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Fenway
12-05-2011, 11:09 AM
developing

per Gammons


Breaking: Ron Santo elected to Baseball Hall of Fame by Veterans Committee.
from WLS

sox1970
12-05-2011, 11:10 AM
He got 15 out of 16.

Needed 12 votes.

Kaat 10
Hodges and Minoso got 9
Oliva 8 votes

Fenway
12-05-2011, 11:15 AM
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7318808/ron-santo-elected-baseball-hall-fame

hi im skot
12-05-2011, 11:17 AM
The best thing you can do for your career is die.

roylestillman
12-05-2011, 11:17 AM
Who says a White Sox designated hitter could never be elected to tha Hall of Fame.

Congrats and a real shame in never happened during his lifetime.

SOXPHILE
12-05-2011, 11:23 AM
The best thing you can do for your career is die.


As bad as it sounds, I couldn't agree more. He was never going to get in while alive. Now he just gets the sympathy vote.

BOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!

sox1970
12-05-2011, 11:29 AM
As bad as it sounds, I couldn't agree more. He was never going to get in while alive. Now he just gets the sympathy vote.

BOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!

I think it's more than that.

There's more of an emphasis on peak value...which I agree with.

There's more of an emphasis on the new metrics...which I'm ok with.

I don't think it's entirely a pity vote.

TommyJohn
12-05-2011, 11:32 AM
I think it would have happened earlier had the Veteran's Committee not been restructured to have the living Hall of Famers vote.

sox1970
12-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Interesting fact:

He got 15 out of 16 votes on this ballot.

In 1980, he fell off the ballot for only getting 15 out of 385 votes. 3.9%

He was put back on the ballot in 1985.

The bar has been lowered over the years, but I don't think that's a bad thing. He deserves to be in. As does Minoso.

Fenway
12-05-2011, 11:48 AM
He got 15 out of 16.

Needed 12 votes.

Kaat 10
Hodges and Minoso got 9
Oliva 8 votes

WFAN says Kiner was the only person who did not vote for Santo as he didn't like some of the things he said about the 69 Mets (Kiner was their broadcaster then)

TommyJohn
12-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Interesting note: Matt Speigel just read Santo's "Similarity List" on the Score, which is the list of the 10 players whose scores come closest to Santo. Here they are from baseball-reference.com:

Dale Murphy
Gary Gaetti
Ken Boyer
Ruben Sierra
Chili Davis
Bobby Bonilla
Brian Downing
Graig Nettles
Scott Rolen
Adrian Beltre

I highlighted the name "Chili Davis" for a reason. A few years ago, one of the Chicago Media's sneering asswipes, Dan McGrath, sneered that he would vote for Harold Baines or not based on the "Chili Davis" factor. If Chili Davis deserved a Hall vote, then he would vote for Baines, sneered McGrath. And now, a player who comes close to Chili has been elected. Will Asswipe now change his tune and tout Harold for the Hall? This little fact is for all those who care about the irrelevant White Sox. (I hope I don't have to explain that one.) This to me just highlights the sneering asswipery of some sneering asswipe members of the media.

Trivia: Santo is now the 5th Hall of Famer to play for both the Cubs and White Sox after Clark Griffith, Johnny Evers, Hoyt Wilhelm and Rich Gossage.

soxinem1
12-05-2011, 11:49 AM
They should just change the name from Hall of Fame to Hall of Very Good.

I think Jim Rice getting in just further watered everything down.

Honestly, how do you keep Dale Murphy, Harold Baines, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, and Minnie Minoso out now?

Robin Ventura looks to be HOF caliber now. I loved Robin, and he was a much better personality as a player than Santo was, but is he HOF worthy? Hardly.

Buddy Bell, Graig Nettles, etc. How do you keep them out?

There were only a few 3B in the HOF, and there was a reason.

russ99
12-05-2011, 12:06 PM
Congrats to Ron's family, and despite the Cub hatred here, he was a White Sox and deserves recognition. He may not have deserved this purely on numbers, but how much of a challenge it was for him to put up those numbers.

I'm very disappointed that Minnie didn't get in. It stinks that the voters don't seem to get the whole picture on Minoso and only focus on his MLB numbers, and the publicity stunts.

sox1970
12-05-2011, 12:13 PM
They should just change the name from Hall of Fame to Hall of Very Good.

I think Jim Rice getting in just further watered everything down.

Honestly, how do you keep Dale Murphy, Harold Baines, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, and Minnie Minoso out now?

Robin Ventura looks to be HOF caliber now. I loved Robin, and he was a much better personality as a player than Santo was, but is he HOF worthy? Hardly.

Buddy Bell, Graig Nettles, etc. How do you keep them out?

There were only a few 3B in the HOF, and there was a reason.

It goes back to peak value. Santo played 13 seasons at 3B at a very high level. According to Bill James, he's the 6th best 3B of all time...and there are 14 (I believe) 3B in the Hall.

And as far as Jim Rice, he had a 12 year period where he hit .304, averaged 106 RBIs, won an MVP, had 5 other top-5 MVPs. Peak value counts. And as we see more college players come into the majors and have shorter careers, we'll see more of today's great players have careers more like Rice, and less like Aaron and Mays.

Golden Sox
12-05-2011, 12:23 PM
The only positive thing I can see about the Pizza Man getting into the HOF is that he didn't live to see it.He couldn't carry Dick Allens jockstrap. Allens numbers are better offensively than the Pizza Man. Numerous people have always knocked Allens character. What about Pizza Mans character? When the players went out on strike in 1972, a handful of players crossed the picket line and went against there union. Pizza Man was one of them. For you younger people out there reading this, the 1972 strike was over benefits for the players wife and kids. He was one of the higher paid players at the time, and he didn't care that his fellow players wanted insurance coverage for their families.

Fenway
12-05-2011, 12:25 PM
Ron Santo (15 votes, 93.75%); Jim Kaat (10 votes, 62.5%); Gil Hodges (9 votes, 56.25%); Minnie Minoso (9 votes, 56.25%); Tony Oliva (8 votes, 50%); Buzzie Bavasi, Ken Boyer, Charlie Finley, Allie Reynolds and Luis Tiant each received less than three votes.

Irishsox1
12-05-2011, 12:44 PM
There is usually some minor uproar about what hat will go on the players plaque, will Santo's plaque have the original hair or the toupee look?

thomas35forever
12-05-2011, 12:49 PM
It's just a shame that this couldn't happen when he was still breathing. Congratulations on the posthumous induction, Ron.

