PDA

View Full Version : Sale to start in 2012


LITTLE NELL
10-03-2011, 06:46 PM
KW: Sale in rotation for 2012.


https://twitter.com/#!/scottmerkin/statuses/120968579180019714

WhiteSox5187
10-03-2011, 06:47 PM
Unfortunately I suspect he will be on the DL for 2013 then. He's never started a game in professional baseball and he has that inverted W form that leads to guys having Tommy John surgery.

LITTLE NELL
10-03-2011, 06:53 PM
With Sale as a starter I will go out on a limb and say we keep Buerhle and trade Danks for some proven talent. The Sox being a big market team cannot afford to go with a complete rebuild.

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 07:00 PM
He's never started a game in professional baseball and he has that inverted W form that leads to guys having Tommy John surgery.

Maybe, but you sure are painting with broad strokes.

TaylorStSox
10-03-2011, 07:13 PM
Why don't they call in "inverted W" an "M?" Riddle me that...

kevingrt
10-03-2011, 07:16 PM
Unfortunately I suspect he will be on the DL for 2013 then. He's never started a game in professional baseball and he has that inverted W form that leads to guys having Tommy John surgery.

Well he was only a starter in high school and college and he never had arm problems to my knowledge.

DSpivack
10-03-2011, 08:18 PM
With Sale as a starter I will go out on a limb and say we keep Buerhle and trade Danks for some proven talent. The Sox being a big market team cannot afford to go with a complete rebuild.

I can see Danks being dealt to save money, but I don't see Buehrle being re-signed, not at $12-14 million/year.

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 08:31 PM
I can see Danks being dealt to save money, but I don't see Buehrle being re-signed, not at $12-14 million/year.

I wouldn't be surprised if all or a combination of Thornton, Floyd, Danks, and Quentin are moved and Buehrle is resigned. People that know more than I seem to be intimating this lately.

thomas35forever
10-03-2011, 08:34 PM
No surprise here. Hope he works out properly in the offseason that allows him to take on thie new role.

ChiSoxGal85
10-03-2011, 09:36 PM
No surprise here. Hope he works out properly in the offseason that allows him to take on thie new role.
Get that boy some protein shakes! :D:

I'm not opposed to trying Sale out as a starter. But I hope they get another lefty reliever then, especially if Thornton gets moved. I don't like the thought of relying on Ohman.

TheFrisbee
10-03-2011, 09:49 PM
It will be interesting to see how he will develop as a major league starter, as I would be looking forward to the progress. I would have my doubts he would be throwing the same gas he did in the bullpen.
IIRC, when he was called up, many were surprised he was able to throw past the 92-94mph range, which was his average as a starter in college.

DumpJerry
10-03-2011, 09:57 PM
Unfortunately I suspect he will be on the DL for 2013 then. He's never started a game in professional baseball and he has that inverted W form that leads to guys having Tommy John surgery.

Well he was only a starter in high school and college and he never had arm problems to my knowledge.
Kevin: he never had arm problems because nobody was writing articles about how he would have a blown elbow by Tuesday with his pitching style.

I saw some film of Randy Johnson recently and I am even more convinced Sale is the next Big Unit (I met him after the last game in the players' parking lot and told him I thought he was the next Randy Johnson. He replied he hopes I'm right). Similar style.

soxinem1
10-03-2011, 10:30 PM
Kevin: he never had arm problems because nobody was writing articles about how he would have a blown elbow by Tuesday with his pitching style.

I saw some film of Randy Johnson recently and I am even more convinced Sale is the next Big Unit (I met him after the last game in the players' parking lot and told him I thought he was the next Randy Johnson. He replied he hopes I'm right). Similar style.

I agree. After watching him an entire year, he may drop down a bit, but he does not throw off his elbow like some LOOGY.

Sale actually pitched deep into may relief appearances, with most of the rest averaging less than an inning an outing.

I didn't think at one time he would be a possible starter. Now, I think he can do it. If he could beef up a bit, esp his legs, he should be fine.

