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View Full Version : Kenny Considered Konerko as Player-Manager


Brian26
10-09-2011, 10:51 PM
According to Bill Madden...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2011/10/06/2011-10-06_robin_ventura_with_no_managerial_experience_to_ replace_ozzie_guillen_with_chicag.html

getonbckthr
10-09-2011, 10:57 PM
I support Kenny Williams but i'm starting to wonder what the hell is going on in his head...

hi im skot
10-09-2011, 11:01 PM
Notice that it doesn't say it was seriously considered.

DickAllen72
10-09-2011, 11:03 PM
According to Bill Madden...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2011/10/06/2011-10-06_robin_ventura_with_no_managerial_experience_to_ replace_ozzie_guillen_with_chicag.html
This has to be a joke, right? Please tell me this was a joke. Konerko as player/manager??? No way. Just no way.

soltrain21
10-09-2011, 11:03 PM
The only player manager I enjoyed was Bill Bellamy.

Marqhead
10-09-2011, 11:21 PM
Quite frankly I think this would have been amazing.

central44
10-09-2011, 11:33 PM
I think this would have been fun. Not necessarily practical. But to be a fan of the only team to have a player-manager would have been...interesting, to say the least! Which is more than I could say about the 2011 Sox.

An improvement is an improvement :D:

spongyfungy
10-09-2011, 11:40 PM
Here's a quote from Kenny (http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/sox-drawer/post/-?blockID=573550) : “As I'd freely admit right now, Paul Konerko can be a major league manager just because I've had 10 years worth of conversations with Paul Konerko,” Williams said. “And as a result, I've come to the conclusion that this guy certainly has the necessary stuff. He's a little busy right now, you know, becoming an MVP. But one day he too will hopefully be considered if he wants to do it along the same line. This might be out of left field or a surprise, but to people who are within the organization, not so much.”And I remember the morning after the Ventura, Kenny did an interview with Corey Mcpherin on Fox, (http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/sports/mlb/white_sox/robin-ventura-named-new-white-sox-manager-ozzie-guillen-ken-williams-20111006) Kenny has Konerko on his short list of possible candidates down the line but he can start managing a club now because he has the skillset.

I half expected him to say AJ when he mentioned the player was on the team right now so hearing PK's name was surprising. I'd be surprised if they even considered the player-manager route though.

MrT27
10-10-2011, 12:00 AM
I think this would have been kinda cool and I don't think it would have been a worse hire then Ventura at the moment.

KingXerxes
10-10-2011, 12:05 AM
While I don't think Konerko as a player-manager is much of an idea, I confidently predict he would not get into as much trouble as the last player-manager in the major leagues.

Who was the White Sox last player-manager? Kessinger?

KingXerxes
10-10-2011, 12:13 AM
Personally I would have liked Ken Harrelson named as the manager, but I would not have relieved him of his announcing duties. Just wire him up on the "binch" and have him announce the games while he's managing.

:hawk

"Mercy...........Well ol' Hawk is going to walk out to the mound now and tell Danks to pitch Ortiz low and outside..........I'm also going to let the dad gummed umpire know the Red Sox are stealing our signs.........every time I suggest something to our pitchers, the other team seems to know it's coming."

Thome_Fan
10-10-2011, 01:55 AM
Personally I would have liked Ken Harrelson named as the manager, but I would not have relieved him of his announcing duties. Just wire him up on the "binch" and have him announce the games while he's managing.

:hawk

"Mercy...........Well ol' Hawk is going to walk out to the mound now and tell Danks to pitch Ortiz low and outside..........I'm also going to let the dad gummed umpire know the Red Sox are stealing our signs.........every time I suggest something to our pitchers, the other team seems to know it's coming."

:rolling:

soxfanatlanta
10-10-2011, 07:42 AM
That would not have ended well.

Nope, not at all.

harwar
10-10-2011, 08:13 AM
Personally I would have liked Ken Harrelson named as the manager, but I would not have relieved him of his announcing duties. Just wire him up on the "binch" and have him announce the games while he's managing.

:hawk

"Mercy...........Well ol' Hawk is going to walk out to the mound now and tell Danks to pitch Ortiz low and outside..........I'm also going to let the dad gummed umpire know the Red Sox are stealing our signs.........every time I suggest something to our pitchers, the other team seems to know it's coming."


OMG .. it's been a long time since i laughed so hard .. still the King .. :rolling:

MARTINMVP
10-10-2011, 08:19 AM
I hope this is just a joke. I hope.

Nothing screams small market team than silly stunts such as Paul Konerko being promoted as a player manager, while in the year 2011 going into 2012.

Milw
10-10-2011, 09:47 AM
Player-mangers were relatively common for much of baseball history. As much as the sabremetricians like to think to the contrary, baseball really hasn't changed much since the 1920s. I for one think it's a shame that the player-manager concept has fallen out of favor to such a degree that even mentioning that it was considered is grounds for mockery.

We'll never know if Konerko as player-manager would have been successful, but I would've enjoyed watching it.

BleacherBandit
10-10-2011, 09:53 AM
Joe Torre was a player-manager for the Mets.

Sometimes it makes sense. Sometimes it's a qualified move in retrospect.

Boondock Saint
10-10-2011, 09:55 AM
Personally I would have liked Ken Harrelson named as the manager, but I would not have relieved him of his announcing duties. Just wire him up on the "binch" and have him announce the games while he's managing.

:hawk

"Mercy...........Well ol' Hawk is going to walk out to the mound now and tell Danks to pitch Ortiz low and outside..........I'm also going to let the dad gummed umpire know the Red Sox are stealing our signs.........every time I suggest something to our pitchers, the other team seems to know it's coming."

Post more often.

102605
10-10-2011, 10:10 AM
That would have been one way to save some more $ in KW eyes.

roylestillman
10-10-2011, 10:11 AM
Post more often.

Glad to see that King has evidently signed a four year extension with WSI. The Farmio/Hawk exchanges are priceless.

tstrike2000
10-10-2011, 10:26 AM
I'm concerned about Kenny.

Foulke You
10-10-2011, 10:57 AM
Player-mangers were relatively common for much of baseball history. As much as the sabremetricians like to think to the contrary, baseball really hasn't changed much since the 1920s. I for one think it's a shame that the player-manager concept has fallen out of favor to such a degree that even mentioning that it was considered is grounds for mockery.

We'll never know if Konerko as player-manager would have been successful, but I would've enjoyed watching it.
All it would take is one team having success with it again for other teams to follow suit.

Madvora
10-10-2011, 11:03 AM
How do you deal with trades in a situation like that? One big trading chip to improve your team in the future would be off the table completely every year. If you're completely out of if in June, there's no hope of moving a guy who's also your manager.

slavko
10-10-2011, 11:33 AM
How do you deal with trades in a situation like that? One big trading chip to improve your team in the future would be off the table completely every year. If you're completely out of if in June, there's no hope of moving a guy who's also your manager.

Which is why Konerko would be a bad choice. A wily veteran at the end of his career? Different story.

JC456
10-10-2011, 12:08 PM
Someone must have reminded him of what happened with Don Kessinger as player/ manager.

aryzner
10-10-2011, 12:20 PM
The only player manager I enjoyed was Bill Bellamy.
Is this an MTV Rock n Jock softball and/or basketball reference? If so, that's awesome.

thechico
10-10-2011, 12:49 PM
I'd be OK with AJ as player-manager. :cool: He's got the brains for it. Would at least help keep salary down a little.

Flame away!

russ99
10-10-2011, 01:25 PM
Seems a major lapse of judgment by Kenny.

I can't tell if he's desperately trying to keep his job or if he's been browbeaten to do whatever Jerry wants due to his many missteps the last few years...

