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Fenway
11-15-2011, 08:16 PM
enjoy

Comiskey Park
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675045978_base-ball-match_New-York-Giants_Chicago-White-Sox_Comiskey-Park


Polo Grounds
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675045977_base-ball-match_New-York-Giants_crowd-cheering_Giants-win


White Sox win pennant in 1959
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675044710_Chicago-White-Sox_Cleveland-Indians_American-League_White-Sox-wins


and on a sad note - the final game of 1959
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675027990_World-Championship_Los-Angeles-Dodgers_Chicago-White-Sox_Dodgers-win_Comiskey-park








http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1917/YPS_1917.htm

soxinem1
11-15-2011, 08:22 PM
Wow. Great find, Fenway!!! :bandance:

Vernam
11-15-2011, 09:11 PM
Damn east coast bias! Too much emphasis on the Giants! :angry:

That first clip in particular is absolutely golden. Thanks a million, Fenway.

Vernam

LITTLE NELL
11-15-2011, 10:24 PM
The clip on the the 59 clincher in Cleveland is wrong. The real DP was Aparicio stepping on 2nd and throwing to Klu for the last out. The DP they show is Luis throwing to Fox who relayed to Klu, that was earlier in the game. You can also see that the pitcher was Wynn with number 24, not Staley. Trust me on this, it is something I will never forget.

The DP they show was in the bottom of the 5th, check out the PBP.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE195909220.shtml

Fenway
11-16-2011, 01:46 PM
What struck me about the 1959 clip in Cleveland was that photographers were on the field. While this was common in the 20's and 30's, I had no idea it was still allowed in 1959.

wilburaga
11-16-2011, 01:56 PM
The clip on the the 59 clincher in Cleveland is wrong. The real DP was Aparicio stepping on 2nd and throwing to Klu for the last out. The DP they show is Luis throwing to Fox who relayed to Klu, that was earlier in the game. You can also see that the pitcher was Wynn with number 24, not Staley. Trust me on this, it is something I will never forget.

The DP they show was in the bottom of the 5th, check out the PBP.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE195909220.shtml

Spoken like a man who knows whereof he speaks.

Golden Sox
11-16-2011, 05:09 PM
I've never seen these 1917 films before. Seeing them has made my day.

roylestillman
11-16-2011, 06:25 PM
This whole site is an amazing find. There are over 350 Chicago related clips. Thanks Fenway.

russ99
11-17-2011, 08:51 PM
I especially like the clip of the Chicago Cardinals playing football at Comiskey.

Foulke You
11-18-2011, 02:33 PM
Thanks Fenway. Great clips of the 1917 World Series. I wonder who originally shot this footage? I imagine it must have been used for film news reels that were shown in movie theaters.

Ex-Chicagoan
11-18-2011, 02:39 PM
Fantastic find on a wintry day... thanks!

SI1020
11-18-2011, 02:48 PM
I always love that clip of Jungle Jim Rivera with the crazy hat on dancing in the clubhouse in Cleveland after the Sox clinched the pennant.

LITTLE NELL
11-18-2011, 03:06 PM
I always love that clip of Jungle Jim Rivera with the crazy hat on dancing in the clubhouse in Cleveland after the Sox clinched the pennant.

Met Jungle Jim at the Naples Beach Hotel and Golf Club when I was working in the pro-shop there. We talked 1950s White sox baseball and then he went back to his car and brought back a picture of him at Comiskey that was taken in 1957 and he signed for me.

Fenway
11-18-2011, 03:30 PM
The upper deck looks like it was much bigger in 1917....was it rebuilt later?

LITTLE NELL
11-18-2011, 03:42 PM
The upper deck looks like it was much bigger in 1917....was it rebuilt later?

Thats the same upper deck. It probably looks larger because it only went from 1st base to 3rd base up until 1926. After the 1926 season the park was double decked almost completely with only the small bleacher in CF.
I have a great book called Comiskey Park by Irwin Cohen with the whole history of Comiskey.

