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DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:47 PM
JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Santos traded to Blue Jays
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:48 PM
jonmorosi Jon Morosi
Sergio Santos traded to #BlueJays, sources tell @Ken_Rosenthal and me. #WhiteSox
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


jonmorosi Jon Morosi
#WhiteSox acquire Nestor Molina from #BlueJays for Sergio Santos.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

amsteel
12-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Welcome to rebuilding?

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Jon_Heyman Jon Heyman
Looks like white sox rebuilding has begun with acquisition of top pitching prospect nestor molina from jays for sergio santos
54 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply


jonmorosi Jon Morosi
Sergio Santos for Nestor Molina communicates one thing in Chicago: The #WhiteSox tear-down/rebuild is on. #BlueJays
46 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Who?

soxnut1018
12-06-2011, 12:50 PM
Let the rebuilding begin. I do like Molina.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:51 PM
Molina has unreal peripherals, but the scouting reports don't match up with the results. Really wasn't on any top 20 prospect lists going into 2011. Unsure where he would fit currently.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:52 PM
ChiTribRogers Phil Rogers
Molina is a 23-year-old Venezuelan with a big future. This is the start of a series of deals for the #white sox, setting up Danks trade.
48 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

hawkjt
12-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Weird. Sergio only making 1 million next year.
Molina not rated in top ten of Jays system.

Sure hope that Kenny knows something.
Peavy to close?

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Sickels' most current blurb. Has him as the Jays 2nd best prospect behind D'Arnaud.

2) Nestor Molina, RHP, Grade B+: Ranking the Blue Jays pitching prospects is quite difficult. Although Molina hasn't received as much press as some of the other guys, his performance was impeccable, I think his stuff is underrated, and he'll get to the majors sooner than the others. Despite his season, he is still underrated by a lot of people.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/11/30/2601596/toronto-blue-jays-top-20-prospects-for-2012

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:53 PM
ChiTribRogers Phil Rogers
Molina last season was 12-3 with a 2.21 ERA between A/AA. He comes highly recommended by Marco Paddy, #whitesox's new assistant to GM.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

dwitt76
12-06-2011, 12:53 PM
BOOOOOOOOO this!

soxnut1018
12-06-2011, 12:54 PM
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
The numbers of Nestor Molina, the pitcher acquired by CWS today in Santos deal, are other-wordly: 16 walks/148 Ks in 130.1 IP in Class A/AA
1 minute ago

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:55 PM
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
The numbers of Nestor Molina, the pitcher acquired by CWS today in Santos deal, are other-wordly: 16 walks/148 Ks in 130.1 IP in Class A/AA
1 minute ago

Indeed. Fantastic peripherals. I like it.

moochpuppy
12-06-2011, 12:56 PM
The kid doesn't give up the long ball either....14 HR is 292.2 minor league innings.

Bucky F. Dent
12-06-2011, 12:57 PM
This Molina kid damned well better be lights out!

sonofab..............!

PKalltheway
12-06-2011, 12:57 PM
Indeed. Fantastic peripherals. I like it.
Mark Gonzales just tweeted his stats as well. They are impressive. However, how close is he to being major-league ready?

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 12:57 PM
I dont know about this.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:57 PM
Addison Reed, welcome to the closer role.

The Sox top prospect is no longer a relief pitcher. Praise Jebus.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Mark Gonzales just tweeted his stats as well. They are impressive. However, how close is he to being major-league ready?

Barely touched double AA. A year minimum.

delben91
12-06-2011, 12:59 PM
The fact that Santos was the first move tells me the front office is all in (pardon the phrase) on rebuilding vice retooling. Dealing Danks or TCQ could be a "retooling" move, but Santos was the type of cheap, cost-controlled prospect that would be part of a re-tooled team.

I should add I'm ok with this if they really go full-bore in rebuilding this team and system. None of this halfway stuff.

Domeshot17
12-06-2011, 01:00 PM
This stings, but not as much as the Danks trade will hurt. I really do not trust Kenny with a full rebuild. This trade indicates that is coming. You usually don't start a full rebuild by dealing a young pitcher you have many years of cost control over.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2011, 01:00 PM
If the Sox are willing to take the fall out, let them go "all in" with rebuilding. No halfway measures...everybody goes.

That said it's going to be a desolate next few years to say nothing about legit questions as to if Kenny can actually rebuild.

Lip

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:00 PM
The fact that Santos was the first move tells me the front office is all in (pardon the phrase) on rebuilding vice retooling. Dealing Danks or TCQ could be a "retooling" move, but Santos was the type of cheap, cost-controlled prospect that would be part of a re-tooled team.

My thoughts exactly. The only thing giving me pause is that Reed is the closer of the future and is MLB ready. I agree that it doesn't make sense to deal a cheap, cost controlled closer like Santos if you plan on contending in the immediate future though. We will see what happens next.

Noneck
12-06-2011, 01:00 PM
Did signing Santos this off season increase his worth? The money was back loaded and not a big money contract, I really dont get this one. A prospect for one of the few Sox players with much worth, its not making much sense to me.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:03 PM
I wonder if another lesser prospect or two are on the way as well. Package feels a bit light actually.

GoGoCrede
12-06-2011, 01:05 PM
Nooooooo. I really liked him, I'm bummed out.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:05 PM
Phillip (long beach, ca): What is Nestor Molina's stuff? He is making double a look very easy.


Jim Callis: It's all solid: fastball, slider, changeup, occasional curveball. Not sure you'd call any of his offerings a plus pitch, but he mixes them well and moves the ball around the strike zone. Not the sexiest scouting report, but that's the type of guy who winds up in the big leagues.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/chat/2011/2612251.html

beasly213
12-06-2011, 01:05 PM
This stings, but not as much as the Danks trade will hurt. I really do not trust Kenny with a full rebuild. This trade indicates that is coming. You usually don't start a full rebuild by dealing a young pitcher you have many years of cost control over.

Santos is young but he's a closer with no indication that he would eventually turn into a starter. Closers also tend to not have a long shelf life of being successful and by the time the Sox are in it again it's possible he won't have it anymore.

This move shows the Sox are going to trade Danks and need another young starter to fill his role somewhere down the line.

Noneck
12-06-2011, 01:06 PM
I wonder if another lesser prospect or two are on the way as well. Package feels a bit light actually.

Feather light to me considering his closing stats, age and contract.

Moses_Scurry
12-06-2011, 01:06 PM
As much as I have pulled for Santos, given his unique background as a shortstop given a second chance, I think this is a great move. Closers have been getting ridiculous contracts this winter, so it only makes sense that the return for Santos should be pretty good. This guy is very intriguing. I've always felt that it is not too difficult to groom a closer. Santos definitely looked like he was slipping during the second half of the season. I have no doubt that Reed can handle the role at least adequately.

I am very excited to see this prospect.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:06 PM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
#BlueJays like Molina, view him as potential mid-rotation starter. But they get 6 yrs of control on Santos on good contract. #WhiteSox #MLB
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:08 PM
CST_soxvan Daryl Van Schouwen
Ken w: 90-96 mph, hits both sides of plate, plus slider, splitter. Great command
34 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

GM scouting reports on a guy they just traded for are usually worthless (Jeff Marquez anyone?), but here it is.

soxnut1018
12-06-2011, 01:08 PM
whitesox Chicago White Sox
KW on Molina: We are very happy we were able to acquire him. He was on a very short target list. #WhiteSox
28 seconds ago

tstrike2000
12-06-2011, 01:08 PM
Seems like a good move if Molina pans out. Looks like a very good prospect.

TDog
12-06-2011, 01:10 PM
Rebuilding is trading veterans, not trading young emerging relievers (maybe not young in years, but young in pitching experience) who aren't even their highest earners in the bullpen.

It could be that the White Sox know something about Santos that other teams don't. He did give up two ninth-inning pinch-hit home runs to the Tigers in blown saves late last season. After giving up the two-out ninth-inning home run in the loss to the Dodgers, he wasn't nearly as effective as he had been, although he still had flashes of lights-out work.

Still, the White Sox bullpen came together last year when Santos emerged as the closer (and Pierre stopped dropping fly balls in left).

I didn't spend time working with White Sox pitchers last summer. I've never seen Molina pitch. All I can do is hope the White Sox got a good young pitcher who becomes a starter. I would trade a solid reliever for a solid starter any day.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 01:10 PM
I wonder if another lesser prospect or two are on the way as well. Package feels a bit light actually.

That's what I'm saying. Molina has been used as a reliever for the majority of his minor league time and most of the things I am reading say that he projects best as a future closer. Trade a cheap proven closer for a guy who projects to be a closer/reliever in the majors but is a few years away? Don't love the move at all. I hope the SOX try to keep Molina in the rotation. And man, I loved Sergio.

PKalltheway
12-06-2011, 01:10 PM
Barely touched double AA. A year minimum.
Mercy. The rebuilding project appears ready to begin. If you're going to rebuild Kenny, don't half-ass it.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:10 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
KW said Sox won't rush Molina. "It is a start of a rebuilding now."
13 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:12 PM
That's what I'm saying. Molina has been used as a reliever for the majority of his minor league time and most of the things I am reading say that he projects best as a future closer. Trade a cheap proven closer for a guy who projects to be a closer/reliever in the majors but is a few years away? Don't love the move at all. I hope the SOX try to keep Molina in the rotation. And man, I loved Sergio.

What? Molina projects as a middle of the rotation guy. Outstanding peripherals. Started 23 games last season.

Gammons Peter
12-06-2011, 01:12 PM
This guy has spent the last 4 plus years in A Ball....

Noneck
12-06-2011, 01:13 PM
I looked at Santos as being the 2nd or 3rd Sox player of the most worth, with Sale being #1. And this is all they can get? There is danger here sherry.

