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doublem23
10-31-2011, 10:26 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Tony-La-Russa-retires-St-Louis-Cardinals-manager-World-Series-seven-games-six-pennants-three-world-championships-103111

AzureJazzMan
10-31-2011, 10:29 AM
How soon til JR offers him a nice cushy job?

pythons007
10-31-2011, 11:02 AM
Well I guess finish on a high note, but he's really close to coming in second alltime for wins.

SoxSpeed22
10-31-2011, 11:12 AM
Way to go out on top you crazy bastard.

Soxman24
10-31-2011, 11:16 AM
What a great way to go out. Enjoy retirement Tony you earned it.

Johnny Mostil
10-31-2011, 11:29 AM
Well I guess finish on a high note, but he's really close to coming in second alltime for wins.

That was my first thought, too. Then I realized it's only second and he probably has no interest in trying to hang around to pass Mack (3,731) for first.

Fenway
10-31-2011, 11:35 AM
Well I guess finish on a high note, but he's really close to coming in second alltime for wins.

He certainly is a lock now for Cooperstown.

Sure he could catch McGraw next season but this way he leaves St. Louis on top. 2 months ago it looked like he was leaving St. Louis anyways after what looked to be a very disappointing season.

The Cards took advantage of Atlanta falling apart and were off the radar as the pundits thought it would be San Francisco that would sneak in.

I would not be shocked if he came back in a year or two. There are whispers Bobby Cox wants to return next season somewhere.

mrfourni
10-31-2011, 11:36 AM
Any rumors of Francona as a replacement?

Does this effect Pujols' decision?

Lip Man 1
10-31-2011, 11:50 AM
I think JR will offer him an advisory position but I can't say for sure if he'll take it.

I've been told Tony has been suffering from shingles this year and I don't know how that could impact his future.

He does go out on top though and that's the best way to go.

Hall of Fame in five years.

Lip

LITTLE NELL
10-31-2011, 12:10 PM
One of JRs biggest mistakes was the firing of LaRussa along with Sportsvision and letting Harry Caray go to the Cubs.
If JR had kept LaRussa would he have won a WS in 93,2000 an 08 and maybe a few more division championships like in 03 and 06?
We will never know but it's good food for thought.

Fenway
10-31-2011, 12:16 PM
One of JRs biggest mistakes was the firing of LaRussa along with Sportsvision and letting Harry Caray go to the Cubs.
If JR had kept LaRussa would he have won a WS in 93,2000 an 08 and maybe a few more division championships like in 03 and 06?
We will never know but it's good food for thought.

Hawk did Tony a huge favor...3 weeks later he was in Oakland.

Truth is JR's biggest mistake was SELLING SportsVision. Had the White Sox kept ownership they would be right there with the Yankees and Red Sox awash in cable tv money.

jdm2662
10-31-2011, 12:22 PM
One of JRs biggest mistakes was the firing of LaRussa along with Sportsvision and letting Harry Caray go to the Cubs.
If JR had kept LaRussa would he have won a WS in 93,2000 an 08 and maybe a few more division championships like in 03 and 06?
We will never know but it's good food for thought.

As I said in another thread recently, you don't win games without talent. The Sox didn't have the talent to compete until 1990. I doubt he would've stuck around until then. Even so, managers/head coaches run their courses and it time for a change. Had Hawk not fired him in 1986, chances are he would've left before the Sox had the talent to compete agian.

thomas35forever
10-31-2011, 12:36 PM
Congrats on a hell of a career, Tony. No better way to go out than on top. Enjoy whatever time you have left.

Fenway
10-31-2011, 12:37 PM
Tony should be a lock for Cooperstown but I wonder if the writers will punish him for being a steroid enabler.

1986 was a horror show - Hawk was the GM in name but Drysdale was in many ways the co-GM. Don was a big advocate on Fisk being in LF thinking he would become another Yogi Berra.

1986 had to be the only time in MLB history that a team built its ad campaign around a GM.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AXhWXW1FFeA/TEL78U5ZHaI/AAAAAAAAJuc/wGVENsOrHBw/s1600/the+hawk+wants+you.gif

Lip Man 1
10-31-2011, 12:38 PM
This and That:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-white-sox-next-for-la-russa-20111031,0,819586.story

-------------------------------

Nell:

It's a misconception that JR "let" Harry go to the Cubs. Granted he wasn't fond of him to be sure but it is a fact that the Sox offered Harry more money to return in 1982 to broadcast their games than the Cubs did.

Harry ultimately left because of "SportsVision" and the fact that he and the owners did not get along (although they had a good relationship when JR and EE took over in early 1981.)

Lip

LITTLE NELL
10-31-2011, 12:39 PM
Hawk did Tony a huge favor...3 weeks later he was in Oakland.

Truth is JR's biggest mistake was SELLING SportsVision. Had the White Sox kept ownership they would be right there with the Yankees and Red Sox awash in cable tv money.

The original Sportsvision was a disaster, you needed a box with a goofy antenna on it and not too many people signed up for it. (I did). Meanwhile the Cubs at the same time in history are on WGN for free not only in Chicago but all over the country. Thats the main reason why they draw over 3 million a year and we draw 2,000,000.

