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View Full Version : Minoso on HOF ballot Update: Not enough votes - JR baffled


LITTLE NELL
11-03-2011, 12:52 PM
Minnie is on the Golden Era committee ballot for 2012

I have to admit I have never heard of this committee. I thought that the Veterans committee was the last chance. Does this mean that Billy Pierce still has a chance for the HOF?
Good luck Minnie, hope you make it.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20111103&content_id=25882470&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

SephClone89
11-03-2011, 02:20 PM
Minnie is on the Golden Era committee ballot for 2012

I have to admit I have never heard of this committee. I thought that the Veterans committee was the last chance. Does this mean that Billy Pierce still has a chance for the HOF?
Good luck Minnie, hope you make it.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20111103&content_id=25882470&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Judging by the article, the "Golden Era Committee" is just the new name for the Veterans Committee.

Lip Man 1
11-03-2011, 02:31 PM
He deserves to get in.

Lip

LITTLE NELL
11-03-2011, 02:39 PM
Judging by the article, the "Golden Era Committee" is just the new name for the Veterans Committee.

Went to Wikipedia and from the way I understand it is that there are different eras and that different committee members vote on their respective era and the Golden Era is one of them.
The 3 eras are: Pre integration 1871-1946
Golden Era 1947-1972
Expansion Era 1972-present

Medford Bobby
11-03-2011, 04:48 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2dpyk9SRE68/TgANBQ4BdmI/AAAAAAAAAfY/fnpcfQuiZVw/s1600/1964+Topps+Minnie+Minoso.jpg

The HOF doors will NOW open for you Minnie......!:bandance:

Fenway
11-03-2011, 05:36 PM
Buzzie Bavasi, Ken Boyer, Charlie Finley, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Allie Reynolds, Ron Santo and Luis Tiant are the candidates for Golden Era Committee.


http://baseballhall.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/homepage_slideshow/spotlights/11.eracommitteeballot.jpg

Any candidate to receive votes on 75 percent of the ballots cast by the 16-member Golden Era Committee will earn election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and will be inducted in Cooperstown on July 22, 2012, along with any electees who emerge from the 2012 Baseball Writers' Association of America election, to be announced on Jan. 9.

The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Golden Era ballot features Hall of Fame members Hank Aaron, Al Kaline, Ralph Kiner, Tommy Lasorda, Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson, Don Sutton and Billy Williams; major league executives Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Bill DeWitt (Cardinals), Roland Hemond (Diamondbacks), Gene Michael (Yankees), and Al Rosen (retired); along with veteran media members Dick Kaegel, Jack O'Connell and Dave Van Dyck.


http://baseballhall.org/news/press-releases/ten-named-golden-era-ballot-baseball-hall-fame-election

A person needs 12 votes.

I think of that group and the politics involve, Kaat has the best shot.

Lip Man 1
11-03-2011, 05:44 PM
Roland is one of the voters so Minnie and Jim Katt are sure to get at least one vote.

:smile:

Lip

Fenway
11-03-2011, 05:49 PM
Roland is one of the voters so Minnie and Jim Katt are sure to get at least one vote.

:smile:

Lip

Kaat is beloved by virtually everyone in the game. He just excelled doing color on NYY telecasts.

Gil Hodges could sneak in. There is a bridge named after him in New York.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Parkway-Gil_Hodges_Memorial_Bridge

jamokes
11-03-2011, 10:00 PM
I sure hope my buddy Jim Kaat gets in..........when do they announce which of these have made it?

TommyJohn
11-04-2011, 12:31 PM
Cool! there are no fewer than four ex-White Sox on the list: Minoso, Kaat, Santo and Ken Boyer.

I'd like to see Minnie get in, but I don't think it'll happen. I think Santo will be the one to get the nod, along with Buzzy Bavasi.

palehosepub
11-04-2011, 05:07 PM
Cool! there are no fewer than four ex-White Sox on the list: Minoso, Kaat, Santo and Ken Boyer.

I'd like to see Minnie get in, but I don't think it'll happen. I think Santo will be the one to get the nod, along with Buzzy Bavasi.

Santo doesn't count! He always mainatined that he regretted playing for the White Sox, don't need him either

Nellie_Fox
11-05-2011, 12:02 AM
Cool! there are no fewer than four ex-White Sox on the list: Minoso, Kaat, Santo and Ken Boyer.

I'd like to see Minnie get in, but I don't think it'll happen. I think Santo will be the one to get the nod, along with Buzzy Bavasi.Minnie's the only one who's really associated with the Sox, and I'm quite certain the only one who would go in with a Sox cap.

Golden Sox
11-05-2011, 09:56 AM
Ron Santo (the Pizza Man) said he regretted playing for the White Sox. Speaking as a long time White Sox fan, I can say that the feeling is more than mutual. He couldn't adjust playing in a bigger ballpark like the old Comiskey Park. The bum only hit 5 home runs for the White Sox in 1974. He was so bad that Chuck Tanner wound up benching him the last month of the season. The White Sox gave up two decent ballplayers for him (Steve Stone and Steve Swisher) and he turned out to be a bust playing on the great Southside of Chicago.People should always remember that the Pizza Man was one of the few ballplayers who crossed the picket line against his own fellow players when the players went out on strike in 1972.

Lip Man 1
11-05-2011, 10:21 AM
There is plenty of evidence both direct and circumstantial that Santo was a "me first" type player.

That's part of the reason he never won anything in his life.

