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Fenway
12-08-2011, 01:42 PM
Just a year ago, JR opened the checkbook with the centerpiece being Adam Dunn.

Dunn was considered the most consistent hitter on the market and with PK coming back it appeared to give the White Sox one of the best #3-#4 combos in MLB because even knowing Dunn would strikeout a lot, in The Cell he seemed to be a lock for 35-40+ homers.

Certainly NOBODY in baseball was predicting he would have the worst season in MLB history. I think JR thinks KW's logic was sound - it just blew up.

Reinsdorf is a lot of things, but he is not stupid. He knows his fanbase are not lemmings like 9 miles north and it will be hard to sell advance tickets for 2012.

The new CBA makes it clear that the White Sox ( along with 14 other clubs ) will be disqualified on a gradual basis from getting any revenue sharing

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/baseball-hot-stove-a-cool-start-jose-reyes-offer-marlins-market-slow-pujols-fielder-article-1.986378#ixzz1fyJ6s2Zk - Bill Madden in the Daily News explained what the new CBA does.

Nobody on this board has any idea what the White Sox bottom line looks like, but we do know that Jerry's partners hang on to their shares.

One thing is obvious - the way the farm system and development is set up ISN'T WORKING. The damage that Dave Wilder caused the team in Latin America may take a generation to recover from. It is complete folly to think KW didn't have some indication that something was rotten - baseball is too small of a world.

JR's refusal to draft any prospect that was represented by Scott Boras has hurt who exactly? Boras spends more on scouting than most clubs and he because of his name will pretty much lock up many of the top prospects.

Last Labor Day I was talking to a former Red Sox scout who now works for the Twins. He flat out said that the White Sox not having their AA franchise in the Eastern League is killing them. The Twins have theirs in Connecticut because of cold weather. (Tigers in Pennsylvania, Indians in Ohio) - The Royals have an A team in DELAWARE for the same reason.

The White Sox claim that having everything clustered in the southeast makes it easier for them - but it is not working.

From a revenue viewpoint - the Tigers are the White Sox equal because Michigan is a one team state - the Twins with Target Field and a new cable contract are also close.

KW is not going anywhere - JR has either signed off or ordered 'rebuilding' so right now KW is not under the gun to win.

I have no doubt that JR has a passion for the game ( look at how he went so public for Miņoso ) but he doesn't seem to have the desire to win like George Steinbrenner did. Now perhaps his partners won't let him - we are not even sure who some of these people are.

The Cubs have several advantages in selling tickets, a downstate and Iowa following, mainstream WGN radio and the 'perception' that before and after the game a fan can hang around Wrigleyville. At USCF it is the game...period.

Perhaps in the end, the White Sox simply need a new owner ( or face of the franchise ) Just look what happened to the Brewers once the Selig family was forced out after the Miller Park fiasco. Milwaukee is the smallest market in MLB with no way to grow and the Brewers are doing just fine.

White Sox fans deserve better than this.

LITTLE NELL
12-08-2011, 01:58 PM
Just a year ago, JR opened the checkbook with the centerpiece being Adam Dunn.

Dunn was considered the most consistent hitter on the market and with PK coming back it appeared to give the White Sox one of the best #3-#4 combos in MLB because even knowing Dunn would strikeout a lot, in The Cell he seemed to be a lock for 35-40+ homers.

Certainly NOBODY in baseball was predicting he would have the worst season in MLB history. I think JR thinks KW's logic was sound - it just blew up.

Reinsdorf is a lot of things, but he is not stupid. He knows his fanbase are not lemmings like 9 miles north and it will be hard to sell advance tickets for 2012.

The new CBA makes it clear that the White Sox ( along with 14 other clubs ) will be disqualified on a gradual basis from getting any revenue sharing

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/baseball-hot-stove-a-cool-start-jose-reyes-offer-marlins-market-slow-pujols-fielder-article-1.986378#ixzz1fyJ6s2Zk - Bill Madden in the Daily News explained what the new CBA does.

Nobody on this board has any idea what the White Sox bottom line looks like, but we do know that Jerry's partners hang on to their shares.

One thing is obvious - the way the farm system and development is set up ISN'T WORKING. The damage that Dave Wilder caused the team in Latin America may take a generation to recover from. It is complete folly to think KW didn't have some indication that something was rotten - baseball is too small of a world.

JR's refusal to draft any prospect that was represented by Scott Boras as hurt who exactly? Boras spends more on scouting than most clubs and he because of his name will pretty much lock up many of the top prospects.

Last Labor Day I was talking to a former Red Sox scout who now works for the Twins. He flat out said that the White Sox not having their AA franchise in the Eastern League is killing them. The Twins have theirs in Connecticut because of cold weather. (Tigers in Pennsylvania, Indians in Ohio) - The Royals have an A team in DELAWARE for the same reason.

The White Sox claim that having everything clustered in the southeast makes it easier for them - but it is not working.

From a revenue viewpoint - the Tigers are the White Sox equal because Michigan is a one team state - the Twins with Target Field and a new cable contract are also close.

KW is not going anywhere - JR has either signed off or ordered 'rebuilding' so right now KW is not under the gun to win.

I have no doubt that JR has a passion for the game ( look at how he went so public for Miņoso ) but he doesn't seem to have the desire to win like George Steinbrenner did. Now perhaps his partners won't let him - we are not even sure who some of these people are.

The Cubs have several advantages in selling tickets, a downstate and Iowa following, mainstream WGN radio and the 'perception' that before and after the game a fan can hang around Wrigleyville. At USCF it is the game...period.

Perhaps in the end, the White Sox simply need a new owner ( or face of the franchise ) Just look what happened to the Brewers once the Selig family was forced out after the Miller Park fiasco. Milwaukee is the smallest market in MLB with no way to grow and the Brewers are doing just fine.

White Sox fans deserve better than this.

Amen to everything you said. In his 30 years of ownership JR for the most part has run the Sox like a medium market team. I'm also not letting the fans off the hook. Take 2006, since teams have started drawing 3,000,000 we have to be one of the only teams after they won the WS not to hit that mark, we came close but no cigar. We are the only big market team not to draw 3,000,000 with many smaller market teams doing that. Look at Milwaukee.
I have brought this up before but I remember Einhorn in one of his first interviews stating that farm systems are over-rated and the Sox would build with free agents and smart trades. How has that worked out in their 30 years of ownership.

Noneck
12-08-2011, 02:20 PM
The argument that has been stated here that the Sox are a mid market team in a major market may be true. If this is the case then ticket prices should be as they are in a mid market city. Having the 4th highest tic price may help the bottom line in the short run but it will not increase a fan base. Maybe use the Miller Park tic, parking and concession pricing to see if it can increase the fan base and eventually turn the club into a true major market club. The Angels were not always treated like a major market club but doing the right things over time turned them into one.

doublem23
12-08-2011, 03:00 PM
Last Labor Day I was talking to a former Red Sox scout who now works for the Twins. He flat out said that the White Sox not having their AA franchise in the Eastern League is killing them. The Twins have theirs in Connecticut because of cold weather. (Tigers in Pennsylvania, Indians in Ohio) - The Royals have an A team in DELAWARE for the same reason.

The White Sox claim that having everything clustered in the southeast makes it easier for them - but it is not working.

The Sox had their minor league teams all clustered in the Southeast while they had the undisputed #1 minor league system in all of baseball, as well.

Jpgr91
12-08-2011, 03:03 PM
I give JR a lot of credit for sinking the amount of money he did into the 2011 team. Even though it didn't work out I think most fans need to remember that they had a very positive outlook heading into the 2011 season. This year the Sox were 5th in payroll and 21st in attendance, the owners of the Sox have a right to run their business however they see fit just as the fans have the right to spend our money however we see fit. If Sox fans really feel that they deserve better they should force a change by refusing to spend their money on the team.

A. Cavatica
12-08-2011, 03:24 PM
I'm also not letting the fans off the hook. Take 2006, since teams have started drawing 3,000,000 we have to be one of the only teams after they won the WS not to hit that mark

I can't speak for the other 2,999,999 but I have not found the team easy to like for the last 5 years. I hated Ozzie's style, and even though I liked some of Kenny's big gambles on paper, his teams always had obvious flaws that he was slow to address.

Fenway
12-08-2011, 03:27 PM
The team could have won 20 in a row last April and May and the weather still would have kept people home.

I have never understood why the Sox didn't open a clubhouse store like the Cubs have at Water Tower if for no other reason than to have a downtown ticket outlet. Even in the worst dark days of the Blackhawks 10 years ago they had Hawkquarters.

But hey a free bobblehead if you get a hotel room at Sox Fest :tongue:


WHITE SOX NEWS
================================================== ==========
December 8, 2011

--> LIMITED-EDITION CREDE BOBBLEHEAD WITH EVERY WEEKEND PASS!






