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Lip Man 1
09-30-2011, 07:44 PM
Had much to say about the Sox:

1. Doesn't think Francona will be manager. Wants to much money, Sox going in a different direction with team, wants younger guy.

2. Buehrle can fit in with any team in baseball. Thinks Sox could offer him two years, eight million per. Thinks he can ask for and probably get more from someone else.

3. Danks will not be in Sox rotation next year. Will be traded...has higher ceiling and worth more in trade than Floyd.

4. Thinks Q will be traded.

5. Pierre will not be returning.

6. Thinks outfield next year will be some combination of Dayan, DeAza and Rios. Said there's nothing you can do about Rios (i.e. can't move his contract...) also noted that he thinks Rios is being played out of position.

He is not a center fielder.

Sox made mistake with him and Swisher by asking them to play a position they are not used to playing (and added with Swisher that he was being used in the wrong spot in the lineup. Mark Gonzales added that this was because the Jerry Owens / Brian Anderson experiments failed.)

Lip

sullythered
09-30-2011, 07:52 PM
If he's right about Danks, I hope we get a **** load for him.

DirtySox
09-30-2011, 07:53 PM
I don't disagree with a single one of these points.

Noneck
09-30-2011, 08:07 PM
I take if if he thinks Rios cant be moved, that Dunn is impossible?

A. Cavatica
09-30-2011, 08:09 PM
If he's right about Danks, I hope we get a **** load for him.

We missed a great chance to deal him to Boston for their Wednesday game (and possible play-in) plus next year. He does well against Baltimore and TB and you have to think Boston would've had interest.

Brian26
09-30-2011, 08:40 PM
We missed a great chance to deal him to Boston for their Wednesday game (and possible play-in) plus next year. He does well against Baltimore and TB and you have to think Boston would've had interest.

He would have never cleared waivers for that to happen.

Hitmen77
09-30-2011, 09:03 PM
Had much to say about the Sox:

1. Doesn't think Francona will be manager. Wants to much money, Sox going in a different direction with team, wants younger guy.

2. Buehrle can fit in with any team in baseball. Thinks Sox could offer him two years, eight million per. Thinks he can ask for and probably get more from someone else.

3. Danks will not be in Sox rotation next year. Will be traded...has higher ceiling and worth more in trade than Floyd.

4. Thinks Q will be traded.

5. Pierre will not be returning.

6. Thinks outfield next year will be some combination of Dayan, DeAza and Rios. Said there's nothing you can do about Rios (i.e. can't move his contract...) also noted that he thinks Rios is being played out of position.

He is not a center fielder.

Sox made mistake with him and Swisher by asking them to play a position they are not used to playing (and added with Swisher that he was being used in the wrong spot in the lineup. Mark Gonzales added that this was because the Jerry Owens / Brian Anderson experiments failed.)

Lip

Not a surprise here. I doubt Terry Francona wants to come to a team that is looking to shed a ton of tradeable talent to slash payroll.

Let's face it, the 2012 White Sox are very likely to be very low on major league talent and very little in the way of talent coming up through the minors. Whoever takes this job is going to have a tough time winning games.

LITTLE NELL
09-30-2011, 09:11 PM
Rios loooked pretty good in CF in 2010. Unlike Beckham, Rios took his hitting problems with him to CF this year.

I know quite a few BoSox fans and they were tired of Francona like we were of Ozzie, so Stoney is right on him.

Forget next year if we lose TCQ, Buerhle and Danks.

Lip Man 1
09-30-2011, 09:14 PM
Stone said Rios should be playing right field, De Aza in center and Dayan in left.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
09-30-2011, 09:20 PM
Stone said Rios should be playing right field, De Aza in center and Dayan in left.

Lip

If Quentin gets dealt, I agree with Stone here.

SoxSpeed22
09-30-2011, 09:43 PM
Each and every one of those things could happen. Stone Pony knows his stuff, so he should be right on a few of those.

Zakath
09-30-2011, 10:47 PM
Forget next year if we lose TCQ, Buerhle and Danks.

Somehow I'm finding it difficult to believe that we would lose both of our left-handed starters in the same offseason, but you never know...

Hell, I'm left-handed. Maybe I got a shot...

Lamp81
09-30-2011, 11:03 PM
Somehow I'm finding it difficult to believe that we would lose both of our left-handed starters in the same offseason, but you never know...

Hell, I'm left-handed. Maybe I got a shot...

If that happened, Sale gets moved to a starter, for sure. Thornton and Ohman, and maybe a unknown are lefties in BP.

StillMissOzzie
10-01-2011, 12:02 AM
The Sox are already committed to $16.5M over the next 2 years for Gavin Floyd, so I would hope that the Sox could do better than $16M/2 years for Buehrle, who has done much for the team. IMHO, that constitutes a lowball offer that they know will be topped.