Nellie_Fox
10-10-2011, 02:13 PM
Seems a major lapse of judgment by Kenny.
To even consider it? Why is Konerko a worse choice than Ventura?

DumpJerry
10-10-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm just curious how many people here have actually spent quality time with Ventura, AJ and Konerko to really know what each of them is like as a baseball person and a person in general to make the statements being made here.

A. Cavatica
10-10-2011, 02:24 PM
To even consider it? Why is Konerko a worse choice than Ventura?

I'm pretty sure Konerko would've been a bad choice because the teams in which Konerko has been a clubhouse leader are the same teams that appeared to have no balls, and were just fine with losing in April because those games were somehow less important than games in September.

I'm pretty sure Ventura was a bad choice, too, but at least he's not tainted by association with the Ozzie era.

doublem23
10-10-2011, 02:28 PM
The only thing I wonder is how does a coach's visit to the mound work if the player is already on the field. Does PK have to call timeout, walk to the dugout and then walk back out? Does Cooper have to make the coach's visits (at which point, why bother not just naming him manager?)

FielderJones
10-10-2011, 02:30 PM
The only player manager I enjoyed was Bill Bellamy.

Ahem --

Nellie_Fox
10-10-2011, 02:36 PM
...at least he's not tainted by association with the Ozzie era.You mean the era where the White Sox have the only World Series win any of us have ever experienced? Wow, I understand the disatisfaction with Ozzie the last couple of years, but now just having played for him at any time "taints" you?

downstairs
10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
I'm concerned about Kenny.

Why? He thinks way outside the box. Why not consider something seemingly crazy?

I'm concerned about GM's that manage by the book. That leads to mediocrity.

Plus, he never made the decision. Just considered it. I like a GM that's willing to consider way out there ideas.

downstairs
10-10-2011, 02:43 PM
You mean the era where the White Sox have the only World Series win any of us have ever experienced? Wow, I understand the disatisfaction with Ozzie the last couple of years, but now just having played for him at any time "taints" you?

I'm with you 1000%. The Ozzie era was the best era in White Sox history. Maybe the 1950's - mid 1960's when they were constantly great, but just not as great as the Yankees. But I give the nod to Ozzie. Yes, he wore out his welcome, but he's a friggin' hero for what he brought to Chicago. End of story.

He's the ONLY White Sox manager with two playoff appearances. And we're talking about a team with 111 years experience.

Milw
10-10-2011, 02:43 PM
Ahem --
Shush, you're ruining the "Kenny is insane" narrative.

DumpJerry
10-10-2011, 02:48 PM
I'm with you 1000%. The Ozzie era was the best era in White Sox history. Maybe the 1950's - mid 1960's when they were constantly great, but just not as great as the Yankees. But I give the nod to Ozzie. Yes, he wore out his welcome, but he's a friggin' hero for what he brought to Chicago. End of story.

He's the ONLY White Sox manager with two playoff appearances. And we're talking about a team with 111 years experience.
Don't forget the 9th best winning percentage (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/managers.shtml) of thirty two managers.

tstrike2000
10-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Why? He thinks way outside the box. Why not consider something seemingly crazy?

I'm concerned about GM's that manage by the book. That leads to mediocrity.

Plus, he never made the decision. Just considered it. I like a GM that's willing to consider way out there ideas.

Thinking outside the box sometimes is fine, but in this case, I think the idea of Konerko as player/manager is silly. Like anyone here, it's just my opinion. I'm fine with first time managers being hired, but it's also nice if that manager came in having worked in a minor league system or under a manager to get the overall look of how it is to lead a team from a coaching position.

Konerko may be a smart guy, but playing under guys like Jerry Manuel and Ozzie Guillen doesn't exactly instill confidence that Konerko is anywhere near ready to lead a team as an MLB manager, at least not right now.

No, Robin Ventura doesn't have professional coaching experience either, but Robin has other things going for him. He's played and been around the game longer, has played under guys like Joe Torre, Bobby Valentine and Jim Tracy with whom Ventura credits each one of those guys as people he's taken things away from. Also, I believe Robin has the demeanor and the resources to surround himself with good baseball people to help him get acclimated to professional managing. Even with that, hiring Ventura is a risky move based on the unknown, but with everything taken into consideration, he'll hopefully be a good fit.

Lamp81
10-10-2011, 05:15 PM
FWIW, I had wanted Carlton Fisk to be named manager after Jeff Torborg left the Sox to take the Mets jobs. It would have been up to Fisk, whether he wanted to continue playing.

A. Cavatica
10-10-2011, 05:42 PM
You mean the era where the White Sox have the only World Series win any of us have ever experienced? Wow, I understand the disatisfaction with Ozzie the last couple of years, but now just having played for him at any time "taints" you?

Pretty much, yes, after seeing his whole body of work.

kittle42
10-10-2011, 05:46 PM
I'm just curious how many people here have actually spent quality time with Ventura, AJ and Konerko to really know what each of them is like as a baseball person and a person in general to make the statements being made here.

Then why do we have message boards to do anything other than post, "Go, team!" and such?

kittle42
10-10-2011, 05:47 PM
Also, Konerko as manager is no worse than Ventura. They both have the same qualifications on paper.

I really fear this team is going to suck to level of suckitude we haven't seen for a while for at least a few seasons.

Tragg
10-10-2011, 05:49 PM
The only thing that I wonder about is that KW seems intent on keeping everything insular...doesn't seem to want people from the outside.
I think the organization could use some fresh air and some outside thinking.

tstrike2000
10-10-2011, 06:01 PM
The only thing that I wonder about is that KW seems intent on keeping everything insular...doesn't seem to want people from the outside.
I think the organization could use some fresh air and some outside thinking.

What a novel idea.

kittle42
10-10-2011, 06:09 PM
The only thing that I wonder about is that KW seems intent on keeping everything insular...doesn't seem to want people from the outside.
I think the organization could use some fresh air and some outside thinking.

No kidding. It's a sad state of affairs on the South Side right now.

At least I'm feeling really good about opting out of my season tickets. $10 lower bowl resale tickets will be easy to obtain.

delben91
10-10-2011, 06:11 PM
Pretty much, yes, after seeing his whole body of work.

By that theory, the Sox need to get rid of every player on the roster or in the minors that ever had any contact with Ozzie at all, right?

That'll be interesting.

Dibbs
10-10-2011, 06:20 PM
Don't forget the 9th best winning percentage (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/managers.shtml) of thirty two managers.

I like that link. Terry Bevington also has a higher place division finish on average than Ozzie Guillen.

A. Cavatica
10-10-2011, 06:24 PM
By that theory, the Sox need to get rid of every player on the roster or in the minors that ever had any contact with Ozzie at all, right?

That'll be interesting.

No, only the erstwhile "clubhouse leaders".

sullythered
10-10-2011, 07:09 PM
at least he's not tainted by association with the Ozzie era.

Otherwise known as "the best era of White Sox baseball of your life."

Unless you happen to be in your 100's.

A. Cavatica
10-10-2011, 07:32 PM
Otherwise known as "the best era of White Sox baseball of your life."

Unless you happen to be in your 100's.

Here we go again with the 2005! argument.

Milw
10-10-2011, 07:32 PM
Also, Konerko as manager is no worse than Ventura. They both have the same qualifications on paper.

I really fear this team is going to suck to level of suckitude we haven't seen for a while for at least a few seasons.
Yeah, there were lots of people saying the same thing in 2004.

Milw
10-10-2011, 07:35 PM
Here we go again with the 2005! argument.
I can't decide if this is supposed to be in teal. I'm thinking it's not, but then it just doesn't make sense.

Winning a World Series has nothing to do with being successful.

kittle42
10-10-2011, 07:52 PM
Yeah, there were lots of people saying the same thing in 2004.