And many guys who are more wide-bodied than Sale have had the TJ procedure. That means nothing.

TaylorStSox
10-03-2011, 11:17 PM
I can see Danks being dealt to save money, but I don't see Buehrle being re-signed, not at $12-14 million/year.

I would guess that Mark's presence on the team may produce enough money to offset his salary. Also, I can't imagine he gets 14 million on the market. We probably overrate his value. He's worth more to us than other teams.

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2011, 12:49 AM
Why don't they call in "inverted W" an "M?" Riddle me that...This has already been addressed. An "M" has vertical legs on each end, while an inverted "W" has slanted legs on each end: /V\

CWSpalehoseCWS
10-04-2011, 12:49 AM
Why don't they call in "inverted W" an "M?" Riddle me that...

I believe it has something to do with the fact that "M" has straight legs while an inverted "W" closer resembles a pitchers arms.

hawkjt
10-04-2011, 02:16 AM
Sale in the rotation leads me to believe the rotation is for sale.
I just do not see MB coming back for 2 yr/16 million,which the Sox will offer.
I think it smells like a true rebuild that some fans on here are longing for:

Rotation: Peavy,Stewart,Humber, Floyd and Sale. Scary.
Bullpen: Sergio,Crain,Ohman,...and 4 minor leaguers.
Outfield: DeAza,Rios,Tank
Infield: Morel,Alexei,Gordo,PK,AJ
DH: Dunn
Bench: Flowers,Lilly,Danks,Escobar.

That is a club that will battle to stay out of the cellar..and lose that battle.

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2011, 12:43 PM
That is a club that will battle to stay out of the cellar..and lose that battle.Not sure about that. Pending what happens with the health of Mauer and Morneau, the Twins could be in worse shape.

FielderJones
10-04-2011, 01:37 PM
I believe it has something to do with the fact that "M" has straight legs while an inverted "W" closer resembles a pitchers arms.

Correct. The stems of the M are vertical. The arms of the W are at an oblique angle. The forearms of Chris Sale are at an oblique angle.

TheOldRoman
10-04-2011, 01:55 PM
This has already been addressed. An "M" has vertical legs on each end, while an inverted "W" has slanted legs on each end: /V\Not always.
http://www.wesoldbooks.com/s/236/images/editor/College%20Mascots/Univ%20of%20MN%20Golden%20Gopher.gif

Tragg
10-04-2011, 02:18 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if all or a combination of Thornton, Floyd, Danks, and Quentin are moved and Buehrle is resigned. People that know more than I seem to be intimating this lately.
I don't see the point in moving Floyd. But otherwise, I'm down with that.

Foulke You
10-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Bullpen: Sergio,Crain,Ohman,...and 4 minor leaguers.

The bullpen still has Matt Thornton and Jason Frasor under contract. I don't see Thornton getting dealt if Sale is indeed being moved to the rotation. Addison Reed also looks like an MLB ready bullpen guy that we could use in the 6th or 7th if needed. The pen isn't as bad as you may think unless KW chooses to gut it with trades. The rest of your synopsis is pretty spot on though.

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Not always.
http://www.wesoldbooks.com/s/236/images/editor/College%20Mascots/Univ%20of%20MN%20Golden%20Gopher.gif



I knew someone would bring this up. The Minnesota "M" proved just how much weaker it is than the Michigan "M" this last weekend! :tongue:

http://product.images.fansedge.com/34-33/34-33301-F.jpg

Foulke You
10-04-2011, 02:27 PM
Unfortunately I suspect he will be on the DL for 2013 then. He's never started a game in professional baseball and he has that inverted W form that leads to guys having Tommy John surgery.
I'm going to trust Don Cooper's judgment on this one. He is always on the lookout for guys with mechanics that appear headed for injury. He called Strasburg's arm issues 2 months before it happened. He also knew Peavy was on the path to injury. To the untrained eye, Sale's delivery is all arms and legs and looks like an injury waiting to happen but I have to assume Cooper gave his seal of approval on placing him in the rotation. If he signs off on it, that is good enough for me. There is definitely upside to Sale as a starter but I would like to see him add another pitch to his arsenal.

