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DirtySox
12-03-2011, 04:16 PM
Winter meetings start on Monday in Dallas. (Dec 5th - 8th) Thus far we are led to believe that the White Sox will be quite active with many significant players potentially on the trading block.

In years past there were multiple threads created for each little rumor or whisper that was put out there, and it became a pain to keep track of everything. This year with mod approval, this thread will be used to consolidate everything. Please post twitter quotes, links, news articles, speculation, and rumors in this single thread unless it assuredly warrants it's own topic. Mods feel free to split off certain topics as well.

I was told to post this thread in the Clubhouse by Voodoo, but it might be moved in the future.

Let the fun begin.

DirtySox
12-03-2011, 04:18 PM
For some early speculation:


scotgregor Scot Gregor
Interesting...#WhiteSox GM Kenny Williams cancels this afternoon's scheduled conference call with media. Trade coming?
4 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply


ChiTribRogers Phil Rogers
#Whitesox cancelled KW pre-meetings call today. Gentlemen, start your theories.
3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply


cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Sox announce that KW cancelled his 2 p.m. presser today. They did apologize for any inconvenience. Wonder if KW is working a deal.....
4 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

veeter
12-04-2011, 09:24 AM
This off season feels just like the post 2007 one. The Sox are coming off a terrible season and changes are coming. Kenny got Carlos in those winter meetings. They had just re-signed Buehrle, and the Sox went on to win the Central in '08. Now those two may be out the door. I just like the fresh start a crappy season can bring. Here's to Kenny being on his game this week and getting the Sox back on top in 2012.

Tragg
12-04-2011, 10:31 AM
I'm ready for the winter meetings. This has been the slowest, most boring fall-offseason ever.

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 10:44 AM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Just heard the latest on the Buehrle front from a source. Three teams have the money and the three years on the table.
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
As I reported Thursday, Buehrle wants a no-trade, and that is still yet to be met. Two of the teams are close to changing that stance.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
The Sox are not one of the teams, but Buehrle will talk with them before his name goes on the dotted line.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Both teams that have gotten serious are National League teams.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Yes it's Cowley, so grain of salt etc.

EMachine10
12-04-2011, 11:09 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/three-teams-made-three-year-offers-to-buehrle.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Pretty much the same as posted above, just in paragraph form.

LITTLE NELL
12-04-2011, 11:18 AM
My gut feeling is that JR will match any offer and MB stays in Southside pinstipes.

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 11:20 AM
Which Way White Sox? (http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/which_way_white_sox/8503120)

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 11:22 AM
My gut feeling is that JR will match any offer and MB stays in Southside pinstipes.

Agreed. Though I don't really think he's a good fit for the state of this current club.

Daver
12-04-2011, 11:33 AM
Agreed. Though I don't really think he's a good fit for the state of this current club.

Yeah, this team has no use for a workhorse lefty starter.

sox1970
12-04-2011, 11:37 AM
Yeah, this team has no use for a workhorse lefty starter.

At 14 mil? For 3 years? When you're still going to be bad?

And are Danks and Floyd being replaced by Stewart and Axelrod to do it?

A lot more factors than just if Buehrle can keep doing what he's doing for a couple more years.

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 11:40 AM
Yeah, this team has no use for a workhorse lefty starter.

The thing is, the team is going to need plenty more than that. If Kenny is "going for it" again, then great. But if the Sox are truly going to rebuild/retool the next few years his signing isn't really necessary. Let the fringy minor league arms take their lumps, as it largely won't matter. I just see him as an unnecessary luxury in such a scenario.

doublem23
12-04-2011, 11:51 AM
Let the fringy minor league arms take their lumps, as it largely won't matter. I just see him as an unnecessary luxury in such a scenario.

Helps keeps some fans happy. If we're going to lose, may as well lose with popular players. It's not like we're the Braves and we have a stable of SP prospects ready to step up and take his place.

Daver
12-04-2011, 11:52 AM
The thing is, the team is going to need plenty more than that. If Kenny is "going for it" again, then great. But if the Sox are truly going to rebuild/retool the next few years his signing isn't really necessary. Let the fringy minor league arms take their lumps, as it largely won't matter. I just see him as an unnecessary luxury in such a scenario.

Rebuild with what?

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 11:55 AM
Helps keeps some fans happy. If we're going to lose, may as well lose with popular players. It's not like we're the Braves and we have a stable of SP prospects ready to step up and take his place.

Good point. I often overlook that as I'm not a person who really gets attached to players. I'd be fine with both Mark and PK leaving personally. Especially if it could expedite the rebuild/retool process.

DumpJerry
12-04-2011, 12:15 PM
Agreed. Though I don't really think he's a good fit for the state of this current club.
Why? Have they stopped purchasing uniforms in his size?

Since 90% of the rumors that we hear never become fact, I ignore the rumors. The rumors are usually created by agents trying to squeeze better offers from interested teams.

I also love how some people are insisting that the Sox are toast next season. They aren't.

russ99
12-04-2011, 12:37 PM
I also love how some people are insisting that the Sox are toast next season. They aren't.

I take little stock on offseason predictions and the fan reaction of what the team is doing at the winter meetings - if it were on the mark, we would have won the World Series this year. :smile:

Let's see what Kenny can do. If he had the resources, I'm sure Kenny would be very active, but his hands are tied by Jerry cutting payroll.

So let's see what happens, who leaves and who we get back. We may be surprised how things shake out on the field.

central44
12-04-2011, 12:44 PM
I also love how some people are insisting that the Sox are toast next season. They aren't.



Thank you. A lot can still happen, and really, if Dunn and Rios have even mediocre years, the team can potentially be a lot better without many changes.

Daver
12-04-2011, 12:51 PM
I'm sure Kenny would be very active, but his hands are tied by Jerry cutting payroll.


When was it announced that the payroll is being cut?

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 01:07 PM
SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
buehrle a very popular free agent w/ 14 teams in mix. minn, az among surprise entrants, but $14M salary target steep for them
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

KMcMahon817
12-04-2011, 01:53 PM
When was it announced that the payroll is being cut?

I have always found it comical that you moderate a message board, but take shots at people for their opinions/comments. That's the whole point of a message board.

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 01:58 PM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Sources: #Rangers, #Nationals, #Marlins most aggressive on Buehrle. Nats prefer shorter deal on Buehrle to longer one with Wilson. #MLB
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Daver
12-04-2011, 01:58 PM
I have always found it comical that you moderate a message board, but take shots at people for their opinions/comments. That's the whole point of a message board.

You extrapolated that out of a mere question?

Marqhead
12-04-2011, 01:59 PM
You extrapolated that out of a mere question?

I've extrapolated that out of 4 years of membership.

Tragg
12-04-2011, 02:56 PM
We have to trade Danks anyway; we won't re-sign him and we need the good talent that he'll bring. By signing MB, we stabilize our pitching staff tremendously. He's not a lock down starter, no - we don't have one, unless Peavy suddenly regenerates - but he's consistent. We don't need to slip into the sub 75-win morass. I don't like mediocre seasons, but what people who say "rebuild" miss is that when you drive your team down to sub 75 wins, revenues evaporate making rebuilding much more difficult: see Toronto and Cleveland which were big budget teams, not to mention small budget Pitt and KC.

DumpJerry
12-04-2011, 03:06 PM
I take little stock on offseason predictions and the fan reaction of what the team is doing at the winter meetings - if it were on the mark, we would have won the World Series this year. :smile:

Let's see what Kenny can do. If he had the resources, I'm sure Kenny would be very active, but his hands are tied by Jerry cutting payroll.

So let's see what happens, who leaves and who we get back. We may be surprised how things shake out on the field.
Sox fans have always been pessimistic, sometimes contrary to what reality is showing them. I think part of it is in reaction to our neighbors who think their blue team is one exorcised curse away from a trip to the World Series every year no matter what.

To those of you who keep posting how bad the Sox will be next year (despite having a more complete rotation, even without Burls, than anyone else in the AL Central as I write this), I ask what have the other teams done to make themselves much better than last year? Not much. Given the paucity of this year's free agent market, it will be difficult for a team to really jump ahead of the pack with some big free agent signings.

Brian26
12-04-2011, 03:08 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/three-teams-made-three-year-offers-to-buehrle.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Pretty much the same as posted above, just in paragraph form.

Of course, because all mlbtr does is copy other sources.

Lip Man 1
12-04-2011, 03:13 PM
Mark Gonzales just reported today in his story the Sox payroll is expected to be in the 100 million dollar range this year. He also wrote that it would be even less but the deals given to Dunn and Rios make them untradable for what its worth.

That would be a reduction of about 25 million.

Lip

DSpivack
12-04-2011, 03:25 PM
Of course, because all mlbtr does is copy other sources.

Yes, as a news aggregator, that's what they do.

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 03:25 PM
Yes, as a news aggregator, that's what they do.

Right. They give credit and links to all the original sources as well. I have no problem with what they do.

Foulke You
12-04-2011, 04:00 PM
I also love how some people are insisting that the Sox are toast next season. They aren't.
Agreed. It's funny how almost the exact same negative things were being said here on WSI after the 2007 season concluded. People proclaimed with 100% certainty that "we won't contend, our farm system is terrible, it's a mistake to bring back high priced veterans, we'll be lucky to finish in 4th place, etc." and then the team went out and won the division in 2008. I'm not saying the Sox are a lock to win next year and they certainly have a host of issues, but they shouldn't be written off from contending as many here have done. Nobody in the AL Central figures to be running away with it next year.

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 07:36 PM
JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Marlins have chance for trifecta if they'll include a no trade for Buehrle...Reyes, Bell and Buehrle would def bring credibility to Marlins
5 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 08:39 PM
SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
for danks, #whitesox seek banuelos AD montero from #yankees. cant blame 'em for trying. not serious yet, obvs.
52 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

palehozenychicty
12-04-2011, 09:21 PM
SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
for danks, #whitesox seek banuelos AD montero from #yankees. cant blame 'em for trying. not serious yet, obvs.
52 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

This is exactly the kind of reach necessary. I'd be content with this trade.

DirtySox
12-04-2011, 09:25 PM
This is exactly the kind of reach necessary. I'd be content with this trade.

Anyone would, but it's completely absurdly unrealistic. That's two Top 15 prospects in all of baseball. The Sox would love to get even one of them.

SephClone89
12-04-2011, 09:31 PM
This is exactly the kind of reach necessary. I'd be content with this trade.

Content? You'd be CONTENT?!

StillMissOzzie
12-04-2011, 09:46 PM
Yeah, this team has no use for a workhorse lefty starter.

It's not that the Sox couldn't use a workhorse lefty starter, but who will have to hit the bricks to afford to keep him? And would Buehrle want to be back on THAT version of the Sox?

SMO
:?::gulp:

guillensdisciple
12-05-2011, 09:54 AM
Danks seems like the type of pitcher that will always be one off from being really really good and will always just be above average. If you can get a haul like the one Heyman spoke of than you run with it as fast as possible. Not many would offer that for just 14 to 15 wins a season. Who knows where his numbers go in Yankee stadium though I shouldn't really emphasize that considering cellular is a hitters dream too.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 12:00 PM
Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
#Whitesox not messing round, talking Danks, Floyd, but asking big returns right now in seller's market for SP.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

KMcMahon817
12-05-2011, 12:02 PM
Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
#Whitesox not messing round, talking Danks, Floyd, but asking big returns right now in seller's market for SP.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Go Kenny! Don't back down! Ransom or nothing.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 12:13 PM
SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
#yankees wouldn't give up either banuelos or montero for danks. Chisox requested both. Yanks do like danks tho.
51 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

sox1970
12-05-2011, 12:18 PM
SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
#yankees wouldn't give up either banuelos or montero for danks. Chisox requested both. Yanks do like danks tho.
51 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Can't blame the Sox for asking. Can't blame the Yankees for saying no.

My guess is come Thursday morning, Danks is still on the Sox. Teams aren't going to unload a bunch for one year of Danks.