I give JR a lot of credit for sinking the amount of money he did into the 2011 team. Even though it didn't work out I think most fans need to remember that they had a very positive outlook heading into the 2011 season. This year the Sox were 5th in payroll and 21st in attendance, the owners of the Sox have a right to run their business however they see fit just as the fans have the right to spend our money however we see fit. If Sox fans really feel that they deserve better they should force a change by refusing to spend their money on the team.

Fenway
12-08-2011, 03:33 PM
To reach 3,000,000 they would need to average 37,037 a game.

Will NEVER happen with the reduced capacity of the upper deck.

2.4 to 2.6 million is honestly the best they can hope for.



Amen to everything you said. In his 30 years of ownership JR for the most part has run the Sox like a medium market team. I'm also not letting the fans off the hook. Take 2006, since teams have started drawing 3,000,000 we have to be one of the only teams after they won the WS not to hit that mark, we came close but no cigar. We are the only big market team not to draw 3,000,000 with many smaller market teams doing that. Look at Milwaukee.
I have brought this up before but I remember Einhorn in one of his first interviews stating that farm systems are over-rated and the Sox would build with free agents and smart trades. How has that worked out in their 30 years of ownership.

doublem23
12-08-2011, 03:39 PM
To reach 3,000,000 they would need to average 37,037 a game.

Will NEVER happen with the reduced capacity of the upper deck.

2.4 to 2.6 million is honestly the best they can hope for.

Right, except the Sox drew 2.9 million in 2006 and yes, that occurred after the Upper Deck's furthest rows were topped off.

It's nice you're trying to fit in by essentially copying and pasting stuff people have been posting on this board for the last several years, but you're way out of your league. Better stick to topics you know like what the weather is in Boston or some video of a hockey game from 1962.

LITTLE NELL
12-08-2011, 04:17 PM
Right, except the Sox drew 2.9 million in 2006 and yes, that occurred after the Upper Deck's furthest rows were topped off.

It's nice you're trying to fit in by essentially copying and pasting stuff people have been posting on this board for the last several years, but you're way out of your league. Better stick to topics you know like what the weather is in Boston or some video of a hockey game from 1962.


You are right, with the current official capacity of 40,615 and if they sold out every game the Sox would draw 3,289,815.

Fenway should look at his own Red Sox, Fenway Park seats 37,497 and the Red Sox have topped the 3,000,000 mark for the last 4 years.

Fenway
12-08-2011, 04:17 PM
Right, except the Sox drew 2.9 million in 2006 and yes, that occurred after the Upper Deck's furthest rows were topped off.

It's nice you're trying to fit in by essentially copying and pasting stuff people have been posting on this board for the last several years, but you're way out of your league. Better stick to topics you know like what the weather is in Boston or some video of a hockey game from 1962.

double - 2006 they rode the wave of a World Series championship ( teams always get a bump ) - and the team could not sustain the momentum.

I have going to White Sox games since 1981 and I know a lot of people who work at 35th St. They know what some of the problems are but there is little they can do to fix them.

One prime example is the CTA 35th St station. If you get a crowd of more than 25,000 the station simply can not handle it. Addison has the same problem EXCEPT many simply head for a bar, walk to Belmont or whatever to wait the crowd out. That is not really an option on 35th. Getting out of the parking lots after a big crowd is a problem as well.

What really concerns them is how the ratings just bottomed out on radio in 2011 to under 100,000 a game. (14th in baseball) - if fans won't listen for free on radio, they will not buy tickets.

Hitmen77
12-08-2011, 04:45 PM
You are right, with the current official capacity of 40,615 and if they sold out every game the Sox would draw 3,289,815.

Fenway should look at his own Red Sox, Fenway Park seats 37,497 and the Red Sox have topped the 3,000,000 mark for the last 4 years.

I agree with Fenway - the Cell's current seating capacity makes it tough to draw 3,000,000. The official capacity may be 40,615, but it seems to me that most sold out games under the current capacity list attendance at something like 38,000 or 39.000.

It might work for the Red Sox, but very few teams draw like the Red Sox. To get to 3,000,000, the Sox would have to have near sellouts even in cold, weeknight evening games.

You mentioned Milwaukee. Their seating capacity is a little higher: 43,000. So they could be 480,000 shy of total sellouts for the season and still reach 3 million. Also, it could be that their retractable roof gives helps them avoid those miserable wet and cold early season games - making them an easier sell to the public.

Fenway
12-08-2011, 04:57 PM
You are right, with the current official capacity of 40,615 and if they sold out every game the Sox would draw 3,289,815.

Fenway should look at his own Red Sox, Fenway Park seats 37,497 and the Red Sox have topped the 3,000,000 mark for the last 4 years.

Can't even compare the 2 situations.

Fenway is in the heart of the city and draws fans from 5 1/2 states. They are the only game in town. Boston is one of few cities where MLB is king over the NFL in fan loyalty. St. Louis and New York are the others.

LITTLE NELL
12-08-2011, 05:01 PM
Can't even compare the 2 situations.

Fenway is in the heart of the city and draws fans from 5 1/2 states. They are the only game in town. Boston is one of few cities where MLB is king over the NFL in fan loyalty. St. Louis and New York are the others.

That was not the point, you stated the White Sox could not draw 3,000,000 due the lopping off of the upper deck. They can since USCF has more seats than Fenway Park. It won't happen but potentially it can. In fact USCF and Wrigley have about the same amount of seats and we all know that the Cubs draw over 3,000,000.
.

Hitmen77
12-08-2011, 05:02 PM
Just a year ago, JR opened the checkbook with the centerpiece being Adam Dunn.

Dunn was considered the most consistent hitter on the market and with PK coming back it appeared to give the White Sox one of the best #3-#4 combos in MLB because even knowing Dunn would strikeout a lot, in The Cell he seemed to be a lock for 35-40+ homers.

Certainly NOBODY in baseball was predicting he would have the worst season in MLB history. I think JR thinks KW's logic was sound - it just blew up.

Reinsdorf is a lot of things, but he is not stupid. He knows his fanbase are not lemmings like 9 miles north and it will be hard to sell advance tickets for 2012.

The new CBA makes it clear that the White Sox ( along with 14 other clubs ) will be disqualified on a gradual basis from getting any revenue sharing

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/baseball-hot-stove-a-cool-start-jose-reyes-offer-marlins-market-slow-pujols-fielder-article-1.986378#ixzz1fyJ6s2Zk - Bill Madden in the Daily News explained what the new CBA does.

Nobody on this board has any idea what the White Sox bottom line looks like, but we do know that Jerry's partners hang on to their shares.

One thing is obvious - the way the farm system and development is set up ISN'T WORKING. The damage that Dave Wilder caused the team in Latin America may take a generation to recover from. It is complete folly to think KW didn't have some indication that something was rotten - baseball is too small of a world.

JR's refusal to draft any prospect that was represented by Scott Boras has hurt who exactly? Boras spends more on scouting than most clubs and he because of his name will pretty much lock up many of the top prospects.

Last Labor Day I was talking to a former Red Sox scout who now works for the Twins. He flat out said that the White Sox not having their AA franchise in the Eastern League is killing them. The Twins have theirs in Connecticut because of cold weather. (Tigers in Pennsylvania, Indians in Ohio) - The Royals have an A team in DELAWARE for the same reason.

The White Sox claim that having everything clustered in the southeast makes it easier for them - but it is not working.

From a revenue viewpoint - the Tigers are the White Sox equal because Michigan is a one team state - the Twins with Target Field and a new cable contract are also close.

KW is not going anywhere - JR has either signed off or ordered 'rebuilding' so right now KW is not under the gun to win.

I have no doubt that JR has a passion for the game ( look at how he went so public for Miņoso ) but he doesn't seem to have the desire to win like George Steinbrenner did. Now perhaps his partners won't let him - we are not even sure who some of these people are.

The Cubs have several advantages in selling tickets, a downstate and Iowa following, mainstream WGN radio and the 'perception' that before and after the game a fan can hang around Wrigleyville. At USCF it is the game...period.

Perhaps in the end, the White Sox simply need a new owner ( or face of the franchise ) Just look what happened to the Brewers once the Selig family was forced out after the Miller Park fiasco. Milwaukee is the smallest market in MLB with no way to grow and the Brewers are doing just fine.

White Sox fans deserve better than this.

The way JR runs this team has been an enigma for 30 years. He's a passionate fan and yet also a by-the-numbers business man. It's not that he's cheap. He has spent money on big name free agents: Fisk, Belle, Dunn.

Not wanting to put resources into the farm system might be part of the problem. ....including his battles over Boras and "slotting".

Some people also say he's "loyal to a fault". Maybe that has led to too many people in management sticking around even when they're not getting the job done.

double - 2006 they rode the wave of a World Series championship ( teams always get a bump ) - and the team could not sustain the momentum.

I have going to White Sox games since 1981 and I know a lot of people who work at 35th St. They know what some of the problems are but there is little they can do to fix them.

