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Milw
09-28-2011, 07:21 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/ct-spt-0928-haugh-white-sox-chicago--20110928,0,2823611.column

This is surprising only in the sense that he's being so upfront about it... and because starting from scratch just isn't his style.

I wonder if this will be a total teardown and if even guys like Konerko and AJ could be dealt for parts.

harwar
09-28-2011, 07:55 AM
during his press conference he sounded like someone who is just coming off a long vacation and has to go back to work .. rebuilding goes against his nature and it will be a bitter pill for him i'm sure

Noneck
09-28-2011, 08:37 AM
I am really curious what the Sox consider rebuilding is. If it means trading the likes of PK, Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Ramirez, Crain, Thornton for prospects, thats a start but nowhere near the end. Money then has to be poured into the minor league system for instructors, scouts and draft choices. I am afraid that a so called rebuilding will be just a smoke and mirror show, not a total overhaul of a broken system.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 08:48 AM
I found it interesting that Williams basically offered to fire himself.

TomBradley72
09-28-2011, 08:56 AM
Based on the current shape of the farm system + the untradeable contracts of Dunn/Rios/Peavy/AJ- this should be interesting.

The Immigrant
09-28-2011, 09:10 AM
It makes sense that Kenny would be given the chance to clean up the mess he helped create. Besides, no quality GM candidate would want to step into this situation, with a barren farm system and an over-extended payroll. Now it's time for Kenny to get creative again. With a little bit of luck, this team can contend again really soon.

hawkjt
09-28-2011, 09:13 AM
I am really curious what the Sox consider rebuilding is. If it means trading the likes of PK, Quentin, Danks, Floyd, Ramirez, Crain, Thornton for prospects, thats a start but nowhere near the end. Money then has to be poured into the minor league system for instructors, scouts and draft choices. I am afraid that a so called rebuilding will be just a smoke and mirror show, not a total overhaul of a broken system.


Well, you are on record as wanting the Sox to burn it down totally.
If they do as you please, and are the worst team in baseball the next 3 years, I hope you remember your resolve to take that path.

Many fans who liked the Dunn signing a lot in December, have short term memory loss by June. It is easier to say trade them all now, than it is living thru a few seasons as a minor league team trying to compete in the big leagues.

Viva Medias B's
09-28-2011, 09:18 AM
Given the state of our farm system (abysmal), I cannot trust KW to rebuild us into a contender. Hey, Tom Ricketts, I think I have someone for your team's GM vacancy.

I think we should do half-and-half. That is, to a rebuild but keep key pieces like Konerko and Buehrle in place.

asindc
09-28-2011, 09:21 AM
Given the state of our farm system (abysmal), I cannot trust KW to rebuild us into a contender. Hey, Tom Ricketts, I think I have someone for your team's GM vacancy.

What if JR does not want to spend anymore on the draft, the farm, or scouting than he does now?

blandman
09-28-2011, 09:23 AM
I'm happy we're rebuilding. I'm now happy Ozzie's gone; didn't want him during a rebuild.

I'm disheartened Kenny is staying. He's the wrong GM for a rebuild. He has no regard for the value of prospects, and is even worse at evaluating them. Rebuilding is the right move. Rebuilding with Kenny probably means we'll still be rebuilding five years from now when we get a new GM.

Viva Medias B's
09-28-2011, 09:25 AM
What if JR does not want to spend anymore on the draft, the farm, or scouting than he does now?

Does JR spend a lot on that stuff? If he is smart and really wants to rebuild, he would pool more financial resources in that direction. I think we need a GM who is good at getting rid of bad contracts (Dunn, Rios, Peavy).

Milw
09-28-2011, 09:26 AM
I think we should do half-and-half. That is, to a rebuild but keep key pieces like Konerko and Buehrle in place.
So, you mean, what we did for 2007-2010? Great.

Kenny's philosophy has always been to rebuild while contending. The problem is, it resulted in neither happening. If we're going to rebuild, let's rebuild. If we want to give it one last shot, then let's give it one last shot. But the middle ground thing just isn't working.

asindc
09-28-2011, 09:29 AM
Does JR spend a lot on that stuff? If he is smart and really wants to rebuild, he would pool more financial resources in that direction. I think we need a GM who is good at getting rid of bad contracts (Dunn, Rios, Peavy).

I don't know that KW hasn't tried to convince JR of that in the past but got nowhere with it, or not. You could be right in that KW does not emphasize spending on drafting, scouting, and development because that's his philosophy, but I don't know either way. I need to be convinced that a new GM would somehow get JR to do so when he hasn't during KW's tenure.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 09:29 AM
So, you mean, what we did for 2007-2010? Great.

Kenny's philosophy has always been to rebuild while contending. The problem is, it resulted in neither happening. If we're going to rebuild, let's rebuild. If we want to give it one last shot, then let's give it one last shot. But the middle ground thing just isn't working.

The Sox have more than enough resources to stay competitive at the Major League level while trying to restock the farm system especially since we play in one of the less competitive divisions in the league.

I sincerely doubt Kenny is referring to a straight up complete tear down. But we'll see.

Milw
09-28-2011, 09:32 AM
The Sox have more than enough resources to stay competitive at the Major League level while trying to restock the farm system especially since we play in one of the less competitive divisions in the league.

I sincerely doubt Kenny is referring to a straight up complete tear down. But we'll see.
Well, look, we've done the competitive rebuild thing since 2006, and it's resulted in one playoff win. If we sacrifice a couple years to do a real rebuild--I'm not talking about a slash and burn, but one where we concede that we're not going to be competitive in the short-term--then we could own this division for several years instead of scraping just to get to 86 wins.

asindc
09-28-2011, 09:36 AM
Well, look, we've done the competitive rebuild thing since 2006, and it's resulted in one playoff win. If we sacrifice a couple years to do a real rebuild--I'm not talking about a slash and burn, but one where we concede that we're not going to be competitive in the short-term--then we could own this division for several years instead of scraping just to get to 86 wins.

You are speaking as a hardcore fan. One of the many questions JR has to answer this offseason is whether the organization can sustain a 2-3 year total rebuild from a financial standpoint. I know that is not a fan's responsibility, but that does not mean JR can just ignore that issue.

kittle42
09-28-2011, 09:36 AM
I have no problem with a total rebuild. What I don't want is continued half-assed "competitiveness" in a **** division. Go one way or go the other.

blandman
09-28-2011, 09:39 AM
You are speaking as a hardcore fan. One of the many questions JR has to answer this offseason is whether the organization can sustain a 2-3 year total rebuild from a financial standpoint. I know that is not a fan's responsibility, but that does not mean JR can just ignore that issue.

Well, the choice is try or don't win another world series ever.

blandman
09-28-2011, 09:40 AM
I have no problem with a total rebuild. What I don't want is continued half-assed "competitiveness" in a **** division. Go one way or go the other.

I agree with this, but I don't think many people here will.

kittle42
09-28-2011, 09:40 AM
Well, the choice is try or don't win another world series ever.

I wouldn't worry about the World Series, as I have read on these boards that we are now guaranteed to go 40 years without one.

GoGoCrede
09-28-2011, 09:41 AM
I wouldn't worry about the World Series, as I have read on these boards that we are now guaranteed to go 40 years without one.

I should bookmark those posts for later. :tongue:

kittle42
09-28-2011, 09:41 AM
I agree with this, but I don't think many people here will.

