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DirtySox
12-22-2011, 04:05 PM
keithlaw keithlaw
Gio to Nats for Cole, Norris, Peacock, and Milone. Love this for Oakland.
21 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Nice haul for Oakland. Huge fan of Peacok, Cole, and Norris.

soxinem1
12-22-2011, 04:14 PM
Very big haul.

OTOH, looks like WAS wants to start showing the NL East they mean business.

Norris has mucho power and Milone can deal strikes (and is MLB ready).

Good deal for both sides.

Lip Man 1
12-22-2011, 04:20 PM
I think Dirty is right. The question is how long does Beane hold on to them before he ships them out for more prospects because the A's aren't winning. Two years??

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2011, 04:20 PM
The Swisher debacle continues to haunt the Sox.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2011, 04:23 PM
I think Dirty is right. The question is how long does Beane hold on to them before he ships them out for more prospects because the A's aren't winning. Two years??

Lip

I am sure Beane would prefer to have a payroll that didn't require him to trade away his soon-to-be-costly players for prospects, but that is just the reality of his situation and he shouldn't be criticized for it.

DirtySox
12-22-2011, 04:26 PM
I think Dirty is right. The question is how long does Beane hold on to them before he ships them out for more prospects because the A's aren't winning. Two years??

Lip

Supposedly he's trying to procure a new core of young players with a timeline that coincides with the opening of a new park.

Moses_Scurry
12-22-2011, 04:31 PM
keithlaw keithlaw
Gio to Nats for Cole, Norris, Peacock, and Milone. Love this for Oakland.
21 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Nice haul for Oakland. Huge fan of Peacok, Cole, and Norris.

The NL East is going to be one he'll of a division. I could easily see both wildcards coming from the east with better records than the Central and West winners.

EMachine10
12-22-2011, 04:39 PM
Great haul for Gio.

cards press box
12-22-2011, 04:39 PM
The Swisher debacle continues to haunt the Sox.

I suppose so, particularly the first Swisher deal with Oakland. It appears that the most valuable player from either Swisher deal was Gio Gonzalez. I certainly would have loved to see the Sox hold onto him and either start him or deal him for the group of players that Oakland just acquired.

On the other hand, I'm sure that Texas wishes they still had John Danks and Arizona wishes that they still had Carlos Quentin. I'm quite sure the Yankees wish they still had Ian Kennedy. Most teams have some trade or trades they wish they could have back. It's just part of the game.

Lip Man 1
12-22-2011, 04:46 PM
Frater:

But, but he's a genius...he can turn water into wine!

:D:

Funny how without guys named Zito, Hudson and Mulder his approach to the game hasn't won a thing.

Lip

kittle42
12-22-2011, 05:47 PM
One of KW's biggest blunders - twice.

TDog
12-22-2011, 07:30 PM
The A's got him for a player they really didn't want with a contract they didn't want and they are getting rid of him before his value drops.

Gonzalez frustrated A's fans tremendously for a couple of years, but had a nice season in 2011. I think the American League was catching up to him, and move to the National League will make him look a lot better than he would have looked another year in Oakland.

HomeFish
12-22-2011, 07:36 PM
I was pretty excited to see Peacock in Washington. Oh well.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2011, 08:21 PM
Frater:

But, but he's a genius...he can turn water into wine!

:D:

Funny how without guys named Zito, Hudson and Mulder his approach to the game hasn't won a thing.

Lip

I agree, Lip. He's not a genius, but his hands are tied.

TDog
12-22-2011, 08:48 PM
I agree, Lip. He's not a genius, but his hands are tied.

How are his hands tied? Gonzalez made barely above the MLB minimum last year and he won't be a free agent until 2016.

The only way you can justify this trade is if it makes sense competitively.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2011, 08:57 PM
How are his hands tied? Gonzalez made barely above the MLB minimum last year and he won't be a free agent until 2016.

The only way you can justify this trade is if it makes sense competitively.

His hands were not tied in this specific case, but overall he doesn't have the revenues to spend like the Angels and Rangers.

TDog
12-22-2011, 09:04 PM
His hands were not tied in this specific case, but overall he doesn't have the revenues to spend like the Angels and Rangers.

He has enough to spend to retain Gonzalez.

palehozenychicty
12-22-2011, 09:08 PM
Until the A's get a stadium, they'll never compete in that division.