One prime example is the CTA 35th St station. If you get a crowd of more than 25,000 the station simply can not handle it. Addison has the same problem EXCEPT many simply head for a bar, walk to Belmont or whatever to wait the crowd out. That is not really an option on 35th. Getting out of the parking lots after a big crowd is a problem as well.

What really concerns them is how the ratings just bottomed out on radio in 2011 to under 100,000 a game. (14th in baseball) - if fans won't listen for free on radio, they will not buy tickets.

Good points. Over the 31 years of JR's ownership, there have been a series of moves that has made it tough for the team to build up their market share.

First there was the whole SportsVision fiasco in the 1980s while the Cubs were building a national following on WGN. Then there was the bitter fight over the new stadium and many people's unhappiness with the bland design of the new park. The strike hit the Sox more than most teams because of JR's perceived involvement in a season where fans were looking to a possible pennant. The White Flag Trade was a PR disaster.

It's simply tough to come back from that when there is a wildly popular team in the same town.

Winning the WS helped a ton. But you're right that they couldn't sustain the momentum. The problem is that since July 2006 this team has been underachieving for the most part. They faded badly in the 2nd half of '06 and then lost 90 games in '07. They won the division in 2008....just around the same time that the economy melted down. 2009 through 2011 was more maddening inconsistency. In 2011, this team was practically unwatchable. If they fell behind a few runs in the first few innings, the game was essentially OVAH.

The bottom line is that the Sox need SUSTAINED success to become a consistent winner at the gate.

DSpivack
12-08-2011, 05:28 PM
That was not the point, you stated the White Sox could not draw 3,000,000 due the lopping off of the upper deck. They can since USCF has more seats than Fenway Park. It won't happen but potentially it can. In fact USCF and Wrigley have about the same amount of seats and we all know that the Cubs draw over 3,000,000.
.

That's true but how do the Sox get there?

As Hitmen just said, it would have to be through many years of sustained success.

Considering the current ownership and management, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I'm still amazed that in over 100 years, this franchise has never made the playoffs on consecutive seasons.

sox1970
12-08-2011, 05:32 PM
That's true but how do the Sox get there?

As Hitmen just said, it would have to be through many years of sustained success.

Considering the current ownership and management, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I'm still amazed that in over 100 years, this franchise has never made the playoffs on consecutive seasons.

For it not to happen at some point from 1995-2011 in the AL Central, it's pretty sad.

TomBradley72
12-08-2011, 05:56 PM
I don'r really have any issue with JR- he's had his ups and downs- but overall,starting in 2000- the White Sox consistently put a contending team on the field- they were in first place as late as early Sept in 2003, if Thomas and Ordonez stay healthy- they probably win the division in 2004- 2005 and 2006 speak for themselves. They overhauled the ballpark at that time as well- turning one of the ugliest modern ballparks into a very nice facility.

2007 was a complete disaster and I give him credit for not going into rebuilding mode- nice to get back to the postseason in 2008.

But 2009-2011 has been VERY ugly- underachieving teams that somehow were not that "likeable" either- but JR still kept the purse strings open- so any discussion of running the team as a "middle market team" in recent years- I disagree with.

I have a major issue with what they are doing right now- it's bad baseball and bad business. They are stuck with 4 untradeable contracts (Dunn, Peavy, Rios and AJ = ~$50M)- about $20M of that comes off the books after 2012 (AJ, Peavy)- they should have rolled the dice one more time that Dunn, Rios and Peavy could return to career norms- let Buehrle go- but I would have kept Santos- and go for it one more time- by mid season if it's clear that's not going to work- start to dump salaries, etc. through trades to contenders and the let the public rebuilding begin. At that point I would replace Kenny Williams- he's a had a long tenure in the role and accomplished some great things- but there's nothing in his lengthy resume that indicates he's the right guy to be the architect of a complete rebuild.

There is ZERO logic to announcing you're "rebuilding" when it's just not possible based on your payroll/contract situation. If somehow they can dump all those salaries sooner- it may make some sense.

So they have created the worst case sccenario- the perception that they are rebuilding along with the reduced ticket sales/revenues that come with that-but without the reduced payroll.

Idiotic.

captain54
12-08-2011, 06:00 PM
For it not to happen at some point from 1995-2011 in the AL Central, it's pretty sad.

Also kind of sad that the Sox have to battle with a team in town that hasnt won a WS in over a century, and is known for being perennial also rans...and JR and co still haven't manage to climb to the top of the heap in 30 seasons

LITTLE NELL
12-08-2011, 06:03 PM
Also kind of sad that the Sox have to battle with a team in town that hasnt won a WS in over a century, and is known for being perennial also rans...and JR and co still haven't manage to climb to the top of the heap in 30 seasons

What they are really in a battle with is a ballpark and a neighborhood.

DumpJerry
12-08-2011, 06:09 PM
One prime example is the CTA 35th St station. If you get a crowd of more than 25,000 the station simply can not handle it. Addison has the same problem EXCEPT many simply head for a bar, walk to Belmont or whatever to wait the crowd out. That is not really an option on 35th. Getting out of the parking lots after a big crowd is a problem as well.

What really concerns them is how the ratings just bottomed out on radio in 2011 to under 100,000 a game. (14th in baseball) - if fans won't listen for free on radio, they will not buy tickets.
This is a new one. The Red Line station keeps people away? This is new. It is also 100% untrue. For over 50 years, there has been a Green Line at 35th Street which also goes downtown (and you can transfer to the Red or Brown there to go further north). The Metra has opened a station at 35th Street with a special train after games that makes every stop through the south side and south suburbs.

The radio ratings suck because the the guys (Farmio and DJ) who are calling the games are pitiful.

russ99
12-08-2011, 06:12 PM
What they are really in a battle with is a ballpark and a neighborhood.

That battle is more perception than reality.

Other than the old time feel, The Cell is a much better park to watch a game, especially considering view of the action, comfort and amenities.

The other half is improving. Bridgeport is gentrifying. Not a Pilsen yet, but there are much more options in the area after the game, even if you forgo the excellent Bacardi at the park.

Saufley
12-08-2011, 06:20 PM
double - 2006 they rode the wave of a World Series championship ( teams always get a bump ) - and the team could not sustain the momentum.

I have going to White Sox games since 1981 and I know a lot of people who work at 35th St. They know what some of the problems are but there is little they can do to fix them.

One prime example is the CTA 35th St station. If you get a crowd of more than 25,000 the station simply can not handle it. Addison has the same problem EXCEPT many simply head for a bar, walk to Belmont or whatever to wait the crowd out. That is not really an option on 35th. Getting out of the parking lots after a big crowd is a problem as well.

What really concerns them is how the ratings just bottomed out on radio in 2011 to under 100,000 a game. (14th in baseball) - if fans won't listen for free on radio, they will not buy tickets.
As far as listening to a game on the radio I can't. Trying to listen to Farmer and Jackson is like going to the dentist. I'll accept Farmer and someone new but if Jackson stays I won't turn on the radio!!

TomBradley72
12-08-2011, 06:23 PM
This is a new one. The Red Line station keeps people away? This is new. It is also 100% untrue. For over 50 years, there has been a Green Line at 35th Street which also goes downtown (and you can transfer to the Red or Brown there to go further north). The Metra has opened a station at 35th Street with a special train after games that makes every stop through the south side and south suburbs.

The radio ratings suck because the the guys (Farmio and DJ) who are calling the games are pitiful.

I don't know if the redline actually keeps people away- but Fenway's point on the hassle when everyone leaves at the same time is valid.

I'm not an expert- but TV/radio ratings for baseball are driven more by wins and likeability of the franchise- I agree Farmio and DJ are absolutely horrible- but I don't think the rating go back up much unless the team gets better regardless of who's announcing.

On a side note- Fenway always seems to provide solid posts and brings some interesting insights from his connections in broadcasting- I don't get the hostility from some people on these boards. If it's a "Boston" oriented thread- and you're not interested- don't read it and move on.

Fenway
12-08-2011, 06:24 PM
This is a new one. The Red Line station keeps people away? This is new. It is also 100% untrue. For over 50 years, there has been a Green Line at 35th Street which also goes downtown (and you can transfer to the Red or Brown there to go further north). The Metra has opened a station at 35th Street with a special train after games that makes every stop through the south side and south suburbs.

The radio ratings suck because the the guys (Farmio and DJ) who are calling the games are pitiful.

I *know* the Green Line is an option and in fact remember when that was the stop that went to Howard - not the Ryan one. BUT most people have no clue of what is east of the Ryan.

TomBradley72
12-08-2011, 06:26 PM
As far as listening to a game on the radio I can't. Trying to listen to Farmer and Jackson is like going to the dentist. I'll accept Farmer and someone new but if Jackson stays I won't turn on the radio!!

I agree- and probably backing off my earlier post- I only listen to "get information" when I can't watch on TV- I NEVER listen just for the enjoyment factor- which I did when Rooney was here.

