PDA

View Full Version : Shoeless Joe interview


LITTLE NELL
12-20-2011, 06:24 AM
I've never seen this posted here at WSI.

http://www.blackbetsy.com/theTruth.html

Fenway
12-20-2011, 06:46 AM
I've never seen this posted here at WSI.

http://www.blackbetsy.com/theTruth.html

I visited the Shoeless Joe museum last year.


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1485246163837.2063439.1014362077&type=1&l=b2c91f766f


They made it quite clear that the only reason Joe had problems reading and writing was he never had a chance to get an education....he was working in the mills when he was 8 years old.

The late Jerome Holtzman convinced Selig that Jackson was dirty but when you look at his stats from the 1919 Series you are hard pressed to say he was dogging it.

LITTLE NELL
12-20-2011, 07:27 AM
I visited the Shoeless Joe museum last year.


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1485246163837.2063439.1014362077&type=1&l=b2c91f766f


They made it quite clear that the only reason Joe had problems reading and writing was he never had a chance to get an education....he was working in the mills when he was 8 years old.

The late Jerome Holtzman convinced Selig that Jackson was dirty but when you look at his stats from the 1919 Series you are hard pressed to say he was dogging it.

Joe and Buck Weaver should be reinstated.
Mr. Selig, do the right thing.

I know most of the 8 were in on the fix but a court of law found them innocent. Could you imagine the commissioner of MLB in this day and age still banning the players, there would be lawsuits all over the place.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-20-2011, 07:32 AM
I'm reading a book about Joe Jackson right now. According to this book, several people, including Connie Mack, Jackson's first manager in MLB, offered Jackson a chance to get an education. Jackson wasn't interested. Mack's early A's featured college educated players, including Eddie Plank and Eddie Collins. I think there were a few more too, but their names escape me. Either Mack, or Jackson's manager in Cleveland had Jackson room with an educated fellow, on the hopes that Jackson would pursue literacy. Jackson believed an education wouldn't help him become a better ball player. This is the first book I've ever read on Jackson, so there are probably other opinions on the reasons for Jackson's lack of education.

palehosepub
12-20-2011, 10:52 AM
I'm reading a book about Joe Jackson right now. According to this book, several people, including Connie Mack, Jackson's first manager in MLB, offered Jackson a chance to get an education. Jackson wasn't interested. Mack's early A's featured college educated players, including Eddie Plank and Eddie Collins. I think there were a few more too, but their names escape me. Either Mack, or Jackson's manager in Cleveland had Jackson room with an educated fellow, on the hopes that Jackson would pursue literacy. Jackson believed an education wouldn't help him become a better ball player. This is the first book I've ever read on Jackson, so there are probably other opinions on the reasons for Jackson's lack of education.

What is the name of the book you are reading - is it a new issue?

SI1020
12-20-2011, 11:13 AM
Joe and Buck Weaver should be reinstated.
Mr. Selig, do the right thing.

I know most of the 8 were in on the fix but a court of law found them innocent. Could you imagine the commissioner of MLB in this day and age still banning the players, there would be lawsuits all over the place. I've been touting this book for a long time, apparently with little success. Whatever you (meaning you in the plural) think you know about the Black Sox scandal, just put it aside and read this. The author, Gene Carney unfortunately passed away suddenly in 2009. He was a fine gentleman and a tireless researcher who extended me both kindness and patience.

http://www.amazon.com/Burying-Black-Sox-Baseballs-Succeeded/dp/1574889729

Vernam
12-20-2011, 12:42 PM
Interesting stuff here (http://fcassociates.com/ntjackson.htm), too. Thanks for the link, Little Nell.

Vernam

SI1020
12-20-2011, 01:12 PM
I've never seen this posted here at WSI.

http://www.blackbetsy.com/theTruth.html The author of this article, which appeared in 1949, Furman Bisher, is incredibly enough still working. For years the preeminent sports writer in the SE, known mainly for his work with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. After a brief retirement he is back at work writing columns for the Gwinnett Daily Post, a suburban Atlanta publication.

http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/news/sports/columnists/furman_bisher/

WhiteSox5187
12-20-2011, 01:25 PM
Joe and Buck Weaver should be reinstated.
Mr. Selig, do the right thing.

I know most of the 8 were in on the fix but a court of law found them innocent. Could you imagine the commissioner of MLB in this day and age still banning the players, there would be lawsuits all over the place.

I think that everyone from the 1919 Black Sox scandal should be reinstated whether they cheated or not and it's for this reason: they received a lifetime ban, as their lives are now over so should their suspension.

TommyJohn
12-20-2011, 01:28 PM
I think that everyone from the 1919 Black Sox scandal should be reinstated whether they cheated or not and it's for this reason: they received a lifetime ban, as their lives are now over so should their suspension.

I can't stand this so-called "logic." The official term used by MLB is "permanently ineligible." Permanent means forever.

Fenway
12-20-2011, 01:47 PM
I can't stand this so-called "logic." The official term used by MLB is "permanently ineligible." Permanent means forever.

That is NOT what Landis said

"Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ballgame, no player that undertakes or promises to throw a ballgame, no player that sits in conference with a bunch of crooked players and gamblers where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."

They are dead....they can't play anymore

WhiteSox5187
12-20-2011, 01:51 PM
I can't stand this so-called "logic." The official term used by MLB is "permanently ineligible." Permanent means forever.

My understanding was that they were "banned for life" by Landis, I was unaware they were "permanently ineligible." If they were "banned for life" they should be reinstated, if they are ruled permanently ineligible then they would have to appeal.