DirtySox
10-04-2011, 02:30 PM
I don't see the point in moving Floyd. But otherwise, I'm down with that.

From a competitive standpoint, moving any of them makes little sense. Ultimately it will come down to how much payroll needs to be cut. Some are predicting down to $90 million or so.

SoxSpeed22
10-04-2011, 02:41 PM
I'm going to trust Don Cooper's judgment on this one. He is always on the lookout for guys with mechanics that appear headed for injury. He called Strasburg's arm issues 2 months before it happened. He also knew Peavy was on the path to injury. To the untrained eye, Sale's delivery is all arms and legs and looks like an injury waiting to happen but I have to assume Cooper gave his seal of approval on placing him in the rotation. If he signs off on it, that is good enough for me. There is definitely upside to Sale as a starter but I would like to see him add another pitch to his arsenal.I think all he needs to do is polish his changeup, so he can throw it more to right handers. His arm angle and slider will drive lefties nuts, but he does need something to use against right handers. Danks had a high strikeout rate against right handed hitters, thanks to his changeup. If Sale can throw from the same arm angle as his fastball, righties won't have a chance against a moving fastball, a slider that goes down and in and a changeup that goes down and away.

nick1976
10-04-2011, 02:42 PM
Sale moving to the starting rotation means someone is gone. That someone is Mark Buehrle. The 2012 White Sox will be the same team as 2011 minus MB.

seventyseven
10-04-2011, 02:48 PM
Sale moving to the starting rotation means someone is gone. That someone is Mark Buehrle. The 2012 White Sox will be the same team as 2011 minus MB.

They better not be, or else we are going to draw 15k bored fans every night.

Foulke You
10-04-2011, 02:55 PM
I think all he needs to do is polish his changeup, so he can throw it more to right handers. His arm angle and slider will drive lefties nuts, but he does need something to use against right handers. Danks had a high strikeout rate against right handed hitters, thanks to his changeup. If Sale can throw from the same arm angle as his fastball, righties won't have a chance against a moving fastball, a slider that goes down and in and a changeup that goes down and away.
Agreed. The change up is more of a "show me" pitch right now for Sale. He rarely threw it in key situations last year and leaned heavily on the fastball and slider which are his bread and butter. If he could get his change as good as Danks, he *could* be an 18 win type pitcher in this league.

Boondock Saint
10-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Sale moving to the starting rotation means someone is gone. That someone is Mark Buehrle. The 2012 White Sox will be the same team as 2011 minus MB.

There's an awful lot of presumption going on in this post.

KMcMahon817
10-04-2011, 03:17 PM
I knew someone would bring this up. The Minnesota "M" proved just how much weaker it is than the Michigan "M" this last weekend! :tongue:

http://product.images.fansedge.com/34-33/34-33301-F.jpg

Just about the only sport that Michigan can say that about. Minnesota football has always sucked.

soxfanatlanta
10-04-2011, 03:33 PM
Like many of the posters here, I a worried that he will be injured by the end of next season. I do wish that they sign MB; I think we have seen the best of Danks, and it's not as good as I hoped.

MushMouth
10-04-2011, 03:58 PM
This has already been addressed. An "M" has vertical legs on each end, while an inverted "W" has slanted legs on each end: /V\

you just blew my mind

DonnieDarko
10-04-2011, 04:03 PM
I, too, am concerned about Sale starting. I suppose that we'll just have to wait and see--and I'm certainly in favor of him getting a shot to start--but that doesn't mean that I don't have my reservations about him doing so.

doublem23
10-04-2011, 04:05 PM
Like many of the posters here, I a worried that he will be injured by the end of next season. I do wish that they sign MB; I think we have seen the best of Danks, and it's not as good as I hoped.

FWIW, Danks was in the AL Top 10 for WAR for Pitchers from 2008-2010.