DonnieDarko
12-06-2011, 01:14 PM
This Molina kid damned well better be lights out!

sonofab..............!

This, +1. I really won't know what to make of this trade until I see what we have to replace Santos, and how this prospect performs.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:14 PM
This guy has spent the last 4 plus years in A Ball....

Huh? He spent 2010 in Low-A, and 2011 in High-A. He'll be in AA and possibly AAA next year. Perfectly normal career arc for a minor league pitcher.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 01:15 PM
What? Molina projects as a middle of the rotation guy. Outstanding peripherals. Started 23 games last season.

Look at this stats. Last year was the first year he started in the minors. From 2007-2010, he was used primarily as a reliever in the Jays system.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:15 PM
This, +1. I really won't know what to make of this trade until I see what we have to replace Santos, and how this prospect performs.

Addison Reed will replace Santos, and he's arguably the best relief pitcher in all the minor leagues currently.

Gammons Peter
12-06-2011, 01:15 PM
Huh? He spent 2010 in Low-A, and 2011 in High-A. He'll be in AA and possibly AAA next year. Perfectly normal career arc for a minor league pitcher.

I thought I saw that he started in 07??

balz1472
12-06-2011, 01:15 PM
He played other positions until 2008. His numbers are very impressive for a converted player.

PatK
12-06-2011, 01:15 PM
I dont know about this.

Ugh, same here.

This is going to be one of the most confusing and depressing off seasons I can remember.

ChiSoxGal85
12-06-2011, 01:16 PM
Nooooooo. I really liked him, I'm bummed out.
Me too. I'd be the worst GM ever because I like everyone on the Sox. Well, almost everyone. :D:

That said, I didn't see this one coming and don't really get it.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:16 PM
I thought I saw that he started in 07??

He was in the Dominican Summer League as a 17 year old in '07.

Gammons Peter
12-06-2011, 01:17 PM
He was in the Dominican Summer League as a 17 year old in '07.

okay, my mistake, sorry

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:18 PM
okay, my mistake, sorry

No worries. Kid is a legitimate SP prospect, in which the Sox have none. Good trade if they are indeed rebuilding.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 01:18 PM
He was in the Dominican Summer League as a 17 year old in '07.

Dirty, I don't know if saw my post because it got cut off at the bottom of the last page. But 2011 was the first year that Molina was used as a starter. Made a total of 4 starts prior to 2011...all the rest out of the bullpen.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Dirty, I don't know if saw my post because it got cut off at the bottom of the last page. But 2011 was the first year that Molina was used as a starter. Made a total of 4 starts prior to 2011...all the rest out of the bullpen.

Right. But he was indeed a starter last season. He projects as a middle of the rotation guy according to most sources. I'm okay with it. It doesn't sound like their is much question that he will stick as a starter. If there was, I would be pretty uhappy.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:21 PM
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
CWS's scouts view of Molina: Potentially a front-end-rotation guy. 4-pitch mix with great command. Plus makeup and athleticism, as well.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

StillMissOzzie
12-06-2011, 01:21 PM
Weird. Sergio only making 1 million next year.
Molina not rated in top ten of Jays system.

Sure hope that Kenny knows something.
Peavy to close?

I hope that "Peavy to close?" part was meant to be in teal. He can barely go once a week now, you think he could stand warming up two days in a row?

SMO
:?::scratch:

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 01:23 PM
I am reluctant to trade good young relief pitching which we have under our control for a long time for a guy that scouts are projecting as a number three starter at best. Santos was in his second year pitching last year and looked just flat out filthy at times, maybe Kenny knows something we don't but right now I am less than enthralled with this move.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 01:24 PM
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
CWS's scouts view of Molina: Potentially a front-end-rotation guy. 4-pitch mix with great command. Plus makeup and athleticism, as well.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

I'd feel better about Molina if someone else's scouts viewed him this way. Our scouts don't have a very good track record of late.

thedudeabides
12-06-2011, 01:25 PM
The Sox newly signed assistant Marco Paddy signed Molina. It is not surprising the Sox went after him, given his ties. He is a very highly regarded pitching prospect. I love Sergio, but if you can flip a reliever for such a top pitching prospect, it is a good way to start rebuilding. Bullpen arms is where the Sox are strongest.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 01:25 PM
Right. But he was indeed a starter last season. He projects as a middle of the rotation guy according to most sources. I'm okay with it. It doesn't sound like their is much question that he will stick as a starter. If there was, I would be pretty uhappy.

I suppose. Still seems like a pretty light return to me. Mid-rotation prospect for a cheap, proven and controlled thru 2017 closer seems a bit lopsided.

I guess we'll see what other chips fall. I wasn't all for the "full rebuild" as I don't think its possible with some of the contracts we have....but it looks like they're going that way.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:26 PM
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
RT @jayzawaski670: #WhiteSox fans, @jimcallisBA joins @MacAndSpiegs (670 AM in Chicago) at 12:30 to make sense of #Santos / #Molina trade.
56 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Turn on 670 if you are so inclined.

chisox12
12-06-2011, 01:26 PM
I am reluctant to trade good young relief pitching which we have under our control for a long time for a guy that scouts are projecting as a number three starter at best. Santos was in his second year pitching last year and looked just flat out filthy at times, maybe Kenny knows something we don't but right now I am less than enthralled with this move.


Yeah, this move is a head-scratcher. Santos was probably the 1 guy on this roster I didn't want to see moved.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:27 PM
I suppose. Still seems like a pretty light return to me. Mid-rotation prospect for a cheap, proven and controlled thru 2017 closer seems a bit lopsided.

I guess we'll see what other chips fall. I wasn't all for the "full rebuild" as I don't think its possible with some of the contracts we have....but it looks like they're going that way.

I agree it could be a little light, but we will see I suppose.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:27 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Toronto had a split-camp in getting rid of Molina, "but you have to pay a price for an elite closer that we feel is only getting better."
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

gobears1987
12-06-2011, 01:28 PM
The Sox need bullpen help so they trade away one of their few reliable arms for a minor leaguer. :rolleyes:

JR should've accepted KW's resignation.

sox1970
12-06-2011, 01:28 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Toronto had a split-camp in getting rid of Molina, "but you have to pay a price for an elite closer that we feel is only getting better."
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Sounds like a real good baseball trade.

Hopefully this guy is a makeup for Hudson/Holmberg.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 01:29 PM
The Sox newly signed assistant Marco Paddy signed Molina. It is not surprising the Sox went after him, given his ties. He is a very highly regarded pitching prospect. I love Sergio, but if you can flip a reliever for such a top pitching prospect, it is a good way to start rebuilding. Bullpen arms is where the Sox are strongest.

The thing is that this guy does not appear to be viewed as a top pitching prospect by anyone but our own scouts. From what I am reading he is viewed as a number three guy at best except for our own scouts who also thought that Jeff Marquez could be the new Jon Garland.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:32 PM
The thing is that this guy does not appear to be viewed as a top pitching prospect by anyone but our own scouts. From what I am reading he is viewed as a number three guy at best except for our own scouts who also thought that Jeff Marquez could be the new Jon Garland.

Sickels thinks he's the number 2 prospect in a Jays system that is considered the best in baseball. He's regarded high enough, and not just by our own scouts.

Huisj
12-06-2011, 01:32 PM
I remember hearing his name a few times at Lugnuts games a couple summers ago here in Lansing. Couldn't tell you anything about how he pitched though. To me he just seemed like another A-ball middle reliever.

LITTLE NELL
12-06-2011, 01:32 PM
Does not break my heart to see Santos go but on the other hand I hate the thought of rebuilding. The Royals, Reds, Pirates to name a few are the kind of teams that rebuild. Chicago is the 3rd largest market in the country, the heck with rebuilding. We still have a pretty good nucleus of players and I'm hoping that Dunn and Rios fight it out for comeback player of the year. If that happens and PK, TCQ, Danks and TCM have their normal years I still think this team can contend. I think DeAza will be an improvement over Pierre and Beckham will return to his 2009 form. If we dont sign MB then all bets are off.

russ99
12-06-2011, 01:32 PM
Frankly, this sucks. We deal the one young, good arm we have in the pen for a KW special - AA pitcher with questionable upside. What are we going to get for Danks and Quentin? The batboy on a Class A team?

If we're going to rebuild, fine. But there needs to be some movement on Dunn, Rios and/or Peavy before I can buy into it.

I'll find it difficult to support a team that deals everyone decent away and we're stuck with those three deadweights.

hawkjt
12-06-2011, 01:32 PM
Kenny told the media this is the ''start of rebuilding''...it is official,now.
Sergio was one of the guys I least suspected would be traded so now, I have to wonder if Thornton,Danks,Floyd,Carlos, could be next,with no re-signing of MB.

Many fans on here wanted Kenny to do this...clean house,start anew...you got your wish..hope you still support the team by attending games next year.

seventyseven
12-06-2011, 01:32 PM
I have zero faith in KW to do this right. But let's see what TNM can do.

SI1020
12-06-2011, 01:33 PM
I'm surprised to say the least, that Santos is the first to go. As for the trade, I'm just going to wait and see.

thedudeabides
12-06-2011, 01:33 PM
The thing is that this guy does not appear to be viewed as a top pitching prospect by anyone but our own scouts. From what I am reading he is viewed as a number three guy at best except for our own scouts who also thought that Jeff Marquez could be the new Jon Garland.