Why would anyone want to continue what we have had the past 3-4 seasons?

doublem23
09-28-2011, 09:42 AM
Why would anyone want to continue what we have had the past 3-4 seasons?

Before we throw the baby out with the bath water, can we at least see what happens if we have a competent coaching staff?

Scottiehaswheels
09-28-2011, 09:47 AM
Before we throw the baby out with the bath water, can we at least see what happens if we have a competent coaching staff?
Can we also put more assets towards advanced scouting as according to a few players, that is an issue too. Also wonder if more will be spent on the draft to rebuild quicker than otherwise.

Irishsox1
09-28-2011, 09:52 AM
I have no faith in Kenny Krause doing anything that actually resembles a proper rebuild. The guy tried to quit 5 times and that is 4 times too many for me. He's in over his head.

Milw
09-28-2011, 09:55 AM
You are speaking as a hardcore fan. One of the many questions JR has to answer this offseason is whether the organization can sustain a 2-3 year total rebuild from a financial standpoint. I know that is not a fan's responsibility, but that does not mean JR can just ignore that issue.
I get that. But the malaise this team experienced this year will be costlier in the long-run by turning off casual and hardcore fans alike if things don't change. JR needs to either commit to another season of All In--and I don't think anybody thinks that's a good idea at this point--or he needs to bite the bullet and field a truly competitive team in 2014.

I'm sure neither of those are particularly attractive options for him, especially considering his age... but I'd rather follow two losing seasons with a pennant than have three winning seasons and nothing to show for it.

Milw
09-28-2011, 09:55 AM
I have no faith in Kenny Krause doing anything that actually resembles a proper rebuild. The guy tried to quit 5 times and that is 4 times too many for me. He's in over his head.
The Krause thing is silly. Stop it.

asindc
09-28-2011, 09:57 AM
I have no faith in Kenny Krause doing anything that actually resembles a proper rebuild. The guy tried to quit 5 times and that is 4 times too many for me. He's in over his head.

Yeah, you're right. He has no idea how to build a championship team. If he really wants to quit, he would quit. He needs no one's permission to do so. To be precise, he offered to step down if JR wanted. JR did not want, so here we are, wondering if it is JR refusing to spend on drafting, scouting, and development, or if it is KW not wanting to, or a combination of the two. I wish we knew which one it is.

Jollyroger2
09-28-2011, 10:06 AM
Meh. I'll believe whatever happens when it does. I'm sick of talk. This team's farm system is shot and they're paying a lot of money to underachieving slackers. As this latest season of failure grinds to a halt (as if it ever got going) I'm less and less interested in what this franchise says they're going to do.

I still think there are many years of mediocrity and losing yet to go.

blandman
09-28-2011, 10:06 AM
Why would anyone want to continue what we have had the past 3-4 seasons?

There's been a very vocal majority on this site adamantly opposed to a rebuild.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 10:06 AM
Great!

This makes me happy. A respectable farm system is desperately needed. Bring on the rebuild.

Boondock Saint
09-28-2011, 10:10 AM
The Krause thing is silly. Stop it.


Agreed.

dickallen15
09-28-2011, 10:10 AM
I'm disheartened Kenny is staying. He's the wrong GM for a rebuild. He has no regard for the value of prospects, and is even worse at evaluating them.
This coming from the guy who said Derrick Rose would be a bust of epic proportions and the Bulls should take Michael Beasley, and predicted the team KW put together this year was good enough for 97 wins. Talk about a Monday morning QB. I find that hysterical.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 10:10 AM
I'm happy we're rebuilding. I'm now happy Ozzie's gone; didn't want him during a rebuild.

I'm disheartened Kenny is staying. He's the wrong GM for a rebuild. He has no regard for the value of prospects, and is even worse at evaluating them. Rebuilding is the right move. Rebuilding with Kenny probably means we'll still be rebuilding five years from now when we get a new GM.

First time I've agreed with you in a while, and I do whole heartedly. There is a crucial need to address this aspect of the organization and it's one of the reasons the Sox aren't able to sustain success. Looking forward to it even though I'm not sure I want Kenny in charge of the undertaking.

Irishsox1
09-28-2011, 10:11 AM
The Krause thing is silly. Stop it.


What has Kenny Williams done in the last 3 years not to be mocked in some fashion?

1. Picks up Alex Rios and his massive contract
2. Trades for Jake Peavy, signs him to massive contact
3. Trades Daniel Hudson for Edwin Jackson
4. Signs Adam Dunn to massive contract
5. Tried to quit his job 5 times

These deals are ones that should cost a GM his job, yet he's still here and he's tried to quit (his own words). Kinda like Jerry Krause and his horrible post Jordan moves and Reinsdorf sticking with the guy when it is obvious it's time to go.

Kenny has rightfully earned the Kenny Krause nickname.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 10:15 AM
Kenny has rightfully earned the Kenny Krause nickname.

No, it's actually pretty stupid, and pretty blatant revisionist history. Jerry Krause has six championship rings, and if you want to use the tired old line, "DURRRRRRRRRRRRR HE HAD MJ," perhaps you should ask LeBron James how much "team" you need to build around the best player in the world to win one, let alone six, championships.

Feel free to keep using the nickname, though, it makes it a lot easier not to take your posts seriously. :thumbsup:

Noneck
09-28-2011, 10:17 AM
Well, you are on record as wanting the Sox to burn it down totally.
If they do as you please, and are the worst team in baseball the next 3 years, I hope you remember your resolve to take that path.



Actually, I am not. I would like the chairman to spend all the stock holders grandchildren money and out spend the yanks. But since thats not going to happen a true rebuild and being the worse team in baseball for 3 years sure beats patching a totally broken system, with the result being a 3rd place .500 non competitive team and maybe getting lucky a couple times a decade to compete for a playoff spot.

I want to make sure you realize when I say a true rebuild, I mean of the total organization and how it is run, not just the minor league system

DeadMoney
09-28-2011, 10:22 AM
Can we also put more assets towards advanced scouting as according to a few players, that is an issue too. Also wonder if more will be spent on the draft to rebuild quicker than otherwise.

And maybe a video/scouting department that actually rivals with what other teams seem to have.

Rebuilding isn't exclusive to only the on-field product. Things in this organization have to change all over the place. I'm not sure Kenny is the guy that can facilitate that type of organizational change, but time will tell.

blandman
09-28-2011, 10:22 AM
No, it's actually pretty stupid, and pretty blatant revisionist history. Jerry Krause has six championship rings, and if you want to use the tired old line, "DURRRRRRRRRRRRR HE HAD MJ," perhaps you should ask LeBron James how much "team" you need to build around the best player in the world to win one, let alone six, championships.

Feel free to keep using the nickname, though, it makes it a lot easier not to take your posts seriously. :thumbsup:

No kidding. Krause made a huge trade to bring a young Scottie in, and always put together the right pieces around them. Even when MJ left, his eye for talent wasn't as off as people like to remember. Elton Brand was a pretty good player for a long time, and Tyson Chandler's stock has risen so high he's the number one free agent target this offseason.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 10:27 AM
But since thats not going to happen a true rebuild and being the worse team in baseball for 3 years sure beats patching a totally broken system, with the result being a 3rd place .500 non competitive team and maybe getting lucky a couple times a decade to compete for a playoff spot..