I think that would be an embarrassment by the Sox brass.

SMO
:gulp:

Milw
10-01-2011, 07:58 AM
The Sox are already committed to $16.5M over the next 2 years for Gavin Floyd, so I would hope that the Sox could do better than $16M/2 years for Buehrle, who has done much for the team. IMHO, that constitutes a lowball offer that they know will be topped.

I think that would be an embarrassment by the Sox brass.

SMO
:gulp:
I love Buehrle and will be sad when he leaves... but if the Sox are in rebuilding mode (and they ought to be), it makes little sense to pay Buehrle that much. We won't be competing for the two years of that deal, so by the time we really need in him 2014 or 2015 he'll already be gone anyway. Better to spend that money developing young talent. Floyd is already locked in, so comparing his contract is moot.

All that said, if the Sox do extend Buehrle, you won't hear me complain. But to call it "an embarrassment" if they don't is to fail to understand the situation the Sox are in right now. They went "All In" and went bust, and it will be a long and painful road to get back to even.

October26
10-01-2011, 09:25 AM
Not surprised to hear from Steve Stone that Francona's probably not going to be the next White Sox manager. I had that little fantasy for the last 24 hours, but after speaking with my father about the state of the Sox (and the mess that the KW trades/big contracts has created) we realized that it's not gonna happen. Francona is a major league manager and the White Sox roster looks more like a AAA team (except for Paulie & AJ). Just hope we don't see the second coming of Terry Bevington! :(:

Jpgr91
10-01-2011, 09:39 AM
If he's right about Danks, I hope we get a **** load for him.

I don't think teams are lining up to trade for a pitcher that is coming of a season where he had a 5.50 ERA and 1.54 WHIP. If they traded Danks I would be willing to bet that the return would be less than the return for Jackson.

soxinem1
10-01-2011, 09:59 AM
I don't think teams are lining up to trade for a pitcher that is coming of a season where he had a 5.50 ERA and 1.54 WHIP. If they traded Danks I would be willing to bet that the return would be less than the return for Jackson.

Hmmm, Danks had a 4.33 ERA and a 1.34 WHIP. He also got hurt right when he was getting it together.

His arm is also healthy, as Ozzie and Coop were always careful with his workload.

Danks has a lot of value, but I think Floyd is just as likely, if not more, to depart.

doublem23
10-01-2011, 10:04 AM
I don't think teams are lining up to trade for a pitcher that is coming of a season where he had a 5.50 ERA and 1.54 WHIP. If they traded Danks I would be willing to bet that the return would be less than the return for Jackson.

Did we time warp back to October 1, 2007?

Jpgr91
10-01-2011, 12:02 PM
Hmmm, Danks had a 4.33 ERA and a 1.34 WHIP. He also got hurt right when he was getting it together.

His arm is also healthy, as Ozzie and Coop were always careful with his workload.

Danks has a lot of value, but I think Floyd is just as likely, if not more, to depart.

Did we time warp back to October 1, 2007?

Woops.... Even when comparing his 2007 and 2011 seasons there are some remarkable similarities: in 2007 his K/9 was 7.06 in 2011 it was 7.13, his 2007 H/9 was 10.6 in 2011 his H/9 was 9.6, 2007 LOB% 70.5% in 2011 it was 70.1%. My point is that Danks is showing signs of regression which will certainly hurt his trade value.

A. Cavatica
10-01-2011, 12:11 PM
Woops.... Even when comparing his 2007 and 2011 seasons there are some remarkable similarities: in 2007 his K/9 was 7.06 in 2011 it was 7.13, his 2007 H/9 was 10.6 in 2011 his H/9 was 9.6, 2007 LOB% 70.5% in 2011 it was 70.1%. My point is that Danks is showing signs of regression which will certainly hurt his trade value.

Danks' trade value is probably double Jackson's, because

(1) he's a better pitcher,
(2) he's younger,
(3) he's cheaper,
(4) he's lefthanded.

If he is on the trade market he will be in the top five starters available.

Jpgr91
10-01-2011, 12:32 PM
Danks' trade value is probably double Jackson's, because

(1) he's a better pitcher,
(2) he's younger,
(3) he's cheaper,
(4) he's lefthanded.

If he is on the trade market he will be in the top five starters available.

From the Sox perspective I am sure it is. Players that have years like Danks just had aren't going to get a lot of return. Much of his upside is negated in that he only has one more season before he hits the open market. I would not be surprised to see the Sox bring him back to try to reestablish some value in hopes of flipping him at the deadline. It's tough to say that he would be a top 5 starter available considering that we don't yet know what other starters are going to be available via trade.

kobo
10-01-2011, 12:51 PM
The Sox are already committed to $16.5M over the next 2 years for Gavin Floyd, so I would hope that the Sox could do better than $16M/2 years for Buehrle, who has done much for the team. IMHO, that constitutes a lowball offer that they know will be topped.