He is currently viewed as the Blue Jays #2 prospect and is already making top 50 lists. He is easily the Sox #1 prospect now. He was a converted position player, then a reliever. His transition to a starter and success at AA this year has him flying up the radar.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:34 PM
Callis on the Score now.

gobears1987
12-06-2011, 01:34 PM
Molina may become a good pitcher, but if the Sox plan on rebuilding, Santos has to be one of the guys you build around. If the Sox plan on contending, then this deal makes even less sense.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 01:35 PM
Frankly, this sucks. We deal the one young, good arm we have in the pen for a KW special - AA pitcher with questionable upside. What are we going to get for Danks and Quentin? The batboy on a Class A team?

If we're going to rebuild, fine. But there needs to be some movement on Dunn, Rios and/or Peavy before I can buy into it.

I'll find it difficult to support a team that deals everyone decent away and we're stuck with those three deadweights.

I don't mind rebuilding per se, I just don't think that Kenny Williams should be the guy who is in charge of it. We wouldn't even have had to have made this move if he didn't trade for Edwin Jackson.

sox1970
12-06-2011, 01:35 PM
Gotta laugh at the people that already hate this move.

Let's see Molina get 15 starts at Birmingham next year, and see where he's at.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:35 PM
Gotta laugh at the people that already hate this move.

Let's see Molina get 15 starts at Birmingham next year, and see where he's at.

Pretty much.

delben91
12-06-2011, 01:35 PM
The Sox need bullpen help so they trade away one of their few reliable arms for a minor leaguer. :rolleyes:

JR should've accepted KW's resignation.

Well, another way to view it would be that this is the reverse of KW's recent trade pattern of trading "valuable" prospects for established talent (granted, not as young as Sergio), such as dealing Hudson, Richard, Young, DLS, etc.

Now he's getting other team's top prospects. Maybe it doesn't work out, but most folks wanted to see some reversal of KW's MO and this might be the start of it.

I'm willing to give it a chance since the past trend hasn't really worked.

WhiteSox1989
12-06-2011, 01:36 PM
Molina may become a good pitcher, but if the Sox plan on rebuilding, Santos has to be one of the guys you build around. If the Sox plan on contending, then this deal makes even less sense.
I completely agree with this. It just doesn't make sense. Especially because Santos wasn't making much.

Guess the Sox are just full blown rebuilding, eh.

hawkjt
12-06-2011, 01:36 PM
jimcallisBA Jim Callis
RT @jayzawaski670: #WhiteSox fans, @jimcallisBA joins @MacAndSpiegs (670 AM in Chicago) at 12:30 to make sense of #Santos / #Molina trade.
56 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Turn on 670 if you are so inclined.

Callis says that Molina is a good prospect but likely not ready for the big leagues next year. Another year of seasoning required.
Higher rated than Zack Stewart,in the Jays organization...

UofCSoxFan
12-06-2011, 01:37 PM
As long as we are going to rebuild, I don't mind trading Santos at all. Yes he's young, cheap, and controlled, but a top closer on a 70 win team is worthless. It's like a Bose stereo on a 92 Honda.

This means the Buerhle is gone (no surprise) and Danks and/or Floyd will be traded. But again, those decisions were likely made long before the decision to deal Santos.

The key now will be for Dunn, Rios, and Peavy to have bounce back first halfs so we can get them off the books and get SOME value for them. It will also be interesting to see what we do with Paulie, who could return some top prospects and also likely doesn't want to be/or deserve to be part of a rebuildng process at this stage in his career.

This is what happens when you are a medium sized market team that misses on big contracts. You have to deal players that are actually good.

Brian26
12-06-2011, 01:37 PM
The thing is that this guy does not appear to be viewed as a top pitching prospect by anyone but our own scouts.

Don't forget that we just hired a scout from Toronto that probably knows his way around that system pretty well. Don't let the Score sway your opinion here. This looks like a knockout trade by Kenny.

LITTLE NELL
12-06-2011, 01:38 PM
hawkjt;2860880]Kenny told the media this is the ''start of rebuilding''...it is official,now.[/I]
Sergio was one of the guys I least suspected would be traded so now, I have to wonder if Thornton,Danks,Floyd,Carlos, could be next,with no re-signing of MB.

Many fans on here wanted Kenny to do this...clean house,start anew...you got your wish..hope you still support the team by attending games next year.


If thats the case then hold on to your hats, MB will not be resigned, Danks, Floyd and TCQ will be traded.
20,000 will be a big crowd at USCF in 2012.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:38 PM
Don't forget that we just hired a scout from Toronto that probably knows his way around that system pretty well. Don't let the Score sway your opinion here. This looks like a knockout trade by Kenny.

I don't know about knockout, but it looks pretty solid to me.

Gammons Peter
12-06-2011, 01:40 PM
The guy on the score (Callis) said he was 17th best Jays prospect but now is number 2 on Sox behind A. Reed

gobears1987
12-06-2011, 01:41 PM
Welcome back to these days.

The Kids can Play!!!:puking:

Hitmen77
12-06-2011, 01:41 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
KW said Sox won't rush Molina. "It is a start of a rebuilding now."
13 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Is that Kenny's words or Cowley's?

GoGoCrede
12-06-2011, 01:41 PM
If thats the case then hold on to your hats, MD will not be resigned, Danks, Floyd and TCQ will be traded.
20,000 will be a big crowd at USCF in 2012.

Did you mean MB for Buehrle? :scratch: And as for trading Floyd, :whiner::whiner::whiner:.

GoGoCrede
12-06-2011, 01:42 PM
Is that Kenny's words or Cowley's?

Yeah, that's important, considering Cowley's penchant for twisting a story.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:42 PM
The guy on the score (Callis) said he was 17th best Jays prospect but now is number 2 on Sox behind A. Reed

He was the 17th prospect before his breakout season this year. Baseball America hasn't done 2012 rankings yet. The only person that has for the Jays is John Sickels, and he jumped all the way to number 2 in the system. One that is widely considered the best in baseball.

I'd also argue that Molina should be ahead of Reed, merely in the SP versus RP value debate.

soxnut1018
12-06-2011, 01:42 PM
Is that Kenny's words or Cowley's?

Kenny's.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:43 PM
Is that Kenny's words or Cowley's?

Kenny's. Mark Gonzalez quoted it too.

GoGoCrede
12-06-2011, 01:43 PM
Kenny's.

Scratch my last post. :smile: And, ugh. However, as a card-carrying Pollyanna, I will still look toward the season with anticipation.

beasly213
12-06-2011, 01:43 PM
Welcome back to these days.

The Kids can Play!!!:puking:
They won the division in 2000 when they had that slogan.

TomBradley72
12-06-2011, 01:43 PM
What a weird mess of a team this will be in 2012- a complete rebuild BUT mixed in with overpriced/untradeable veterans like Dunn, Rios, Peavy and AJ. This should set up the lowest expectations of any White Sox team since we were entering the 1999 season- and I'm sure the attendance/ticket sales will reflect that.

Poor Paulie- I'm sure he wishes he'd signed with Dbacks at this point.

gobears1987
12-06-2011, 01:44 PM
Kenny's.

Rebuilding is the right route for this team, but trading a low salary guy like Santos makes no sense. He and Sale should be the two pitchers you don't trade. :whiteflag:

LITTLE NELL
12-06-2011, 01:45 PM
Did you mean MB for Buehrle? :scratch: And as for trading Floyd, :whiner::whiner::whiner:.

Sorry, yes Buerhle.

Number 9
12-06-2011, 01:46 PM
I saw him pitch in Manchester this year, along with Stewart earlier in the year, for the Fisher Cats. I really liked him. I'd have to check my scorebook to find specifics but I remember being very impressed after just 2 starts, I believe, and thinking the team would be all set in the playoffs because of Molina. My expectation was that when this season's Baseball America ratings came out, he'd be very high for the Jays.

Hitmen77
12-06-2011, 01:48 PM
Interesting move. I don't hate it. We'll have to see how Molina does in 2013. I hate to lose Santos, but the Sox were probably not planning to compete in 2012 anyway. Until the Sox fix their minor league system, this seems to be the best way for KW to get some young talent on this team


I don't mind rebuilding per se, I just don't think that Kenny Williams should be the guy who is in charge of it. We wouldn't even have had to have made this move if he didn't trade for Edwin Jackson.

Agreed. The Sox are painted into this corner because of KW's moves and the failure of the organization to produce much in the way of its own talent.

At least KW has had some success in finding near-MLB ready talent from other teams (Danks, Floyd, Quentin). So, this trade sounds like it might be along the lines of one of his strengths.

If thats the case then hold on to your hats, MD will not be resigned, Danks, Floyd and TCQ will be traded.
20,000 will be a big crowd at USCF in 2012.

Attendance has dropped 5 years in a row and I expect it to take another huge hit for 2012. "ALL IN!" was a total bust.

SoxSpeed22
12-06-2011, 01:49 PM
If you want to make an omelette... you have to wreck a few planets.
I figured Santos would get traded, but I didn't think it would be this early. From what I understand, Molina was a converted position player, so maybe those first two years were just getting his feet wet as a pitcher. His splitter and slider can be good out pitches, but like all prospects, he still needs more polish. Nice control though.

LITTLE NELL
12-06-2011, 01:50 PM
As long as we are going to rebuild, I don't mind trading Santos at all. Yes he's young, cheap, and controlled, but a top closer on a 70 win team is worthless. It's like a Bose stereo on a 92 Honda.

This means the Buerhle is gone (no surprise) and Danks and/or Floyd will be traded. But again, those decisions were likely made long before the decision to deal Santos.

The key now will be for Dunn, Rios, and Peavy to have bounce back first halfs so we can get them off the books and get SOME value for them. It will also be interesting to see what we do with Paulie, who could return some top prospects and also likely doesn't want to be/or deserve to be part of a rebuildng process at this stage in his career.