It's just a fact, with the Rangers becoming a juggernaut on and off the field. If the Mariners can ever get a couple hitters, they'll be tougher too as their starting pitching is quite solid.

palehozenychicty
12-22-2011, 09:10 PM
In reflection of the trade, the Nationals are going to be a problem very soon. Once Harper arrives and if he realizes his talent...

DirtySox
12-22-2011, 09:18 PM
In reflection of the trade, the Nationals are going to be a problem very soon. Once Harper arrives and if he realizes his talent...

A top three of Strasburg, Gio, and Zimmermann is pretty nice. A potential middle of the order with Harper, Zimmerman, and Rendon could be pretty scary too.

russ99
12-23-2011, 09:52 AM
One of KW's biggest blunders - twice.

I hope you're counting the Rowand deal in that, Gio was also included in that trade.

Look what Aaron did at the plate for the Phillies from 2006-2009. You can't say that wouldn't have made a difference for the Sox, especially in 2006.

Thome did a great job for us, but there are plenty of ways to add a DH, especially in a year that Jerry gave Kenny the most payroll to play with ever.

soxfanatlanta
12-23-2011, 10:06 AM
The NL East is going to be one he'll of a division. I could easily see both wildcards coming from the east with better records than the Central and West winners.

No kidding - the East is going to be a dogfight for the whole year.

doublem23
12-23-2011, 10:09 AM
I am sure Beane would prefer to have a payroll that didn't require him to trade away his soon-to-be-costly players for prospects, but that is just the reality of his situation and he shouldn't be criticized for it.

That's ****ing bull****. At what point do you even attempt to make a run for it? I understand that the A's don't have the payroll flexibility of a major market team, but give me a break, the point of baseball is to win. The A's haven't even been sorta OK good for years now. Hey great, they got a bunch of players who rock in the minor leagues, that'll help them limp to 70 wins in 2012.

doublem23
12-23-2011, 10:13 AM
I hope you're counting the Rowand deal in that, Gio was also included in that trade.

Look what Aaron did at the plate for the Phillies from 2006-2009. You can't say that wouldn't have made a difference for the Sox, especially in 2006.

Thome did a great job for us, but there are plenty of ways to add a DH, especially in a year that Jerry gave Kenny the most payroll to play with ever.

Rowand really only had one above average year for the Phillies/Giants between 2006-2009, otherwise he was a rather unremarkable player that was easily replaceable. The problem was the Sox replaced him with duds like Brian Anderson, Rob Mackowiak, and Darin Erstad.

Rowand's 2006-2009: .278/.341/.446, 101 OPS+... Not terrible, but nothing special.

Thome added the left-handed bat the Sox so sorely needed. Easily the right move at the time, as the Sox would have gone back to the playoffs in 2006 had the starting pitching not buckled from the innings in 2005 and the bullpen not fallen apart from their '05 brilliance.

:shrug:

TheOldRoman
12-23-2011, 10:23 AM
I agree, Lip. He's not a genius, but his hands are tied.He has less pressure on him being in Oakland and having a small payroll, but he is not a good GM. He has to keep salary low, yet he inexplicably trades for veterans such as Milton Bradley and then Matt Holliday in a year they weren't going to compete. And in those two trades, he gave up Andre Ethier and Carlos Gonzalez. Holy ****!! Those are two of the best players in baseball, both traded from the Athletics for veterans who Beane hoped to trade later for better prospects. That is not good GMing right there.

Thome25
12-23-2011, 11:16 AM
The Swisher debacle continues to haunt the Sox.

This.

Why KW still has a job is beyond me.

chisox12
12-23-2011, 11:17 AM
Good for the Nats. Mike Rizzo is a friend of my Dad's so I'm always rooting for the Nats to do well. At the same time, I wish we never let Gio get away- TWICE!

chisox12
12-23-2011, 11:17 AM
Why KW still has a job is beyond me.


Quite a mystery, isn't it? :scratch::scratch:

SBSoxFan
12-23-2011, 06:52 PM
I hope you're counting the Rowand deal in that, Gio was also included in that trade.

Look what Aaron did at the plate for the Phillies from 2006-2009. You can't say that wouldn't have made a difference for the Sox, especially in 2006.