DJ belongs with a AAA team- Farmer is pretty bad and DJ makes him unlistenable as well.

asindc
12-08-2011, 06:32 PM
That battle is more perception than reality.

Other than the old time feel, The Cell is a much better park to watch a game, especially considering view of the action, comfort and amenities.

The other half is improving. Bridgeport is gentrifying. Not a Pilsen yet, but there are much more options in the area after the game, even if you forgo the excellent Bacardi at the park.

We know that, but too many casual fans don't. So in this case, perception is reality.

Brian26
12-08-2011, 07:11 PM
What really concerns them is how the ratings just bottomed out on radio in 2011 to under 100,000 a game. (14th in baseball) - if fans won't listen for free on radio, they will not buy tickets.

The radio ratings suck because the the guys (Farmio and DJ) who are calling the games are pitiful.

Gospel. That's it right there. Even in the bad seasons of the late 90s, Rooney and Farmer were fun to listen to on a hot summer's day or riding around in the car. Ever since running Rooney out of town and then the embarrassing Singleton experiment, along with the unbearable amount of sponsorships and ads shoved down the listener's throats since moving to WSCR, the radio broadcasts have been terrible.

Brian26
12-08-2011, 07:13 PM
As far as listening to a game on the radio I can't. Trying to listen to Farmer and Jackson is like going to the dentist. I'll accept Farmer and someone new but if Jackson stays I won't turn on the radio!!

The only guy who could keep Farmer in line was John Rooney. The Sox really need to clean house with all four announcers at this point. The only way Hawk should stay is if they bring back Paciorek.

Brian26
12-08-2011, 07:15 PM
I *know* the Green Line is an option and in fact remember when that was the stop that went to Howard - not the Ryan one. BUT most people have no clue of what is east of the Ryan.

This is true. Most people from the suburbs who take Metra downtown and switch to the Red Line are clueless about the Green Line.

HomeFish
12-08-2011, 07:16 PM
The entire point of dynamic pricing is that they don't have to draw to make a lot of money, right? Perhaps attendance is not the issue we make it out to be here.

Anyway, there is one proven way to draw fans to USCF: win games. Not even the combined powers of Ed Farmer and Chris Singleton can screw that up.

DeadMoney
12-08-2011, 07:30 PM
Sure seems the team/ownership has done OK the past few years, at least according to Forbes. (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html) Heck, take a look who's ahead of us at #9 and their operating income over the past few seasons (and look what they just did).

ode to veeck
12-08-2011, 07:44 PM
Also kind of sad that the Sox have to battle with a team in town that hasnt won a WS in over a century, and is known for being perennial also rans...and JR and co still haven't manage to climb to the top of the heap in 30 seasons

For all his good Reinsdorf did abdicate Chicago to the Cubs, mentally. Sure Einhorn's boneheaded TV moves and the Tribco ownership of the Cubs helped but the Sox dominated Chicago for decades and Reinsdorf's been content with a 2nd banana role for the team in Chicago.

ode to veeck
12-08-2011, 07:46 PM
The only guy who could keep Farmer in line was John Rooney. The Sox really need to clean house with all four announcers at this point. The only way Hawk should stay is if they bring back Paciorek.

Hawk shouldn't stay even if Paciorek returns,

TaylorStSox
12-08-2011, 07:50 PM
What they are really in a battle with is a ballpark and a neighborhood.

We've disagreed about Sox/Cubs stuff in the past, but this is spot. There just isn't anything to do on the South side. Sure, there's a few bars. They're too spread out. There's no strip of entertainment. There's no night life. Wrigley has a destination neighborhood. The area isn't for me. Hell, I don't go north of Armitage unless I'm getting paid for it. Bit, for a lot of people Lakeviews a great place to hang out.

I firmly believe if the Sox moved to the south loop, they'd do better. That's not reality though. Sad but true.

DumpJerry
12-08-2011, 08:05 PM
I park at a friend's house at 35th and Dearborn right by the Green Line station. I see a lot of people using the Green Line, but there is room for more.

TaylorStSox
12-08-2011, 08:10 PM
I park at a friend's house at 35th and Dearborn right by the Green Line station. I see a lot of people using the Green Line, but there is room for more.

I think a lot of people are still scared east of the e way.

DSpivack
12-08-2011, 08:12 PM
I think a lot of people are still scared east of the e way.

That and the Red Line is the busiest of any line on the El, so even if people are aware of the Green Line the Red will still get more traffic.

DumpJerry
12-08-2011, 08:13 PM
I think a lot of people are still scared east of the e way.
Huh? Who is scared of that area? It has a University, Starbucks and police headquarters.

DSpivack
12-08-2011, 08:14 PM
Huh? Who is scared of that area? It has a University, Starbucks and police headquarters.

That might be the reality, but I doubt that that's the perception of most suburbanites attending Sox games.

Goose
12-08-2011, 08:18 PM
Hawk shouldn't stay even if Paciorek returns,

Preach it!

Fenway
12-08-2011, 08:19 PM
Sure seems the team/ownership has done OK the past few years, at least according to Forbes. (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html) Heck, take a look who's ahead of us at #9 and their operating income over the past few seasons (and look what they just did).

Team Value $526 mil
Chicago White Sox are owned by Jerry Reinsdorf, who bought them in 1981 for $20 mil.

Back in 1981 the White Sox and Cubs were valued equally - but today even though the Cubs are worth much more on paper, they have a 98 year old ballpark that had to be addressed and that will cost them at least $300M and most likely a lot more.

Red Barchetta
12-08-2011, 08:25 PM
We've disagreed about Sox/Cubs stuff in the past, but this is spot. There just isn't anything to do on the South side. Sure, there's a few bars. They're too spread out. There's no strip of entertainment. There's no night life. Wrigley has a destination neighborhood. The area isn't for me. Hell, I don't go north of Armitage unless I'm getting paid for it. Bit, for a lot of people Lakeviews a great place to hang out.

I firmly believe if the Sox moved to the south loop, they'd do better. That's not reality though. Sad but true.

I agree and especially after the retro, downtown city ballparks opened, it was apparent the SOX made a huge tactical error. I'm glad the Addison idea never materialized, however the SOX would have done much better in a ballpark north of I55. South loop, West loop, whatever.

A ballpark on 35th street is sort of like in between the city and the suburbs. It doesn't feel like either one.

TaylorStSox
12-08-2011, 08:25 PM
That might be the reality, but I doubt that that's the perception of most suburbanites attending Sox games.

And, used to have projects.

Fenway
12-08-2011, 08:36 PM
And, used to have projects.

Perception sadly overrules logic.

Going north from State and Madison - you go thru River North, Gold Coast, Lincoln Park and Lakeview before getting to Wrigley....going south it gets a little barren after the South Loop. It is much better than it was...but people believe want they want to believe.

Out of town writers don't really understand the city.

What happened was the West Loop heading out to the UC became hot - something nobody saw 25 years ago.

TaylorStSox
12-08-2011, 08:41 PM
Perception sadly overrules logic.

Going north from State and Madison - you go thru River North, Gold Coast, Lincoln Park and Lakeview...going south it gets a little barren after the South Loop. It is much better than it was...but people believe want they want to believe.

What happened was the West Loop heading out to the UC became hot - something nobody saw 25 years ago.

That area huts teams for the same reason. Its been a huge issue with the B1G tourney because out of state fans don't want to go watch a game "in the ghetto." Also, there's nothing to do in the West Loop outside of fine dining. These days I live a mile west of the UC on Washington and Talman. Most Chicagoans think it's nuts.

TaylorStSox
12-08-2011, 08:44 PM
Back to the issue, the perception of the area around the Cell as being ghetto is less of an problem as the lack of an area for entertainment.

Fenway
12-08-2011, 08:55 PM
Does anybody here know if Jeremy Jacobs ( the Sox concession holder ) owns any part of the White Sox? I have heard he does but it isn't documented.

A lot of what he owns is not public as Delaware North is a private family operation.

MARTINMVP
12-08-2011, 09:34 PM
Huh? Who is scared of that area? It has a University, Starbucks and police headquarters.

People not familiar with the neighborhoods around the park are potentially going to think (justifiably or not) that the area east of the ball park is not so great. Plenty of younger people my age (late 20s, early 30s) who grew up in the far south suburbs don't venture around the southside.

We ride along the Ryan to downtown, and never venture off any of the exits.

MARTINMVP
12-08-2011, 09:36 PM
I should add that for lunch last year on Christmas Eve, my father wanted to do something different and took me up to an old deli somewhere on the west side of Bridgeport.

I've never driven through the area, and having been one of those people who a few years ago, believed the hype about the surrounding area not being so great, I was pleasantly surprised. We parked down the street and walked to the deli/cafe, and even while driving around, I never felt unsafe.

Brian26
12-08-2011, 09:59 PM
Hawk shouldn't stay even if Paciorek returns,

Hawk was enjoyable during the Oakland and Seattle series this year with Paciorek by his side. Totally different guy in the booth.