SOXPHILE
12-05-2011, 12:51 PM
Interesting note: Matt Speigel just read Santo's "Similarity List" on the Score, which is the list of the 10 players whose scores come closest to Santo. Here they are from baseball-reference.com:

Dale Murphy
Gary Gaetti
Ken Boyer
Ruben Sierra
Chili Davis
Bobby Bonilla
Brian Downing
Graig Nettles
Scott Rolen
Adrian Beltre

I highlighted the name "Chili Davis" for a reason. A few years ago, one of the Chicago Media's sneering asswipes, Dan McGrath, sneered that he would vote for Harold Baines or not based on the "Chili Davis" factor. If Chili Davis deserved a Hall vote, then he would vote for Baines, sneered McGrath. And now, a player who comes close to Chili has been elected. Will Asswipe now change his tune and tout Harold for the Hall? This little fact is for all those who care about the irrelevant White Sox. (I hope I don't have to explain that one.) This to me just highlights the sneering asswipery of some sneering asswipe members of the media.

Trivia: Santo is now the 5th Hall of Famer to play for both the Cubs and White Sox after Clark Griffith, Johnny Evers, Hoyt Wilhelm and Rich Gossage.


I heard that too, very interesting. And I also agree with the post after yours by soxinem1 about they may as well change the name from the Hall of Fame to the Hall of Very Good. The Brooks Robinson angle (HE'S IN, SO SANTO SHOULD BE TOO !!) doesn't hold water with me. Just because another player who is borderline got in, doesn't then mean that another player should likewise get in.

Golden Sox: Excellent post as well. That is another example about what a raging SOB the guy was, and there are many. I could never stand that dry cleaned, white washed image and revisionist history the media created and sold to the stupid Cubs Game Fans who slurped it up like pre-chewed pablum. The image of some lovable, grandfatherly, kind old ex-Cubs player, who has funny quarks and sometimes makes a silly little mistake or malapropism here or there, but golly gee whiz ! He just wants the Cubbie to win. Hooray ! It was all B.S.

gobears1987
12-05-2011, 01:12 PM
He definitely does not deserve it. Getting into Cooperstown doesn't have the meaning it used to. Nothing in his stats screams Hall of Fame to me.

gobears1987
12-05-2011, 01:13 PM
If Ron Santo is a Hall of Famer, then Paul Konerko belongs too.

Does PK belong? No, but neither does Santo.

AzureJazzMan
12-05-2011, 01:21 PM
All I can do to react, is to use a quote from the man himself.... "Noooooooooo Ooooooooohhhh Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!" -Ron Santo

veeter
12-05-2011, 01:23 PM
I'm just glad all the cubbie whining is over. Too many members from a team that didn't win crap have gotten in. Also, the fact he played with diabetes should be a non-issue. GMAB.

SI1020
12-05-2011, 01:36 PM
I heard that too, very interesting. And I also agree with the post after yours by soxinem1 about they may as well change the name from the Hall of Fame to the Hall of Very Good. The Brooks Robinson angle (HE'S IN, SO SANTO SHOULD BE TOO !!) doesn't hold water with me. Just because another player who is borderline got in, doesn't then mean that another player should likewise get in.
I'm one of the biggest critics of the lowered standards of the Baseball HOF. That being said Brooks Robinson decidedly belongs in. The best fielding 3b man ever by far and arguably the best defensive player on the field for most of his career. He was also much better offensively than players like Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazeroski who got in primarily on their fielding ability.

TDog
12-05-2011, 02:24 PM
I heard that too, very interesting. And I also agree with the post after yours by soxinem1 about they may as well change the name from the Hall of Fame to the Hall of Very Good. The Brooks Robinson angle (HE'S IN, SO SANTO SHOULD BE TOO !!) doesn't hold water with me. Just because another player who is borderline got in, doesn't then mean that another player should likewise get in. ...

Brooks Robinson was in no way borderline. Luis Aparicio was in no way borderline. Ozzie Smith was in no way borderline. Omar Vizquel will be in no way borderline. And although Vizquel will get in for his glove, he still proved a better White Sox DH than Ron Santo, and at a more advanced age. But Santo isn't being honored because of his career with the White Sox. He honors that great 1969 Cubs team, with more than a third of the everyday players, a quarter of the starting rotation (and that doesn't include the starter with two career no-hitters) and manager destined for the Hall of Fame.

Santo is appreciably less deserving of the Hall of Fame than Harold Baines. Maybe there will be a veteran's committee picked to vote Baines in one day.

I don't think Santo belongs in the Hall of Fame. Maybe whining and complaining that you belong in the Hall of Fame is the way to get in the Hall of Fame if voters don't seem to believe you do. Eventually. It worked for Blyleven and, although posthumously, Santo. Baines and Santo's one-time teammate Jim Kaat, though, have too much dignity.

TommyJohn
12-05-2011, 02:34 PM
I heard that too, very interesting. And I also agree with the post after yours by soxinem1 about they may as well change the name from the Hall of Fame to the Hall of Very Good. The Brooks Robinson angle (HE'S IN, SO SANTO SHOULD BE TOO !!) doesn't hold water with me. Just because another player who is borderline got in, doesn't then mean that another player should likewise get in.

Golden Sox: Excellent post as well. That is another example about what a raging SOB the guy was, and there are many. I could never stand that dry cleaned, white washed image and revisionist history the media created and sold to the stupid Cubs Game Fans who slurped it up like pre-chewed pablum. The image of some lovable, grandfatherly, kind old ex-Cubs player, who has funny quarks and sometimes makes a silly little mistake or malapropism here or there, but golly gee whiz ! He just wants the Cubbie to win. Hooray ! It was all B.S.

Oh, I'm not opposed to Santo's election per se. I am just highlighting the asswipery of asswad McGrath. But no one here needs to be reminded of that.

SOXPHILE
12-05-2011, 03:11 PM
Just to clarify a bit, I also do not think Brooks Robinson is a borderline HOF'er. I do believe he belongs in there. I just bring him up because he is always the guy the media and the Cubs Game Fans bring up when trumpeting Santo's achievments, claiming Santo was just as good as him, and if he got in, then Santo should get in, etc.

I think a guy that one would say was bordline at best would be someone like a Phil Rizzuto. But I'm not going to go around saying "well, if he's in, than Minoso, Santo, etc. should be in too !"

white sox bill
12-05-2011, 03:33 PM
I guess I'm guilty of not paying much attention to the cub loving media so someone please correct me if I'm off base here, but it seems Santo went from jerk of the earth to a much milder and likable human being in his later yrs. I've heard several stories of how much more congenial he was at the time of his death. I'm not saying he deserves enshrinement because of that but it sounds like he was more or less a reformed jerk.

g0g0
12-05-2011, 03:34 PM
:bandance:

Congratulations Ron! Though it's a shame that you had to pass away for them to right their wrong.