Lip

thomas35forever
11-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Good luck, Minnie!

TomBradley72
11-05-2011, 11:53 AM
He deserves to get in.

Lip

Why?

manders_01
11-05-2011, 12:01 PM
Good luck, Minnie!!!

LITTLE NELL
11-05-2011, 01:36 PM
Why?

Tough call on Minnie. From 1951 to 61 he was one of the best players in MLB while appearing in 9 All-Star games. After 1961 his career sort of nose-dived. If you add his Negro league stats which he played in for 4 years to his MLB stats he just might make it. I'm not sure if the Golden Era committee looks at his Negro league stats but they should.

BigKlu59
11-05-2011, 03:15 PM
It's about time... Good luck Minnie !!!! You Go Go Go in the Hall !!!

BK59

SI1020
11-05-2011, 03:35 PM
Why? It's quite a list of names, and I was going to type them all out one by one but see for yourself how many HOFers have a lower WAR than Minnie Minoso, who is no 152 on the list. I mean baseball-reference and others have kind of made the WAR stat into something big, right?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

TomBradley72
11-05-2011, 04:32 PM
It's quite a list of names, and I was going to type them all out one by one but see for yourself how many HOFers have a lower WAR than Minnie Minoso, who is no 152 on the list. I mean baseball-reference and others have kind of made the WAR stat into something big, right?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

There are alot of guys well above Minnie in the WAR list that I don't see an HoF'ers (Willie Davis, Ron Cey, etc.)

I think Minnie was a great player- but I don't see him as a Hall of Famer.

SI1020
11-05-2011, 06:05 PM
There are alot of guys well above Minnie in the WAR list that I don't see an HoF'ers (Willie Davis, Ron Cey, etc.)

I think Minnie was a great player- but I don't see him as a Hall of Famer. I can see your point and in fact I've often thought that if you have to think about it then the player probably doesn't belong. IMO baseball has by far the weakest HOF, with many players enshrined that don't belong. Still if you're going to vote in Don Drysdale and Catfish Hunter then why not Billy Pierce? If Chick Hafey and Bill Mazeroski are in then why the hell not Minoso? I saw both Minoso and Mazeroski play and I'd take Minnie any day. He was just as good fielding his position and a hell of a lot better hitter.

Paulwny
11-05-2011, 06:21 PM
I can see your point and in fact I've often thought that if you have to think about it then the player probably doesn't belong. IMO baseball has by far the weakest HOF, with many players enshrined that don't belong. Still if you're going to vote in Don Drysdale and Catfish Hunter then why not Billy Pierce? If Chick Hafey and Bill Mazeroski are in then why the hell not Minoso? I saw both Minoso and Mazeroski play and I'd take Minnie any day. He was just as good fielding his position and a hell of a lot better hitter.


I totally agree that Minoso was a much better hitter.
Maz was selected into the hall because of his fielding, double plays.
I found this out many yrs ago. As the pivot man on DP's Maz caught the ball against his glove not in his glove. By doing this he eliminated reaching into his glove to speed up the DP possibility.
I don't believe any 2nd baseman or ss did this before or after Maz.
It takes quite a bit of practice and confidence.

Lip Man 1
11-05-2011, 08:34 PM
Tom:

Here's why:

1. First Latin "star" in major league baseball.
2. Seven time A.L. All Star (Hit .300 in All Star Game)
3. Career .298 batter. Hit over .300 eight times.
4. At various times led the A.L. in hits, triples, hit by pitches and steals.
5. Named A.L. Rookie of the Year
6. Won three Gold Gloves
7. At age 51 singled off the Angels Sid Monge in 1976.

Not to shabby for a guy who didn't get a chance in the big leagues until he was 24 is it?

Lip

MinnieMinoso
11-05-2011, 10:00 PM
As you can probably tell by my sig, Minnie is my favorite Sox player that I have seen play. For those of you who did not see him play and are doubting if he should be voted in, all I can say is you should have seen him play and I think you might think differently. He did not leave anything in the tank every day he came to play.

By the way Lip, Minnie barely got beat out for rookie of the year by Gil Mcdougald in 1951. In his rookie season he hit 326, had an OBP of 422, 31 stolen bases, 112 runs scored and 76 RBI. Mcdougald hit 306, 396 OBP, 14 stolen bases, 72 runs scored. Think the eastern writers may have been a little prejudiced?

Lip Man 1
11-05-2011, 10:46 PM
Minnie:

Minnie was voted rookie of the year by The Sporting News in 1951.

Lip

ZombieRob
11-06-2011, 01:13 AM
If Ozzie Smith is in why not Minoso? So Ozzie Smith was a great fielder and did flips, one of the few who was a media darling that got in because of it. Jim Rice who well deserved it took forever to get in. HOF is a sham. It's all abot ass kissing.

TomBradley72
11-06-2011, 06:07 AM
Tom:

Here's why:

1. First Latin "star" in major league baseball.
2. Seven time A.L. All Star (Hit .300 in All Star Game)
3. Career .298 batter. Hit over .300 eight times.
4. At various times led the A.L. in hits, triples, hit by pitches and steals.
5. Named A.L. Rookie of the Year
6. Won three Gold Gloves
7. At age 51 singled off the Angels Sid Monge in 1976.

Not to shabby for a guy who didn't get a chance in the big leagues until he was 24 is it?

Lip

A great career- and he's a great guy- but I think this falls short of HoF credentials-your first point is an interesting one- was he the "Jackie Robiinson" of Latin players?