This time, the organization seems to be preparing us for it, though.

DumpJerry
10-10-2011, 08:07 PM
The only thing that I wonder about is that KW seems intent on keeping everything insular...doesn't seem to want people from the outside.
I think the organization could use some fresh air and some outside thinking.

What a novel idea.

No kidding. It's a sad state of affairs on the South Side right now.

At least I'm feeling really good about opting out of my season tickets. $10 lower bowl resale tickets will be easy to obtain.
When did sports team management become a democracy?

kittle42
10-10-2011, 08:24 PM
When did sports team management become a democracy?

Regardless of whether it's a democracy, I'm voting with my wallet.

Lip Man 1
10-10-2011, 09:06 PM
Kenny is getting a little like Al Davis with some of his decisions...and if it's the Davis from the last ten years that's not a good thing.

Lip

hi im skot
10-10-2011, 09:08 PM
Kenny is getting a little like Al Davis with some of his decisions...and if it's the Davis from the last ten years that's not a good thing.

Lip

People are really making something out of nothing, here.

delben91
10-10-2011, 11:11 PM
People are really making something out of nothing, here.

But KW thought about it for 2 seconds. Sure he didn't act on it, but just him thinking about it is a catastrophe!!! Also, fire all players that played with Ozzie!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

I need to avoid the Clubhouse from now on, even the off-season threads result in this absurdity.

thomas35forever
10-11-2011, 12:28 AM
That would have been...interesting.

Nellie_Fox
10-11-2011, 12:56 AM
Also, Konerko as manager is no worse than Ventura. They both have the same qualifications on paper.

I really fear this team is going to suck to level of suckitude we haven't seen for a while for at least a few seasons.And then all the people who were yelling "blow it up" will be screaming for Crucifixions.

The idea that players are "tainted" simply for having played for Ozzie may be the most over-the-top example of Ozzie hatred I've ever heard. You're essentially saying that they're all incapable of seeing the strengths AND weaknesses of others, and learning from them. They'll only mirror the weaknesses.

kittle42
10-11-2011, 10:44 AM
The idea that players are "tainted" simply for having played for Ozzie may be the most over-the-top example of Ozzie hatred I've ever heard. You're essentially saying that they're all incapable of seeing the strengths AND weaknesses of others, and learning from them. They'll only mirror the weaknesses.

Agreed here. That and the "The Sox won't win a championship for 40 years now" are the two most ridiculous post-Ozzie proclamations I have seen here.

asindc
10-11-2011, 11:18 AM
But KW thought about it for 2 seconds. Sure he didn't act on it, but just him thinking about it is a catastrophe!!! Also, fire all players that played with Ozzie!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

I need to avoid the Clubhouse from now on, even the off-season threads result in this absurdity.

While I won't avoid the Clubhouse (for now), I did decide about three years ago to mostly ignore the game threads because of the rampant absurdity going on there. My heavens, just how will we get rid of the taint of Ozzie! KW's almost-decisions are catastrophic!! There's no way the Sox will improve in the next 5, 10,... 40 years!!!:o: Why must we fans endure this torment?!

wilburaga
10-11-2011, 11:37 AM
While I won't avoid the Clubhouse (for now), I did decide about three years ago to mostly ignore the game threads because of the rampant absurdity going on there. My heavens, just how will we get rid of the taint of Ozzie! KW's almost-decisions are catastrophic!! There's no way the Sox will improve in the next 5, 10,... 40 years!!!:o: Why must we fans endure this torment?!

My favorite is when posters complain we are getting screwed by the umps based on the placement of the pitch on the simulation.

wassagstdu
10-11-2011, 05:39 PM
I hope this is just a joke. I hope.

Nothing screams small market team than silly stunts such as Paul Konerko being promoted as a player manager, while in the year 2011 going into 2012.

It kind of demeans the choice of Robin Ventura too, as another possible small market stunt.

wassagstdu
10-11-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm just curious how many people here have actually spent quality time with Ventura, AJ and Konerko to really know what each of them is like as a baseball person and a person in general to make the statements being made here.

Well if it's suddenly a crime to post on WSI without knowing what you are talking about, then call me guilty.

kittle42
10-11-2011, 05:48 PM
Well if it's suddenly a crime to post on WSI without knowing what you are talking about, then call me guilty.

Amen here, too.

We're fans. Of course we don't know what we are talking about generally in terms of the inner workings of organizations or what is in the hearts and minds of players, coaches, and the like.

But who gives a crap? It's a site for fan opinion.

fram40
10-11-2011, 06:08 PM
I need to avoid the Clubhouse from now on, even the off-season threads result in this absurdity.

why avoid these threads? the absurdity is laugh out loud funny.

all I can say - at this point in time, I dislike the Ventura hire less than I disliked the Ozzie hire eight years ago.

spongyfungy
10-12-2011, 02:16 PM
So Kenny admitted the rumor was true (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111011&content_id=25604232) : "The report is not false," and : "It was considered long enough for me to realize that Paul is a very cerebral person, and he would probably drive himself nuts right now playing and managing at the same time.

This one is a headscratcher all the way around.

ChiSoxGal85
10-12-2011, 02:37 PM
So Kenny admitted the rumor was true (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111011&content_id=25604232) : "The report is not false," and : "It was considered long enough for me to realize that Paul is a very cerebral person, and he would probably drive himself nuts right now playing and managing at the same time.

This one is a headscratcher all the way around.
A.J. was just on Intentional Talk, and he pretty much said the same thing...something like: "He's such a thinker already - how could Paul play first and think about the pitching and manage the game?" And then there was the joke about if Paul talks to the pitcher from first base, is it a visit to the mound?? :D:

(I also laughed over A.J. joking that if Paul was player-manager, he wanted to be player-bench coach.)

gosox41
10-12-2011, 11:06 PM
According to Bill Madden...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2011/10/06/2011-10-06_robin_ventura_with_no_managerial_experience_to_ replace_ozzie_guillen_with_chicag.html


If KW spent more then 1/4 of a second before rejecting this thought then he should be fired.

I'm beginning to wonder what is his motivation is for making the moves he has as of late. Like every GM, I'm sure the answer is to win a championship, but then I have to seriously consider whether he is smart enough to rebuild this team. Ventura is one potential big mistake, but PK as a player manager is dumb on so many levels.


Bob

Nellie_Fox
10-13-2011, 01:00 AM
What am I missing here? I cannot believe how wound up some of you are getting about this!

gobears1987
10-13-2011, 06:42 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that Kenny should be fired, but I have a lot of other reasons for that. This team is going to suck for the foreseeable future and there is no one but Kenny to blame for it.

Harry Chappas
10-13-2011, 11:08 AM
To even consider it? Why is Konerko a worse choice than Ventura?

To partially quote KW, "quite frankly" I'm shocked this idea hasn't been roundly criticized here. It seems like the WSI community greatly underestimates the importance of the manager. Is it really even an okay idea to add a huge burden on one of the few productive players on the roster - a player that has had prolonged slumps in the past that were exacerbated by over-thinking? Do you want him distracted from his "regular" job with worrying about lineup changes, keeping egos in check, coaches meetings, etc.?

This entire coaching "search" in my humble opinion has screamed small market/clown show. The problems with having a GM that seems to feel the farm system is nothing more than an inconvenience were compounded by the hiring of a manager that has had zero managerial experience. And now we find out that this same GM who probably more than anyone else can determine the success or failure of the team entertained the idea of a player-manager? Color me unimpressed.

I'm actually envious of the Cubs right now. While their team is saddled with awful contracts, they'll likely have a GM that has shown a commitment to minor league development, who will probably hire a manager with equally strong credentials, and who will be backed by a deep pocketed owner. In the meantime, we've got a GM who feels that a strong minor league system and a strong major league team are mutually exclusive and who has intimated that we can expect 2-3 years of losing baseball while our manager learns the ropes.