Johnny Mostil
12-08-2011, 10:14 PM
Huh? Who is scared of that area? It has a University, Starbucks and police headquarters.

You might be surprised how many persons don't know this (especially that police HQ is at 35th and Michigan).

TomBradley72
12-09-2011, 08:19 AM
double - 2006 they rode the wave of a World Series championship ( teams always get a bump ) - and the team could not sustain the momentum.

I have going to White Sox games since 1981 and I know a lot of people who work at 35th St. They know what some of the problems are but there is little they can do to fix them.

One prime example is the CTA 35th St station. If you get a crowd of more than 25,000 the station simply can not handle it. Addison has the same problem EXCEPT many simply head for a bar, walk to Belmont or whatever to wait the crowd out. That is not really an option on 35th. Getting out of the parking lots after a big crowd is a problem as well.

What really concerns them is how the ratings just bottomed out on radio in 2011 to under 100,000 a game. (14th in baseball) - if fans won't listen for free on radio, they will not buy tickets.

Saw your posting on this is Talking Baseball- 96,000/game! (less than Seattle or Cincinnati- much smaller markets even if you take into account 2 teams in Chicago)- compared to the Cubs average radio audience- the White Sox have 29% of the audience vs. 71% for the Cubs 230,000+- and that was with a horrible/hopeless Cubs team.

The team is starting to suck in every department- major league level team, minor league system, TV/radio,marketing has grown very "stale" (Mullett Night, Rat Pack, etc.)

SI1020
12-09-2011, 08:37 AM
The Sox had their minor league teams all clustered in the Southeast while they had the undisputed #1 minor league system in all of baseball, as well. That was IIRC around the year 2000 and I don't think the results justified the rating, although obviously it was better then.

SI1020
12-09-2011, 08:46 AM
Can't even compare the 2 situations.

Fenway is in the heart of the city and draws fans from 5 1/2 states. They are the only game in town. Boston is one of few cities where MLB is king over the NFL in fan loyalty. St. Louis and New York are the others. Once upon a time you could include Cincinnati too.

SI1020
12-09-2011, 08:57 AM
Huh? Who is scared of that area? It has a University, Starbucks and police headquarters. I used that L stop for many years of my youth and young adulthood and that was in the bad old days. Never had a problem.

Johnny Mostil
12-09-2011, 09:00 AM
Once upon a time you could include Cincinnati too.

Still today, no? At least in part because the competition is only the Bengals.

I might add Atlanta to the list, though both the Braves and Falcons seem weak in comparison to college football . . .

Hitmen77
12-09-2011, 09:10 AM
On a side note- Fenway always seems to provide solid posts and brings some interesting insights from his connections in broadcasting- I don't get the hostility from some people on these boards. If it's a "Boston" oriented thread- and you're not interested- don't read it and move on.

Well said!
:clap::clap::clap:

Hitmen77
12-09-2011, 09:13 AM
Huh? Who is scared of that area? It has a University, Starbucks and police headquarters.

but that area was very different about 10 years ago. Not everyone is going to keep up with all the changes there.

But, for purposes of this discussion that doesn't matter because crowding on the Red Line isn't what's keeping people away from Sox games.

doublem23
12-09-2011, 09:26 AM
But, for purposes of this discussion that doesn't matter because crowding on the Red Line isn't what's keeping people away from Sox games.

Right, though, to be fair that post was made by the same guy who once gave someone directions to O'Hare Airport on the CTA that involved taking one train, riding a bus for 3 miles, and then getting on another train, so take it with a grain of salt.

kittle42
12-09-2011, 10:30 AM
Right, though, to be fair that post was made by the same guy who once gave someone directions to O'Hare Airport on the CTA that involved taking one train, riding a bus for 3 miles, and then getting on another train, so take it with a grain of salt.

Ha - that was a great thread! I thought for a second I was getting directions to LaGuardia, then realized that would have involved more buses.

PennStater98r
12-09-2011, 10:38 AM
The only guy who could keep Farmer in line was John Rooney. The Sox really need to clean house with all four announcers at this point. The only way Hawk should stay is if they bring back Paciorek.

Not made my way through the whole thread - but I really like Stoney... He's quite solid! You can't be serious Brian.

ilsox7
12-09-2011, 10:45 AM
This is true. Most people from the suburbs who take Metra downtown and switch to the Red Line are clueless about the Green Line.

Most people I know who live in the city are clueless about the Green Line being an option to go to or from a Sox game.

kittle42
12-09-2011, 10:47 AM
Most people I know who live in the city are clueless about the Green Line being an option to go to or from a Sox game.

I've found that the wait at the red line v. walking to the green line and then having to switch anyway downtown evens out time-wise. All four times I've done it over the years, I don't think I've really saved time.

ilsox7
12-09-2011, 10:51 AM
I've found that the wait at the red line v. walking to the green line and then having to switch anyway downtown evens out time-wise. All four times I've done it over the years, I don't think I've really saved time.

I sometimes take the Green home b/c I dislike people and crowds. Red line has a lot of that after a game.

EDIT: I also can walk home from the Roosevelt stop, though Harrison is closest. So transferring is not an issue for me.

amsteel
12-09-2011, 11:07 AM
I would guess a large part of the declining radio ratings is old people don't like the announcers and young people don't listen to the radio.

With MLBTV, clandestine internet streams and the general savvyness of the younger generation, its quite easy to watch games no matter where you are without a TV.

CLUBHOUSE KID
12-09-2011, 11:24 AM
That might be the reality, but I doubt that that's the perception of most suburbanites attending Sox games.

That is true. People hate going east on 35th. I graduated from De La Salle and go to that Starbucks every weekend (sometimes the Jimmy Johns) but people from the burbs will probably not step foot there even people from other parts of the city. The thing is, that area used to be in much mcuh worse than it is now.

TomBradley72
12-09-2011, 11:25 AM
I would guess a large part of the declining radio ratings is old people don't like the announcers and young people don't listen to the radio.

With MLBTV, clandestine internet streams and the general savvyness of the younger generation, its quite easy to watch games no matter where you are without a TV.

That might explain an overall decline in radio ratings for teams in general- but still doesn't explain why the White Sox have lower ratings in comparison to Seattle, etc.

slavko
12-09-2011, 11:36 AM
That might explain an overall decline in radio ratings for teams in general- but still doesn't explain why the White Sox have lower ratings in comparison to Seattle, etc.

Let's not wax too nostalgic about what never was. John Rooney was a better play-by-play than Farmer, but he was not a magnet for listeners, did nothing to help sell the team to the general population.

When trying to figure the "why" of something, all you and I are doing is speculating. We don't really know. What we do know can be measured statistically. Let's hear something about the age demographic of the listeners that are left. That can be stated factually.

Golden Sox
12-09-2011, 12:13 PM
2011 was the 7th year in a row that the White Sox drew over 2 million people. The only reason the bad guys on the northside draw more people is because of its location. I read an article recently with the bad guys owner saying that 38% of the bad guys attendance comes from out of state. I've met numerous people from out of state who were on a baseball trip in Chicago and virtually all of them said the Cell was a better park than the hole on Addison. Fact is most out of towners would rather go to the northside than the Cell because of its bars and nightlife. Believe me people, if you don't think the White Sox are a profitable team, I think your misreading the situation. Reinsdorf would sell this team in a heartbeat if it was a consistant money loser.

gobears1987
12-09-2011, 12:14 PM
Right, except the Sox drew 2.9 million in 2006 and yes, that occurred after the Upper Deck's furthest rows were topped off.

It's nice you're trying to fit in by essentially copying and pasting stuff people have been posting on this board for the last several years, but you're way out of your league. Better stick to topics you know like what the weather is in Boston or some video of a hockey game from 1962.

That 2.9 million was assisted by the fact that people had to buy season tickets in order to buy World Series tickets. If the Sox didn't mandate that, they would've had several hundred less thousand tickets sold throughout he season.

TaylorStSox
12-09-2011, 12:15 PM
Right, though, to be fair that post was made by the same guy who once gave someone directions to O'Hare Airport on the CTA that involved taking one train, riding a bus for 3 miles, and then getting on another train, so take it with a grain of salt.

Was that me?

gobears1987
12-09-2011, 12:15 PM
One prime example is the CTA 35th St station. If you get a crowd of more than 25,000 the station simply can not handle it. Addison has the same problem EXCEPT many simply head for a bar, walk to Belmont or whatever to wait the crowd out. That is not really an option on 35th. Getting out of the parking lots after a big crowd is a problem as well.



That problem is easily solved for many if they walked two extra blocks to take the Green Line.

gobears1987
12-09-2011, 12:20 PM
Huh? Who is scared of that area? It has a University, Starbucks and police headquarters.

Don't forget Jimmy Johns and that amazing popcorn place.

doublem23
12-09-2011, 12:37 PM
Was that me?