I think that would be an embarrassment by the Sox brass.

SMO
:gulp:

No, the Sox are committed to $7 million next year for Gavin and then there is a club option for 2013.

Red Barchetta
10-01-2011, 01:22 PM
I agree with pretty much every thing Stone mentioned.

As to the next manager, I think it's between Davey Martinez and Sandy Alomar Jr. I don't get the Tony LaRussa angle. I know he and JR are still good friends, however I don't think that is the direction the organization is heading.

I think we're in for a few years of rebuilding and hopefully we can get a Maddon-like manager who can still succeed through a rebuilding era.

I am still giggling how Joe Maddon and his $42M payroll knocked out the Red Sox by sweeping the Yankees the last three games of the regular season. Love it!!! :D:

A. Cavatica
10-01-2011, 01:43 PM
From the Sox perspective I am sure it is. Players that have years like Danks just had aren't going to get a lot of return. Much of his upside is negated in that he only has one more season before he hits the open market. I would not be surprised to see the Sox bring him back to try to reestablish some value in hopes of flipping him at the deadline. It's tough to say that he would be a top 5 starter available considering that we don't yet know what other starters are going to be available via trade.

Danks' didn't have a bad year, he was right around league average (4.33 ERA for Danks, 4.43 for the league; 1.339 WHIP for Danks, 1.325 for the league).

One league-average year hardly takes the shine off a good young LHP.

And don't forget that the year you seem to think was so bad was still better than Jackson's career averages (4.46 ERA, 1.476 WHIP).

Soxzilla
10-01-2011, 03:33 PM
I wouldn't be opposed to dumping Danks and Rios in the same trade and getting a lot less in return.

Having Rios in a rebuilding lineup not only presents the problem of having Rios in the lineup, but also Rios taking at bats from young guys who could possibly play major league baseball. Not that we probably have any of those guys in our minor league system, but hey, who knows.

StillMissOzzie
10-01-2011, 04:52 PM
No, the Sox are committed to $7 million next year for Gavin and then there is a club option for 2013.

My error. :redface: I stand corrected. It will only be $16.5M over the next 2 years IF the Sox exercise the option in 2013.

I would still rather have Buehrle for the next 2 years.

SMO
:gulp:

TaylorStSox
10-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Not surprised to hear from Steve Stone that Francona's probably not going to be the next White Sox manager. I had that little fantasy for the last 24 hours, but after speaking with my father about the state of the Sox (and the mess that the KW trades/big contracts has created) we realized that it's not gonna happen. Francona is a major league manager and the White Sox roster looks more like a AAA team (except for Paulie & AJ). Just hope we don't see the second coming of Terry Bevington! :(:

I wish people would realize that AJ sucks. Also it's not like we have one of the best SS in baseball.

Anyway, if Stone's right we might not be a good team, but we'll be a hell of a lot more fun to watch.

Milw
10-01-2011, 10:12 PM
I wish people would realize that AJ sucks. Also it's not like we have one of the best SS in baseball.

Anyway, if Stone's right we might not be a good team, but we'll be a hell of a lot more fun to watch.
You're right about AJ (at least post-2008). As for Alexei, it depends on your definition of "one of the best." He's not an elite SS by any means, but he's in the top 10.

TaylorStSox
10-01-2011, 11:16 PM
You're right about AJ (at least post-2008). As for Alexei, it depends on your definition of "one of the best." He's not an elite SS by any means, but he's in the top 10.

Post steroid era, name 9 better short stops. He's as close to a 5 tool SS as just about anybody in the league. Its a shame he doesn't get more fanfare. Yet, AJ is considered above average while being the one of the worst defensive players at a defense first position. His bat is decent at best.

SoxSpeed22
10-01-2011, 11:25 PM
Troy Tulowitzki
Jose Reyes
Jimmy Rollins
Starlin Castro
Asdrubal Cabrera
Elvis Andrus (debatable)
Jeter career-wise is also better, but I didn't count that one. I would say Alexei is somewhere between 4 and 8.

TaylorStSox
10-01-2011, 11:42 PM
Troy Tulowitzki
Jose Reyes
Jimmy Rollins
Starlin Castro
Asdrubal Cabrera
Elvis Andrus (debatable)
Jeter career-wise is also better, but I didn't count that one. I would say Alexei is somewhere between 4 and 8.

Only 2 of those guys are obviously better right now. Yet, "PK and AJ are the only real major league players we have." I really took exception to that statement for 2 reasons... A. Ramirez is way too undervalued. B. AJ is so overvalued its just maddening.

WhiteSox5187
10-02-2011, 12:11 AM
Only 2 of those guys are obviously better right now. Yet, "PK and AJ are the only real major league players we have." I really took exception to that statement for 2 reasons... A. Ramirez is way too undervalued. B. AJ is so overvalued its just maddening.