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/past/comiskeyold.jpg

Foulke You
11-18-2011, 06:37 PM
Thats the same upper deck. It probably looks larger because it only went from 1st base to 3rd base up until 1926. After the 1926 season the park was double decked almost completely with only the small bleacher in CF.
I have a great book called Comiskey Park by Irwin Cohen with the whole history of Comiskey.

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/past/comiskeyold.jpg
I haven't seen that book. I'll have to keep an eye out for it but the White Sox Encyclopedia by Rich Lindberg also does a great job covering the history of Comiskey Park.

SI1020
11-18-2011, 07:04 PM
I especially like the clip of the Chicago Cardinals playing football at Comiskey. Is this the game you are referring to?

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675045478_football-match_Cleveland-Browns_Chicago-cards_people-gather

apbaball
11-24-2011, 09:28 AM
enjoy

Comiskey Park
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675045978_base-ball-match_New-York-Giants_Chicago-White-Sox_Comiskey-Park


Polo Grounds
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675045977_base-ball-match_New-York-Giants_crowd-cheering_Giants-win


White Sox win pennant in 1959
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675044710_Chicago-White-Sox_Cleveland-Indians_American-League_White-Sox-wins


and on a sad note - the final game of 1959
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675027990_World-Championship_Los-Angeles-Dodgers_Chicago-White-Sox_Dodgers-win_Comiskey-park





http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1917/YPS_1917.htm

I've heard a rumor that MLB has game 1 of the 1959 World Series. They acquired it from the same source that provided them the 1965 All-Star game. Not sure if it was in good enough condition to air, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed they show it this offseason on MLB Network.

Fenway
11-24-2011, 09:38 AM
I've heard a rumor that MLB has game 1 of the 1959 World Series. They acquired it from the same source that provided them the 1965 All-Star game. Not sure if it was in good enough condition to air, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed they show it this offseason on MLB Network.

It is really sad that NBC erased most World Series games before 1969. For example only 45 seconds exist from 1967 and only because Huntley-Brinkley showed highlights of Lonborg just missing a no-hitter in Game 2.

But it wasn't just sports - very little exists of Johnny Carson's 10 years in New York.

apbaball
11-24-2011, 09:59 AM
It is really sad that NBC erased most World Series games before 1969. For example only 45 seconds exist from 1967 and only because Huntley-Brinkley showed highlights of Lonborg just missing a no-hitter in Game 2.

But it wasn't just sports - very little exists of Johnny Carson's 10 years in New York.

Yes, very unfortunate. There is not much that exists from the 70s as well; only the Sox opener vs Toronto has been preserved.

The good news is there are plenty of audio recordings of radio broadcasts from the 50s-70s and items before 1972 are not subject to copyright laws. The Miley collection which includes radio broadcasts of World Series games from 1934 until the 1970s as well as many regular season games from the 50s-70s will be acquired by the Library of Congress after the owner John Miley passes away. (If the LOC says so about the copyright laws that is good enough for me.) I've picked up quite a few from Miley's store Cooperstownmusic as well as his competitor baseaballtapes and it is very cool listening to the 1959 World Series as well as Sox games from the 50s-70s. Any others out there collect them?

Fenway
11-24-2011, 10:19 AM
Well at the local level (especially with the White Sox) - these stations really could not afford to use tape stock and archive games. NBC doesn't have that excuse.

Boston was an exception as every game televised from 1972 on exists - the Red Sox paid the stations to do it.


Yes, very unfortunate. There is not much that exists from the 70s as well; only the Sox opener vs Toronto has been preserved.

The good news is there are plenty of audio recordings of radio broadcasts from the 50s-70s and items before 1972 are not subject to copyright laws. The Miley collection which includes radio broadcasts of World Series games from 1934 until the 1970s as well as many regular season games from the 50s-70s will be acquired by the Library of Congress after the owner John Miley passes away. (If the LOC says so about the copyright laws that is good enough for me.) I've picked up quite a few from Miley's store Cooperstownmusic as well as his competitor baseaballtapes and it is very cool listening to the 1959 World Series as well as Sox games from the 50s-70s. Any others out there collect them?

