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View Full Version : The Chicago baseball atmosphere for the near future


thomas35forever
12-07-2011, 05:53 PM
It seems there will be some contrasting times in Chicago next summer. Not so much regarding results on the field (I think both teams are destined for mediocre to bad years), but the way people can get excited for these teams. The Sox have entered a rebuilding period and are getting rid of some big and likeable names. Meanwhile, the Cubs have reinvented their front office with some people who have had success at the Major League level.

What's my point here? Even if there's no postseason baseball in Chicago next fall, Cubs fans have a lot more to look forward to right now than Sox fans for the very reasons I stated above. This is also where failing to capitalize on that world championship as far as winning fans over hurts. We all know the media in this town is generally pro-Cubs, so that's not helping things for us either.

Wrigley will continue to sell out just because it's Wrigley and the Cubs will be billed as the team with the more promising future. Given the events of the past two days, we should know what Comiskey is going to be like this summer. This has played out before. Generally, I wouldn't see this as a problem because the Sox have remained somewhat competitive over the past few seasons until the bottom falls out sometime toward the end of summer. However, our reputation is going to get crushed because no one thinks the Sox will compete this year and unless we pull off an improbable run towards the playoffs, that will hold true.

Not being negative here. I'm just trying make sense of what I think is coming.

hi im skot
12-07-2011, 05:54 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8fp3s7nAF1qdcs5lo1_500.png

asindc
12-07-2011, 05:59 PM
It seems there will be some contrasting times in Chicago next summer. Not so much regarding results on the field (I think both teams are destined for mediocre to bad years), but the way people can get excited for these teams. The Sox have entered a rebuilding period and are getting rid of some big and likeable names. Meanwhile, the Cubs have reinvented their front office with some people who have had success at the Major League level.

What's my point here? Even if there's no postseason baseball in Chicago next fall, Cubs fans have a lot more to look forward to right now than Sox fans for the very reasons I stated above. This is also where failing to capitalize on that world championship as far as winning fans over hurts. We all know the media in this town is generally pro-Cubs, so that's not helping things for us either.

Wrigley will continue to sell out just because it's Wrigley and the Cubs will be billed as the team with the more promising future. Given the events of the past two days, we should know what Comiskey is going to be like this summer. This has played out before. Generally, I wouldn't see this as a problem because the Sox have remained somewhat competitive over the past few seasons until the bottom falls out sometime toward the end of summer. However, our reputation is going to get crushed because no one thinks the Sox will compete this year and unless we pull off an improbable run towards the playoffs, that will hold true.

Not being negative here. I'm just trying make sense of what I think is coming.

As opposed to our FO officials?

BleacherBandit
12-07-2011, 06:03 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8fp3s7nAF1qdcs5lo1_500.png

Attendance matters, and he has a point. I don't really care about the Cubs-Sox juxtaposition. But by missing out on Buehrle, we will lose some attendants. Kenny has also (finally!) used the term "rebuilding". People understand that concept. Most importantly, bandwagon fans understand that concept, too.

GoGoCrede
12-07-2011, 06:10 PM
Attendance matters, and he has a point. I don't really care about the Cubs-Sox juxtaposition. But by missing out on Buehrle, we will lose some attendants. Kenny has also (finally!) used the term "rebuilding". People understand that concept. Most importantly, bandwagon fans understand that concept, too.

Why do they need to understand it? Bandwagon fans still create revenue.

DSpivack
12-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Why do they need to understand it? Bandwagon fans still create revenue.

I think his point is that casual fans understand rebuilding=i.e. they won't be coming to USCF in 2012.

DumpJerry
12-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Meanwhile, the Cubs have reinvented their front office with some people who have had success at the Major League level.
You mean "front office officials who rode the wave of the successful acquisitions of their predecessors," right?

Things will be fine. Remember, back in the 1970's both teams were crap, the Wrigleys owned the Cubs so they were not the toast of the town-people went to the ballpark to have fun at the game. It wasn't life or death back then.

I think the Sox will be better than some of the more pessimistic people here think they will be.

BleacherBandit
12-07-2011, 06:15 PM
Why do they need to understand it? Bandwagon fans still create revenue.