Before he got hurt AJ was one of the most consistent hitters we had this year. I know that Flowers showed some occasional pop this year and had a better arm but I thought his ability to block pitches in the dirt and ability to hit consistently left a lot to be desired.

October26
10-02-2011, 07:17 AM
I wish people would realize that AJ sucks. Also it's not like we have one of the best SS in baseball.

Anyway, if Stone's right we might not be a good team, but we'll be a hell of a lot more fun to watch.

Only 2 of those guys are obviously better right now. Yet, "PK and AJ are the only real major league players we have." I really took exception to that statement for 2 reasons... A. Ramirez is way too undervalued. B. AJ is so overvalued its just maddening.

Please do not refer to me as people. I am one person and I have a right to my opinion, as do you. I respectfully disagree with you on the matter of AJ "sucking." AJ is a 10 year+ veteran MLB player who has been an All-Star and is also a White Sox team leader. Yes, AJ's defensive skills are woeful, but I was specifically talking about AJ's bat, which I feel is decent. AJ is very intelligent and I believe he could be a wonderful manager someday. As for Alexei, I am a big fan of his but Alexei disappointed me, at times, this past year.

I will agree with you that the Sox will be more fun to watch in 2012, primarily because the Kenny-Ozzie drama is over. I think the Sox players will feel rejuvenated but, of course, pitching is key. Hopefully Kenny gets the manager he wants so they can start working together immediately to try and make our Sox competitve again.

kufram
10-02-2011, 08:01 AM
Please do not refer to me as people. I am one person and I have a right to my opinion, as do you. I respectfully disagree with you on the matter of AJ "sucking." AJ is a 10 year+ veteran MLB player who has been an All-Star and is also a White Sox team leader. Yes, AJ's defensive skills are woeful, but I was specifically talking about AJ's bat, which I feel is decent. AJ is very intelligent and I believe he could be a wonderful manager someday. As for Alexei, I am a big fan of his but Alexei disappointed me, at times, this past year.

I will agree with you that the Sox will be more fun to watch in 2012, primarily because the Kenny-Ozzie drama is over. I think the Sox players will feel rejuvenated but of course, pitching is key. Hopefully Kenny gets the manager he wants so they can start working together immediately to try and make our Sox competitve again.


Good for you. Sometimes it seems like if you're not part of the inside one-up-manship and the "you don't see things the way I do so you must be stupid" persuasion, then you shouldn't have a voice.

AJ is not as a bad defensive a catcher as some make out. He definitely can't throw anyone out, true and I wish he could, but he has a brain and on a team that so many think that is full of "baseball dumb" one would think that would have value. A pitcher can throw in the dirt to him which is mopre valuable. I agree that he could one day be a very good manager and I expect he will manage in a White Sox uniform at some point. The Ozzie days may prove to have been a valuable lesson should that happen.

If Ozzie had to go I'd rather Kenny went too and then start afresh but JR didn't ring for my opinion so it doesn't matter. It is JR's team to run.

I do think we have one of the best SS in the league who has mental lapses at times. I hope that will improve and I think it will. TCM didn't have a great year but who, besides PK, did? He and Beckham are a very good middle infield and only just coming into their own. TCQ needs to learn to bunt and concentrate ALL of the time and Beckham needs to hit better but there still time for that to improve in my opinion.

I do think WSI needs less excitable posters, like you, to post more often to balance things out but I can see why some might choose not to.

doublem23
10-02-2011, 08:08 AM
I wish people would realize that AJ sucks. Also it's not like we have one of the best SS in baseball.

Anyway, if Stone's right we might not be a good team, but we'll be a hell of a lot more fun to watch.

Nobody throws their helmet in a fit after another weak ground out like AJ, though!

Seriously, I cannot believe we have to pay him $6 M next season. Uuuuuuuugh.

Shoeless_Jeff
10-02-2011, 08:14 AM
People complain when Sox players don't show any passion and complain when they do.

doublem23
10-02-2011, 08:16 AM
People complain when Sox players don't show any passion and complain when they do.

Passion does not equal throwing a tantrum on the field when you screw up. If I wanted to watch T-ball, I'd walk to the park.

DumpJerry
10-02-2011, 08:19 AM
People complain when Sox players don't show any passion and complain when they do.
Oney was never on the 40 man or 25 man roster.

TaylorStSox
10-02-2011, 08:37 AM
Please do not refer to me as people. I am one person and I have a right to my opinion, as do you. I respectfully disagree with you on the matter of AJ "sucking." AJ is a 10 year+ veteran MLB player who has been an All-Star and is also a White Sox team leader. Yes, AJ's defensive skills are woeful, but I was specifically talking about AJ's bat, which I feel is decent. AJ is very intelligent and I believe he could be a wonderful manager someday. As for Alexei, I am a big fan of his but Alexei disappointed me, at times, this past year.