Fenway
12-20-2011, 02:07 PM
The man had a gift for storytelling

WnSUVhpKZ5c

Johnny Mostil
12-20-2011, 02:10 PM
The author of this article, which appeared in 1949, Furman Bisher, is incredibly enough still working. For years the preeminent sports writer in the SE, known mainly for his work with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. After a brief retirement he is back at work writing columns for the Gwinnett Daily Post, a suburban Atlanta publication.

http://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/news/sports/columnists/furman_bisher/

OT, but I had not known this. Thanks for pointing it out. I remember reading Bisher when I lived in Atlanta more than 20 years ago. Wikipedia tells me he's 93 years young.

My understanding was that they were "banned for life" by Landis, I was unaware they were "permanently ineligible." If they were "banned for life" they should be reinstated, if they are ruled permanently ineligible then they would have to appeal.

Back on topic (somewhat), and the dead would appeal . . . how?:wink:

Regardless, I'm not sure I understand extending the logic of extending a ban, even a permanent one (and, yes, I know what "permanent" means), beyond death (I'm not willing to recognize Bud Selig as the arbiter for an immortal soul), but, eh, whatever.

Fenway
12-20-2011, 02:24 PM
What is overlooked is that Landis banned the players BEFORE the trial...and then refused to lift the ban when they were found innocent.


March 12, 1921 - "I deeply regret the postponement of these cases. However, baseball is not powerless to protect itself. All of the indicted players have today been placed on the ineligible list."


August 3, 1921 - "Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player that throws a ballgame; no player that undertakes or promises to throw a ballgame; no player that sits in a conference with a bunch of crooked players and gamblers where the ways and means of throwing games are planned and discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."

One of the eight never even went to trial - Fred McMullin

TDog
12-20-2011, 02:34 PM
That is NOT what Landis said
...

Landis announced the reasoning behind his actions in a prepared statement, but officially, the eight players were placed on the "permanently ineligible" list, not the list of "ineligible until you die." The list existed before Landis and even included an umpire from the 19th century. It includes one-time owners who cannot be associated with baseball in an way.

Landis applied it more than 20 times. Gambling was the big issue, but holding out for more money and going to play in Mexico would put a player on the list, too. A few players have been reinstated from the list, including Dickie Kerr, who won two games in the 1919 World Series. Ferguson Jenkins was permanently suspended before being reinstated. I don't know that anyone believed that would stick as a permanent ban. Steve Howe was placed on the list, but removed through arbitration. Pete Rose agreed to be put on the list, in what was effectively a plea bargain.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-20-2011, 06:13 PM
What is the name of the book you are reading - is it a new issue?

It's an older book. I really forgot I purchased it years ago, and found it. It's from 1992. Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball. It's a pretty good read.

TDog
12-20-2011, 06:21 PM
It's an older book. I really forgot I purchased it years ago, and found it. It's from 1992. Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball. It's a pretty good read.

Harvey Frommer, Taylor Publishing Company, Dallas, 1992.

The grand jury testimony in the appendix is interesting.

Nellie_Fox
12-21-2011, 12:15 AM
My understanding was that they were "banned for life" by Landis, I was unaware they were "permanently ineligible." If they were "banned for life" they should be reinstated, if they are ruled permanently ineligible then they would have to appeal.MLB has a "permanently ineligible" list. They don't have a "banned for lifetime" list. And it's a Hall of Fame rule that anyone on the permanently ineligible list cannot be elected to the HOF, MLB does not control the HOF criteria.

eastchicagosoxfan
12-21-2011, 07:44 AM
One factor to remember about this era of ball is that gambling was incredibly pervasive at the time. Rumors abound that several World Series were played on less than the up-and-up. Rumors of impropriety also implicated players as diverse as Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Hal Chase. Heck, at one time, Giants manager John McGraw was part owner of a pool hall in New York. His partner was Arnold Rothstein. I don't recall the year, maybe 1910 or so, New York outlawed gambling on horses, and gamblers immediatly looked to MLB.

Landis took harsh measures, but I'm not aware of many rumors of gamblers influencing baseball after 1925 or so.

doublem23
12-21-2011, 08:43 AM
One factor to remember about this era of ball is that gambling was incredibly pervasive at the time. Rumors abound that several World Series were played on less than the up-and-up. Rumors of impropriety also implicated players as diverse as Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Hal Chase. Heck, at one time, Giants manager John McGraw was part owner of a pool hall in New York. His partner was Arnold Rothstein. I don't recall the year, maybe 1910 or so, New York outlawed gambling on horses, and gamblers immediatly looked to MLB.

Landis took harsh measures, but I'm not aware of many rumors of gamblers influencing baseball after 1925 or so.

Absolutely correct. It's unfortunate that our favorite team was the one that was gutted and scarred by Landis' raid on gambling in baseball, but he correctly took strong measures to keep the public's faith in the legitimacy of baseball. Look at how far boxing has fallen from the public's favor in just a generation, a lot of that fueled by the perception that the sport is fixed.

palehosepub
12-21-2011, 10:04 AM
It's an older book. I really forgot I purchased it years ago, and found it. It's from 1992. Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball. It's a pretty good read.


Thanks, I will pick it up. Sounds like some nice offseason reading.
GB

TheVulture
12-22-2011, 05:12 PM
Nice post.

Shoeless Joe certainly doesn't come off as the dumb hick he is often painted to be.