This is what happens when you are a medium sized market team that misses on big contracts. You have to deal players that are actually good.

The Sox are run like a medium sized market team but Chicago is a big market town.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
Remember all those people telling me Nestor Molina was a future one? That guy got you Sergio Santos. #NotAOne
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
That's the thing, this is actually a pretty good trade for both side if you are realistic about what Molina is.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

34 Inch Stick
12-06-2011, 01:50 PM
I'm typically underwhelmed by KWs return in a trade.

SoxNation05
12-06-2011, 01:52 PM
Starters on the roster:
1. Danks
2. Floyd
3. Peavy
4. Humber
5. Sale
6. Stewart
7. Axelrod (hopefully not going to be considered.

^You have to think the only one that is completely out of trade talks is Sale and maybe Humber because of his second half and lack of consistency.

Then maybe but probably not Buehrle with Molina on the farm.

UofCSoxFan
12-06-2011, 01:55 PM
As long as we are going to rebuild, I don't mind trading Santos at all. Yes he's young, cheap, and controlled, but a top closer on a 70 win team is worthless. It's like a Bose stereo on a 92 Honda.

This means the Buerhle is gone (no surprise) and Danks and/or Floyd will be traded. But again, those decisions were likely made long before the decision to deal Santos.

The key now will be for Dunn, Rios, and Peavy to have bounce back first halfs so we can get them off the books and get SOME value for them. It will also be interesting to see what we do with Paulie, who could return some top prospects and also likely doesn't want to be/or deserve to be part of a rebuildng process at this stage in his career.

This is what happens when you are a medium sized market team that misses on big contracts. You have to deal players that are actually good.

The Sox are run like a medium sized market team but Chicago is a big market town.

I don't want to get into the debate as to whether or not the White Sox should be a big market team or not, but reality is reality. The way we are run is they spend money when they can win and don't when they can't. Teams like Boston or NY would look to spend money to make up for bonehead deals in the past, but that just isn't how Reinsdorf operates. He isn't cheap but he's prudent. The Sox again will spend again when/if prospects develop. It's frustrating, but a lot of teams function like this.

voodoochile
12-06-2011, 01:56 PM
Mark Gonzales just tweeted his stats as well. They are impressive. However, how close is he to being major-league ready?

:KW:
"He's ready..."

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/mlb/players/full/30117.png&w=350&h=254
"What could go wrong?"

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/mlb/players/full/30948.png&w=350&h=254
"Guess I'll be closing..."

SoxNation05
12-06-2011, 01:56 PM
I'm not sold on Sergio being a longtime closer but with his contract in consideration you would have to think we'd get more. Even if it was a shot in the dark A baller.


Goldstein makes it seem like the popular opinion is the Sox won this trade aswell.

DSpivack
12-06-2011, 01:57 PM
Starters on the roster:
1. Danks
2. Floyd
3. Peavy
4. Humber
5. Sale
6. Stewart
7. Axelrod (hopefully not going to be considered.

^You have to think the only one that is completely out of trade talks is Sale and maybe Humber because of his second half and lack of consistency.

Then maybe but probably not Buehrle with Molina on the farm.

Unfortunately I think Buehrle is as good as gone.

And I would not be surprised to see both Floyd and Danks dealt, as they are our two best trading chips.

pythons007
12-06-2011, 01:59 PM
unfortunately i think buehrle is as good as gone.

And i would not be surprised to see both floyd and danks dealt, as they are our two best trading chips.

fo sho!

KyWhiSoxFan
12-06-2011, 01:59 PM
What a weird mess of a team this will be in 2012- a complete rebuild BUT mixed in with overpriced/untradeable veterans like Dunn, Rios, Peavy and AJ. This should set up the lowest expectations of any White Sox team since we were entering the 1999 season- and I'm sure the attendance/ticket sales will reflect that.

Poor Paulie- I'm sure he wishes he'd signed with Dbacks at this point.

Wonder if they will ask Paulie to wave his no-trade clause now? He is worth a lot in trade.

JB98
12-06-2011, 01:59 PM
Kenny Williams hasn't made a good trade in years.

pythons007
12-06-2011, 02:00 PM
Wonder if they will ask Paulie to wave his no-trade clause now? He is worth a lot in trade.

I assume they try and get rid of everything that is possible to trade without getting burned by eating money (Rios/Dunn/Peavy).

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-06-2011, 02:00 PM
Unfortunately I think Buehrle is as good as gone.

And I would not be surprised to see both Floyd and Danks dealt, as they are our two best trading chips.

Danks is on his last year of his contract, so he won't fetch as much as he really could.

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 02:01 PM
So who's going to close now? I had high hopes for Santos in that role, especially after this past season. The plan is for Sale to go into the rotation. No way he should be closing again if he's supposed to be starting for this club.

I've yet to make this statement, but I've been thinking about it for some time now. This is going to be the first time since I started following baseball on a more serious basis (halfway through '03) that my expectations for this team are going to be low. I'm not proud of it, but there's no other realistic way for me to see this.

delben91
12-06-2011, 02:01 PM
Wonder if they will ask Paulie to wave his no-trade clause now? He is worth a lot in trade.

I could also see Paulie just wanting to play out the last 2 years of his deal in Chicago because he seems like the loyal kind of guy that would honor a contract because he signed it.

Maybe naive on my part though...

JB98
12-06-2011, 02:01 PM
So who's going to close now? I had high hopes for Santos in that role, especially after this past season. The plan is for Sale to go into the rotation. No way he should be closing again if he's supposed to be starting for this club.

I've yet to make this statement, but I've been thinking about it for some time now. This is going to be the first time since I started following baseball on a more serious basis (halfway through '03) that my expectations for this team are going to be low. I'm not proud of it, but there's no other realistic way for me to see this.

Doesn't matter. We're not going to have many leads to protect anyway.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 02:02 PM
So who's going to close now?

Addison Reed. Probably the best relief prospect in all baseball. The Sox number 1 prospect. Go look at his numbers. He's awesome.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-06-2011, 02:02 PM
So who's going to close now? I had high hopes for Santos in that role, especially after this past season. The plan is for Sale to go into the rotation. No way he should be closing again if he's supposed to be starting for this club.

I've yet to make this statement, but I've been thinking about it for some time now. This is going to be the first time since I started following baseball on a more serious basis (halfway through '03) that my expectations for this team are going to be low. I'm not proud of it, but there's no other realistic way for me to see this.

Addison Reed.

soxnut1018
12-06-2011, 02:03 PM
So who's going to close now?

Addison Reed.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 02:03 PM
BenBadler Ben Badler
Premium control, avg or better stuff, might be the White Sox new No. 1 prospect RT @Wfrenchman who is Nestor Molina?
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


BenBadler Ben Badler
Yup. Farm system has crumbled. RT @PoseidonsFist that is a low bar
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

SoxNation05
12-06-2011, 02:03 PM
I think Floyd is soft and doesn't have the make up to be anything but a 4 so I am fine with him being dealt.

I will be sad when Danks is trade as he's such a cool dude and a real fighter out there.

1. Sale (this kid will be an ace)
2. Peavy (if healthy a more than capable 2)
3. Humber (has shown stints but don't trust him at all)
4. Stewart (Maybe a 5)
5. Axelrod (maybe a middle reliever)

UofCSoxFan
12-06-2011, 02:05 PM
Doesn't matter. We're not going to have many leads to protect anyway.

Right, and that's the biggest reason why we trade Santos, even if he is young and cheap. We won't need a good closer for years, unfortunately.

This is why I never understood why the Royals held onto Soria. It may pay off now that they should be good, but they could have gotten a ransom from some teams for him.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-06-2011, 02:07 PM
Right, and that's the biggest reason why we trade Santos, even if he is young and cheap. We won't need a good closer for years, unfortunately.

This is why I never understood why the Royals held onto Soria. It may pay off now that they should be good, but they could have gotten a ransom from some teams for him.

Didn't Soria hit a wall this season? I remember him being uprooted at closer at some point this season.

ZombieRob
12-06-2011, 02:07 PM
Wow this team may not even be fun bad. Hope to see better returns for Danks and Quentin

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 02:09 PM
Didn't Soria hit a wall this season? I remember him being uprooted at closer at some point this season.
That's exactly what happened. He definitely could have been of use to a contender, but it's too late now. He just has to hope he finds his groove again a la Lidge in '08.

DSpivack
12-06-2011, 02:10 PM
Danks is on his last year of his contract, so he won't fetch as much as he really could.

I agree, and I wonder if Floyd could bring back more in return.

guillensdisciple
12-06-2011, 02:13 PM
Kenny said rebuild and away we go. So many of us clamored for it and well at least I won't have high expectations this year.

gobears1987
12-06-2011, 02:14 PM
I think we're going from "All-in" to "fold." Thanks you folks, I'l be here all night.:tongue:

gf2020
12-06-2011, 02:15 PM
I'm not sure I trust the people executing it, but I like having a direction. If we are going to be bad, we might as well be bad with a purpose.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 02:15 PM
Kenny said rebuild and away we go. So many of us clamored for it and well at least I won't have high expectations this year.

As someone else has said, I hope that everyone on here that has clamored for a full rebuild goes out to the cell several times next summer.

asindc
12-06-2011, 02:15 PM
I like the fact that we now have a former Toronto scout on our staff who presumably weighed in heavily on this.

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 02:17 PM
Kenny said rebuild and away we go. So many of us clamored for it and well at least I won't have high expectations this year.
So you all got your wish. Now don't complain about what you see on the field this season.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 02:18 PM
JimMargalus Jim Margalus
Favorite anagrams for Nestor Molina: A Silent Moron, Melon Rations, Moon Latrines, Ten Monorails.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


I love Jim.