TommyJohn
11-24-2011, 10:29 AM
Well at the local level (especially with the White Sox) - these stations really could not afford to use tape stock and archive games. NBC doesn't have that excuse.

Boston was an exception as every game televised from 1972 on exists - the Red Sox paid the stations to do it.

I remember reading that a 1964 White Sox-Red Sox game in Fenway was found and was supposed to be aired on MLB Network, but it never turned up.

apbaball
11-24-2011, 10:39 AM
Well at the local level (especially with the White Sox) - these stations really could not afford to use tape stock and archive games. NBC doesn't have that excuse.

Boston was an exception as every game televised from 1972 on exists - the Red Sox paid the stations to do it.

Really? They have never shown/aired any of them at least from the 70s. After 40 years you begin to wonder what they are saving them for if they sit on a shelf and collect dust. Why save them if you are never going to do anything with them???

Fenway
11-24-2011, 10:46 AM
I remember reading that a 1964 White Sox-Red Sox game in Fenway was found and was supposed to be aired on MLB Network, but it never turned up.

It is going to air on NESN this winter and then MLB later. It was a very tricky restore as very few 2 inch video tape machines still exist.

Tony Conigliaro homered in his first Fenway at bat and Curt Gowdy gushes on air at what a thrill it must be for the local youngster.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1964/B04170BOS1964.htm

However the reason it exists is that Yawkey donated the gate to what would become the JFK Library and many famous entertainers appeared before the game - Carol Channing sang the anthem. Jackie, Caroline, John Jr, Bobby, Teddy and Rose were at the game. Yawkey paid for the tape to give to the Kennedy family.

http://www.brearley.com/shop/images/products_large/p27.jpg

Even with all that - the game only drew 20,000. Baseball was dead in Boston in 1964.

TomBradley72
11-24-2011, 10:52 AM
I've heard that the White Sox lost all or most of their 1970's stuff due to a fire at Channel 44- maybe they could at least recover video of games from the opponent's archives?

LITTLE NELL
11-24-2011, 12:00 PM
It is going to air on NESN this winter and then MLB later. It was a very tricky restore as very few 2 inch video tape machines still exist.

Tony Conigliaro homered in his first Fenway at bat and Curt Gowdy gushes on air at what a thrill it must be for the local youngster.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1964/B04170BOS1964.htm

However the reason it exists is that Yawkey donated the gate to what would become the JFK Library and many famous entertainers appeared before the game - Carol Channing sang the anthem. Jackie, Caroline, John Jr, Bobby, Teddy and Rose were at the game. Yawkey paid for the tape to give to the Kennedy family.

http://www.brearley.com/shop/images/products_large/p27.jpg

Even with all that - the game only drew 20,000. Baseball was dead in Boston in 1964.

20,000 was a good crowd in those days. 1,000,000 for a season was the holy grail and figuring double headers in, most teams had around 71 or so home dates, that averages out to only 14,084 per date.
Up until 1983 when the Sox hit the 2,000,000 mark the most fans ever to show up for a season for the Sox or Cubs was 1,674,000 by the 69 Cubs with the 77 Sox at 1,657,000. The 29 Cubs held the Chicago record for 30 years when they drew 1,485,000, the 60 Sox finally broke that record with 1,644,000.
The Red Sox never drew more than 1,597,000 until the miracle year of 67 when they drew over 1,700,000.

Lip Man 1
11-24-2011, 05:30 PM
Fenway posted that some museum in New England found it and had turned it over to the MLBN for airing.

This was a few years ago.....

Naturally nothing came of it apparently.