No, our Chicago expert from Boston

doublem23
12-09-2011, 12:39 PM
That 2.9 million was assisted by the fact that people had to buy season tickets in order to buy World Series tickets. If the Sox didn't mandate that, they would've had several hundred less thousand tickets sold throughout he season.

Right, I ****ing understand why attendance was so high in 2006, however, the OP I was quoting literally said it was impossible for the Sox to draw more than 2.5-2.6 million people now that the Cell has had it's Upper Deck reduced. I believe this was explained about 30 posts ago.

Here, I am literally copying and pasting this text,

Will NEVER happen with the reduced capacity of the upper deck.

2.4 to 2.6 million is honestly the best they can hope for.

JC456
12-09-2011, 12:44 PM
I see the problem as they are known as the do nothing team. They do nothing to help themselves. Since the WS, they have done nothing to bring fans to the park. Fancy TV and radio adds isn't what they need. They need players to play and as someone already stated, they do things to a fault. Center Field has been a problem since 2006 and IMO, that is still a problem field on this team. And I think Ozzie was the problem. The Sox don't need a big name player, they need a player that will produce and Paul Konerko is really the only guy since Jermain Dye left.

But when they're spinning out of control, they do nothing to gain control of the situation to recover and I'm sorry, it turns many off. Hey, maybe they don't care since the WS. Seems to be what I've been witnessing. And Dunn's performance just echoed that do nothing metality. The dude was horrible, by 1000 times horrible, and the team had no answer and did basically nothing. Is that really a way to treat a fan base? Any fan base? Spend $40 a seat and watch the money sucking vacuum named Dunn strike out four times. Yah-who!

And now for this year, they hire a manager using a person who has no coaching experience. zero. Is that fair to the fan base?

There hitting has been less than a minor league team for four years and the hitting coach never changed. I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.

Winter meetings are over and again, the Sox do nothing. Oh, they traded thier closer who had nothing but upside for nothing

Here's to doing nothing.

doublem23
12-09-2011, 12:46 PM
And now for this year, they hire a manager using a person who has no coaching experience. zero. Is that fair to the fan base?

To be fair, the defending world champs just did the same thing

JC456
12-09-2011, 01:00 PM
To be fair, the defending world champs just did the same thing
Well if the Sox just won a WS I don't think it would be a big deal. Since they've under achieved for so long now, it is!

LITTLE NELL
12-09-2011, 01:12 PM
Right, I ****ing understand why attendance was so high in 2006, however, the OP I was quoting literally said it was impossible for the Sox to draw more than 2.5-2.6 million people now that the Cell has had it's Upper Deck reduced. I believe this was explained about 30 posts ago.

Here, I am literally copying and pasting this text,

Double M, it seems you and me are the only ones that understand that USCFs capacity of 40,615, equates to a potential total attendance of 3,289,815. To all of you that say it can't happen, stranger things have happenned. In 1955 the Brooklyn Dodgers won their first World Series ever. They were the Boys of Summer. You could bet anyone in the country that they would move and had no takers. 3 years later they were the Los Angeles Dodgers. After Wrigley Field crumbles to the ground the Cubs could move to Ohama and the Sox would be the only game in town and sell out every game. Never say never.

JB98
12-09-2011, 02:35 PM
This is true. Most people from the suburbs who take Metra downtown and switch to the Red Line are clueless about the Green Line.

I hope they remain clueless. More room for me on the Green Line. :D:

jdm2662
12-09-2011, 02:49 PM
I hope they remain clueless. More room for me on the Green Line. :D:

Sorry dude, I discovered it three years go. It's a simple two block walk to the Clinton stop...

I did take it back all the way to Oak Park once after a game. It was rather interesting. The Blue Line back to Forest Park never provided such interesting times....

JB98
12-09-2011, 03:11 PM
Sorry dude, I discovered it three years go. It's a simple two block walk to the Clinton stop...

I did take it back all the way to Oak Park once after a game. It was rather interesting. The Blue Line back to Forest Park never provided such interesting times....

I sometimes park in Oak Park and ride the Green all the way in.

I once saw a guy cutting raw meat with a butcher knife on the Green Line. That was interesting.

OK, end of hijack. Back to talking about Reinsdorf, attendance and people being unnecessarily afraid of the Bronzeville area.

Fenway
12-09-2011, 03:27 PM
Right, I ****ing understand why attendance was so high in 2006, however, the OP I was quoting literally said it was impossible for the Sox to draw more than 2.5-2.6 million people now that the Cell has had it's Upper Deck reduced. I believe this was explained about 30 posts ago.

Here, I am literally copying and pasting this text,

I stand by the never happen for drawing 3,000,000.

As stated they sold a lot of season tickets in late 2005 for the chance to get World Series tickets. Many of those seats were in the upper deck and fans tired of being upstairs.

The White Sox seem to hit a wall after 27-28,000 seats are sold. Even with the last few rows removed, it still has the same design flaw that no other park since has.

HOK learned by that mistake starting with Camden Yards. They also had another miss with Tropicana Field.

beasly213
12-09-2011, 04:02 PM
I stand by the never happen for drawing 3,000,000.

As stated they sold a lot of season tickets in late 2005 for the chance to get World Series tickets. Many of those seats were in the upper deck and fans tired of being upstairs.

The White Sox seem to hit a wall after 27-28,000 seats are sold. Even with the last few rows removed, it still has the same design flaw that no other park since has.

HOK learned by that mistake starting with Camden Yards. They also had another miss with Tropicana Field.

And what design flaw would that be? Un obstructed views of the field??

Frater Perdurabo
12-09-2011, 04:38 PM
And what design flaw would that be? Un obstructed views of the field??

I'll let Fenway speak for himself, but others have complained that the corridors from the upper deck concourse to the seating areas open at the bottom of the upper deck seating bowl, meaning that those seated in higher rows have numerous steps to climb, which makes the angle seem steeper and the deck feel higher. In many other stadia, the corridors open in the middle or at the top of the deck.

doublem23
12-09-2011, 04:38 PM
I stand by the never happen for drawing 3,000,000.

As stated they sold a lot of season tickets in late 2005 for the chance to get World Series tickets. Many of those seats were in the upper deck and fans tired of being upstairs.

The White Sox seem to hit a wall after 27-28,000 seats are sold. Even with the last few rows removed, it still has the same design flaw that no other park since has.

HOK learned by that mistake starting with Camden Yards. They also had another miss with Tropicana Field.

Right that's fine, I understand what you're saying as to why it's hard for the Sox to sell 2.7, 2.8, 2.9 million etc. tickets per year, but you literally posted that the max the Sox can draw is in the 2.4-2.6 million range which is simply not true seeing as they beat that handedly just a few seasons ago. Perhaps if I need to phrase this in more East Coast terms you will see what I mean; what you're saying would be akin to me saying, oh, there's no way anyone in the AL East can win the division outside of the Yankees. The Red Sox won the East in 2007, the Rays in 2008. Do you see how that's a silly thing to comment on then?

I understand why the 2006 team had such a bump in attendance, but I certainly don't think it's impossible for the Sox to draw 30,000-35,000 nightly but it just takes a good, fun team to watch which we haven't really had too much of around here since they peaked in in 2005-All-Star Break 2006. Even in bad years, the Sox find a way to pack the place on Friday nights, Saturday afternoons, you gotta give people a reason to come out other nights and without a good, winning team, that's just a tough sell. But not an impossible one.

HomeFish
12-09-2011, 05:20 PM
Are we really arguing about the distinction between "really really hard" and "impossible"? I don't think that's a productive discussion.

Fenway
12-09-2011, 05:28 PM
I'll let Fenway speak for himself, but others have complained that the corridors from the upper deck concourse to the seating areas open at the bottom of the upper deck seating bowl, meaning that those seated in higher rows have numerous steps to climb, which makes the angle seem steeper and the deck feel higher. In many other stadia, the corridors open in the middle or at the top of the deck.

That is exactly the flaw.

HOK Sports spun off and is now a separate company based in KC.

http://www.populous.com/

Notice that they do not showcase USCF or The Trop :tongue:

rainbow6
12-09-2011, 07:47 PM
This thread has me questioning if my support (or lack of anger) towards White Sox ownership is clouded by the World Series championship.

Aside from the "Kids Can Play" year and the infamous White Flag trade, I've felt content that ownership gave the impression that winning was a priority. Acquiring players like Albert Belle, Bartolo Colon (the first time), Freddy Garcia (who if I recall at the time was coveted by many teams), Thome, Peavey, Dunn has consistantly left me with a sense of pride that the Sox were willing to "go for it" and make a big move when necessary.

I'm well aware that those moves pale in comparison to the likes of the Yankees and Red Sox but as it has been pointed out, the Whitesox fanbase has not proven to consistantly support the team at the gate even in the years they have done well (not just the year after.)