Harry Chappas
10-13-2011, 11:11 AM
While I won't avoid the Clubhouse (for now), I did decide about three years ago to mostly ignore the game threads because of the rampant absurdity going on there. My heavens, just how will we get rid of the taint of Ozzie! KW's almost-decisions are catastrophic!! There's no way the Sox will improve in the next 5, 10,... 40 years!!!:o: Why must we fans endure this torment?!

Leave Ozzie's "taint" out of this. I just ate breakfast.

asindc
10-13-2011, 11:35 AM
To partially quote KW, "quite frankly" I'm shocked this idea hasn't been roundly criticized here. It seems like the WSI community greatly underestimates the importance of the manager. Is it really even an okay idea to add a huge burden on one of the few productive players on the roster - a player that has had prolonged slumps in the past that were exacerbated by over-thinking? Do you want him distracted from his "regular" job with worrying about lineup changes, keeping egos in check, coaches meetings, etc.?

This entire coaching "search" in my humble opinion has screamed small market/clown show. The problems with having a GM that seems to feel the farm system is nothing more than an inconvenience were compounded by the hiring of a manager that has had zero managerial experience. And now we find out that this same GM who probably more than anyone else can determine the success or failure of the team entertained the idea of a player-manager? Color me unimpressed.

I'm actually envious of the Cubs right now. While their team is saddled with awful contracts, they'll likely have a GM that has shown a commitment to minor league development, who will probably hire a manager with equally strong credentials, and who will be backed by a deep pocketed owner. In the meantime, we've got a GM who feels that a strong minor league system and a strong major league team are mutually exclusive and who has intimated that we can expect 2-3 years of losing baseball while our manager learns the ropes.

Either that, and/or an owner who feels that way.

kittle42
10-13-2011, 11:48 AM
To partially quote KW, "quite frankly" I'm shocked this idea hasn't been roundly criticized here. It seems like the WSI community greatly underestimates the importance of the manager. Is it really even an okay idea to add a huge burden on one of the few productive players on the roster - a player that has had prolonged slumps in the past that were exacerbated by over-thinking? Do you want him distracted from his "regular" job with worrying about lineup changes, keeping egos in check, coaches meetings, etc.?

This entire coaching "search" in my humble opinion has screamed small market/clown show. The problems with having a GM that seems to feel the farm system is nothing more than an inconvenience were compounded by the hiring of a manager that has had zero managerial experience. And now we find out that this same GM who probably more than anyone else can determine the success or failure of the team entertained the idea of a player-manager? Color me unimpressed.

I'm actually envious of the Cubs right now. While their team is saddled with awful contracts, they'll likely have a GM that has shown a commitment to minor league development, who will probably hire a manager with equally strong credentials, and who will be backed by a deep pocketed owner. In the meantime, we've got a GM who feels that a strong minor league system and a strong major league team are mutually exclusive and who has intimated that we can expect 2-3 years of losing baseball while our manager learns the ropes.

Excellent post on all counts.

In the course of a week, we went from "Eliminating the manager is the most important thing the Sox need to do" to "It doesn't matter if the only credentials the manager has is that he played baseball." If the hire was a player who had a similar level of major-league experience and was a pretty respected guy like Ventura, but had never played for the Sox, I think the attitude here would be quite different. Playing right into the Sox' hand, some of us are.

SI1020
10-13-2011, 11:58 AM
To partially quote KW, "quite frankly" I'm shocked this idea hasn't been roundly criticized here. It seems like the WSI community greatly underestimates the importance of the manager. Is it really even an okay idea to add a huge burden on one of the few productive players on the roster - a player that has had prolonged slumps in the past that were exacerbated by over-thinking? Do you want him distracted from his "regular" job with worrying about lineup changes, keeping egos in check, coaches meetings, etc.?

This entire coaching "search" in my humble opinion has screamed small market/clown show. The problems with having a GM that seems to feel the farm system is nothing more than an inconvenience were compounded by the hiring of a manager that has had zero managerial experience. And now we find out that this same GM who probably more than anyone else can determine the success or failure of the team entertained the idea of a player-manager? Color me unimpressed.

I'm actually envious of the Cubs right now. While their team is saddled with awful contracts, they'll likely have a GM that has shown a commitment to minor league development, who will probably hire a manager with equally strong credentials, and who will be backed by a deep pocketed owner. In the meantime, we've got a GM who feels that a strong minor league system and a strong major league team are mutually exclusive and who has intimated that we can expect 2-3 years of losing baseball while our manager learns the ropes. I agree, excellent analysis. Harry Chappas this post has you standing tall.

Nellie_Fox
10-13-2011, 12:43 PM
...I'm shocked this idea hasn't been roundly criticized here...Seriously? How much more criticism does it take before it's sufficiently rounded off? People have gone nuts because of something that was mentioned as having been "considered."

It didn't happen! Why does an idea that wasn't carried out need to be "roundly criticized?" "How dare you consider an idea?"

When you're in the phase of decision making that calls for listing possible solutions, management training teaches that you should not "mind guard." Ruling out possible solutions without even considering the pros and cons just because they sound stupid on their face is counter-productive and leads to "group-think." You throw even stupid-sounding ideas out on the table, because they might lead to someone else being prodded into some other idea that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2011, 12:56 PM
Rogers weighs in. The 3rd topic:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-your-morning-phil-theo-cards-kw-20111013,0,5878486.story

Lip

Harry Chappas
10-13-2011, 01:10 PM
Seriously? How much more criticism does it take before it's sufficiently rounded off? People have gone nuts because of something that was mentioned as having been "considered."

It didn't happen! Why does an idea that wasn't carried out need to be "roundly criticized?" "How dare you consider an idea?"

When you're in the phase of decision making that calls for listing possible solutions, management training teaches that you should not "mind guard." Ruling out possible solutions without even considering the pros and cons just because they sound stupid on their face is counter-productive and leads to "group-think." You throw even stupid-sounding ideas out on the table, because they might lead to someone else being prodded into some other idea that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise..

Given his river boat gambler persona, I'd actually welcome a little "group think" since Kenny seems hell bent on bucking trends and being a maverick to the detriment of the team. Group think would have meant an experienced manager and a stronger commitment to our farm system, not setting up a beloved ex-player as a sacrificial lamb so he can get a "free" pass for a season or two.

doublem23
10-13-2011, 01:11 PM
.

Given his river boat gambler persona, I'd actually welcome a little "group think" since Kenny seems hell bent on bucking trends and being a maverick to the detriment of the team. Group think would have meant an experienced manager and a stronger commitment to our farm system, not setting up a beloved ex-player as a sacrificial lamb so he can get a "free" pass for a season or two.

That "gambler" persona won a World Series, though

asindc
10-13-2011, 01:16 PM
That "gambler" persona won a World Series, though

That doesn't count, though, because it is not a good example of successful management.

kittle42
10-13-2011, 01:35 PM
That "gambler" persona won a World Series, though

It did.

And this offseason, it has thus far shown that it knows when to fold 'em.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2011, 02:22 PM
Kittle:

Well played although the off season hasn't even really begun yet...we'll see what happens. I think Sox fans have legit reasons to be concerned about the future the next two or three years however. Ozzie was only part of the problem.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
10-13-2011, 02:24 PM
That doesn't mean you shouldn't at least consider unconventional solutions to problems. He considered it, didn't do it, end of freaking story.