Bandwagon fans will not attend games next season if we do not contend. At least that's my theory about what the term "bandwagon" implies.

g0g0
12-07-2011, 06:16 PM
The Cubs FO has definitely been ugraded, but they aren't going to play the games. The team right now is still ****.

GoGoCrede
12-07-2011, 06:16 PM
I think his point is that casual fans understand rebuilding=i.e. they won't be coming to USCF in 2012.

I just don't like the notion that anyone who buys a ticket is a lesser fan, although that may not have been his point. I'm a much more recent fan than most on here, so it's a bit of a touchy point with me.

BleacherBandit
12-07-2011, 06:25 PM
I just don't like the notion that anyone who buys a ticket is a lesser fan, although that may not have been his point. I'm a much more recent fan than most on here, so it's a bit of a touchy point with me.

And it wasn't my point. You're not a bandwagon fan. You've been a regular on a White Sox internet forum for years so in my definition you are not a bandwagon fan. Bandwagon fans consist of those whose attendance is contingent on short-term success. If the White Sox are not successful next year those fans, by definition, will not show up. "Rebuilding" has become synonymous with the opposite of success. Therefore, I am predicting that the Sox will lose revenue next year.

robertks61
12-07-2011, 06:27 PM
Regardless, I just piad my season ticket first installment and plan on having fun at the ballpark.

GoGoCrede
12-07-2011, 06:27 PM
And it wasn't my point. You're not a bandwagon fan. You've been a regular on a White Sox internet forum for years so in my definition you are not a bandwagon fan. Bandwagon fans consist of those whose attendance is contingent on short-term success. If the White Sox are not successful next year those fans, by definition, will not show up. "Rebuilding" has become synonymous with the opposite of success. Therefore, I am predicting that the Sox will lose revenue next year.

I know the right thing to do is stick with your team the whole time, but I don't know that I can blame people who, in this economy, choose not to pay for an inferior product, especially considering how fans were reamed out by management for not showing up.

DSpivack
12-07-2011, 06:57 PM
And it wasn't my point. You're not a bandwagon fan. You've been a regular on a White Sox internet forum for years so in my definition you are not a bandwagon fan. Bandwagon fans consist of those whose attendance is contingent on short-term success. If the White Sox are not successful next year those fans, by definition, will not show up. "Rebuilding" has become synonymous with the opposite of success. Therefore, I am predicting that the Sox will lose revenue next year.

I don't see anything wrong with being a casual fan. Obviously those kinds of people won't be joining an internet message board to discuss the team, but that doesn't make them inherently bad fans, baseball just doesn't mean as much to them.

When I think bandwagon I think of someone blowing in the wind between Sox and Cubs depending on who is the better team that year, not necessarily someone who is more likely to attend when the team is winning. But maybe that's just splitting hairs, and maybe I only think that because in my mind the term bandwagon fan has negative connotations in my head.

GoGoCrede
12-07-2011, 07:13 PM
I don't see anything wrong with being a casual fan. Obviously those kinds of people won't be joining an internet message board to discuss the team, but that doesn't make them inherently bad fans, baseball just doesn't mean as much to them.

When I think bandwagon I think of someone blowing in the wind between Sox and Cubs depending on who is the better team that year, not necessarily someone who is more likely to attend when the team is winning. But maybe that's just splitting hairs, and maybe I only think that because in my mind the term bandwagon fan has negative connotations in my head.

Thank you, great post. Frankly I'm uncomfortable with the term in general, because who are any of we to determine how much of a fan someone is? We can either have people show up to increase revenue, or we can bitch when no one shows up. I prefer the former, although I do enjoy lower ticket sales.

DSpivack
12-07-2011, 07:16 PM
Thank you, great post. Frankly I'm uncomfortable with the term in general, because who are any of we to determine how much of a fan someone is? We can either have people show up to increase revenue, or we can bitch when no one shows up. I prefer the former, although I do enjoy lower ticket sales.

Well, some of that may be justifying my own habits, as I only make it to about 5 games per year and was at just one game last season--and only then because the ticket was free.

GoGoCrede
12-07-2011, 07:18 PM
Well, some of that may be justifying my own habits, as I only make it to about 5 games per year and was at just one game last season--and only then because the ticket was free.