Nellie_Fox
10-04-2011, 05:24 PM
Just about the only sport that Michigan can say that about. Minnesota football has always sucked.I know what you mean, but for the sake of accuracy, Minnesota football has not "always" sucked. They won several national championships "back in the day."

1934 1935 1936 1940 1941 and 1960.

Daver
10-04-2011, 07:31 PM
I'm going to trust Don Cooper's judgment on this one. He is always on the lookout for guys with mechanics that appear headed for injury. He called Strasburg's arm issues 2 months before it happened. He also knew Peavy was on the path to injury. To the untrained eye, Sale's delivery is all arms and legs and looks like an injury waiting to happen but I have to assume Cooper gave his seal of approval on placing him in the rotation. If he signs off on it, that is good enough for me. There is definitely upside to Sale as a starter but I would like to see him add another pitch to his arsenal.

If Sale is joining the rotation I seriously hope he spends some quality time with Kirk Champion in Arizona over the winter, if not I would not be at all surprised if he were on the DL before the All Star break.

KMcMahon817
10-04-2011, 07:32 PM
I know what you mean, but for the sake of accuracy, Minnesota football has not "always" sucked. They won several national championships "back in the day."

1934 1935 1936 1940 1941 and 1960.

Thanks for the correct; I was -29 the last time that happened. Sure do have a beautiful stadium, though.

KMcMahon817
10-04-2011, 07:34 PM
If Sale is joining the rotation I seriously hope he spends some quality time with Kirk Champion in Arizona over the winter, if not I would not be at all surprised if he were on the DL before the All Star break.

I don't understand this logic. Why is he any more likely to get injured now than he was every year prior to when he begin pitching in relief in 2010?

The SOX need to know what they have in Sale as a starter. Using him exclusively out of the pen without a shot in the rotation is silly.

Daver
10-04-2011, 07:40 PM
I don't understand this logic. Why is he any more likely to get injured now than he was every year prior to when he begin pitching in relief in 2010?


Because his mechanics are terrible and that is minimized by throwing two innings every two or three days as opposed to trying to throw eight innings every fifth day.

That and I don't think he could make it three times through anyone's line up without getting lit up like a Christmas tree.

KMcMahon817
10-04-2011, 07:58 PM
Because his mechanics are terrible and that is minimized by throwing two innings every two or three days as opposed to trying to throw eight innings every fifth day.

That and I don't think he could make it three times through anyone's line up without getting lit up like a Christmas tree.

You didn't answer the question. Why is he more likely to get injured now than he was when he was a starter his entire life prior to being drafted 1.5 years ago? If he was going to blow his arm out after one year of starting, it is likely he would have done that at Florida Gulf Coast with his starting workload.

Daver
10-04-2011, 08:31 PM
You didn't answer the question. Why is he more likely to get injured now than he was when he was a starter his entire life prior to being drafted 1.5 years ago? If he was going to blow his arm out after one year of starting, it is likely he would have done that at Florida Gulf Coast with his starting workload.

Pitching at the college level is a walk in the park compared to pitching pro ball, and any comparisons made to it are like comparing raisins to coconuts. There are thousands of college pitchers that get drafted with bad mechanics, less than one percent of them have any success at the MLB level.

SI1020
10-04-2011, 08:33 PM
You didn't answer the question. Why is he more likely to get injured now than he was when he was a starter his entire life prior to being drafted 1.5 years ago? If he was going to blow his arm out after one year of starting, it is likely he would have done that at Florida Gulf Coast with his starting workload. What starting workload? He topped off at 103 innings.


http://soxbronzetitan.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/chris-sales-college-stats/

Zisk77
10-04-2011, 08:36 PM
Because his mechanics are terrible and that is minimized by throwing two innings every two or three days as opposed to trying to throw eight innings every fifth day.

That and I don't think he could make it three times through anyone's line up without getting lit up like a Christmas tree.

His mechanics would be bad (the dreaded inverted "w") if he were a conventional pitcher who throws over the top. He doesn't. His arm angle at least somewhat mitigates the strain he puts on his arm. Lets just see on this one.