Fenway
11-06-2011, 08:25 AM
My take on the others....

Buzzie Bavasi - excellent GM

Ken Boyer - borderline

Gil Hodges - died at 47 just as he was becoming one of the best managers in the game. He is beloved in New York. ( he has a chance )

Charlie Finley - Bill Veeck is in the HoF so Finley should be as well. He will NEVER get 12 votes.

Jim Kaat - I think he has the best chance.

Tony Oliva - great hitter - borderline

Allie Reynolds - no - I think he was helped greatly by the NYY offense.

Ron Santo - He angered too many people - he will be denied again.

Luis Tiant - hard for me to be objective about Luis - one of the great money pitchers of all time. He pitched a lot of years with a bad Indians club. borderline

Lip Man 1
11-06-2011, 11:38 AM
Tom:

Many people in and around baseball feel that he was. Even Minnie has admitted that he put up with a lot of stuff due to his heritage but like Jackie he kept his mouth shut...unlike Jackie, Minnie tried to overcome it differently, by keeping a big smile on his face and trying to make friends with everyone.

I certainly think that derserves some serious consideration by the committee... if it was a factor for Jackie's induction (and by all accounts it was) as the first African American, than Minnie deserves the same ground rules as the first Latin/ Hispanic star in MLB.

Lip

TDog
11-06-2011, 02:14 PM
My take on the others....

Buzzie Bavasi - excellent GM

Ken Boyer - borderline

Gil Hodges - died at 47 just as he was becoming one of the best managers in the game. He is beloved in New York. ( he has a chance )

Charlie Finley - Bill Veeck is in the HoF so Finley should be as well. He will NEVER get 12 votes.

Jim Kaat - I think he has the best chance.

Tony Oliva - great hitter - borderline

Allie Reynolds - no - I think he was helped greatly by the NYY offense.

Ron Santo - He angered too many people - he will be denied again.

Luis Tiant - hard for me to be objective about Luis - one of the great money pitchers of all time. He pitched a lot of years with a bad Indians club. borderline

An interesting analysis. Frankly, I'm surprised Gil Hodges isn't in already. I can only imagine what an insult it would be to the Ron Santo legacy if the committee gives the nod to Hodges while passing over Santo. An appropriate insult that would make me smile, if not laugh.

Jim Kaat, like Tommy John, is probably a Hall-of-Famer if Bert Blyleven is. But it doesn't work that way. It isn't a matter of this guy is in, this guy should be.

Tony Oliva was a special hitter, but his injuries shortened his career. His most lasting legacy may be that he helped change Major League Baseball as we know it. He went from being one of the stars in the American League to being the poster boy for the designated hitter. At a time when the American League had fewer offensive stars to draw fans and was dominated by strong pitching. Part of the campaign the pro-DPH owners employed argued that it was save the career of Oliva and others like him. Great hitters need no longer retire when they couldn't chase down fly balls. (The P in DPH was dropped when people began to realize the designated hitter wasn't pinch-hitting for the pitcher every time he came up in the No. 9 spot, but but replacing the pitcher in the lineup altogether.)

As it turned out, Oliva wasn't a very good DH, and the rule didn't save his career (although post-injury Harold Baines ended up having the DH career people expected Oliva to have). But while the AL with the DH left Oliva behind, I don't believe it would have passed without him. Keeping the Mickey Mantles around wasn't a winning argument because Mantle wasn't a very good hitter at the end.

That doesn't get Oliva into the Hall of Fame, but it makes him more than a footnote in the history of baseball.

SI1020
11-06-2011, 04:02 PM
Tom:

Many people in and around baseball feel that he was. Even Minnie has admitted that he put up with a lot of stuff due to his heritage but like Jackie he kept his mouth shut...unlike Jackie, Minnie tried to overcome it differently, by keeping a big smile on his face and trying to make friends with everyone.

I certainly think that derserves some serious consideration by the committee... if it was a factor for Jackie's induction (and by all accounts it was) as the first African American, than Minnie deserves the same ground rules as the first Latin/ Hispanic star in MLB.

Lip He was definitely one of the most popular players in my childhood. Despite a totally different era in a Chicago that most here would not recognize, Minnie was a popular, even dare I say it loved player by Sox fans.

Fenway
11-06-2011, 04:16 PM
He was definitely one of the most popular players in my childhood. Despite a totally different era in a Chicago that most here would not recognize, Minnie was a popular, even dare I say it loved player by Sox fans.

Of the good Red Sox teams in the 70's, Tiant was by far the most popular Red Sox player.. (yes more than Yaz)...

Tiant and Kaat are very very close

http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

Met Minnie in a Lakeview bar a few years ago... I guess he lived near Belmont and Broadway at the time.

http://www.brendanspubchicago.com/_/rsrc/1261522274766/minnie-large-crop-0.13-0.03-0.98-0.9-brt-41.jpg?height=252&width=357

BleacherBandit
11-06-2011, 04:48 PM
I've always considered the Veterans' Committee (or what ever they've chosen to call this particular one) as a second rate entry to the HOF. Some of the recent picks (someone mentioned Mazeroski) have obviously been of sentimentality. I don't rule out Minnie because, in addition to being a memorable player (That's the primary consideration for the Veterans' Committee, IMO), he could actually play proficiently on both sides of the field.

Let him in.

Noneck
11-06-2011, 08:20 PM
I would have liked to see Billy Pierce on this ballot.