JB98
12-05-2011, 12:39 PM
Go Kenny! Don't back down! Ransom or nothing.

Agreed. None of this trading guys for mid-level prospects crap. Either teams give us talent in return or we don't trade.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 12:51 PM
Agreed. None of this trading guys for mid-level prospects crap. Either teams give us talent in return or we don't trade.

I don't think there's any chance Danks is held onto. He will easily fetch something good though. Floyd will probably be retained unless Kenny is overwhelmed.

doublem23
12-05-2011, 12:53 PM
I don't think there's any chance Danks is held onto. He will easily fetch something good though. Floyd will probably be retained unless Kenny is overwhelmed.

Yeah but the question is when do you pull the trigger? If teams are reluctant to trade some of their better prospects, as they usually are, isn't the smarter play to hold Danks for now and see if someone will overpay for him at the trade deadline?

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 12:55 PM
Yeah but the question is when do you pull the trigger? If teams are reluctant to trade some of their better prospects, as they usually are, isn't the smarter play to hold Danks for now and see if someone will overpay for him at the trade deadline?

Good question. Some risk versus reward there obviously. It also depends if Kenny is truly hoping to trade these players in order to sign MB. (Along with receiving young talent.)

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 12:58 PM
Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
At present #Whitesox askign #Yankees for Banuelos on Danks. Yanks won't do that for walk-yr, No. 2-3 starter. But Chi does like (cont)
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
Yankee system, so if price falls, Yanks would be in play.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


I will be pissed if Romine is headlining any Yankees trade.

bestkosher
12-05-2011, 01:06 PM
Yeah but the question is when do you pull the trigger? If teams are reluctant to trade some of their better prospects, as they usually are, isn't the smarter play to hold Danks for now and see if someone will overpay for him at the trade deadline?

Hard to say, if the Sox do hold on to him and get nothing decent at the trade dealine then you get nothing. If he has another down year you lose all value.

KMcMahon817
12-05-2011, 01:20 PM
Hard to say, if the Sox do hold on to him and get nothing decent at the trade dealine then you get nothing. If he has another down year you lose all value.

Disagree. You get Danks in your 2012 rotation. A rotation without Buehrle and Danks looks like: Peavy, Sale, Floyd, Humber and either Stewart or someone you get for Danks. That is guaranteed mediocrity.

If you keep Danks, the SOX have a shot at being relevant in the Central if Rios and Dunn have just an okay season. I know many hate being in between, but I would rather be in the race than at the cellar of the division. A long rebuild period does not really excite me.

It all comes down to what KW can get for Danks. If you can't get someone to overpay, I don't think he should be moved. You can always move him in June if Rios, Dunn and Gordo still suck.

bestkosher
12-05-2011, 01:24 PM
Yet if he has not garning strong value now and the Sox are doing bad to the point where they would trade him in June/July the teams would have the Sox over a barrell knowing full well that they either deal then or get nothing.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 01:28 PM
With how thin the starting pitching market is, Kenny will be able to get decent value for Danks. It's an extreme sellers market. I'll be shocked if he isn't traded this offseason.

russ99
12-05-2011, 01:29 PM
Hard to say, if the Sox do hold on to him and get nothing decent at the trade dealine then you get nothing. If he has another down year you lose all value.

There's 28 other teams besides the Yankees. Just because they won't give a top prospect, doesn't mean some other team won't.

Right now isn't exactly the best time to deal him either, that would be after the holidays and the FA market dries up and teams are desperate for a starter.

The only issue with that is the whole arbitration timetable. I'm sure the Sox would decide to trade or keep him before going down that road.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 01:59 PM
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but Kenny isn't even at the meetings yet. He will show up this evening for whatever reason.

Marqhead
12-05-2011, 02:46 PM
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but Kenny isn't even at the meetings yet. He will show up this evening for whatever reason.

Powerplay move. Fashionably late.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 02:50 PM
Powerplay move. Fashionably late.

The theory was earlier that he might be working on something, hence cancelling his conference call and now late to the meetings. Or like you suggest, giving the illusion of such.

eriqjaffe
12-05-2011, 02:54 PM
The theory was earlier that he might be working on something, hence cancelling his conference call and now late to the meetings. Or like you suggest, giving the illusion of such.Or he's on his phone at the airport. That's where the real magic happens.

cws05champ
12-05-2011, 03:12 PM
Disagree. You get Danks in your 2012 rotation. A rotation without Buehrle and Danks looks like: Peavy, Sale, Floyd, Humber and either Stewart or someone you get for Danks. That is guaranteed mediocrity.

If you keep Danks, the SOX have a shot at being relevant in the Central if Rios and Dunn have just an okay season. I know many hate being in between, but I would rather be in the race than at the cellar of the division. A long rebuild period does not really excite me.

It all comes down to what KW can get for Danks. If you can't get someone to overpay, I don't think he should be moved. You can always move him in June if Rios, Dunn and Gordo still suck.
+1

Danks doesn't lose all value if he is not traded. Typically guys will have better years in their contract years, so it's not unreasonable to think that Danks could pitch really well and bring back some really good talent at the deadline. Or at the very least we get a couple picks(1st sup, 2-3rd) in the next draft after getting a whole good year out of him.

If teams aren't willing to deal very good talent back, then hold out. What would Danks be commanding on the open market right now? 9-12M per for 4-5 years? He's worth some talent back.

Chez
12-05-2011, 03:15 PM
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but Kenny isn't even at the meetings yet. He will show up this evening for whatever reason.

Still trying to rid his leather jacket of the post break-in "bum-smell."

cws05champ
12-05-2011, 03:26 PM
Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but Kenny isn't even at the meetings yet. He will show up this evening for whatever reason.

He got held up at the airport by over zealous WSI'ers listening to his trade proposals.

doublem23
12-05-2011, 03:34 PM
Hard to say, if the Sox do hold on to him and get nothing decent at the trade dealine then you get nothing. If he has another down year you lose all value.

Of course that is a great point, but it's the risk you have to guage. We're still are talking about a 27-year-old left handed starter who has given you an average of 195 IP the last 4 seasons and has had Top 10 WAR for Pitchers 3 of the last 4 seasons. I'd be willing to risk he'll have a bounce back year in 2012 instead of panic and sell low right now.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-05-2011, 03:35 PM
He got held up at the airport by over zealous WSI'ers listening to his trade proposals.

Still trying to rid his leather jacket of the post break-in "bum-smell."

Or he's on his phone at the airport. That's where the real magic happens.

Well done, everyone.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 05:48 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Most interesting thing I heard today is there is a Sox vet who would like to be traded if KW starts trading proven players for potential.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Peavy I'd wager.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2011, 05:59 PM
I'm guessing Konerko.

Lip

kravdog
12-05-2011, 06:01 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Most interesting thing I heard today is there is a Sox vet who would like to be traded if KW starts trading proven players for potential.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Peavy I'd wager.

I'll drive him to the airport.

If Peavy wants to throw in some of that money that he didn't earn over the past couple of years from his personal account to make a trade happen, Im all for it.

At this point, no reason for the Sox to eat the kind of money it would take to get rid of him.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 06:03 PM
I'll drive him to the airport.

If Peavy wants to throw in some of that money that he didn't earn over the past couple of years from his personal account to make a trade happen, Im all for it.

At this point, no reason for the Sox to eat the kind of money it would take to get rid of him.

Indeed.

He stated that he'd rather not be around for a rebuild earlier this year I believe.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 06:03 PM
I'm guessing Konerko.

Lip

In Kenny's latest interview, he stated the opposite. PK wants to and is willing to stay.

KMcMahon817
12-05-2011, 06:34 PM
If Peavy wants to get traded, he can pound sand. Stay healthy and earn your contract before you make commands. If KW ends up selling off proven talent and Peavy indeed did ask for a trade in this scenario, I hope KW doesn't even explore the option.

asindc
12-05-2011, 06:56 PM
Indeed.

He stated that he'd rather not be around for a rebuild earlier this year I believe.

Other than Dunn, the last veteran on the Sox that should be demanding a trade from a rebuilding team is Peavy. Other than Dunn, Peavy is the guy most responsible for creating the climate in which rebuilding might be seriously considered. If he wants to be traded, he can go **** himself.

DSpivack
12-05-2011, 07:42 PM
Other than Dunn, the last veteran on the Sox that should be demanding a trade from a rebuilding team is Peavy. Other than Dunn, Peavy is the guy most responsible for creating the climate in which rebuilding might be seriously considered. If he wants to be traded, he can go **** himself.

If the Sox can find a team willing to take on his salary, though, I would be very quick to move him, as I think it would be in the best interests of the team. He has no ingratiated himself here, but his salary is a real hindrance on the White Sox.

I just don't know why any team would want to trade for him at this point. Same goes for Adam Dunn. Same goes for Alex Rios.

palehozenychicty
12-05-2011, 07:45 PM
If the Sox can find a team willing to take on his salary, though, I would be very quick to move him, as I think it would be in the best interests of the team. He has no ingratiated himself here, but his salary is a real hindrance on the White Sox.

I just don't know why any team would want to trade for him at this point. Same goes for Adam Dunn. Same goes for Alex Rios.

Indeed. But stranger transactions have happened in sports.

JohnTucker0814
12-05-2011, 08:12 PM
I'll drive him to the airport.

If Peavy wants to throw in some of that money that he didn't earn over the past couple of years from his personal account to make a trade happen, Im all for it.

At this point, no reason for the Sox to eat the kind of money it would take to get rid of him.

I'm guessing the Sox had insurance on Peavy, so really, they weren't "out" all of the money for his contract while he was injured.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 08:22 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
KW is in the building.
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

asindc
12-05-2011, 08:24 PM
If the Sox can find a team willing to take on his salary, though, I would be very quick to move him, as I think it would be in the best interests of the team. He has no ingratiated himself here, but his salary is a real hindrance on the White Sox.

I just don't know why any team would want to trade for him at this point. Same goes for Adam Dunn. Same goes for Alex Rios.

I agree, I just think that if there is any trade talk about Peavy, it should be coming from the team, not Peavy.

DSpivack
12-05-2011, 08:24 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
KW is in the building.
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

I'm guessing Cowley and KW had a lengthy conversation followed by a hug. :wink:

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 08:31 PM
Supposedly Kenny has a meeting with the Reds tonight. I'd imagine Alonso will be discussed, just as Phil Rogers and others mentioned last week.

DSpivack
12-05-2011, 08:35 PM
Supposedly Kenny has a meeting with the Reds tonight. I'd imagine Alonso will be discussed, just as Phil Rogers and others mentioned last week.

I'm thinking Gavin here moreso than Danks or anyone else.

Where would Alonso play, though? I thought he was more of a 1B/DH than an OF.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 08:38 PM
I'm thinking Gavin here moreso than Danks or anyone else.

Supposedly the Sox were trying to decide if he could play LF or not. The overwhelming consensus in the scouting community is that he's brutal. Cinci has been trying to fit him around Votto unsuccessfully, even considering C and 3B. If he was capable enough, he'd be in LF with the Reds and not on the trading block. It would be an adventure with him in LF and Dayan in RF I'd imagine.

KMcMahon817
12-05-2011, 08:42 PM
Supposedly the Sox were trying to decide if he could play LF or not. The overwhelming consensus in the scouting community is that he's brutal. Cinci has been trying to fit him around Votto unsuccessfully, even considering C and 3B. If he was capable enough, he'd be in LF with the Reds and not on the trading block. It would be an adventure with him in LF and Dayan in RF I'd imagine.

The only way Alonso makes any sense is if KW has a trade partner for Konerko. There is no way the SOX will sport an outfield with Viciedo and Alonso. Too many 1B/DH/****y outfielder types on this team to be looking for another. Not to mention that De Aza has earned a chance at a starting job out of ST.

DirtySox
12-05-2011, 08:47 PM
The only way Alonso makes any sense is if KW has a trade partner for Konerko. There is no way the SOX will sport an outfield with Viciedo and Alonso. Too many 1B/DH/****y outfielder types on this team to be looking for another. Not to mention that De Aza has earned a chance at a starting job out of ST.