The Immigrant
12-06-2011, 02:20 PM
I like the fact that we now have a former Toronto scout on our staff who presumably weighed in heavily on this.

That just reminds me of how Buddy Bell convinced Kenny to trade for Teahen so he could play 3B. :angry:

TomBradley72
12-06-2011, 02:21 PM
I like the fact that we now have a former Toronto scout on our staff who presumably weighed in heavily on this.

Me too- on the other hand- Buddy Bell advocated for Mark Teahen from his KC days-

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 02:22 PM
Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
I'll be on The Score 670 in Chicago at 2pm with @dan_bernstein to discuss the Santos/Molina trade.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Twin Killing
12-06-2011, 02:24 PM
I like the fact that we now have a former Toronto scout on our staff who presumably weighed in heavily on this.

Amen to that! I guess we'll see in time, but you have to like the fact that if there was something negative about this kid's prospects, Marco Paddy would be aware of it.

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 02:24 PM
http://www.southsidesox.com/2011/12/6/2615759/the-white-sox-rebuilding-process-begins
Interesting take on this.

Hitmen77
12-06-2011, 02:26 PM
JimMargalus Jim Margalus
Favorite anagrams for Nestor Molina: A Silent Moron, Melon Rations, Moon Latrines, Ten Monorails.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


I love Jim.

Is there a chance the track could bend?

infohawk
12-06-2011, 02:30 PM
I really like Santos, but I love the trade.

The Sox aren't in immediate need of an up-and-coming closer if in fact they are going into some kind of rebuild. A dominant closer is a luxury for teams that are expecting to contend.

If you can flip your closer for a young, cheap, and promising starting pitcher to add pieces for your next contender, you do it. Good starting pitchers pitch more innings and are therefore much more valuable than closers.

Let's see what happens next.

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 02:30 PM
Is there a chance the track could bend?
I call the big one Bitey.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 02:31 PM
Fangraphs take:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/white-sox-trade-santos-start-the-rebuild-process/

Noneck
12-06-2011, 02:32 PM
So you all got your wish. Now don't complain about what you see on the field this season.


Do you really think the Sox were going to do it any other way? Rebuilding in itself is cutting salary, no way the Sox are going to keep salary up, have a crappy team and not draw at the gate. Ideally the Sox ownership would use some of its profits over the past 25+ years and actually try to put a winner on the field but you know that wasnt going to happen. It is what it is now, hopefully the Sox will rebuild with paying draft choices, getting more scouts, in effect putting money into the minor league system. Regarding attendance, I dont think it matters if people go to games or not, the bud man has doled out money to the pirates so they dont lose money so the same will hold true with his buddy jerry.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 02:39 PM
Fangraphs take:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/white-sox-trade-santos-start-the-rebuild-process/

Pretty unexciting review, actually. States that there is a decent chance that Molina ends up as a reliever due to a recoil in his wind-up.

Also states that Santos was probably the SOX best trading chip, and by trading him first, they are announcing a rebuild. Therefore, most trade proposals for the remaining players the SOX are trying to move will most likely be underwhelming. Just an opinion, but not a real exciting one.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 02:41 PM
Pretty unexciting review, actually. States that there is a decent chance that Molina ends up as a reliever due to a recoil in his wind-up.

Also states that Santos was probably the SOX best trading chip, and by trading him first, they are announcing a rebuild. Therefore, most trade proposals for the remaining players the SOX are trying to move will most likely be underwhelming. Just an opinion, but not a real exciting one.

Yep. Some scouts see Molina as a reliever. We will see. Trying to show the varying opinions of the trade.

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 02:42 PM
Also states that Santos was probably the SOX best trading chip, and by trading him first, they are announcing a rebuild. Therefore, most trade proposals for the remaining players the SOX are trying to move will most likely be underwhelming. Just an opinion, but not a real exciting one.
Just because it's underwhelming doesn't mean it's not true. Why offer some of your top prospects if you know their potential suitor doesn't plan on competing in the near future? Not saying it's the best thing for us, but don't be shocked if some teams approach the Sox this way.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 02:45 PM
Just because it's underwhelming doesn't mean it's not true. Why offer some of your top prospects if you know their potential suitor doesn't plan on competing in the near future? Not saying it's the best thing for us, but don't be shocked if some teams approach the Sox this way.

I won't be shocked, but it's not like the SOX completely negated any chance of competing in 2012 by trading Santos. The bullpen was stacked, and by moving Santos, it definitely weakens it, but its not the end of the world.

I still think you don't move Q, Danks or Floyd if the return isn't major league ready players that are expected to be better than average. I hope KW has not changed his stance on this.

DSpivack
12-06-2011, 02:45 PM
Is there a chance the track could bend?

JimMargalus Jim Margalus
Favorite anagrams for Nestor Molina: A Silent Moron, Melon Rations, Moon Latrines, Ten Monorails.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

I love Jim.

As a further cost-cutting measure, the White Sox will move their AAA team to North Haverbrook.

34 Inch Stick
12-06-2011, 02:46 PM
Pretty unexciting review, actually. States that there is a decent chance that Molina ends up as a reliever due to a recoil in his wind-up.

Also states that Santos was probably the SOX best trading chip, and by trading him first, they are announcing a rebuild. Therefore, most trade proposals for the remaining players the SOX are trying to move will most likely be underwhelming. Just an opinion, but not a real exciting one.

Not really a valid one either. The Sox would be trading valuable pieces which should have interest from more than one team. This results in a market which should lead to a proper valuation.

Saufley
12-06-2011, 02:47 PM
I'll be rooting for Molina but let me throw this out there. You see Bell get a 3 year 27 mil contract and didn't Papelbon get 4 years for 40 mil? Could Kenny have traded Santos for a position player or SP who might have been ready to be in the majors this year? Maybe Molina will show enough this spring to come north with the Sox? Time will tell.

soxnut1018
12-06-2011, 02:49 PM
As a further cost-cutting measure, the White Sox will move their AAA team to North Haverbrook.

That would definitely put it on the map.

tstrike2000
12-06-2011, 02:50 PM
Though Santos is cheap and still has upside, so does the young pitcher we got. Closers are important in today's game, but I can see the long range plan of Molina becoming a starter in the future. Hate to see Sergio go, but I don't think it's too bad of a trade.

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 02:54 PM
I still think you don't move Q, Danks or Floyd if the return isn't major league ready players that are expected to be better than average. I hope KW has not changed his stance on this.
Agreed, but at least one, maybe two, of those guys will be gone before the meetings wrap up. If I had to rank those who are most likely to go, I'd do it this way:

1) Danks - His contract is expiring and has enough value to get a decent return. If the Sox are rebuilding, some ML-ready prospects could definitely be picked up here.

2) Quentin - Again, his contract situation makes him a candidate here. I know he has problems staying healthy for a whole year, but his offensive upside has a very high ceiling. Best to deal him now before he drops off and loses his value. No need to risk that here.

3) Floyd - Has an option for 2013, but if the Sox dealt Santos, that only increases his own chances of being traded. Probably wouldn't get the best players in return, but there are plenty of teams out there who could use a workhorse like him in their rotation. Don't be shocked to see him shipped out.

Noneck
12-06-2011, 02:54 PM
I still think you don't move Q, Danks or Floyd if the return isn't major league ready players that are expected to be better than average. I hope KW has not changed his stance on this.


If the Sox couldnt or didnt get a major league ready player for Santos, I doubt if they could or will get one for the above mentioned.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 03:03 PM
If the Sox couldnt or didnt get a major league ready player for Santos, I doubt if they could or will get one for the above mentioned.

This. Teams aren't willing and eager to give up major league ready prospects. Why would they unless the prospect is blocked or of questionable talent? The value of prospects, especially ones that are ready to contribute are significantly higher than in the past.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 03:06 PM
This. Teams aren't willing and eager to give up major league ready prospects. Why would they unless the prospect is blocked?

Then don't trade that team the player they want. It's that easy. KW has said that he isn't trading proven talent for anything less than major league ready and impact prospects. I don't see how this trade changes that.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 03:09 PM
So you all got your wish. Now don't complain about what you see on the field this season.

The team should probably rebuild but NOT with Kenny calling the shots. If he doesn't trade for Jackson and Swisher we don't need this guy because we have two really good young starting pitchers on our staff who are under our control for awhile. Kenny Williams has never used any degree of foresight when he makes a trade and always thinks about THAT season and never beyond it which is exactly why we are in this mess.

For me hearing Kenny Williams talking about looking towards the future in trades is like hearing the captain of the Titanic say "Well now I am going to be looking for icebergs."

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 03:10 PM
Then don't trade that team the player they want. It's that easy. KW has said that he isn't trading proven talent for anything less than major league ready and impact prospects. I don't see how this trade changes that.

Molina isn't a major league ready prospect. He might not even be considered an impact prospect. Limiting yourself to major league ready players severely hurts your potential return. Players will continue to be moved, and I'll be surprised if Kenny gets major league ready talent unless that player is blocked (IE Alonso) or of marginal value.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Molina isn't a major league ready prospect. He might not even be considered an impact prospect. Limiting yourself to major league ready players severely hurts your potential return. Players will continue to be moved, and I'll be surprised if Kenny gets major league ready talent unless that player is blocked (IE Alonso) or of marginal value.

I guess we'll see.

ilsox7
12-06-2011, 03:16 PM
This is going to get even more fun when Danks is traded for a lot less than many around here think he is worth. On the face of it, the Santos deal is a good one. I'll take a potential mid / high rotation prospect over a closer any day when rebuilding.

