2012, 08:25 AM
Yeah, homeruns are all that matters. He's a butcher defensively and another strikeout machine. Things just keeping looking worse and worse for this year.

You think TCQ is a brutal fielder? Wait until you're treated to Viciedo as an everyday right fielder.

I find it amusing how Ozzie took the blame - when all he ever asked for was defense and speed. Then he gets replaced by a guy who - even if the team is doing great - will see clips of the Nolan Ryan incident every single national broadcast.

ZombieRob
01-01-2012, 08:42 AM
Whatever happened to all the "In KW we Trust"? :dtroll: KW doesn't even know what he's doing. Sox scouting Dept is one of the worst in the league.

DumpJerry
01-01-2012, 08:46 AM
I find it amusing how Ozzie took the blame - when all he ever asked for was defense and speed. Then he gets replaced by a guy who - even if the team is doing great - will see clips of the Nolan Ryan incident every single national broadcast.
Only if you and about three other WSIers are hired as Production Assistants on the national broadcasts.

On the day Robin was hired, Ryan said they would not be showing the clip at the ballpark. I seriously doubt it will get much, if any, play on TV. I don't know there are some people here who think this will happen.

SI1020
01-01-2012, 09:22 AM
Yeah, homeruns are all that matters. He's a butcher defensively and another strikeout machine. Things just keeping looking worse and worse for this year.

You think TCQ is a brutal fielder? Wait until you're treated to Viciedo as an everyday right fielder. Exactly. Quentin was not brutal in the field last year. Not anything close to a GG, but much improved from previous years.

Tragg
01-01-2012, 09:41 AM
Carlos is up for arbitration currently and a free agent at the end of this upcoming season. Estimates would have Quentin making somewhere around $7.5 million.
Thanks for the info.
Anyway, roughly $3.75 million more than Jason Frasor is too much for the most productive hitter on this team for the last 4 seasons.

balke
01-01-2012, 10:15 AM
Only if you and about three other WSIers are hired as Production Assistants on the national broadcasts.

On the day Robin was hired, Ryan said they would not be showing the clip at the ballpark. I seriously doubt it will get much, if any, play on TV. I don't know there are some people here who think this will happen.

National as in Fox Sundays, Sunday Night Baseball ESPN, and potentially any playoff game broadcast. They have 2+ hours to kill - can nearly guarantee these type of broadcasts are going to show this clip or at least talk about it every time they talk about him being the new manager.

DumpJerry
01-01-2012, 10:48 AM
National as in Fox Sundays, Sunday Night Baseball ESPN, and potentially any playoff game broadcast. They have 2+ hours to kill - can nearly guarantee these type of broadcasts are going to show this clip or at least talk about it every time they talk about him being the new manager.
Did I question what you meant by a national broadcast? Nope. I am very familiar with the concept.

News flash: During the baseball season, there is tons of current news to report 24/7. Tune into the MLB Network sometime. There will be no need for filler material from long ago.

balke
01-01-2012, 10:52 AM
Did I question what you meant by a national broadcast? Nope. I am very familiar with the concept.

News flash: During the baseball season, there is tons of current news to report 24/7. Tune into the MLB Network sometime. There will be no need for filler material from long ago.

You would think. Of course, the only reason I mention it is because I've already seen it on just about every local and national newscast as they talked about the White Sox getting a new coach.

DumpJerry
01-01-2012, 11:10 AM
You would think. Of course, the only reason I mention it is because I've already seen it on just about every local and national newscast as they talked about the White Sox getting a new coach.
Not sure what you've been watching, but I've yet to see it except at WSI where people seem fascinated by it.

#1swisher
01-01-2012, 11:14 AM
In this recap Padres GM, Byrnes regrets trading away Quentin when he was the DBacks GM.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/reactions-to-the-carlos-quentin-trade-1.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

soxinem1
01-01-2012, 11:23 AM
I find some of the reactions in this thread quite puzzling.

It was mentioned TCQ was the most productive hitter on the team the last four years. Hmmm, more than Konerko?

Complaints across the board slam the team for neither having minor league prospects nor giving them a chance to play, yet when the opportunity arises to put one in the position to play everyday, all of a sudden no one wants to play them. Viciedo is making $4 million a year, its time to see what he can do.

Besides, Quentin has never been an everyday player at the MLB level. His career high in games is 131 and he's never had 500 AB's in a season.

Viciedo has been labeled as a defensive liability. He's also had his position changed in the last 12 months. In ST last year I watched this guy catch everything and make laser throws to all bases including home plate. He may well be a GG candidate, but after watching Pierre and Quentin throw the past two years, I'll take a chance on this guy.

One of the reasons TB has been so successful the past four years is because they brought up their prospects and played them. I thought it was awesome that Joe Maddon put Matt Moore on the mound in the first game of the ALDS. Maddon also put the others in the lineup and let them go. Not an Ozzie 16 AB tryout, but they were played. NYY has done this, and so has BOS.

I wish those days would come back here.

DirtySox
01-01-2012, 11:30 AM
I find some of the reactions in this thread quite puzzling.

It was mentioned TCQ was the most productive hitter on the team the last four years. Hmmm, more than Konerko?

Complaints across the board slam the team for neither having minor league prospects nor giving them a chance to play, yet when the opportunity arises to put one in the position to play everyday, all of a sudden no one wants to play them. Viciedo is making $4 million a year, its time to see what he can do.

Besides, Quentin has never been an everyday player at the MLB level. His career high in games is 131 and he's never had 500 AB's in a season.