LITTLE NELL
10-31-2011, 12:44 PM
This and That:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-white-sox-next-for-la-russa-20111031,0,819586.story

-------------------------------

Nell:

It's a misconception that JR "let" Harry go to the Cubs. Granted he wasn't fond of him to be sure but it is a fact that the Sox offered Harry more money to return in 1982 to broadcast their games than the Cubs did.

Harry ultimately left because of "SportsVision" and the fact that he and the owners did not get along (although they had a good relationship when JR and EE took over in early 1981.)

Lip

I should have stated my post better. I know that Sportsvision was the main reason Harry left us, he felt that his fan base would be a drop in the bucket compared to WGN and the Cubs. History proves him right.

Fenway
10-31-2011, 12:48 PM
The original Sportsvision was a disaster, you needed a box with a goofy antenna on it and not too many people signed up for it. (I did). Meanwhile the Cubs at the same time in history are on WGN for free not only in Chicago but all over the country. Thats the main reason why they draw over 3 million a year and we draw 2,000,000.

I still have my ONTV/SportsVision box from 1982. I remember the installer telling me I was his first install in Rogers Park.

But as we have discussed over and over, in 1982 it was the only way for the Sox to get a full slate of games on TV. The Bulls and Hawks were TV homeless as well.

palehozenychicty
10-31-2011, 12:58 PM
Hawk did Tony a huge favor...3 weeks later he was in Oakland.

Truth is JR's biggest mistake was SELLING SportsVision. Had the White Sox kept ownership they would be right there with the Yankees and Red Sox awash in cable tv money.

Indeed. He was prescient with the vision, but didn't hold on long enough. Now franchises are looking for that connection. It's why the Phils and Rangers will be threats to win for quite awhile. Cable programming is king.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Daver
10-31-2011, 01:00 PM
One of JRs biggest mistakes was the firing of LaRussa along with Sportsvision and letting Harry Caray go to the Cubs.
If JR had kept LaRussa would he have won a WS in 93,2000 an 08 and maybe a few more division championships like in 03 and 06?
We will never know but it's good food for thought.

I cheered the day LaRussa was shown the door.

veeter
10-31-2011, 01:17 PM
Good for him. Retired on top and on his own terms.

TheOldRoman
10-31-2011, 01:33 PM
As I said in another thread recently, you don't win games without talent. The Sox didn't have the talent to compete until 1990. I doubt he would've stuck around until then. Even so, managers/head coaches run their courses and it time for a change. Had Hawk not fired him in 1986, chances are he would've left before the Sox had the talent to compete agian.Not saying you are wrong, but LaRussa won titles with Rafael Belliard and Nick Punto starting at 2B; Jeff Weaver and Kyle Lohse in the rotation. He got far more out of his teams than almost anybody could.

Noneck
10-31-2011, 01:41 PM
I cheered the day LaRussa was shown the door.

I did also and have cheered about him leaving ever since that time.

SI1020
10-31-2011, 01:43 PM
My view is that JR who referred to Caray along with Piersall as "scum' was more than happy to see him leave for the greener pastures of WGN. Make him an offer to make yourself look good, and be pretty sure he'll take the bait from your crosstown rival. JR is a lot of things but dumb isn't one of them. As for LaRussa leaving the Sox in 86, I don't see how anyone could celebrate Hawk as GM. In any case TLR really crafted his micro managing matchup crazy style with Oakland. Now everyone copies regardless of whether it makes sense in a particular game or for a particular team.

LITTLE NELL
10-31-2011, 01:47 PM
I cheered the day LaRussa was shown the door.

I cheered the day OG was shown the door.

jdm2662
10-31-2011, 02:40 PM
Not saying you are wrong, but LaRussa won titles with Rafael Belliard and Nick Punto starting at 2B; Jeff Weaver and Kyle Lohse in the rotation. He got far more out of his teams than almost anybody could.

He also had probably the best hitter of our generation, a top notch catcher, and he also had Berkman this time around, who decided to re-invent his career. He had plenty of top notch talent in Oakland as well. Let's not pretend he didn't have anything to work with. No one wins without talent. However, you can certainly NOT win WITH talent. LaRussa took what he had and made it work. He deserves the proper recongization for it. My point is, those Sox teams of the late 80s were quite brutal. He wasn't winning anything with those teams, despite how good of a manager you are. I think he would've been fired evenually or left on his own.

GlassSox
10-31-2011, 02:45 PM
I cheered the day OG was shown the door.

Me too

Daver
10-31-2011, 02:48 PM
I cheered the day OG was shown the door.

I wasn't happy when he was announced as manager, so I was relieved when he was shown the door.

Fenway
10-31-2011, 02:52 PM
Tony was the last active link to Bill Veeck.

ComiskeyBrewer
10-31-2011, 03:09 PM
I hate tony as a human being, but man, that guy was one heck of a coach.

LITTLE NELL
10-31-2011, 04:07 PM
He also had probably the best hitter of our generation, a top notch catcher, and he also had Berkman this time around, who decided to re-invent his career. He had plenty of top notch talent in Oakland as well. Let's not pretend he didn't have anything to work with. No one wins without talent. However, you can certainly NOT win WITH talent. LaRussa took what he had and made it work. He deserves the proper recongization for it. My point is, those Sox teams of the late 80s were quite brutal. He wasn't winning anything with those teams, despite how good of a manager you are. I think he would've been fired evenually or left on his own.