Yeah right, over the last several years the Pirates have spent more money on the draft and player bonuses and that's seemed to work out real well for them, right? This idea that you can totally tear down a team, start from nothing and then build a winner is just insanely unrealistic and navie; by my count, it has happened one time, and that team needed to be a laughingstock for 10 years and now will probably be forced to sell off anyway because, the end result of being a joke for a decade is that they have no fanbase.

Look, I get that the Sox farm system is pretty empty and that there needs to be some organizational revision now that this "all in" approach failed, but this idea that the Sox can just rebuild a winner from within in a few seasons is just completely laughable. Of the guys we've traded away the last few seasons, you have what? Three guys that might have been worth hanging on to? Hudson, Gio, and Young? And then you go back to 2000, when the Sox had the consensus #1 farm system in the Major Leagues and look at what it produced... Buehrle, sure, and then whose the 2nd best player from that bunch? Joe Crede, a guy whose career OPS+ is 92?

I know people are frustrated by the Sox spinning their wheels, but you got to be careful for what you wish for. If you look at the teams with winning models, not many of them have gone through the "total rebuild" route.

g0g0
09-28-2011, 10:28 AM
I don't buy the rebuilding while contending notion. You usually can't do both. Either you are competitive and adding a pieces to get over the hump, or you are rebuilding for the future. .500 ball won't win a division or even a playoff spot.

delben91
09-28-2011, 10:33 AM
I have no issue with a re-build as long as there's a clear plan for it and not just trading veterans for "prospects" for the sake of losing payroll vice adding future talent.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 10:33 AM
I don't buy the rebuilding while contending notion. You usually can't do both. Either you are competitive and adding a pieces to get over the hump

See, that's not true at all. Look at the 8 teams that are going to the postseason this year. If the Red Sox get in, then you have all 8 that were built in some fashion between good drafting, good free agent pickups, good trades, etc. None of them started with nothing and built their teams from the ground up internally. It just really does not happen that often in baseball.

blandman
09-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Yeah right, over the last several years the Pirates have spent more money on the draft and player bonuses and that's seemed to work out real well for them, right? This idea that you can totally tear down a team, start from nothing and then build a winner is just insanely unrealistic, by my count, it has happened one time, and that team needed to be a laughingstock for 10 years and now will probably be forced to sell off anyway because, the end result of being a joke for a decade is that they have no fanbase.

Look, I get that the Sox farm system is pretty empty and that there needs to be some organizational revision now that this "all in" approach failed, but this idea that the Sox can just rebuild a winner from within in a few seasons is just completely laughable. Of the guys we've traded away the last few seasons, you have what? Three guys that might have been worth hanging on to? Hudson, Gio, and Young? And then you go back to 2000, when the Sox had the consensus #1 farm system in the Major Leagues and look at what it produced... Buehrle, sure, and then whose the 2nd best player from that bunch? Joe Crede, a guy whose career OPS+ is 92?

I know people are frustrated by the Sox spinning their wheels, but you got to be careful for what you wish for. If you look at the teams with winning models, not many of them have gone through the "total rebuild" route.

Actually, other than the major market spenders (Yanks, Red Sox, Phils, LAA), they all did.

There is a middle ground, but it's usually those huge income teams that are able to use it. Do we qualify? That's up for debate. When this team loses, it doesn't draw at all. Can't say that for those other teams. There's a lot more risk in not going all out to compete.

As for the Pirates, they finally have a good GM. Won't be long.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 10:37 AM
See, that's not true at all. Look at the 8 teams that are going to the postseason this year. If the Red Sox get in, then you have all 8 that were built in some fashion between good drafting, good free agent pickups, good trades, etc. None of them started with nothing and built their teams from the ground up internally. It just really does not happen that often in baseball.

This is indeed the ideal model Doub. It's what I've been arguing and hoping for, for years. Most of the powerhouse organizations spend considerably on both the draft/amateur talent as well as on the major league team. It's plain to see for most. I'm crossing my fingers that after an inveitable reigning in of payroll, we see the Sox adopt said model after they get back on their feet a bit in the farm department.

Link I post far too often regarding Bonus Spending. (http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2011/08/bonus-expenditures-2007-11/) (See Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers)

October26
09-28-2011, 10:37 AM
What has Kenny Williams done in the last 3 years not to be mocked in some fashion?

1. Picks up Alex Rios and his massive contract
2. Trades for Jake Peavy, signs him to massive contact
3. Trades Daniel Hudson for Edwin Jackson
4. Signs Adam Dunn to massive contract
5. Tried to quit his job 5 times

These deals are ones that should cost a GM his job, yet he's still here and he's tried to quit (his own words). Kinda like Jerry Krause and his horrible post Jordan moves and Reinsdorf sticking with the guy when it is obvious it's time to go.

Kenny has rightfully earned the Kenny Krause nickname.

Fantastic Factual Post. Love the KK nickname. lol!

I wish Mr. Reinsdorf would have accepted Kenny's resignation. You're right, every other organization would have shown KK the door by now or at least reassigned him to do something else within the Sox organization. Very disappointed that Kenny is still the Sox GM.

asindc
09-28-2011, 10:38 AM
Yeah right, over the last several years the Pirates have spent more money on the draft and player bonuses and that's seemed to work out real well for them, right? This idea that you can totally tear down a team, start from nothing and then build a winner is just insanely unrealistic and navie; by my count, it has happened one time, and that team needed to be a laughingstock for 10 years and now will probably be forced to sell off anyway because, the end result of being a joke for a decade is that they have no fanbase.

Look, I get that the Sox farm system is pretty empty and that there needs to be some organizational revision now that this "all in" approach failed, but this idea that the Sox can just rebuild a winner from within in a few seasons is just completely laughable. Of the guys we've traded away the last few seasons, you have what? Three guys that might have been worth hanging on to? Hudson, Gio, and Young? And then you go back to 2000, when the Sox had the consensus #1 farm system in the Major Leagues and look at what it produced... Buehrle, sure, and then whose the 2nd best player from that bunch? Joe Crede, a guy whose career OPS+ is 92?

I know people are frustrated by the Sox spinning their wheels, but you got to be careful for what you wish for. If you look at the teams with winning models, not many of them have gone through the "total rebuild" route.

:clap: :teach: :thumbsup:

I'm not against rebuilding, but as you point out, there is risk involved with a total rebuild as well. It's not as simple as rebuilding the farm system while not taking on any big money contracts. There are many, many factors to consider, some of the off-field nature.

Noneck
09-28-2011, 10:39 AM
Yeah right, over the last several years the Pirates have spent more money on the draft and player bonuses and that's seemed to work out real well for them, right? This idea that you can totally tear down a team, start from nothing and then build a winner is just insanely unrealistic and navie; by my count, it has happened one time, and that team needed to be a laughingstock for 10 years and now will probably be forced to sell off anyway because, the end result of being a joke for a decade is that they have no fanbase.

Look, I get that the Sox farm system is pretty empty and that there needs to be some organizational revision now that this "all in" approach failed, but this idea that the Sox can just rebuild a winner from within in a few seasons is just completely laughable. Of the guys we've traded away the last few seasons, you have what? Three guys that might have been worth hanging on to? Hudson, Gio, and Young? And then you go back to 2000, when the Sox had the consensus #1 farm system in the Major Leagues and look at what it produced... Buehrle, sure, and then whose the 2nd best player from that bunch? Joe Crede, a guy whose career OPS+ is 92?