Lip Man 1
11-06-2011, 08:40 PM
I don't think Billy is eligible anymore although I hope I'm wrong on this.

Lip

Lip Man 1
11-06-2011, 08:51 PM
It's interesting that I just received an e-mail tonight from a member of the Sox front office inviting me to a "Minnie-forum" the Sox are hosting on November 17th.

The Sox have decided to take a very proactive approach in this to try to help get him inducted. They are also hoping to try to set up a conference call with Minoso and historian Adrian Burgos, who can speak to the "Cuban Cometís" candidacy with web sites and blogs devoted to the White Sox.

I think this is a great idea, I offered some suggestions on individuals who could be of great help in this matter and wished them well in this.

Lip

Fenway
11-06-2011, 10:23 PM
I don't think Billy is eligible anymore although I hope I'm wrong on this.

Lip

He is eligible - but he has to be nominated

The Era Committees maintain the high standards for earning election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame, with focus on three time periods: Expansion (1973-present); Golden (1947-1972) and Pre-Integration (1871-1946), as opposed to the previous four Committees on Baseball Veterans, which considered the four categories of candidates. Three separate electorates consider by eras a single composite ballot of managers, umpires, executives and long-retired players on an annual basis, with Pre-Integration Era Committee candidates to be considered at the 2012 Winter Meetings for Induction in 2013 and the Expansion Era Committee candidates to be considered again at the 2013 Winter Meetings for Induction in 2014 following the Expansion Era Committee's initial vote last year. The Golden Era Committee will next meet at the 2014 Winter Meetings for Induction in 2015.

Candidates remain eligible in perpetuity through the Era Committee process, with new ballots constructed by the Historical Overview Committee the fall prior to each election.

The 10 Golden Era finalists were selected by the BBWAA-appointed Historical Overview Committee from all eligible candidates among Managers, Umpires, Executives and Long-Retired Players whose most significant career impact was realized during the 1947-72 time period. Eligible candidates include: Players who played in at least 10 major league seasons, who are not on Major League Baseball's ineligible list, and have been retired for 21 or more seasons; and Managers, Umpires and Executives with 10 or more years in baseball.

TDog
11-06-2011, 11:27 PM
I've always considered the Veterans' Committee (or what ever they've chosen to call this particular one) as a second rate entry to the HOF. Some of the recent picks (someone mentioned Mazeroski) have obviously been of sentimentality. I don't rule out Minnie because, in addition to being a memorable player (That's the primary consideration for the Veterans' Committee, IMO), he could actually play proficiently on both sides of the field.

Let him in.

About half of the the Hall of Famers who played at least five years for the White Sox were Veterans Committee selections. That includes Nellie Fox and Ed Walsh. Larry Doby, who spent less time with the Sox, was a Veterans Committee selection as well. I don't consider Nellie Fox or Ed Walsh to be second-rate Hall of Famers. For that matter, I don't consider Ray Schalk a second-rate Hall of Famer.

Daver
11-06-2011, 11:46 PM
I have the same respect for the baseball HOF as I do for the orts from last nights dinner, but I hope Minnie gets in.

BleacherBandit
11-07-2011, 12:03 AM
About half of the the Hall of Famers who played at least five years for the White Sox were Veterans Committee selections. That includes Nellie Fox and Ed Walsh. Larry Doby, who spent less time with the Sox, was a Veterans Committee selection as well. I don't consider Nellie Fox or Ed Walsh to be second-rate Hall of Famers. For that matter, I don't consider Ray Schalk a second-rate Hall of Famer.

Now, of course there are exceptions to this rule. If Minnie was let in I wouldn't question it at all. He was an exceptional player whose stats perhaps belied his full ability.

I only contend that if a player somehow missed his first opportunity to be inducted, each entry thereafter is up for scrutiny.

TDog
11-07-2011, 12:20 AM
Now, of course there are exceptions to this rule. If Minnie was let in I wouldn't question it at all. He was an exceptional player whose stats perhaps belied his full ability.

I only contend that if a player somehow missed his first opportunity to be inducted, each entry thereafter is up for scrutiny.

BBWAA selections should be up for scrutiny as much as Veterans Committee selections. Ed Walsh better represents baseball greatness than does Bert Blyleven. I would argue that Nellie Fox was at least as worthy as Joe Morgan. There are those who would argue that Minnie Minoso should be in and Jim Rice should not.

LITTLE NELL
11-07-2011, 05:15 AM
Minoso should be in for the same reasons that Monte Irvin is in. Outstanding Negro League stats and a damn good Major League career.
The big difference is that Irvin played in NY. If Minnie had played for the Yankees, Dodgers or Giants, he would be in already and my guess is that Billy Pierce if he had played in NY would also be in.

Golden Sox
11-07-2011, 07:37 AM
I can't help but wonder, why isn't Dick Allen on the HOF ballot? Most of his offensive numbers are better than the Pizza Man (Ron Santo). Granted Santo was better defensively than Allen, but there is no way I would ever vote for the Pizza Man instead of Dick Allen. Allens offensive numbers would of even been better if he played his games in the bandbox known as Wrigley Field. The overwhelming majority of the pitchers of that era would of rather pitched to the Pizza Man than Dick Allen.