I will agree with you that the Sox will be more fun to watch in 2012, primarily because the Kenny-Ozzie drama is over. I think the Sox players will feel rejuvenated but, of course, pitching is key. Hopefully Kenny gets the manager he wants so they can start working together immediately to try and make our Sox competitve again.

I didn't mean to insult you. I'm speaking generally about the large number of fans that act as though AJ is immune to criticism despite having 1 plus defensive attribute, a marginal bat and acting like a baby. If he's been a leader, he has obviously been a poor one. As far as Ramire is concerned, he has lapses but all SS do. He's still among the best defenders in the league. He's also been our 3rd best hitter for a couple years and doesn't have to throw something every time he pops up to prove it. I'm not sure what's disappointing about that.

SCCWS
10-02-2011, 09:21 AM
Danks' didn't have a bad year, he was right around league average (4.33 ERA for Danks, 4.43 for the league; 1.339 WHIP for Danks, 1.325 for the league).

One league-average year hardly takes the shine off a good young LHP.

And don't forget that the year you seem to think was so bad was still better than Jackson's career averages (4.46 ERA, 1.476 WHIP).


Not sure where you got your stats. Was the league 4.43 for all pitchers and not just starters. I believe AL average ERA for starters is around 3.80. I saw a listing of the top AL starters and Danks and Floyd were 31 amd 32 out of 42 based on ERA but with 100+ innings pitched.

doublem23
10-02-2011, 09:38 AM
Not sure where you got your stats. Was the league 4.43 for all pitchers and not just starters. I believe AL average ERA for starters is around 3.80. I saw a listing of the top AL starters and Danks and Floyd were 31 amd 32 out of 42 based on ERA but with 100+ innings pitched.

AL average ERA for starters = 4.23

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/seasontype/2/split/127/league/al

SCCWS
10-02-2011, 10:04 AM
AL average ERA for starters = 4.23

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/seasontype/2/split/127/league/al

But that includes spot starters, September call-ups, etc. Here is a list of the top starters by ERA but is modified by innings pitched. Interesting that Danks is 31st of 42 in WHIP as well. Floyd is much higher in that category.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp#sectionType=sp&playerType=QUALIFIER&statType=pitching&page_type=SortablePlayer&season=2011&season_type=ANY&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='AL'&split=&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position='1'&sortOrder='asc'&sortColumn=era&results=&page=1&perPage=50&timeframe=&extended=0&last_x_days=&ts=1317567453968&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Player+pitching

gobears1987
10-02-2011, 10:21 AM
Oney was never on the 40 man or 25 man roster.

I think he's referring to people complaining when AJ throws his bat to the ground.

DickAllen72
10-02-2011, 10:28 AM
Yes, AJ's defensive skills are woeful,
Woeful my eye. AJ is good at blocking pitches in the dirt, good at calling pitches and good at catching the ball and applying the tag while blocking the plate and taking a hit. His arm is not great but it's not as bad as some here make it out to be. I'd say it's slightly below average. A lot of the SBs are against the pitchers and the SS.

In addition, his "iron man" durability and bat plus baseball acumen and the intangibles he brings make him a valuable member of the team. Not a superstar, but very valuable.

EDIT: BTW, I know you don't believe AJ sucks and were disputing those that say he does, but I am just refuting your describing his defense as being "woeful".

wassagstdu
10-02-2011, 10:29 AM
He's as close to a 5 tool SS as just about anybody in the league.

"Don't give me tools, give me players."

DickAllen72
10-02-2011, 10:31 AM
Seriously, I cannot believe we have to pay him $6 M next season. Uuuuuuuugh.
They have to pay him $6M next year because he unselfishly deferred like $4M til next year so that the Sox could sign Paulie.

doublem23
10-02-2011, 10:34 AM
They have to pay him $6M next year because he unselfishly deferred like $4M til next year so that the Sox could sign Paulie.

Yeah, I guess that's true, thankfully Ozzie opened everyone's eyes as to how hard it is to make it on $2M a year.

I hope AJ uses a nice chunk of that unselfish $6 M to take Dunn, Peavy, and Rios out for a nice steak dinner since their terrible deals really help overshadow his.

wassagstdu
10-02-2011, 10:36 AM
the Sox will be more fun to watch in 2012, primarily because the Kenny-Ozzie drama is over. I think the Sox players will feel rejuvenated but, of course, pitching is key. Hopefully Kenny gets the manager he wants so they can start working together immediately to try and make our Sox competitve again.

Will the Kenny-Ozzie drama be replaced by the Kenny-Newmanager drama? Or does Kenny have in mind to have a mannequin manager? We can't tell which, but extending Baines and giving him an enhanced role before naming a manager suggest one or the other.