Lip

Whitesox029
11-27-2011, 07:38 PM
I just found this thread and noticed something that I can't figure out: at 1:02 of the first video from game 1 in 1917, there's a shot of McGraw returning to the Giants' dugout. In the background, there's a black guy sitting with the Giants players in the dugout. It's hard to tell, but it looks like he's dressed in a bow tie. Anyone know who he might have been that he was allowed in the dugout with the players? 30 years before Jackie Robinson, I'm thinking there's no way could have been anything but an equipment manager.

SI1020
11-27-2011, 07:50 PM
I just found this thread and noticed something that I can't figure out: at 1:02 of the first video from game 1 in 1917, there's a shot of McGraw returning to the Giants' dugout. In the background, there's a black guy sitting with the Giants players in the dugout. It's hard to tell, but it looks like he's dressed in a bow tie. Anyone know who he might have been that he was allowed in the dugout with the players? 30 years before Jackie Robinson, I'm thinking there's no way could have been anything but an equipment manager. That was a hot topic in a yahoo discussion group. One poster and baseball historian "guessed" that it was Giants trainer J.L. Mackall. According to another source the White Sox also had an African American trainer, one William Buckner in that time period.

kba
11-27-2011, 10:01 PM
I've heard that the White Sox lost all or most of their 1970's stuff due to a fire at Channel 44- maybe they could at least recover video of games from the opponent's archives?

I never heard about a fire. I think the game videos simply were never saved in the first place. Videotape was expensive in those days and took a lot of space to store. Both TV44 and the White Sox were low-budget operations, and there weren't any pennant-clinchers or many historic Sox games in the '70's that would have inspired anybody to save tapes for future generations.

apbaball
11-28-2011, 07:30 AM
Fenway posted that some museum in New England found it and had turned it over to the MLBN for airing.

This was a few years ago.....

Naturally nothing came of it apparently.

Lip

So you are saying don't hold my breath. Too bad. A Sox game from the 60s would have very cool to see. The '77 opener against the Jays is the oldest Sox game preserved and something earlier would have been nice.

Fenway
11-28-2011, 08:23 AM
Fenway posted that some museum in New England found it and had turned it over to the MLBN for airing.

This was a few years ago.....

Naturally nothing came of it apparently.

Lip

So you are saying don't hold my breath. Too bad. A Sox game from the 60s would have very cool to see. The '77 opener against the Jays is the oldest Sox game preserved and something earlier would have been nice.

It is going to air on NESN this winter and then MLB later. It was a very tricky restore as very few 2 inch video tape machines still exist.

Tony Conigliaro homered in his first Fenway at bat and Curt Gowdy gushes on air at what a thrill it must be for the local youngster.

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1964/B04170BOS1964.htm

However the reason it exists is that Yawkey donated the gate to what would become the JFK Library and many famous entertainers appeared before the game - Carol Channing sang the anthem. Jackie, Caroline, John Jr, Bobby, Teddy and Rose were at the game. Yawkey paid for the tape to give to the Kennedy family.

http://www.brearley.com/shop/images/products_large/p27.jpg

Even with all that - the game only drew 20,000. Baseball was dead in Boston in 1964.

It will be available after the first of the year.

Lip of all people should know that restoring video from two inch tape is a crapshoot. The big problem is the playback heads spin so quickly it can peel the oxide right off the tape and destroy it - you do not get a second chance. A number of games have been lost because of this.

This tape had to be sent to California where retired engineers of Ampex went to work on it. Unlike say the Game 7 of the 1960 World Series which was a kinescope (film) and could be played back easily - old two inch tapes need to be played on a VTR of the era.

This explains in detail the problem
IFWY2JzrrM4

In any event it was decided that this game would be part of the Fenway 100th Birthday Festival on NESN which will take place in all of 2012.

Lip Man 1
11-28-2011, 11:57 AM
The story I was told from Sox historian Rich Lindberg and others is that when Bill Veeck sold the team to the current group, he felt that since he was the owner all material of that nature regarding the White Sox (i.e. old footage, highlights etc.) belonged to him and he took them.