KRS1
12-06-2011, 03:16 PM
Not sure I understand moving our up-and-coming closer for a giant ? regardless of our bullpen depth. The scouts seem to like Molina, but I just don't get doing this trade one-for-one considering the risk of development on our end.

guillensdisciple
12-06-2011, 03:18 PM
Question- this kid is a starter right?

Noneck
12-06-2011, 03:21 PM
Question- this kid is a starter right?


Hes a pitching prospect with no major league experience going into the Sox system. Beyond that, no one knows.

guillensdisciple
12-06-2011, 03:21 PM
Also since we're rebuilding guarantee Dunn hits 30 homers again. Guy is good with no pressure.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Baseball America's take. They don't think as much of Nestor as others.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2011/2612687.html

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 03:24 PM
Question- this kid is a starter right?

Mixed reviews. He started for the first time in 2011. His numbers were quite impressive, but some scouting reports think he projects best as a potential closer/reliever due to a recoil in his wind up. Others think he projects as a mid-rotation starter.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 03:27 PM
Baseball America's take. They don't think as much of Nestor as others.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2011/2612687.html

From the stuff you're posting it seems that scouts are split on his potential but it seems like save for our scouts (and some guys on the Blue Jays) most view him as a solid number three guy, is that accurate?

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 03:28 PM
From the stuff you're posting it seems that scouts are split on his potential but it seems like save for our scouts (and some guys on the Blue Jays) most view him as a solid number three guy, is that accurate?

Yes. Middle of the rotation guy.

Harry Chappas
12-06-2011, 03:30 PM
If the Sox are willing to take the fall out, let them go "all in" with rebuilding. No halfway measures...everybody goes.

That said it's going to be a desolate next few years to say nothing about legit questions as to if Kenny can actually rebuild.

Lip

Is half-way measures a reference to Walter in Breaking Bad? If so, I tip my hat to you good sir...

34 Inch Stick
12-06-2011, 03:31 PM
Also since we're rebuilding guarantee Dunn hits 30 homers again. Guy is good with no pressure.

That would make me happy. There would be a market for him having only one bad season then bouncing back to form. The "bad contract" would be market at that point.

tick53
12-06-2011, 03:48 PM
:angry:I'm at my wits end with this organization.

TheVulture
12-06-2011, 03:50 PM
:scratch: I thought rebuilding would mean building around the good, young and cost effective players we already have.

soxinem1
12-06-2011, 04:03 PM
:scratch: I thought rebuilding would mean building around the good, young and cost effective players we already have.

Which are......... who??

Goose
12-06-2011, 04:06 PM
Which are......... who??

Not Sergio Santos, anymore...

Saufley
12-06-2011, 04:06 PM
Sergio Santos WAS one

NardiWasHere
12-06-2011, 04:09 PM
:scratch: I thought rebuilding would mean building around the good, young and cost effective players we already have.

Which are......... who??

Not Sergio Santos, anymore...

Well you aren't rebuilding by trading Dunn, Rios, & co. ... who wants them?

You also can't rebuild around a closer. A closer is like the last piece a team needs. What's Santos doing for the Sox in 2012-2013 if they are bad? Not much.

I love him, but I'm not mad they dealt a closer for a starter in year 1 of a rebuild.

ElevenUp
12-06-2011, 04:10 PM
Is half-way measures a reference to Walter in Breaking Bad? If so, I tip my hat to you good sir...

Ha! That's exactly what I was thinking. It's so cool I have decided to change my signature.

SoxSpeed22
12-06-2011, 04:13 PM
Ha! That's exactly what I was thinking. It's so cool I have decided to change my signature.Nice.
I also think that we got decent value out of Santos. Relievers are so fickle in the majors, that you don't know what would happen next year. As long as Molina can keep improving, we can at least have a decent starter going forward.

Harry Chappas
12-06-2011, 04:15 PM
As someone else has said, I hope that everyone on here that has clamored for a full rebuild goes out to the cell several times next summer.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm more inclined to go to games when I know they aren't being played by a bunch of underachievers that are inexplicably bad but rather by younger players busting their butts who are bad. I'm not sure where Dunn and Rios fit into the equation. Knowing Dunn, he'll probably have a bounce back year because he won't be burdened with a pesky thing like expectation. Same with Rios.

Saufley
12-06-2011, 04:16 PM
I just thought Kenny said he was going to be trading for major league ready talent. Let's hope Paddy knows something about this kid.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 04:18 PM
Sickels blurb on the trade, with some Nestor video.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/12/6/2616005/blue-jays-trade-top-prospect-nestor-molina-to-white-sox-for-sergio

DSpivack
12-06-2011, 04:23 PM
Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm more inclined to go to games when I know they aren't being played by a bunch of underachievers that are inexplicably bad but rather by younger players busting their butts who are bad. I'm not sure where Dunn and Rios fit into the equation. Knowing Dunn, he'll probably have a bounce back year because he won't be burdened with a pesky thing like expectation. Same with Rios.

Adam Dunn, the Javier Vazquez of DHs?

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-06-2011, 04:33 PM
This was definitely a surprise today. I thought Sergio would be the one few guys not going anywhere. Seems like this SP has a legit shot at doing something though. That K/BB ratio is sick, even if it is at the A/AA level.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 04:34 PM
Sickels blurb on the trade, with some Nestor video.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/12/6/2616005/blue-jays-trade-top-prospect-nestor-molina-to-white-sox-for-sergio

His recoil is actually really similar to Jake Peavy's.

Tragg
12-06-2011, 04:58 PM
Then don't trade that team the player they want. It's that easy. KW has said that he isn't trading proven talent for anything less than major league ready and impact prospects. I don't see how this trade changes that.

The thing is, there are just so few of those and those that exist are usually in the teams' plans. Unless they are blocked. Usually these "major league ready talents" are something like Josh Stewart - blah.
It is a little weird to rebuild when you have immovable bad contracts on the books.
I sort of like the idea of moving Santos- I'd think we should have been able to get a major prospect for him - hope this pitcher is that. It would have been nice to get him for Jackson and still have Santos to trade. I can live without that reliever we got.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 05:25 PM
Keith Law is not big on Molina at all. Some highlights from his ESPN insider article:

-Nestor Molina was maybe the Jay's sixth-best pitching prospect

-The White Sox, on the other hand, get an extreme control right-hander without much of a breaking ball who could be a dominant two-pitch reliever, but is probably a year away from seriously contributing in the majors.

-He has a solid-average fastball at 90-92 with a plus splitter, a pitch that made him more effective against left-handed batters than right-handed by more than 100 points of OPS this year.

-He should have a significant role in the 'pen even if he ends up exclusively a fastball/splitter guy. Molina is a good prospect, probably the best now in a fallow White Sox system, but the return seems a little light for a major league reliever signed to a very affordable three-year deal.

asindc
12-06-2011, 05:26 PM
Keith Law is not big on Molina at all. Some highlights from his ESPN insider article:

-Nestor Molina was maybe the Jay's sixth-best pitching prospect

-The White Sox, on the other hand, get an extreme control right-hander without much of a breaking ball who could be a dominant two-pitch reliever, but is probably a year away from seriously contributing in the majors.

-He has a solid-average fastball at 90-92 with a plus splitter, a pitch that made him more effective against left-handed batters than right-handed by more than 100 points of OPS this year.

-He should have a significant role in the 'pen even if he ends up exclusively a fastball/splitter guy. Molina is a good prospect, probably the best now in a fallow White Sox system, but the return seems a little light for a major league reliever signed to a very affordable three-year deal.

Keith Law hardly ever has anything good to say about the Sox, FO or team.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 05:29 PM
Keith Law hardly ever has anything good to say about the Sox, FO or team.

I am aware.

Soxman219
12-06-2011, 05:43 PM
So this guy is not even in AAA yet? I don't know about this one. I miss Santos already, but if the Sox are truly rebuilding this was needed.

ilsox7
12-06-2011, 05:46 PM
Keith Law hardly ever has anything good to say about the Sox, FO or team.

If reincarnated Babe Ruth in his prime played for the Sox, Law would only say bad things about him.

TomBradley72
12-06-2011, 05:51 PM
:angry:I'm at my wits end with this organization.

Me too- my bitterness at trading young pitchers like Gio, Hudson and Richard for Swisher/Jackson/Peavy + squandering $31M/yr on Dunn and Rios is clouding my ability to be objective on this.

Santos is a 1st class closer locked in to a very reasonable contract for many years- I think that's a very valuable commodity and should get you more in return than what this trade is yielding- and I don't agree with assessments that our bullpen is stacked, etc. If Sale goes to the rotation, and Thornton is traded- Will Ohman is our LH out of the bullpen.

I just don't have any faith that KW is the right leader if this is the game plan- he has almost 20 years of history as a GM and leader of the minor league system and there is very little in that resume that supports him as the GM if this is the White Sox strategy.

russ99
12-06-2011, 05:54 PM
I feel a bit better on this deal, on the interwebs most of the Blue Jays fans are upset over who they gave up, like he was untouchable or something...

Harry Chappas
12-06-2011, 05:57 PM
So this guy is not even in AAA yet? I don't know about this one. I miss Santos already, but if the Sox are truly rebuilding this was needed.

Dirty Sox might be able to answer this one better than me, but AAA isn't necessarily better competition. Oftentimes, it's full of career minor leaguers and rehabbing major leaguers. There's probably more young talent at AA.

One thing that annoys the hell out of me is when scouting reports are all over the map in terms of velocity. Law says he's 90-92 and I read somewhere else that he was "90 - 96." Those are some big ranges. It can't be that hard to get an accurate MPH on these guys. But based on what I've read, it sounds like he's a lot closer to 90 than 96 which gives me pause. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't think of too many dominating righty starters that are sitting at 90 on the gun.