Santo is was one of the best all-around 3rd basemen of his era and compares favorably with other HOFers as well as 3rd basemen in the HOF. Just because he didn't get in when he should have, doesn't make him a pity vote.

I hope he's clicking his heels wherever he is right now. :smile:

34rancher
12-05-2011, 03:53 PM
They should just change the name from Hall of Fame to Hall of Very Good.

I think Jim Rice getting in just further watered everything down.

Honestly, how do you keep Dale Murphy, Harold Baines, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Jack Morris, and Minnie Minoso out now?

Robin Ventura looks to be HOF caliber now. I loved Robin, and he was a much better personality as a player than Santo was, but is he HOF worthy? Hardly.

Buddy Bell, Graig Nettles, etc. How do you keep them out?

There were only a few 3B in the HOF, and there was a reason.
I have used Robin as the reason Ron should not have been in. You mean winning more golden gloves than other shortstops in his era? Look at their per at bat numbers and Ventura is the Santo of his era. Maybe by whining his way through not being elected will get him in, although I believe neither of them belong in.

It goes back to peak value. Santo played 13 seasons at 3B at a very high level. According to Bill James, he's the 6th best 3B of all time...and there are 14 (I believe) 3B in the Hall .

And as far as Jim Rice, he had a 12 year period where he hit .304, averaged 106 RBIs, won an MVP, had 5 other top-5 MVPs. Peak value counts. And as we see more college players come into the majors and have shorter careers, we'll see more of today's great players have careers more like Rice, and less like Aaron and Mays.

I am amazed at how Bill James can re-write the history and how numbers are looked at. The revisionist theory just makes me shake my head a little. I understand it for current guys, but to re-evaluate numbers from 40 years ago and justify now? Just ugh.

As for Ron, he was a nice enough guy if you met him, and he did a LOT for childhood diabetes, which he should be revered for. I just do not understand putting someone in the Hall of Fame now when the last 40 years were not good enough. Politics suck and waiting to elect him until he was dead is just stomach turning.

TommyGavinFloyd
12-05-2011, 04:04 PM
He got 43 percent of the vote, then the Veteran's Committee was revamped, he didn't get in, so they revamp the committee again, and he's finally in. Might as well just have called it The Committee To Elect Ron Santo. Whatever. I'm just glad he wasn't alive for this. After all his years of shameless whining and grandstanding about it, he didn't deserve it.

g0g0
12-05-2011, 04:09 PM
He got 43 percent of the vote, then the Veteran's Committee was revamped, he didn't get in, so they revamp the committee again, and he's finally in. Might as well just have called it The Committee To Elect Ron Santo. Whatever. I'm just glad he wasn't alive for this. After all his years of shameless whining and grandstanding about it, he didn't deserve it.

:o: Classy.

cws05champ
12-05-2011, 04:18 PM
I don't know...it's just feels kind of like a slap in the face now that he's passed. I think we should start a campaign to get him elected wearing a White Sox cap :cool:

Railsplitter
12-05-2011, 04:35 PM
If Santo can get in than Harold Baines who, like Santo, never led his league in ant major offensive catagory, should be in, too.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2011, 04:48 PM
In the past I spoke with two members of the voting committee who directly told me they would never vote for Ron because of his self-promoting. I don't think there was a movement to 'wait' until he died at all.

I think he simply pissed off voters who felt there should have been more professional decorum.

Lip

g0g0
12-05-2011, 05:10 PM
In the past I spoke with two members of the voting committee who directly told me they would never vote for Ron because of his self-promoting. I don't think there was a movement to 'wait' until he died at all.

I think he simply pissed off voters who felt there should have been more professional decorum.

Lip

If true then that's discouraging. There are lots of pricks in the HOF. The man thought he should be in there. It was annoying, but it was his right to say it. I guess womanizing, roids, etc. are acceptable HOF criteria.

C-Dawg
12-05-2011, 05:16 PM
Santos was one of the best all-around 3rd basemen of his era and compares favorably with other HOFers as well as 3rd basemen in the HOF.

Perhaps, but what about Ron Santo?

TDog
12-05-2011, 06:04 PM
:o: Classy.

Santo so lacked class, both on the field as a baseball player and off the field during and after his career, that you shouldn't expect people disappointed with his election to be inspired to greet the news with class.

Risk
12-05-2011, 06:21 PM
Santo so lacked class, both on the field as a baseball player and off the field during and after his career, that you shouldn't expect people disappointed with his election to be inspired to greet the news with class.

One of the many things that has always bothered me about this whole "Santo for the Hall of Fame" saga has been the preposterous whitewashing of history to show the type of person that Santo was. I get that lots of former players lobby to get into the Hall of Fame, but the things done to get Santo into the Hall was way over the top, and not only that, Santo was a dick when he was a player to opponents; a dick to his own teammates; and a dick to the general public until the "Ron Santo Re-imaging Campaign/Hall of Fame" nonsense came about in the late 80's.

I don't expect Hall of Famers to be model citizens, but I do, you know, expect them to be worthy of the Hall--which was something that was shown time and time again (by the writers, his peers and the Veterans Committee until it was changed again) that Santo did not deserve election.

Congrats Cub fans, you have your Phil Rizzuto (minus the World Series rings).

Risk

Zakath
12-05-2011, 07:02 PM
Jim Kaat (10 votes, 62.5%)

16 Gold Gloves and the guy isn't in. Something is wrong there.

AZChiSoxFan
12-05-2011, 07:58 PM
He got 43 percent of the vote, then the Veteran's Committee was revamped, he didn't get in, so they revamp the committee again, and he's finally in. Might as well just have called it The Committee To Elect Ron Santo. Whatever. I'm just glad he wasn't alive for this. After all his years of shameless whining and grandstanding about it, he didn't deserve it.


Spot on.

AZChiSoxFan
12-05-2011, 07:59 PM
Perhaps, but what about Ron Santo?

ROFL. Well played.

WSox597
12-05-2011, 08:22 PM
Well, he's in, and there's nothing we can do about it. I'm another vote for him in the Hall of Very Good. Diabetes should have nothing to do with the election.

I had nothing against him, but I bet if you could find Don Young, he may have something to say about Santo's character.

I grew up in a two team household, and I was outnumbered by Cub fans. Most of those Cub fans weren't wild about Santo back then. He was not exactly Mr. Clutch at the plate per those family members.