SI1020
11-07-2011, 07:38 AM
Minoso should be in for the same reasons that Monte Irvin is in. Outstanding Negro League stats and a damn good Major League career.
This big difference is that Irvin played in NY. If Minnie had played for the Yankees, Dodgers or Giants, he would be in already and my guess is that Billy Pierce if he had played in NY would also be in. You are so right.

MikeW
11-07-2011, 11:46 AM
Good Luck Minnie, Hope you get in.

soxinem1
11-07-2011, 11:55 AM
There is plenty of evidence both direct and circumstantial that Santo was a "me first" type player.

That's part of the reason he never won anything in his life.

Lip

That and his really annoying self-hype efforts for HOF induction.

Most players use that 'It would be an honor to be in the HOF' or 'Just to be considered for HOF induction is a privilege' kind of line.

But Santo's ridiculous escapade and whining was just plain absurd.

cards press box
11-09-2011, 03:09 AM
Why?

How about this for a reason: baseball's color line kept Minnie from reaching the big leagues until 1951 when he was at least 26 years old and was probably older than that. He was a star level outfielder until 1961. But for the color line, Minnie would have had another 5 or 6 years in the big leagues. Because of the color line, Minnie didn't play big league baseball in his early twenties. That injustice artificially deflated Minnie's career statistics.

That is, of course, the basic problem here: by its actual length, Minoso's career appears to be a full career but it wasn't. And neither injury nor poor play shortened his career. It was the color line.

So, to me, this is a fairly early easy call. Minoso's career stats -- that is, the stats he compiled after his 26th birthday (at the earliest) -- are superior to just about any left fielder you want to find with the exception of guys like Ted Williams or Stan Musial. Importantly, Williams and Musial are not average Hall of Famers, they are the very top rung. And in his HOF induction speech, Williams himself called for the Hall to correct the injustice that the color line inflicted on such great players as Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige by placing them where they belong -- in the Hall of Fame. Hasn't Minnie earned that same honor?

cards press box
11-09-2011, 03:11 AM
That and his really annoying self-hype efforts for HOF induction.

Most players use that 'It would be an honor to be in the HOF' or 'Just to be considered for HOF induction is a privilege' kind of line.

But Santo's ridiculous escapade and whining was just plain absurd.

I have one thought on this topic: the best former Chicago player not in the Hall of Fame is Minnie Minoso, the second best is Jim Kaat and the third best is Tommy John.

SI1020
11-09-2011, 08:36 AM
I have one thought on this topic: the best former Chicago player not in the Hall of Fame is Minnie Minoso, the second best is Jim Kaat and the third best is Tommy John. Yes, once again Billy Pierce is just chopped liver.

TommyJohn
11-09-2011, 09:45 AM
That and his really annoying self-hype efforts for HOF induction.

Most players use that 'It would be an honor to be in the HOF' or 'Just to be considered for HOF induction is a privilege' kind of line.

But Santo's ridiculous escapade and whining was just plain absurd.


I think it is interesting to note that the first year Santo was eligible to be voted in by the very writers who saw him play-1980-only 4 voted for him. He was dumped from the ballot after one year (although he was restored in 1985).

cards press box
11-09-2011, 11:34 AM
Yes, once again Billy Pierce is just chopped liver.

You are absolutely right -- don't know what I was thinking. How could I forget Billy Pierce? As he showed in his great 1962 season with the National League champion San Francisco Giants (when Billy went 16-6 and 12-0 at Candlestick Park), Billy's numbers would have been unbelievable if he had gotten any kind of decent run support during his career.

OK, here is a revised list of the best former Chicago players not in the Hall of Fame:

1. Minnie Minoso
2. Billy Pierce
3. Jim Kaat
4. Tommy John

sox1970
11-09-2011, 08:42 PM
Clubhouse Confidential on MLBN did a nice job today making a case for Minoso.

They did a similar piece for Santo yesterday.

Both belong in.

Noneck
11-09-2011, 11:44 PM
You are absolutely right -- don't know what I was thinking. How could I forget Billy Pierce? As he showed in his great 1962 season with the National League champion San Francisco Giants (when Billy went 16-6 and 12-0 at Candlestick Park), Billy's numbers would have been unbelievable if he had gotten any kind of decent run support during his career.

OK, here is a revised list of the best former Chicago players not in the Hall of Fame:

1. Minnie Minoso
2. Billy Pierce
3. Jim Kaat
4. Tommy John

Kaat was with the Sox for 2 years and a month and half. Granted the two years he was here were good years but considering he had a 25 years career, I dont consider him a Sox. Tommy John is similar to this. Both would be wearing at least a couple different caps going into the Hall before a Sox cap.

My list would be Pierce then Minnie.

TDog
11-10-2011, 12:34 PM
Kaat was with the Sox for 2 years and a month and half. Granted the two years he was here were good years but considering he had a 25 years career, I dont consider him a Sox. Tommy John is similar to this. Both would be wearing at least a couple different caps going into the Hall before a Sox cap.

My list would be Pierce then Minnie.

Of course, the cap isn't the choice of the player. Jim Kaat, of course, will be remembered as a Twin. I don't see how else he could be remembered. When the Twins were through with him, he went to the White Sox, who he used to beat on a regular basis while pitching for Minnesota. Then he continued to play after the White Sox. Just as Thome will be remembered as an Indian, Kaat will be remembered as a Twin.