Actually he was not the manager of those late 80's teams, he was fired in mid-1986. Jim Fregosi had the mis-fortune of mananging those teams.

Frontman
10-31-2011, 04:15 PM
As much as the man annoys me; I have to give credit where credit is due. LaRussa is one of the greatest managers of all-time; and he definitely has earned his retirement.

Enjoy it Tony.

TDog
10-31-2011, 04:23 PM
Does LaRussa come out of retirement to manage the All-Star Game?

I never thought he was such a bad manager. One summer afternoon driving through Missouri, I listened to fans calling in KMOX, saying he didn't know how to manage because he had an American League DH mentality that cost the Cardinals games by sacrificing defense. Harry Caray rode LaRussa hard (as Harry Caray did to many, which is why few players before he was paid to be warm and fuzzy with the Cubs, hated Harry Caray). There was the assertion that the only realson LaRussa had a job in baseball was that the White Sox were too cheap to hire a real manager. I think LaRussa has proven him wrong.

Jim Leyland, of course, was a LaRussa protege, having worked as his third base coach for awhile with the White Sox. Ozzie Guillen, who also managed a team to a World Series win, played for LaRussa. I don't know how much of a steroids enabler LaRussa was, or at least how much blame can be legitimately placed on LaRussa for the steroid era considering that steroid use was going on in Oakland after LaRussa left and among players who never played for him.

As I understand it, he very nearly left the A's to return to the White Sox as manager at one point, but he backed out out of a sense of loyalty to the A's. And if the White Sox hadn't hired Ventura a few weeks ago, here would be speculation LaRussa would be finishing his career in Chicago.

jdm2662
10-31-2011, 04:25 PM
Actually he was not the manager of those late 80's teams, he was fired in mid-1986. Jim Fregosi had the mis-fortune of mananging those teams.

I'm well aware of this. My point was, he more than likely would've left during that stretch either by resigning or firing for a change. The Sox had very little talent in the late 80s. Fergosi, after leaving the Sox, ended up taking the Phillies to the World Series years later. He had more talent to work with there.

You don't win without talent. It's possibly he might've gotten a few more wins out of them, but that's it. He had plenty of talent to work with in St. Louis and Oakland. However, that can only get you so far. You have to mold the rest of the team together, find roles for them, and make the proper calls that fits the strengths of your team. He did this very well in his career. But, let's not pretend he took a sack of **** and made them winners. That happens almost never in sports. He very well would've not made it until 1990 with teams the Sox fielded in the late 80s.

TheOldRoman
10-31-2011, 04:26 PM
He also had probably the best hitter of our generation, a top notch catcher, and he also had Berkman this time around, who decided to re-invent his career. He had plenty of top notch talent in Oakland as well. Let's not pretend he didn't have anything to work with. No one wins without talent. However, you can certainly NOT win WITH talent. LaRussa took what he had and made it work. He deserves the proper recongization for it. My point is, those Sox teams of the late 80s were quite brutal. He wasn't winning anything with those teams, despite how good of a manager you are. I think he would've been fired evenually or left on his own.I agree with your points. He undoubtedly had some great players (and lots of steroids in Oakland), but he also had some really bad players paying key parts to his title teams. I just think that LaRussa'a teams overacheived more often than not. Maybe they underachieved in Oakland for some time, I am too young to know, but I don't think any of his Cardinals teams underachieved. It's amazing to contrast that to the level of underachieving demonstrated by the White Sox in the past decade. Of course, it would be pointless to come up with a hypothetical about the Sox hiring LaRussa circa 2000, but I think in that scenario the team would have made the playoffs at least twice more.

SI1020
10-31-2011, 04:33 PM
Call me naive or worse but I don't believe the steroid thing had reached critical mass when LaRussa was managing those Oakland teams. I believe it was more in the beginning stages. I hope that some day a brave and fearless writer will document this in greater detail with names, dates and places. Looking at LaRussa's career I'd say his first championship team was before the big wave and the last 2 after.

jdm2662
10-31-2011, 04:35 PM
I agree with your points. He undoubtedly had some great players (and lots of steroids in Oakland), but he also had some really bad players paying key parts to his title teams. I just think that LaRussa'a teams overacheived more often than not. Maybe they underachieved in Oakland for some time, I am too young to know, but I don't think any of his Cardinals teams underachieved. It's amazing to contrast that to the level of underachieving demonstrated by the White Sox in the past decade. Of course, it would be pointless to come up with a hypothetical about the Sox hiring LaRussa circa 2000, but I think in that scenario the team would have made the playoffs at least twice more.



Lip has stated many times JR and LaRussa had a hand shake deal to return to the Sox in the late 90s. However, since JR went over Schuler's head, he threw a fit and probably threatened to quit (similar to Jim Finks after Old Man Halas hired Ditka in 1982).

It's very possible the Sox would've made the playoffs more had this happened. It's also very possible nothing would've changed, or the Sox could've been worse. The only year I think a better manager could've made a difference was probably 2003. 2001 and 2004 had too many injuries, and it was a miracle they even finished over .500. 2009 is debateable, but if you look at the roster objectively opening day, that was not a division winner roster. However, since it took only 87 wins to win the division, it's certainly possible.