I didn't watch them much, even then, there's only so much a man can stand. I do remember the debacle in '69, though. It was hard to miss.

Let's just hope nobody wearing Cubbie blue gets it into their head to nominate him for the broadcasting wing. THAT would be a real travesty.

chisoxjtrain
12-05-2011, 08:35 PM
I am arguing with a friend of mine over Ron Santo. Can you guys who know more than I do give me some reasons why Ron Santo is an *******?

DSpivack
12-05-2011, 08:39 PM
One of the many things that has always bothered me about this whole "Santo for the Hall of Fame" saga has been the preposterous whitewashing of history to show the type of person that Santo was. I get that lots of former players lobby to get into the Hall of Fame, but the things done to get Santo into the Hall was way over the top, and not only that, Santo was a dick when he was a player to opponents; a dick to his own teammates; and a dick to the general public until the "Ron Santo Re-imaging Campaign/Hall of Fame" nonsense came about in the late 80's.

I don't expect Hall of Famers to be model citizens, but I do, you know, expect them to be worthy of the Hall--which was something that was shown time and time again (by the writers, his peers and the Veterans Committee until it was changed again) that Santo did not deserve election.

Congrats Cub fans, you have your Phil Rizzuto (minus the World Series rings).

Risk

Ty Cobb was a bigger ass, but also a vastly superior player.

SOXPHILE
12-05-2011, 10:07 PM
I am arguing with a friend of mine over Ron Santo. Can you guys who know more than I do give me some reasons why Ron Santo is an *******?

-the Don Young incident, for which he was actually booed at Wrigley. You won't hear the Cubs revisionists mention that one. Many probably don't know about it.

-The whole clicking the heals thing. We tend to forget or not realize in this day and age of NFL players dancing and celebrating a first down, MLB players standing at the plate admiring a homerun, and NBA players showboating, that that type of thing was not common. He pissed off a lot of opponents and teammates by doing it. Gil Hodges called him out on it too, and like the rabbit eared jackass Santo was, he let it get to him.

-as a twentysomething player, got pissed at his seventy something
manager Leo Durocher, and attacked him and got into a fight with him. I can still hear him recalling the incident many years later giving props to Durocher for putting up a good fight and not backing down. Yeah, you were a real man there, Santo. Ass.

-the non stop, never ending, eternal whining, bitching and moaning about not being in the HOF, and basically turning his hoped for selection into a cottage industry.

-his bitching and moaning about his year with the White Sox, trying to pretend it never happened, and his behavior while he was there. Yes, Cubs fans, he was a Sox player too, albeit for only one year. And he wanted to go there. He demanded to be traded.

That's just a few. There's more.

TDog
12-05-2011, 10:17 PM
I am arguing with a friend of mine over Ron Santo. Can you guys who know more than I do give me some reasons why Ron Santo is an *******?


This looks like it could be a thread on its own. I'll offer a couple of things.

Things came out about what a lousy teammate Santo was in 1969. I was 12 at the time, and this is what I was told by Cubs fans I knew who were among the many booing Santo in the early 1970s. Of course, 1969 was the year that Santo used to run clicking his heels into the clubhouse ever time the Cubs won at home (they would walk to the clubhouse down the third base line -- I don't know if that's done anymore, so long has it been since I've seen a Cubs game. He did this after it was publicly noted how much other teams hated it, considering it taunting.

Maybe the heel-clicking thing on its own wouldn't have been so bad if Santo hadn't turned on his own teammates when the clicking stopped when things got ugly. The Cubs had a rookie centerfielder, Don Young, who Santo publicly berated after a misplay that cost a game.

There was a game lost by fourth starter (in the era of four-man rotations, the Cubs had fourth-starter issues even as they were running away with the NL East) Dick Selma who, on a 3-2, two out count with runners on first and second, threw to third base attempting to catch the runner breaking. Selma seemed to believe it was a set play that Santo had acknowledged. Santo, who appeared not to have a clue there was a throw coming, ripped into Selma. The incident was later sanitized in a feel-good Cubs book (http://books.google.com/books?id=pnr2jM2t-UkC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=dick+selma%2Bron+santo&source=bl&ots=LbELSKRYcO&sig=hn_PRNZKYeAHmXqEYtsv7dDNvVM&hl=en&ei=jIfdTtayFIH9iQL3oaH-Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=dick%20selma%2Bron%20santo&f=false). (Edit: The link doesn't seem to work as it did when I previewed it, but the story is on page 193 of Tales from the Cubs Dugout.)

The hitter on the play was Richie Allen. Later, the two would be teammates, although it would be Allen who would be called Dick then, and that wasn't a good Santo year either. There might be old Cubs toeing the party line today, but Santo was in his day thoroughly despised as a teammate.

DrCrawdad
12-05-2011, 10:29 PM
-the Don Young incident, for which he was actually booed at Wrigley. You won't hear the Cubs revisionists mention that one. Many probably don't know about it.

-The whole clicking the heals thing. We tend to forget or not realize in this day and age of NFL players dancing and celebrating a first down, MLB players standing at the plate admiring a homerun, and NBA players showboating, that that type of thing was not common. He pissed off a lot of opponents and teammates by doing it. Gil Hodges called him out on it too, and like the rabbit eared jackass Santo was, he let it get to him.

-as a twentysomething player, got pissed at his seventy something
manager Leo Durocher, and attacked him and got into a fight with him. I can still hear him recalling the incident many years later giving props to Durocher for putting up a good fight and not backing down. Yeah, you were a real man there, Santo. Ass.

-the non stop, never ending, eternal whining, bitching and moaning about not being in the HOF, and basically turning his hoped for selection into a cottage industry.

-his bitching and moaning about his year withe the White Sox, trying to pretend it never happened, and his behavior while he was there. Yes, Cubs fans, he was a Sox player too, albeit for only one year. And he wanted to go there. He demanded to be traded.

That's just a few. There's more.

In response to the last point. Santo knew how to play to his audience. I watched a few minutes of that lousy documentary about Santo. And in that movie Santo claims to not have known that the Sox played in Chicago and that he only knew of the Cubs. If that was true, he's an idiot. I tend not to believe him on this account. I believe he was simply playing to Cub fans, who eat up those, "know one knows about the Sox stories" and it fuels their egos.

Ten plus years ago I recall an interview of Santo on the SCORE. Santo acknowledged that he had ripped the Sox but said that in this interview he spoke well of the Sox and Sox ownership in this brief term with the Sox.

Ron Santo may well deserve to be in the Hall of Fame and congratulations to him on this achievement. Too bad Santo didn't get voted in during his life, if he was deserving. Santo though was the worst broadcaster, ever. One necessity for a radio broadcaster is an ability to speak and to express themselves in a coherent manner. Santo failed in those regards.

