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doublem23
11-04-2011, 07:42 AM
Passan breaks down all the top free agents and has a little one or two-liner about them. Ranks Buehrle the #12 FA on the market and notes that he believes he's a shoe-in to resign with the Sox now that the Cardinals have no room at the inn.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-passan_ultimate_free_agent_tracker_baseball_110211

dwitt76
11-04-2011, 07:52 AM
:praying: Please come back Mark.

chisoxfanatic
11-04-2011, 08:15 AM
I hope so, but he'll have to take considerably less since Kenny is bound to shed payroll.

DonnieDarko
11-04-2011, 09:07 AM
I hope so, but he'll have to take considerably less since Kenny is bound to shed payroll.

This, +1. Unfortunately, it looks like we're not going to know anything one way or another until the minor labor disputes between ownership and the players is sorted out.

Domeshot17
11-04-2011, 09:39 AM
I didn't read it (I cancelled my Insider subscription) but Olney has a big headline that the market for Burls is strong. Anyone read this and able to elaborate?

kittle42
11-04-2011, 09:57 AM
The Sox hopefully have 56 cents.

RowanDye
11-04-2011, 10:02 AM
I didn't read it (I cancelled my Insider subscription) but Olney has a big headline that the market for Burls is strong. Anyone read this and able to elaborate?

That article makes it sound like there's a lot of interest, but the only real source is his agent Jeff Berry.

"Berry (Buehrle's agent) expected that Buehrle would have a lot of options this fall, but even in light of that, he said, he has been surprised by the volume of interest. Buehrle would be a nice fit for the Yankees, as a rotation stabilizer who would fit well in their ballpark, or for the Cubs, or many other teams"

The article goes on to quote several scouts, etc. that mostly seem to think that Mark is the best pitcher on the market because of reliability and the perceived lower investment relative to CJ Wilson.

I think it depends a lot on the Yu Darvish situation. If the Yankees don't get Darvish, I suspect they will sign CJ Wilson. Then the Rangers would seem to be in play for Buehrle. I'm also assuming there's no ****ing way that Buehrle ends up a sCrub.

CLUBHOUSE KID
11-04-2011, 10:06 AM
That article makes it sound like there's a lot of interest, but the only real source is his agent Jeff Berry.

"Berry (Buehrle's agent) expected that Buehrle would have a lot of options this fall, but even in light of that, he said, he has been surprised by the volume of interest. Buehrle would be a nice fit for the Yankees, as a rotation stabilizer who would fit well in their ballpark, or for the Cubs, or many other teams"

The article goes on to quote several scouts, etc. that mostly seem to think that Mark is the best pitcher on the market because of reliability and the perceived lower investment relative to CJ Wilson.

I think it depends a lot on the Yu Darvish situation. If the Yankees don't get Darvish, I suspect they will sign CJ Wilson. Then the Rangers would seem to be in play for Buehrle. I'm also assuming there's no ****ing way that Buehrle ends up a sCrub.

Yankees would sign Buhrle before CJ.

RowanDye
11-04-2011, 10:42 AM
Yankees would sign Buhrle before CJ.

Do you really think Buehrle would want to live and play in NY though?

russ99
11-04-2011, 12:25 PM
I didn't read it (I cancelled my Insider subscription) but Olney has a big headline that the market for Burls is strong. Anyone read this and able to elaborate?

Olney is a tool of the agents. Take anything he says in regards to FA with a grain of salt, since many of his reports are aimed at "Boras-ing up" the bidding.

KenBerryGrab
11-04-2011, 12:46 PM
The Yanks have hammered Buehrle over the years, and as such I think they have a lower opinion of him than other teams might. I know their fans do.

Oblong
11-04-2011, 12:52 PM
I've been on a "Tigers should sign Buehrle and trade Scherzer or Porcello" bandwagon for awhile now. But based on what I read here about the guy it sounds like it's either White Sox, Cardinals, or retirement.

Foulke You
11-04-2011, 01:28 PM
I hope so, but he'll have to take considerably less since Kenny is bound to shed payroll.
He would only have to take less in year 1 of the deal. The contract could be back loaded since Peavy's massive contract expires after 2012.

Paulwny
11-04-2011, 01:39 PM
Do you really think Buehrle would want to live and play in NY though?


He only has to play there, most of the married players live oputside of NYC.

Zisk77
11-04-2011, 02:25 PM
He only has to play there, most of the married players live oputside of NYC.

Yes, but the Mark would have to be away from his family for most of the baseball season. Mark is contemplating an early retirement because he wants to see his children grow up. Therefore, the yankees and destinations not named St.Louis or Chicago are not very likely for Mark.

TomBradley72
11-04-2011, 02:40 PM
You never know with Buehrle- he may decide a 2 year deal with a chance to get another ring (NYY) is worth it-

Paulwny
11-04-2011, 02:53 PM
Yes, but the Mark would have to be away from his family for most of the baseball season. Mark is contemplating an early retirement because he wants to see his children grow up. Therefore, the yankees and destinations not named St.Louis or Chicago are not very likely for Mark.

I may be wrong, but I believe most of the married yankee players live in NJ and Conn.

thomas35forever
11-04-2011, 02:54 PM
Come back, Mark!

Zisk77
11-04-2011, 03:06 PM
Yes, but the Mark would have to be away from his family for most of the baseball season. Mark is contemplating an early retirement because he wants to see his children grow up. Therefore, the yankees and destinations not named St.Louis or Chicago are not very likely for Mark.[/QUOTE

I may be wrong, but I believe most of the married yankee players live in NJ and Conn.


Yes, I get that. But Mark has homes in Chicago and St.Louis. He stated in the past he didn't want to go elsewhere, he'd rather retire. Sure, for bargaining purposes he isn't limiting himself now. But, It seems pretty apparent that he still wants to stay in one of those 2 places.

Paulwny
11-04-2011, 03:23 PM
Yes, I get that. But Mark has homes in Chicago and St.Louis. He stated in the past he didn't want to go elsewhere, he'd rather retire. Sure, for bargaining purposes he isn't limiting himself now. But, It seems pretty apparent that he still wants to stay in one of those 2 places.

So he sells his Chicago House purchases one in NJ and keeps his St Louis home.

slavko
11-04-2011, 03:31 PM
If other pricey starting pitcher talent is traded for prospects, and it will be, he may well wind up back here. Nothing that hasn't been opined at WSI before.

palehosepub
11-04-2011, 05:01 PM
I worry about KC, it would be a smart move for them to have a leader like MB around all that young pitching the Royals have and KC seems like a city that Mark would be comfortable. I hope I am wrong

AZChiSoxFan
11-04-2011, 06:47 PM
The Sox hopefully have 56 cents.

:smile: Well Played!

Whitesox029
11-06-2011, 04:38 PM
You never know with Buehrle- he may decide a 2 year deal with a chance to get another ring (NYY) is worth it-
Guys that already have rings don't generally go to the Yankees for the purpose of getting another one. They go there (and to Boston) because they're offered absurd contracts (in money and years) that no one else can compete with. Mark doesn't strike me as the type that would operate that way.
As for the Cubs, his signing there would be even more baffling than his signing with the Yankees, given that the Cubs are several years from contending. He's a born Cardinals fan who's spent his entire career with the White Sox. He'd be more likely to sign with a Japanese team. Mark Buehrle is the anti-Cub.

BleacherBandit
11-06-2011, 04:43 PM
Guys that already have rings don't generally go to the Yankees for the purpose of getting another one. They go there (and to Boston) because they're offered absurd contracts (in money and years) that no one else can compete with. Mark doesn't strike me as the type that would operate that way.
As for the Cubs, his signing there would be even more baffling than his signing with the Yankees, given that the Cubs are several years from contending. He's a born Cardinals fan who's spent his entire career with the White Sox. He'd be more likely to sign with a Japanese team. Mark Buehrle is the anti-Cub.

Buehrle's a man of sentiments, or so I've heard. If he's offered a contract with the Cardinals, I'd expect him to take it given they'll be in the thick of contention next year (provided Pujols comes back). These considerations (which would be very convincing to me if I were a free-agent pitcher) are ancillary to the fact that Buehrle is from Missouri. I don't think it's out of the question that Buehrle leaves us next season.

Brian26
11-06-2011, 05:07 PM
Guys that already have rings don't generally go to the Yankees for the purpose of getting another one. They go there (and to Boston) because they're offered absurd contracts (in money and years) that no one else can compete with. Mark doesn't strike me as the type that would operate that way.
As for the Cubs, his signing there would be even more baffling than his signing with the Yankees, given that the Cubs are several years from contending. He's a born Cardinals fan who's spent his entire career with the White Sox. He'd be more likely to sign with a Japanese team. Mark Buehrle is the anti-Cub.

Disagree. He's established in the Chicago suburbs. He likes to bat and has mentioned he'd like the challenge of playing in the National League. It's not absurdly out of the question, if the Sox make a disrespectful offer and the Cardinals don't have room for him, that the Cubs could sneak in.

He's not going to Japan, where he would not see his kids for several months at a time.

His wife mentioned that any team is a possibility since they would just look to find a summer home in a nice suburb outside of any major city, so this doesn't rule out New York or Texas.

As long as the Sox don't disrespect him like they did with Ventura 13 years ago, he should be back.

PaleHoser
11-07-2011, 01:52 PM
If I'm a pitcher, there's no way I sign to play in Texas. That park is a hitter's paradise.

DirtySox
11-07-2011, 04:09 PM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
To repeat from other day: #Marlins' top priority is adding LH starter: Wilson, Buehrle. Not to say they won't dabble in other areas. #MLB
8 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


jcrasnick Jerry Crasnick
If things don't work out with C.J. Wilson, #Rangers also expect to be involved in the Mark Buehrle hunt. #paralleltracks
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
11-07-2011, 10:29 PM
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Sources: #Marlins will meet with Buehrle on Tuesday, Reyes on Wednesday and Cespedes on Thursday. #MLB
54 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Moses_Scurry
11-07-2011, 10:35 PM
On XM this morning, they were ranking Buerhle ahead of all FA pitchers including CJ Wilson, mainly because of his consistency and the fact that"you know what you are going to get". They had the Yankees as a major player for him.

I am going to choose to bury my head in the sand and assume that Mark will be reporting with the Sox pitchers and catchers in February. My confidence is definitely waning.

DirtySox
11-07-2011, 10:45 PM
On XM this morning, they were ranking Buerhle ahead of all FA pitchers including CJ Wilson, mainly because of his consistency and the fact that"you know what you are going to get". They had the Yankees as a major player for him.

I am going to choose to bury my head in the sand and assume that Mark will be reporting with the Sox pitchers and catchers in February. My confidence is definitely waning.

I'd be scared of the Rangers if they lose CJ Wilson. They have the money and a team that will continue to be a force. A pretty desirable destination I'd imagine.

balke
11-08-2011, 05:50 AM
How is the Cards rotation "set"?

Carpenter, Buehrle, Wainwright, Garcia, Lohse sounds like the future in St. Louis to me. I doubt they want Edwin back. Either cut/trade/bench Westbrook.

doublem23
11-08-2011, 08:13 AM
How is the Cards rotation "set"?

Carpenter, Buehrle, Wainwright, Garcia, Lohse sounds like the future in St. Louis to me. I doubt they want Edwin back. Either cut/trade/bench Westbrook.

That's a lot easier said than done when you owe the guy another $9.5 million.

SaltyPretzel
11-08-2011, 08:35 AM
Buehrle meeting with Marlins today.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-report-marlins-to-meet-with-free-agent-buehrle-20111107,0,2275485.story

Domeshot17
11-08-2011, 08:41 AM
I guess it is funny, does anyone see any signs of Mark coming back? No talk of an extension during the year, none before free agency, meeting with other teams, a lot of speculation on us rebuilding and cutting payroll. Plus we already have 2 LHP in the rotation. Just nothing about this is adding up to Burls coming back.

DonnieDarko
11-08-2011, 09:09 AM
I guess it is funny, does anyone see any signs of Mark coming back? No talk of an extension during the year, none before free agency, meeting with other teams, a lot of speculation on us rebuilding and cutting payroll. Plus we already have 2 LHP in the rotation. Just nothing about this is adding up to Burls coming back.

I hope to be able to serve you a nice, hot dish of crow, but I fear that you're 100% correct.

Law11
11-08-2011, 09:37 AM
I guess it is funny, does anyone see any signs of Mark coming back? No talk of an extension during the year, none before free agency, meeting with other teams, a lot of speculation on us rebuilding and cutting payroll. Plus we already have 2 LHP in the rotation. Just nothing about this is adding up to Burls coming back.


It does if Kenny trades Danks to rebuild the system and has Sale and Burls in the rotation.

soxinem1
11-08-2011, 09:46 AM
I guess it is funny, does anyone see any signs of Mark coming back? No talk of an extension during the year, none before free agency, meeting with other teams, a lot of speculation on us rebuilding and cutting payroll. Plus we already have 2 LHP in the rotation. Just nothing about this is adding up to Burls coming back.

I kind of agree, even though I thought for sure PK and AJ were gone last year under a very similar scenario.