It doesn't make much sense, but we can all point to plenty of defensively challenged outfielders in recent years that Kenny and Ozzie have thrown out there.

It's also worth noting that the Sox were very high on Alonso and were going to draft him in the 2008 draft, but Beckham ended up falling to them. Personally, I hope they are talking Grandal. Once again, he was going to be drafted by the Sox in 2010 but he was popped by Cinci one pick before them. Couple that with Mesoraco being a premier catching prospect who is MLB ready, and Yasmani might be expendable. He could be tough to pry loose though.

KMcMahon817
12-05-2011, 09:04 PM
It doesn't make much sense, but we can all point to plenty of defensively challenged outfielders in recent years that Kenny and Ozzie have thrown out there.

It's also worth noting that the Sox were very high on Alonso and were going to draft him in the 2008 draft, but Beckham ended up falling to them. Personally, I hope they are talking Grandal. Once again, he was going to be drafted by the Sox in 2010 but he was popped by Cinci one pick before them. Couple that with Mesoraco being a premier catching prospect who is MLB ready, and Yasmani might be expendable. He could be tough to pry loose though.

I agree, Grandal would be great. He also makes much more sense if the SOX decide that they are going to fully rebuild.

I like Alonso, don't get me wrong. The dude is going to mash, but he doesn't make alot of sense unless the SOX have a suitor for Paulie.

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 12:09 AM
It doesn't make much sense, but we can all point to plenty of defensively challenged outfielders in recent years that Kenny and Ozzie have thrown out there.

It's also worth noting that the Sox were very high on Alonso and were going to draft him in the 2008 draft, but Beckham ended up falling to them. Personally, I hope they are talking Grandal. Once again, he was going to be drafted by the Sox in 2010 but he was popped by Cinci one pick before them. Couple that with Mesoraco being a premier catching prospect who is MLB ready, and Yasmani might be expendable. He could be tough to pry loose though.

I saw Alonso in left when the Reds played the Cubs this year and he was by far the worst outfielder I have ever seen. He misplayed about five balls in left field that led to seven runs scoring. Of course Kenny has never been big on defense so I wouldn't be shocked to see Alonso in left and Vicideo in right.

doublem23
12-06-2011, 12:23 AM
Of course Kenny has never been big on defense so I wouldn't be shocked to see Alonso in left and Vicideo in right.

Since when? We have one of the best defensive infields in the league.

Mohoney
12-06-2011, 02:49 AM
Not to mention that De Aza has earned a chance at a starting job out of ST.

If Alejandro De Aza is a starting outfielder next season, then I'm punting 2012 away, ignoring the team, and looking forward to 2013.

Alejandro De Aza sucks out loud.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-06-2011, 04:44 AM
If Alejandro De Aza is a starting outfielder next season, then I'm punting 2012 away, ignoring the team, and looking forward to 2013.

Alejandro De Aza sucks out loud.

If De Aza sucks, then what is your description of Alex Rios?

De Aza's earned the chance to compete for the starting spot. I don't know what team you were watching last season, but De Aza was actually pretty good in his limited time here, when Ozzie finally realized that Rios is hot garbage (yet would still play him 5-6 days a week regardless). De Aza hustled, played some good defense, had good speed, and...get this, actually was HITTING.

He's not going to be an All-Star by any means, but he would be an adequate replacement for Pierre (all things considered, he may actually be an upgrade) in left if he holds true to his numbers this year.

russ99
12-06-2011, 08:16 AM
If De Aza sucks, then what is your description of Alex Rios?

De Aza's earned the chance to compete for the starting spot. I don't know what team you were watching last season, but De Aza was actually pretty good in his limited time here, when Ozzie finally realized that Rios is hot garbage (yet would still play him 5-6 days a week regardless). De Aza hustled, played some good defense, had good speed, and...get this, actually was HITTING.

He's not going to be an All-Star by any means, but he would be an adequate replacement for Pierre (all things considered, he may actually be an upgrade) in left if he holds true to his numbers this year.

De Aza's been a career minor leaguer except for half of last year and that brief stint with the Marlins before he got hurt.

I'm encouraged by his numbers last year, but not expecting that over a full season. Defensively, he should be in center, especially if Quentin is moved, with Rios going to right where he'd be above average.

Rios is Rios. A new manager and hitting coach might have a chance to reach him where others haven't. He did give us a good season in 2010, so it's at least possible that he could turn things around.

But with 3 more years of $12.5 -$13M paydays, he's got little incentive to work hard, other than for pride. Sadly, I wonder if the best thing for Rios is if the Sox eventually release him, where he has to actually work for his next contract. I really wish MLB had that "amnesty" thing that the NBA has right now...

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 10:08 AM
If Alejandro De Aza is a starting outfielder next season, then I'm punting 2012 away, ignoring the team, and looking forward to 2013.

Alejandro De Aza sucks out loud.

Well, you must have been one of those fans that stopped watching the SOX in July. De Aza was our best hitter after he was called up from Charlotte. I doubt he will hit .330 over 600+ at bats, but I wouldn't be shocked to see him hit .290/12/60 out of the lead-off spot. He really hustles, and this team currently has no traditional lead-off hitter other than De Aza, and lacks someone with great speed. I don't think that is the only reason he should get a starting job if he doesn't fall flat on his face in ST...he has done everything in his power to earn a chance. Again, if you disagree, you clearly watched only a few games after July....to each their own.

Zisk77
12-06-2011, 11:47 AM
If Alejandro De Aza is a starting outfielder next season, then I'm punting 2012 away, ignoring the team, and looking forward to 2013.

Alejandro De Aza sucks out loud.

Look forward to reading your posts in 2013.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:06 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
KW to address us soon. Find out why.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

GoGoCrede
12-06-2011, 12:07 PM
If Alejandro De Aza is a starting outfielder next season, then I'm punting 2012 away, ignoring the team, and looking forward to 2013.

Alejandro De Aza sucks out loud.

Slightly dramatic to write off an entire team/season because of one player.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-06-2011, 12:11 PM
De Aza's been a career minor leaguer except for half of last year and that brief stint with the Marlins before he got hurt.

I'm encouraged by his numbers last year, but not expecting that over a full season. Defensively, he should be in center, especially if Quentin is moved, with Rios going to right where he'd be above average.

Rios is Rios. A new manager and hitting coach might have a chance to reach him where others haven't. He did give us a good season in 2010, so it's at least possible that he could turn things around.

But with 3 more years of $12.5 -$13M paydays, he's got little incentive to work hard, other than for pride. Sadly, I wonder if the best thing for Rios is if the Sox eventually release him, where he has to actually work for his next contract. I really wish MLB had that "amnesty" thing that the NBA has right now...

Who's to say that he didn't finally put it together this season? He could be a late bloomer. I'm not saying that's why he did well this season, but to say he doesn't deserve a chance to prove it is silly. I know you didn't say that, so it wasn't directed towards you in particular.

I pretty much agree with everything else in your post, though. I can only hope that the new coaches can get through to Rios, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:12 PM
MDGonzales Mark Gonzales
KW "this is the start of a rebuilding." !!!
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 12:24 PM
CST_soxvan Daryl Van Schouwen
Sox likely not done dealing
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 12:27 PM
Since when? We have one of the best defensive infields in the league.

Honestly if you look at the teams prior to Ozzie coming here under the Kenny area defense has always taken a back seat to offense. We had Carl Everett in center for awhile with Jose Valentine at short. The two most important defensive positions on the field were filled by these two guys. Some of that blame can maybe go on Manuel but if you recall it was after Ozzie was hired that Kenny was saying "Well we decided to build around pitching and defense," which makes me wonder what the hell Kenny was building around before.

Brian26
12-06-2011, 12:39 PM
Honestly if you look at the teams prior to Ozzie coming here under the Kenny area defense has always taken a back seat to offense. We had Carl Everett in center for awhile with Jose Valentine at short. The two most important defensive positions on the field were filled by these two guys. Some of that blame can maybe go on Manuel but if you recall it was after Ozzie was hired that Kenny was saying "Well we decided to build around pitching and defense," which makes me wonder what the hell Kenny was building around before.

Valentin was a better SS than you're giving him credit for, and Carl, at the time, was a huge upgrade offensively over Rowand and could still play a decent CF in a small park. Everett played CF for three months in 2003. Let's not get carried away.

Hitmen77
12-06-2011, 12:53 PM
MDGonzales Mark Gonzales
KW "this is the start of a rebuilding." !!!
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Yaayy!!!!!!!!

I guess we'll see how many years we'll be in "rebuilding" mode. Let's see, no talent in the farm system, declining attendance, Dunn & Rios locked up for 3 more years. Yuck.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 01:13 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Matt Thornton to Atlanta is picking up steam. Keep an eye on it.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 02:12 PM
cst_Cowley cst_Cowley
Matt Thornton to Atlanta is picking up steam. Keep an eye on it.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

This trade would make a lot of sense, Thornton is getting paid closer money and is not a closer. That would free up some money.

CHISOXFAN13
12-06-2011, 02:14 PM
This trade would make a lot of sense, Thornton is getting paid closer money and is not a closer. That would free up some money.

That and Atlanta's system is stacked.

Fingers crossed on this one.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 02:15 PM
This trade would make a lot of sense, Thornton is getting paid closer money and is not a closer. That would free up some money.

It would make sense to trade Thornton, but not to the Braves. That bullpen is stacked as is...I don't see them trading for Thornton alone. Now Quentin and Thornton together makes much more sense for the Braves.

Noneck
12-06-2011, 02:17 PM
This trade would make a lot of sense, Thornton is getting paid closer money and is not a closer. That would free up some money.

Seeing what the Sox got for their much younger, cheaper closer, what can be expected to be gotten in return for a old, heavy salaried, on decline setup guy? Not much I think, except salary relief.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 02:19 PM
It would make sense to trade Thornton, but not to the Braves. That bullpen is stacked as is...I don't see them trading for Thornton alone. Now Quentin and Thornton together makes much more sense for the Braves.

Agreed. Thornton isn't a huge need for Atlanta. If they could somehow acquire Minor or Beachy with Quentin packaged in it'd be great though. Not sure how realistic it is considering they weren't willing to deal any of their young arms at the trade deadline.

VMSNS
12-06-2011, 02:28 PM
David O'Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution now saying the Thornton trade is "bogus".

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/braves-white-sox-discussing-matt-thornton.html

WhiteSox5187
12-06-2011, 02:29 PM
It would make sense to trade Thornton, but not to the Braves. That bullpen is stacked as is...I don't see them trading for Thornton alone. Now Quentin and Thornton together makes much more sense for the Braves.

Didn't their bullpen get gassed at the end of the year and that's why they missed the playoffs? If you could get a good haul with a package of Thornton and Quentin I would do that in a heart beat.

Boondock Saint
12-06-2011, 02:51 PM
Seeing what the Sox got for their much younger, cheaper closer, what can be expected to be gotten in return for a old, heavy salaried, on decline setup guy? Not much I think, except salary relief.

It's amazing how quickly a guy can go from "Best lefty setup man in the game" to "a old, heavy salaried, on decline setup guy". One decent season is all it takes, I guess.

MUsoxfan
12-06-2011, 03:19 PM
David O'Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution now saying the Thornton trade is "bogus".

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/braves-white-sox-discussing-matt-thornton.html

Another Cowley rumor debunked. I wish Twitter would kick him off their service

Noneck
12-06-2011, 03:23 PM
It's amazing how quickly a guy can go from "Best lefty setup man in the game" to "a old, heavy salaried, on decline setup guy". One decent season is all it takes, I guess.

It happens all the time, father time (he is 35 now) makes one lose a couple mph on a fast ball (which is his go to pitch) and bingo you are nearing the end of the line. But dont take my word on that, just wait and see what his worth is on the market.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 05:44 PM
DKnobler DKnobler
White Sox rebuilding: If they get what they want, Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Beckham all will be gone by opening day
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

russ99
12-06-2011, 05:52 PM
It's amazing how quickly a guy can go from "Best lefty setup man in the game" to "a old, heavy salaried, on decline setup guy". One decent season is all it takes, I guess.