Tommy John, though, is very much tied with the White Sox. He had his first career success with the Sox after being developed in the Indians' system along with Sam McDowell, Luis Tiant and Sonny Siebert in the early 1960s. In his autobiography (where I assume he wasn't misquoted), John wrote that his days with the White Sox were very happy ones. He was traded to the Dodgers for Dick Allen after the 1971 season, but he was injured a couple of years later and had the surgery. He played for other teams, but he doesn't have the sort of ties with any team he had with the White Sox. He actually played more seasons for the Yankees than he did with other teams, but pitched in fewer games and pitched fewer innings than he did for the White Sox.

Lip Man 1
11-10-2011, 01:05 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=11&id=3341

Lip

Noneck
11-10-2011, 05:42 PM
Tommy John, though, is very much tied with the White Sox. He had his first career success with the Sox after being developed in the Indians' system along with Sam McDowell, Luis Tiant and Sonny Siebert in the early 1960s. In his autobiography (where I assume he wasn't misquoted), John wrote that his days with the White Sox were very happy ones. He was traded to the Dodgers for Dick Allen after the 1971 season, but he was injured a couple of years later and had the surgery. He played for other teams, but he doesn't have the sort of ties with any team he had with the White Sox. He actually played more seasons for the Yankees than he did with other teams, but pitched in fewer games and pitched fewer innings than he did for the White Sox.

John's career was quite gypsy like. Even though he was one of my favs when with the Sox, he was 3rd fiddle to Horlen and Peters. His best years were with the yanks and dodgers and those caps would be worn before the Sox.

cards press box
11-10-2011, 07:15 PM
Kaat was with the Sox for 2 years and a month and half. Granted the two years he was here were good years but considering he had a 25 years career, I dont consider him a Sox.

Of course, the cap isn't the choice of the player. Jim Kaat, of course, will be remembered as a Twin. I don't see how else he could be remembered. When the Twins were through with him, he went to the White Sox, who he used to beat on a regular basis while pitching for Minnesota. Then he continued to play after the White Sox. Just as Thome will be remembered as an Indian, Kaat will be remembered as a Twin.

I agree with both of you guys that Kaat is primarily remembered as a Twin. How could he be remembered as anything else? After all, Kaat played parts of 15 seasons for the Twins/Senators franchise.

But Kaat left his mark in Chicago, too. Consider this: Kaat had three 20 win seasons in his storied 25 season career and two of them were for the White Sox. Kaat went 21-13 in 1974 with an ERA of 2.92; Kaat then went 20-14 in 1975 with an ERA of 3.11. Those were two of his best seasons.

Tommy John, though, is very much tied with the White Sox. He had his first career success with the Sox after being developed in the Indians' system along with Sam McDowell, Luis Tiant and Sonny Siebert in the early 1960s. In his autobiography (where I assume he wasn't misquoted), John wrote that his days with the White Sox were very happy ones. He was traded to the Dodgers for Dick Allen after the 1971 season, but he was injured a couple of years later and had the surgery. He played for other teams, but he doesn't have the sort of ties with any team he had with the White Sox. He actually played more seasons for the Yankees than he did with other teams, but pitched in fewer games and pitched fewer innings than he did for the White Sox.

I absolutely agree with this statement. John established himself with the White Sox and pitched seven strong seasons here. Yes, he pitched for a lot of other clubs (most notably with the Yankees), I definitely think of John as a White Sox standout.

Both would be wearing at least a couple different caps going into the Hall before a Sox cap.

Of course, the cap isn't the choice of the player.

The cap is not the choice of the player and rightly so. That is, essentially, an historical judgment left to the baseball historians. Of course, I wasn't saying that the HOF should install a plaque of Jim Kaat with a White Sox cap. The cap that would be placed on Kaat would certainly be a Twins cap. With Tommy John, the answer is less clear. Given the prevalent east coast bias in all things American sport, the HOF might well put a Yankee cap on John. But in my view, a White Sox cap from the '60's would be the appropriate histroical choice.

My list would be Pierce then Minnie.

That is a close call but I would put Minnie first because of the five or so years in the big leagues during Minnie's early to mid 20's that the color line took from him and, really, from history.

Noneck
11-10-2011, 08:26 PM
That is a close call but I would put Minnie first because of the five or so years in the big leagues during Minnie's early to mid 20's that the color line took from him and, really, from history.

Yes those 5 years certainly did adversely affect his chances but if the color line did not take its toll on Minnie, those 5 years probably would have been with clev and maybe he would be wearing a indian cap not a Sox cap going into the hall. Then we couldnt claim him either.

TDog
11-10-2011, 10:06 PM
... The cap is not the choice of the player and rightly so. That is, essentially, an historical judgment left to the baseball historians. Of course, I wasn't saying that the HOF should install a plaque of Jim Kaat with a White Sox cap. The cap that would be placed on Kaat would certainly be a Twins cap. With Tommy John, the answer is less clear. Given the prevalent east coast bias in all things American sport, the HOF might well put a Yankee cap on John. But in my view, a White Sox cap from the '60's would be the appropriate histroical choice. ...

The concern for the Hall of Fame is not so much is reflecting East Coast bias as it is reflecting as much of baseball as it can. Reggie Jackson's plaque has a Yankees cap instead of an A's cap, but he he was the straw that stirred the drink in New York. Gary Carter accomplished more with the Mets than with the Expos, but the Expos needed representation more than New York.

Tommy John had two great seasons with the Yankees. The rest of his time in New York was forgettable. As baseball becomes increasingly mercenary, I don't see any Hall of Famer who had a good season or two with the Yankees stuck with a Yankees cap on his plaque.