SI1020
10-13-2011, 02:34 PM
I think that Kenny put together a WS winning team when he shucked the riverboat gambler style in favor of building a contending team piece by piece. After that he quickly reverted to his original method of going for the big name blockbuster trade or free agent signing. I mean I'm hardly being original here, much has been made of Kenny on a budget being much more successful than Kenny the riverboat gambler. Rogers is correct I believe in asserting that our GM has lost the confidence of many lowly fans who ultimately pay the freight. I've also been just about the only one here who didn't offer an opinion on Ventura, and again I think HC summed it up nicely. Setting up a beloved ex-player to give cover for your own mistakes.

doublem23
10-13-2011, 03:27 PM
I think that Kenny put together a WS winning team when he shucked the riverboat gambler style in favor of building a contending team piece by piece. After that he quickly reverted to his original method of going for the big name blockbuster trade or free agent signing. I mean I'm hardly being original here, much has been made of Kenny on a budget being much more successful than Kenny the riverboat gambler. Rogers is correct I believe in asserting that our GM has lost the confidence of many lowly fans who ultimately pay the freight. I've also been just about the only one here who didn't offer an opinion on Ventura, and again I think HC summed it up nicely. Setting up a beloved ex-player to give cover for your own mistakes.

Well that's just a lot of conjecture, but I think it's fair to say looking back at how the Sox were built in 2005 it was very much the "gamblin'" Kenny Williams style; he traded Carlos Lee coming off 2 30-HR seasons for a no power hitting LF, he gave Jermaine Dye a big contract despite his injury history, gave AJ Pierzynski a contract despite his reputation as clubhouse cancer, handed the starting 2B job to a player who'd never played in America, and the season before, traded away some of his best prospects for Freddy Garcia, and then took on a reclamation project in Jose Contreras.

kittle42
10-13-2011, 03:33 PM
Well that's just a lot of conjecture, but I think it's fair to say looking back at how the Sox were built in 2005 it was very much the "gamblin'" Kenny Williams style; he traded Carlos Lee coming off 2 30-HR seasons for a no power hitting LF, he gave Jermaine Dye a big contract despite his injury history, gave AJ Pierzynski a contract despite his reputation as clubhouse cancer, handed the starting 2B job to a player who'd never played in America, and the season before, traded away some of his best prospects for Freddy Garcia, and then took on a reclamation project in Jose Contreras.

All on 50 cents, too!

tstrike2000
10-13-2011, 03:38 PM
It did.

And this offseason, it has thus far shown that it knows when to fold 'em.

But not when to walk away.

delben91
10-13-2011, 03:47 PM
All on 50 cents, too!

Been some inflation since then. Clearly.

Harry Chappas
10-13-2011, 03:52 PM
Well that's just a lot of conjecture, but I think it's fair to say looking back at how the Sox were built in 2005 it was very much the "gamblin'" Kenny Williams style; he traded Carlos Lee coming off 2 30-HR seasons for a no power hitting LF, he gave Jermaine Dye a big contract despite his injury history, gave AJ Pierzynski a contract despite his reputation as clubhouse cancer, handed the starting 2B job to a player who'd never played in America, and the season before, traded away some of his best prospects for Freddy Garcia, and then took on a reclamation project in Jose Contreras.

This may seem wholly unfair but considering we've been to the playoffs 3 times in the 11 seasons under Williams, 2005 may have been more of an anomaly than most of us care to admit. In a very winnable division, we have been pretty average with a .560 winning percentage during Williams tenure.

Milw
10-13-2011, 03:56 PM
Well that's just a lot of conjecture, but I think it's fair to say looking back at how the Sox were built in 2005 it was very much the "gamblin'" Kenny Williams style; he traded Carlos Lee coming off 2 30-HR seasons for a no power hitting LF, he gave Jermaine Dye a big contract despite his injury history, gave AJ Pierzynski a contract despite his reputation as clubhouse cancer, handed the starting 2B job to a player who'd never played in America, and the season before, traded away some of his best prospects for Freddy Garcia, and then took on a reclamation project in Jose Contreras.
Shush, you're ruining the narrative that Kenny is insane.

spawn
10-13-2011, 04:10 PM
Well that's just a lot of conjecture, but I think it's fair to say looking back at how the Sox were built in 2005 it was very much the "gamblin'" Kenny Williams style; he traded Carlos Lee coming off 2 30-HR seasons for a no power hitting LF, he gave Jermaine Dye a big contract despite his injury history, gave AJ Pierzynski a contract despite his reputation as clubhouse cancer, handed the starting 2B job to a player who'd never played in America, and the season before, traded away some of his best prospects for Freddy Garcia, and then took on a reclamation project in Jose Contreras.

Let's not forget he took on El Duque, whose best years were far behind him.

tstrike2000
10-13-2011, 04:15 PM
Let's not forget he took on El Duque, whose best years were far behind him.

You could maybe even add Carl Everett to that list.

Harry Chappas
10-13-2011, 04:16 PM
Shush, you're ruining the narrative that Kenny is insane.

You're confusing "insane" with average-to-below-average General Manager. I know hyperbole is sort of expected on a message board, but why not offer up your reasons why you think Kenny Williams is doing a good job. For example, are you pretty happy with our minor league system? How about player development?

Milw
10-13-2011, 04:28 PM
You're confusing "insane" with average-to-below-average General Manager. I know hyperbole is sort of expected on a message board, but why not offer up your reasons why you think Kenny Williams is doing a good job. For example, are you pretty happy with our minor league system? How about player development?
I'm not happy with either of those things, but I recognize they are the natural result of a strategy (All In) that backfired. Had the Sox gone deep into the playoffs this year, as many people expected, it would have been worth it.

Now, obviously, it wasn't worth it. But again, I don't place all, or even most, of the blame on Kenny for that. Much of the blame goes to Ozzie's horrible management, and obviously the players--Dunn, Rios and Peavy in particular.

Yes, Kenny acquired all of those guys. But Dunn underperformed to literally historic levels, far beyond what even the most pessimistic Dunn haters predicted. So that can't be on Kenny.

Peavy was a gamble worth taking, in my opinion. So again, I don't blame Kenny.

Rios is a different story. I think, within the context of the 2010 season and Rios' career history, it was a justifiable gamble. I won't argue if you disagree, but that's really the only major gaffe I'm willing to concede on Kenny's behalf.

Overall, he's had a lot more victories and defeats, and many of the defeats aren't really his fault.

So when you ask if I'm happy with the state of the team, I have to answer you in the context of how we got here. I don't have any qualms with how we got here, and I've got confidence in Kenny that he'll turn it around in relatively short order.

KMcMahon817
10-13-2011, 04:34 PM
I'm not happy with either of those things, but I recognize they are the natural result of a strategy (All In) that backfired. Had the Sox gone deep into the playoffs this year, as many people expected, it would have been worth it.

Now, obviously, it wasn't worth it. But again, I don't place all, or even most, of the blame on Kenny for that. Much of the blame goes to Ozzie's horrible management, and obviously the players--Dunn, Rios and Peavy in particular.

Yes, Kenny acquired all of those guys. But Dunn underperformed to literally historic levels, far beyond what even the most pessimistic Dunn haters predicted. So that can't be on Kenny.

Peavy was a gamble worth taking, in my opinion. So again, I don't blame Kenny.

Rios is a different story. I think, within the context of the 2010 season and Rios' career history, it was a justifiable gamble. I won't argue if you disagree, but that's really the only major gaffe I'm willing to concede on Kenny's behalf.

Overall, he's had a lot more victories and defeats, and many of the defeats aren't really his fault.

So when you ask if I'm happy with the state of the team, I have to answer you in the context of how we got here. I don't have any qualms with how we got here, and I've got confidence in Kenny that he'll turn it around in relatively short order.

That's a good post. I have always been a KW supporter, but even I must admit he is getting towards the end of his window. I don't think KW has the ability to have two more losing seasons in a row and stick around as GM.