Matt is still a solid lefty setup man, it's the whole blowing his shot as closer last season that sours the deal a bit, and also that he's making more than a guy like J.J. Putz who had a tremendous season closing for the D-backs.

A high-payroll team who doesn't mind his salary at that role should be able to give Kenny what he wants.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 06:01 PM
I don't understand what good could possibly come out of trading Beckham. If he was moved, it would be for someone who is struggling just as much. Let's give Gordo 2012 to regain his mojo...selling low now would be idiotic. If he sucks in 2012, oh well..move on.

palehozenychicty
12-06-2011, 06:04 PM
I don't understand what good could possibly come out of trading Beckham. If he was moved, it would be for someone who is struggling just as much. Let's give Gordo 2012 to regain his mojo...selling low now would be idiotic. If he sucks in 2012, oh well..move on.

I still keep him for a couple of more years. There's not a lot of premium second basemen in the game right now. He's still young. He's not expensive and is already an excellent fielder.

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 06:10 PM
I still keep him for a couple of more years. There's not a lot of premium second basemen in the game right now. He's still young. He's not expensive and is already an excellent fielder.

I agree with you. At worst, he is a great utility man. But, I still think that he has the offensive ability to be a special player. Hopefully the new coaching staff can help him find it.

shingo10
12-06-2011, 06:19 PM
DKnobler DKnobler
White Sox rebuilding: If they get what they want, Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Beckham all will be gone by opening day
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Beckham eh? I'd imagine it would be hard to get a good return for a guy who can't come close to hitting a fastball. Although he is a very good second baseman.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 06:20 PM
Beckham eh? I'd imagine it would be hard to get a good return for a guy who can't come close to hitting a fastball. Although he is a very good second baseman.

Earlier this week it was reported that the Jays are very interested in Gordon.

guillensdisciple
12-06-2011, 06:32 PM
Beckham is not a good hitter and he won't be in this organization. I am sick of waiting for him and I think any love affair with him should disappear because he is just not good.

Domeshot17
12-06-2011, 06:37 PM
I would be fine with Gordon being dealt. He is just another first round bust. Nice guy, but he is a .700 ops dime a dozen 2b.

russ99
12-06-2011, 06:44 PM
I would be fine with Gordon being dealt. He is just another first round bust. Nice guy, but he is a .700 ops dime a dozen 2b.

He doesn't go to arb until next offseason, and considering that Walker almost got the axe for messing him up so badly, I'd prefer to see the Sox give him one more year under a new hitting coach before selling him.

BTW - Gotta laugh about Ventura's quote today about Dunn playing in the field next year - even the OF!

I got lambasted pretty badly for suggesting that last season... Some guys just aren't cut out for the DH.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 06:56 PM
Orioles are interested in Quentin, Floyd, and Danks.

Also:


scottmerkin Scott Merkin
Brad Bergesen one of the names floated by Orioles to White Sox in potential trade talks. Could include Quentin and/or Floyd
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

:puking::puking::puking:

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 06:57 PM
He doesn't go to arb until next offseason, and considering that Walker almost got the axe for messing him up so badly, I'd prefer to see the Sox give him one more year under a new hitting coach before selling him.

BTW - Gotta laugh about Ventura's quote today about Dunn playing in the field next year - even the OF!

I got lambasted pretty badly for suggesting that last season... Some guys just aren't cut out for the DH.

Russ, you mind posting the link to these quotes?

kittle42
12-06-2011, 07:04 PM
Brad Bergesen makes Danny Wright look good.

DirtySouthsider
12-06-2011, 07:05 PM
danconnollysun (https://twitter.com/#%21/danconnollysun) Dan Connolly



Multiple sources have confirmed #Orioles (https://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Orioles) have interest in #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23WhiteSox) starter Gavin Floyd and OF Carlos Quentin. But there may not be a match

5 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/#%21/danconnollysun/status/144219279519260672) [/URL] (https://twitter.com/#)[URL="https://twitter.com/#"] (https://twitter.com/#)

sox1970
12-06-2011, 07:06 PM
You would hope Bergesen is just a throw-in type for a bigger deal.

But you never know with Kenny.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 07:08 PM
You would hope Bergesen is just a throw-in type for a bigger deal.

But you never know with Kenny.

Pretty sure Bergesen was one of the worst pitchers in baseball last season.

PalehosePlanet
12-06-2011, 07:08 PM
Orioles are interested in Quentin, Floyd, and Danks.

Also:



:puking::puking::puking:

Bergesen better not be the primary return but merely a throw-in because he SUCKS!!

JB98
12-06-2011, 07:21 PM
Pretty sure Bergesen was one of the worst pitchers in baseball last season.

His career ERA is below 2 against the White Sox. Much like Mark Teahen, he stinks, but Sox executives think he's good because he owns us.

Brian26
12-06-2011, 07:30 PM
DKnobler DKnobler
White Sox rebuilding: If they get what they want, Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Beckham all will be gone by opening day
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Beckham too? Wow, selling low.

jej254
12-06-2011, 08:09 PM
good! blow up the whole roster.

FreeBuck12
12-06-2011, 08:18 PM
Buster olney reporting the white sox are asking for "ubaldo Jimenez package" for Danks ? Is Kenny high?

(sorry if this was posted somewhere I looked but didn't see it)

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 08:27 PM
Buster olney reporting the white sox are asking for "ubaldo Jimenez package" for Danks ? Is Kenny high?

(sorry if this was posted somewhere I looked but didn't see it)

Nothing wrong with shooting high...hahaha yeah that won't happen, unfortunately. I'd be happy with 1 major league ready player with the ability to be good...let alone four pitching prospects. And for good reason, Ubaldo has a team friendly contract and is under control for three more seasons (3.5 when he was acquired).

KMcMahon817
12-06-2011, 08:39 PM
According to Rosenthal and Heyman, the Mets are about to complete a trade with an unknown partner. The trade involves players "needing a change of scenery" and is a 2 for 1 swap. Cross your fingers!

Update: appears to involve the Giants.

DirtySox
12-06-2011, 08:40 PM
According to Rosenthal and Heyman, the Mets are about to complete a trade with an unknown partner. The trade involves players "needing a change of scenery" and is a 2 for 1 swap. Cross your fingers!

I don't think it's Sox related, but when I hear change of scenery and Mets, I immediately think of Fernando Martinez.

DSpivack
12-06-2011, 08:58 PM
I don't think it's Sox related, but when I hear change of scenery and Mets, I immediately think of Fernando Martinez.

Angel Pagan to the Giants, per Ken Rosenthal.

Soxman219
12-06-2011, 08:58 PM
orioles are interested in quentin, floyd, and danks.

Also:



:puking::puking::puking:

lol

Bucky F. Dent
12-06-2011, 08:59 PM
I just don't know why any team would want to trade for him at this point. Same goes for Adam Dunn. Same goes for Alex Rios.

It's a shame Jim Hendry is unemployed.

guillensdisciple
12-06-2011, 09:07 PM
Kenny Williams better have a good offseason trading for talent otherwise it's his head on the wall.

thomas35forever
12-06-2011, 10:33 PM
Sox may talking with Rowand. Why not? If we're rebuilding, we might as well have some bit of '05 nostalgia.
http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/whitesox-talk/post/White-Sox-talking-with-Rowand?blockID=607182&feedID=10338&awid=4744744323899310817-914

SoxSpeed22
12-06-2011, 10:44 PM
Fan favoritezzzzzzzz

FreeBuck12
12-06-2011, 10:57 PM
I think it was the fake Kenny Williams twitter that tweeted something like "javy, uribe, rowand, garland, macdougal, AND Carlos lee... I'm putting the band back together!" hahahaha

dwalteroo
12-06-2011, 11:00 PM
I don't understand. Rowand isn't scheduled to be White Sox manager until 2019.

FreeBuck12
12-07-2011, 12:49 AM
Posted this in the other forum. But buster olney meant the sox wanted a talent package similar to the one Cleveland gave up for Jimenez not that the sox actually want Jimenez... This coming from Scotty merkin, my surrogate uncle and MLB.com white sox beat writer

Tragg
12-07-2011, 01:43 AM
De Aza's been a career minor leaguer except for half of last year and that brief stint with the Marlins before he got hurt.

I'm encouraged by his numbers last year, but not expecting that over a full season. Defensively, he should be in center, especially if Quentin is moved, with Rios going to right where he'd be above average..

De Aza did well in his first real shot. He outplayed, dare I say it, Pierre. He didn't look like a career minor leaguer, in contrast to Wise or some of those 2007 clowns we put out there. He's no great shakes, obviously, but if we're going to upgrade, then really upgrade. He's cheap and I'd far prefer him to signing some $4 mill free agent who's no real upgrade. The last thing a rebuilding club (or any club) needs is to fritter away scarce budget dollars on mediocrity.

tebman
12-07-2011, 01:31 PM
I don't understand. Rowand isn't scheduled to be White Sox manager until 2019.


:rolling:

DSpivack
12-07-2011, 02:32 PM
Sox talking with the other Sox on Danks/Floyd?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/white-sox-red-sox-meeting-on-danks-floyd.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

soltrain21
12-07-2011, 02:39 PM
Sox talking with the other Sox on Danks/Floyd?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/12/white-sox-red-sox-meeting-on-danks-floyd.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Get Otis on the phone NOW.

Foulke You
12-07-2011, 02:42 PM
I wonder if we could get Boston to take Alex Rios's contract as part of a Danks deal? We would probably have to accept less of a return though but that would free up a lot of cash.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 02:44 PM
I wonder if we could get Boston to take Alex Rios's contract as part of a Danks deal? We would probably have to accept less of a return though but that would free up a lot of cash.

Nope. Not for 1 year of Danks. Rios is going nowhere unless for another bad contract.

KMcMahon817
12-07-2011, 02:44 PM
I wonder if we could get Boston to take Alex Rios's contract as part of a Danks deal? We would probably have to accept less of a return though but that would free up a lot of cash.

Doubt it.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 03:10 PM
CST_soxvan Daryl Van Schouwen
Bosox said to be talking to Chisox about Gavin Floyd today. It's known Orioles, Gavin's hometown team, also among those interested in Gavin
35 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DSpivack
12-07-2011, 03:18 PM
CST_soxvan Daryl Van Schouwen
Bosox said to be talking to Chisox about Gavin Floyd today. It's known Orioles, Gavin's hometown team, also among those interested in Gavin
35 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DKnobler:
Red Sox asked on Danks, Floyd. At this point, unlikely there's a match. [via Twitter]

SoxSpeed22
12-07-2011, 03:22 PM
I think Floyd would be a disaster in Boston. I might take a shot at Rios for Lackey though. Maybe Rios for Figgins is Seattle is stupid enough to bite.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 03:25 PM
DKnobler DKnobler
White Sox truly willing to discuss trading anyone, although if someone wanted Konerko, it would require Reinsdorf intervention
27 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

SoxSpeed22
12-07-2011, 03:33 PM
DKnobler DKnobler
White Sox truly willing to discuss trading anyone, although if someone wanted Konerko, it would require Reinsdorf intervention
27 seconds ago Favorite Retweet ReplyI really hope personal feelings don't get in the way. Paulie's trade value is at it's highest right now, so they can get something good from him now. I don't think Konerko gets traded this year, but I hope we don't have to hear anything about missing out on a great player.

soltrain21
12-07-2011, 03:35 PM
I really hope personal feelings don't get in the way. Paulie's trade value is at it's highest right now, so they can get something good from him now. I don't think Konerko gets traded this year, but I hope we don't have to hear anything about missing out on a great player.

I'm sure the Marlins would be interested if they miss out on Pujols and Fielder.

GoGoCrede
12-07-2011, 03:36 PM
I really hope personal feelings don't get in the way. Paulie's trade value is at it's highest right now, so they can get something good from him now. I don't think Konerko gets traded this year, but I hope we don't have to hear anything about missing out on a great player.