Milw
10-02-2011, 10:38 AM
Woeful my eye. AJ is good at blocking pitches in the dirt, good at calling pitches and good at catching the ball and applying the tag while blocking the plate and taking a hit. His arm is not great but it's not as bad as some here make it out to be. I'd say it's slightly below average. A lot of the SBs are against the pitchers and the SS.

In addition, his "iron man" durability and bat plus baseball acumen and the intangibles he brings make him a valuable member of the team. Not a superstar, but very valuable.

EDIT: BTW, I know you don't believe AJ sucks and were disputing those that say he does, but I am just refuting your describing his defense as being "woeful".
I don't dispute most of what you said, but calling AJ's arm "slightly below average" is generous. If we characterize "average" as the 15th best starting catcher in MLB, then that implies that AJ is somewhere in the 16-20 range. There's no way there are 10 starting catchers with a worse arm than AJ. I'd MAYBE believe 5, but honestly, that even seems unlikely to me.

doublem23
10-02-2011, 10:41 AM
Will the Kenny-Ozzie drama be replaced by the Kenny-Newmanager drama? Or does Kenny have in mind to have a mannequin manager? We can't tell which, but extending Baines and giving him an enhanced role before naming a manager suggest one or the other.

I would doubt it unless the Sox hire another psycho. I wouldn't worry too much about Harold, too, as he just keeps this job so he has a nice wooden bench to sleep on.

wassagstdu
10-02-2011, 10:49 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about Harold, too, as he just keeps this job so he has a nice wooden bench to sleep on.

Kenny could have put a secret camera system in the dugout and clubhouse, but he decided instead to extend Baines. Even if that is not accurate, it sends the message that it might be, so everyone had better watch what they say. Sounds like a fun organization to me.

DickAllen72
10-02-2011, 11:55 AM
Yeah, I guess that's true, thankfully Ozzie opened everyone's eyes as to how hard it is to make it on $2M a year.

I hope AJ uses a nice chunk of that unselfish $6 M to take Dunn, Peavy, and Rios out for a nice steak dinner since their terrible deals really help overshadow his.
:rolleyes:

Vernam
10-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Kenny could have put a secret camera system in the dugout and clubhouse, but he decided instead to extend Baines. Even if that is not accurate, it sends the message that it might be, so everyone had better watch what they say. Sounds like a fun organization to me.

Gonzo's semi-incoherent story today implies that would be Harold's main function. Funny quote from Fregosi, who supposedly accused Himes of the same thing.

I think AJ's handling of the pitchers has been one thing -- maybe the main thing -- that kept him around so long. When he was on the DL this year, fwiw, it seemed like they went out of their way to say Flowers did a good job of it.

Not that it's a reason to keep someone around, but AJ is one of the best I've ever seen at smothering balls in the dirt. That has saved us a lot of runs over the years, though maybe not as many as his arm cost us. Santos might miss him most, because having the confidence that his catcher can block low sliders is pretty big for him. I'm not saying Flowers is bad at it, but it doesn't look like a strength so far.

Vernam

StillMissOzzie
10-02-2011, 12:39 PM
They have to pay him $6M next year because he unselfishly deferred like $4M til next year so that the Sox could sign Paulie.

AJ took a total of $8M for 2011 & 2012. By taking only $2M in 2011, he is only deferring $2M into 2012, not $4M. Just sayin' ...

SMO
:gulp:

October26
10-02-2011, 12:44 PM
Good for you. Sometimes it seems like if you're not part of the inside one-up-manship and the "you don't see things the way I do so you must be stupid" persuasion, then you shouldn't have a voice.

AJ is not as a bad defensive a catcher as some make out. He definitely can't throw anyone out, true and I wish he could, but he has a brain and on a team that so many think that is full of "baseball dumb" one would think that would have value. A pitcher can throw in the dirt to him which is mopre valuable. I agree that he could one day be a very good manager and I expect he will manage in a White Sox uniform at some point. The Ozzie days may prove to have been a valuable lesson should that happen.

If Ozzie had to go I'd rather Kenny went too and then start afresh but JR didn't ring for my opinion so it doesn't matter. It is JR's team to run.

I do think we have one of the best SS in the league who has mental lapses at times. I hope that will improve and I think it will. TCM didn't have a great year but who, besides PK, did? He and Beckham are a very good middle infield and only just coming into their own. TCQ needs to learn to bunt and concentrate ALL of the time and Beckham needs to hit better but there still time for that to improve in my opinion.

I do think WSI needs less excitable posters, like you, to post more often to balance things out but I can see why some might choose not to.

Thanks, Kufram. I appreciate your kind words. You make some excellent points above, including the concept that AJ may have learned from watching Ozzie and that this will make AJ a very good manager one day. Wouldn’t it be great to see him as White Sox manager sometime in the future? I think so too.