Corlose 15
10-04-2011, 09:23 PM
Agreed. The change up is more of a "show me" pitch right now for Sale. He rarely threw it in key situations last year and leaned heavily on the fastball and slider which are his bread and butter. If he could get his change as good as Danks, he *could* be an 18 win type pitcher in this league.

I was under the impression that the changeup was his best pitch and he didn't use it as much because he could rely on his fastball and slider out of the pen.

Domeshot17
10-04-2011, 10:04 PM
I was under the impression that the changeup was his best pitch and he didn't use it as much because he could rely on his fastball and slider out of the pen.

I don't know if I would call his change up his BEST pitch, but it is, without a doubt, much higher than a show me pitch. Relievers don't utilize a change often. I think Sale as a starter makes a ton of sense, and I think you will see the changeup and fastball worked a lot, with the slider as the out pitch.

DirtySox
10-04-2011, 10:07 PM
I was under the impression that the changeup was his best pitch and he didn't use it as much because he could rely on his fastball and slider out of the pen.

I don't think his change is his best pitch, but it's at least average. I recall most scouting reports regarded it better than his slider. We will see in the near future I suppose.

KMcMahon817
10-04-2011, 11:54 PM
What starting workload? He topped off at 103 innings.


http://soxbronzetitan.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/chris-sales-college-stats/

If you would continue reading the link you posted, you would have found out he has pitched a lot more. After pitching 89.1 innings as a starter for FGC in 2009, he pitched 47 innings for the YD Red Sox in the Cape Cod League. In 2010, he pitched 103 innings for FGC and 55 innings for Yarmor-Dennis in the Cape Cod League. That is over 136.1 innings in 2009 and 158 innings in 2010 and that isn't even accounting for the other things he participated in at the ripe age of 20.

Obviously pitching in the majors is a step up from any other baseball competition in the world, but it is for every other 23 year pitcher in the majors. Sale showed nothing but being filthy out of the bullpen, and with his track record of starting in the past, it would be foolish for the SOX to not give him every opportunity to be a starter. 170 innings or so would be a big step for Sale, but it isn't like his arm has never seen that much action.

SI1020
10-05-2011, 09:37 AM
If you would continue reading the link you posted, you would have found out he has pitched a lot more. After pitching 89.1 innings as a starter for FGC in 2009, he pitched 47 innings for the YD Red Sox in the Cape Cod League. In 2010, he pitched 103 innings for FGC and 55 innings for Yarmor-Dennis in the Cape Cod League. That is over 136.1 innings in 2009 and 158 innings in 2010 and that isn't even accounting for the other things he participated in at the ripe age of 20.

Obviously pitching in the majors is a step up from any other baseball competition in the world, but it is for every other 23 year pitcher in the majors. Sale showed nothing but being filthy out of the bullpen, and with his track record of starting in the past, it would be foolish for the SOX to not give him every opportunity to be a starter. 170 innings or so would be a big step for Sale, but it isn't like his arm has never seen that much action. I did see it and you're right, I should have noted it in my post. Haste makes waste or something like that. I like Sale, but he will be tested next year stamina wise. I hope Zisk77 is correct in that his arm angle might mitigate the stress of his delivery.

Lip Man 1
10-05-2011, 11:30 AM
Don Cooper told the Sun-Times today that he hasn't been told a thing about Sale starting next year. Said no decision has been reached yet.

Lip

doublem23
10-05-2011, 12:28 PM
Don Cooper told the Sun-Times today that he hasn't been told a thing about Sale starting next year. Said no decision has been reached yet.

Lip

Does Don Cooper not have the internet?

Tragg
10-05-2011, 01:45 PM
It's a little disturbing that it looks like our staff will be composed of 3s, 4s and 5s (and perhaps only 4s and 5s depending on how Sale does and how one views Floyd). Even bringing MB back makes it a 2/4s/5s, which is tough to win much with.