If JR indeed regards Buehrle as one of his 'kids', maybe he gets involved, however the cloud of doom really seems to be hovering over this team right now, and it really might depend on how MB feels and what vibes he gets about/from the White Sox.

Needless to say, meeting with FLA/MIA is not a good thing, as I could see WAS and even TEX offering him nice deals as well if he decides to lift his geographical boundaries for his 2012 destination.

Should rebuilding really be the strategy for this organization, why would MB want to stay, so he can have a 9-16 record each of the next two years?

I say if he goes, he goes to a team he judges to have a legit shot to win, and in an environment he would feel comfortable in, with a pitching coach and manager he would have to feel equally willing to accept.

Should he stay, it is more than likely because KW/JR will have convinced him they will be tweaking and not necessarily tearing the team down, which will not happen anyway.

This is a real tough call. :scratch:

It does if Kenny trades Danks to rebuild the system and has Sale and Burls in the rotation.

Yes and no. If rebuilding the system is the ultimate goal, you will need $$$$ too for signing draft picks. If KW thinks he will restock the farm system through trades only, something he has never been able to do, then this will be a long, dry next 2-4 seasons.

Danks healthy is better than Buehrle healthy at this point, however I keep seeing Danks in another uniform by 2013 anyway. I always saw him returning to TEX eventually for some reason........

DirtySox
11-08-2011, 10:41 AM
Should rebuilding really be the strategy for this organization, why would MB want to stay, so he can have a 9-16 record each of the next two years?

I say if he goes, he goes to a team he judges to have a legit shot to win, and in an environment he would feel comfortable in, with a pitching coach and manager he would have to feel equally willing to accept.


Agreed. Which is why I hope Mark signs elsewhere. Even with MB I don't see this team as competitive this year or next. Also, everyone's favorite Phil Rogers weighs in.

ChiTribRogers Phil Rogers
Reports say Mark Buehrle starts FA process w/trip to Miami. He's in demand, and all but gone from #whitesox.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

MeteorsSox4367
11-08-2011, 10:42 AM
In USA Today last week, Paul White listed the top 18 free agent pitchers and nowhere was Buehrle mentioned. White's list had Freddy Garcia in it, but no Buehrle.

What I found interesting as well was when analyzing the position players, White had the Sox signing Jamey Carroll and Kosuke Fukodome. His comment about Carroll was that "the White Sox have a lot of infield holes." As for Fukudome, White wrote that "he would be an upgrade over Juan Pierre."

Where are the infield holes? Alexei is set at short, Beckham may have struggled with the bat, but his glove work was very good this season and Carroll is not an upgrade over Morel at third. I know some people weren't crazy about Morel, but I like the kid a lot and think he can be a solid major league third baseman.

As for Fukudome, where would he play? Unless Quentin gets traded, he plays right with everyone's favorite underachiever in center and perhaps DeAza in left. I'd much rather have DeAza in left than Fukudome.

kittle42
11-08-2011, 11:00 AM
That's a lot easier said than done when you owe the guy another $9.5 million.

Come on, dubs, we all learned how easy it is from many learned posters to cut any Sox player last season, or simply send them to the minors!

doublem23
11-08-2011, 11:18 AM
ChiTribRogers Phil Rogers
Reports say Mark Buehrle starts FA process w/trip to Miami. He's in demand, and all but gone from #whitesox.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

This is the same idiot that couldn't figure out how to use Google and look up Buehrle's contract earlier in the year so if his opinion is that he's as good as gone, then we'll see you in South Side pinstripes in 2012 next year, #56. :gulp:

Domeshot17
11-08-2011, 11:44 AM
I hope to be able to serve you a nice, hot dish of crow, but I fear that you're 100% correct.

I honestly hope you are right. I would love to have him back, but just nothing about the situation is adding up to me.

cards press box
11-08-2011, 11:45 AM
Agreed. Which is why I hope Mark signs elsewhere. Even with MB I don't see this team as competitive this year or next. Also, everyone's favorite Phil Rogers weighs in.

ChiTribRogers Phil Rogers
Reports say Mark Buehrle starts FA process w/trip to Miami. He's in demand, and all but gone from #whitesox.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

If Buerhle signs with the Marlins (or even if he doesn't but is in demand with other clubs), then I suppose the Sox will offer him arbitration just to make sure that they receive some compensation. If my memory is correct, I believe that Buerhle is a Type B free agent.

DirtySox
11-08-2011, 12:03 PM
If Buerhle signs with the Marlins (or even if he doesn't but is in demand with other clubs), then I suppose the Sox will offer him arbitration just to make sure that they receive some compensation. If my memory is correct, I believe that Buerhle is a Type B free agent.

Correct, he is a type B. Absolutely he will be offered arbitration. Sandwich pick ahoy.

soxinem1
11-08-2011, 01:29 PM
What I found interesting as well was when analyzing the position players, White had the Sox signing Jamey Carroll and Kosuke Fukodome. His comment about Carroll was that "the White Sox have a lot of infield holes." As for Fukudome, White wrote that "he would be an upgrade over Juan Pierre."

As for Fukudome, where would he play? Unless Quentin gets traded, he plays right with everyone's favorite underachiever in center and perhaps DeAza in left. I'd much rather have DeAza in left than Fukudome.

Jamey Carroll is one of the most curiously over-hyped players this off season.

One, he's 35. Two, he has NO RBI capabilities, power, or speed. His only value is his versatility, and who needs a $4-5 million utility INF. Lillibridge is way better than Carroll.

And why would we want another slow-footed, over-hyped OF. Talk about a major disappointment. I'm glad Fukudome said Fuku-White Sox back when he was signed by CHC.

I'd go with Rios in RF, D'Aza in CF, and Tank in LF unless an upgrade is possible.

Neither of these guys mentioned are an upgrade.

DirtySox
11-08-2011, 01:30 PM
Red Sox, Rangers, and Yankees all interested in Mark. Rosenthal also notes that the competition to sign him is intense.

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/marlins_blue_jays_pursuing_starters/7951378?new_post=true

MinnySoxFan
11-08-2011, 02:03 PM
That's no bueno

DumpJerry
11-08-2011, 02:57 PM
In USA Today last week, Paul White listed the top 18 free agent pitchers and nowhere was Buehrle mentioned. White's list had Freddy Garcia in it, but no Buehrle.

What I found interesting as well was when analyzing the position players, White had the Sox signing Jamey Carroll and Kosuke Fukodome. His comment about Carroll was that "the White Sox have a lot of infield holes." As for Fukudome, White wrote that "he would be an upgrade over Juan Pierre."

Where are the infield holes? Alexei is set at short, Beckham may have struggled with the bat, but his glove work was very good this season and Carroll is not an upgrade over Morel at third. I know some people weren't crazy about Morel, but I like the kid a lot and think he can be a solid major league third baseman.

As for Fukudome, where would he play? Unless Quentin gets traded, he plays right with everyone's favorite underachiever in center and perhaps DeAza in left. I'd much rather have DeAza in left than Fukudome.
This is why I only read stories about who has actually signed a contract. The speculation is usually off by 90% or so and is just a waste of time to read.

MeteorsSox4367
11-08-2011, 03:17 PM
This is why I only read stories about who has actually signed a contract. The speculation is usually off by 90% or so and is just a waste of time to read.

Agreed, but it is November and I was in need of some baseball information to help me through a busy day at work. Plus, Paul White is somewhat reputable.

asindc
11-08-2011, 03:40 PM
Agreed, but it is November and I was in need of some baseball information to help me through a busy day at work. Plus, Paul White is somewhat reputable.

I listen to Paul White on radio sometimes, as he co-hosts a weekly in-season baseball program here. White is certainly a good baseball source, but he knows comparatively next-to-nothing about teams not in the AL or NL East, unless the players, coaches, or executives have eastern ties.

Tragg
11-08-2011, 04:54 PM
It just saddens me that we'll pay $3.7 for a mediocre middle reliever, but we don't sign Sox icon MB. I realize the numbers are vastly different, but still, $3.7 is excessive for a team supposedly on a budget. Also, isn't the compensation for them the same? We'd get a type B pick for the reliever, too?
the 3.7 could probably be used to plug other holes on the team or bulk up the bench
The other thing about signing MB, is it probably means we don't trade Danks and he will leave after this year.

WhiteSox5187
11-08-2011, 05:09 PM
It just saddens me that we'll pay $3.7 for a mediocre middle reliever, but we don't sign Sox icon MB. I realize the numbers are vastly different, but still, $3.7 is excessive for a team supposedly on a budget. Also, isn't the compensation for them the same? We'd get a type B pick for the reliever, too?
the 3.7 could probably be used to plug other holes on the team or bulk up the bench
The other thing about signing MB, is it probably means we don't trade Danks and he will leave after this year.

I have lost all faith in Kenny. I don't think the front office has a clue what to do with this team.

PalehosePlanet
11-08-2011, 05:26 PM
I have lost all faith in Kenny. I don't think the front office has a clue what to do with this team.

Let's at least give it until Feb 1st, 2012 before we lose faith.

Also, I love Mark, but if some team is willing to give him a similar deal to the one that just expired (4/56) then they'll be overpaying, IMO.

KMcMahon817
11-08-2011, 05:59 PM
It just saddens me that we'll pay $3.7 for a mediocre middle reliever, but we don't sign Sox icon MB. I realize the numbers are vastly different, but still, $3.7 is excessive for a team supposedly on a budget. Also, isn't the compensation for them the same? We'd get a type B pick for the reliever, too?
the 3.7 could probably be used to plug other holes on the team or bulk up the bench
The other thing about signing MB, is it probably means we don't trade Danks and he will leave after this year.

Frasor has trade value. Just because they picked up his option, does not mean he will be on the Opening Day roster. I would like to believe that KW at least has some legitimate reason for picking up the option...my guess is that either he or Crain would be moved. Or, maybe it is just to strengthen the overall pen if/when Thornton is dealt. The move was puzzling, but it's tough to judge a move until all the dominoes have fallen.

Tragg
11-08-2011, 06:00 PM
Frasor has trade value..

At that salary for a back of the pen pitcher?

cards press box
11-08-2011, 06:07 PM
At that salary for a back of the pen pitcher?

Yes, he does. Frasor didn't have a great second half with the Sox but has been a steady reliever in the late innings for the past few years. If the Sox put him on the trade block, teams would be interested.

KMcMahon817
11-08-2011, 06:14 PM
Yes, he does. Frasor didn't have a great second half with the Sox but has been a steady reliever in the late innings for the past few years. If the Sox put him on the trade block, teams would be interested.

What he said.

Lip Man 1
11-08-2011, 06:35 PM
Just for clarification, Phil Rogers got his contract info on Mark Buehrle and the "out clause / salary increase" from someone who should know, since he helped write it...Rick Hahn.

Lip

Brian26
11-08-2011, 07:17 PM
Let's at least give it until Feb 1st, 2012 before we lose faith.

Also, I love Mark, but if some team is willing to give him a similar deal to the one that just expired (4/56) then they'll be overpaying, IMO.

I think Buehrle's worth $14 million a year for four years, easily. He's also worth more to the Sox than other teams.

DSpivack
11-08-2011, 07:23 PM
I think Buehrle's worth $14 million a year for four years, easily. He's also worth more to the Sox than other teams.

It seems like he's now the #1 free agent pitcher on the market. I think he'll easily get more than $14 million/year.

palehozenychicty
11-08-2011, 08:08 PM
It seems like he's now the #1 free agent pitcher on the market. I think he'll easily get more than $14 million/year.

Indeed. I love Burls, but he'd be a fool to not even seriously consider a market value contract. He's better than CJ Wilson, and teams know that, despite his age.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

ohiosoxfan
11-09-2011, 08:40 AM
If he does go (and I certainly DON'T want him to go), I really hope it is to an NL club (not the Scrubs), since he has such a great interleague record, I would be curious to see if he could win 20-25 games in that league. I also don't want the Sox to play against him.

SephClone89
11-09-2011, 08:44 AM
If he does go (and I certainly DON'T want him to go), I really hope it is to an NL club (not the Scrubs), since he has such a great interleague record, I would be curious to see if he could win 20-25 games in that league. I also don't want the Sox to play against him.

Uh, doubt it.

kittle42
11-09-2011, 08:45 AM
I would be curious to see if he could win 20-25 games in that league.

He can't. The Sox overall have a great interleague record in Mark's tenure, as does the AL. Unless he's getting an AL lineup behind him, he's not going to turn into Cy Young.

shes
11-09-2011, 04:49 PM
I think Buehrle's worth $14 million a year for four years, easily. He's also worth more to the Sox than other teams.

$14M . . . yikes. I don't want any part of that for a pitcher like Buehrle (and I love Buehrle). If that's what it takes, let him go and hold on to Danks and TCQ. We've got the arms to fill his spot in the rotation.

WhiteSox5187
11-09-2011, 05:30 PM
$14M . . . yikes. I don't want any part of that for a pitcher like Buehrle (and I love Buehrle). If that's what it takes, let him go and hold on to Danks and TCQ. We've got the arms to fill his spot in the rotation.

I would agree that $14 mil is overpaying but we don't have anyone currently on our roster who can step up and pitch 200+ innings, win 10-15 games with an ERA of about 3.50.