As for me being a less excitable poster, let me say that I am far from perfect. I was out-of-control this past Monday night. I was watching the Sox game and was also logged on WSI when the rumors–text messages–phone calls started coming in about Ozzie going to Miami. I was surprised at how angry I was and my husband even said to me “calmate” which is “calm down” in Spanish. I was so disappointed with the outcome of this past White Sox season. Watching the Ozzie and Kenny Pressers, I found myself feeling all of these emotions at once: Anger, Denial… until I finally reached Acceptance. I spoke with my 83 year old dad a lot this week and he has helped me to make the transition to where I am now, which is trying to maintain a positive outlook about the future of the White Sox.

October26
10-02-2011, 12:53 PM
I didn't mean to insult you. I'm speaking generally about the large number of fans that act as though AJ is immune to criticism despite having 1 plus defensive attribute, a marginal bat and acting like a baby. If he's been a leader, he has obviously been a poor one. As far as Ramire is concerned, he has lapses but all SS do. He's still among the best defenders in the league. He's also been our 3rd best hitter for a couple years and doesn't have to throw something every time he pops up to prove it. I'm not sure what's disappointing about that.

Thank you, TaylorStSox. I’m not a fan of AJ’s tantrums either but as for everything else about AJ, let’s just agree to disagree.

I want to address your question about why I am so disappointed in Alexei. In order to do so, allow me to digress for just a moment. Like Alexei, I was born in Cuba and I came to the US with my parents. My parents instilled in me a great love for baseball and also a strong work ethic. We came to the United States to work hard and to have a better life. My parents and I take great pride in seeing Cuban born players do well, especially on the White Sox (Orestes Miņoso, Orlando Hernandez , Jose Contreras). As you know, this past season, Alexei Ramirez and Dayan Viciedo (both Cuban players) were on the White Sox roster.

So, my disappointment with Alexei comes from his inconsistency. Alexei is a tremendous talent, yet I’ve seen him make an outstanding play only to throw the ball away on another. And I don’t understand why Alexei can’t bunt. I have seen the Cuban National Team play (during international tournaments) and they are fundamentally sound, in all aspects of playing baseball. I expect the same from Alexei. Even though Dayan has spent less time on the Sox major league roster, I expect him to work hard as well. I also saw too much inconsistent play from Dayan and was disappointed with him. I hold Alexei and Dayan to high standards and perhaps I am being too hard on them and too demanding.

October26
10-02-2011, 12:57 PM
Woeful my eye. AJ is good at blocking pitches in the dirt, good at calling pitches and good at catching the ball and applying the tag while blocking the plate and taking a hit. His arm is not great but it's not as bad as some here make it out to be. I'd say it's slightly below average. A lot of the SBs are against the pitchers and the SS.

In addition, his "iron man" durability and bat plus baseball acumen and the intangibles he brings make him a valuable member of the team. Not a superstar, but very valuable.
EDIT: BTW, I know you don't believe AJ sucks and were disputing those that say he does, but I am just refuting your describing his defense as being "woeful".

Thanks, DickAllen72. I agree with everything you said above. I was specifically referring to AJ’s throwing arm and I should have been more specific in my original post. To me, it appears that AJ’s arm is not very accurate. It seemed like opposing runners ran on AJ at will this past season (and in seasons past) and I think that a strong throwing arm is an important skill for a catcher to possess. I am not a stats person but I remember several games this past season where runners stole second and third base and this put a tremendous amount of pressure on the Sox pitchers. Often times, I saw the opposing teams score as a result of their runners being able to steal any base, any time.

BTW, I also admire AJ’s iron man durability. And I agree that AJ is very valuable.

russ99
10-02-2011, 01:02 PM
Before we throw A.J. away, Flowers is going to have to hit a lot better than .209.

He's no Karkovice defensively, either.

kufram
10-02-2011, 03:27 PM
Flowers did show some promise, I thought. Maybe a year understudying AJ would be worth investing in. I know he'd only play once a week but we need a backup and he needs to prove himself. He would certainly see a pro at work. I like Castro but he's not going to replace AJ.

SOXSINCE'70
10-02-2011, 03:53 PM
Did we time warp back to October 1, 2007?

It feels more like July 31,1997 to me.

That was the day of the god awful "White Flag Trade". :angry:

Milw
10-02-2011, 04:59 PM
It feels more like July 31,1997 to me.

That was the day of the god awful "White Flag Trade". :angry:
:?:

Failing to see many similarities there, sorry.

soxfanatlanta
10-02-2011, 07:50 PM
If Steve Stone is right about the personnel moves this coming winter, I am going to feel sorry for the next guy who manages this team. :(:

Lip Man 1
10-02-2011, 09:22 PM
I guess it all would depend on what the Sox get back in trade though.

Lip

doublem23
10-02-2011, 09:33 PM
It feels more like July 31,1997 to me.

That was the day of the god awful "White Flag Trade". :angry:

I have no idea what you're talking about, John Danks was like 12 years old when the White Flag deal happened, I doubt he was in pro baseball at that time.