Lip Man 1
10-31-2011, 04:39 PM
JDM:

Since we're playing the "what if" game you can also speculate that if LaRussa stayed on, the Sox might not have been as bad in the late 80's / late 90's.

Tony in his history was a "veteran" guy, didn't play rookies much if you look at his entire body of work.

With him around the Sox might have had more talent because he would have insisted on it.

If the story printed in The Sporting News after Bevington was fired was true (written by Dave Nightgale) that was the reason a handshake deal for LaRussa (and Duncan) to reutrn to the Sox fell apart. LaRussa (according to the story) insisted on having a larger role on the actual player decisions and Schueler was upset by it. He knew Tony probably would have let go or traded Ron's "prized" prospects (who generally didn't amount to much) in favor of vets and the payroll would have gone up.

And yes Nightengale's story said that Schueler basically said, "it's him or me" to JR.

Lip

DSpivack
10-31-2011, 04:41 PM
Lip has stated many times JR and LaRussa had a hand shake deal to return to the Sox in the late 90s. However, since JR went over Schuler's head, he threw a fit and probably threatened to quit (similar to Jim Finks after Old Man Halas hired Ditka in 1982).

It's very possible the Sox would've made the playoffs more had this happened. It's also very possible nothing would've changed, or the Sox could've been worse. The only year I think a better manager could've made a difference was probably 2003. 2001 and 2004 had too many injuries, and it was a miracle they even finished over .500. 2009 is debateable, but if you look at the roster objectively opening day, that was not a division winner roster. However, since it took only 87 wins to win the division, it's certainly possible.

As long as we're playing what if, if TLR still is managing the Sox in the late 80s maybe he gets them to win a few more games and they slip a couple spots in the 1989 draft, ending up with Jeff Juden or Charles Johnson instead of Frank Thomas.

downstairs
10-31-2011, 04:46 PM
1986 had to be the only time in MLB history that a team built its ad campaign around a GM.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AXhWXW1FFeA/TEL78U5ZHaI/AAAAAAAAJuc/wGVENsOrHBw/s1600/the+hawk+wants+you.gif

I'm thinking the Cubs will do so in 2012. Already selling Epstein jerseys. :rolleyes:

Frontman
10-31-2011, 04:47 PM
Call me naive or worse but I don't believe the steroid thing had reached critical mass when LaRussa was managing those Oakland teams. I believe it was more in the beginning stages. I hope that some day a brave and fearless writer will document this in greater detail with names, dates and places. Looking at LaRussa's career I'd say his first championship team was before the big wave and the last 2 after.

You mean when Conseco was on the A's? Sorry, but I don't buy that the A's were a clean team. Jose himself has admitted to being in front of all of the steroid use; ie a pioneer, so it isn't hard to believe he was juiced.

However, I will say this. During the era (late 80's through 2008) LaRussa was managing against teams that also were juicing. So, its hard to say "Well, he wouldn't of won without juiced players" because it seems every team had its fair share of users.

No matter how you slice it, Tony managed 3 teams to the championship; steroids or otherwise. You can't tell me that in 2006, as things were coming to the surface, every player everywhere decided to go clean; as we know that isn't the case.

jdm2662
10-31-2011, 04:48 PM
JDM:

Sine we're playing the "what if" game you can also speculate that if LaRussa stayed on, the Sox might not have been as bad in the late 80's / late 90's.

Tony in his history was a "veteran" guy, didn't play rookies much if you look at his entire body of work.

With him around the Sox might have had more talent because he would have insisted on it.

Lip

If that's the case, like mentioned below, the Sox probably don't get all their core players via the draft, especially Frank. So, without all those core players, we are looking at a different team. In the end, we don't have Doc Brown and able to turn back the clock 25 or so years. And, please don't. I don't want to re-live my teen years again (well at least until I graduated high school...).

soxinem1
10-31-2011, 05:00 PM
Well I guess finish on a high note, but he's really close to coming in second alltime for wins.

I thought the same thing. I thought he would try to go for McGraw's win total.

Not to take anything away from what STL did this year, but I sure did not feel this was one of Tony's better managing jobs this post-season (in the World Series), and the explanations for some of his strategies were in line with Terry Bevington's 'Call to the Pen' with no reliever even warming up.

While entertaining, this World Series will forever be know for both teams exhibiting some of the poorest baseball fundamentals ever witnessed.

All that said, Tony is a sure-fire 1st ballot HOF Manager, like him or not.

And if JR gets him back with a 'VP In Charge of Blah, Blah, Blah' positions, I would not at all be surprised.

soxinem1
10-31-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm thinking the Cubs will do so in 2012. Already selling Epstein jerseys. :rolleyes:

I wonder how much looting of the BOS roster Theo will try to attempt.

TheOldRoman
10-31-2011, 05:09 PM
I wonder how much looting of the BOS roster Theo will try to attempt.If he is anything like the geniuses who left the Boston front office during his tenure, he will likely send Starlin Castro to the Red Sox for a couple B level prospects.

PaleHoser
10-31-2011, 05:51 PM
I'm guessing Juan Agosto will present LaRussa at his HoF induction.

soxinem1
10-31-2011, 06:15 PM
Tony in his history was a "veteran" guy, didn't play rookies much if you look at his entire body of work.