Eh, I only went to 4 because I was broke and busy studying. I don't think our respective "fan ratings" are affected because of it. As it says in the WSI rules, we all go to as many games as finances/time allow. I really can't judge anyone who doesn't go for monetary reasons. Frankly, the churros haven't been good enough to justify the expense! :tongue:

ZombieRob
12-07-2011, 07:21 PM
The Cubs FO has definitely been ugraded, but they aren't going to play the games. The team right now is still ****.

The way I see your team at least as a sense of direction, as I see it Ken Williams does not. If he's going to rebuild. That means the Sox most worth while asset would be Konerko.

BleacherBandit
12-07-2011, 07:28 PM
Eh, I only went to 4 because I was broke and busy studying. I don't think our respective "fan ratings" are affected because of it. As it says in the WSI rules, we all go to as many games as finances/time allow. I really can't judge anyone who doesn't go for monetary reasons. Frankly, the churros haven't been good enough to justify the expense! :tongue:

See, I only went to 4 games last year, too. I was never making a remark about loyalty or genuineness or personal finance. If "real" fans are not going to games because it is unjustifiable in their eyes to spend money on a cut-rate product, the rest of the fans will follow.

EDIT: There are some notable exceptions, however. We all know that the Cubs draw many attendees because they have the added benefit of an economically vibrant and highly accessible neighborhood for their main contingency.

Moses_Scurry
12-07-2011, 07:36 PM
As I get older I find that life is too short to worry about this ****. I felt this way in the late '80's with those horrible teams. They didn't even have a Konerko to hang their hats on. Then came 1990 and things were pretty good for awhile. The late '90's also were terrible. Then came 2000. I'm fully expecting the next year or two to blow for us Sox fans. I'm resigned to it. However, I also am confident that there will be another 1990 or 2000. Hopefully it happens sooner rather than later. I also hope that it leads to a more sustained period of success in terms of division championships.

It is important to note that there is no Yankee or Cardinal team in the AL Central (i.e. a team that is almost always successful and has few down periods). No teams in the central are positioned to dominate. There is no reason the Sox can't rise again with a youth injection in a couple years. I don't know if I trust Kenny to do it, but I don't think he'll be around much longer if the team keeps stinking.

chisoxfanatic
12-07-2011, 07:41 PM
I know the right thing to do is stick with your team the whole time, but I don't know that I can blame people who, in this economy, choose not to pay for an inferior product, especially considering how fans were reamed out by management for not showing up.
That's pretty much where I am sitting here. This past summer, I only went to 3 games (didn't pay for any of the tickets) and spent a grand total of under $30 at the ballpark. It allowed me to do something that I am so focused on doing: put a huge dent in my student loans. I'll most likely be doing something similar next summer, and if I play things right, my student loans will be entirely paid off at about this time next year!

russ99
12-07-2011, 07:54 PM
As I get older I find that life is too short to worry about this ****. I felt this way in the late '80's with those horrible teams. They didn't even have a Konerko to hang their hats on. Then came 1990 and things were pretty good for awhile. The late '90's also were terrible. Then came 2000. I'm fully expecting the next year or two to blow for us Sox fans. I'm resigned to it. However, I also am confident that there will be another 1990 or 2000. Hopefully it happens sooner rather than later. I also hope that it leads to a more sustained period of success in terms of division championships.

It is important to note that there is no Yankee or Cardinal team in the AL Central (i.e. a team that is almost always successful and has few down periods). No teams in the central are positioned to dominate. There is no reason the Sox can't rise again with a youth injection in a couple years. I don't know if I trust Kenny to do it, but I don't think he'll be around much longer if the team keeps stinking.

Heck yeah.

I hope they keep Paulie, as even if we slide down into the dire times, it's important to have a fan favorite on the roster.

Still going to give them a chance next year. I went to 14 games last season, probably go to 14 games next year.

If anything, we're moving forward after that stinker of a season, and some new blood is much needed.

TomBradley72
12-07-2011, 08:04 PM
I only went to 2 White Sox games this year- the fewest since I became a fan in 1971- I doubt I'll go to any more in 2012- they just don't really earn my business right now- I don't like the roster make up (I especially don't like Peavy, Dunn or Rios- and it's not just their production), I have zero faith in Kenny Williams- tired of his tough talk/mean looks/bluster- he had a very good run as a GM- but 10+ years is a long tenure, I think it's time for a change.