When I spoke with Mike Veeck, he denied that accusation.

Bob Grim, the Sox director of broadcast operations has told me that the Sox never had much material before the late 70's and neither does MLB. Rich King from WGN-TV told me they don't have much on the Sox before 1983 in the station 'morgue.'

What is a fact is that according to a story in TV Guide from the mid 80's examining the question of why MLB doesn't have historical material for a lot of events was that many stations tossed out all the film they had as they were going to "electronic news gathering" (VHS) equipment in the mid 70's.

WGN-TV was specifically cited as throwing out all of the thousands of reels of film they had shot on the Sox and Cubs in the 1950's when they moved to their new location in 1962. They quoted the former news director as saying that all that film was tossed out into an alley.

Like a previous poster said, back in the day, nobody knew that this stuff would be valuable and at the time it was simply to expensive to build climate controlled warehouses to store all this film.

Unless it is contained in almost perfect conditions it will not last more than five to 10 years, it will simply break down and fall apart.

Sad but true.

Have never heard anything about a fire at Channel 44 destroying material. I also know and Hal Vickery, (Fallin Arches) can confirm this that Nancy Faust does have some material including the TV video of Dick Allen ruining Nolan Ryan's no hit bid in the 9th inning of a game and winning it with a hit.

Lip

apbaball
11-29-2011, 09:26 AM
The story I was told from Sox historian Rich Lindberg and others is that when Bill Veeck sold the team to the current group, he felt that since he was the owner all material of that nature regarding the White Sox (i.e. old footage, highlights etc.) belonged to him and he took them.

When I spoke with Mike Veeck, he denied that accusation.

Bob Grim, the Sox director of broadcast operations has told me that the Sox never had much material before the late 70's and neither does MLB. Rich King from WGN-TV told me they don't have much on the Sox before 1983 in the station 'morgue.'

What is a fact is that according to a story in TV Guide from the mid 80's examining the question of why MLB doesn't have historical material for a lot of events was that many stations tossed out all the film they had as they were going to "electronic news gathering" (VHS) equipment in the mid 70's.

WGN-TV was specifically cited as throwing out all of the thousands of reels of film they had shot on the Sox and Cubs in the 1950's when they moved to their new location in 1962. They quoted the former news director as saying that all that film was tossed out into an alley.

Like a previous poster said, back in the day, nobody knew that this stuff would be valuable and at the time it was simply to expensive to build climate controlled warehouses to store all this film.

Unless it is contained in almost perfect conditions it will not last more than five to 10 years, it will simply break down and fall apart.

Sad but true.

Have never heard anything about a fire at Channel 44 destroying material. I also know and Hal Vickery, (Fallin Arches) can confirm this that Nancy Faust does have some material including the TV video of Dick Allen ruining Nolan Ryan's no hit bid in the 9th inning of a game and winning it with a hit.

Lip

This would mmake a great story if the networks and teams would answer the questions. The answers sound pretty vague. The Sox never had much material before the late 70's and neither does MLB. "Never had much" sounds like a few games. What games are they?
"Rich King from WGN-TV told me they don't have much on the Sox before 1983 in the station 'morgue." Again vague. What specifically do they have before 1983? What do they have from 1983 on? The last question to ask would be what do they plan on doing with them? Collecting dust, really?

Interesting there is almost no video before the 80s but there is a ton of old radio broadcasts preserved especially from the 50, 60s and 70s.

Lip Man 1
11-29-2011, 11:55 AM
Grim's comment is along the lines of having highlights, segments, snippets from games. Not complete games.

King's comment specifically refers to highlights as well not complete games. Most TV stations 'morgue' the nightly game highlights that they use during the newscast for use in the future. (i.e. if a player is traded, signed or if a former player passes away for example...)

That is what they are used for after being shown the night of that particular game.