I wonder how much Buehrle and Konerko being gone will make ticket sales drop, whether that affects their decision, etc.

kittle42
12-07-2011, 03:37 PM
I wish we had anyone at the minor-league level exciting or promising enough to fill the shoes of anyone who is departing. But I guess we'll be acquiring those guys in these trades, given the Sox' track record of minor league talent evaluation!

DSpivack
12-07-2011, 03:40 PM
I really hope personal feelings don't get in the way. Paulie's trade value is at it's highest right now, so they can get something good from him now. I don't think Konerko gets traded this year, but I hope we don't have to hear anything about missing out on a great player.

I doubt Konerko brings back much in trade. I wouldn't mind trading him if he wants to be on a contender, he deserves that.

soxinem1
12-07-2011, 03:44 PM
I'm sure the Marlins would be interested if they miss out on Pujols and Fielder.

I was thinking the same thing, with both MIA and MIL......


I doubt Konerko brings back much in trade. I wouldn't mind trading him if he wants to be on a contender, he deserves that.

I wouldn't say that. You get a productive bat for a few years, no long-term back-loaded contract, and payroll flexibility. PK will make far less than Fielder or Pujols and the team that gets him will not be handcuffed payroll wise.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 03:48 PM
I was thinking the same thing, with both MIA and MIL......




I wouldn't say that. You get a productive bat for a few years, no long-term back-loaded contract, and payroll flexibility. PK will make far less than Fielder or Pujols and the team that gets him will not be handcuffed payroll wise.

Agreed. Konerko has value. He would bring back a nice piece or two.

asindc
12-07-2011, 03:49 PM
I think Floyd would be a disaster in Boston. I might take a shot at Rios for Lackey though. Maybe Rios for Figgins is Seattle is stupid enough to bite.

On the contrary, it would be smart for Seattle to bite. Figgins is a speed guy who has almost finished his rapid decline. Rios has earned much more of the money the Sox have paid him than Figgins has earned with Seattle.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 04:00 PM
Once CJ signs, the Danks/Floyd market will open up.

DSpivack
12-07-2011, 04:03 PM
Once CJ signs, the Danks/Floyd market will open up.

Might as well trade them both as well as Konerko.

Blow the whole **** up.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 04:12 PM
Might as well trade them both as well as Konerko.

Blow the whole **** up.

It really seems to be happening. The writing has been on the wall. It sounds like for once Kenny wasn't bull****ting.

Tragg
12-07-2011, 04:17 PM
It really seems to be happening. The writing has been on the wall. It sounds like for once Kenny wasn't bull****ting.

Yet we sign a mediocre middle reliever for nearly $4 million.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 04:19 PM
Yet we sign a mediocre middle reliever for nearly $4 million.

I'd bet he's traded too. At least at the trade deadline if serviceable.

WhiteSox5187
12-07-2011, 04:34 PM
It really seems to be happening. The writing has been on the wall. It sounds like for once Kenny wasn't bull****ting.

No he wasn't, but I have no faith that the guy who got us into this ****ing mess has any capability of getting us out of it.

vinny
12-07-2011, 04:35 PM
Wonder if having KW put this rebuilding into motion is the equivalent of him having to dig his own grave.

sullythered
12-07-2011, 04:43 PM
Wonder if having KW put this rebuilding into motion is the equivalent of him having to dig his own grave.

That would be awesome. Then perhaps we can get someone capable of drafting and developing for this rebuild. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 05:13 PM
ESPNChiSox Doug Padilla
KW says no moves are on the way. Did admit that payroll still has to come down a bit.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Interesting. Even with Mark gone, they still need to cut.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 05:24 PM
CST_soxvan Daryl Van Schouwen
Williams heading out Thursday
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

doublem23
12-07-2011, 05:30 PM
ESPNChiSox Doug Padilla
KW says no moves are on the way. Did admit that payroll still has to come down a bit.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Interesting. Even with Mark gone, they still need to cut.

Well, scheduled raised to Floyd, Alexei, Peavy, Thornton, and AJ eat up nearly $11 M so that's almost all what Buehrle made last year. Throw in projected increases for Quentin and Danks and you can see how they might still need to trim a little fat.

BleacherBandit
12-07-2011, 05:32 PM
Please, please don't get rid of Danks.

Only proven LHP Sox have in rotation.

DSpivack
12-07-2011, 05:32 PM
ESPNChiSox Doug Padilla
KW says no moves are on the way. Did admit that payroll still has to come down a bit.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Interesting. Even with Mark gone, they still need to cut.

Not surprising to me. According to Cot's*, not including arbitration figures for Danks or TCQ, Sox payroll is around $93million. I expect those two to each receive around $10 million, maybe a little less. That ups to the payroll to around $110 million. I thought I read somewhere this offseason that payroll will likely settle around $100 million.

*https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tK7uKP_MP8Unu0Mx46heFcg&output=html

kobo
12-07-2011, 05:44 PM
ESPNChiSox Doug Padilla
KW says no moves are on the way. Did admit that payroll still has to come down a bit.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Interesting. Even with Mark gone, they still need to cut.
Buehrle never factored into the 2012 payroll, so his being gone means nothing. They have about $90 million committed already without factoring in arbitration for Danks, Quentin, and Beckham. Of that ~$90 million, 55.5 of it is tied up in Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Konerko. I think KW is going to be able to make one move, maybe 2 this winter, but for the most part he's going to have to hope that Peavy, Rios, and Dunn all bounce back, have incredible first halves of the season, and then is able to move 1 or 2 at the trade deadline. At this point I don't see any team having an interest in any of those 3, but that could change if they bounce back next season.

Domeshot17
12-07-2011, 06:00 PM
Buehrle never factored into the 2012 payroll, so his being gone means nothing. They have about $90 million committed already without factoring in arbitration for Danks, Quentin, and Beckham. Of that ~$90 million, 55.5 of it is tied up in Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Konerko. I think KW is going to be able to make one move, maybe 2 this winter, but for the most part he's going to have to hope that Peavy, Rios, and Dunn all bounce back, have incredible first halves of the season, and then is able to move 1 or 2 at the trade deadline. At this point I don't see any team having an interest in any of those 3, but that could change if they bounce back next season.

The one upside of Beckham being a complete bust thusfar is his arbitration number won't be ****.

Moses_Scurry
12-07-2011, 07:00 PM
Buehrle never factored into the 2012 payroll, so his being gone means nothing. They have about $90 million committed already without factoring in arbitration for Danks, Quentin, and Beckham. Of that ~$90 million, 55.5 of it is tied up in Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Konerko. I think KW is going to be able to make one move, maybe 2 this winter, but for the most part he's going to have to hope that Peavy, Rios, and Dunn all bounce back, have incredible first halves of the season, and then is able to move 1 or 2 at the trade deadline. At this point I don't see any team having an interest in any of those 3, but that could change if they bounce back next season.

Rios, Dunn, and Peavy cannot be gone soon enough. It will be very hard to watch games because I will be disgusted any time Rios and Dunn are on the screen.

russ99
12-07-2011, 07:23 PM
The one upside of Beckham being a complete bust thusfar is his arbitration number won't be ****.

I thought Beckham wasn't a super-two, and heads to his first arb after next season... According to Cot's his service time is 2.123.

DirtySox
12-07-2011, 07:27 PM
I thought Beckham wasn't a super-two, and heads to his first arb after next season... According to Cot's his service time is 2.123.

Right. He isn't arbitration eligible until 2013.

russ99
12-07-2011, 07:28 PM
I thought Beckham wasn't a super-two, and heads to his first arb after next season... According to Cot's his service time is 2.123.

Edit: Yep, no arb for Beckham this year... here's the list and Gordon's not on it:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/10/price-porcello-among-27-to-reach-super-two-status.html

#1swisher
12-07-2011, 08:41 PM
Doug Padilla - Meetings are nothing like Sox planned.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/8322/meetings-are-nothing-like-white-sox-planned?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

KW- Went into these meetings thinking it would be more trade meetings than free-agent meetings. I think it turned out to be quite the opposite.

The most popular White Sox player asked about from rival mangers is Brent Lillibridge.

Lip Man 1
12-07-2011, 09:02 PM
I hope the Sox hang on to Beckham for this year, I'd like to see what happens with him away from Greg Walker.

Lip

KMcMahon817
12-07-2011, 09:08 PM
Doug Padilla - Meetings are nothing like Sox planned.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/8322/meetings-are-nothing-like-white-sox-planned?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

KW- Went into these meetings thinking it would be more trade meetings than free-agent meetings. I think it turned out to be quite the opposite.

The most popular White Sox player asked about from rival mangers is Brent Lillibridge.

I know many people on this board disagree, but I wouldn't mind if the SOX stand mostly pat and don't go into some long rebuilding process. The core of a team that was expected to win the AL Central in 2011 is close to the same. I still expect Quentin to get dealt, but if KW can't get impact players that are ready to contribute at the major league level in exchange for Danks, Floyd and to a lesser extent Konerko, Alexei and Beckham, well then he shouldn't deal them.

A year from now Danks, Peavy and AJ are off the books (and Q if he is not traded). If Dunn were to have a good year in 2012, maybe there is chance that he could be moved next offseason. At that point, the team is down to one bad contract in Alex Rios and an expensive one in Konerko. Then the SOX will have some cash to spend on free agents and have a couple years to put a real solid contender on the field.

Everything that could have gone wrong in 2011 did. I don't expect it to happen that way again in 2012. I would at least prefer to watch this team as currently constructed, than some team with Dunn, Rios, Morel and a bunch of kids/nobodies.

WhiffleBall
12-08-2011, 09:01 AM
I know many people on this board disagree, but I wouldn't mind if the SOX stand mostly pat and don't go into some long rebuilding process. The core of a team that was expected to win the AL Central in 2011 is close to the same. I still expect Quentin to get dealt, but if KW can't get impact players that are ready to contribute at the major league level in exchange for Danks, Floyd and to a lesser extent Konerko, Alexei and Beckham, well then he shouldn't deal them.

A year from now Danks, Peavy and AJ are off the books (and Q if he is not traded). If Dunn were to have a good year in 2012, maybe there is chance that he could be moved next offseason. At that point, the team is down to one bad contract in Alex Rios and an expensive one in Konerko. Then the SOX will have some cash to spend on free agents and have a couple years to put a real solid contender on the field.

Everything that could have gone wrong in 2011 did. I don't expect it to happen that way again in 2012. I would at least prefer to watch this team as currently constructed, than some team with Dunn, Rios, Morel and a bunch of kids/nobodies.

Agree 100%. We currently have the 2011 team without MB, Santos, Juan P, and Ozzie. Leave everything intact and hope for the best especially if KW is only getting low ball offers for Danks/Floyd/TCQ. De Aza looked good and if Addison Reed or Thorton can close then we should at least be competitive in our division. A turnaround for both Rios and Dunn would really make things interesting.

PorkChopExpress
12-08-2011, 12:01 PM
Man, were these meetings a let down. I know that the meetings are the starting point for deals that might happen later, but from the coverage of them, it would seem that no one is all that interested in paying for what we've got to offer. Supposedly when Kenny showed up, everyone wanted to talk to him, and all we get accomplished this week was trading our closer for a prospect and officially saying goodbye to a long time favorite. Talk about in like a lion, out like a lamb. I just hope there is more to come.

A. Cavatica
12-08-2011, 01:47 PM
The asking price for Lillibridge had better be a #1 starter and cash to offset payroll.

Tragg
12-08-2011, 01:56 PM
I hope the Sox hang on to Beckham for this year, I'd like to see what happens with him away from Greg Walker.

Lip

Agreed. Trading him now would be selling low. He also plays excellent defense.

RCWHITESOX
12-08-2011, 09:30 PM
Man, were these meetings a let down. I know that the meetings are the starting point for deals that might happen later, but from the coverage of them, it would seem that no one is all that interested in paying for what we've got to offer. Supposedly when Kenny showed up, everyone wanted to talk to him, and all we get accomplished this week was trading our closer for a prospect and officially saying goodbye to a long time favorite. Talk about in like a lion, out like a lamb. I just hope there is more to come.