I have to really disagree with you on that one. LaRussa's history with all of his teams, from Baines in 1980 to the present STL roster, is loaded with rookies given a chance, and succeeding, to be solid MLB players.

The list is of LaRussa rookies he broke in is endless, both pitching and position players. I'm not sure how you devised that thought.

True, he might not have had a team loaded with rookies, but he broke in several of them almost every year he was a manager. And yes, Scheuler's prized prospects were even worse than KW's.

Maybe that is why he wanted to get rid of them if he came back....

Chez
10-31-2011, 06:32 PM
I'm guessing Juan Agosto will present LaRussa at his HoF induction.

Only if Salome Barojas is busy that weekend. :D:

WhiteSox5187
10-31-2011, 07:00 PM
I don't think I like him much as a person but boy it's hard to argue with all those wins he got. If Hawk hadn't fired him in 1986 I doubt he would have spent his whole career with the White Sox and he might not have won any titles, but had Hawk NOT been brought in to be the GM and Roland Hemond stayed on in 1986 things might have been very different indeed.

Zakath
10-31-2011, 07:25 PM
2728-2365, .536 winning percentage, 12 division titles (1 with CWS, 4 with OAK, 7 with STL), 6 pennants (3 AL, 3 NL), 3 World Series titles (2 with STL, 1 with OAK).

In 33 seasons, teams he managed finished last in their division once (1993).

If he's not the best manager in the past 20-30 years, he's definitely in the conversation.

slavko
10-31-2011, 07:40 PM
1986 was a horror show - Hawk was the GM in name but Drysdale was in many ways the co-GM. Don was a big advocate on Fisk being in LF thinking he would become another Yogi Berra.

1986 had to be the only time in MLB history that a team built its ad campaign around a GM.

Forgot the first, can't forget the second. I wonder if or why JR didn't meddle when Hawk wanted to pull the trigger, since he has done a little meddling in his day.

Tony was the last active link to Bill Veeck.

Kessinger failed to pinch hit late in a blowout loss and Veeck launched him for the then mysterious Tony.

I always learn new angles from these history threads. You guys are good.

soxfanreggie
10-31-2011, 07:43 PM
Best of luck in retirement TLR! A for-sure HOFer and probably secured his spot on the baseball manager Mount Rushmore for the time being.

Brian26
10-31-2011, 07:54 PM
In 33 seasons, teams he managed finished last in their division once (1993).


Wow, its hard to believe the A's fell off the table that hard in '93. That's after winning the division four of the five previous seasons.

DeadMoney
10-31-2011, 07:55 PM
Interesting story here (http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7175302/chicago-white-sox-interested-adding-tony-la-russa-front-office?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter), with quotes from JR and floats the possibility of TLR joining the White Sox front office.

TommyJohn
10-31-2011, 11:00 PM
He was hired as White Sox manager the same day the Thurman Munson died.

Fenway
10-31-2011, 11:37 PM
Forgot the first, can't forget the second. I wonder if or why JR didn't meddle when Hawk wanted to pull the trigger, since he has done a little meddling in his day.


Kessinger failed to pinch hit late in a blowout loss and Veeck launched him for the then mysterious Tony.

I always learn new angles from these history threads. You guys are good.

I am going to take an educated guess that Einhorn was the one who wanted Hawk as GM. The first few years Eddie was the owner out front (JR was still spending more time with Balcor then ) When JR left Balcor and also bought the Bulls he became the lead guy.

Einhorn ruffled people in MLB when he convinced Peter Ueberroth to leave NBC for CBS which was a disaster and then cooked up The Baseball Network in 1994 that was split between NBC and ABC.

TBN was tolerated until the 1995 playoffs and then fans rebelled when only one game was fed to a market during the LDS. In Boston the only way we saw NL games was that the cable company got CBC out of Montreal which because of the Expos connection carried the Atlanta series.

Einhorn is rumored to own slightly more of the Sox than JR but gave The Chairman his proxy. NOBODY outside of the inner circle knows exactly how the White Sox ownership breaks down. They have managed to keep that info private for 30 years.

Lip Man 1
10-31-2011, 11:56 PM
Slavko:

I seem to recall Rich Lindberg writing (I'd have to look it up) that Kessinger came to Veeck and basically said, 'the team isn't responding to me, if you think a change is needed go ahead...' Bill did.

Lip

Lamp81
11-01-2011, 12:34 AM
I vividly remember Tony being booed heavily when he would come out for his pitching changes. Sox fans were getting fed up with his handling of the bullpen.

I also remember the Billy Martin replacement rumors, and the game that Billy was sighted in Comiskey Park, presumably interviewing for the job.

A. Cavatica
11-01-2011, 06:35 AM
Congratulations to Tony on a great career. And I'm glad he wasn't the choice to replace Ozzie as field manager; it's too late in that career for him to lead a rebuilding effort. I hope we give him a job as special advisor to the GM, nothing more.

TommyJohn
11-01-2011, 08:10 AM
I vividly remember Tony being booed heavily when he would come out for his pitching changes. Sox fans were getting fed up with his handling of the bullpen.