The reason there are radio broadcasts available is because that was the main format in use for over 40 years basically before TV really became popular. Audio tape requires storage and protection but not to the same degree as film.

Also Bob Grim told me that MLB now requires that a copy of every game be sent to league headquarters for storage.

Lip

Golden Sox
12-02-2011, 08:44 AM
I remember being in the Bards Room at Comiskey Park in the 1977 season and the White Sox were playing replays of there games from that season on their Tvs. I don't know whether or not if Bill Veeck kept the tapes.

Fenway
12-02-2011, 08:50 AM
Bowie Kuhn ordered all games must be archived starting in 1977 - MLB became the custodian and this was the genesis of TWIB.

Kuhn saw what the NFL was doing with NFL Films and wanted baseball to have something in place.

By 1977 - the cost of video tape ( 3/4 inch format) made it easier to do.

MLB and NOT the teams owns the rights to past games.

kba
12-02-2011, 08:39 PM
When Channel 44 gave up the Sox contract at the end of the 1980 season, they broadcast a retrospective of the team's "WSNS years." For the years before 1977, they showed mainly still photographs with just a few video highlights -- most of them from a single 1973 game at Fenway Park.

So even then, when Veeck was still around, WSNS didn't seem to have much in their archives from the early '70's.

tick53
12-03-2011, 10:37 AM
Very Cool...:cool:

apbaball
03-04-2012, 04:30 PM
It will be available after the first of the year.

Lip of all people should know that restoring video from two inch tape is a crapshoot. The big problem is the playback heads spin so quickly it can peel the oxide right off the tape and destroy it - you do not get a second chance. A number of games have been lost because of this.

This tape had to be sent to California where retired engineers of Ampex went to work on it. Unlike say the Game 7 of the 1960 World Series which was a kinescope (film) and could be played back easily - old two inch tapes need to be played on a VTR of the era.

This explains in detail the problem
IFWY2JzrrM4

In any event it was decided that this game would be part of the Fenway 100th Birthday Festival on NESN which will take place in all of 2012.

Any word on this? I would think they would show it before the season starts. Most of these networks only show the classics during the offseason.

DoItForDanPasqua
03-04-2012, 04:47 PM
I just found this thread and noticed something that I can't figure out: at 1:02 of the first video from game 1 in 1917, there's a shot of McGraw returning to the Giants' dugout. In the background, there's a black guy sitting with the Giants players in the dugout. It's hard to tell, but it looks like he's dressed in a bow tie. Anyone know who he might have been that he was allowed in the dugout with the players? 30 years before Jackie Robinson, I'm thinking there's no way could have been anything but an equipment manager.

I was about to post that myself. For a time with plenty of racism, John McGraw was well ahead his time. He regularly consulted with Negro League mangers such as Rube Foster and even tried to sneak a black player onto his team by saying that he was an Indian.

apbaball
04-01-2013, 02:36 PM
It will be available after the first of the year.

Lip of all people should know that restoring video from two inch tape is a crapshoot. The big problem is the playback heads spin so quickly it can peel the oxide right off the tape and destroy it - you do not get a second chance. A number of games have been lost because of this.

This tape had to be sent to California where retired engineers of Ampex went to work on it. Unlike say the Game 7 of the 1960 World Series which was a kinescope (film) and could be played back easily - old two inch tapes need to be played on a VTR of the era.

This explains in detail the problem
IFWY2JzrrM4

In any event it was decided that this game would be part of the Fenway 100th Birthday Festival on NESN which will take place in all of 2012.

Unfortunately, this (the 64 White Sox-Red Sox home opener in Boston) never aired.

I have not seen Fenway on this board in over a year to ask him what happened.

Is he around?

RKMeibalane
04-01-2013, 03:33 PM
Unfortunately, this (the 64 White Sox-Red Sox home opener in Boston) never aired.

I have not seen Fenway on this board in over a year to ask him what happened.

Is he around?

This (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=134988&highlight=Fenway) should answer your question.