I know people are frustrated by the Sox spinning their wheels, but you got to be careful for what you wish for. If you look at the teams with winning models, not many of them have gone through the "total rebuild" route.

If it is done it will be painful for the fans and should also be for the stockholders. Yes, it will entail red in books for awhile. The pirates invested in draft choices and a minor system but then sold off these assets to show black. If this is done you are right it continues for all eternity.

Domeshot17
09-28-2011, 10:42 AM
I think it is the right move, although I think we could remain somewhat competitive during it if done properly. I tend to want to give Kenny a little slack, not a ton (stuff like the Hudson trade was moronic) but some of the moves like Rios and Dunn, people here RAVED over until those guys failed this year. Last year, people were calling Kenny a genius for the Rios move, no one in the Peavy deal has amounted to much and honestly, it isnít Kennyís fault Peavy ripped muscle off bone in a way no one in the bigs has ever done before.

My big concern is Kenny is the right GM if you want a team with a chance to win now. Most on this site thought this team could win a world series, the talent WAS there. I would actually like to see this team given another shot under a different manager. That said, if you really are going to rebuild, Hahn is the guy to do it. He is much better in terms of the prospects and more of a prospective talent evaluator than Kenny.

delben91
09-28-2011, 10:46 AM
I think it is the right move, although I think we could remain somewhat competitive during it if done properly. I tend to want to give Kenny a little slack, not a ton (stuff like the Hudson trade was moronic) but some of the moves like Rios and Dunn, people here RAVED over until those guys failed this year. Last year, people were calling Kenny a genius for the Rios move, no one in the Peavy deal has amounted to much and honestly, it isnít Kennyís fault Peavy ripped muscle off bone in a way no one in the bigs has ever done before.

My big concern is Kenny is the right GM if you want a team with a chance to win now. Most on this site thought this team could win a world series, the talent WAS there. I would actually like to see this team given another shot under a different manager. That said, if you really are going to rebuild, Hahn is the guy to do it. He is much better in terms of the prospects and more of a prospective talent evaluator than Kenny.

Assuming that's true (I don't know enough about Hahn, so I'll grant the premise for the sake of argument), and Hahn stays with the Sox, is there a reason to expect he wouldn't have a major role in any rebuild? Honest question.

Domeshot17
09-28-2011, 10:51 AM
Assuming that's true (I don't know enough about Hahn, so I'll grant the premise for the sake of argument), and Hahn stays with the Sox, is there a reason to expect he wouldn't have a major role in any rebuild? Honest question.

That is the big issue. The guy is one of the top 3 assistant GMs in the game. He is going to get offers to be a full GM, and soon.

tstrike2000
09-28-2011, 10:55 AM
I found it interesting that Williams basically offered to fire himself.

Yeah, perhaps he realizes he's made too many mistakes and doesn't deserve the job or just doesn't want to go through that very rebuilding process he's recommending.

Irishsox1
09-28-2011, 10:59 AM
I would rather see Rick Hahn get the opportunity to tear down and build from scratch then see Kenny fumble around, screw it up and then try to quit....again.

Milw
09-28-2011, 11:00 AM
What has Kenny Williams done in the last 3 years not to be mocked in some fashion?

1. Picks up Alex Rios and his massive contract
2. Trades for Jake Peavy, signs him to massive contact
3. Trades Daniel Hudson for Edwin Jackson
4. Signs Adam Dunn to massive contract
5. Tried to quit his job 5 times

These deals are ones that should cost a GM his job, yet he's still here and he's tried to quit (his own words). Kinda like Jerry Krause and his horrible post Jordan moves and Reinsdorf sticking with the guy when it is obvious it's time to go.

Kenny has rightfully earned the Kenny Krause nickname.
Moves 1, 2 and 4 were overwhelmingly popular on this very message board at the times they were made. The Dunn signing in particular was deemed a coup--not just by Sox fans, but across baseball--by experts and fans alike. They haven't worked out. Fine.

The Hudson-Jackson deal missed. But it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Zach Stewart ends up on par with Hudson when it's all said and done.

And you conveniently omitted all the good stuff he's done: claiming Humber, converting Santos, drafting Sale, trading for Quentin, re-signing Konerko. His recent track record is very imperfect, but not NEARLY as bad as your petty "summation" would have it seem.

As for "trying to quit 5 times," I respect a guy who is willing to fall on the sword. That's not the mark of a quitter; that's the mark of a man who puts the good of the organization above his own ego. That's cause for admiration, not mockery.

Grow up.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 11:00 AM
That is the big issue. The guy is one of the top 3 assistant GMs in the game. He is going to get offers to be a full GM, and soon.

Will someone PLEASE explain to me the love affair with Hahn? I know SI or whatever spoon-fed everyone by naming him the #1 GM prospect or whatever, but even his bio on the Sox website says that one of his major roles in the organization is player development and what not, in a thread with everyone complaining about how ****ty the Sox farm system... I really just don't get it... I'm fine with Hahn, but what has he done to earn this devotion? I honestly can't see how anyone would be so critical of the job Williams has done and then turn around and talk about how much they want his right-hand man to do the job.

kittle42
09-28-2011, 11:05 AM
Will someone PLEASE explain to me the love affair with Hahn? I know SI or whatever spoon-fed everyone by naming him the #1 GM prospect or whatever, but even his bio on the Sox website says that one of his major roles in the organization is player development and what not, in a thread with everyone complaining about how ****ty the Sox farm system... I really just don't get it... I'm fine with Hahn, but what has he done to earn this devotion? I honestly can't see how anyone would be so critical of the job Williams has done and then turn around and talk about how much they want his right-hand man to do the job.

Somebody said he was good, so everybody just ran with it without any actual knowledge.

dickallen15
09-28-2011, 11:06 AM
Will someone PLEASE explain to me the love affair with Hahn? I know SI or whatever spoon-fed everyone by naming him the #1 GM prospect or whatever, but even his bio on the Sox website says that one of his major roles in the organization is player development and what not, in a thread with everyone complaining about how ****ty the Sox farm system... I really just don't get it... I'm fine with Hahn, but what has he done to earn this devotion? I honestly can't see how anyone would be so critical of the job Williams has done and then turn around and talk about how much they want his right-hand man to do the job.

Its the back up QB syndrome. He's great until he plays, then everyone knew he was a bum and there was a reason he wasn't the top guy all along.

Noneck
09-28-2011, 11:07 AM
I would rather see Rick Hahn get the opportunity to tear down and build from scratch then see Kenny fumble around, screw it up and then try to quit....again.

Ideally both working together would be best because both probably have different skills. I think this tandem could handle the situation as long there is no outside interference.

Harry Chappas
09-28-2011, 11:09 AM
I could suffer through a rebuild if - and only if - we had a new GM with a proven track record of identifying and signing young talent. But this has never been a KW strength so why should we as fans trust that he is going to suddenly start taking scouting seriously and that more money will be allocated to it and that we won't continue to draft the most signable guys, talent be damned?

I agree with whoever posted that KW is probably not the best GM for a rebuild.