A. Cavatica
11-09-2011, 07:22 PM
I would agree that $14 mil is overpaying but we don't have anyone currently on our roster who can step up and pitch 200+ innings, win 10-15 games with an ERA of about 3.50.

I love Mark, but his days of winning 15 are over unless he goes to a team that can really hit.

WhiteSox5187
11-09-2011, 08:01 PM
I love Mark, but his days of winning 15 are over unless he goes to a team that can really hit.

I don't think it's out of the question for a guy who throws 200 innings and has a 3.5 ERA to win 15 games if he had a consistent offense. It's not like he has to go to a team that leads the league in offense to have a shot at winning 15. If he was on a team that was just mediocre in offense he could have won fifteen this year.

Tragg
11-09-2011, 08:58 PM
$14M . . . yikes. I don't want any part of that for a pitcher like Buehrle (and I love Buehrle). If that's what it takes, let him go and hold on to Danks and TCQ. We've got the arms to fill his spot in the rotation.

Then we don't get any infusion of young players and we're sure to lose Danks at the end of the season. And who are these arms to fill his spot - I see several ceiling 4th starter arms (and probably 5th starter).

A. Cavatica
11-09-2011, 10:01 PM
I don't think it's out of the question for a guy who throws 200 innings and has a 3.5 ERA to win 15 games if he had a consistent offense. It's not like he has to go to a team that leads the league in offense to have a shot at winning 15. If he was on a team that was just mediocre in offense he could have won fifteen this year.

He's won 15 once in the last six seasons. He was at his best this year with the six-man giving him an extra day of rest. I think he pretty much does have to go to a team that leads the league in offense to have a shot.

WhiteSox5187
11-09-2011, 10:08 PM
He's won 15 once in the last six seasons. He was at his best this year with the six-man giving him an extra day of rest. I think he pretty much does have to go to a team that leads the league in offense to have a shot.

Well he lost two games 2-1 and 1-0 (including one were Thornton blew a save) so a better offense would have gotten him 15 wins this year and lost three by one run in 2009 (being shut down by the likes of Scott Kazmir and Jeff Karstens when Bobby blew a save against Pittsburgh). He's not THAT far off from winning fifteen.

gr8mexico
11-10-2011, 09:30 AM
Mark Buehrle has told the White Sox that he will not accept a hometown discount to stay in Chicago.
http://rotoworld.com/player/mlb/3074/mark-buehrle

doublem23
11-10-2011, 09:46 AM
Mark Buehrle has told the White Sox that he will not accept a hometown discount to stay in Chicago.
http://rotoworld.com/player/mlb/3074/mark-buehrle

Source: Joe Cowley

kittle42
11-10-2011, 09:52 AM
Source: Joe Cowley

Seriously. Why even keep reading after that name pops up?

Jerko
11-10-2011, 10:00 AM
Seriously. Why even keep reading after that name pops up?

Especially since the Marlins are in the discussion.

shes
11-10-2011, 11:10 AM
I would agree that $14 mil is overpaying but we don't have anyone currently on our roster who can step up and pitch 200+ innings, win 10-15 games with an ERA of about 3.50.

Danks had a down year, but his numbers from 2008 to 2010 certainly prove he's capable of that type of production.

palehosepub
11-10-2011, 04:38 PM
I always thought that a fair deal for both sides would be to offer Mark the same deal as Konerko - about $37.5 mill over 3 years. He may get a bit more on the open market but my guess is that would be enough to keep him and it reflects fair value. I dont think MB wants 4 years,,

KMcMahon817
11-10-2011, 10:01 PM
I always thought that a fair deal for both sides would be to offer Mark the same deal as Konerko - about $37.5 mill over 3 years. He may get a bit more on the open market but my guess is that would be enough to keep him and it reflects fair value. I dont think MB wants 4 years,,

I love MB as much as anyone, but at that price, the SOX are just better off using that money to keep Danks and Floyd.

ChicagoG19
11-11-2011, 02:13 PM
I love MB as much as anyone, but at that price, the SOX are just better off using that money to keep Danks and Floyd.

Agreed. Burls is currently my favorite player, but we shouldn't overpay to keep him at the expense of Danks and Floyd.

gr8mexico
11-11-2011, 04:11 PM
I always thought that a fair deal for both sides would be to offer Mark the same deal as Konerko - about $37.5 mill over 3 years. He may get a bit more on the open market but my guess is that would be enough to keep him and it reflects fair value. I dont think MB wants 4 years,,
For that type of money I would like to see the Sox invest it on the Cuban prospect Yoenis Cespedes

KenBerryGrab
11-11-2011, 04:16 PM
For that type of money I would like to see the Sox invest it on the Cuban prospect Yoenis Cespedes

He'll cost more than that.

soxinem1
11-11-2011, 04:46 PM
He'll cost more than that.

Let some other suckers pay for him then.

Twin Killing
11-11-2011, 04:48 PM
In USA Today last week, Paul White listed the top 18 free agent pitchers and nowhere was Buehrle mentioned. White's list had Freddy Garcia in it, but no Buehrle.

What I found interesting as well was when analyzing the position players, White had the Sox signing Jamey Carroll and Kosuke Fukodome. His comment about Carroll was that "the White Sox have a lot of infield holes." As for Fukudome, White wrote that "he would be an upgrade over Juan Pierre."

Where are the infield holes? Alexei is set at short, Beckham may have struggled with the bat, but his glove work was very good this season and Carroll is not an upgrade over Morel at third. I know some people weren't crazy about Morel, but I like the kid a lot and think he can be a solid major league third baseman.

As for Fukudome, where would he play? Unless Quentin gets traded, he plays right with everyone's favorite underachiever in center and perhaps DeAza in left. I'd much rather have DeAza in left than Fukudome.

This guy's all over it. Burly not in the top 18? Also, Carroll is apparently headed to the twinks. No mention of the Sox having any interest if Crasnick's info is correct.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/s...op-source-says (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/story/_/id/7221044/minnesota-twins-deal-jamey-carroll-shortstop-source-says)

DirtySox
11-14-2011, 07:39 PM
GM meetings start tomorrow in Milwaukee for what it's worth.


MDGonzales Mark Gonzales
KW sounded less than lukewarm on the prospects of Buehrle returning.
7 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


ESPNChiSox Doug Padilla
KW tried his best to sound optimistic on Buehrle. Didn't sound good though.
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

mzh
11-14-2011, 07:57 PM
GM meetings start tomorrow in Milwaukee for what it's worth.
If he can't bring back Buehrle because he has $100 million tied up in Alex Rios and Adam Dunn, I am ****ing done with this organization. Either compete or don't compete, but don't feed us this "we don't rebuild" bull****.

DirtySox
11-14-2011, 07:57 PM
CST_soxvan Daryl Van Schouwen
Williams on Buehrle had pessimistic, realistic feel: "There’s a time for everyone to come. There’s a time for everyone to go.''
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
11-14-2011, 08:01 PM
Either compete or don't compete, but don't feed us this "we don't rebuild" bull****.

Those are my sentiments, even if not popular. I absolutely loathe being in between. Either prepare for the future by making some drastic changes, or shore up the massive holes on this team. I fear for some half-assed trading of Danks, Floyd, and Quentin, just so we can resign Mark. The team isn't going to get better that way. Treading water.

WhiteSox5187
11-14-2011, 08:20 PM
Those are my sentiments, even if not popular. I absolutely loathe being in between. Either prepare for the future by making some drastic changes, or shore up the massive holes on this team. I fear for some half-assed trading of Danks, Floyd, and Quentin, just so we can resign Mark. The team isn't going to get better that way. Treading water.

I don't think that the Sox are going to trade Danks, Floyd or Quentin for the purpose of re-signing Buehrle. The problem is that we are going to be stuck in between because no one is going to take Dunn, Rios or Peavy. Kenny has saddled this team with so many bad contracts that we are going to be in between for awhile.

thomas35forever
11-14-2011, 09:29 PM
CST_soxvan Daryl Van Schouwen
Williams on Buehrle had pessimistic, realistic feel: "There’s a time for everyone to come. There’s a time for everyone to go.''
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
:(:

Tragg
11-14-2011, 09:38 PM
Those are my sentiments, even if not popular. I absolutely loathe being in between. Either prepare for the future by making some drastic changes, or shore up the massive holes on this team. I fear for some half-assed trading of Danks, Floyd, and Quentin, just so we can resign Mark. The team isn't going to get better that way. Treading water.

We probably need to trade Danks and quentin, though, regardless of MB. But I pray they aren't half-ass trades.

I don't understand the point of trading our now soon to be staff ace, Floyd.

WhiteSox5187
11-14-2011, 10:28 PM
CST_soxvan Daryl Van Schouwen
Williams on Buehrle had pessimistic, realistic feel: "There’s a time for everyone to come. There’s a time for everyone to go.''
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Certainly an interesting statement as Kenny has probably stuck around a little past his time to leave.

Hitmen77
11-15-2011, 08:13 AM
Certainly an interesting statement as Kenny has probably stuck around a little past his time to leave.

Agreed. Kenny put the Sox in this hole with the Dunn and Rios acquisitions and the failure of the farm system to produce much in the way of talent. The "under the radar"/scrap heap acquisition plan isn't a long term plan for success.

I know some people will defend Kenny by saying that most fans weren't against Dunn's signing at the time, etc. True, but KW is the one who gets paid to be responsible for these moves, not the reactionary fans. He's left this organization in a mess.

Rocky Soprano
11-15-2011, 08:48 AM
Agreed. Kenny put the Sox in this hole with the Dunn and Rios acquisitions and the failure of the farm system to produce much in the way of talent. The "under the radar"/scrap heap acquisition plan isn't a long term plan for success.

I know some people will defend Kenny by saying that most fans weren't against Dunn's signing at the time, etc. True, but KW is the one who gets paid to be responsible for these moves, not the reactionary fans. He's left this organization in a mess.

If Dunn has a "career average" year next season do fans get to sing a different tune, yet again?

The Rios move is really hurting the team but I am not going call the Dunn signing a bust because of one really bad year. I still have hopethat Dunn can at least play to his averages and if he does that then I don't see how anyone can call that a mess.

russ99
11-15-2011, 09:00 AM
If Dunn has a "career average" year next season do fans get to sing a different tune, yet again?

The Rios move is really hurting the team but I am not going call the Dunn signing a bust because of one really bad year. I still have hopethat Dunn can at least play to his averages and if he does that then I don't see how anyone can call that a mess.

I still maintain the lack of moves earlier to either shore up the CF and 1B/DH positions with big league quality players or talented near-MLB prospects in years previous is the failure of Kenny's philosophy, not the high-risk moves to band-aid the problem by acquiring Dunn and Rios.

Now that we have to make those kinds of moves again to cut payroll, I don't have much confidence in Kenny to make the right decision.

DonnieDarko
11-15-2011, 09:03 AM
We probably need to trade Danks and quentin, though, regardless of MB. But I pray they aren't half-ass trades.

I don't understand the point of trading our now soon to be staff ace, Floyd.

I agree with this sentiment. Quentin might want to stay, but with Viciedo, Rios and de Aza on the team I don't think that there is a place for him in the outfield. Trading Floyd wouldn't make much sense either, because it'll deplete our already shaky starting rotation.

I mean, I lukewarmly like what we got on paper 1-4: Sale, Floyd, Peavy, Humber. I don't know exactly what to expect out of that rotation, but I still kind of like it. Who's slated to be the #5 starter, out of curiosity, in the event that Danks is traded? Please don't tell me it's the guy that the Sox got from the Jays last year (Zack Stewart?). >_>

Lorenzo Barcelo
11-15-2011, 09:18 AM
If Sale were to be a starter next year, what is a realistic number of innings pitched for 2012?

doublem23
11-15-2011, 09:22 AM
I still maintain the lack of moves earlier to either shore up the CF and 1B/DH positions with big league quality players or talented near-MLB prospects in years previous is the failure of Kenny's philosophy, not the high-risk moves to band-aid the problem by acquiring Dunn and Rios.

Calling the Adam Dunn signing a "high risk move" is basically the epitomy of 20/20 hindsight armchair GM'ing.

DirtySox
11-15-2011, 09:31 AM
Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
going forward. Expectation is that Type-B compensation will be eliminated this offseason and maybe a few Type-As who really shouldn't be.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Sounds like the Sox won't receive any draft pick compensation if Mark leaves under the new CBA.

sox1970
11-15-2011, 11:03 AM
If Sale were to be a starter next year, what is a realistic number of innings pitched for 2012?

Probably 160-170. They would probably skip his turn a handful of times.

TomBradley72
11-15-2011, 11:24 AM
Calling the Adam Dunn signing a "high risk move" is basically the epitomy of 20/20 hindsight armchair GM'ing.

I don't agree- there were a few red flags-

Alot of drama from him on becoming a full time DH
Big contracts for guys changing leagues can be risky
He hit .199 vs. LHs in 2010, in the low .230's overall post All Star break
The most depressing thing about Dunn isn't just his 2011 performance- but that even if he returns to "career norms" we have a guy who will strike out 200X/year, can't play the field, and can't hit lefties very well- for me it's not hindsight- I'm not a big fan of huge/long term contracts for "DH only" type players- you can usually find a servicable DH for alot less (NL player near the end of his career who can't play the field any more, etc.).