I do think KW will at least try to see what the SOX look like in 2012, maybe for his own longevity's sake. If he were to deal all the valuable pieces that SOX have, his time on the South Side is likely coming to a quick end.

Harry Chappas
10-13-2011, 04:45 PM
I'm not happy with either of those things, but I recognize they are the natural result of a strategy (All In) that backfired. Had the Sox gone deep into the playoffs this year, as many people expected, it would have been worth it.

Now, obviously, it wasn't worth it. But again, I don't place all, or even most, of the blame on Kenny for that. Much of the blame goes to Ozzie's horrible management, and obviously the players--Dunn, Rios and Peavy in particular.

Yes, Kenny acquired all of those guys. But Dunn underperformed to literally historic levels, far beyond what even the most pessimistic Dunn haters predicted. So that can't be on Kenny.

Peavy was a gamble worth taking, in my opinion. So again, I don't blame Kenny.

Rios is a different story. I think, within the context of the 2010 season and Rios' career history, it was a justifiable gamble. I won't argue if you disagree, but that's really the only major gaffe I'm willing to concede on Kenny's behalf.

Overall, he's had a lot more victories and defeats, and many of the defeats aren't really his fault.

So when you ask if I'm happy with the state of the team, I have to answer you in the context of how we got here. I don't have any qualms with how we got here, and I've got confidence in Kenny that he'll turn it around in relatively short order.

This may surprise you, but I agree with much of you wrote. I was thrilled with the Peavy and Dunn deals and had mixed emotions about Rios. I don't blame KW for their collective failings and applauded his "going for it." I was always a strong KW supporter on this site (although I don't post that often).

Where we differ is in the belief that being "all in" had to be at the expense of the farm system. For basically Mark Teahen's salary alone, you could have made a big impact on draft bonuses.

My bigger gripe is with his puzzling moves that didn't signify a "go for broke" mentality but rather shaky player evaluation skills. Guys like the aforementioned Teahen and his extension, Nick Swisher, trading Hudson for an expensive, inconsistent, Edwin Jackson, etc. And when he did turn his attention to the draft, for every Chris Sale we got ten Jarred Mitchells. We seemed more focused on signability than ability. Some might claim this is based on some edict from Reinsdorf but I don't buy it.

delben91
10-13-2011, 04:55 PM
This may surprise you, but I agree with much of you wrote. I was thrilled with the Peavy and Dunn deals and had mixed emotions about Rios. I don't blame KW for their collective failings and applauded his "going for it." I was always a strong KW supporter on this site (although I don't post that often).

Where we differ is in the belief that being "all in" had to be at the expense of the farm system. For basically Mark Teahen's salary alone, you could have made a big impact on draft bonuses.

My bigger gripe is with his puzzling moves that didn't signify a "go for broke" mentality but rather shaky player evaluation skills. Guys like the aforementioned Teahen and his extension, Nick Swisher, trading Hudson for an expensive, inconsistent, Edwin Jackson, etc. And when he did turn his attention to the draft, for every Chris Sale we got ten Jarred Mitchells. We seemed more focused on signability than ability. Some might claim this is based on some edict from Reinsdorf but I don't buy it.

I'm of a similar mindset of you and Milw in that other than Rios I supported KW's "big moves" of Dunn and Peavy. I also maintain (as it's been reported in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/15/AR2010121506833.html), second page, toward the bottom) that the trade for EJ was to then flip him for Dunn in 2010. So I don't know how I blame KW for not forseeing that the Nationals would back out, that's just a risk you take. You can argue trading Hudson at all was a bad idea, but not in context of Hudson for Jackson when the trade was Hudson for a then performing Dunn.

As for whether it's KW dictating the baseball budget go to the MLB team vice on draft picks or Reinsdorf...right now all we have is our own speculation. Personally I think JR is driving that, but all that is in the end is me taking your bolded statement and replacing "Reinsdorf" with "Williams" and round-and-round we go. :cool:

Nellie_Fox
10-13-2011, 05:04 PM
This may seem wholly unfair but considering we've been to the playoffs 3 times in the 11 seasons under Williams, 2005 may have been more of an anomaly than most of us care to admit. In a very winnable division, we have been pretty average with a .560 winning percentage during Williams tenure.

Pretty average?

162 X .560 = 91.

If you think 91 wins per year is "pretty average," well...

Tragg
10-13-2011, 05:16 PM
I'm of a similar mindset of you and Milw in that other than Rios I supported KW's "big moves" of Dunn and Peavy. I also maintain (as it's been reported in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/15/AR2010121506833.html), second page, toward the bottom) that the trade for EJ was to then flip him for Dunn in 2010.
Trading Hudson and the excellent low minor prospect to rent Dunn for 2 months would have been equally foolhardy....perhaps even moreso than getting a year and a half of Jackson.

doublem23
10-13-2011, 05:20 PM
Trading Hudson and the excellent low minor prospect to rent Dunn for 2 months would have been equally foolhardy....perhaps even moreso than getting a year and a half of Jackson.

Holmberg is an excellent prospect now? Good Lord.

delben91
10-13-2011, 05:24 PM
Trading Hudson and the excellent low minor prospect to rent Dunn for 2 months would have been equally foolhardy....perhaps even moreso than getting a year and a half of Jackson.

Remember Dunn was hitting to his career norms at the time and the Sox DH was Mark Kotsay. In that context and given the Sox still had a chance at the division, I would've been very happy with that trade if it yielded Dunn.

Harry Chappas
10-13-2011, 06:15 PM
Pretty average?

162 X .560 = 91.

If you think 91 wins per year is "pretty average," well...

Put that into context. Maybe "average" wasn't the right term. Let's look at how we fared relative to our division foe since the '05 World Series:

2006 - 3rd
2007 - 4th
2008 - 1st (89 wins)
2009 - 3rd
2010 - 2nd
2011 - 3rd

We've had a losing record 3 of the last 5 years. So on the heels of three straight disappointing seasons, our GM tells the media and fans that he expects our new manager to go through some growing pains (i.e. lose) for the next few seasons. Personally, I think the fans have been patient enough so I'm not really keen on granting Kenny a stay of execution simply because he thought it would be a swell idea to hire a completely inexperienced manager. Obviously, many of you disagree. We'll see how patient the fans are if Ventura and the Sox falter.

spawn
10-13-2011, 06:23 PM
This thread is hilarious. I can't believe there are seven pages on something that never even happened. :rolling:

delben91
10-13-2011, 06:26 PM
This thread is hilarious. I can't believe there are seven pages on something that never even happened. :rolling:

But, but, but...he THOUGHT ABOUT IT!!!!!!!! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

I personally want to know why KW isn't being thrown out since he's "tainted" by hiring Ozzie. If players like Konerko, Buehrle, etc need to be shown the door for being leaders under Ozzie, then surely the front office staff should go too.

And the fact that Coop and Baines, who worked for Ozzie, have been retained? Heresy.

Hell, Ventura PLAYED NEXT TO Ozzie and was hired? Ludicrous.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2011, 07:19 PM
Harry:

Some corrections:

1. The Sox have made the postseason twice under Kenny (2005, 2008). The 2000 club had Ron Schueler as G.M.

2. The winning percentage for the Sox under Kenny from opening day 2001 through the end of the 2011 season is 929-854 (11 seasons). A win percentage of .521

3. The Sox average seasonal record under Kenny is: 84.4 - 77.6

Lip

Harry Chappas
10-13-2011, 10:16 PM
This thread is hilarious. I can't believe there are seven pages on something that never even happened. :rolling:

You're easily amused. Considering it's October, I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of content. Analysis of our new manager? Kind of hard when we have nothing to go on. His coaching staff? Not much there either unless you are familiar with the coaching attributes of Mark Parent. Feel free to offer up something that you feel is worthy of discussion.

gosox41
10-13-2011, 11:10 PM
What am I missing here? I cannot believe how wound up some of you are getting about this!