Be carefull for what you wish for. Williams has allready fessed up to this being a rebuilding year and sooner or later he will be unloading players. You can bank on it!

Brian26
12-08-2011, 10:07 PM
I would imagine the obvious move now is the Danks Brothers to Texas. The only question is who comes back in return.

Crooked Number
12-09-2011, 01:36 AM
I would imagine the obvious move now is the Danks Brothers to Texas. The only question is who comes back in return.

John and Jordan for Nelson Cruz! :D:

I agree with the standing pat post. Sounds like we aren't going to be getting any decent offers for our blue chippers. Kenny's track record with getting prospects for guys isn't that great. That isn't his m.o. I agree that the 2011 "contending" sox team minus 56, Pierre, and Santos could be competetive if...if Dunn and Rios decide they can play baseball again. Fingers crossed.

DirtySox
12-11-2011, 10:40 AM
I guess this is a post winter meetings rumor thread now?


Jon_Heyman Jon Heyman
#chisox had something working w/ bluejays for quentin but it appears to be cool now. seeking other suitors.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
12-11-2011, 02:52 PM
Richard Griffin
Further to @Jon_Heyman re Quentin & Jays. AA & KennyW discussed fits for Quentin, Danks, Beckham & Santos. Settled on Santos ... for now.
1 hour ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply

Tragg
12-11-2011, 09:41 PM
Richard Griffin
Further to @Jon_Heyman re Quentin & Jays. AA & KennyW discussed fits for Quentin, Danks, Beckham & Santos. Settled on Santos ... for now.
1 hour ago via web Favorite Retweet Reply

Sounds like Williams is getting friendly with another GM for trading purposes; kind of like that Arizona period.
I wish he wouldn't.

bestkosher
12-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Well with the newly hired scout from Toronto we hired Kenny is trying to use him for as much info as he can since everything else he seems to be using is coming up dry for him.

DirtySox
12-12-2011, 09:56 AM
Jon_Heyman Jon Heyman
#chisox asked for 2 of montero/banuelos/betances for danks. #yankees might -- might -- give up 1 in a package. worth watching.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

KMcMahon817
12-12-2011, 10:07 AM
Jon_Heyman Jon Heyman
#chisox asked for 2 of montero/banuelos/betances for danks. #yankees might -- might -- give up 1 in a package. worth watching.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Take your time Kenny. The suitors will come...make someone grossly overpay.

The thought of Danks in a Yankee uniform is nauseating.

asindc
12-12-2011, 10:55 AM
Jon_Heyman Jon Heyman
#chisox asked for 2 of montero/banuelos/betances for danks. #yankees might -- might -- give up 1 in a package. worth watching.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Dear NYY:

You badly need pitching. The Sox have it. You must pay them to get some of their pitching. Period. If you don't someone else will pay to get it.

asindc

DirtySox
12-12-2011, 11:05 AM
Take your time Kenny. The suitors will come...make someone grossly overpay.

The thought of Danks in a Yankee uniform is nauseating.

Betances is probably the most likely of the three to be traded. The other two have so much more value. Kenny will get my praise if he could pry one of Montero or Banuelos though.

KMcMahon817
12-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Betances is probably the most likely of the three to be traded. The other two have so much more value. Kenny will get my praise if he could pry one of Montero or Banuelos though.

I don't know a ton about Betances, but his minor league number don't really impress me. I'd much prefer Montero and Banuelos.

Think there is any way the SOX could get Gary Sanchez in a deal? Seems as though the Yanks have their fair share of young catchers. I'd take him and Betances! :smile:

slavko
12-12-2011, 01:11 PM
Take your time Kenny. The suitors will come...make someone grossly overpay.

The thought of Danks in a Yankee uniform is nauseating.

Soft tossing lefties to the Yankees. Been a problem for us since Eddie Lopat turned into a Sox-killer.

DirtySox
12-12-2011, 01:16 PM
I don't know a ton about Betances, but his minor league number don't really impress me. I'd much prefer Montero and Banuelos.

Think there is any way the SOX could get Gary Sanchez in a deal? Seems as though the Yanks have their fair share of young catchers. I'd take him and Betances! :smile:

Betances is a guy with two plus pitches, a fastball and a curve. His third pitch is a change. It's not all that great now but it could possibly become an average pitch. Dellin is big guy. 6' 8" and 260. He has some issues with control, mechanics, and the ability to repeat his delivery. He could be a pretty good starter if many of these flaws are alleviated. If not, he projects as a high leverage relief type. The consensus at this point is that he's more likely a reliever than a starter. If Betances is the only return in a Danks trade, I wouldn't like it.

I'm high on Gary Sanchez as well, but I have no idea if the Yankees would trade him. I'd wager he's not untouchable considering how far away he is. I'm also a fan of Slade Heathcott.

Montero or Banuelos as you said are more desirable. They are much better prospects. There's no chance Kenny gets both though. In all baseball, Montero is a top 10 prospect, and Banuelos probably top 30. Together they could headline a package for Gio if the Yankees so desired.

Hitmen77
12-12-2011, 01:58 PM
Jon_Heyman Jon Heyman
#chisox asked for 2 of montero/banuelos/betances for danks. #yankees might -- might -- give up 1 in a package. worth watching.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Interestingly, this article suggests the Yankees trade two of these guys to the A's for Gio Gonzalez.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-12-06/news/30483679_1_jesus-montero-cashman-dellin-betances

palehozenychicty
12-12-2011, 03:30 PM
Interestingly, this article suggests the Yankees trade two of these guys to the A's for Gio Gonzalez.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-12-06/news/30483679_1_jesus-montero-cashman-dellin-betances

I think Danks is better than Gio, but Cashman has already ripped off Kenny once. He'd surely do it again and hold onto those two.

KMcMahon817
12-12-2011, 03:52 PM
I think Danks is better than Gio, but Cashman has already ripped off Kenny once. He'd surely do it again and hold onto those two.

Danks is assuredly better than Gio. Problem is, Gio is coming off a great year and is under control through 2015.

Danks had a ****ty 2011 which does not help his value. I am of the opinion that Danks ceiling is that of an ace, but it appears that the pundits and the market have another idea of his value.

I guess we'll see, but I still on the "ransom" or nothing bandwagon. I'd like to see the SOX keep the team intact unless they can get a "ransom", "steal the farm", "make someone grossly overpay", "insert the witty line" return.

I just don't think the SOX are in a great position to be in full-rebuild mode. I know most of you hate the rebuild-on-the-fly/retool theme that the SOX have done recently, but I think it makes the most sense this off-season.

A lot of money comes off the books after next season, and IF and I know its a BIG if, Dunn rebounds...someone will take him. Then you're looking at team that has the available cash to sign some impact players, AND the SOX aren't marred in some brutally long rebuilding process ala KC, PITT, CLE, etc.

Maybe it is the AL Central that keeps me positive. Maybe it is the optimist in me. I don't know. I just think the SOX can compete next year with standing mostly pat, and I sure as **** would rather watch that than some team with a bunch of mid-level prospects and overpaid veterans.

Now if you can get teams to give up major league ready impact prospects, I am more inclined to go towards a full-rebuild. But it doesn't appear that there is a market for that. If all you can get for Danks is some huge, wildly inaccurate, right-handed pitcher that profiles as late-inning reliever....count me out. :dunno:

russ99
12-12-2011, 06:42 PM
Danks is assuredly better than Gio. Problem is, Gio is coming off a great year and is under control through 2015.

Danks had a ****ty 2011 which does not help his value. I am of the opinion that Danks ceiling is that of an ace, but it appears that the pundits and the market have another idea of his value.

I guess we'll see, but I still on the "ransom" or nothing bandwagon. I'd like to see the SOX keep the team intact unless they can get a "ransom", "steal the farm", "make someone grossly overpay", "insert the witty line" return.

I just don't think the SOX are in a great position to be in full-rebuild mode. I know most of you hate the rebuild-on-the-fly/retool theme that the SOX have done recently, but I think it makes the most sense this off-season.

A lot of money comes off the books after next season, and IF and I know its a BIG if, Dunn rebounds...someone will take him. Then you're looking at team that has the available cash to sign some impact players, AND the SOX aren't marred in some brutally long rebuilding process ala KC, PITT, CLE, etc.

Maybe it is the AL Central that keeps me positive. Maybe it is the optimist in me. I don't know. I just think the SOX can compete next year with standing mostly pat, and I sure as **** would rather watch that than some team with a bunch of mid-level prospects and overpaid veterans.

Now if you can get teams to give up major league ready impact prospects, I am more inclined to go towards a full-rebuild. But it doesn't appear that there is a market for that. If all you can get for Danks is some huge, wildly inaccurate, right-handed pitcher that profiles as late-inning reliever....count me out. :dunno:

A few problems with us getting an overpay for Danks:

1) The team acquiring him could be only getting a one year rental, at a higher salary after arbitration.

2) His subpar 2011, along with a tendency to lose those must win games against other division contenders. He has the stuff for a potential ace left hander, but hasn't turned the corner.

3) His value could go lower depending on what happens in arbitration, so Kenny is a bit under the gun to deal him before numbers get exchanged.

That said, Kenny should play this close to the vest. If he can't get a decent deal done, maybe we should try to re-sign him instead, keeping his salary lower in 2012, then Peavy's exit covering his salary in 2013, etc.

Tragg
12-13-2011, 12:27 PM
A few problems with us getting an overpay for Danks:

1) The team acquiring him could be only getting a one year rental, at a higher salary after arbitration.

2) His subpar 2011, along with a tendency to lose those must win games against other division contenders. He has the stuff for a potential ace left hander, but hasn't turned the corner.

3) His value could go lower depending on what happens in arbitration, so Kenny is a bit under the gun to deal him before numbers get exchanged.

That said, Kenny should play this close to the vest. If he can't get a decent deal done, maybe we should try to re-sign him instead, keeping his salary lower in 2012, then Peavy's exit covering his salary in 2013, etc.
But won't the acquiring team get 2 good draft choices for him? That plus a year of service warrants KW demanding an elite prospect plus 1 or 2 really good ones.
Now, with this team, that 1 year of service won't mean much (at least as I see our fortunes going)...so we may end up selling him for the value of the 2 choices.

russ99
12-13-2011, 08:43 PM
But won't the acquiring team get 2 good draft choices for him? That plus a year of service warrants KW demanding an elite prospect plus 1 or 2 really good ones.
Now, with this team, that 1 year of service won't mean much (at least as I see our fortunes going)...so we may end up selling him for the value of the 2 choices.

Type A and B free agents are abolished in the new CBA, now a team has to offer a player a salary within the top 25 (this year that's $12.4M but sure to go up with some of the recent signings) in order to get one first round pick.

Should be interesting to see if that will limit deadline trading of upcoming FAs next season.

bestkosher
12-14-2011, 09:18 AM
Myguess is that Danks or Floyd will not be close to beign dealt until the Gio Gonzalez trade is figured out. That is goign to be the barometer for what teams will offer the Sox.

Tragg
12-14-2011, 10:11 AM
Type A and B free agents are abolished in the new CBA, now a team has to offer a player a salary within the top 25 (this year that's $12.4M but sure to go up with some of the recent signings) in order to get one first round pick.

Should be interesting to see if that will limit deadline trading of upcoming FAs next season.

That makes it even more imperative to trade him...and will likely lower the bounty.

DirtySox
12-15-2011, 10:09 PM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
#Nationals also want Gio Gonzalez, view #WhiteSox's Danks as Plan B. After missing out on Buehrle, LH starter remains Nats' priority. #MLB
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

SoxSpeed22
12-15-2011, 10:10 PM
It seems that nothing will happen with our pitchers until the domino ahead of them, Gio, is dealt.

DirtySox
12-15-2011, 10:22 PM
It seems that nothing will happen with our pitchers until the domino ahead of them, Gio, is dealt.