The 2009 DH game plan was a good one- with PK, Rios, etc. rotating through the role- the main problem was that they replaced Thome with Kotsay in the platoon system- re-signing Thome for $1.5M to DH only against righties instead of Kotsay + Manny Ramirez for ~$5M was the way to go.

kittle42
11-15-2011, 11:25 AM
Calling the Adam Dunn signing a "high risk move" is basically the epitomy of 20/20 hindsight armchair GM'ing.

No kidding. The guy had the most consistent stats of anyone in baseball for like 8 straight years. It was a complete non-risk signing at the time...supposedly, buyers knew exactly what they were going to get.

Of course, we know how that worked out, but that falloff was not exactly foreseeable.

TDog
11-15-2011, 12:56 PM
Calling the Adam Dunn signing a "high risk move" is basically the epitomy of 20/20 hindsight armchair GM'ing.


If you called it a high-risk move, or words to that effect, in the first place, about a year ago, as many did, it isn't hindsight at all.

Not hindsight. Either it is insight or a lucky guess.

asindc
11-15-2011, 01:01 PM
If you called it a high-risk move, or words to that effect, in the first place, about a year ago, as many did, it isn't hindsight at all.

Not hindsight. Either it is insight or a lucky guess.

I bolded, italicized, and underlined the most important word in your post. You were critical from the start, but at least 95% of those who are critical now were quite pleased with the signing at the time.

WhiteSox5187
11-15-2011, 01:17 PM
Probably 160-170. They would probably skip his turn a handful of times.

I think that's being generous, I think the most innings Sale threw was something like 120 in college. He hasn't started since when? June of 2010? I would be pleased with 150 innings and an ERA in the 4's.

TomBradley72
11-15-2011, 02:27 PM
No kidding. The guy had the most consistent stats of anyone in baseball for like 8 straight years. It was a complete non-risk signing at the time...supposedly, buyers knew exactly what they were going to get.

Of course, we know how that worked out, but that falloff was not exactly foreseeable.

Maybe not completely or as dramatic as his performance in 2011- but is a guy who hit .199 vs. LH's in 2010 worth 4 yrs/$50+M? or hit .233 in the 2nd half of 2010? or hit .217 w/RISP in 2010?

To me- those were relevent warning signs for ANY DH- much less the long term contract they gave Dunn-

KMcMahon817
11-15-2011, 03:39 PM
I think that's being generous, I think the most innings Sale threw was something like 120 in college. He hasn't started since when? June of 2010? I would be pleased with 150 innings and an ERA in the 4's.

I've posted this before, but I don't have the time to look for the post or the stats. But, including the Cape Cod League, and a few other teams that Sale had pitched for during college, his yearly inning totals was well over 150 innings. I realize that those innings are not as grueling as MLB innings, but the point is that he threw well over 150 innings a year in college.

mzh
11-15-2011, 05:24 PM
Maybe not completely or as dramatic as his performance in 2011- but is a guy who hit .199 vs. LH's in 2010 worth 4 yrs/$50+M? or hit .233 in the 2nd half of 2010? or hit .217 w/RISP in 2010?

To me- those were relevent warning signs for ANY DH- much less the long term contract they gave Dunn-
You're missing the point- those are warning signs in hindsight. Peripheral stats be damned the guy hit ~.250 with 40 HR 7 years in a row. In April if you had said he was due for a .165 season and cited those stats as evidence you would have been laughed out of WSI.

WhiteSox5187
11-15-2011, 05:44 PM
You're missing the point- those are warning signs in hindsight. Peripheral stats be damned the guy hit ~.250 with 40 HR 7 years in a row. In April if you had said he was due for a .165 season and cited those stats as evidence you would have been laughed out of WSI.

Honestly the only real warning signs (besides the stats of him hitting .199 against lefties and .210 with RISP) is that he had a reputation of a guy who didn't really work that hard (he just got by on natural talent). He also had a reputation of being a bit of a party guy (one of the reasons that Rizzo wanted him out of DC was because he was taking Zimmerman out late at night) and the fact that every team he was on was pretty desperate to get rid of him towards the end of his stay (the Nationals owner was the only reason we didn't get Dunn in 2010). And EVERY contract is a risk especially when you're dealing with a guy who his in this thirties with the body type and work ethic of Dunn.

Those were all warning flags but I can not believe that anyone could have honestly seen him hitting .159 with 11 home runs. At worst I thought he might put up numbers similar Carlos Pena in 2010 (.196 with about 30 HRs and 90 RBIs) and that I thought was being incredibly pessimistic.

TomBradley72
11-15-2011, 06:23 PM
Honestly the only real warning signs (besides the stats of him hitting .199 against lefties and .210 with RISP) is that he had a reputation of a guy who didn't really work that hard (he just got by on natural talent). He also had a reputation of being a bit of a party guy (one of the reasons that Rizzo wanted him out of DC was because he was taking Zimmerman out late at night) and the fact that every team he was on was pretty desperate to get rid of him towards the end of his stay (the Nationals owner was the only reason we didn't get Dunn in 2010). And EVERY contract is a risk especially when you're dealing with a guy who his in this thirties with the body type and work ethic of Dunn.


Those are ALL huge warning signs to me- hitting lefties, hitting w/RISP- if you're a DH those aren't peripheral stats- but the main way they earn their salary.

The other stuff is huge to me as well (hadn't heard it before)- especially for 4 years/$14M per year.

No one could have seen 2011 coming for Dunn- but all this stuff has me discouraged about what we'll get even IF he returns to a more normal year- he's just not my kind of player- and he wasn't when he was with the Reds/Nats, etc.

ChiSoxGirl
11-15-2011, 08:58 PM
From espnchicago.com (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/8183/williams-less-optimistic-on-buehrles-return):

"What I will miss more than that is the person he is. And you guys know what I'm talking about. When you talk about teammates, good teammates, supportive teammates, guys who have fun in the game, know when to be serious, know when to check somebody but know when to make somebody laugh, this is the guy you want. There's much more that we're going to miss than just every fifth day from Mark." - Kenny Williams

This hurt like a punch to the gut. I have the distinct feeling Buehrle is as good as gone. If so, thanks for the amazing memories, Mark. One day, we'll see you unveil #56 and your picture on the outfield wall.

WhiteSox5187
11-15-2011, 09:03 PM
From espnchicago.com (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/8183/williams-less-optimistic-on-buehrles-return):

"What I will miss more than that is the person he is. And you guys know what I'm talking about. When you talk about teammates, good teammates, supportive teammates, guys who have fun in the game, know when to be serious, know when to check somebody but know when to make somebody laugh, this is the guy you want. There's much more that we're going to miss than just every fifth day from Mark." - Kenny Williams

This hurt like a punch to the gut. I have the distinct feeling Buehrle is as good as gone. If so, thanks for the amazing memories, Mark. One day, we'll see you unveil #56 and your picture on the outfield wall.

I can appreciate the fact that it makes sense for Buerhle to leave, but boy, I wish Kenny were gone too. He's the guy who handcuffed us so we can't bring Buerhle back and now he is going to fix this mess? I don't see how.

DirtySox
11-15-2011, 09:50 PM
jonmorosi Jon Morosi
#Cubs have had multiple discussions with the agent for Mark Buehrle, source says.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WhiteSox5187
11-15-2011, 10:02 PM
jonmorosi Jon Morosi
#Cubs have had multiple discussions with the agent for Mark Buehrle, source says.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Oh please God, no.

ChicagoG19
11-15-2011, 10:06 PM
jonmorosi Jon Morosi
#Cubs have had multiple discussions with the agent for Mark Buehrle, source says.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

That would be my 2nd worst nightmare. (Signing with the Twins would be worse).

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-15-2011, 10:42 PM
jonmorosi Jon Morosi
#Cubs have had multiple discussions with the agent for Mark Buehrle, source says.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

I really think I would cry. That can't happen.

DirtySox
11-15-2011, 10:52 PM
Meh. Cubs are just another team. One that isn't likely to put up much of a fight next year. I think I'm pretty indifferent to wherever Mark ends up.

DSpivack
11-16-2011, 12:20 AM
From espnchicago.com (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/8183/williams-less-optimistic-on-buehrles-return):

"What I will miss more than that is the person he is. And you guys know what I'm talking about. When you talk about teammates, good teammates, supportive teammates, guys who have fun in the game, know when to be serious, know when to check somebody but know when to make somebody laugh, this is the guy you want. There's much more that we're going to miss than just every fifth day from Mark." - Kenny Williams

This hurt like a punch to the gut. I have the distinct feeling Buehrle is as good as gone. If so, thanks for the amazing memories, Mark. One day, we'll see you unveil #56 and your picture on the outfield wall.

Yeah, he's my 2nd favorite White Sox player ever. :whiner:

Meh. Cubs are just another team. One that isn't likely to put up much of a fight next year. I think I'm pretty indifferent to wherever Mark ends up.

And, for Buehrle, why not? NL plus he doesn't have to move.

DirtySox
11-16-2011, 12:31 AM
Mark's suitor list seems to be growing.

Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, White Sox, Blue Jays, Royals, Angels, Marlins, Nationals and Diamondbacks.

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/sources_yankees_red_sox_cubs_pursuing_buehrle/8124352

Martinigirl
11-16-2011, 09:59 AM
With the character issues the Red Sox had this year, I could see them paying a lot to bring in a guy like Mark. Helps the rotation and the attitude of the team, which is sorely needed. The Red Sox fan base, the legit fans, not the bandwagon jumpers, are disgusted by what the team became. A guy like Mark would almost immediately help the fan base see a change for the better.

And god knows they have the money to pay him.

SephClone89
11-16-2011, 10:16 AM
Can we change the title of the thread? It's a little misleading now.

Lip Man 1
11-16-2011, 11:16 AM
Story in the Tribune web site today saying Buehrle to the Cubs is simply talk, Cubs can't afford a "four year, 14 million a season" contract. (But apparently neither can the Sox...)

Lip

asindc
11-16-2011, 11:40 AM
Story in the Tribune web site today saying Buehrle to the Cubs is simply talk, Cubs can't afford a "four year, 14 million a season" contract. (But apparently neither can the Sox...)

Lip

As much as I like Buehrle, the Sox should not 'want' to afford that kind of contract for him. He will not be worth it. Let the Yanks overpay for him. Within two years they will be still lamenting their lack of starting pitching depth.

VMSNS
11-16-2011, 11:50 AM
jonmorosi Jon Morosi
#Cubs have had multiple discussions with the agent for Mark Buehrle, source says.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

:chunks

LITTLE NELL
11-16-2011, 12:00 PM
jonmorosi Jon Morosi
#Cubs have had multiple discussions with the agent for Mark Buehrle, source says.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

If that happens Buerhle would be booed everytime the Cubs came to USCF and his number will never will go up on the LF wall.

Domeshot17
11-16-2011, 12:07 PM
If that happens Buerhle would be booed everytime the Cubs came to USCF and his number will never will go up on the LF wall.

Most ignorant statement ever.

shingo10
11-16-2011, 12:53 PM
If that happens Buerhle would be booed everytime the Cubs came to USCF and his number will never will go up on the LF wall.


It would be worse than what Favre did to the Packers by going to Minnesota. A slap in the face to every White Sox fan.

That said, I really don't think he'll end up with the Cubs. Just speculation.

thomas35forever
11-16-2011, 01:01 PM
If that happens Buerhle would be booed everytime the Cubs came to USCF and his number will never will go up on the LF wall.
About as likely to happen as the Cubs winning the 2012 World Series.

JB98
11-16-2011, 01:13 PM
The Sox have just not handled this Buehrle situation well. Reactive and not proactive.

I'm disappointed.

Brian26
11-16-2011, 01:28 PM
As much as I like Buehrle, the Sox should not 'want' to afford that kind of contract for him. He will not be worth it. Let the Yanks overpay for him. Within two years they will be still lamenting their lack of starting pitching depth.

I disagree. The $14 million a year to the Sox is worth more than the $14 million to any other team when you consider fan sentiment with Buehrle leaving, especially if he goes north, which I think is more plausible than people are willing to admit.

DirtySox
11-16-2011, 01:29 PM
JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Here are the clubs playing on Mark Buehrle to some degree: CWS,CHC, FLA,MIN, TX,NYY,KC,STL,BOS,AZ...all confirmed by club sources..ESPN.com
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

doublem23
11-16-2011, 01:30 PM
Can we change the title of the thread? It's a little misleading now.

Did the content of the article in the OP change?

soxinem1
11-16-2011, 02:12 PM
The Sox have just not handled this Buehrle situation well. Reactive and not proactive.

I'm disappointed.

Make that two of us.

I'll give Theo credit. He immediately called Sandberg and said he would not be under consideration for the managerial job. There. Cut to the point, make a decision, and right or wrong, it was dealt with and over.

In the case with Buehrle, what is so difficult for KW to say, 'We are going a different route' or 'Yes, we want you'?

This crap happened with Fisk, McDowell, Fernandez, Thomas, and Ventura, among others.