SI1020
12-05-2011, 10:59 PM
There was a game lost by fourth starter (in the era of four-man rotations, the Cubs had fourth-starter issues even as they were running away with the NL East) Dick Selma who, on a 3-2, two out count with runners on first and second, threw to third base attempting to catch the runner breaking. Selma seemed to believe it was a set play that Santo had acknowledged. Santo, who appeared not to have a clue there was a throw coming, ripped into Selma. The incident was later sanitized in a feel-good Cubs book (http://books.google.com/books?id=pnr2jM2t-UkC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=dick+selma%2Bron+santo&source=bl&ots=LbELSKRYcO&sig=hn_PRNZKYeAHmXqEYtsv7dDNvVM&hl=en&ei=jIfdTtayFIH9iQL3oaH-Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=dick%20selma%2Bron%20santo&f=false). (Edit: The link doesn't seem to work as it did when I previewed it, but the story is on page 193 of Tales from the Cubs Dugout.)

The hitter on the play was Richie Allen. Later, the two would be teammates, although it would be Allen who would be called Dick then, and that wasn't a good Santo year either. There might be old Cubs toeing the party line today, but Santo was in his day thoroughly despised as a teammate. Here is the game in question. The pickoff attempt came in the bottom of the 3rd inning. It was an especially bitter defeat for the Cubs as they were in the midst of their September swoon and were desperately trying to get back into the race.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI196909110.shtml

soxinem1
12-05-2011, 11:30 PM
If Ron Santo is a Hall of Famer, then Paul Konerko belongs too.

Does PK belong? No, but neither does Santo.

Not to thread hijack, but PK is just 104 HR from 500. Does he get in if he gets that number? He's only 35.

Rice and Santo open the doors for others now, so the same rationale should apply.

If Rafael Palmeiro didn't pop his test, would he be HOF worthy? 3K hits, the 569 HR's, etc. He rarely led the league in any categories, once in runs, hits, and two-baggers. Yet his numbers were staggering and he probably would have gotten 600 HR if he doesn't blow his test.

Ugh, what a mess......:scratch:

soxinem1
12-05-2011, 11:38 PM
There is usually some minor uproar about what hat will go on the players plaque, will Santo's plaque have the original hair or the toupee look?

I vote for the rug, along with a push button menu of recordings of Ron in his own words:

Blast teammates.
Show Up Opponents.
Field grounders on the thick, tall Wrigley INF...
Cry.
Moan.
Whail
Bitch.
Scream.
Beg.
Plead.
Self-promote...... All the way to the HOVG.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2011, 12:22 AM
Point of clarification.

Santo didn't demand a trade from the Cubs. The Cubs decided to rebuild and was shopping all their vets. They had worked out a deal with the Angels when Santo said he'd refuse to go and would retire first. He then stated the only place he'd go would be to the White Sox because he wanted to stay in Chicago.

He got his wish. (Much to the Sox regret - just ask guys like Allen and Carlos May)

Lip

cub killer
12-06-2011, 07:58 AM
Well, he's in, and there's nothing we can do about it. I'm another vote for him in the Hall of Very Good. Diabetes should have nothing to do with the election.

I had nothing against him, but I bet if you could find Don Young, he may have something to say about Santo's character.

I grew up in a two team household, and I was outnumbered by Cub fans. Most of those Cub fans weren't wild about Santo back then. He was not exactly Mr. Clutch at the plate per those family members.

I didn't watch them much, even then, there's only so much a man can stand. I do remember the debacle in '69, though. It was hard to miss.

Well said. It shouldn't matter what happened to the player off the field, it should be all about what he did on it. And he didn't do enough. He does not deserve to be in the HoF.

This is a pity induction, plain and simple. Which is sad, because the country's most famous HoF (the 1st?) should have more integrity than that.

cub killer
12-06-2011, 08:22 AM
I'm just glad all the cubbie whining is over. Too many members from a team that didn't win crap have gotten in. Also, the fact he played with diabetes should be a non-issue. GMAB.

Haha, the bolded reminded me of what Richard Roeper used to erroneously say in the Sun-Times often. He'd say, "The best thing to happen to Sox fans would be if the cubs won the World Series, because then their fans would stop their whining." Perhaps it was tongue-in-cheek, but if not, then he was way off because the whining would be replaced by gloating, which is 10000x worse.

Well said about the diabetes. There are posters here who deal with equal or worse health problems, and none of them demand special treatment. During R.S.'s whining campaign, it seemed that a central theme was: "Poor Ron has diabetes! Let him in the Hall because of that! C'mon!:whiner:". As if he was the only one.

g0g0
12-06-2011, 10:24 AM
Perhaps, but what about Ron Santo?

You have a keen eye C-Dawg - or should it be C-Dog?

g0g0
12-06-2011, 10:27 AM
Everyone keeps coming back to his personality, but that has nothing to do with it. If it kept him out of the HOF the first few times, then it would have now too. Tell me how his stats don't compare to other HOF of his time as well as other HOF 3rd basemen?

guillensdisciple
12-06-2011, 10:35 AM
They compare and that's fine and dandy but I don't think that's the point. I would really notcare and actually applaud Santos's selection had it been for any other franchise. No, I am not doing this out of spite for my favorite teams rival- this is solely because of how everything in Chicago is so cast around things like this. 4 pages in the newspaper? Really? I'm sorry if and when Minnoso gets elected to the hall there will probably only be a cut out. Why? Because that's all that has happened in this Cubs machine. I have given up on equality of coverage and I don't really get agitated by the cubs as a team anymore. I just understand why so many Sox fans get irritated.

The reality is, we shouldn't. The Cubs are irrelevant. I don't mean this in a mean way Gogo but rather in a way that any other team should 't matter to a white Sox fan.

g0g0
12-06-2011, 10:56 AM
They compare and that's fine and dandy but I don't think that's the point. I would really notcare and actually applaud Santos's selection had it been for any other franchise. No, I am not doing this out of spite for my favorite teams rival- this is solely because of how everything in Chicago is so cast around things like this. 4 pages in the newspaper? Really? I'm sorry if and when Minnoso gets elected to the hall there will probably only be a cut out. Why? Because that's all that has happened in this Cubs machine. I have given up on equality of coverage and I don't really get agitated by the cubs as a team anymore. I just understand why so many Sox fans get irritated.

The reality is, we shouldn't. The Cubs are irrelevant. I don't mean this in a mean way Gogo but rather in a way that any other team should 't matter to a white Sox fan.