I also remember the Billy Martin replacement rumors, and the game that Billy was sighted in Comiskey Park, presumably interviewing for the job.

I remember that the media approached Jerry Reinsdorf to ask about the rumors and Reinsdorf started crying and went into a self-pity jag about "what you guys are doing to poor Tony."

slavko
11-01-2011, 09:53 AM
Slavko:

I seem to recall Rich Lindberg writing (I'd have to look it up) that Kessinger came to Veeck and basically said, 'the team isn't responding to me, if you think a change is needed go ahead...' Bill did.

Lip

Interesting. Bill was upset about the failure to pinch hit. Either way, Bill was a man of action. Let us know what you can find.

PaleHoser
11-01-2011, 09:54 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AXhWXW1FFeA/TEL78U5ZHaI/AAAAAAAAJuc/wGVENsOrHBw/s1600/the+hawk+wants+you.gif

I've looked at this pocket schedule a bazillion times in the last 25 years and just noticed something new.

Who is the big, burly guy in the black T-shirt hugging Hawk and why is he pointing at me?

TommyJohn
11-01-2011, 10:16 AM
I've looked at this pocket schedule a bazillion times in the last 25 years and just noticed something new.

Who is the big, burly guy in the black T-shirt hugging Hawk and why is he pointing at me?

I...um...don't get it. Am I stupid?

Lip Man 1
11-01-2011, 11:18 AM
Great column:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/8531290-419/telander-tony-la-russa-could-be-sox-trump-card.html

Lip

Oblong
11-01-2011, 11:59 AM
I...um...don't get it. Am I stupid?



Hawk's jacket looks like it could be the biceps and forearm of a guy wearing a black T Shirt.

tstrike2000
11-01-2011, 12:46 PM
I've looked at this pocket schedule a bazillion times in the last 25 years and just noticed something new.

Who is the big, burly guy in the black T-shirt hugging Hawk and why is he pointing at me?

Maybe it's a Sox Rorschach test and it means you want to be hugged by a burly guy in a black shirt.

In reality, the black is just a background. What you think is the burly guy's left arm, is a tan jacket that Hawk is wearing. You can make out the lapel in the jacket.

soxinem1
11-01-2011, 01:02 PM
Maybe it's a Sox Rorschach test and it means you want to be hugged by a burly guy in a black shirt.

In reality, the black is just a background. What you think is the burly guy's left arm, is a tan jacket that Hawk is wearing. You can make out the lapel in the jacket.

There were several things done that year that at the time made me wonder if other teams would eventually copy them, if they worked out:

1. The 24-man roster (teams actually did utilize this until 1990).
2. Coaches for all segments of the game.
3. Using the GM as a marketing piece.

I'm kind of glad the third event did not happen. If the 1986 White Sox would have been successful, could you imagine the future precedent of marketing your GM?

Picture Jim Hendry or Ron Schueler in team commercials!!!!!

TomBradley72
11-01-2011, 01:05 PM
I remember being very disappointed when LaRussa was fired by Hawk in what was the most incompetent GM tenure I have very witnessed- and then to end up with a retread like Fregosi as the replacement- ugh.

When LaRussa was named manager in 1979- he had an immediate impact- converting a very mediocre team- to a .500 (27-27) ball club over the last 2 months of the season- simply by making better use of the existing roster.

It's a shame he was let go- we might have avoided the Fregosi/Lemont/Bevington/Manuel eras (I liked Torborg).

I don't understand how any rational Sox fan could prefer their tenures over LaRussa. The fact that he has an uninterrupted 33 year career as a major league manager says alot of his ability and his reputation within MLB.

TomBradley72
11-01-2011, 01:27 PM
Great column:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/8531290-419/telander-tony-la-russa-could-be-sox-trump-card.html

Lip

Except Telander seems to be under the impression that JR was the White Sox owner in 1979 when LaRussa was named manager. :?:

SI1020
11-01-2011, 02:19 PM
You mean when Conseco was on the A's? Sorry, but I don't buy that the A's were a clean team. Jose himself has admitted to being in front of all of the steroid use; ie a pioneer, so it isn't hard to believe he was juiced.

However, I will say this. During the era (late 80's through 2008) LaRussa was managing against teams that also were juicing. So, its hard to say "Well, he wouldn't of won without juiced players" because it seems every team had its fair share of users.

No matter how you slice it, Tony managed 3 teams to the championship; steroids or otherwise. You can't tell me that in 2006, as things were coming to the surface, every player everywhere decided to go clean; as we know that isn't the case. Never said the A's were an all clean team. By the way I took your post so seriously I went to my local public library and read Juiced by Jose Canseco. He names names all right, but still manages to leave a lot out as far as dates, places and how many he knew or thought he knew were juicing on each team. I still like my original time line a lot. The book left me wanting to see some old film of Mark McGwire playing from 1988-90. It would go a long way for me to confirm or refute in my own mind charges Canseco made in his book.

TommyJohn
11-01-2011, 02:48 PM
Hawk's jacket looks like it could be the biceps and forearm of a guy wearing a black T Shirt.

Still don't see it. It's in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

wassagstdu
11-01-2011, 03:15 PM
... floats the possibility of TLR joining the White Sox front office.

I'll bet KW would be just thrilled to have someone in his organization of LaRussa's stature with a direct line to Reinsdorf.