I also believe that the White Sox will not be rebuilding. Sure, they may trade off some guys, as most teams do, and attempt to put some younger players in their place, which is not writing off an entire season.

STL is a World Champion that will have a new 2B, SS, and possibly 1B by the time 2012 rolls around. Change even happens to the top teams.

However Williams prefers veterans and has stated the 2012 budget will be slightly less than 2011, which again, tells me they are not going to be in dump mode, unless it is during the season.

But this whole Buehrle FA thing is being handled in the same **** manner as Scheuler and Williams have in the past with many players.

I still wonder where JR stands in this.........

shes
11-16-2011, 02:17 PM
I really don't see why anyone should care if Mark joins the Cubs because the White Sox can't offer him a comparable contract. If the guy wants to stay in Chicago and that's his only choice, who cares? I'd personally rather see him pitch at Wrigley than anywhere in the AL.

asindc
11-16-2011, 02:31 PM
Make that two of us.

I'll give Theo credit. He immediately called Sandberg and said he would not be under consideration for the managerial job. There. Cut to the point, make a decision, and right or wrong, it was dealt with and over.

In the case with Buehrle, what is so difficult for KW to say, 'We are going a different route' or 'Yes, we want you'?

This crap happened with Fisk, McDowell, Fernandez, Thomas, and Ventura, among others.

I also believe that the White Sox will not be rebuilding. Sure, they may trade off some guys, as most teams do, and attempt to put some younger players in their place, which is not writing off an entire season.

STL is a World Champion that will have a new 2B, SS, and possibly 1B by the time 2012 rolls around. Change even happens to the top teams.

However Williams prefers veterans and has stated the 2012 budget will be slightly less than 2011, which again, tells me they are not going to be in dump mode, unless it is during the season.

But this whole Buehrle FA thing is being handled in the same **** manner as Scheuler and Williams have in the past with many players.

I still wonder where JR stands in this.........

Do we know that he hasn't?

I've stated my views on this situation just a few posts above, which puts me in a distinct minority it seems. Of course, that means if the Sox don't sign him and someone else does for 4/14, then a majority will say that KW did not do his job in this case. I might say the same thing, but only if I know that JR authorized KW to offer at least that much and KW simply decided not to.

veeter
11-16-2011, 02:31 PM
Make that two of us.

I'll give Theo credit. He immediately called Sandberg and said he would not be under consideration for the managerial job. There. Cut to the point, make a decision, and right or wrong, it was dealt with and over.

In the case with Buehrle, what is so difficult for KW to say, 'We are going a different route' or 'Yes, we want you'?

This crap happened with Fisk, McDowell, Fernandez, Thomas, and Ventura, among others.

I also believe that the White Sox will not be rebuilding. Sure, they may trade off some guys, as most teams do, and attempt to put some younger players in their place, which is not writing off an entire season.

STL is a World Champion that will have a new 2B, SS, and possibly 1B by the time 2012 rolls around. Change even happens to the top teams.

However Williams prefers veterans and has stated the 2012 budget will be slightly less than 2011, which again, tells me they are not going to be in dump mode, unless it is during the season.

But this whole Buehrle FA thing is being handled in the same **** manner as Scheuler and Williams have in the past with many players.

I still wonder where JR stands in this.........To me you have it backwards. Kenny made his managerial choice quickly, which was the most important thing. Congratulations on calling Sandberg, but he still doesn't have a manager. Don't you think Kenny really is waiting for Buehrle's bar to be set? He wants Mark back, just like he wanted Paulie back. The market will set his price then Kenny will make an offer.

doublem23
11-16-2011, 02:49 PM
Make that two of us.

I'll give Theo credit. He immediately called Sandberg and said he would not be under consideration for the managerial job. There. Cut to the point, make a decision, and right or wrong, it was dealt with and over.

In the case with Buehrle, what is so difficult for KW to say, 'We are going a different route' or 'Yes, we want you'?

This crap happened with Fisk, McDowell, Fernandez, Thomas, and Ventura, among others.

I also believe that the White Sox will not be rebuilding. Sure, they may trade off some guys, as most teams do, and attempt to put some younger players in their place, which is not writing off an entire season.

STL is a World Champion that will have a new 2B, SS, and possibly 1B by the time 2012 rolls around. Change even happens to the top teams.

However Williams prefers veterans and has stated the 2012 budget will be slightly less than 2011, which again, tells me they are not going to be in dump mode, unless it is during the season.

But this whole Buehrle FA thing is being handled in the same **** manner as Scheuler and Williams have in the past with many players.

I still wonder where JR stands in this.........

I disagree. People would be more angry if the Sox called Buehrle a day after he filed for free agency and told him, "you're gone." In every rumor regarding Mark, the Sox are always listed as a team that is courting him and on his short list. They clearly want him to return. Buehrle is just doing what a normal FA does, he's listening to the offers other teams have for him. If he signs a deal with another team for like $18 M for 4 years, well, then it wasn't meant to be because the Sox neither have that kind of money nor is Mark worth it. But if he signs with someone for 2-3 years and $10 M a year, then it's OK to get pissed at the Sox. I think people are just more frustrated with the limbo. I'm not sure what else KW could be doing right now.

LITTLE NELL
11-16-2011, 02:52 PM
Most ignorant statement ever.

Everyone is entitled to his opinion, besides if that is the most ignorant statement ever you must not read many newspapers or don't get out much.

SCCWS
11-16-2011, 03:11 PM
Heard he is talking w Red Sox. Hopefully the lack of a manager sours the visit.

DumpJerry
11-16-2011, 03:18 PM
Is Nervous Buehrle Mark's brother?:redneck

esbrechtel
11-16-2011, 03:19 PM
I think I have already come to terms that he is gone. I honestly do not see any scenario where he ends up on this team next year. I hope he ends up in the NL so I could continue to cheer for him.

tebman
11-16-2011, 03:40 PM
Is Nervous Buehrle Mark's brother?:redneck

I think he might have confused him with this guy:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PlGAV1RT_pc/S0vUiV6dubI/AAAAAAAAApU/lr6RCWKrjJk/s320/nn.jpg

Nellie_Fox
11-16-2011, 03:59 PM
I think he might have confused him with this guy:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PlGAV1RT_pc/S0vUiV6dubI/AAAAAAAAApU/lr6RCWKrjJk/s320/nn.jpg

PtzKr7ERmXE

cards press box
11-16-2011, 04:13 PM
Is Nervous Buehrle Mark's brother?:redneck

No need to be nervous about Mark Buerhle's free agency. Just a guess but I suspect that he either re-signs with the White Sox or signs with a National League club other than the Cubs. If I had to rank the likely NL clubs that he might join, I would rank them this way:

1. Miami
2. Washington
3. St. Louis
4. Arizona

Brian26
11-16-2011, 05:37 PM
I really don't see why anyone should care if Mark joins the Cubs because the White Sox can't offer him a comparable contract. If the guy wants to stay in Chicago and that's his only choice, who cares? I'd personally rather see him pitch at Wrigley than anywhere in the AL.

This is quite the inflammatory statement. You seriously can't figure out why Sox fans don't want the face of the franchise to go the Cubs? Other than the unwritten rules that have been in place since Santo whined his way through his short stay on the Sox, this is a no brainer. Don't forget what site you're posting on (totally biased). I don't go to the Shrine to watch games in the summer, and I have no interest in watching the best Sox lefthander since Billy Pierce go help the Cubs succeed. If he doesn't come back to the Sox (which would be a crime), it would be blasphemy to see him on the Cubs.

gosox41
11-16-2011, 09:50 PM
To me you have it backwards. Kenny made his managerial choice quickly, which was the most important thing. Congratulations on calling Sandberg, but he still doesn't have a manager. Don't you think Kenny really is waiting for Buehrle's bar to be set? He wants Mark back, just like he wanted Paulie back. The market will set his price then Kenny will make an offer.

This is getting ridiculous.

KW didn't even bother interviewing for the managerial postion while the Cubs have done an extensive search with people who have actualy coaching experience.

On the flip side the Sox don't know if they are all in or rebuilding. So I think the next logical question is if Buehrle does come back, what is the cost? Not in money but in talent? We are probably so rudderless right now because the Sox are too busy try placate their fans over their fear of losing a fan favorite. The reason teh Sox don't have a direction is they seem more concerned about PR damage then making a winning baseball team.

Fire Ozzie. Fine. Let's bring in a fan favorite to replace him. Cutting payroll but can't cut it too much for 2012 (due to bad contracts) then let's re-sign a fan favorite knowing we are not going to contend anyway.

What a mess. JR should have took Kenny up on his offer. Maybe a different GM wouldn't be afraid to make the tough moves.


Bob

The Dude
11-17-2011, 07:52 AM
If that happens Buerhle would be booed everytime the Cubs came to USCF and his number will never will go up on the LF wall.

He's going on that wall no matter what happens. PK too.
:rolleyes: to your statement

asindc
11-17-2011, 08:15 AM
This is getting ridiculous.

KW didn't even bother interviewing for the managerial postion while the Cubs have done an extensive search with people who have actualy coaching experience.

On the flip side the Sox don't know if they are all in or rebuilding. So I think the next logical question is if Buehrle does come back, what is the cost? Not in money but in talent? We are probably so rudderless right now because the Sox are too busy try placate their fans over their fear of losing a fan favorite. The reason teh Sox don't have a direction is they seem more concerned about PR damage then making a winning baseball team.

Fire Ozzie. Fine. Let's bring in a fan favorite to replace him. Cutting payroll but can't cut it too much for 2012 (due to bad contracts) then let's re-sign a fan favorite knowing we are not going to contend anyway.

What a mess. JR should have took Kenny up on his offer. Maybe a different GM wouldn't be afraid to make the tough moves.


Bob

They probably know exactly what they want to do, but haven't bothered telling us for reasons that should be evident. Maybe a different GM would just work within the same parameters set by ownership. Speaking of which, if JR is as unhappy with KW's performance as you are, why hasn't JR fired him? If he is not unhappy with KW's performance (or at least not as unhappy), then I think the natural next question is "why not?"

Lip Man 1
11-17-2011, 08:57 AM
JR is loyal sometimes to a fault. Plus at his age he may just simply feel that he's not willing or up to go through the process of hiring a new GM.

Lip

kufram
11-17-2011, 10:07 AM
One would think that, given the history of PK being brought back twice when it looked like he was gone, a little more patience could be practiced here. If MB decides to take big bucks and pitch for someone else now he has every right to do so. I hope he's back but that is based on sentimentality as much as anything else.

So far what is being written in newspapers means absolutely nothing.

No matter who he pitches for next year anybody who boos him really should grow up and join the real world.

LITTLE NELL
11-17-2011, 12:19 PM
He's going on that wall no matter what happens. PK too.
:rolleyes: to your statement

I probably let my emotions get the better of me, but just the idea of Buerhle talking to the Cubs makes me sick to my stomach.

Nellie_Fox
11-17-2011, 01:44 PM
I probably let my emotions get the better of me, but just the idea of Buerhle talking to the Cubs makes me sick to my stomach.
Me too.

JB98
11-17-2011, 02:46 PM
I probably let my emotions get the better of me, but just the idea of Buerhle talking to the Cubs makes me sick to my stomach.

Yeah, let's be real here. Seeing Buerhle in a Cubs uniform while KW babbles about not being able to spend a dollar when he has only 50 cents would be a knife right in the heart for the majority of the Sox fan base.

I don't think Buehrle is going to the Cubs, but it will be a complete disaster for the Sox if he does.

kittle42
11-17-2011, 03:33 PM
Yeah, let's be real here. Seeing Buerhle in a Cubs uniform while KW babbles about not being able to spend a dollar when he has only 50 cents would be a knife right in the heart for the majority of the Sox fan base.

I don't think Buehrle is going to the Cubs, but it will be a complete disaster for the Sox if he does.

Just be honest, KW - "We couldn't afford Buehrle because I was silly enough to put in a waiver claim on Alex Rios."

I was all on the fire Ozzie bandwagon, but how KW still has a job is beyond me, too.

Tragg
11-17-2011, 04:32 PM
Me too.

Me three, and I don't hate the Cubs anymore (all I asked for was for them to hit the century mark, and they did).

DSpivack
11-17-2011, 04:41 PM
Yeah, let's be real here. Seeing Buerhle in a Cubs uniform while KW babbles about not being able to spend a dollar when he has only 50 cents would be a knife right in the heart for the majority of the Sox fan base.

I don't think Buehrle is going to the Cubs, but it will be a complete disaster for the Sox if he does.

I agree. But I would not boo Buehrle.

Harry Chappas
11-17-2011, 04:48 PM
I agree. But I would not boo Buehrle.

I wish there was a way we could boo our GM.

Harry Chappas
11-17-2011, 04:59 PM
Meh. Cubs are just another team. One that isn't likely to put up much of a fight next year. I think I'm pretty indifferent to wherever Mark ends up.

I gotta agree with you. I love what MB has done for the Sox, but once he leaves, I don't care where it is. I didn't hate Crede or Thome when they went to the Twins.

Now if the Sox offered the same contract and he chose the Cubs over the Sox, that might sting a bit. But I don't blame him one bit for saying "screw home team discounts" and going out and testing the market.