Nellie_Fox
11-11-2011, 12:07 AM
The cap is not the choice of the player and rightly so. That is, essentially, an historical judgment left to the baseball historians.My understanding is that the player is still allowed his preference as long as it makes sense. They reserve the right to overrule if it's something clearly stupid like Boggs wanting to get paid to have a Devil Rays cap on his plaque.

TDog
11-12-2011, 06:27 PM
My understanding is that the player is still allowed his preference as long as it makes sense. They reserve the right to overrule if it's something clearly stupid like Boggs wanting to get paid to have a Devil Rays cap on his plaque.

You might be right. Still, I thought I read that Gary Carter had preferred the Mets, which would make sense, but baseball chose the Expos. Although that couldn't have been a huge slight to Carter because he spoke French during his induction ceremony.

soxfanreggie
11-14-2011, 03:42 PM
Judging by the article, the "Golden Era Committee" is just the new name for the Veterans Committee.

Bingo...and for those asking when the vote is:

The committee will vote on the 10 candidates at the Winter Meetings in Dallas on December

cards press box
11-30-2011, 03:39 AM
Clubhouse Confidential on MLBN did a nice job today making a case for Minoso.

They did a similar piece for Santo yesterday.

Both belong in.

I just came across this recent article (http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/making-the-case-for-minnie-minoso/) from the New York Times advocating Minnie's candidacy to the HOF. I hope he makes it.

DrCrawdad
11-30-2011, 06:12 AM
I just came across this recent article (http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/making-the-case-for-minnie-minoso/) from the New York Times advocating Minnie's candidacy to the HOF. I hope he makes it.

I have to admit that I invest very little time in HOF considerations of players, even Sox players. And as far as Minnie I guess I was satisfied with the summations of what I had heard amongst many baseball writers and some fans, that Minnie was good but not HOF worthy.

That article was very enlightening to me. Thanks for posting that link.

Lip Man 1
11-30-2011, 10:55 AM
Phil Rogers' column yesterday has a number of links to Minnie related material:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-your-morning-phil-santo-minoso-reyes-20111129,0,2772954.story

Lip

TommyJohn
12-05-2011, 09:44 AM
Vote results will be announced today: I am hoping against hope that Minoso makes it, but I will stick with my fearless prediction of Ron Santo and Buzzy Bavasi.

sox1970
12-05-2011, 09:50 AM
Vote results will be announced today: I am hoping against hope that Minoso makes it, but I will stick with my fearless prediction of Ron Santo and Buzzy Bavasi.

Could be an announcement at 10am.

I think Santo is almost a lock this time around, which I agree with.

Hodges may make it too, but I think Minoso is more deserving.

We'll see soon.

edit: Santo made it. That's it. He got 15 out of 16.

Needed 12 votes.

Kaat 10
Hodges and Minoso got 9
Oliva 8 votes

Lip Man 1
12-05-2011, 10:38 AM
I wish they would make public who voted for whom on these type ballots.

Lip

SI1020
12-05-2011, 10:52 AM
I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt Minoso ever gets in. Too bad for those of you who never got to see him play. He was an exciting and entertaining ball player.

Lip Man 1
12-05-2011, 01:23 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-reinsdorf-baffled-by-minosos-omission-from-hall-of-fame-20111205,0,3301580.story

Lip

russ99
12-05-2011, 01:32 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-reinsdorf-baffled-by-minosos-omission-from-hall-of-fame-20111205,0,3301580.story

Lip

I agree with Jerry, the only reason not to keep him out is the whole multiple decades thing...

It's sad that hatred for Veeck and his stunts seem to diminish Minoso's candidacy for some voters.

Fenway
12-05-2011, 02:31 PM
JR stunned by results

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111205&content_id=26094720&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws

Golden Sox
12-05-2011, 02:34 PM
Hitler said if you keep repeating something enough times, people believe it. The bad guys on the northside have promoted the Pizza Man for the HOF relentlessly on there Channel 9 TV broadcasts for years. It finally got him into the HOF today. Nobody in my lifetime was promoted for the HOF more than the Pizza Man. You couldn't watch one of there games without being reminded that he should be in the HOF. Nobody has promoted Minoso for the HOF in the White Sox organization until recently. Perhaps if they promote Minnie for the next 25 years like WGN did with the Pizza Man, maybe Minnie will get in.

g0g0
12-05-2011, 03:08 PM
Hitler said if you keep repeating something enough times, people believe it. The bad guys on the northside have promoted the Pizza Man for the HOF relentlessly on there Channel 9 TV broadcasts for years. It finally got him into the HOF today. Nobody in my lifetime was promoted for the HOF more than the Pizza Man. You couldn't watch one of there games without being reminded that he should be in the HOF. Nobody has promoted Minoso for the HOF in the White Sox organization until recently. Perhaps if they promote Minnie for the next 25 years like WGN did with the Pizza Man, maybe Minnie will get in.

Ahhhhh, Godwin's Law at it's very best. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
12-05-2011, 03:42 PM
gogo:

It is a fact that the Tribune Company and their affilated businesses were heavily involved in promoting Santo to say nothing of his constant self-promoting about it.

My own opinion is that he was a borderline candidate but I'm not going to throw a fit because he got in. What I am bothered about greatly is his constant complaining about the "injustice" of it all.

To me that's rather unseemly.

Also bothering me is that some were promoting him based on his physical difficulties, it bothered me because a lot of his medical issues were caused by he himself including continuing to drink heavily after doctors told him that could only make his diabetic condition worse.