Lip Man 1
11-01-2011, 03:31 PM
SI:

McGwire was nowhere near as big in those days as he later became. He was tall and big but not 'superhero' big with arms that looked like Popeye's.

Lip

kba
11-01-2011, 04:08 PM
Tony was the last active link to Bill Veeck.

What about Baines? Veeck personally scouted him and signed him in 1977.

SI1020
11-01-2011, 04:32 PM
SI:

McGwire was nowhere near as big in those days as he later became. He was tall and big but not 'superhero' big with arms that looked like Popeye's.

Lip That is my recollection too but Canseco tells a different story.

Frontman
11-01-2011, 04:41 PM
That is my recollection too but Canseco tells a different story.

And again, the eye test isn't the most reliable proof as far as steroid use. He could of been on stuff all along, and only "roided up" in latter seasons.

It's the culture Bud Selig and the powers that be in baseball created. We don't know the truth of it, because we're not allowed to know. They created the culture so the water isn't ever clear as to who did what when.

And again, Conseco hasn't been off on much when it comes to his book. Makes me believe the A's were on stuff; just like everyone else was on stuff.

SI1020
11-01-2011, 04:51 PM
And again, the eye test isn't the most reliable proof as far as steroid use. He could of been on stuff all along, and only "roided up" in latter seasons.

It's the culture Bud Selig and the powers that be in baseball created. We don't know the truth of it, because we're not allowed to know. They created the culture so the water isn't ever clear as to who did what when.

And again, Conseco hasn't been off on much when it comes to his book. Makes me believe the A's were on stuff; just like everyone else was on stuff. He only names McGwire in his book. He names some others, particularly when he played in Texas and his second stint with the A's. I can see certain gaps and inconsistencies in his book, which is not well written IMO. In any case, after reading it I became more convinced that the decade or so after the 1994 strike was when steroid use really reached epic proportions. As for McGwire, Canseco claims he did not use steroids in his rookie year. If he did in fact use them from 88 on, then he really upped his dosage or used different ones when he broke the home run record. "Roided up", in your words.

Fenway
11-01-2011, 05:37 PM
ALCS 1988
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1988/B10050BOS1988.htm

The Fenway crowd was loudly chanting S-T-E-R-O-I-D-S when Jose came to bad. Being a ham he flexed his muscles back at the crowd...and in the 4th inning just hit a monster home run of Bruce Hurst.

The crowd was prompted in part by a Tom Boswell column that morning that the Boston Globe reprinted pointing fingers at Canseco.

After the game Gary Bender who was the ABC announcer asked LaRussa about the crowd and Tony replied "Jose is doing everything by the book as far as baseball is concerned." :?:

Steroids had just exploded on the international sports world as sprinter Ben Johnson was stripped of his gold medal in the 88 Olympics.

I do think that is when the issue came out of the closet.

SI1020
11-01-2011, 05:57 PM
ALCS 1988
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1988/B10050BOS1988.htm

The Fenway crowd was loudly chanting S-T-E-R-O-I-D-S when Jose came to bad. Being a ham he flexed his muscles back at the crowd...and in the 4th inning just hit a monster home run of Bruce Hurst.

The crowd was prompted in part by a Tom Boswell column that morning that the Boston Globe reprinted pointing fingers at Canseco.

After the game Gary Bender who was the ABC announcer asked LaRussa about the crowd and Tony replied "Jose is doing everything by the book as far as baseball is concerned." :?:

Steroids had just exploded on the international sports world as sprinter Ben Johnson was stripped of his gold medal in the 88 Olympics.

I do think that is when the issue came out of the closet. I remember that race very well. Johnson looked back triumphantly at the rest of the pack after he crossed the finish line.

Brian26
11-01-2011, 06:30 PM
I've looked at this pocket schedule a bazillion times in the last 25 years and just noticed something new.

Who is the big, burly guy in the black T-shirt hugging Hawk and why is he pointing at me?

That has to be Willie Horton... "Power hitters" batting coach.

chisoxfanatic
11-01-2011, 06:50 PM
I'm sad to see him retire. I always had utmost respect for LaRussa. I wonder if this has any impact on Albert Pujols' decision on whether to stay or go.

Fenway
11-01-2011, 06:50 PM
Bob Ryan remembers the first time he saw Tony - July of 1978 at Comiskey

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2011/11/01/la_russa_a_managerial_mover_and_shaker_retires/?page=full

slavko
11-01-2011, 07:18 PM
Great column:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/8531290-419/telander-tony-la-russa-could-be-sox-trump-card.html

Lip

Lord love a duck! Not. Bench. Coach. Pleeeeeeease! Nooooo!

Hitmen77
11-02-2011, 04:14 PM
Hawk did Tony a huge favor...3 weeks later he was in Oakland.

Truth is JR's biggest mistake was SELLING SportsVision. Had the White Sox kept ownership they would be right there with the Yankees and Red Sox awash in cable tv money.

I really don't think it would have been that simple. The cold, honest truth is that the White Sox brand is not nearly as marketable as the Yankees or Red Sox brand.