October26
10-03-2011, 08:35 AM
Will the Kenny-Ozzie drama be replaced by the Kenny-Newmanager drama? Or does Kenny have in mind to have a mannequin manager? We can't tell which, but extending Baines and giving him an enhanced role before naming a manager suggest one or the other.

Rumour has it that Dave Martinez is Kenny's first choice (with Alomar Jr and Peņa also being in the mix). What I'm thinking is that if Kenny gets his "man", he will be empowered and motivated to work with the new Sox manager. This is only my opinion.

I did hear that Cooper & Baines were offered extension contracts, with Cooper being the pitching coach and Baines being on the team. Did they announce what Baines' role will be? What did you mean by "giving him an enhanced role" in your post above?" I'm thinking whoever the new Sox manager is will determine Baines' role: bench coach, 1B coach, or other? Are you thinking that Kenny will determine that?

Hitmen77
10-03-2011, 08:56 AM
Nobody throws their helmet in a fit after another weak ground out like AJ, though!

Seriously, I cannot believe we have to pay him $6 M next season. Uuuuuuuugh.

That's the price the Sox are paying for not having a suitable replacement in the minors for AJ. They have Flowers, but he looked far from MLB ready after the end of the 2010 season.

Yeah, I guess that's true, thankfully Ozzie opened everyone's eyes as to how hard it is to make it on $2M a year.

:rolling:

DSpivack
10-03-2011, 11:16 AM
Rumour has it that Dave Martinez is Kenny's first choice (with Alomar Jr and Peņa also being in the mix). What I'm thinking is that if Kenny gets his "man", he will be empowered and motivated to work with the new Sox manager. This is only my opinion.

I did hear that Cooper & Baines were offered extension contracts, with Cooper being the pitching coach and Baines being on the team. Did they announce what Baines' role will be? What did you mean by "giving him an enhanced role" in your post above?" I'm thinking whoever the new Sox manager is will determine Baines' role: bench coach, 1B coach, or other? Are you thinking that Kenny will determine that?

It might be a two-sided way of looking at it, but while I think it more than fair that Don Cooper stays, as he has one of the best reputations at pitching coach as any in baseball, I really question announcing Harold will return as a coach. That should be up to the new manager, whomever that may be.

Domeshot17
10-03-2011, 01:59 PM
Only 2 of those guys are obviously better right now. Yet, "PK and AJ are the only real major league players we have." I really took exception to that statement for 2 reasons... A. Ramirez is way too undervalued. B. AJ is so overvalued its just maddening.

I agree and disagree with you. Alexei is a fine SS, but I don't think he is top 5, he is in 2nd tier. I dont think you can call him a 5 tool player because he does nothing great. Good not Great Power, Good not Great Spped, Great Range and Arm but very inconsistent with it. Contact and Eye are just alright. I really like him, but there are 5 SS I would take over him easily if we were just talking pure talent.

TaylorStSox
10-03-2011, 03:20 PM
I agree and disagree with you. Alexei is a fine SS, but I don't think he is top 5, he is in 2nd tier. I dont think you can call him a 5 tool player because he does nothing great. Good not Great Power, Good not Great Spped, Great Range and Arm but very inconsistent with it. Contact and Eye are just alright. I really like him, but there are 5 SS I would take over him easily if we were just talking pure talent.

It's relative to position. It's. 2011, not 2001. Shortstops that's hit as well as him no longer grow on trees. All of his defensive tools are plus. He's the closest thing we have to a 5 tool player. He's pretty damn productive to boot.

Chez
10-03-2011, 03:59 PM
I would like to see a Lillibridge/De Aza platoon in one of the outfield spots next season.

kaufsox
10-03-2011, 04:18 PM
I take if if he thinks Rios cant be moved, that Dunn is impossible?

don't you? I mean he was historically bad, it was in all the papers.

Domeshot17
10-03-2011, 04:24 PM
It's relative to position. It's. 2011, not 2001. Shortstops that's hit as well as him no longer grow on trees. All of his defensive tools are plus. He's the closest thing we have to a 5 tool player. He's pretty damn productive to boot.

He is still not in the class of Tulo-Hanley-Rollins-Reyes and I would say Castro will probably leap him next year. Like I said, he is a solid guy to have, but I wouldn't put him top tier is all.

In terms of us having a 5 tool guy, I would agree, except for years Rios shows up, he is either 5 toolsy or 0 toolsy.

Harry Chappas
10-03-2011, 04:40 PM
I would like to see a Lillibridge/De Aza platoon in one of the outfield spots next season.

I don't. I want De Aza to start from day one. He's played a decent amount this season and has done nothing but produce at a pretty high level. As for Brent, I would like him to remain in his role as super sub but would rather he takes ABs from someone other than De Aza.