I can understand why he wouldn't (won't) win any popularity contests, and am not bothered by it. (How can I be when actively visiting a WS board as a Cubs fan :D:). I just think it was a little harsh to say:

"I'm just glad he wasn't alive for this. After all his years of shameless whining and grandstanding about it, he didn't deserve it"

soxinem1
12-06-2011, 10:59 AM
Everyone keeps coming back to his personality, but that has nothing to do with it. If it kept him out of the HOF the first few times, then it would have now too. Tell me how his stats don't compare to other HOF of his time as well as other HOF 3rd basemen?

When the Golden Shower...... I mean Golden Era Committee submitted their resumes for this assignment, I'll bet the cover letters all advocated Santo being elected to the HOVG.

Amazing what you can do if you lower the amount of voters, because if he would have failed this time, they would probably lower the vote total required for admission to eight for the 2013 class and added his family members to the committee.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2011, 11:22 AM
In a way if you think about it, this adds to the embarrassment of the Cubs.

They now had four hall of famers on those teams in the late 60's / early 70's and never won ****.

I wonder how many other times that happened?

Lip

Noneck
12-06-2011, 11:40 AM
Lip,

I think it happened to the giants in the early 60's with Mays, McCovey, Perry, Cepeda and Marichal. But they did go to the series once.

TommyJohn
12-06-2011, 12:11 PM
In a way if you think about it, this adds to the embarrassment of the Cubs.

They now had four hall of famers on those teams in the late 60's / early 70's and never won ****.

I wonder how many other times that happened?

Lip

Interesting trivia: The 1966 Cubs have 5 Hall of Famers: Banks, Williams, Jenkins, Santo and Robin Roberts-plus manager Leo Durocher. Their final record was 59-103.

The 1962 Cubs had four HOFers: Santo, Banks, Willaims and Lou Brock. They also went 59-103.

SOXPHILE
12-06-2011, 01:00 PM
I can understand why he wouldn't (won't) win any popularity contests, and am not bothered by it. (How can I be when actively visiting a WS board as a Cubs fan :D:). I just think it was a little harsh to say:

"I'm just glad he wasn't alive for this. After all his years of shameless whining and grandstanding about it, he didn't deserve it"


Nobody is saying he wasn't a good player. We just don't think he was worthy of the Hall of Fame. Again, it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Really Good. Phil Rizutto for example, was a good player, but probably doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Him being a Yankee has almost everything to do with him getting in. Now, couple the opinions about Santo not deserving it, with the years and years and years of him publicly bitching and moaning about it, and the the Hooterville Chicago media making a cottage industry out of it; Years and years of the print & electronic media doing endless stories and articles about him, how he should get in, and what an imense tragedy it was when he wasn't elected each year. That one year, Santo actually invited the media to his house to "witness" the call from Cooperstown letting him know he got in. WHOOPS ! Call came in, but it was to tell him he fell short again. And please don't do the old tried and true and bring up Brooks Robinson. He was a better 3rd baseman, won 3 pennants and two World Series.

Nobody is saying we're glad he's dead. We're saying that we are glad that because of all this and more, he didn't get to see it.

TDog
12-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Nobody is saying he wasn't a good player. We just don't think he was worthy of the Hall of Fame. ...

Nobody is saying we're glad he's dead. We're saying that we are glad that because of all this and more, he didn't get to see it.

The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

There are jerks in the Hall of Fame, of course. But you have to be great to be both a jerk and Hall of Fame worthy. The sort of player Santo was, he should have been Brooks Robinson classy even to sniff the Hall of Fame.

Santo wasn't even close.

TommyGavinFloyd
12-06-2011, 03:47 PM
Nobody is saying he wasn't a good player. We just don't think he was worthy of the Hall of Fame. Again, it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Really Good. Phil Rizutto for example, was a good player, but probably doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Him being a Yankee has almost everything to do with him getting in. Now, couple the opinions about Santo not deserving it, with the years and years and years of him publicly bitching and moaning about it, and the the Hooterville Chicago media making a cottage industry out of it; Years and years of the print & electronic media doing endless stories and articles about him, how he should get in, and what an imense tragedy it was when he wasn't elected each year. That one year, Santo actually invited the media to his house to "witness" the call from Cooperstown letting him know he got in. WHOOPS ! Call came in, but it was to tell him he fell short again. And please don't do the old tried and true and bring up Brooks Robinson. He was a better 3rd baseman, won 3 pennants and two World Series.

Nobody is saying we're glad he's dead. We're saying that we are glad that because of all this and more, he didn't get to see it.

Exactly. I'm not saying I'm glad he is dead but after all the years of crap, I didn't want him to be rewarded by going into the Hall of Fame. My preference would be him living until he's 90 and never getting in but either way, he didn't get to see the day. Whatever. If it's harsh, it's harsh, I don't care.

g0g0
12-06-2011, 04:08 PM
The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

There are jerks in the Hall of Fame, of course. But you have to be great to be both a jerk and Hall of Fame worthy. The sort of player Santo was, he should have been Brooks Robinson classy even to sniff the Hall of Fame.

Santo wasn't even close.

That's interesting you mention Brooks as he said this about Santo getting in:

“Everyone on our committee could not see how he did not get in with the writers. This is really the best way to do it — the way we did it here.”

DSpivack
12-06-2011, 04:43 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-1206-hall-van-dyck--20111206,0,1653224.story

The article says that in discussing Santo, the committee also paid heed to his "immense passion" for baseball and for playing with Diabetes and working with the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation for years following his career.

What a joke.

Lip Man 1
12-06-2011, 05:52 PM
If that is now part of the criteria Minoso and Pierce should have been elected 20 years ago. Billy has helped raise millions for children's cancer care.

Lip

LongLiveFisk
12-06-2011, 07:29 PM
I didn't read through this whole thread so I apologize if I am repeating something that has been mentioned already, but I know I read somewhere that certain member(s) of the hall did not want to vote for Santo because they were tired of him "whining about it." Which to me, is beyond stupid, but it really wouldn't surprise me.

Now of course, I don't know for sure if this is true, but if it is, this whole thing would make perfect sense. The implication here is that he wasn't kept out because he did not qualify but because of his whining. So now all of a sudden, he's voted in. It's almost as if they knew all along that he was qualified but just didn't want to give him the satisfaction of enjoying it or something. I really hope this isn't the case because if it is, how ****ing petty.