Viciedo has been labeled as a defensive liability. He's also had his position changed in the last 12 months. In ST last year I watched this guy catch everything and make laser throws to all bases including home plate. He may well be a GG candidate, but after watching Pierre and Quentin throw the past two years, I'll take a chance on this guy.

One of the reasons TB has been so successful the past four years is because they brought up their prospects and played them. I thought it was awesome that Joe Maddon put Matt Moore on the mound in the first game of the ALDS. Maddon also put the others in the lineup and let them go. Not an Ozzie 16 AB tryout, but they were played. NYY has done this, and so has BOS.

I wish those days would come back here.

Dayan is not making $4 million a year. And despite his arm, his defensive ability is pretty awful. Otherwise I agree. It's time for him to play everyday on the big league club. Especially in a year that the club is semi-rebuilding or whatever the hell Kenny wants to call it.

Lip Man 1
01-01-2012, 12:03 PM
5187:

I agree... most of the issues are caused by Kenny. My point was though, how often can you keep repeating the same thing? (i.e. Williams is a bad G.M....if only the Sox had a good farm sysytem they'd be fine etc...)

What I'd like to see Phil do is take a page from Sam Smith. OK....show how how to "fix" all these issues Phil.

Lip

Moses_Scurry
01-01-2012, 12:18 PM
How will that be irrational? Because you'll be leaving Kenny out? I think Kenny only deserves mild blame - because on paper Dunn should've worked.

I think regardless of what your opinion of Dunn is - that was one of the worst moves ever in franchise history.

What could've easily been Tank at DH and TCQ in RF - is now Dunn playing at least DH and likely a lot of 1B and RF for a team who had to let go of great pitching because of him.

It's irrational because it is unhealthy to constantly dwell on things that have already been done. We have three more years with these bums. That is depressing. Unless they turn it around and are spectacular (league average won't do it) I will be reminded of this offseason and be pissed.

ZombieRob
01-01-2012, 12:36 PM
Jason Frasor traded back to Toronto per Davis Shuster

BainesHOF
01-01-2012, 02:54 PM
Jason Frasor traded back to Toronto per Davis Shuster

Who is this Davis Shuster you speak of? Farmer's new radio partner?

A. Cavatica
01-01-2012, 03:57 PM
It was mentioned TCQ was the most productive hitter on the team the last four years. Hmmm, more than Konerko?


He wasn't more productive than Konerko over that span, but I would rather see an in-form TCQ coming up to the plate than an in-form PK. When Carlos was in a groove he was as scary a hitter as Frank Thomas.

kufram
01-01-2012, 04:11 PM
I suppose we did have to let TCQ go but he will be worth a lot to another team sometime in the future. I can see him going on a hot streak for somebody at a time when it puts them over the top.

Not all players have to play a full season to have a big impact. When Carlos was hot he was as damaging a hitter as anyone. I think his attitude and determination will put him somewhere important again and maybe more than once.

stevemcstud
01-01-2012, 05:56 PM
i cant imagine that boston couldn't of put together a better package for Santos/Quentin.

They needed exactly what we had, power hitting RF and a great closer. I still can't believe we got only 3 prospects total for both Santos and Quentin.

BainesHOF
01-01-2012, 05:59 PM
i cant imagine that boston couldn't of put together a better package for Santos/Quentin.

They needed exactly what we had, power hitting RF and a great closer. I still can't believe we got only 3 prospects total for both Santos and Quentin.

Agreed.

And I'm tired of getting quantity minor leaguers instead of quality.

RCWHITESOX
01-01-2012, 10:20 PM
For all the good Kenny Williams has done he has been one of the major reasons the Sox have one of the poorest farm systems. Now that the Sox are taking somewhat of a different approach I cant say I feel to confident that Williams knows how to rebuild a farm system.

Noneck
01-01-2012, 10:42 PM
For all the good Kenny Williams has done he has been one of the major reasons the Sox have one of the poorest farm systems. Now that the Sox are taking somewhat of a different approach I cant say I feel to confident that Williams knows how to rebuild a farm system.

As a GM the only fault I see he had regarding the farm system was that he didnt watch his underlings closely enough. I dont fault him for draft choices. If he can not choose the best players because of money or agent affiliation, his draft choice selection can be very difficult. Also if money is not allotted for scouting, drafting quality players is extremely difficult. The one at fault is Williams boss.

Frater Perdurabo
01-02-2012, 07:41 AM
Now that the Sox are taking somewhat of a different approach I cant say I feel to confident that Williams knows how to rebuild a farm system.

Wasn't KW the farm director from some time in the 1990s through the 2000 season, at which point the Sox farm system was ranked #1?

He knows how to build a decent farm system, but for the last decade has used it to build prospects' trade value quickly in order to trade it for talent that could help the MLB team quickly.

chisox77
01-02-2012, 06:11 PM
I have Quentin's jersey, #20. But it was a gift from a friend.

moochpuppy
01-03-2012, 08:12 AM
At the beginning of 2011 Simon Castro was rated as the #58 overall prospect by BA.

One bad season shouldn't be too alarming. Besides, The Arm Whisperer will be able to correct any mechanical problems.

102605
01-03-2012, 08:18 AM
At the beginning of 2011 Simon Castro was rated as the #58 overall prospect by BA.

One bad season shouldn't be too alarming. Besides, The Arm Whisperer will be able to correct any mechanical problems.

He numbers were beyond terrible but I agree. Maybe Coop even saw something with him and asked KW to see if they could get him at a nice cost.