FreeBuck12
12-06-2011, 06:00 PM
One of my best friends played a lot with Molina this year in A ball.. He texted me just now "don't worry- Molina is nasty.. I played with him a lot this year he was our most consistent guy by far. Throws strikes all day and doesn't get hit. Nasty splitter. And he's young.. I'm personally not sold on santos"

Always nice of my friends to be looking out for feelings when it comes to baseball, haha. Just thought Id share what one of his (now former) teammates had to say about him

DirtySouthsider
12-06-2011, 06:11 PM
Here's Rosenbloom's blog about the trade. To be honest I have no idea what his point is?


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-sox-odds-rebuilding-20111206,0,7689697.column

102605
12-06-2011, 06:14 PM
High upside SP with "nasty" stuff and great control? For a converted SS that was starting to look a little shaky as a closer?

I will take it!

kobo
12-06-2011, 06:19 PM
Me too- my bitterness at trading young pitchers like Gio, Hudson and Richard for Swisher/Jackson/Peavy + squandering $31M/yr on Dunn and Rios is clouding my ability to be objective on this.

Santos is a 1st class closer locked in to a very reasonable contract for many years- I think that's a very valuable commodity and should get you more in return than what this trade is yielding- and I don't agree with assessments that our bullpen is stacked, etc. If Sale goes to the rotation, and Thornton is traded- Will Ohman is our LH out of the bullpen.

I just don't have any faith that KW is the right leader if this is the game plan- he has almost 20 years of history as a GM and leader of the minor league system and there is very little in that resume that supports him as the GM if this is the White Sox strategy.
He has yet to close for an entire season. I'm not thrilled with him being moved, but let's not overvalue the guy. While he had a decent season in 2011 he also had his problems. Santos is also 28 and has only been pitching for what, 3 years? He could turn out to be a bum as much as he could turn out to be an elite closer. Plus, like a few others have said, a closer is just not important to this team right now.

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 06:23 PM
Here's Rosenbloom's blog about the trade. To be honest I have no idea what his point is?


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-sox-odds-rebuilding-20111206,0,7689697.column
Simple. Closers only get in a game as often as their team has a close lead in the eighth or ninth innings. Sergio isn't responsible for creating his situations, so this is not a rebuilding sign.

34 Inch Stick
12-06-2011, 06:31 PM
He has yet to close for an entire season. I'm not thrilled with him being moved, but let's not overvalue the guy. While he had a decent season in 2011 he also had his problems. Santos is also 28 and has only been pitching for what, 3 years? He could turn out to be a bum as much as he could turn out to be an elite closer. Plus, like a few others have said, a closer is just not important to this team right now.

Imagine what Thornton should bring.

Tragg
12-06-2011, 06:34 PM
Imagine what Thornton should bring.

Not much. He makes twice as much as Sergio.

I think Rosenbloom makes no sense at all. If they're a dime a dozen, why not dump the closer for a young player?

sox1970
12-06-2011, 06:36 PM
Imagine what Thornton should bring.

Salary relief more than anything.

CPditka
12-06-2011, 06:40 PM
Any good comparisons on what trades for closers have netted in the past?

Ones that come to mind are:

-Matt Capps for catching prospect Wilson Ramos and minor league left-hander Joe Testa

- George Sherrill for third base prospect Josh Bell and pitching prospect Steve Johnson

Im sure there are plenty more, but wanted to see the return on comperable players.

KyWhiSoxFan
12-06-2011, 06:42 PM
Salary relief more than anything.

Thornton is gone. It's just of matter of what he can bring back. Just waiting for best offer. They picked up two lefty relievers and put them on the 40-man roster, so KW hopes one will be serviceable. Thornton is $6m and can't close.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-06-2011, 06:45 PM
I feel a bit better on this deal, on the interwebs most of the Blue Jays fans are upset over who they gave up, like he was untouchable or something...

That's nice to hear. Always seems like we're used to hearing the opposite.

Crestani
12-06-2011, 06:52 PM
Here's Rosenbloom's blog about the trade. To be honest I have no idea what his point is?


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-sox-odds-rebuilding-20111206,0,7689697.column



When has Rosenbloom ever made a point..??

TaylorStSox
12-06-2011, 06:58 PM
Do we overvalue Santos? Is he truly established? The ERA, blown saves, durability and lack of confidence in his fastball are somewhat worrisome.

XplodingScorbord
12-06-2011, 07:06 PM
Last trade WSI has approved of...go!

HomeFish
12-06-2011, 07:34 PM
I approve of this trade. Closers are almost always overrated and it's a good idea to sell high on them.

NardiWasHere
12-06-2011, 07:40 PM
Here's Rosenbloom's blog about the trade. To be honest I have no idea what his point is?


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-sox-odds-rebuilding-20111206,0,7689697.column

:scratch::?:

TaylorStSox
12-06-2011, 07:49 PM
If we consider that Santos is blocking our best prospect, it seems like a good trade. I have a hard time saying we should have gotten more. I'm not in the room during the negotiating process. There are a handful of people involved in these trades who know a lot more about baseball than I do.

DSpivack
12-06-2011, 08:03 PM
If we consider that Santos is blocking our best prospect, it seems like a good trade. I have a hard time saying we should have gotten more. I'm not in the room during the negotiating process. There are a handful of people involved in these trades who know a lot more about baseball than I do.

I don't think Santos was blocking Reed, it's not like a position player where you only have one. Every team could always use another reliever, and I don't think Reed is the closer answer in the short-term. Jesse Crain will probably get some looks there, early on in 2012 anyway.

I agree with your points after that.

34rancher
12-06-2011, 08:08 PM
Sorry to Sergio go. He was fun. Too bad we couldn't throw in big donkey as a bonus.

LongLiveFisk
12-06-2011, 08:30 PM
Blah....I liked Sergio. But we'll see what happens.

Tragg
12-06-2011, 08:34 PM
I approve of this trade. Closers are almost always overrated and it's a good idea to sell high on them.

Yes it is a good idea to sell high on them. But did we? Is this pitcher a real top prospect? Opinions differ widely.

Brian26
12-06-2011, 08:37 PM
So this guy is not even in AAA yet?

You realize that AA prospects are sometimes more valuable than AAA players, right?

doublem23
12-06-2011, 08:41 PM
Yes it is a good idea to sell high on them. But did we? Is this pitcher a real top prospect? Opinions differ widely.

When was the last time a closer was traded for a top starting pitching prospect straight up?

shes
12-06-2011, 08:42 PM
I approve of this trade. Closers are almost always overrated and it's a good idea to sell high on them.

Agreed. Closers are easy to develop and replace. Moreover, they generally have an abbreviated shelf life. I know we all loved Sergio, but moving him for a starting prospect at this point with Reed ready to take over is the right move. Molina projects to be a #2-4 guy, which replaces and hopefully even improves on what we had with Danks. The fact that he has such outstanding peripherals and not just "good stuff" means he is likelier to have some sort of success at the MLB level.

HaroMaster87
12-06-2011, 08:46 PM
I agree that the least of this teams worries next year will be who's closing games as most of us expect that those situations will be few and far between. Not to mention if KW is gonna trade Floyd/Danks and buehrles gone, this team is going to need starters...BAD. And not just for this upcoming year but the future. How many future pitching prospects do we have ready to go?

Therefore, the trade makes sense...hope Molina ends up being good...

Bottom line is I'm gonna miss watching santos pitch, at times he was absolutely FILTHY and a lot of fun to watch pitch.

Marqhead
12-06-2011, 09:08 PM
I approve of this trade. Closers are almost always overrated and it's a good idea to sell high on them.

I posted this is the Buehrle thread on accident, but I 100% agree. Sergio has been a remarkable story, but there's nothing wrong with selling high on a SS turned closer whose value has skyrocketed in 2 seasons.

PalehosePlanet
12-07-2011, 12:02 AM
Agreed. Closers are easy to develop and replace. Moreover, they generally have an abbreviated shelf life. I know we all loved Sergio, but moving him for a starting prospect at this point with Reed ready to take over is the right move. Molina projects to be a #2-4 guy, which replaces and hopefully even improves on what we had with Danks. The fact that he has such outstanding peripherals and not just "good stuff" means he is likelier to have some sort of success at the MLB level.

Good point. I actually like this trade weather we're rebuilding or not.

soxfanreggie
12-07-2011, 12:08 AM
If we consider that Santos is blocking our best prospect, it seems like a good trade. I have a hard time saying we should have gotten more. I'm not in the room during the negotiating process. There are a handful of people involved in these trades who know a lot more about baseball than I do.

I thought this exact same thing. If our staff feels our best prospect will be a better closer than Santos and that Molina will be a good SP, they're going to make that move. It's their job that is on the line if this doesn't pan out.

I'm not sure that KW is the guy that I want doing a re-build. Either he's going to prove me wrong or a lot of Sox fans will have to suffer as we wait for the next person to fix what went wrong. My hope is that he can get this done. Now might be the time to place $1 on the Sox in Vegas. If we get a lot out of guys like Sale, Morel, Humber, Beckham, and De Aza to where a few of those guys have mega-breakout years, that $1 could REALLY pay off in Vegas.

HomeFish
12-07-2011, 12:08 AM
I posted this is the Buehrle thread on accident, but I 100% agree. Sergio has been a remarkable story, but there's nothing wrong with selling high on a SS turned closer whose value has skyrocketed in 2 seasons.

Yep. When I first read about Sergio's feel-good story on WSI, I could never imagine that he would get this far.

slavko
12-07-2011, 12:15 AM
Doesn't help the bottom line...I thot that'd be part of any trade...Sergio was going Marmol on us toward the end...Only time I saw Reed he got bombed...Sort of reminds me of the McCarthy trade...Hope it turns out that well...If we start the season with no hope, we won't be disappointed.