Just a thought. :shrug:

SBSoxFan
12-06-2011, 11:17 PM
In response to the last point. Santo knew how to play to his audience. I watched a few minutes of that lousy documentary about Santo. And in that movie Santo claims to not have known that the Sox played in Chicago and that he only knew of the Cubs. If that was true, he's an idiot. I tend not to believe him on this account. I believe he was simply playing to Cub fans, who eat up those, "know one knows about the Sox stories" and it fuels their egos.

Point of clarification.

Santo didn't demand a trade from the Cubs. The Cubs decided to rebuild and was shopping all their vets. They had worked out a deal with the Angels when Santo said he'd refuse to go and would retire first. He then stated the only place he'd go would be to the White Sox because he wanted to stay in Chicago.

He got his wish. (Much to the Sox regret - just ask guys like Allen and Carlos May)

Lip

If both of these are accurate, then something is amiss.

DrCrawdad
12-07-2011, 12:41 AM
In response to the last point. Santo knew how to play to his audience. I watched a few minutes of that lousy documentary about Santo. And in that movie Santo claims to not have known that the Sox played in Chicago and that he only knew of the Cubs. If that was true, he's an idiot. I tend not to believe him on this account. I believe he was simply playing to Cub fans, who eat up those, "know one knows about the Sox stories" and it fuels their egos.

If both of these are accurate, then something is amiss.

Let me clarify...

Santo said that when he was drafted (1959), that he wasn't aware that the Sox even played in Chicago.

I know Santo was drafted before the Sox '59 American League Pennant season. But how does an alleged baseball fan not know where a team, in the then 2nd largest city in America (or 3rd), a team that was even before '59 doing very, very well, how the hell does Santo not know that the Sox played in Chicago but he (supposedly) knew that the then horrid Cubbies played here?

JB98
12-07-2011, 01:55 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-1206-hall-van-dyck--20111206,0,1653224.story

The article says that in discussing Santo, the committee also paid heed to his "immense passion" for baseball and for playing with Diabetes and working with the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation for years following his career.

What a joke.

I have immense passion for baseball also.

JB98 for Hall of Fame!

TDog
12-07-2011, 03:48 AM
That's interesting you mention Brooks as he said this about Santo getting in:

“Everyone on our committee could not see how he did not get in with the writers. This is really the best way to do it — the way we did it here.”

Brooks Robinson is too classy to say anything else. That's one of the reasons he got in the Hall of Fame so quickly.

It wasn't just the writers who snubbed Santo. It was numerous veteran's committees, which included people Santo played with and against. Santo has never come close to the needed support until this committee was created this year.

Most former players I have talked to do believe that a veteran's committee should replace the writers as a better way of judging whether someone should be in the Hall of Fame. If that were the case, Harold Baines, if not in the Hall of Fame already, would be getting strong support. In Santo's case, his support is probably stronger from people who never saw him play.

g0g0
12-07-2011, 08:58 AM
Brooks Robinson is too classy to say anything else. That's one of the reasons he got in the Hall of Fame so quickly.

It wasn't just the writers who snubbed Santo. It was numerous veteran's committees, which included people Santo played with and against. Santo has never come close to the needed support until this committee was created this year.

Most former players I have talked to do believe that a veteran's committee should replace the writers as a better way of judging whether someone should be in the Hall of Fame. If that were the case, Harold Baines, if not in the Hall of Fame already, would be getting strong support. In Santo's case, his support is probably stronger from people who never saw him play.

Seems like we have another 'BCS' issue on our hands as fans of the sport. Either way, the one person who could garner any sort of benefit from this has passed on. The statues, press, recognition, (another patch next year?), etc. are all inconsequential.

TDog
12-07-2011, 01:08 PM
Seems like we have another 'BCS' issue on our hands as fans of the sport. Either way, the one person who could garner any sort of benefit from this has passed on. The statues, press, recognition, (another patch next year?), etc. are all inconsequential.

I'm not familiar with the BCS shorthand, so I don't understantd your point. What I know is that if people want to suddenly elevate Ron Santo to Hall of Fame status in death, which he wan't in life, it makes people feel good about the Cubs or about the person and ballplayer they wanted to believe Ron Santo was.

It isn't so much about honoring Santo -- when he was alive there was scant support from veteran's committees to put him in the Hall of Fame -- as reinventing history to honor the Cubs. And I can see where that would annoy people.

white sox bill
12-07-2011, 04:13 PM
I've softened up on Ronnie Wo Wo, actually I'm happy for his family. Hell it really doesn't matter if the cubs have another player in the now diluted hall. It sure can't top what we did in 2005.

In the scheme of life its a non-factor IMO

SephClone89
12-07-2011, 05:18 PM
I've softened up on Ronnie Wo Wo, actually I'm happy for his family. Hell it really doesn't matter if the cubs have another player in the now diluted hall. It sure can't top what we did in 2005.

In the scheme of life its a non-factor IMO

This is a common mistake, but Ron Santo and Ronnie Woo Woo are not the same person.

DumpJerry
12-07-2011, 05:37 PM
This is a common mistake, but Ron Santo and Ronnie Woo Woo are not the same person.
Have they ever been seen together? :thinking:

GoGoCrede
12-07-2011, 05:40 PM
Have they ever been seen together? :thinking:

:rolling: :rolling:

SOX ADDICT '73
12-07-2011, 05:53 PM
WFAN says Kiner was the only person who did not vote for Santo as he didn't like some of the things he said about the 69 Mets (Kiner was their broadcaster then)
I don't believe Santo belongs in the HOF either, but if this truly was Kiner's only reason, he needs to have his voting privileges revoked.

g0g0
12-07-2011, 06:15 PM
I'm not familiar with the BCS shorthand, so I don't understantd your point. What I know is that if people want to suddenly elevate Ron Santo to Hall of Fame status in death, which he wan't in life, it makes people feel good about the Cubs or about the person and ballplayer they wanted to believe Ron Santo was.

It isn't so much about honoring Santo -- when he was alive there was scant support from veteran's committees to put him in the Hall of Fame -- as reinventing history to honor the Cubs. And I can see where that would annoy people.