Darvish too, but the claim should be officially announced soon.

russ99
12-19-2011, 09:23 PM
Kind of wondering why the Sox haven't done something else by now, since other similar trades are being made.

If we can get a similar return for Danks or Floyd as what the Padres got for Latos, I'd be happy.

Maybe after the Darvish bid is announced and Gio gets dealt, then Kenny can get going.

Could be tomorrow, it is Tuesday...

Brian26
12-19-2011, 09:43 PM
Rosenthal on Hot Stove mentioned that the Padres are very interested in Quentin, TCQ is from that area, and TCQ knows Byrnes from AZ.

DirtySox
12-19-2011, 10:08 PM
Kind of wondering why the Sox haven't done something else by now, since other similar trades are being made.

If we can get a similar return for Danks or Floyd as what the Padres got for Latos, I'd be happy.

Maybe after the Darvish bid is announced and Gio gets dealt, then Kenny can get going.

Could be tomorrow, it is Tuesday...

The Sox aren't getting anything close to what the Padres received for Latos. Latos is a top of the rotation starter being paid peanuts and is under team control for 4 more seasons. Danks and Floyd are middle of the rotation guys being paid close to what they are worth and are under team control for 1 and 2 years respectively. The circumstances are nowhere near comparable.

TDog
12-19-2011, 10:14 PM
The Sox aren't getting anything close to what the Padres received for Latos. Latos is a top of the rotation starter being paid peanuts and is under team control for 4 more seasons. Danks and Floyd are middle of the rotation guys being paid close to what they are worth and are under team control for 1 and 2 years respectively. The circumstances are nowhere near comparable.

The thing is, if Danks or Floyd had been pitching for the Padres for the last few years, I'm wondering if they might be top-of-the-rotation starters being paid peanuts.

DirtySox
12-19-2011, 10:16 PM
The thing is, if Danks or Floyd had been pitching for the Padres for the last few years, I'm wondering if they might be top-of-the-rotation starters being paid peanuts.

Go look at Latos' home/road splits please.

Daver
12-19-2011, 10:26 PM
Rosenthal on Hot Stove mentioned that the Padres are very interested in Quentin, TCQ is from that area, and TCQ knows Byrnes from AZ.

Quentin doesn't have a lot of actual value.

TDog
12-19-2011, 10:28 PM
Go look at Latos' home/road splits please.


I've seen Latos pitch. Quite a bit. I don't need the crutch of judging him by his stats. I think he is a very good pitcher who will be a disappointment in Cincinnati where Reds fans will expect more of him than he will deliver.

But, moreover, I think Danks or Floyd, put in the situation Latos was in -- and that is my point -- would look like top-of-the-rotation starters being paid less.

DirtySox
12-19-2011, 10:33 PM
I don't need the crutch of judging him by his stats.

Brilliant.

TDog
12-20-2011, 12:53 AM
Brilliant.

Seriously, if you watch a lot of baseball, you don't need the stats to tell you how good players are.

I know people agree with me. I've read all kinds of posts about how Sergio Santos is an established quality closer. They don't seem to care that he averaged more that an earned run an inning in September.

bigdommer
12-20-2011, 07:57 AM
Seriously, if you watch a lot of baseball, you don't need the stats to tell you how good players are.

I know people agree with me. I've read all kinds of posts about how Sergio Santos is an established quality closer. They don't seem to care that he averaged more that an earned run an inning in September.

You both have good points. Danks has more experience, is left handed, has pitched in pressure situations, and pitched his entire career in a launching pad. Latos has slightly better numbers, is younger, cheaper, and more years of team control.

We could argue all day about who is better, but in this economic environment where teams are trying to spend less and FA pitchers are way overpriced, teams are willing to pay a premium in a trade for pitchers who are cheap with team control. Latos is only cheap for another year but has several years of control.

As a Sox fan, I am encouraged by this. Cincy gave up a ton to get him. Alonso and Grandal are 1st rounders who can absolutely mash, and while I have never seen Boxberger play, he projects to be a solid setup or closer type and is another 1st round pick. All of those guys are cheap with control. It's funny, Volquez is the best known in this deal and he's more like a throw in. But if you catch lightening in a bottle there he could yield something in a trade.

russ99
12-20-2011, 08:58 AM
Go look at Latos' home/road splits please.

He was definitely helped by pitching at Petco.

The real difference between Latos and Danks/Floyd isn't the quality of pitcher, it's salary and the number of years before FA.

Seems to me that GMs are getting a bit smarter, giving the good prospects for players that they have under control for multiple years/low salary.

KMcMahon817
12-20-2011, 12:28 PM
Quentin doesn't have a lot of actual value.

Blah, blah, blah.

As for the Danks/Latos comparison...I agree with Dirty. It is comparing two very different trades. But, I too am at least encouraged by the return. The Reds gave up a ton, and set the market for top-available pitching. Now Danks does not have nearly as much value, mainly due to his contract situation. I also think that Danks would have very similar, if not better number than Latos pitching for the Pads in Petco. But, it is simply comparing apples to oranges at this point.

That is why I am of the opinion that the SOX should hold onto Danks and see what they have in 2012, rather than trading their best current pitcher. I don't think they have any chance of competing in 2012 without Danks.

Thome25
12-20-2011, 07:33 PM
Blah, blah, blah.

As for the Danks/Latos comparison...I agree with Dirty. It is comparing two very different trades. But, I too am at least encouraged by the return. The Reds gave up a ton, and set the market for top-available pitching. Now Danks does not have nearly as much value, mainly due to his contract situation. I also think that Danks would have very similar, if not better number than Latos pitching for the Pads in Petco. But, it is simply comparing apples to oranges at this point.

That is why I am of the opinion that the SOX should hold onto Danks and see what they have in 2012, rather than trading their best current pitcher. I don't think they have any chance of competing in 2012 without Danks.

IMO the Sox are going to be hard-pressed to compete in 2012 with or without Danks.

Brian26
12-20-2011, 09:15 PM
Seriously, if you watch a lot of baseball, you don't need the stats to tell you how good players are.

I know people agree with me. I've read all kinds of posts about how Sergio Santos is an established quality closer. They don't seem to care that he averaged more that an earned run an inning in September.

There's truth in the spirit of what you're saying. The memory that sticks with me most about Santos in 2011 is not the Detroit meltdown on national tv, but rather that game he had late in the year when he couldn't find the stike zone and threw nine or ten straight balls, including walking two guys in a row on four straight pitches.

Numbers don't lie, but they can be misleading if you're not looking at the facts with your eyes. The Santos collapses down the stretch when he lost his release point and couldn't get his breaking-ball over the plate were telling.

TDog
12-21-2011, 01:05 AM
There's truth in the spirit of what you're saying. The memory that sticks with me most about Santos in 2011 is not the Detroit meltdown on national tv, but rather that game he had late in the year when he couldn't find the stike zone and threw nine or ten straight balls, including walking two guys in a row on four straight pitches.

Numbers don't lie, but they can be misleading if you're not looking at the facts with your eyes. The Santos collapses down the stretch when he lost his release point and couldn't get his breaking-ball over the plate were telling.

Thank you for understanding my point.

The fact is, I like Latos. In 2010, I was aggressively criticized because I listed Latos as one of the NL pitchers who were better at that time and probably would continue to be better in the short-term than Stephen Strasburg (post made prior to his injury). But I also believe Floyd and Danks would have much better numbers if they were coming up through the Padres system. For example, starting for the Padres in recent years has meant facing the weak Giants lineup up to six times a year, every time in a pitcher's ballpark. (The Latos trade made Giants fans very happy.)

If you do well, you tend to put up good numbers. But just because a player does or doesn't put up good numbers doesn't mean he is or isn't capable. Watching players gives you a better idea. If you watched Mike Caruso in his rookie year, he probably didn't look like a .300. And, as it turned out, he wasn't.

If you watch a lot of baseball (and I am amazed at the number of people who post here that they never watch regular-season baseball when the the White Sox aren't playing) you don't need to look at a stats sheet to tell you how good the players you are watching are.

doublem23
12-21-2011, 06:15 AM
If you do well, you tend to put up good numbers. But just because a player does or doesn't put up good numbers doesn't mean he is or isn't capable. Watching players gives you a better idea. If you watched Mike Caruso in his rookie year, he probably didn't look like a .300. And, as it turned out, he wasn't.

If you watch a lot of baseball (and I am amazed at the number of people who post here that they never watch regular-season baseball when the the White Sox aren't playing) you don't need to look at a stats sheet to tell you how good the players you are watching are.

If you think looking at pointless stats like batting average and a pitchers W-L record, yeah, you're right, you'd better be watching the games. Any nimrod would need about 15 seconds with Mike Caruso's stats from 1998 and see that his BA was inflated.

You are correct that looking at stats is a pointless endeavor if you have no idea what you're looking for.

KMcMahon817
12-21-2011, 11:13 AM
IMO the Sox are going to be hard-pressed to compete in 2012 with or without Danks.

I don't know. If the SOX currently stand pat, they aren't far behind the Tigers as far as preseason favorites. The AL Central is not going to be good...and the SOX can compete in this division with Danks and the rest of the team intact.

Chez
12-21-2011, 11:41 AM
I don't know. If the SOX currently stand pat, they aren't far behind the Tigers as far as preseason favorites. The AL Central is not going to be good...and the SOX can compete in this division with Danks and the rest of the team intact.

Love your optimism, but the Sox finished 16 [!] games behind Detroit WITH Buehrle and Santos. Detroit hasn't lost a single key player this off season.

guillensdisciple
12-21-2011, 12:00 PM
Love your optimism, but the Sox finished 16 [!] games behind Detroit WITH Buehrle and Santos. Detroit hasn't lost a single key player this off season.

Ye I'm with you there- at best I can see us squeaking out 80 wins and I believe 87 will win the division. We will probably be in the mix for a while without truly being in it. Basically only on paper

JB98
12-21-2011, 12:48 PM
Love your optimism, but the Sox finished 16 [!] games behind Detroit WITH Buehrle and Santos. Detroit hasn't lost a single key player this off season.

I could see Detroit coming back to the pack a little bit. Verlander's ERA was a full point below his career mark last year. Is he going to have a season like that again? How about Peralta? He had a career year with the bat. And I doubt Valverde goes the whole season without blowing a save again.

That said, the Sox would still need to take a step forward. I can't see them doing that. They were 19-12 in Buehrle's 31 starts and 60-71 with everybody else on the mound. Who is going to pick up the slack for those 200 innings? Zach Stewart? Phil Humber? Peavy? Fat chance.

TDog
12-21-2011, 01:10 PM
If you think looking at pointless stats like batting average and a pitchers W-L record, yeah, you're right, you'd better be watching the games. Any nimrod would need about 15 seconds with Mike Caruso's stats from 1998 and see that his BA was inflated.

You are correct that looking at stats is a pointless endeavor if you have no idea what you're looking for.

By the same token, if you're not watching players play, looking at stats can be pointless because you won't know what to look for.

If you're looking at Adam Dunn's on-base percentage at just about any point in his career, you're looking at a pointless stat. For most hitters, especially most power hitters, on-base percentage without a solid batting average at its foundation is a pointless stat Walk totals for power hitters often are inflated. The best season of Nick Swisher's career was the one where he walked about 25 fewer times in about 50 more appearances than in the worst season of his career. Different players do different things well, and different stats reflect what they do and don't do.

Wins might not tell you how nasty a pitcher is, but starters with a lot of wins generally pitch deep into games. A starter with 20 wins helps his team more than a starter with 10 wins and an ERA more than a run less and a superior WHIP. If the rules required every pitcher to finish every game he started, the other stats would have far more meaning. If you consider the number of ground doubleplays Mark Buehrle has induced and his pickoffs, you have to consider his WHIP to be inflated. If you watched him consistently pitch out of jams and still have the ability to go deep into games, you would have to say his WHIP wasn't a critical stat.

Saying wins for a starter is a meaningless stat is as silly as saying ERA is a meaningless stat.