I'm content with, and to some extent support Reinsdorf's decision to not sink more money into this roster and allow for a gradual purge of some high commody assets that will ultimatley lead to a revamped minor league system and big league club. When that time comes, history has shown Unlce Jerry will open the purse strings once again...

Then again, I could just be screwed in the head 'cause I grew up watching a Sox team that featured Ivan Calderon as it's most potent offensive threat.

Lip Man 1
12-09-2011, 09:18 PM
I think by the time the farm system is rebuilt and some of the bloated contracts are unloaded the Sox will have new ownership.

Lip

Fenway
12-09-2011, 09:25 PM
I think by the time the farm system is rebuilt and some of the bloated contracts are unloaded the Sox will have new ownership.

Lip

More likely a new chairperson....

http://peop.lead411.com/Jennifer_Einhorn_8012396.html

Jennifer Jacobson, Mr. Einhorn's daughter, is the senior coordinator of special events, including the World Series, for Major League Baseball.

She is very close to Selig.

Remember, Einhorn ceded daily control to JR years ago. Eddie may well own more of the club as he was flush with cash after selling his TVS Network. JR's son is heavily involved with the Bulls but not the Sox. Certainly Jennifer would get quick approval to take over if that is the plan.

Golden Sox
12-09-2011, 09:57 PM
Eddie Einhorn was the one who wanted to move the White Sox to Florida. When the White Sox agreed to stay in Chicago, Einhorn sold virtually all of his White Sox stock to Reinsdorf. Einhorn owns less than 1% of the White Sox today. He moved to Arizona years ago and has basically nothing to do with running the White Sox today.

Brian26
12-09-2011, 11:42 PM
Eddie Einhorn was the one who wanted to move the White Sox to Florida. When the White Sox agreed to stay in Chicago, Einhorn sold virtually all of his White Sox stock to Reinsdorf. Einhorn owns less than 1% of the White Sox today. He moved to Arizona years ago and has basically nothing to do with running the White Sox today.

Where are you getting this from? Einhorn is the Vice-Chairman of the Board of Directors.

captain54
12-10-2011, 12:31 AM
I don'r really have any issue with JR- he's had his ups and downs- but overall,starting in 2000- the White Sox consistently put a contending team on the field- they were in first place as late as early Sept in 2003, if Thomas and Ordonez stay healthy- they probably win the division in 2004- 2005 and 2006 speak for themselves. They overhauled the ballpark at that time as well- turning one of the ugliest modern ballparks into a very nice facility.


Overhauled an ugly modern ballpark that JR built despite fan opinion.

Fenway
12-10-2011, 01:31 AM
Eddie Einhorn was the one who wanted to move the White Sox to Florida. When the White Sox agreed to stay in Chicago, Einhorn sold virtually all of his White Sox stock to Reinsdorf. Einhorn owns less than 1% of the White Sox today. He moved to Arizona years ago and has basically nothing to do with running the White Sox today.

You could not be more wrong.

Einhorn gave his proxy to JR - that is all - but he still owns whatever percentage he had from the get go.

The daughter has risen to the inner circle of MLB.

She is the one to watch.

TomBradley72
12-10-2011, 08:04 AM
Where are you getting this from? Einhorn is the Vice-Chairman of the Board of Directors.

Figurehead role-

slavko
12-10-2011, 09:49 AM
Eddie Einhorn was the one who wanted to move the White Sox to Florida. When the White Sox agreed to stay in Chicago, Einhorn sold virtually all of his White Sox stock to Reinsdorf. Einhorn owns less than 1% of the White Sox today. He moved to Arizona years ago and has basically nothing to do with running the White Sox today.

I think the club is a partnership, so the term stock doesn't apply here. Unless there's been a change? I expressed my opinion some time ago that someone other than JR or EE owns a greater interest but wants his name out of the mix. Indeed, a surrogate's name is probably being used. But JR does have the power to run it. So referring to JR as "the owner" is a stretch too.

Fenway
12-10-2011, 09:58 AM
My understanding is JR was given Einhorn's proxy which made him 'Chairman' but Einhorn still has his entire stake in the team. Remember it was Bowie Kuhn who found Einhorn in the first place. Nobody knew who JR was except Eddie because they went to school together.

Lip Man 1
12-10-2011, 10:38 AM
JR runs the day to day operations of the franchise and has it in his contract that he does not need to check with or get the approval of the other investors before doing anything related to the team.

I was always told he has around 5% of the club and that he is the largest investor.

Lip

Hitmen77
12-10-2011, 10:50 AM
More likely a new chairperson....

http://peop.lead411.com/Jennifer_Einhorn_8012396.html

Jennifer Jacobson, Mr. Einhorn's daughter, is the senior coordinator of special events, including the World Series, for Major League Baseball.

She is very close to Selig.

Remember, Einhorn ceded daily control to JR years ago. Eddie may well own more of the club as he was flush with cash after selling his TVS Network. JR's son is heavily involved with the Bulls but not the Sox. Certainly Jennifer would get quick approval to take over if that is the plan.

Does that mean a return of the "Einhorn 'E' " baseball caps?

Lip Man 1
12-10-2011, 11:27 AM
Hitmen:

I would be very surprised if the speculation along these lines came to pass regarding a new chairman related to the Einhorn family.

I think, and this is simply my opinion, that when JR says, "it's time" (LOL) a completely new outside group is coming in. I'm guessing it will be a company (U.S. Cellular?) and not an individual or small group of individuals.

Lip

SI1020
12-10-2011, 12:37 PM
My understanding is JR was given Einhorn's proxy which made him 'Chairman' but Einhorn still has his entire stake in the team. Remember it was Bowie Kuhn who found Einhorn in the first place. Nobody knew who JR was except Eddie because they went to school together. That's interesting? Why would he need to find Einhorn or anyone else for that matter? The White Sox had several suitors besides even DeBartolo back then. I always thought the way that whole scenario played out stunk to high heaven. Besides, didn't the current ownership start out as the Reinsdorf-Farley group?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19801217&id=aZ4cAAAAIBAJ&sjid=42cEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6488,747646

Fenway
12-10-2011, 01:16 PM
That's interesting? Why would he need to find Einhorn or anyone else for that matter? The White Sox had several suitors besides even DeBartolo back then. I always thought the way that whole scenario played out stunk to high heaven. Besides, didn't the current ownership start out as the Reinsdorf-Farley group?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19801217&id=aZ4cAAAAIBAJ&sjid=42cEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6488,747646

Einhorn was a big NY guy because of TV and that seemed to seal the deal.

Kuhn just hated Italians - as he also stopped Dom DiMaggio from buying the Red Sox after Yawkey died.

Did Farley stay with the Sox ownership group? I know he is a huge booster of Boston College ( I think he went to law school there ) and he donated money to Pawtucket Red Sox when they expanded their stadium a decade ago. He is from Pawtucket.

SI1020
12-10-2011, 01:20 PM
Einhorn was a big NY guy because of TV and that seemed to seal the deal.

Kuhn just hated Italians - as he also stopped Dom DiMaggio from buying the Red Sox after Yawkey died.

Did Farley stay with the Sox ownership group? I know he is a huge booster of Boston College ( I think he went to law school there ) and he donated money to Pawtucket Red Sox when they expanded their stadium a decade ago. He is from Pawtucket. Not sure but I think he's been out of it for a long time now.

Vernam
12-10-2011, 01:37 PM
Kuhn just hated Italians - as he also stopped Dom DiMaggio from buying the Red Sox after Yawkey died.


My half-Italian dad went to his grave believing this, and his animosity to Kuhn only got worse when the Debartolo family built the 49ers dynasty.

Vernam

Fenway
12-10-2011, 01:48 PM
My half-Italian dad went to his grave believing this, and his animosity to Kuhn only got worse when the Debartolo family built the 49ers dynasty.

Vernam

Debartolo may have been a little shady - but DiMaggio????
After retiring, he founded two highly successful manufacturing firms. One made carpeting for automobile interiors; the other made foam padding for automobile seats.

An example of Mr. DiMaggio’s business success was his membership in the Boston Patriots’ original ownership group. He purchased 10 percent of the team in 1960 for $25,000 — and sold it six years later for $300,000. That same year, he made unsuccessful overtures to Red Sox owner Tom Yawkey about buying the team. He also headed a syndicate that tried to purchase the team in 1977, after Yawkey’s death.Kuhn did a lot of damage to the game.

soxfanreggie
12-10-2011, 04:15 PM
I have to disagree with the Chairman: we are rebuilding - or attempting to rebuild. When your own staff is using that term or a similar one, that's probably what is going on. I know that he doesn't want the fans thinking we're going to get bad, but we will have lost two of our best pitchers and gotten one prospect and one draft pick in return.

We'll have to see if we add to that list with Danks or Quentin. Those guys could bring in a haul of prospects to help (as Robin used) "re-load."

It is true that Dunn and Rios could bounce back, but Rios has been very inconsistent. You never know what you'll get form him. Dunn also never gave me the indication that he was just in a funk and could easily get out of it.