I meant the BCS as in the rankings for college football. :tongue:

I don't think you can say there was scant support. He ended up with 43% at the end of his run:

1980 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1980.shtml) BBWAA ( 3.9%)
1985 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1985.shtml) BBWAA (13.4%)
1986 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1986.shtml) BBWAA (15.1%)
1987 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1987.shtml) BBWAA (18.9%)
1988 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1988.shtml) BBWAA (25.3%)
1989 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1989.shtml) BBWAA (16.8%)
1990 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1990.shtml) BBWAA (21.6%)
1991 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1991.shtml) BBWAA (26.2%)
1992 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1992.shtml) BBWAA (31.6%)
1993 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1993.shtml) BBWAA (36.6%)
1994 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1994.shtml) BBWAA (32.9%)
1995 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1995.shtml) BBWAA (30.2%)
1996 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1996.shtml) BBWAA (37.0%)
1997 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1997.shtml) BBWAA (39.3%)
1998 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1998.shtml) BBWAA (43.1%)

I've heard Dick Allen mentioned a lot (another valid candidate), but his support was much less:

1983 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1983.shtml) BBWAA ( 3.7%)
1985 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1985.shtml) BBWAA ( 7.1%)
1986 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1986.shtml) BBWAA ( 9.6%)
1987 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1987.shtml) BBWAA (13.3%)
1988 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1988.shtml) BBWAA (12.2%)
1989 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1989.shtml) BBWAA ( 7.8%)
1990 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1990.shtml) BBWAA (13.1%)
1991 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1991.shtml) BBWAA (13.3%)
1992 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1992.shtml) BBWAA (16.0%)
1993 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1993.shtml) BBWAA (16.5%)
1994 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1994.shtml) BBWAA (14.5%)
1995 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1995.shtml) BBWAA (15.7%)
1996 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1996.shtml) BBWAA (18.9%)
1997 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1997.shtml) BBWAA (16.7%)

I guess this can be argued forever either way. I wasn't a huge fan of his as a Cub's fan. But I think he deserved getting in when looking at the whole of his playing career (offense/defense/WAR/All-Star appearances, MVP nods, etc.)

TDog
12-07-2011, 08:13 PM
I meant the BCS as in the rankings for college football. :tongue:

I don't think you can say there was scant support. He ended up with 43% at the end of his run:

1980 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1980.shtml) BBWAA ( 3.9%)
1985 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1985.shtml) BBWAA (13.4%)
1986 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1986.shtml) BBWAA (15.1%)
1987 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1987.shtml) BBWAA (18.9%)
1988 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1988.shtml) BBWAA (25.3%)
1989 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1989.shtml) BBWAA (16.8%)
1990 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1990.shtml) BBWAA (21.6%)
1991 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1991.shtml) BBWAA (26.2%)
1992 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1992.shtml) BBWAA (31.6%)
1993 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1993.shtml) BBWAA (36.6%)
1994 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1994.shtml) BBWAA (32.9%)
1995 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1995.shtml) BBWAA (30.2%)
1996 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1996.shtml) BBWAA (37.0%)
1997 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1997.shtml) BBWAA (39.3%)
1998 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1998.shtml) BBWAA (43.1%)

I've heard Dick Allen mentioned a lot (another valid candidate), but his support was much less:

1983 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1983.shtml) BBWAA ( 3.7%)
1985 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1985.shtml) BBWAA ( 7.1%)
1986 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1986.shtml) BBWAA ( 9.6%)
1987 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1987.shtml) BBWAA (13.3%)
1988 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1988.shtml) BBWAA (12.2%)
1989 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1989.shtml) BBWAA ( 7.8%)
1990 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1990.shtml) BBWAA (13.1%)
1991 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1991.shtml) BBWAA (13.3%)
1992 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1992.shtml) BBWAA (16.0%)
1993 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1993.shtml) BBWAA (16.5%)
1994 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1994.shtml) BBWAA (14.5%)
1995 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1995.shtml) BBWAA (15.7%)
1996 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1996.shtml) BBWAA (18.9%)
1997 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_1997.shtml) BBWAA (16.7%)

I guess this can be argued forever either way. I wasn't a huge fan of his as a Cub's fan. But I think he deserved getting in when looking at the whole of his playing career (offense/defense/WAR/All-Star appearances, MVP nods, etc.)

Getting less than 50 percent in your last year of eligibility is scant support. A Hall of Fame voter can vote for up to 10 players and a player needs to be on 75 percent of the ballots to be elected. No one ever writes in 10, at least not during my lifetime. Some people turn in blank ballots. Only in his last two years of eligibility did a bit more than half the necessary voters, knowing these were his last two years of eligibility put Santo on the ballot. Under current rules, Santo would have been dropped from the ballot after his first year of eligility. He never got support from a majority, but as he whined louder about not getting the Hall-of-Fame respect he believed he deserved, more writers included him on their ballots.

I don't believe, never have believed, that Santo's playing career was Hall-of-Fame worthy. I have never believed, like the Cubs fans who used to boo him when he played in Wrigley Field, that he was classy enough to give him extra consideration as being one of the special people of the game.

And I never believed Dick Allen belonged in the Hall of Fame despite having been better on the field than Santo (although they tied for the NL lead in triples in 1964).

white sox bill
12-08-2011, 07:13 AM
This is a common mistake, but Ron Santo and Ronnie Woo Woo are not the same person.
Oh I know I just like that name or should I say label? But they do look alike aren't they distant relatives??

TommyJohn
12-20-2011, 12:02 AM
You know, I don't mean to revive this thread, but I wanted to post something and didn't want to start a new thread. It concerns something I wrote in my blog about Ron Santo and his attitude towards the White Sox organization. Well, the team when he was a player anyway. I just feel it is worth posting here. Maybe not.


Funny, in that Santo trashed the White Sox organization in his book For Love of Ivy. He wrote, amongst other things "We never cared what those guys were doing on the other side of town." Quite obviously, Ronnie was pandering to his audience. It breaks my heart, you understand, because I'm SURE Gary Peters, Tommy John, Joe Horlen, Pete Ward and all of THOSE guys on the other side of town had their eyes just glued to the paper every morning to see how the gods up north were doing. After all, they didn't have little things like pennant races or the New York Yankees to worry about. And besides, doesn't everybody love the Cubs?

Thome25
12-20-2011, 09:13 AM
The MLB HOF is now a joke. first Jim Rice and now the pity-induction of Ron Santo. If those bums are in then Harold Baines deserves to be inducted too.

Who's next? Mark Grace? Chili Davis? Robin Ventura?(That is NOT a slight on Robin because I love him.) Juan Gonzalez? Mo Vaughn?

Pathetic.

white sox bill
12-20-2011, 09:20 AM
The MLB HOF is now a joke. first Jim Rice and now the pity-induction of Ron Santo. If those bums are in then Harold Baines deserves to be inducted too.

Who's next? Mark Grace? Chili Davis? Robin Ventura?(That is NOT a slight on Robin because I love him.) Juan Gonzalez? Mo Vaughn?

Pathetic.

Agreed, its now the Hall of the very good. Seems like everything is diluted down these days not just sports related things.

But then I have much bigger fish to fry so in the scheme of life (at least my life), this is pretty minuscule.