If he ends up elsewhere and it upsets you, direct your ire towards our GM. He got us in this mess with a bunch of bad paper and crappy drafts.

thomas35forever
11-17-2011, 06:41 PM
Kaplan posted a pic on his Twitter that shows Mark in a Cubs uni. What a tool.

WhiteSox5187
11-17-2011, 06:49 PM
Kaplan posted a pic on his Twitter that shows Mark in a Cubs uni. What a tool.

Well that, along with his Pujols Cubs jersey, will be another memento he can have of "Pictures of players in Cubs uniforms who never played for the Cubs."

DSpivack
11-17-2011, 06:51 PM
Kaplan posted a pic on his Twitter that
shows Mark in a Cubs uni. What a tool.

He can put that pic on his mantle next to his Pujols Cubs jersey.

dickallen15
11-17-2011, 06:52 PM
I don't see MB56 signing with the Cubs even if they offered him double what anyone else did. First there is the Sox thing, then there is the Cardinals thing. He must hate the Cubs more than anyone.

kittle42
11-17-2011, 07:49 PM
I don't see MB56 signing with the Cubs even if they offered him double what anyone else did. First there is the Sox thing, then there is the Cardinals thing. He must hate the Cubs more than anyone.

Athletes tend to set those things aside when they become professionals.

DSpivack
11-17-2011, 09:06 PM
Athletes tend to set those things aside when they become professionals.

I can't stand mushrooms, but if offered a job by a company called ****ake (LOL that it's bleeped out) or Portabella, I wouldn't not work for them.

Brian26
11-17-2011, 09:17 PM
I can't stand mushrooms, but if offered a job by a company called ****ake (LOL that it's bleeped out) or Portabella, I wouldn't not work for them.

That's not the best example, though, when there are 28 other companies besides ****ake and Portabella that would be willing to hire you, including three other out-of-state companies that could break the bank to bring you on-board, while ****ake's corporate headquartes happens to be across the street from Portabella in the same city. It would be a ****ty move.

DumpJerry
11-17-2011, 09:20 PM
I don't see MB56 signing with the Cubs even if they offered him double what anyone else did. First there is the Sox thing, then there is the Cardinals thing. He must hate the Cubs more than anyone.
Johnny Damon laughs at this post.

gosox41
11-17-2011, 10:42 PM
They probably know exactly what they want to do, but haven't bothered telling us for reasons that should be evident. Maybe a different GM would just work within the same parameters set by ownership. Speaking of which, if JR is as unhappy with KW's performance as you are, why hasn't JR fired him? If he is not unhappy with KW's performance (or at least not as unhappy), then I think the natural next question is "why not?"

I think they did tell us by their actions. Hiring Robin and hoping he grows into the job? The writing is on the wall, but I have to wonder again if KW has the cajones to make the tough calls. Forget PR. Figure out how to win down the road since it's evident to most that the next couple of years are going to be lean.*


*Of course that could change if Dunn and Peavy revert to their peak forms, Rios reaches his potential, Quentin stays healthy, Floyd and Danks become more then just .500 pitchers, Beckham gets his head out of his tushy....



Bob

gosox41
11-17-2011, 10:44 PM
I wish there was a way we could boo our GM.


Soxfest in January.

Bob

CAREY33
11-17-2011, 11:08 PM
He's not coming back. He's gonna get a huge offer with this weak pitching market. You could make an argument hes the no. 1 pitcher on this market.

Foulke You
11-18-2011, 12:34 AM
He's not coming back. He's gonna get a huge offer with this weak pitching market. You could make an argument hes the no. 1 pitcher on this market.
He is definitely a free agent at the right time for him and the worst time for us. Bruce Chen reportedly has received offers from three different teams on a multi-year deal. If the immortal Cy Chen has gotten that type of interest, I can only imagine what Buehrle is receiving.:(:

kittle42
11-18-2011, 08:30 AM
Johnny Damon laughs at this post.

Exactly. This kind of stuff happens pretty often.

JB98
11-18-2011, 12:44 PM
He is definitely a free agent at the right time for him and the worst time for us. Bruce Chen reportedly has received offers from three different teams on a multi-year deal. If the immortal Cy Chen has gotten that type of interest, I can only imagine what Buehrle is receiving.:(:

That's why I'm so disappointed in the Sox approach in the Buehrle situation. We all knew the free agent pitching market was going to be thin this offseason. Presumably, the Sox knew that as well. And if you know that bit of information, you should have known there was going to be a pretty nice market for Buehrle's services.

The proper approach would have been to offer Buehrle a fair contract during the exclusive negotiating window. Get ahead of the curve and try to set the market, not react to it. The Sox apparently did not do that, instead saying they'd allow the market to determine Buehrle's value.

Well, guess what? Now there's a bidding war among 13 teams that the Sox probably will not win. Anyone with an IQ over 15 should have been able to see this coming. Nice job, KW. I look forward to 32 starts from Zach Stewart next season.

Paulwny
11-18-2011, 12:48 PM
I probably let my emotions get the better of me, but just the idea of Buerhle talking to the Cubs makes me sick to my stomach.

Me too.

I also was upset with the idea of MB becoming a cub.
However, my thinking has changed. If he takes a lesser amt. of money from the cubs than other teams' offers so he can be close to home, I'll be upset with MB.
He knows he'd be slapping the faces of all the sox fans who have cheered for him all these yrs. By accepting a lesser offer from the cubs is him telling me that he never cared about the sox fans or their feelings.

DSpivack
11-18-2011, 01:05 PM
I also was upset with the idea of MB becoming a cub.
However, my thinking has changed. If he takes a lesser amt. of money from the cubs than other teams' offers so he can be close to home, I'll be upset with MB.
He knows he'd be slapping the faces of all the sox fans who have cheered for him all these yrs. By accepting a lesser offer from the cubs is him telling me that he never cared about the sox fans or their feelings.

That assumes that he'd receive the same offer, or at least a similar one, from the Sox as the Cubs.

Paulwny
11-18-2011, 01:15 PM
That assumes that he'd receive the same offer, or at least a similar one, from the Sox as the Cubs.


No, I'm saying, if he takes a lesser offer from the cubs than other teams' offers just so he could be closer to home.

Milw
11-18-2011, 02:34 PM
No, I'm saying, if he takes a lesser offer from the cubs than other teams' offers just so he could be closer to home.
You'd be mad at him because he doesn't want to uproot his family?

Look, I think it would be unforgivable if he snubbed the Sox for a comparable offer with the Cubs. But if the Cubs come in higher than the Sox, even if it's not the best offer out there, I have a hard time being upset with him about that. It would hurt, no question, but it'd definitely be understandable.

Paulwny
11-18-2011, 02:57 PM
You'd be mad at him because he doesn't want to uproot his family?

Look, I think it would be unforgivable if he snubbed the Sox for a comparable offer with the Cubs. But if the Cubs come in higher than the Sox, even if it's not the best offer out there, I have a hard time being upset with him about that. It would hurt, no question, but it'd definitely be understandable.

Look, everyone has a view on this. I'm not saying mine is correct or that your's is wrong. I just believe that after all these years MB has to take into consideration the feelings of sox fans when it comes to the cubs.

DonnieDarko
11-18-2011, 03:22 PM
Look, everyone has a view on this. I'm not saying mine is correct or that your's is wrong. I just believe that after all these years MB has to take into consideration the feelings of sox fans when it comes to the cubs.

Well, I'm going to say that yours is wrong. Very wrong. He doesn't have to take into consideration what anyone but he and his family think. The hell does he owe you, me, or anyone else that isn't affiliated with the White Sox team? Nothing.

For most opinions there is no right or wrong. Congratuations, however, for not just crossing the "wrong" threshold, but blowing it away.

kittle42
11-18-2011, 03:42 PM
Well, I'm going to say that yours is wrong. Very wrong. He doesn't have to take into consideration what anyone but he and his family think. The hell does he owe you, me, or anyone else that isn't affiliated with the White Sox team? Nothing.

For most opinions there is no right or wrong. Congratuations, however, for not just crossing the "wrong" threshold, but blowing it away.

Plenty of people have those kinds of opinions - they're unable to separate the player from the laundry and realize it's a profession and a business.

shingo10
11-18-2011, 04:26 PM
This is getting embarrassing to read.

Kenny Williams is going to be the GM of this team for the foreseeable future. No one has to like it but people better start accepting it. The constant bitching about how Kenny is destroying the world by doing this or not doing that is getting so old.

People spent the whole season calling for a change so when Ozzie leaves you think people would be satisfied but no. Bitching continues.

Instead of people taking a wait and see approach about anything they just want to bitch that Kenny sucks. This fan base is getting increasingly hard to please and increasingly negative about everything. Nothing is ever good enough.

DonnieDarko
11-18-2011, 04:43 PM
This is getting embarrassing to read.

Kenny Williams is going to be the GM of this team for the foreseeable future. No one has to like it but people better start accepting it. The constant bitching about how Kenny is destroying the world by doing this or not doing that is getting so old.

People spent the whole season calling for a change so when Ozzie leaves you think people would be satisfied but no. Bitching continues.

Instead of people taking a wait and see approach about anything they just want to bitch that Kenny sucks. This fan base is getting increasingly hard to please and increasingly negative about everything. Nothing is ever good enough.

:welcome:

slavko
11-18-2011, 05:04 PM
No, I'm saying, if he takes a lesser offer from the cubs than other teams' offers just so he could be closer to home.


Well then, the title of the thread would be accurate. Bravo, Jeff Passan.

wassagstdu
11-18-2011, 05:06 PM
This fan base is getting increasingly hard to please and increasingly negative about everything. Nothing is ever good enough.

Not even the outstanding performance of GM Kenny Williams!

TheVulture
11-18-2011, 05:29 PM
The proper approach would have been to offer Buehrle a fair contract during the exclusive negotiating window. Get ahead of the curve and try to set the market, not react to it. The Sox apparently did not do that, instead saying they'd allow the market to determine Buehrle's value.



All you people crying about Buehrle, or about having to trade Danks and Floyd, just think. If KW had locked these guys up early on, we would never have been able to acquire Dunn or Rios, or pay for mediocre middle relievers. Then where would we be? Pitching doesn't win championships anymore anyway. Hopefully, if KW plays his cards right, he can acquire a batter who walks 90 times a year instead.

A. Cavatica
11-18-2011, 07:56 PM
All you people crying about Buehrle, or about having to trade Danks and Floyd, just think. If KW had locked these guys up early on, we would never have been able to acquire Dunn or Rios, or pay for mediocre middle relievers. Then where would we be? Pitching doesn't win championships anymore anyway. Hopefully, if KW plays his cards right, he can acquire a batter who walks 90 times a year instead.

And almost walks many more!

Milw
11-19-2011, 01:22 PM
All you people crying about Buehrle, or about having to trade Danks and Floyd, just think. If KW had locked these guys up early on, we would never have been able to acquire Dunn or Rios, or pay for mediocre middle relievers. Then where would we be? Pitching doesn't win championships anymore anyway. Hopefully, if KW plays his cards right, he can acquire a batter who walks 90 times a year instead.
Yeah, because giving long-term contracts to pitchers never backfires. :rolleyes:

Hindsight's 20/20. But if you could go back to 2009 and poll Sox fans on whether they'd rather have Dunn, Rios, Konerko and AJ in 2012, or Danks, Floyd and Buehrle, it would have been overwhelmingly the first group. It's easy to criticize now, but it's not exactly like KW went counter to common wisdom or popular opinion at the time.

Tragg
11-20-2011, 09:40 PM
Yeah, because giving long-term contracts to pitchers never backfires. :rolleyes:

Hindsight's 20/20. But if you could go back to 2009 and poll Sox fans on whether they'd rather have Dunn, Rios, Konerko and AJ in 2012, or Danks, Floyd and Buehrle, it would have been overwhelmingly the first group. It's easy to criticize now, but it's not exactly like KW went counter to common wisdom or popular opinion at the time.

It is Dunn and Rios who are blocking out MB. Now if you asked the fans whether they'd prefer Dunn or Rios to MB, the answer would have been MB. Regardless, one would think that a highly paid GM should outperform fan opinion.
We're also spending $4 mill here and $2 mill there on mediocre middle relievers...that's contributing to the blocking-out as well.

Noneck
11-20-2011, 09:59 PM
It is Dunn and Rios who are blocking out MB. Now if you asked the fans whether they'd prefer Dunn or Rios to MB, the answer would have been MB. Regardless, one would think that a highly paid GM should outperform fan opinion.
We're also spending $4 mill here and $2 mill there on mediocre middle relievers...that's contributing to the blocking-out as well.

If all worked as planned and as expected by the vast majority of fans and insiders none of the above salaries should have affected the signing of Buehrle.

Milw
11-20-2011, 11:45 PM
It is Dunn and Rios who are blocking out MB. Now if you asked the fans whether they'd prefer Dunn or Rios to MB, the answer would have been MB. Regardless, one would think that a highly paid GM should outperform fan opinion.
We're also spending $4 mill here and $2 mill there on mediocre middle relievers...that's contributing to the blocking-out as well.
Dunn and Rios circa 2009 were both considered elite stars. Mark Buehrle was (and, frankly, remains) an above average starting pitcher who is on the decline. Very few people could have reasonably projected then that MB would be the most coveted of the three today.