Kenny has already turned me off with his last few moves on the field. He has a chance to start over and hire a manager of his choice. Besides the fact that he didn't even bother to interview Dave Martinez or Sandy Alomar Jr (let alone go after a proven guy) he actually seriously considered taking a rebuilding club and reviving a concept that I don't think has been used since the 1950's?

I don't think he belongs as GM of this team. If I had to choose between Ozzie and Kenny, I'd rather see Ozzie still be here, big mouth and all.

But instead Mr. Ego (Kenny) decides to hire a first time manager with absolutely no coaching experience, let alone managing experience.

Is he really the guy that should be heading a retooling or rebuilding of this team?

Right now he is just adding fuel to the fire of getting rid of him. If he had hired Dave Martinez, I probably would have laughed off his comment becuase he made a choice that at least had some logic to it.


Bob

Bob

gosox41
10-13-2011, 11:13 PM
You're confusing "insane" with average-to-below-average General Manager. I know hyperbole is sort of expected on a message board, but why not offer up your reasons why you think Kenny Williams is doing a good job. For example, are you pretty happy with our minor league system? How about player development?

Or the last few big contracts that he: claimed off of waivers, traded for, or signed as a free agent.

He's hit the trifecta of failures!!!

But who knows, maybe Rios visits Oz and gets a heart. And maybe Jake can do more then talk big in 2012. And maybe Dunn will decide now is a good time to get in shape during the off season and also take some BP. Never heard a player say they came into camp too in shape or too prepared.


Bob

gosox41
10-13-2011, 11:17 PM
Pretty average?

162 X .560 = 91.

If you think 91 wins per year is "pretty average," well...

I don't think the .560 winning % number is right. How many times in KW's tenure have the Sox won 91 or more games. Once. One time in 11 years. And that was 99 wins in 2005. No way this team is playing .560 ball with KW as GM.


Bob

hi im skot
10-13-2011, 11:20 PM
Kenny has already turned me off with his last few moves on the field. He has a chance to start over and hire a manager of his choice. Besides the fact that he didn't even bother to interview Dave Martinez or Sandy Alomar Jr (let alone go after a proven guy) he actually seriously considered taking a rebuilding club and reviving a concept that I don't think has been used since the 1950's?

I don't think he belongs as GM of this team. If I had to choose between Ozzie and Kenny, I'd rather see Ozzie still be here, big mouth and all.

But instead Mr. Ego (Kenny) decides to hire a first time manager with absolutely no coaching experience, let alone managing experience.

Is he really the guy that should be heading a retooling or rebuilding of this team?

Right now he is just adding fuel to the fire of getting rid of him. If he had hired Dave Martinez, I probably would have laughed off his comment becuase he made a choice that at least had some logic to it.


Bob

Bob

Honest question - why, exactly, were people latching on to Dave Martinez so much? What about his previous experiences made him, in your eyes, The Answer for the Chicago White Sox?

Full disclosure: I was interested in Martinez as well, but for silly reasons - the beard, the fact that he was one of my favorite "bad" Sox players, and sure, I like the Rays and I like Joe Maddon. But I don't know a goddamn thing about his coaching "style", or what would have made him good for the Sox.

I've already said it, but why can't we just accept the fact that Robin Ventura is the new manager and just sit back and see what happens? The Ozzie circus has moved on, and now we're getting the exact opposite of Guillen.

Give the guy a chance, and hey, maybe give KW a bit of a chance, too. He knows his job is on the line, and the fact that he thinks Ventura can do the job makes me think that maybe it's not as far-fetched as some folks seem to think.

Man, don't people have REAL problems to deal with? Jesus.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2011, 11:20 PM
Bob:

See my post a few above this one. Harry's figure is wrong..... the Sox win percentage under Kenny is .521. They win under Kenny an average of 84.4 games a season.

Lip

hi im skot
10-13-2011, 11:21 PM
I don't think the .560 winning % number is right. How many times in KW's tenure have the Sox won 91 or more games. Once. One time in 11 years. And that was 99 wins in 2005. No way this team is playing .560 ball with KW as GM.


Bob

And we can go ahead and overlook the 90 wins in 2006 and 89 in 2008, right?

delben91
10-13-2011, 11:23 PM
And we can go ahead and overlook the 90 wins in 2006 and 89 in 2008, right?

You bet. Done and done. Just accept it, everything sucks everywhere, but especially with the White Sox who are now doomed 4eva!

What else you got? :cool:

hi im skot
10-13-2011, 11:24 PM
You bet. Done and done. Just accept it, everything sucks everywhere, but especially with the White Sox who are now doomed 4eva!

What else you got? :cool:

Well, yeah, life pretty much sucks at this point (http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/10/fred_durst_cbs_sitcom.html).

delben91
10-13-2011, 11:27 PM
Well, yeah, life pretty much sucks at this point (http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/10/fred_durst_cbs_sitcom.html).

Hmmm. Well... :scratch::mg::thud:

Robin who?

hi im skot
10-13-2011, 11:29 PM
Hmmm. Well... :scratch::mg::thud:

Robin who?

I'm sure Kenny Williams is somehow responsible for this.

Nellie_Fox
10-14-2011, 01:02 AM
We'll see how patient the fans are if Ventura and the Sox falter.Now THAT I agree with. I've made that point many times with the "blow it up" people, the "play the kids; at least they'll try" people, the "I'm willing to put up with watching the kids struggle to put this behind us" people. I don't believe them. They will be screaming bloody murder very quickly when the Sox are a 70 win team.

It's just like all the people who said that if the Sox ever won a World Series, they'd never complain again. I called bull**** then, too.

TommyJohn
10-14-2011, 07:49 AM
Now THAT I agree with. I've made that point many times with the "blow it up" people, the "play the kids; at least they'll try" people, the "I'm willing to put up with watching the kids struggle to put this behind us" people. I don't believe them. They will be screaming bloody murder very quickly when the Sox are a 70 win team.

It's just like all the people who said that if the Sox ever won a World Series, they'd never complain again. I called bull**** then, too.

I remember that. Some posters would trade "Ten 100 loss seasons!" for one World Series. By 2006, people were yelling bloody murder. As for 2007...

spawn
10-14-2011, 08:30 AM
You bet. Done and done. Just accept it, everything sucks everywhere, but especially with the White Sox who are now doomed 4eva!

What else you got? :cool:

Yep. It's funny how Billy Beane all these years has been branded a genius even though none of his teams has won a World Series, yet KW and his "ego" is ruining White Sox baseball as we speak!!! Hide the women and children!!!

spawn
10-14-2011, 08:32 AM
Now THAT I agree with. I've made that point many times with the "blow it up" people, the "play the kids; at least they'll try" people, the "I'm willing to put up with watching the kids struggle to put this behind us" people. I don't believe them. They will be screaming bloody murder very quickly when the Sox are a 70 win team.

It's just like all the people who said that if the Sox ever won a World Series, they'd never complain again. I called bull**** then, too.

And if Robin does fail, I can't wait to see the posts exclaiming how Ozzie wasn't so bad after all.

Milw
10-14-2011, 09:48 AM
Now THAT I agree with. I've made that point many times with the "blow it up" people, the "play the kids; at least they'll try" people, the "I'm willing to put up with watching the kids struggle to put this behind us" people. I don't believe them. They will be screaming bloody murder very quickly when the Sox are a 70 win team.

It's just like all the people who said that if the Sox ever won a World Series, they'd never complain again. I called bull**** then, too.
As long as the blow-it-up effort comes with some semblance of a plan, and the team appears to be moving (however slowly) in the right direction, I vow not to complain. If the process stalls or flounders, or if there's significant regression after a year or two, then I'll complain, because then that becomes a failure.