I never mind rebuilding periods that involve young,talented players while you're saving on payroll- but they should have waited until mid-2012 to announce "we're rebuilding" since they are stuck with so much payroll anyway- Peavy and AJ come off the books after 2012- rebuild then- really no point to starting that process now. Even without Buehrle- if Rios/Dunn/Peavy return to career norms- they are contenders in their division- not so much now that they've dumped their closer and weakened their bullpen-especially assuming Sale moves to a starting role.

They are still my team- but it's not worth the 5-6 hour commitment and the high ticket and beer prices- I'll go to a few games at the Cell- a few more at Miller Park- but they've kind of lost me over the past few years.

SI1020
12-07-2011, 08:17 PM
I don't know if I trust Kenny to do it, but I don't think he'll be around much longer if the team keeps stinking. I wish I could believe that.

Moses_Scurry
12-07-2011, 08:34 PM
I wish I could believe that.

I think he'll quit before he is fired, but I do think he'll quit if the team continues to suck.

TDog
12-07-2011, 09:04 PM
... Meanwhile, the Cubs have reinvented their front office with some people who have had success at the Major League level. ...

Remember when everybody thought the Cubs were going to the World Series, and, and everyone thought they had as much talent as anyone in baseball, and, and, they hired someone who everyone thought was the best manager in baseball.

That was awesome.

I'm not so sure things will go as badly for the White Sox as so many here seem to believe, and even if I cared, I would not be not impressed with the future of the Cubs.

DumpJerry
12-07-2011, 11:24 PM
Regardless, I just piad my season ticket first installment and plan on having fun at the ballpark.
I did the same thing. It's fun being at the ballpark. When the Sox season no longer matters, it's much easier to relax because you're not living or dying on each pitch.

cards press box
12-08-2011, 02:21 AM
I did the same thing. It's fun being at the ballpark. When the Sox season no longer matters, it's much easier to relax because you're not living or dying on each pitch.

Me, too. The Sox may have their ups and downs while they retool (or rebuild) but that's OK. It's necessary every now and then to infuse young talent into the system. The Sox have had better drafts as of late and just dealt for a top prospect in Nestor Molina (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=molina001nes). And, in my view, the Sox just hired a manager who will do fine.

The Sox will do OK, too, in the long term and hopefully the short term as well. Even with Buerhle's departure, the Sox rotation still has potential to be strong next year.

gobears1987
12-08-2011, 06:13 AM
I don't care about attendance beyond the point that lower attendance will likely lead to a lower payroll. I know a lot of diehard Sox fans who are cutting back next year because they don't want to pay some of the highest prices in baseball to watch Adam Dunn wear a golden sombrero.

DumpJerry
12-08-2011, 07:34 AM
Me, too. The Sox may have their ups and downs while they retool (or rebuild) but that's OK. It's necessary every now and then to infuse young talent into the system. The Sox have had better drafts as of late and just dealt for a top prospect in Nestor Molina (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=molina001nes). And, in my view, the Sox just hired a manager who will do fine.

The Sox will do OK, too, in the long term and hopefully the short term as well. Even with Buerhle's departure, the Sox rotation still has potential to be strong next year.
Be careful there, young man. Keep talking like that and the WSI "experts" will come down hard on you for being foolish.

Oh, you forgot to mention that the Sox' infield is pretty damn solid.:D:

g0g0
12-08-2011, 10:32 AM
The way I see your team at least as a sense of direction, as I see it Ken Williams does not. If he's going to rebuild. That means the Sox most worth while asset would be Konerko.

Hopefully Dunn comes around as it would definitely be bad for your best asset to be a 35 year old 1B on the downside of his career. Buerhle goes definitely hurts.

TaylorStSox
12-09-2011, 05:31 PM
I think he'll quit before he is fired, but I do think he'll quit if the team continues to suck.

I don't think there's a GM in any sport who cares about his organization as much as Kenny Williams. I truly believe that. For that reason, he will always have my gratitude. His time may be up,but I think he might have another run in him. I'm more optimistic about our future than most. I also understand the frustration of the fanbase.

guillensdisciple
12-09-2011, 06:28 PM
Both teams are going to be bad for the next four years so meh.