Thome did a great job for us, but there are plenty of ways to add a DH, especially in a year that Jerry gave Kenny the most payroll to play with ever.

But didn't the Sox get Gio back after that for Garcia?

TDog
12-23-2011, 07:09 PM
But didn't the Sox get Gio back after that for Garcia?

Yes. And then they traded him for someone most fans were excited to see come to the team.

soxinem1
12-23-2011, 07:47 PM
He has less pressure on him being in Oakland and having a small payroll, but he is not a good GM. He has to keep salary low, yet he inexplicably trades for veterans such as Milton Bradley and then Matt Holliday in a year they weren't going to compete. And in those two trades, he gave up Andre Ethier and Carlos Gonzalez. Holy ****!! Those are two of the best players in baseball, both traded from the Athletics for veterans who Beane hoped to trade later for better prospects. That is not good GMing right there.

Maybe so, but the GM here traded Chris Young, Gio Gonzalez twice, Fautino De Los Santos, Clayton Richard, and Dan Hudson, with very little to show for it.

rdivaldi
12-23-2011, 08:13 PM
Maybe so, but the GM here traded Chris Young, Gio Gonzalez twice, Fautino De Los Santos, Clayton Richard, and Dan Hudson, with very little to show for it.

Why bother mentioning Chris Young, Fautino De Los Santos and Clayton Richard? Are we mad at KW for trading Aaron Poreda, Chris Getz and Josh Fields? It is also unbelievable to me that people think Gio would have made it as a White Sox pitcher. After his first 2 seasons in the majors he would have been run out of town. He was brutal and his problems would have been magnified pitching in the Cell.

Steelrod
12-24-2011, 01:55 AM
Gio is on his way to being the most traded player under 30!

doublem23
12-24-2011, 02:17 AM
Maybe so, but the GM here traded Chris Young, Gio Gonzalez twice, Fautino De Los Santos, Clayton Richard, and Dan Hudson, with very little to show for it.

Yeah, we have so little to show for the KW era.

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2006/04/04/V62aALUG.jpg

DumpJerry
12-24-2011, 09:31 AM
Maybe so, but the GM here traded Chris Young, Gio Gonzalez twice, Fautino De Los Santos, Clayton Richard, and Dan Hudson, with very little to show for it.
So true, especially when you look at all the other GMs who served the other 29 teams during the time Kenny has been GM. None of them made any trades (except with Kenny to fleece him), so they would not have to worry about the fanbase jumping on them using hindsight as the launching board.:rolleyes:

Tragg
12-24-2011, 11:39 AM
But didn't the Sox get Gio back after that for Garcia?
Yes that was an astute move by KW. That trade got Floyd here.
But then the Swisher deals were just horrible. Even DLS is an effective bullpen pitcher.

Why bother mentioning Chris Young, Fautino De Los Santos and Clayton Richard? Are we mad at KW for trading Aaron Poreda, Chris Getz and Josh Fields? It is also unbelievable to me that people think Gio would have made it as a White Sox pitcher. After his first 2 seasons in the majors he would have been run out of town. He was brutal and his problems would have been magnified pitching in the Cell.
The trouble is that we got nothing for Poreda, Getz and Fields.....or Gio, DLS and Richard although one would hope that Peavy would finally deliver a good season.

soxinem1
12-24-2011, 12:22 PM
Yeah, we have so little to show for the KW era.

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2006/04/04/V62aALUG.jpg

I guess that gives him a free pass forever. Since that time, they backdoor'd their way to one division title.

TDog
12-24-2011, 12:52 PM
I guess that gives him a free pass forever. Since that time, they backdoor'd their way to one division title.

Winning a makeup game the day after the regular season ended and the next day winning a one-game playoff, all after your MVP-candidate best offensive player was lost for the season is not winning the division through the backdoor.

Lip Man 1
12-24-2011, 03:39 PM
I think (and if I'm wrong he can correct me) his point was that the Sox should never have been in that position in the first place.

That final week after getting swept out of Minnesota they caught a very fortunate break when the Royals put the wood to the Twins enough to enable the Sox to stay alive.

Lip

rdivaldi
12-24-2011, 04:41 PM
The trouble is that we got nothing for Poreda, Getz and Fields...