Daver
11-21-2011, 12:58 AM
Dunn and Rios circa 2009 were both considered elite stars. Mark Buehrle was (and, frankly, remains) an above average starting pitcher who is on the decline. Very few people could have reasonably projected then that MB would be the most coveted of the three today.

Junk ball lefties with Mark's mechanics can pitch into their forties, I don't see how anyone can say he is declining, the innings pitched are pretty consistent for a long string of seasons.

Mohoney
11-21-2011, 01:09 AM
Junk ball lefties with Mark's mechanics can pitch into their forties, I don't see how anyone can say he is declining, the innings pitched are pretty consistent for a long string of seasons.

Not to mention that he would have logged anywhere between 20-30 more innings if this team went with a regular 5 man rotation.

MISoxfan
11-21-2011, 01:46 AM
Junk ball lefties with Mark's mechanics can pitch into their forties, I don't see how anyone can say he is declining, the innings pitched are pretty consistent for a long string of seasons.

You can say he's declining. His ERA, losses, hits, runs, earned runs, walks, WHIP, and BB/9 all declined. The only thing increasing are his strikeouts!

Huisj
11-21-2011, 09:48 AM
Dunn and Rios circa 2009 were both considered elite stars. Mark Buehrle was (and, frankly, remains) an above average starting pitcher who is on the decline. Very few people could have reasonably projected then that MB would be the most coveted of the three today.

What part of 2009 are we talking about? At what point of the season that year was Rios considered an elite star? Opening day? By the time he got to the Sox he was playing lousy, and then he played horribly with the Sox. Sure he had a nice 2010, but at the time the Sox picked him up in 2009, he was mediocre at best.

WhiteSox5187
11-21-2011, 03:08 PM
What part of 2009 are we talking about? At what point of the season that year was Rios considered an elite star? Opening day? By the time he got to the Sox he was playing lousy, and then he played horribly with the Sox. Sure he had a nice 2010, but at the time the Sox picked him up in 2009, he was mediocre at best.

He was terrible in 2009, he was put on waivers for heaven's sake! Every scout at the time was talking about how he seemed to not care anymore after signing that big contract and there was a lot of speculation that Kenny put a claim on him just to block Detroit from getting him.

doublem23
11-21-2011, 03:13 PM
He was terrible in 2009, he was put on waivers for heaven's sake! Every scout at the time was talking about how he seemed to not care anymore after signing that big contract and there was a lot of speculation that Kenny put a claim on him just to block Detroit from getting him.

You've personally talked to every scout?

doublem23
11-21-2011, 03:17 PM
Junk ball lefties with Mark's mechanics can pitch into their forties, I don't see how anyone can say he is declining, the innings pitched are pretty consistent for a long string of seasons.

Just because they can doesn't mean they're not declining. Warren Spahn pitched until he was 44, but that doesn't mean the last few years he pitched weren't horrible.

WhiteSox5187
11-21-2011, 03:17 PM
You've personally talked to every scout?

There were a lot of articles on ESPN citing scouts who were pointing to Rios' lackadaisical effort and pointed to his contract as being a source of it.

Nellie_Fox
11-21-2011, 04:04 PM
Just because they can doesn't mean they're not declining. Warren Spahn pitched until he was 44, but that doesn't mean the last few years he pitched weren't horrible.But, in fairness, he was terrific at 42; 23-7 with a 2.60 ERA and a WHIP of 1.12 while pitching 260 innings.

Frontman
11-21-2011, 08:06 PM
Kenny has already made his mind up, Mark is not coming back. When Kenny plays "we don't have enough money" song; its done, over, forget about it.

I will say this though. If he doesn't understand why the average Sox fan will be upset with Mark not returning so that we can see Dunn and Rios strike out 4-5 times each game combined?

He can go the way of Ozzie and get out of Chicago. As its already been said, he isn't going anywhere; but I won't be surprised if Dunn and/or Rios get booed for their first strike out at home in 2012.

Noneck
11-21-2011, 08:35 PM
I will say this though. If he doesn't understand why the average Sox fan will be upset with Mark not returning so that we can see Dunn and Rios strike out 4-5 times each game combined?



Ok Ill bite. Please tell me what Williams can do now with Dunn and Rios?(Two deals that were highly regarded at the time by most fans and experts)

Also how is he suppose to make water into wine in order to get the resources to sign Buerhle?

Danryan
11-21-2011, 09:16 PM
I won't boo either Dunn or Rios at the beginning of the year. What will that prove? If Rios continues to show lack of effort,well that is another story.

WhiteSox5187
11-21-2011, 09:32 PM
Ok Ill bite. Please tell me what Williams can do now with Dunn and Rios?(Two deals that were highly regarded at the time by most fans and experts)

Also how is he suppose to make water into wine in order to get the resources to sign Buerhle?

The Dunn deal was widely applauded but the Rios deal was not.

Noneck
11-21-2011, 09:48 PM
The Dunn deal was widely applauded but the Rios deal was not.

In no way it was considered a crap deal at inception and was acclaimed in the 1st half of 2010.

My point was that dont blame not signing MB on the Dunn and Rios acquisitions.

PalehosePlanet
11-21-2011, 09:51 PM
He was terrible in 2009, he was put on waivers for heaven's sake! Every scout at the time was talking about how he seemed to not care anymore after signing that big contract and there was a lot of speculation that Kenny put a claim on him just to block Detroit from getting him.

Big name players are put on waivers every year, it's done to gauge interest as much as anything else. Konerko was placed on wavers this past year too, doesn't mean a God-damn thing.

The team was bereft of athleticism and talent in 2009. This was a way to get a player who fit those two needs without having to give up talent in return.

Daver
11-21-2011, 10:20 PM
Big name players are put on waivers every year, it's done to gauge interest as much as anything else. Konerko was placed on wavers this past year too, doesn't mean a God-damn thing.


I have little doubt that every player on the Sox 25 man roster was put on waivers after the deadline, it makes no sense not to do it.

Tragg
11-21-2011, 11:08 PM
Dunn and Rios circa 2009 were both considered elite stars. Mark Buehrle was (and, frankly, remains) an above average starting pitcher who is on the decline. Very few people could have reasonably projected then that MB would be the most coveted of the three today.

Rios absolutely was not considered an elite star when we claimed him - absurd.
Dunn wasn't either, and he had holes in his offensive game, but his decline was obviously far greater than anyone could have reasonably expected. That said, his signing was also a result of earlier poor moves, such as essentially playing 2009 without a real DH. Plus, our best outfield/hitting prospect was essentially a DH.
We lose MB and now we're likely going to have to keep Danks to salvage this year's staff, knowing that we'll lose him next year. I guess we'll try to trade Quentin, but when you shop a player you lose bargaining power.
I hope he can salvage something.

slavko
11-22-2011, 09:30 AM
Rios absolutely was not considered an elite star when we claimed him - absurd.
Dunn wasn't either, and he had holes in his offensive game, but his decline was obviously far greater than anyone could have reasonably expected. That said, his signing was also a result of earlier poor moves, such as essentially playing 2009 without a real DH. Plus, our best outfield/hitting prospect was essentially a DH.
We lose MB and now we're likely going to have to keep Danks to salvage this year's staff, knowing that we'll lose him next year. I guess we'll try to trade Quentin, but when you shop a player you lose bargaining power.
I hope he can salvage something.

You're not ready for Humber/Peavy/Sale/Axelrod/Stewart? That's what it could be. Unless in trading Danks and/or Floyd one of the albatross contracts is dumped as part of their trade. That would free up enough money to keep Mark. Don't read too much into Kenny saying we can't afford to keep Mark. Under the radar, remember?

asindc
11-22-2011, 09:48 AM
Rios absolutely was not considered an elite star when we claimed him - absurd.
Dunn wasn't either, and he had holes in his offensive game, but his decline was obviously far greater than anyone could have reasonably expected. That said, his signing was also a result of earlier poor moves, such as essentially playing 2009 without a real DH. Plus, our best outfield/hitting prospect was essentially a DH.
We lose MB and now we're likely going to have to keep Danks to salvage this year's staff, knowing that we'll lose him next year. I guess we'll try to trade Quentin, but when you shop a player you lose bargaining power.
I hope he can salvage something.

Do you think that if the Sox had re-signed Thome in 2010 (the year I assume you meant since Thome played most of the year for the Sox in 2009), that the Sox would not have been interested in signing any other FA DH in 2011? My question is not meant to be facetious, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on that.

russ99
11-22-2011, 11:24 AM
I won't be surprised if Dunn and/or Rios get booed for their first strike out at home in 2012.

I really hope we as a fanbase grow up and stop this, especially at the beginning of a new season, where it serves no purpose except to look like a bunch of jerks.

Next year will be a fresh start in more ways than one, so I'd hope the fans can give the team a chance, and not assume them doomed before they even break camp...

DonnieDarko
11-22-2011, 11:24 AM
You're not ready for Humber/Peavy/Sale/Axelrod/Stewart? That's what it could be. Unless in trading Danks and/or Floyd one of the albatross contracts is dumped as part of their trade. That would free up enough money to keep Mark. Don't read too much into Kenny saying we can't afford to keep Mark. Under the radar, remember?

Good Lord, that rotation does not look pretty. Stewart? As a starter?:puking:

asindc
11-22-2011, 12:17 PM
I really hope we as a fanbase grow up and stop this, especially at the beginning of a new season, where it serves no purpose except to look like a bunch of jerks.

Next year will be a fresh start in more ways than one, so I'd hope the fans can give the team a chance, and not assume them doomed before they even break camp...

No, no, no, no, no, no!! I don't wanna!! Stupid players is stupid!:tantrum:

Tragg
11-22-2011, 12:58 PM
Do you think that if the Sox had re-signed Thome in 2010 (the year I assume you meant since Thome played most of the year for the Sox in 2009), that the Sox would not have been interested in signing any other FA DH in 2011? My question is not meant to be facetious, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on that.
I don't know - but I think the fact that we played the 2010 season with no DH made getting a DH for 2011 a major imperative, and we massively over-swung. It was bad luck that he turned out to be so terribly bad....

You're not ready for Humber/Peavy/Sale/Axelrod/Stewart?

That's a 72 win rotation in my opinion. Now a major rebound by Peavy and some sharp pitching by Sale could improve it to 78 or so
Williams obviously is investing in the pen to protect it as much as possible - he paid our last man nearly $4 mill per. So the pitching may not end up as bad as the rotation stacks up.

And honestly, if he can make some sharp trades of Danks, Quentin, Thornton and I guess Floyd (although I don't see the point of trading Floyd), things certainly could shape up differently. But his trades as of late have not been sharp so I'll just wait and see.

Frontman
11-22-2011, 02:45 PM
I really hope we as a fanbase grow up and stop this, especially at the beginning of a new season, where it serves no purpose except to look like a bunch of jerks.

Next year will be a fresh start in more ways than one, so I'd hope the fans can give the team a chance, and not assume them doomed before they even break camp...

Oh, right. Because the Sox aren't hog-tied by the GM's move this year regarding next year's roster moves and signings.........

So, let's see; if we don't show up, Kenny blames us for not having money that he already spent. If we do show up and show our disgust at his previous years mistakes, we're a bunch of jerks.

Nice to be a Sox fan for the next few seasons now, isn't it?

And yes, you can blame the Rios money (as well as all of Kenny's over-paid middle relievers money) on the reason they won't re-sign Mark. If the team doesn't have money, then they don't have money. But don't say that the reason they don't have the money isn't because of Kenny's flaws in the past, because THAT IS EXACTLY WHY they don't have the money.

doublem23
11-22-2011, 02:51 PM
So, let's see; if we don't show up, Kenny blames us for not having money that he already spent.


I don't believe he has ever done this. Just because he has publicly complained that he's not had a lot of financial flexibility does not mean he's lashed out at fans. In fact, during the season last year, he did the opposite and blamed the team for not playing well enough to earn fans' dollars.

Noneck
11-22-2011, 02:53 PM
The moves were well regarded at the time, most GM's would have made the same moves, hindsight is always 20/20.

Frontman
11-22-2011, 02:54 PM
I don't believe he has ever done this. Just because he has publicly complained that he's not had a lot of financial flexibility does not mean he's lashed out at fans. In fact, during the season last year, he did the opposite and blamed the team for not playing well enough to earn fans' dollars.

Last season, yes; he said the team needed to play better so the fans would come out; the previous 3 seasons it was all about how he has no money since attendance is low. If that isn't blaming the fans; I don't know how else you'd put it.

doublem23
11-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Last season, yes; he said the team needed to play better so the fans would come out; the previous 3 seasons it was all about how he has no money since attendance is low. If that isn't blaming the fans; I don't know how else you'd put it.

I don't recall him ever saying anything like that

WhiteSox5187
11-22-2011, 03:14 PM
I don't recall him ever saying anything like that

As I recall his quotes were always along the lines of "Well the attendance just wasn't where we thought it would be and I can't spend a dollar if I have only fifty cents." It was kind of blaming the fans in a round about way.

asindc
11-22-2011, 03:49 PM
As I recall his quotes were always along the lines of "Well the attendance just wasn't where we thought it would be and I can't spend a dollar if I have only fifty cents." It was kind of blaming the fans in a round about way.