Now, I can't speak for anyone else advocating a rebuild. But feel free to hold me to this.

Harry Chappas
10-14-2011, 11:14 AM
And if Robin does fail, I can't wait to see the posts exclaiming how Ozzie wasn't so bad after all.

Really? You "can't wait"? Why?

You seem to hold the WSI members in pretty low regard. I'm not sure I recall ever reading here that "Billy Beane is a genius" and I'd say, by and large, most posters here are fairly rational. Do you really think there's going to be an avalanche of posters lamenting the loss of Ozzie? You're ready - for whatever odd reason - to pounce on something that hasn't occurred. Sound familiar?

Like I wrote before, this is a dead period for White Sox fans. There isn't a whole lot to do other than analyse and discuss what few moves have been made (Hawk/Robin) and comment on interviews given by members of the organization (A.J., Kenny, etc.). Kenny said something really weird and it made national news. His admission came on the heels of a very unexpected if not completely bizarre decision to hire Robin Ventura. Add to that 3 very disappointing years capped off by embarrassing behind-the-scenes stuff and 3 horrible (to this point) and expensive acquisitions one of which failed at a historic level. And yet wondering what the hell Kenny Williams was thinking strikes you as odd? Whatever.

BTW - I'm still waiting for you to offer up some topics you feel are worthy of this board.

kittle42
10-14-2011, 11:19 AM
Yep. It's funny how Billy Beane all these years has been branded a genius even though none of his teams has won a World Series, yet KW and his "ego" is ruining White Sox baseball as we speak!!! Hide the women and children!!!

To Beane's credit, he only had 25 cents.

spawn
10-14-2011, 11:31 AM
Really? You "can't wait"? Why?

You seem to hold the WSI members in pretty low regard. I'm not sure I recall ever reading here that "Billy Bean is a genius" and I'd say, by and large, most posters here are fairly rational. Do you really think there's going to be an avalanche of posters lamenting the loss of Ozzie? You're ready - for whatever odd reason - to pounce on something that hasn't occurred. Sound familiar?
I didn't say everyone would, and you'd be naive to think it wouldn't happen at all. As far as holding WSI members in low regard...well, you can think that if you want. There are some very intelligent posters here. There are some that aren't. I try not to lump everyone into one category. :shrug:

Also, I haven't pounced on something that hasn't occurred. Big difference. :wink:


BTW - I'm still waiting for you to offer up some topics you feel are worthy of this board.
My contributions to this board far outnumber yours, so you'll excuse me if I don't feel the need to offer anything to you. Mmkay? :cool:

asindc
10-14-2011, 12:09 PM
I wonder if an article is written in which it is said that KW considered trading Dunn and Rios for Adrian Gonzalez and Jacoby Ellsbury, would the same people calling KW an idiot in this thread call him a genius for considering that?

Harry Chappas
10-14-2011, 12:10 PM
I didn't say everyone would, and you'd be naive to think it wouldn't happen at all. As far as holding WSI members in low regard...well, you can think that if you want. There are some very intelligent posters here. There are some that aren't. I try not to lump everyone into one category. :shrug:

I never said it wouldn't happen. I just don't really care if it does. I'm not lying in wait to be proven correct.

Also, I haven't pounced on something that hasn't occurred. Big difference. :wink:

Again, every major sports news outlet reported on the player/manager thing and there were a number of op-ed pieces. What you find inane, others may find topical. Different strokes for different folks.


My contributions to this board far outnumber yours, so you'll excuse me if I don't feel the need to offer anything to you. Mmkay? :cool:

Are you pulling internet message board rank? Okay, you win.

kittle42
10-14-2011, 12:22 PM
I wonder if an article is written in which it is said that KW considered trading Dunn and Rios for Adrian Gonzalez and Jacoby Ellsbury, would the same people calling KW an idiot in this thread call him a genius for considering that?

Not really a fair parallel.

spawn
10-14-2011, 12:28 PM
Are you pulling internet message board rank? Okay, you win.
I know. :cool:

KMcMahon817
10-14-2011, 12:33 PM
Are you pulling internet message board rank? Okay, you win.

:rolling: Ahahahahaha. Good one.

SI1020
10-14-2011, 12:42 PM
We are ranked by our post count?

Daver
10-14-2011, 12:46 PM
We are ranked by our post count?

You are not your post count.


This thread is a hoot.

Harry Chappas
10-14-2011, 12:55 PM
I wonder if an article is written in which it is said that KW considered trading Dunn and Rios for Adrian Gonzalez and Jacoby Ellsbury, would the same people calling KW an idiot in this thread call him a genius for considering that?

This is a horrible analogy.

BTW - I don't think the fact that Kenny admitted to giving a moment's consideration to installing PK as player/manager makes him an idiot. A lot more goes into the equation.

asindc
10-14-2011, 12:57 PM
This is a horrible analogy.

BTW - I don't think the fact that Kenny admitted to giving a moment's consideration to installing PK as player/manager makes him an idiot. A lot more goes into the equation.

Including full knowledge of the situation, which is the point of my post.

spawn
10-14-2011, 02:17 PM
You are not your post count.


This thread is a hoot.

No kidding. :rolling:

kittle42
10-14-2011, 02:32 PM
My only question is, if Konerko was a player-manager, would he be allowed to have a beer on days where he was not playing?

SoxSpeed22
10-14-2011, 02:43 PM
My only question is, if Konerko was a player-manager, would he be allowed to have a beer on days where he was not playing?I'm sure that beer would screw up his judgement to the point where he would try and bunt with Adam Dunn when there's two outs.
Now that the past two threads have gone to hell, we might as well kick them while they're down.

spawn
10-14-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm sure that beer would screw up his judgement to the point where he would try and bunt with Adam Dunn when there's two outs.
Now that the past two threads have gone to hell, we might as well kick them while they're down.
Maybe Ozzie should've been drinking. But then, with the decisions he made last season, maybe that was his problem.

tstrike2000
10-14-2011, 03:16 PM
I'm sure that beer would screw up his judgement to the point where he would try and bunt with Adam Dunn when there's two outs.
Now that the past two threads have gone to hell, we might as well kick them while they're down.

Maybe they should just have Dunn himself go to town on a whole keg on days he is playing and see what happens.

doublem23
10-14-2011, 03:42 PM
Maybe they should just have Dunn himself go to town on a whole keg on days he is playing and see what happens.

It works in softball!

gosox41
10-16-2011, 10:44 PM
Honest question - why, exactly, were people latching on to Dave Martinez so much? What about his previous experiences made him, in your eyes, The Answer for the Chicago White Sox?

Full disclosure: I was interested in Martinez as well, but for silly reasons - the beard, the fact that he was one of my favorite "bad" Sox players, and sure, I like the Rays and I like Joe Maddon. But I don't know a goddamn thing about his coaching "style", or what would have made him good for the Sox.

I've already said it, but why can't we just accept the fact that Robin Ventura is the new manager and just sit back and see what happens? The Ozzie circus has moved on, and now we're getting the exact opposite of Guillen.

Give the guy a chance, and hey, maybe give KW a bit of a chance, too. He knows his job is on the line, and the fact that he thinks Ventura can do the job makes me think that maybe it's not as far-fetched as some folks seem to think.

Man, don't people have REAL problems to deal with? Jesus.


I go have real problems (ie a life) but who doesn't? Do you want me to blog about it? Maybe I can charge. Or maybe, I'd get a giant Who Cares because we all have problems.

In this case, the reason I wanted Martinez was he spent 4 years as Maddon's bench coach. He is part of one of the lowest payroll teams in all of baseball that has made the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years. I'd say that at least deserves an interview.


Bob