Besides, I think the "rebuild" will involve getting rid of some of the more productive, expensive, veterans and replacing them with cheaper alternatives. So we'll basically surround our overpaid busts (Rios and Dunn) with younger, unproven, guys and the farm system will be business as usual.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 11:11 AM
I could suffer through a rebuild if - and only if - we had a new GM with a proven track record of identifying and signing young talent. But this has never been a KW strength so why should we as fans trust that he is going to suddenly start taking scouting seriously and that more money will be allocated to it and that we won't continue to draft the most signable guys, talent be damned?

FWIW, before he was promoted to GM, Kenny was the Director of Minor League Operations and later the Vice President of Player Development between 1995-2000. The farm system, under his leadership, was the best in baseball by the time he was promoted in 2000.

asindc
09-28-2011, 11:15 AM
Moves 1, 2 and 4 were overwhelmingly popular on this very message board at the times they were made. The Dunn signing in particular was deemed a coup--not just by Sox fans, but across baseball--by experts and fans alike. They haven't worked out. Fine.

Who cares that most, if not all, baseball analysts thought these were good moves or that most Sox fans welcomed these moves. They just prove his incompetence.

The Hudson-Jackson deal missed. But it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Zach Stewart ends up on par with Hudson when it's all said and done.

No, no, no, you're looking at it all wrong. What matters is that Rick Hahn would have done it differently, for sure.

And you conveniently omitted all the good stuff he's done: claiming Humber, converting Santos, drafting Sale, trading for Quentin, re-signing Konerko. His recent track record is very imperfect, but not NEARLY as bad as your petty "summation" would have it seem.

Come on, man, any GM could have made those moves. Just look at Theo Epstein this past offseason, he... oh wait.

As for "trying to quit 5 times," I respect a guy who is willing to fall on the sword. That's not the mark of a quitter; that's the mark of a man who puts the good of the organization above his own ego. That's cause for admiration, not mockery.

Grow up.

Seriously, dude, can't you see that it is a clear lack of character that he is willing to be held accountable for this season's failures? It's obvious!!

asindc
09-28-2011, 11:16 AM
FWIW, before he was promoted to GM, Kenny was the Director of Minor League Operations and later the Vice President of Player Development between 1995-2000. The farm system, under his leadership, was the best in baseball by the time he was promoted in 2000.

Liar!

spawn
09-28-2011, 11:23 AM
Who cares that most, if not all, baseball analysts thought these were good moves or that most Sox fans welcomed these moves. They just prove his incompetence.



No, no, no, you're looking at it all wrong. What matters is that Rick Hahn would have done it differently, for sure.



Come on, man, any GM could have made those moves. Just look at Theo Epstein this past offseason, he... oh wait.



Seriously, dude, can't you see that it is a clear lack of character that he is willing to be held accountable for this season's failures? It's obvious!!

Liar!

:thumbsup:

russ99
09-28-2011, 11:23 AM
Can we take off the blinders and admit that measured up against the real World Series contenders the last few years that we didn't have the talent to compete?

It's sickening that so many want to lay down this team's failures at the feet of a few coaches, when it's obvious that the entire system is broken.

spawn
09-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Somebody said he was good, so everybody just ran with it without any actual knowledge.

That NEVER happens here.

spawn
09-28-2011, 11:27 AM
Can we take off the blinders and admit that measured up against the real World Series contenders the last few years that we didn't have the talent to compete?

It's sickening that so many want to lay down this team's failures at the feet of a few coaches, when it's obvious that the entire system is broken.

Maybe, but this team definitely had the talent to win this ****ty division the last few years, and has failed miserably.

Nellie_Fox
09-28-2011, 11:36 AM
I should bookmark those posts for later. :tongue:While you're at it, bookmark the posts from everybody who is all excited about "re-building," because I don't want to hear them bitching and moaning when the Sox absolutely suck for five years. When a GM starts talking about a re-build, that's really what he's telling you to prepare for.

Milw
09-28-2011, 11:37 AM
While you're at it, bookmark the posts from everybody who is all excited about "re-building," because I don't want to hear them bitching and moaning when the Sox absolutely suck for five years. When a GM starts talking about a re-build, that's really what he's telling you to prepare for.
Rebuilding is like getting teeth drilled. I can agree that it's a good idea and still not enjoy it.

asindc
09-28-2011, 11:38 AM
While you're at it, bookmark the posts from everybody who is all excited about "re-building," because I don't want to hear them bitching and moaning when the Sox absolutely suck for five years. When a GM starts talking about a re-build, that's really what he's telling you to prepare for.

Nah, it will be a smooth transition with no setbacks at all.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 11:39 AM
Rebuilding is like getting teeth drilled. I can agree that it's a good idea and still not enjoy it.

This guy gets it.

NardiWasHere
09-28-2011, 11:40 AM
Maybe I'm delusional.

The fact that this team should have been very good made the season even more painful.

I think they might still be close to something. I'm all-in on All-In Part II. Keeping with the poker analogy... Buy back in... You're pot committed.

In all honesty... what rebuilding can they really do? No one is taking Peavy, Rios, Dunn etc.

GoGoCrede
09-28-2011, 11:42 AM
Nah, it will be a smooth transition with no setbacks at all.

Cheaper tickets might be one of the positives.

Nellie_Fox
09-28-2011, 11:44 AM
Rebuilding is like getting teeth drilled. I can agree that it's a good idea and still not enjoy it.You want your teeth drilled for five years?

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 11:44 AM
In all honesty... what rebuilding can they really do? No one is taking Peavy, Rios, Dunn etc.

They instead will be moving players such as Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Thornton, and possibly Alexei.

GoGoCrede
09-28-2011, 11:45 AM
Also, I feel like KW said this a year or so ago too. Am I crazy, or does anyone else remember him saying this in 2010?

Milw
09-28-2011, 11:51 AM
Also, I feel like KW said this a year or so ago too. Am I crazy, or does anyone else remember him saying this in 2010?
That's where "All In" came from. Kenny didn't expect to get JR to sign off on the big payroll they needed to sign everybody they did. He's certainly not going all-in two years in a row, so here's the rebuild a year later.

NardiWasHere
09-28-2011, 11:52 AM
They instead will be moving players such as Danks, Floyd, Quentin, Thornton, and possibly Alexei.

I wouldn't be opposed to moving those guys necessarily (depending on the return)... but this doesn't sound like some new KW strategy. I'd expect some of those guys to be moved anyway.

Next year your infield is the same for the most part +/- Alexei.

You'll most likely have Rios + De Aza + Viciedo. Right?

DH is the same.

The rotation will be Peavy, Sale, Humber, Stewart, Danks/Floyd/New

Eh... looks like a reload more than a traditional rebuild, right?

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 11:56 AM
Eh... looks like a reload more than a traditional rebuild, right?

I don't think one can classify it as a reload until it actually happens. Much will be gleaned from seeing what type of return Kenny receives in his deals. Close to major league ready talent, or A-Ball prospects? A , B, or C prospects? Judging from Kenny's comments it doesn't sound like he expects any sort of quick fix. Besides, a quick "reload" doesn't necessarily cure what ails this organization.

Milw
09-28-2011, 11:58 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to moving those guys necessarily (depending on the return)... but this doesn't sound like some new KW strategy. I'd expect some of those guys to be moved anyway.

Next year your infield is the same for the most part +/- Alexei.

You'll most likely have Rios + De Aza + Viciedo. Right?

DH is the same.