Only if you are looking for it. That is a very neutral statement otherwise.

asindc
11-22-2011, 03:51 PM
Oh, right. Because the Sox aren't hog-tied by the GM's move this year regarding next year's roster moves and signings.........

So, let's see; if we don't show up, Kenny blames us for not having money that he already spent. If we do show up and show our disgust at his previous years mistakes, we're a bunch of jerks.

Nice to be a Sox fan for the next few seasons now, isn't it?

And yes, you can blame the Rios money (as well as all of Kenny's over-paid middle relievers money) on the reason they won't re-sign Mark. If the team doesn't have money, then they don't have money. But don't say that the reason they don't have the money isn't because of Kenny's flaws in the past, because THAT IS EXACTLY WHY they don't have the money.


Personally, I'll choose a third option: Show up and root for my team.

TheVulture
11-22-2011, 04:20 PM
Hindsight's 20/20. But if you could go back to 2009 and poll Sox fans on whether they'd rather have Dunn, Rios, Konerko and AJ in 2012, or Danks, Floyd and Buehrle, it would have been overwhelmingly the first group.

I disagree; the impending failure of Rios and Dunn was not unforeseen. I have to admit I personally was not displeased with acquiring Rios since CF was such a black hole for the Sox, but many expected Rios to fail. I was pretty adamant that Dunn would be a bust, as were others...though he surpassed even my expectations. Most as I recall figured the Sox would need to replace AJ by 2012, or at least slide him into a backup role. Then of course there are those such as myself who value starting pitching above all else, so I'm not sure your assertion is true, especially if you take Konerko out of the equation. I don't think anyone's complaining about PK.

Frontman
11-22-2011, 06:14 PM
Personally, I'll choose a third option: Show up and root for my team.

Our team is a bottom feeder at best right now. The whole "rebuilding on the fly" hasn't worked, it still won't work; and right now a strong argument can be made that the Sox will finish dead last in the Central.

asindc
11-22-2011, 07:43 PM
Our team is a bottom feeder at best right now. The whole "rebuilding on the fly" hasn't worked, it still won't work; and right now a strong argument can be made that the Sox will finish dead last in the Central.

How does your point relate to my post?

kufram
11-23-2011, 04:28 AM
Personally, I'll choose a third option: Show up and root for my team.

This a novel idea that I understand is practiced by some people. Of course one would have to have a desire to enjoy being a fan of a particular team for this innovation to actually work.

I find it best to allow at least a few games to be played in a new season before giving up on the team.

I have enormous respect for MB and hope that he remains a White Sox player but I don't think the 2012 season is dependent on him. We could lose with him and we could win without him. It's far too early to know.

Frontman
11-23-2011, 11:24 AM
How does your point relate to my post?

Your point is to show up and enjoy the team. I'm saying that KW has made a team that I find very hard to enjoy and with him already starting the "we're a poor team in this market" talk is going to make it VERY difficult to believe he's going to turn it around.

I have a feeling we're in for a long, long dry spell of garbage baseball being played by the White Sox.

Nellie_Fox
11-23-2011, 11:40 AM
Your point is to show up and enjoy the team. I'm saying that KW has made a team that I find very hard to enjoy and with him already starting the "we're a poor team in this market" talk is going to make it VERY difficult to believe he's going to turn it around.

I have a feeling we're in for a long, long dry spell of garbage baseball being played by the White Sox.He didn't say that the third option was to enjoy whatever gets trotted out there, rather to root for the team. Different concepts. If you choose to only watch and cheer for the Sox when they're going good, that's up to you. I watch every year no matter what. Sometimes it's painful, but it's still White Sox baseball, which is better than no White Sox baseball.

TDog
11-23-2011, 12:42 PM
He didn't say that the third option was to enjoy whatever gets trotted out there, rather to root for the team. Different concepts. If you choose to only watch and cheer for the Sox when they're going good, that's up to you. I watch every year no matter what. Sometimes it's painful, but it's still White Sox baseball, which is better than no White Sox baseball.

Before the White Sox became a pretty good team in the 1990s, when they were a team that would contend once every five years or so (1967, 1972, 1977, 1983), this seemed to be the mindset for most White Sox fans.

asindc
11-23-2011, 12:57 PM
Your point is to show up and enjoy the team. I'm saying that KW has made a team that I find very hard to enjoy and with him already starting the "we're a poor team in this market" talk is going to make it VERY difficult to believe he's going to turn it around.

I have a feeling we're in for a long, long dry spell of garbage baseball being played by the White Sox.

He didn't say that the third option was to enjoy whatever gets trotted out there, rather to root for the team. Different concepts. If you choose to only watch and cheer for the Sox when they're going good, that's up to you. I watch every year no matter what. Sometimes it's painful, but it's still White Sox baseball, which is better than no White Sox baseball.

Good to see that somebody read what I wrote.

doublem23
11-23-2011, 01:16 PM
Before the White Sox became a pretty good team in the 1990s, when they were a team that would contend once every five years or so (1967, 1972, 1977, 1983), this seemed to be the mindset for most White Sox fans.

I assume this was also a time when tickets didn't cost an arm and a leg? I don't mind paying, of course, but don't give me this bull**** "we have to rebuild like we're the ****ing Royals," when you're charging me more 95% of the league.

#1swisher
11-23-2011, 01:37 PM
whitesox

NEWS: The #WhiteSox have offered salary arbitration to Mark
Buehrle but has declined 2 offer arbitration 2 Juan Pierre.

Noneck
11-23-2011, 01:48 PM
Before the White Sox became a pretty good team in the 1990s, when they were a team that would contend once every five years or so (1967, 1972, 1977, 1983), this seemed to be the mindset for most White Sox fans.

I assume this was also a time when tickets didn't cost an arm and a leg? I don't mind paying, of course, but don't give me this bull**** "we have to rebuild like we're the ****ing Royals," when you're charging me more 95% of the league.

Both have validity, but first I think we should all wait and see how this off season plays out.

FielderJones
11-23-2011, 02:19 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111123&content_id=26034998&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws

Frontman
11-23-2011, 03:01 PM
I assume this was also a time when tickets didn't cost an arm and a leg? I don't mind paying, of course, but don't give me this bull**** "we have to rebuild like we're the ****ing Royals," when you're charging me more 95% of the league.

Thank you for seeing my point. As someone who can afford one or two games a year (if I'm lucky) it's hard to slap down over a 100 bucks to "enjoy" a game when the product is sub-par, the prices are over par, and the guy who created that situation is the one dropping the "hard to spend a buck when you've only got 50 cents" line.

Hard to "cheer on" and "root" for a team that asks a lot of my money, but has spent it foolishly on players while allowing proven talent walk because "we can't afford them."

And yes, noneck is right. We should see how the season plays out. But KW is in Mid-June excuse mode in Mid-November. Hard to remain positive when he starts THIS early on the excuse making.

Nellie_Fox
11-23-2011, 03:52 PM
You don't have to go to the games to root them on. Obviously, being in Minnesota, I don't get to many any more, but in years past I'd go to far fewer when they weren't good, to send a message. But, I still watched the games on TV, and still enjoyed each game as a discrete experience, to be experienced for itself.

Frontman
11-23-2011, 04:05 PM
You don't have to go to the games to root them on. Obviously, being in Minnesota, I don't get to many any more, but in years past I'd go to far fewer when they weren't good, to send a message. But, I still watched the games on TV, and still enjoyed each game as a discrete experience, to be experienced for itself.

Then we're both of the same mindset; because that's what I do. Although, if they are playing stupid baseball and making it an error filled evening of dumb decisions?

I tend to read a book instead.

SI1020
11-23-2011, 04:13 PM
Your point is to show up and enjoy the team. I'm saying that KW has made a team that I find very hard to enjoy and with him already starting the "we're a poor team in this market" talk is going to make it VERY difficult to believe he's going to turn it around.

I have a feeling we're in for a long, long dry spell of garbage baseball being played by the White Sox. I wouldn't call it a sure thing, baseball being so unpredictable. However looking at it as objectively as possible, it's not too hard to come to a similar conclusion. Things do look bleak. I'm absolutely dreading the starting rotation they're going to roll out there next year.

SephClone89
11-23-2011, 04:14 PM
Thank you for seeing my point. As someone who can afford one or two games a year (if I'm lucky) it's hard to slap down over a 100 bucks to "enjoy" a game when the product is sub-par, the prices are over par....

I promise you can enjoy a game at much cheaper than over $100.

DSpivack
11-23-2011, 04:51 PM
I promise you can enjoy a game at much cheaper than over $100.

Depends. Are you taking just yourself or a whole family?

Brian26
11-23-2011, 06:12 PM
Hard to "cheer on" and "root" for a team that asks a lot of my money, but has spent it foolishly on players while allowing proven talent walk because "we can't afford them."

The last big name free agents to walk because the Sox couldn't afford them were Ventura and Belle after the '98 season (And, no, Magglio (after 2004) and Big Frank (after 2005) don't count since they were damaged goods). And, just for the sake of being fair, Ray Durham was traded in mid 2002 before free agency (he surely would have left), and Foulke was traded after 2002 (would have left for sure after the 2003 season). But, having been 13 years since the Sox let a guy leave due to money, that's not a bad track record.

Notable re-signings or extensions:

Extension for Buehrle at Soxfest 2003
Freddy Garcia after he was acquired from Seattle in '04
Konerko re-signed after the 2005 season
Extensions for Contreras and Garland after 2005
Buehrle re-signed late 2007
Dye re-signed 2007
Konerko re-signed after 2010

JR's opened up the pocketbook in the past decade, so give him credit for that.

(I'm doing this by memory, so I probably forgot someone).

TDog
11-23-2011, 06:17 PM
I assume this was also a time when tickets didn't cost an arm and a leg? I don't mind paying, of course, but don't give me this bull**** "we have to rebuild like we're the ****ing Royals," when you're charging me more 95% of the league.

I didn't say fans were going to the games. White Sox attendance in the years I referenced was generally dreadful. There was a season when the most expensive ticket in the park was $3.50, and the team drew less than half a million fans. I was agreeing the Nellie. He posted about how he watches the games, win or lose. He lives in Minnesota and obviously dissuaded from watching the games because of ticket prices. I don't see how ticket prices keep fans from watching the games.

palehozenychicty
11-23-2011, 06:55 PM
I guess Pierre would have accepted arbitration. Is the market going to be that weak for his services? I haven't heard a team linked, but he could probably be a starter in the NL for someone.

Frontman
11-23-2011, 07:27 PM
Depends. Are you taking just yourself or a whole family?

A family of three. It costs me over 100 to get tickets, park, and a dog/sodas.

Brian26
11-23-2011, 07:28 PM
I guess Pierre would have accepted arbitration. Is the market going to be that weak for his services? I haven't heard a team linked, but he could probably be a starter in the NL for someone.

No way; not with his declining skill set. He'd make much more in arbitration.

Mohoney
11-23-2011, 08:22 PM
Both have validity, but first I think we should all wait and see how this off season plays out.

Do season ticket holders have that luxury?

Season ticket holders, when are your payments due?

Frontman
11-23-2011, 08:47 PM
No way; not with his declining skill set. He'd make much more in arbitration.

Dare I ask, but do the Marlins need a LF?

Milw
11-23-2011, 08:53 PM
I wouldn't call it a sure thing, baseball being so unpredictable. However looking at it as objectively as possible, it's not too hard to come to a similar conclusion. Things do look bleak. I'm absolutely dreading the starting rotation they're going to roll out there next year.
Looking at it objectively, a rotation of Floyd/Humber/Sale/Peavy/Stewart is, at worst, probably middle of the pack in the American League. A whole lot of teams would love to have that rotation. Seriously.

Mohoney
11-23-2011, 10:23 PM
Looking at it objectively, a rotation of Floyd/Humber/Sale/Peavy/Stewart is, at worst, probably middle of the pack in the American League. A whole lot of teams would love to have that rotation. Seriously.

Not with Peavy at a $17mm price tag. He's the turd in the punch bowl in this rotation.

Milw
11-23-2011, 10:37 PM
Not with Peavy at a $17mm price tag. He's the turd in the punch bowl in this rotation.
No argument on that point. But looking at it strictly from a talent perspective, that rotation (which assumes that both Buehrle AND Danks are gone, which is a worst-case scenario) is really not that bad. Is it a playoff rotation? Probably not. But people here are acting like it's an embarrassingly bad group, and that's just not reality.

SI1020
11-23-2011, 11:30 PM
Looking at it objectively, a rotation of Floyd/Humber/Sale/Peavy/Stewart is, at worst, probably middle of the pack in the American League. A whole lot of teams would love to have that rotation. Seriously. Let's just say you value that rotation a hell of a lot more than I do.

JB98
11-24-2011, 12:06 AM
Let's just say you value that rotation a hell of a lot more than I do.

I'm with you. Of those five, who can you trust to give you 200 innings?

If it's Peavy, Floyd, Sale, Humber and Stewart, the Sox will be lucky to win 70 games.