SI1020
12-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Debartolo may have been a little shady - but DiMaggio????
Kuhn did a lot of damage to the game. DeBartolo grew up in Youngstown, Ohio. I had family in Youngstown and can tell you that I believe Cicero, Illinois in its heyday was Mayberry compared to Youngstown. It's nickname in the 50's and 60's was "bombtown USA". Car bombings were locally known as "Youngstown tuneups". It was in that environment that Edward DeBartolo began building a construction empire from scratch after WWII. In the initial lean years there were times when he had difficulty making the payroll. In the early 50's his business began to take off as he pioneered the suburban shopping mall. Then he began to attract unwanted attention and was the victim of job site bombings. As late as the early 1990's (he died in 1994) the reclusive elder DeBartolo had his suburban Boardman, Ohio home under round the clock protection. DeBartolo wasn't in the mob, he succeeded in spite of it, in one of the most hostile environments in the country. I am also half Italian, my maternal grandparents born in Marche, Italy. I am proud and happy to be Italian, but certainly not jingoistic about it. DeBartolo wasn't a mobster and he was unfairly treated by Bowie Kuhn and the baseball establishment. There is more I could say about this but not here.

Fenway
12-10-2011, 04:27 PM
Thanks for the background.

DeBartolo was a real estate genius and if he had gotten the team I suspect he would have built a new park closer to downtown and perhaps as part of a shopping complex.





DeBartolo grew up in Youngstown, Ohio. I had family in Youngstown and can tell you that I believe Cicero, Illinois in its heyday was Mayberry compared to Youngstown. It's nickname in the 50's and 60's was "bombtown USA". Car bombings were locally known as "Youngstown tuneups". It was in that environment that Edward DeBartolo began building a construction empire from scratch after WWII. In the initial lean years there were times when he had difficulty making the payroll. In the early 50's his business began to take off as he pioneered the suburban shopping mall. Then he began to attract unwanted attention and was the victim of job site bombings. As late as the early 1990's (he died in 1994) the reclusive elder DeBartolo had his suburban Boardman, Ohio home under round the clock protection. DeBartolo wasn't in the mob, he succeeded in spite of it, in one of the most hostile environments in the country. I am also half Italian, my maternal grandparents born in Marche, Italy. I am proud and happy to be Italian, but certainly not jingoistic about it. DeBartolo wasn't a mobster and he was unfairly treated by Bowie Kuhn and the baseball establishment. There is more I could say about this but not here.

Slats
12-10-2011, 07:08 PM
Laugh all you want - I'm going to go out a limb here and predict that we will make the playoffs. With the team - as it stands.

I see Dunn playing in the field a ton more. Quentin and Rios could be great players - if Ventura lights a fire under their rears. I see this more of a HR and doubles team - than Ozzyball. Ventura will be a great manager. I think he was a wise pick for the players we currently have.

Pitching wise - we have the second best Rotation in the division. We also have some top notch relievers. Coop is one of the best pitching coaches in MLB - it will be interesting to see how big of a star Sale turns out to be.

This is going to be a damned good team. We will make the playoffs. :gulp:

Lip Man 1
12-10-2011, 07:25 PM
Farley was part of the original group with JR, he left after Veeck signed those three free agents (with DeBartolo's money). Farley didn't believe the Sox should be spending that type of money on free agents and didn't want to be obligated to them money-wise.

History shows it was probably a good thing for everyone that he left.

Lip

SportsPg
12-10-2011, 07:26 PM
Ummm...I don't think so. We just lost our closer and our most durable, if not best starting pitcher. We got nothing in return that will help us this year. Maybe Addison Reed is ready to close...maybe he is a AA pitcher at best in 2012, we don't know.

Hitting - Dunn, Rios, Beckham and Morel were terrible to sub-par hitters last year. The odds of them rebounding to merely average are very low. We need them to be better than that. Then there's the fact that Quentin will probably be dealt. I know Viciedo will take his spot, but we've only seen about 150AB of Dayan - who knows what he'll be like for a full season? PK is not getting any younger, last year he was superman and we still were mediocre. Can he be superman again? A-Ram is good, otherwise...meh...

Starting pitching...Danks (maybe), Floyd, Peavy (until he gets hurt...again), Humber and Sale...we don't have a Verlander #1 SP type. Every great team in the AL does except Texas - who can hit their way out of trouble.

I don't see us beating Detroit at all. Maybe we come in 2nd because the Indians, Royals and Twins are not ready. Unfortunately I think we go about 80-82, 14 games back or so from the Tigers by the end of next season.

I'm more interested to see what prospects KW gets when he trades Danks, Quentin and maybe even PK. Let's face it, we need a makeover...now is the time.

I've been a White Sox fan since I saw Chet Lemon playing OF for the South Side Hitmen in 1977 (He was my favorite player as a kid). Attending game one of the 2005 World Series was one of the five best things ever in my life. Having said that...I don't see much hope this year...I need a beer...sigh...:gulp:


Laugh all you want - I'm going to go out a limb here and predict that we will make the playoffs. With the team - as it stands.

I see Dunn playing in the field a ton more. Quentin and Rios could be great players - if Ventura lights a fire under their rears. I see this more of a HR and doubles team - than Ozzyball. Ventura will be a great manager. I think he was a wise pick for the players we currently have.

Pitching wise - we have the second best Rotation in the division. We also have some top notch relievers. Coop is one of the best pitching coaches in MLB - it will be interesting to see how big of a star Sale turns out to be.

This is going to be a damned good team. We will make the playoffs. :gulp:

SI1020
12-10-2011, 08:00 PM
Farley was part of the original group with JR, he left after Veeck signed those three free agents (with DeBartolo's money). Farley didn't believe the Sox should be spending that type of money on free agents and didn't want to be obligated to them money-wise.

History shows it was probably a good thing for everyone that he left.

Lip Wow. He left even earlier than I thought.

kittle42
12-11-2011, 10:59 AM
Laugh all you want - I'm going to go out a limb here and predict that we will make the playoffs. With the team - as it stands.

I see Dunn playing in the field a ton more. Quentin and Rios could be great players - if Ventura lights a fire under their rears. I see this more of a HR and doubles team - than Ozzyball. Ventura will be a great manager. I think he was a wise pick for the players we currently have.

Pitching wise - we have the second best Rotation in the division. We also have some top notch relievers. Coop is one of the best pitching coaches in MLB - it will be interesting to see how big of a star Sale turns out to be.

This is going to be a damned good team. We will make the playoffs. :gulp:

I'm not laughing. All teams need fans like this. I'm sure that season before the Tigers won, what, 51 games or something, they had fans who thought they could win the World Series. I used to think the same when our pitching staff was anchored by Melido Perez, Jerry Reuss, and the like.

Wealz
12-12-2011, 06:27 PM
Think it was 15 years ago during the wrongful death trial of his assistant, Sherry Berto, that Reinsdorf said he turned down a billion dollar offer from Comcast for the Sox, Bulls, and half of the United Center.

I can foresee a scenario where the Cubs and Hawks start their own network and Comcast buys the Sox, Bulls, and half the UC in order to keep the Sox and Bulls from signing a lucrative deal with Fox Sports and putting an end to Comcast Sports Net.

doublem23
12-14-2011, 01:24 PM
I can foresee a scenario where the Cubs and Hawks start their own network and Comcast buys the Sox, Bulls, and half the UC in order to keep the Sox and Bulls from signing a lucrative deal with Fox Sports and putting an end to Comcast Sports Net.

This may just be an internet rumor (the best kind!) but I thought that Reinsdorf's son is interested in staying with the Bulls after Jerry passes away, but that he wasn't as interested in keeping the Sox.

Lip Man 1
12-14-2011, 04:34 PM
Double:

JR himself has said numerous times that his family is not interested in being a part of the Sox when he leaves. That was a few years ago, the situation might have changed but that's the last he said about the matter that I know of.

Lip

thechico
12-14-2011, 06:34 PM
Double:

JR himself has said numerous times that his family is not interested in being a part of the Sox when he leaves. That was a few years ago, the situation might have changed but that's the last he said about the matter that I know of.

That's interesting. Wasn't it JR's son who came home one day and declared himself a Sox fan, which led to JR's eventual interest in the team?

Of course, it is one thing to be want to be a fan, another to want to be an owner.

DSpivack
12-14-2011, 06:43 PM
That's interesting. Wasn't it JR's son who came home one day and declared himself a Sox fan, which led to JR's eventual interest in the team?

Of course, it is one thing to be want to be a fan, another to want to be an owner.

Is that the same son that Lip and others have said is in line to take over the Bulls one day?

Lip Man 1
12-14-2011, 08:37 PM
Yes.

Chico, don't know and never heard anything about his son saying he was a fan and that acted as a catalyst for JR to buy the team. I know that JR was actually part of a group trying to get the Mets before the Sox situation opened up. (Einhorn was trying to get the Padres)

Lip