Foulke You
10-05-2011, 03:23 PM
I was under the impression that the changeup was his best pitch and he didn't use it as much because he could rely on his fastball and slider out of the pen.
I'm just going by what I've seen from him as a reliever and all I've seen out of Chris has been fastball and slider. The change up was sparingly used and didn't look anything special when it was thrown. AJ rarely called for it in key situations.

JorgeFabregas
10-05-2011, 04:23 PM
According to fangraphs, Sale used his changeup 12% of the time in 2011. The fastball was used 51.9% of the time, the slider at 36.2, with 3.2% of pitch types being unknown.

His slider was his most effective pitch, his change was also above average, and his fastball was a little bit below average in its effectiveness.

DonnieDarko
10-05-2011, 04:37 PM
According to fangraphs, Sale used his changeup 12% of the time in 2011. The fastball was used 51.9% of the time, the slider at 36.2, with 3.2% of pitch types being unknown.

His slider was his most effective pitch, his change was also above average, and his fastball was a little bit below average in its effectiveness.

To be fair, I think that that was mostly because for the first part of the season he couldn't locate it very well at all.

Falstaff
10-05-2011, 09:26 PM
Kevin: he never had arm problems because nobody was writing articles about how he would have a blown elbow by Tuesday with his pitching style.

I saw some film of Randy Johnson recently and I am even more convinced Sale is the next Big Unit (I met him after the last game in the players' parking lot and told him I thought he was the next Randy Johnson. He replied he hopes I'm right). Similar style.

OK you guys got my curiosity going, here are some tall pitchers with
notable career for various

Chris Sale 6'6" 180
Tim Lincecum 5'11" 165 bunch of Cy Youngs, healthy
Mark Fydrich 6'3" 175 wildly overused, blew out arm
Jon Rauch 6'10" 290 (!) still in game what a decade post Sox
Randy Johnson 6'10" 225 actually sucked first few years of career
Tommy John 6'3" 180 the original

What can we deduce from this list regarding TJ surgery likelihood
vs body type?

JorgeFabregas
10-05-2011, 10:14 PM
I'm not sure that body type has all that much to do with it, although it could. I think that pitchers who throw sliders usually have more arm problems than pitchers who throw curveballs.

Debates about mechanics are usually fairly controversial. I'm not sure that there's a real consensus.

CWSpalehoseCWS
10-05-2011, 10:45 PM
I'm not sure that body type has all that much to do with it, although it could. I think that pitchers who throw sliders usually have more arm problems than pitchers who throw curveballs.

Debates about mechanics are usually fairly controversial. I'm not sure that there's a real consensus.

I thought it was the other way around? I thought curves are what blows some pitchers arms out.

Lip Man 1
10-05-2011, 11:24 PM
A curve thrown properly doesn't put as much strain on the elbow as a slider. That's a tough pitch to throw ditto for a split finger fastball.

Lip

JorgeFabregas
10-06-2011, 04:06 PM
This is hardly a manifesto on the subject, but check out this article about Buehrle's durability. Blurbs relevant to Sale's development and health are

First, he pitches for the White Sox. Since 2002, the Sox have lost (http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/3/10/1365703/disabled-list-trends-and-team) the fewest number of days (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2010-disable-list-spreadsheet-and-team-information/) to the DL, when compared to every other team

Then, in looking at a few other durable pitchers who are currently active

Looking at these six pitchers, a few attributes are common. They are tall and relatively thin — the average being 6-foot-4 and 219 lbs; they throw more curve balls (15% vs. 9%) and fewer sliders (9% vs. 14%) than an average pitcher; and — as a group — they’re not the hardest throwing-bunch. (The average fastball speed is 90.7 mph.)

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/mark-buehrle-hates-the-disabled-list/

So he's got that the fact that he's not overweight and he's pitching under the Cooper/Herm regime going for him. Working against him is the fact that he throws sliders and is a flamethrower.

TheVulture
10-06-2011, 11:45 PM
Why don't they call in "inverted W" an "M?" Riddle me that...
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r115/subgenius88/NoYaKnow.jpg