Neither did the other teams. Sometimes trades don't work out for either side. When you go over the list of prospects and first year players that KW has traded since 2000, I think Gio and Hudson are probably the first to make you go "uh oh". It's a pretty lame list.

TDog
12-24-2011, 06:15 PM
I think (and if I'm wrong he can correct me) his point was that the Sox should never have been in that position in the first place.

That final week after getting swept out of Minnesota they caught a very fortunate break when the Royals put the wood to the Twins enough to enable the Sox to stay alive.

Lip

I have no doubt what the argument was. But if the Yankees had been swept by the Indians to finish the 1964 season, no one would have said the White Sox backdoored their way into the World Series after losing 12 of 18 to the Yankees during the season. If the Yankees had lost two of three to the Indians and lost a one-game playoff to the White Sox, some Sox fans would still be talking about it in a manner no unlike ancient Greeks passing down Homer's tales of the Trojan War.

There is no reason to denigrate the achievements of the 2008 White Sox to support the premise that Kenny Williams is a bad general manager.

asindc
12-24-2011, 06:40 PM
I think (and if I'm wrong he can correct me) his point was that the Sox should never have been in that position in the first place.

That final week after getting swept out of Minnesota they caught a very fortunate break when the Royals put the wood to the Twins enough to enable the Sox to stay alive.

Lip

Maybe, but I have the feeling that he would not have said the Twinkees backdoored their way to the division title if the roles had been reversed. In such case, the GM might have been blamed for the team's losing to KC over that weekend and losing the makeup game.

doublem23
12-24-2011, 08:53 PM
I guess that gives him a free pass forever. Since that time, they backdoor'd their way to one division title.

That's not at all the point I was making, I have no problem with people who want Williams moved for the future, I only have a problem with those who try and paint a narrative that Williams has had no success in the past.

DumpJerry
12-24-2011, 09:07 PM
For those of you who for some reason want to lament Kenny trading Poreda, let me remind you that his last game at the MLB level was in 2009. Since then, he's been AA and AAA.

Yeah, it sucks he was a first round pick who has not worked out, but trading him does not look like a bad move.

palehozenychicty
12-24-2011, 10:44 PM
For those of you who for some reason want to lament Kenny trading Poreda, let me remind you that his last game at the MLB level was in 2009. Since then, he's been AA and AAA.

Yeah, it sucks he was a first round pick who has not worked out, but trading him does not look like a bad move.

This. Is true.

soxfanreggie
12-25-2011, 12:31 PM
Why bother mentioning Chris Young, Fautino De Los Santos and Clayton Richard? Are we mad at KW for trading Aaron Poreda, Chris Getz and Josh Fields? It is also unbelievable to me that people think Gio would have made it as a White Sox pitcher. After his first 2 seasons in the majors he would have been run out of town. He was brutal and his problems would have been magnified pitching in the Cell.

The hard thing though with any prospect who is traded is that you can't automatically assume that a player would have had the same career - good or bad - if they stayed in their original location. Sometimes it's a tiny adjustment made by a coach. Sometimes it's confidence gained from playing a particular position or slot in the batting order that gives someone needed confidence.

Taking a look at that 2004 draft:

Fields, Gio, and Lumsden - 1st round
Liotta, Whisler, and Lucy - 2nd round

That was definitely an unsuccessful draft for the Sox when it came to those players being impact players for the Sox themselves. Gio became an All-Star for another team and Fields saw time with the big club, but ultimately he couldn't produce at a decent level. Fields also led to us getting Mark Teahen, so I'm very disappointed in that one, Lol. Lumsden was traded away in 2006 to the Royals for MacDougal and is now playing over in China. Liotta was lost to the Royals as well in the 2008 Rule 5 draft. Whisler made his way to the Marlins last year in a trade, but I don't expect him to make waves in Miami anytime soon and instead join Lucy in a post-baseball career.

DumpJerry
12-25-2011, 12:53 PM
The hard thing though with any prospect who is traded is that you can't automatically assume that a player would have had the same career - good or bad - if they stayed in their original location. Sometimes it's a tiny adjustment made by a coach. Sometimes it's confidence gained from playing a particular position or slot in the batting order that gives someone needed confidence.
http://www1.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Chicago+White+Sox+Photo+Day+JfOy5NfPokpl.jpg
Yeah, a few minutes with a new coach never helps......