What are the odds any one of the White Elephants gets moved? That would make so much difference. January is the time for White Sales, isn't it? Go to a game, look at the bench and see $40M sitting there. Think the booing was bad last year? 8,000 hard core WSI fans in a deserted ballpark and the team playing like yak dung. No, dreamers, Robin's not going to bring out the crowds.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 12:18 AM
Doesn't help the bottom line...I thot that'd be part of any trade...Sergio was going Marmol on us toward the end...Only time I saw Reed he got bombed...Sort of reminds me of the McCarthy trade...Hope it turns out that well...If we start the season with no hope, we won't be disappointed.

What are the odds any one of the White Elephants gets moved? That would make so much difference. January is the time for White Sales, isn't it? Go to a game, look at the bench and see $40M sitting there. Think the booing was bad last year? 8,000 hard core WSI fans in a deserted ballpark and the team playing like yak dung. No, dreamers, Robin's not going to bring out the crowds.

This reads like somber poetry.

LoveYourSuit
12-07-2011, 12:20 AM
First comment for me on this trade and I don't get why you would trade a power arm with one of the best sliders in the game for what many are calling a midldle of the rotation guy who will not start with a ML club next year.


Someone please make me happy about this trade.

TaylorStSox
12-07-2011, 12:38 AM
This fanbase can withstand a rebuild. The park will be semi barren, but this organization has withstood far worse times. We will be okay.

thomas35forever
12-07-2011, 12:52 AM
This fanbase can withstand a rebuild. The park will be semi barren, but this organization has withstood far worse times. We will be okay.
Tell that to Kenny when he starts calling us out for not showing up.

NardiWasHere
12-07-2011, 01:34 AM
First comment for me on this trade and I don't get why you would trade a power arm with one of the best sliders in the game for what many are calling a midldle of the rotation guy who will not start with a ML club next year.


Someone please make me happy about this trade.


Closers (especially closers on bad teams) aren't as valuable as good starting pitching.

JB98
12-07-2011, 01:35 AM
I posted this is the Buehrle thread on accident, but I 100% agree. Sergio has been a remarkable story, but there's nothing wrong with selling high on a SS turned closer whose value has skyrocketed in 2 seasons.

But did they really sell high? I don't think so. All they got was a 22-year-old who has never pitched above AA and projects as a middle-of-the-rotation starter.

I'm not opposed to trading Santos -- a non-contending team like the Sox doesn't need a closer anyway. I just don't think the return was enough to justify doing this deal.

Tragg
12-07-2011, 02:34 AM
When was the last time a closer was traded for a top starting pitching prospect straight up?
If he's really a top, it's okay. But top means top of the rotation potential. Is he? Most reports say no.

The other thing about Santos is he's signed for long and cheap. Most of these closers are signed at high salaries. That should have added a lot to his value.

I have no real complaints. But it's weird. We just signed the back end of the bullpen reliever for double Santos' salary.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2011, 02:45 AM
Not quite at the same level as when he traded with the Dodgers for the wrong player who happened to have the same name as the guy he wanted but still makes you wonder...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-1207-rogers-white-sox-chicago--20111207,0,4406560.column

Lip

SoxSpeed22
12-07-2011, 02:52 AM
I love how everyone acts like Sergio Santos is such a young guy when he's going to turn 29 next season. Molina is not playing winter ball this year, but that's not the worst thing.

ZombieRob
12-07-2011, 02:55 AM
Unreal. It's like KW is disintegrating right before us. Like you said Lip, If you're going to rebuild, go all the way. That means Konerko. I'm sure some west coast team would be very interested. Arizona?

Tragg
12-07-2011, 03:02 AM
I love how everyone acts like Sergio Santos is such a young guy when he's going to turn 29 next season. Molina is not playing winter ball this year, but that's not the worst thing.
No it isn't.
But that's not really the point...it suggests that he didn't have complete and accurate scouting reports on the player for whom he traded.

Fenway
12-07-2011, 03:25 AM
The Toronto view..

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/bluejays/article/1098143--griffin-cost-conscious-jays-find-closer-in-sergio-santos


Jays seem to be taking a page from the White Sox playbook, fans didn't come out so we not spending until they do.

gobears1987
12-07-2011, 03:33 AM
It isn't dealing Santos that I have a problem with so much as the fact that he should've brought a higher return. A low salary closer under control through most of the decade would appeal to a lot of teams. Kenny Williams hasn't really been great when it comes to making trades the last few years. I have no problem rebuilding, but this isn't a team that can go through a full rebuild when you're stuck with Peavy, Rios, and Dunn. None of them are movable unless Jim Hendry gets a job somewhere.

ilsox7
12-07-2011, 03:39 AM
It isn't dealing Santos that I have a problem with so much as the fact that he should've brought a higher return. A low salary closer under control through most of the decade would appeal to a lot of teams. Kenny Williams hasn't really been great when it comes to making trades the last few years. I have no problem rebuilding, but this isn't a team that can go through a full rebuild when you're stuck with Peavy, Rios, and Dunn. None of them are movable unless Jim Hendry gets a job somewhere.

Please site similar deals made where more return was received. Serious inquiry here. I am curious how folks saying this what not enough value come to that conclusion and would like to see some solid evidence.

russ99
12-07-2011, 07:16 AM
Doesn't help the bottom line...I thot that'd be part of any trade...Sergio was going Marmol on us toward the end...Only time I saw Reed he got bombed...Sort of reminds me of the McCarthy trade...Hope it turns out that well...If we start the season with no hope, we won't be disappointed.

What are the odds any one of the White Elephants gets moved? That would make so much difference. January is the time for White Sales, isn't it? Go to a game, look at the bench and see $40M sitting there. Think the booing was bad last year? 8,000 hard core WSI fans in a deserted ballpark and the team playing like yak dung. No, dreamers, Robin's not going to bring out the crowds.

I'd love I see a white elephant (as you so eloquently put it) moved but to do that, Jerry would need to eat an awful lot of salary and/or take back an equally awful contract and he's been averse to that historically.

One of my co-workers (a cubs fan) wondered if the Sox would go for a Dunn-Soriano cross-town deal, I might go for that...

asindc
12-07-2011, 08:38 AM
Please site similar deals made where more return was received. Serious inquiry here. I am curious how folks saying this what not enough value come to that conclusion and would like to see some solid evidence.

I would like to see that as well. I would prefer not to praise or criticize the move without more context.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2011, 08:59 AM
Please site similar deals made where more return was received. Serious inquiry here. I am curious how folks saying this what not enough value come to that conclusion and would like to see some solid evidence.

Well the Nationals got a pretty good return for Matt Capps

asindc
12-07-2011, 09:14 AM
Well the Nationals got a pretty good return for Matt Capps

The Twinkees got fleeced on that deal, and almost no one believes otherwise, even from the moment it was announced. If that is the benchmark, then we should all be prepared for a string of disappointments. Ask any Twinkees fan about that deal and almost none of them will tell you they liked it, then and now. Ask any Nats fan about that deal and almost none of them will tell you they didn't like it, then and now. Almost no scout or commentator liked the deal for the Twinkees, except in the immediate short team (the remainder of the 2010 season). Oh, and Joe Mauer's back certainly did not like the deal.

Saracen
12-07-2011, 10:04 AM
Doesn't bode well when KW isn't at all informed on who he's trading for. But then, it's KW - we're used to it.

slavko
12-07-2011, 10:18 AM
I'd love I see a white elephant (as you so eloquently put it) moved but to do that, Jerry would need to eat an awful lot of salary and/or take back an equally awful contract and he's been averse to that historically.

One of my co-workers (a cubs fan) wondered if the Sox would go for a Dunn-Soriano cross-town deal, I might go for that...

Eloquent. That's good. Thanks. Someone else called the post "somber poetry." That's good too, I think. I like it around here.

You're right about what we'd need to do to dump a White Elephant. Possibility 3: If you want Danks, pick a bozo to go with him.

Soriano can hit and run and has less time left on his contract (at more $ per); I'd do it. I've even had the thought.

CPditka
12-07-2011, 10:28 AM
Hate quoting myself, but people were asking for comparsions...here are 2 that I found. Id like to see some more. Ramos and Bell are pretty nice pieces.

Any good comparisons on what trades for closers have netted in the past?

Ones that come to mind are:

-Matt Capps for catching prospect Wilson Ramos and minor league left-hander Joe Testa

- George Sherrill for third base prospect Josh Bell and pitching prospect Steve Johnson

Im sure there are plenty more, but wanted to see the return on comperable players.

WhiffleBall
12-07-2011, 10:29 AM
Soriano can hit and run and has less time left on his contract (at more $ per); I'd do it. I've even had the thought.

Soriano for Dunn and Peavy was discussed a couple of months ago. The dollars amounts actually work out pretty evenly for both teams. The cubs also need a 1B and pitching. It's a matter of whether you think Dunn can rebound and Peavy can stay healthy vs taking a chance on a declining Soriano. Soriano's offensive numbers are still decent but are declining each year. He's also getting up there in age. There was a blurb in the trib today about the cubs offering to pay half of Soriano's $54 million/3 yrs to any team willing to take him. Baltimore was the only team that considered it and they walked away pretty quickly.

RichO
12-07-2011, 10:31 AM
Jim Margalus with a balanced take at SSS:

http://www.southsidesox.com/2011/12/7/2617268/ruminations-on-sergio-santos-and-nestor-molina

Considering Paddy's role in the entire trajectory of Molina's carrer, the notion that the Sox lacked adequate scouting on him doesn't hold up and Rogers own deciphering of the winter ball mix up makes the most sense as an explanation.