And then you could look at Sergio Santos, who I thought ran out of gas late in his rookie season, recording an ERA over 5 in September. He moved into the closing role in late April of his sophomore season and in October had an ERA in excess of 9. (Note for those who cringe at the thought of Thornton closing because he looked so bad at beginning of the 2011 season: Santos had a higher ERA in September than Thornton had in March.) I think you can look at his stats and conclude Santos isn't the closer savior people thought he was early in the season. But you could conclude the same thing by watching him.

DirtySox
12-21-2011, 02:00 PM
k0na Doug Seyller
#WhiteSox danks signs a big contract with the sox. repeat. big.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


k0na Doug Seyller
#WhiteSox Danks signs a pretty big contract with the Sox. It's big...
24 seconds ago


Speculation, but this guy is the one who broke the Edwin trade last season.

soltrain21
12-21-2011, 02:05 PM
k0na Doug Seyller
#WhiteSox danks signs a big contract with the sox. repeat. big.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Speculation, but this guy is the one who broke the Edwin trade last season.

He repeated big. So does that mean 25 years 2.6 billion?

PalehosePlanet
12-21-2011, 02:06 PM
k0na Doug Seyller
#WhiteSox danks signs a big contract with the sox. repeat. big.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Speculation, but this guy is the dude who broke Edwin trade.

Yeah, the Edwin to Toronto trade right? I remember everyone swearing by this Kona dude on another Sox board.

If so, I'm surprised, but in a good way. I wonder of we're talking 4/60 or 5/75 type deal.

DirtySox
12-21-2011, 02:07 PM
Yeah, the Edwin to Toronto trade right? I remember everyone swearing by this Kona dude on another Sox board.

If so, I'm surprised, but in a good way. I wonder of we're talking 4/60 or 5/75 type deal.

I like Danks. But I'm confused. So they aren't cutting payroll anymore? (If this is true?)

Figures this happens when I'm about to go Christmas shopping.

hi im skot
12-21-2011, 02:09 PM
I like Danks. But I'm confused. So they aren't cutting payroll anymore? (If this is true?)

Figures this happens when I'm about to go Christmas shopping.

I guess you can buy yourself a Danks jersey...?

PalehosePlanet
12-21-2011, 02:10 PM
I like Danks. But I'm confused. So they aren't cutting payroll anymore? (If this is true?)

Figures this happens when I'm about to go Christmas shopping.

It could still happen w/Q, and I'm guessing Danks big money would not kick in until next year when Peavy is gone.

DirtySox
12-21-2011, 02:10 PM
I guess you can buy yourself a Danks jersey...?

Have one already. :D:

DirtySox
12-21-2011, 02:11 PM
It could still happen w/Q, and I'm guessing Danks big money would not kick in until next year when Peavy is gone.

Yea. I wonder if that means they will be trading Floyd instead of Danks? Or maybe going in a complete different direction entirely. Especially since the Sox have been rumored to have serious interest in Cespedes who won't be cheap at all.

DSpivack
12-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Yea. I wonder if that means they will be trading Floyd instead of Danks? Or maybe going in a complete different direction entirely. Especially since the Sox have been rumored to have serious interest in Cespedes who won't be cheap at all.

Floyd has had more value than Danks, anyway, no? Because his contract runs through 2013, not 2012?

DirtySox
12-21-2011, 02:17 PM
Floyd has had more value than Danks, anyway, no? Because his contract runs through 2013, not 2012?

Potentially. I think an argument could be made either way due to handedness, overall stuff, and ceiling of Danks though.

doublem23
12-21-2011, 02:20 PM
By the same token, if you're not watching players play, looking at stats can be pointless because you won't know what to look for.

If you're looking at Adam Dunn's on-base percentage at just about any point in his career, you're looking at a pointless stat. For most hitters, especially most power hitters, on-base percentage without a solid batting average at its foundation is a pointless stat Walk totals for power hitters often are inflated. The best season of Nick Swisher's career was the one where he walked about 25 fewer times in about 50 more appearances than in the worst season of his career. Different players do different things well, and different stats reflect what they do and don't do.

Wins might not tell you how nasty a pitcher is, but starters with a lot of wins generally pitch deep into games. A starter with 20 wins helps his team more than a starter with 10 wins and an ERA more than a run less and a superior WHIP. If the rules required every pitcher to finish every game he started, the other stats would have far more meaning. If you consider the number of ground doubleplays Mark Buehrle has induced and his pickoffs, you have to consider his WHIP to be inflated. If you watched him consistently pitch out of jams and still have the ability to go deep into games, you would have to say his WHIP wasn't a critical stat.

Saying wins for a starter is a meaningless stat is as silly as saying ERA is a meaningless stat.

And then you could look at Sergio Santos, who I thought ran out of gas late in his rookie season, recording an ERA over 5 in September. He moved into the closing role in late April of his sophomore season and in October had an ERA in excess of 9. (Note for those who cringe at the thought of Thornton closing because he looked so bad at beginning of the 2011 season: Santos had a higher ERA in September than Thornton had in March.) I think you can look at his stats and conclude Santos isn't the closer savior people thought he was early in the season. But you could conclude the same thing by watching him.

:facepalm:

You believe in your little world that Adam Dunn has never been a ferocious hitter and that wins mean anything other than a reflection of how good the other 24 guys on your team are. This is a silly argument. Nobody is able to physically watch enough baseball to properly evaluate the proper value of players except for maybe the 25 guys on your favorite team. Stats is a great equalizer, but again, it relies on the observer to be knowledgeable about the subject. Again, you're correct, if all you understand is batting average, pitcher's W-L, and ERA, then yes, stick to watching the games because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

DirtySox
12-21-2011, 02:29 PM
StateStSports Dan Shuftan
Got a call last night from someone who claims that Danks will resign with #WhiteSox for 5 year deal/54 million. #ThisIsARumor
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply.

DonnieDarko
12-21-2011, 02:29 PM
StateStSports Dan Shuftan
Got a call last night from someone who claims that Danks will resign with #WhiteSox for 5 year deal/54 million. #ThisIsARumor
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply.

lolwut :o:

doublem23
12-21-2011, 02:37 PM
StateStSports Dan Shuftan
Got a call last night from someone who claims that Danks will resign with #WhiteSox for 5 year deal/54 million. #ThisIsARumor
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply.

Nice

TDog
12-21-2011, 03:21 PM
:facepalm:

You believe in your little world that Adam Dunn has never been a ferocious hitter and that wins mean anything other than a reflection of how good the other 24 guys on your team are. This is a silly argument. Nobody is able to physically watch enough baseball to properly evaluate the proper value of players except for maybe the 25 guys on your favorite team. Stats is a great equalizer, but again, it relies on the observer to be knowledgeable about the subject. Again, you're correct, if all you understand is batting average, pitcher's W-L, and ERA, then yes, stick to watching the games because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I was making my Adam Dunn argument long before he came to the White Sox. And apparently, when many White Sox fans saw him for the first time, they discovered I was right. The same cold be said for Nick Swisher.

You are right that no one can watch enough baseball to judge every player in the league. Unfortunatley, people believe that they can look at stats and understand every player in the league. There are even people who believe they can look at stats and plug players into different teams in different situations and get the same results. If you are Ted Williams, your on-base percentage is a telling stat. If you're Jack Cust, it's pretty much irrelevant. There are pitchers with great stats who can't win games, who have great ERAs becasue they can't pitch over errors. Some pitchers seem not to worry about giving up unearned runs because it doesn't count against them.

I know what I'm talking about and presented a well-reasoned argument. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. It isn't just contradiction.

doublem23
12-21-2011, 03:25 PM
I was making my Adam Dunn argument long before he came to the White Sox. And apparently, when many White Sox fans saw him for the first time, they discovered I was right. The same cold be said for Nick Swisher.

Oh please you aren't right about ****, Dunn's 2011 season was historically bad in a way that no one could have predicted. Much in the same way you like to dismiss BP for being "right" about the 2007 Sox when they pegged them for 72 wins because they didn't describe their season perfectly, you are equally lucky in the way you had predicted the Adam Dunn meltdown of 2011. Just because you didn't like the signing of Adam Dunn because, I don't know, home runs are bad or something, and he had a terrible season here doesn't mean your vapid opinion on him based on nothing more than you're "I watch games bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeergh" argument doesn't suck ass.

KMcMahon817
12-21-2011, 04:51 PM
StateStSports Dan Shuftan
Got a call last night from someone who claims that Danks will resign with #WhiteSox for 5 year deal/54 million. #ThisIsARumor
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply.

This is great news if true!!!

TDog
12-21-2011, 08:48 PM
Oh please you aren't right about ****, Dunn's 2011 season was historically bad in a way that no one could have predicted. Much in the same way you like to dismiss BP for being "right" about the 2007 Sox when they pegged them for 72 wins because they didn't describe their season perfectly, you are equally lucky in the way you had predicted the Adam Dunn meltdown of 2011. Just because you didn't like the signing of Adam Dunn because, I don't know, home runs are bad or something, and he had a terrible season here doesn't mean your vapid opinion on him based on nothing more than you're "I watch games bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeergh" argument doesn't suck ass.

We aren't that far off, really. You are asserting that people who put their faith in wins and batting average are misguided. I am agreeing and adding that people who put their faith in on-base percentage and peripheral pitching stats are misguided.

If I seem overly sensitive, it's because I find it upsetting to be criticized on a baseball site for watching baseball.

And I didn't make numerous predictions about player performance and happen to get one right and thump my chest over it. I was upset about the White Sox trading for a player I viewed as being Mark Reynolds with more minimal defensive skills. Mark Reynolds wasn't that far off from having the offensive season many Sox fans expected from Dunn in 2011, and he hit .198 with nearly 600 plate appearances in 2010, so I wasn't that far off. Dunn had an abysmal season pretty much for the reasons I wrote that I expected him to have an abysmal season. It's a damn shame because over the last 12 months, he has taken the franchise down with him. I only hope he can concentrate on making contact in the future instead of trying to be the next Joe Borchard.

If you define offensive beasts as hitters who hit around 40 home runs and strike out close to 200 times while posting dismal batting averages, Dunn in the National League was an offensive beast. If you want a winning baseball lineup, you need more contribution from your offensive beast than six or seven home runs a month.

kittle42
12-22-2011, 09:02 AM
We aren't that far off, really. You are asserting that people who put their faith in wins and batting average are misguided. I am agreeing and adding that people who put their faith in on-base percentage and peripheral pitching stats are misguided.

If I seem overly sensitive, it's because I find it upsetting to be criticized on a baseball site for watching baseball.

And I didn't make numerous predictions about player performance and happen to get one right and thump my chest over it. I was upset about the White Sox trading for a player I viewed as being Mark Reynolds with more minimal defensive skills. Mark Reynolds wasn't that far off from having the offensive season many Sox fans expected from Dunn in 2011, and he hit .198 with nearly 600 plate appearances in 2010, so I wasn't that far off. Dunn had an abysmal season pretty much for the reasons I wrote that I expected him to have an abysmal season. It's a damn shame because over the last 12 months, he has taken the franchise down with him. I only hope he can concentrate on making contact in the future instead of trying to be the next Joe Borchard.

If you define offensive beasts as hitters who hit around 40 home runs and strike out close to 200 times while posting dismal batting averages, Dunn in the National League was an offensive beast. If you want a winning baseball lineup, you need more contribution from your offensive beast than six or seven home runs a month.

Hard to reason with a person who probably thinks Felix Hernandez' 2010 Cy Young win was the biggest travesty of the past few seasons because he apparently didn't know how to win games - with the Mariners.

WhiteSox5187
12-22-2011, 12:45 PM
Hard to reason with a person who probably thinks Felix Hernandez' 2010 Cy Young win was the biggest travesty of the past few seasons because he apparently didn't know how to win games - with the Mariners.

I don't think that that was the point he was trying to make, I think the original poster was arguing that wins aren't a useless stat and that they can tell more than whether or not a guy was lucky. They aren't the end all be all of stats but they aren't useless either.