The rotation will be Peavy, Sale, Humber, Stewart, Danks/Floyd/New

Eh... looks like a reload more than a traditional rebuild, right?
If Konerko and AJ get dealt, then it becomes a traditional rebuild. I'm not saying I expect that to happen, but I'm bracing for it. It will be a sad, sad day, but I can't say I would disagree, assuming we got back a good return. (Particularly for Konerko; I can see the logic in giving AJ away, particularly with Flowers' recent emergence.)

I would also suggest considering selling Santos at the trade deadline next year. Teams always overpay for closers during a pennant race, and while I like Santos' stuff, he's replaceable. Addison Reed may be a legit closer option by the time 2014 rolls around.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 11:59 AM
Addison Reed may be a legit closer option by the time 2014 rolls around.

Addison Reed could be a legit closer option next year. His stuff is that good.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 11:59 AM
This guy gets it.

Gets what? Getting your teeth drilled sucks, but it has a pay-off, of having healthier teeth. There are almost no examples of teams blowing themselves completely up and then becoming legitimate World Series contenders by building from within, and the only one I can come up with, needed a decade of being absolutely horrendous to do it.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 12:10 PM
There are almost no examples of teams blowing themselves completely up and then becoming legitimate World Series contenders by building from within, and the only one I can come up with, needed a decade of being absolutely horrendous to do it.


I must have missed where I'm advocating the Sox build their team only from within. In fact I just advocated the Red Sox/Yankees/Rangers model a page or so ago. Something I've spoken on in the past as well.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 12:14 PM
I must have missed where I'm advocating the Sox build their team only from within. In fact I just advocated the Red Sox/Yankees/Rangers model a page or so ago. Something I've spoken on in the past as well.

OK, but isn't that what the Sox are basically doing now, just with ****tier results? Look at our everyday lineup, 2 or 3 homegrown guys (Beckham, Morel, and Alexei if you count that), 2 guys acquired when they were still pretty much prospects (Quentin, Konerko), and 4 aquired as veterans (Pierre, Pierzynski, Rios, Dunn).

Tragg
09-28-2011, 12:18 PM
Rebuilding, without steady pitching, results in losing 90+ games.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 12:21 PM
OK, but isn't that what the Sox are basically doing now, just with ****tier results? Look at our everyday lineup, 2 or 3 homegrown guys (Beckham, Morel, and Alexei if you count that), 2 guys acquired when they were still pretty much prospects (Quentin, Konerko), and 4 aquired as veterans (Pierre, Pierzynski, Rios, Dunn).

It is what the Sox are doing essentially, but with an extra ****ty farm system and a large inability to develop players. I'm hoping the Sox are able to alleviate some of those concerns by building up the farm a bit. More potential prospects to fill vacancies, more prospects available to trade, all on top of the ability to throw some money at free agents as well. It's still uncertain if such a plan would be successful and able to be maintained (especially if Kenny is still not allowed to spend money in the draft during a rebuild), but it seems to me that there aren't many other options at this point in time.

Moses_Scurry
09-28-2011, 12:26 PM
A few points, and some of this may be repetition:

I am OK with Kenny presiding over a rebuild, under some conditions. He must resist the impulse for the big splash/quick fix. While a big splash can definitely be a great thing for a team on the rise, Kenny has shown time again that for some reason, he can't do it. His attempts at "the big splash" have netted the Sox David Wells, Todd Richie, Adam Dunn, Alex Rios, Jake Peavy, Manny, Ken Griffey Jr, Nick Swisher, Javier Vazquez, and Edwin Jackson. Of that group, the best performer was Javier Vazquez, and he was run out of town on a rail. JR has to force Kenny's hand to stick with the rebuilding plan. His big splashes are largely the reason that the farm system is where it is.

I don't see any problem with Kenny's ability to identify and accumulate young talent. And he has a pretty decent record of finding diamonds in the rough. His problem is that he sees stars in his eyes and can't resist trying to make "the big splash". He can't resist the urge to spend the talent he has accumulated. He had to be doing something right in order to have enough talent to make all of the big moves he made.

In a way, he is like me in fantasy football. I've always been more obsessed with past results than future potential. I took Chris Johnson with the 5th pick this year. I was blinded by his 2000 yard season. I should have taken LeSean McCoy. Kenny is the same way. He seems to take the big names with no regard to injuries or recent slides in performance. He could have signed Carlos Pena for 1/4 of the money and years that Dunn got. That would have changed this season and the future outlook tremendously, but he was blinded by Dunn's homeruns. I know hindsight is 20/20 and nobody here was clamoring for Pena, but we're not paid to be right or punished for being wrong. When it comes to "the big splash" Kenny is an 0-fer in my opinion, but he has been good at his reclamation projects.

seventyseven
09-28-2011, 12:26 PM
I have no problem with a rebuild. I just have no faith that KW will do it right.

seventyseven
09-28-2011, 12:31 PM
In a way, he is like me in fantasy football. I've always been more obsessed with past results than future potential. I took Chris Johnson with the 5th pick this year. I was blinded by his 2000 yard season. I should have taken LeSean McCoy. Kenny is the same way. He seems to take the big names with no regard to injuries or recent slides in performance. He could have signed Carlos Pena for 1/4 of the money and years that Dunn got. That would have changed this season and the future outlook tremendously, but he was blinded by Dunn's homeruns. I know hindsight is 20/20 and nobody here was clamoring for Pena, but we're not paid to be right or punished for being wrong. When it comes to "the big splash" Kenny is an 0-fer in my opinion, but he has been good at his reclamation projects.

Had me until here. There was nothing to suggest that Dunn (at age 31) would not put up better numbers than .260/38/103 (his 2010 stats) in a smaller park and with better protection in the lineup. Period.

blandman
09-28-2011, 12:45 PM
Gets what? Getting your teeth drilled sucks, but it has a pay-off, of having healthier teeth. There are almost no examples of teams blowing themselves completely up and then becoming legitimate World Series contenders by building from within, and the only one I can come up with, needed a decade of being absolutely horrendous to do it.

What?

I'll agree it's less likely TODAY because big markets like New York, Philly, Boston and LA have built up revenue streams so high others have trouble competing no matter what they do. But even in the modern era, the current Rays and the 90's Indian teams are prime examples of how incredible the payoff can be doing this.

russ99
09-28-2011, 12:46 PM
I was going to save this for my annual next year's payroll thread, but this seems an opportune time.

This may be a good time for the Sox to do at least a partial rebuild, as they have the largest concentration of inexpensive talent in the majors since before 2004.

Next year's expected payroll fits in groups:

1) Free agents: (this year's salaries)
Buehrle (14M)
Pierre (8.5M)
Frasor ($3.5M, option declined)
Vizquel ($1.75M)
Castro ($1.2M)

2) Bloated contracts:
Peavy - $17M
Rios - $12.5M
Dunn - $14M

3) Core players
Konerko - $12M
Floyd - $7M
A.J. - $6M (edit)
Thornton - $5.5M
Ramirez - $5M
Crain - $4.5M
Ohman - $2.5M

6) Arb eligibles
Danks - $7.5M (est)
Quentin - $6.5M (est)
Pena - $1.75M (est)

5) Kids
Viciedo - $3.25M
Humber - $.75M
Beckham - $.75M (Could he hit super-2 status for his first arb this year?)
Santos - $.5M
Lillibridge - $.5M
Sale - $.5M
Morel - $.5M
De Aza - $.5M
Flowers - $.5M
Stewart - $.5M

So I'd expect all of the FA's (except maybe Buehrle?) and half the core players to go. Then if they can get rid of one bloated contract, maybe they can keep all the Arb eligibles, or deal one if the return gives them another young MLB-ready piece.