Lip

g0g0
12-05-2011, 04:14 PM
gogo:

It is a fact that the Tribune Company and their affilated businesses were heavily involved in promoting Santo to say nothing of his constant self-promoting about it.

My own opinion is that he was a borderline candidate but I'm not going to throw a fit because he got in. What I am bothered about greatly is his constant complaining about the "injustice" of it all.

To me that's rather unseemly.

Also bothering me is that some were promoting him based on his physical difficulties, it bothered me because a lot of his medical issues were caused by he himself including continuing to drink heavily after doctors told him that could only make his diabetic condition worse.

Lip

I understand. It was the Nazi reference that made me roll my eyes. I agree it was annoying (and I never cared for him as a broadcaster either), but the man had the right to say what he felt. I think if anything people should be mad at the media and Cubs for giving him an outlet.

I definitely agree on the diabetes thing too. Not so much the cause of it, but that some thought it should/might weigh in favor of him getting votes. Candidates should be looked at by their play on the field. The other things make for a good TV movie, but stats and comparison of those stats by eras, position, etc. are what counts to me.

Johnny Mostil
12-05-2011, 10:51 PM
I understand. It was the Nazi reference that made me roll my eyes. I agree it was annoying (and I never cared for him as a broadcaster either), but the man had the right to say what he felt. I think if anything people should be mad at the media and Cubs for giving him an outlet.

I definitely agree on the diabetes thing too. Not so much the cause of it, but that some thought it should/might weigh in favor of him getting votes. Candidates should be looked at by their play on the field. The other things make for a good TV movie, but stats and comparison of those stats by eras, position, etc. are what counts to me.

Me, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Golden Sox
12-06-2011, 09:07 AM
Santo (the Pizza Man) couldn't carry Dick Allens jockstrap. Allens offensive numbers are better than the Pizza Mans. If your going on numbers for the HOF, why isn't Allen in the HOF? 99% of the pitchers from that era would of rather pitched to the Pizza Man than Allen.

asindc
12-06-2011, 09:20 AM
Santo (the Pizza Man) couldn't carry Dick Allens jockstrap. Allens offensive numbers are better than the Pizza Mans. If your going on numbers for the HOF, why isn't Allen in the HOF? 99% of the pitchers from that era would of rather pitched to the Pizza Man than Allen.

... and the other 1% were nuts for preferring the opposite.

g0g0
12-06-2011, 09:48 AM
Santo (the Pizza Man) couldn't carry Dick Allens jockstrap. Allens offensive numbers are better than the Pizza Mans. If your going on numbers for the HOF, why isn't Allen in the HOF? 99% of the pitchers from that era would of rather pitched to the Pizza Man than Allen.

Maybe he should be, but what does he have to do with Santo? You usually look at current HOFers, not people who didn't get in. He compares very favorably with the current 3rd basers who are in.

Milw
12-06-2011, 10:10 AM
Maybe he should be, but what does he have to do with Santo? You usually look at current HOFers, not people who didn't get in. He compares very favorably with the current 3rd basers who are in.
That's the thing. I wouldn't have voted for Santo myself, but he's more deserving than Allen because of the positions they played--the bar is higher for 1B than 3B.

ode to veeck
12-06-2011, 03:05 PM
Tom:

Here's why:

1. First Latin "star" in major league baseball.
2. Seven time A.L. All Star (Hit .300 in All Star Game)
3. Career .298 batter. Hit over .300 eight times.
4. At various times led the A.L. in hits, triples, hit by pitches and steals.
5. Named A.L. Rookie of the Year
6. Won three Gold Gloves
7. At age 51 singled off the Angels Sid Monge in 1976.

Not to shabby for a guy who didn't get a chance in the big leagues until he was 24 is it?

Lip

You have to also consider his negro league career where he not only starred but led his team to the title in his youth in years when he was denied access to playing in MLB. He actually was already seasoned with a few seasons of high caliber ball when he finally came into the league with the Indians and White Sox.

October26
12-06-2011, 03:55 PM
I am so disappointed for Orestes "Minnie" Minoso. As many others have said, Minoso is such a deserving MLB HOF candidate and one of the most amazing persons that I have had the honor of meeting.

ode to veeck
12-06-2011, 05:33 PM
How about this for a reason: baseball's color line kept Minnie from reaching the big leagues until 1951 when he was at least 26 years old and was probably older than that. He was a star level outfielder until 1961. But for the color line, Minnie would have had another 5 or 6 years in the big leagues. Because of the color line, Minnie didn't play big league baseball in his early twenties. That injustice artificially deflated Minnie's career statistics.

That is, of course, the basic problem here: by its actual length, Minoso's career appears to be a full career but it wasn't. And neither injury nor poor play shortened his career. It was the color line.

So, to me, this is a fairly early easy call. Minoso's career stats -- that is, the stats he compiled after his 26th birthday (at the earliest) -- are superior to just about any left fielder you want to find with the exception of guys like Ted Williams or Stan Musial. Importantly, Williams and Musial are not average Hall of Famers, they are the very top rung. And in his HOF induction speech, Williams himself called for the Hall to correct the injustice that the color line inflicted on such great players as Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige by placing them where they belong -- in the Hall of Fame. Hasn't Minnie earned that same honor?

I think the consensus these days is Minnie was actually born in '22 and was 28 when he started his great 17 year MLB career