Do you really think that if JR had owned his own cable sports station this whole time, that the White Sox would have a huge RSN empire similar to YES or NESN? I just find that hard to believe. Simply holding on to SportsVision wouldn't have made the White Sox a big draw and money maker on cable when they are the #2 team in a market up against the Cubs/WGN monster.

YES works for the Yankees because they're.....well...the Yankees. The Red Sox are in a market that is totally obsessed with that team. The White Sox are nowhere close to that.

tebman
11-02-2011, 04:22 PM
Great column:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/8531290-419/telander-tony-la-russa-could-be-sox-trump-card.html

Lip

Except Telander seems to be under the impression that JR was the White Sox owner in 1979 when LaRussa was named manager. :?:

I saw that too. I wonder how many people called or wrote Telander to call him on it. Another casualty of the newspaper layoffs: an editor would've caught that mistake.

Hitmen77
11-02-2011, 04:24 PM
I still have my ONTV/SportsVision box from 1982. I remember the installer telling me I was his first install in Rogers Park.

But as we have discussed over and over, in 1982 it was the only way for the Sox to get a full slate of games on TV. The Bulls and Hawks were TV homeless as well.

It may have been the Sox best/only option for keeping games on TV in 1982, but it was really the way they "sold" it to the fans. They never leveled with the fans and said "hey, we're going to pay TV because there are no free TV outlets available to us. We're doing our best to keep the Sox accessible to fans and bear with us as Chicago transitions to cable TV in a few years". No - it was Eddie Einhorn saying smugly on TV to all of us that fans better get used to paying $15/month for the Sox because that's the way of the future. He was essentially giving us fans a big "**** you".

Maybe this wouldn't have been an epic failure if the lack of a free TV outlet didn't come to a head until 5 years later when Chicagoland was pretty much all wired for cable. Maybe at that point, they could have gotten off the ground at $2/month or something without the need for an over the air pay channel.

TommyJohn
11-02-2011, 04:32 PM
It may have been the Sox best/only option for keeping games on TV in 1982, but it was really the way they "sold" it to the fans. They never leveled with the fans and said "hey, we're going to pay TV because there are no free TV outlets available to us. We're doing our best to keep the Sox accessible to fans and bear with us as Chicago transitions to cable TV in a few years". No - it was Eddie Einhorn saying smugly on TV to all of us that fans better get used to paying $15/month for the Sox because that's the way of the future. He was essentially giving us fans a big "**** you".

Maybe this wouldn't have been an epic failure if the lack of a free TV outlet didn't come to a head until 5 years later when Chicagoland was pretty much all wired for cable. Maybe at that point, they could have gotten off the ground at $2/month or something without the need for an over the air pay channel.

Einhorn's whole problem was that he was a Network TV exec-he was used to bullying and talking down to the unwashed masses in an abusive way-or at the very least treating them like cattle. He honestly expected people to swallow his abuse and like it. His problem was that he did it in a town that had another team on free TV. ALl people had to do was say "**** you" right back by choosing the Cubs or staying away. It may shock Eddie to know this, but us unwashed masses of non-millionaire, non-Network Executive types resent being talked down to.

Frontman
11-02-2011, 04:33 PM
I saw that too. I wonder how many people called or wrote Telander to call him on it. Another casualty of the newspaper layoffs: an editor would've caught that mistake.

Telander? Making a mistake?!?!?!?

Perish the thought; that would be unheard of from Rick! I mean, like offending a listening base for a radio station, forcing his co-host to move to weekends, then proceeding to quit on the air level of a mistake!

Oh wait, nevermind....


I have no use for Telander anymore. Talk about someone living off of the popularity of what others did (*cough*Ditka*cough*being the beat writer on the Bears in 1985*cough*.)

TommyJohn
11-02-2011, 04:35 PM
Telander? Making a mistake?!?!?!?

Perish the thought; that would be unheard of from Rick! I mean, like offending a listening base for a radio station, forcing his co-host to move to weekends, then proceeding to quit on the air level of a mistake!

Oh wait, nevermind....


I have no use for Telander anymore. Talk about someone living off of the popularity of what others did (*cough*Ditka*cough*being the beat writer on the Bears in 1985*cough*.)




Telander can't stop whining about his Cubbies' drought and the unfairness of it all. I expect self-flagellation next, maybe sackcloth and ashes.

jdm2662
11-02-2011, 05:14 PM
Telander? Making a mistake?!?!?!?

Perish the thought; that would be unheard of from Rick! I mean, like offending a listening base for a radio station, forcing his co-host to move to weekends, then proceeding to quit on the air level of a mistake!

Oh wait, nevermind....


I have no use for Telander anymore. Talk about someone living off of the popularity of what others did (*cough*Ditka*cough*being the beat writer on the Bears in 1985*cough*.)




His claim to fame was living right behind the Bears practice field. My sister gave me his book for Christmas. I had no intention of reading it, but she bought it for me (it was published in 2005 and re-released in 2010). So, I did during jury duty. The book was nothing but another Ditka ass licking and it was full of errors. I found one on the very first page.

SI1020
11-02-2011, 06:02 PM
I saw that too. I wonder how many people called or wrote Telander to call him on it. Another casualty of the newspaper layoffs: an editor would've caught that mistake. He also wrote that Reinsdorf doesn't meddle.

Lip Man 1
11-02-2011, 06:20 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2096

Lip