Ramirez is an interesting case. He's making $2.75 this year, goes up to $5M next year, $7M in 2013, and $9.5M in 2015. I'd hate to see him traded, but they may think Escobar is a good enough replacement, and Alexei would bring back a nice return. So he's 50-50 for next year.

That would cut the payroll down to below $100M territory, and we'd field a younger, rebuilding team without the need for 2-3 years of minor league re-development required.

Moses_Scurry
09-28-2011, 12:48 PM
Had me until here. There was nothing to suggest that Dunn (at age 31) would not put up better numbers than .260/38/103 (his 2010 stats) in a smaller park and with better protection in the lineup. Period.

There was also no reason to believe that David Wells wouldn't put up his 2000 and previous stats. There was also no reason to believe that Nick Swisher couldn't put up his previous stats. Many of Kenny's moves have looked great the day he made them. That is why we have so many posts saying things like "I don't recall you bitching about the move when it happened". Very few people complained about Dunn (I know, Tdog), Wells, Peavy, Griffey, Swisher (I know, Munch), or Vazquez when they happened. People complained about Manny, but it was because they didn't like him, not because they thought he would suck.

At some point, when it comes to the GM, you can't play the "nobody could have seen him falling off the cliff" card. Sure it happens from time to time, but Kenny has a strong record of it happening with him. It might not be all his fault, as in some cases (Wells, Swisher, Vazquez) the player seems to return to their former selves the first year with a new team after the Sox. Maybe it's something in the clubhouse water.

DSpivack
09-28-2011, 12:52 PM
There was also no reason to believe that David Wells wouldn't put up his 2000 and previous stats. There was also no reason to believe that Nick Swisher couldn't put up his previous stats. Many of Kenny's moves have looked great the day he made them. That is why we have so many posts saying things like "I don't recall you bitching about the move when it happened". Very few people complained about Dunn (I know, Tdog), Wells, Peavy, Griffey, Swisher (I know, Munch), or Vazquez when they happened. People complained about Manny, but it was because they didn't like him, not because they thought he would suck.

At some point, when it comes to the GM, you can't play the "nobody could have seen him falling off the cliff" card. Sure it happens from time to time, but Kenny has a strong record of it happening with him. It might not be all his fault, as in some cases (Wells, Swisher, Vazquez) the player seems to return to their former selves the first year with a new team after the Sox. Maybe it's something in the clubhouse water.

I'd add Bartolo Colon to that. He wasn't great with the Sox, then left and won the Cy Young in Los Angeles of Anaheim.

PaleHoser
09-28-2011, 12:52 PM
I don't doubt some players, particularly those that are arbitration eligible, will be moved this off-season.

I think the real key is whoever is hired as the new manager and who gets brought in as coaches. A different voice and different approach is needed. Underperforming veterans may return to career norms, help the club and be productive enough to be moved.

The Diamondbacks lost 97 games last year. They also play in a crap division, but a change in leadership (Kirk Gibson) and some shrewd trades (Dan Haren, Edwin Jackson) turned them around quickly.

In Kenny I Trust...

sullythered
09-28-2011, 12:52 PM
What?

I'll agree it's less likely TODAY because big markets like New York, Philly, Boston and LA have built up revenue streams so high others have trouble competing no matter what they do. But even in the modern era, the current Rays and the 90's Indian teams are prime examples of how incredible the payoff can be doing this.
So the Rays are the only real modern example you have, and it took them, literally, 10 consecutive seasons of 90+ losses to get good.

DSpivack
09-28-2011, 01:10 PM
So the Rays are the only real modern example you have, and it took them, literally, 10 consecutive seasons of 90+ losses to get good.

Why not the 2003 Marlins?

shes
09-28-2011, 01:11 PM
I found it interesting that Williams basically offered to fire himself.

I'm not sure I like the idea of him continuing as GM if he doesn't want the job, which it seems he doesn't if he's tried to quit 5 times.

blandman
09-28-2011, 01:13 PM
So the Rays are the only real modern example you have, and it took them, literally, 10 consecutive seasons of 90+ losses to get good.

It does with the wrong GM, yes. Friedman took over in 2004 and had them in the World Series in 2007.

Through all of baseball history, this is exactly how teams became elite. Modern baseball has given other means, but only for a few teams.

Nellie_Fox
09-28-2011, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure I like the idea of him continuing as GM if he doesn't want the job, which it seems he doesn't if he's tried to quit 5 times.
If I understand it correctly, he didn't "try to quit." If he wanted to quit, he'd have quit. Out of loyalty to JR, who has been very good to KW, he OFFERED to resign to save JR the difficulty of firing him. Those are very different things.

GoSox2K3
09-28-2011, 01:21 PM
Maybe, but this team definitely had the talent to win this ****ty division the last few years, and has failed miserably.

Please stop making Russ feel sickened!!!

doublem23
09-28-2011, 01:25 PM
If I understand it correctly, he didn't "try to quit." If he wanted to quit, he'd have quit. Out of loyalty to JR, who has been very good to KW, he OFFERED to resign to save JR the difficulty of firing him. Those are very different things.

Right, it's not like KW is shackled to his desk, he just doesn't want to put JR in a situation where has has to choose between his business interests in the White Sox and his personal feelings for KW. It's actually very classy, especially in the world of pro sports which is full of A-personality meatheads who don't understand the term empathy.

WhiteSox5187
09-28-2011, 01:25 PM
If we are going to totally rebuild, I think you should bring in someone new as Kenny is the guy who has completely gutted the farm system and to be honest even before he gutted it there wasn't a whole lot in there. If the plan is to keep him around but on a very short leash for 2012 then he can't really rebuild, he has to put together a team that is competitive for now (that team would really be more or less relying on Dunn and Rios to rebound and hope that Peavy can stay healthy and effective). The whole rebuilding on the fly thing CAN be done but I don't think Kenny is the guy to do it. He certainly has done a lousy job of it the past few years.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 01:27 PM
If we are going to totally rebuild, I think you should bring in someone new as Kenny is the guy who has completely gutted the farm system and to be honest even before he gutted it there wasn't a whole lot in there.

Yeah except that when KW was in charge of the farm system (1995-2000, prior to his promotion as GM), we had the best farm system in baseball.

Kenny's focus has been solely on the White Sox for almost all of his tenure as GM, for sure, but don't talk about the guy like he doesn't have a sterling record of minor league management when that's his focus.

WhiteSox5187
09-28-2011, 01:29 PM
Yeah except that when KW was in charge of the farm system (1995-2000, prior to his promotion as GM), we had the best farm system in baseball.

Kenny's focus has been solely on the White Sox for almost all of his tenure as GM, for sure, but don't talk about the guy like he doesn't have a sterling record of minor league management when that's his focus.

A part of a GM's job IS to focus on the minors. His job isn't JUST the major league club it's the whole White Sox system, the current state of the minors reflects directly on him. Also when we had that farm system that was so good under Kenny we were in a complete rebuild mode.

shes
09-28-2011, 01:35 PM
If I understand it correctly, he didn't "try to quit." If he wanted to quit, he'd have quit. Out of loyalty to JR, who has been very good to KW, he OFFERED to resign to save JR the difficulty of firing him. Those are very different things.

I understand, but if a person "offers to resign" from his job a handful of times, wouldn't it be fair to say that he's not exactly heartbroken at the prospect of losing that job?

asindc
09-28-2011, 01:36 PM
If I understand it correctly, he didn't "try to quit." If he wanted to quit, he'd have quit. Out of loyalty to JR, who has been very good to KW, he OFFERED to resign to save JR the difficulty of firing him. Those are very different things.

No they're not! He quit, repeatedly dammit, but JR wouldn't let him.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 01:39 PM
A part of a GM's job IS to focus on the minors. His job isn't JUST the major league club it's the whole White Sox system, the current state of the minors reflects directly on him. Also when we had that farm system that was so good under Kenny we were in a complete rebuild mode.

You're joking, right? Did you forget about that GIGANTIC contract we doled out to Albert Belle right in the middle of that timeframe? That's basically the antithesis of the rebuilding people seem to be clammoring for.

asindc
09-28-2011, 01:39 PM
I understand, but if a person "offers to resign" from his job a handful of times, wouldn't it be fair to say that he's not exactly heartbroken at the prospect of losing that job?

Right, it's not like KW is shackled to his desk, he just doesn't want to put JR in a situation where has has to choose between his business interests in the White Sox and his personal feelings for KW. It's actually very classy, especially in the world of pro sports which is full of A-personality meatheads who don't understand the term empathy.

Yep.

g0g0
09-28-2011, 01:43 PM
See, that's not true at all. Look at the 8 teams that are going to the postseason this year. If the Red Sox get in, then you have all 8 that were built in some fashion between good drafting, good free agent pickups, good trades, etc. None of them started with nothing and built their teams from the ground up internally. It just really does not happen that often in baseball.

But that's the thing. The Sox tried doing this the past few years and look where it got them. Yes Dunn and others didn't produce, but you still have the results. Who would you build around on this team? Seems Beckham is always talked about, but even he is having issues. I don't see anyone who the Sox truly can't live without or do better than. Time to start over.

Nellie_Fox
09-28-2011, 01:44 PM
I understand, but if a person "offers to resign" from his job a handful of times, wouldn't it be fair to say that he's not exactly heartbroken at the prospect of losing that job?No, it wouldn't be fair to say that. I already explained why. Believe what you want.

SoxSpeed22
09-28-2011, 01:46 PM
You want your teeth drilled for five years?I would think it's more like a painful medical procedure, where it will improve your life, but the first two years after said procedure would be pretty painful.
Regardless, I don't think KW is the right guy for a rebuild. I've said earlier that I think he would get too aggressive at the wrong time. Farm system improvements are going to depend on Jerry's willingness to invest more in better scouting, international signings (**** you Dave Wilder) and forking over money to more talented draft picks, because if those two things don't happen, we could end up like Houston with no light at the end. It might also depend on if there are different coaches in the farm system.

WhiteSox5187
09-28-2011, 01:49 PM
You're joking, right? Did you forget about that GIGANTIC contract we doled out to Albert Belle right in the middle of that timeframe? That's basically the antithesis of the rebuilding people seem to be clammoring for.

Did you forget about the White Flag Trade that we made a couple of months after signing Belle to that contract? That is pretty much the DEFINITION of rebuilding.

shes
09-28-2011, 01:49 PM
I would think it's more like a painful medical procedure, where it will improve your life, but the first two years after said procedure would be pretty painful.
Regardless, I don't think KW is the right guy for a rebuild. I've said earlier that I think he would get too aggressive at the wrong time. Farm system improvements are going to depend on Jerry's willingness to invest more in better scouting, international signings (**** you Dave Wilder) and forking over money to more talented draft picks, because if those two things don't happen, we could end up like Houston with no light at the end. It might also depend on if there are different coaches in the farm system.

I agree, Kenny's a good guy to have for a perennial contender with financial flexibility, but I think if we're rebuilding, cleaning house (sad is it would be to witness) would be most effective.

shes
09-28-2011, 01:58 PM
No, it wouldn't be fair to say that. I already explained why. Believe what you want.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I have been a supporter of Kenny's during his tenure, but I really don't think it's unfair to suggest that there have been several instances where it's been pretty apparent that he was unhappy to be the White Sox GM and could take the job or leave it. Perhaps he is more transparent with his emotions publicly than he should be and that exacerbates the issue. How much any of this has to do with his feuding with Ozzie, I don't know -- maybe with the latter gone next year things will improve.

Noneck
09-28-2011, 01:58 PM
Next year's expected payroll fits in groups:

1) Free agents: (this year's salaries)
Buehrle (14M)
Pierre (8.5M)
Frasor ($3.5M, option declined)
Vizquel ($1.75M)
Castro ($1.2M)

2) Bloated contracts:
Peavy - $17M
Rios - $12.5M
Dunn - $14M

3) Core players
Konerko - $12M
Floyd - $7M
Crain - $4.5M
Thornton - $5.5M
Ramirez - $5M
A.J. - $2M
Ohman - $2.5M

6) Arb eligibles
Danks - $7.5M (est)
Quentin - $6.5M (est)
Pena - $1.75M (est)

5) Kids
Viciedo - $3.25M
Humber - $.75M
Beckham - $.75M (Could he hit super-2 status for his first arb this year?)
Santos - $.5M
Lillibridge - $.5M
Sale - $.5M
Morel - $.5M
De Aza - $.5M
Flowers - $.5M
Stewart - $.5M



Nice work as usually on this but I believe AJ should be at 6M for 2012.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 02:09 PM
Did you forget about the White Flag Trade that we made a couple of months after signing Belle to that contract? That is pretty much the DEFINITION of rebuilding.

OK, so at best we're stuck in some middle ground, but the point remains it would be incorrect to suggest KW's really, really good record of farm system development was just him being the lucky duck who just happened to be there while the Sox "rebuilt" because clearly they were not, and even if your point stands, he was still very successful at building the farm system. Just because a team is trying to go young, doesn't mean it's automatically successful.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 02:10 PM
I would think it's more like a painful medical procedure, where it will improve your life, but the first two years after said procedure would be pretty painful.

Two years? Yeah right. That doesn't even outlive the Rios and Dunn contracts.

SoxSpeed22
09-28-2011, 02:12 PM
Did you forget about the White Flag Trade that we made a couple of months after signing Belle to that contract? That is pretty much the DEFINITION of rebuilding.I always thought that Belle contract was to get back at the other owners who gave in during the 1994 strike.

WhiteSox5187
09-28-2011, 02:24 PM
OK, so at best we're stuck in some middle ground, but the point remains it would be incorrect to suggest KW's really, really good record of farm system development was just him being the lucky duck who just happened to be there while the Sox "rebuilt" because clearly they were not, and even if your point stands, he was still very successful at building the farm system. Just because a team is trying to go young, doesn't mean it's automatically successful.

Oh I am not trying to suggest that he was a lucky duck or anything like that when he was building the farm system as farm director. My point is that while he was a good farm director the farm has undoubtedly deteriorated under him while he has been GM and part of his duties as GM includes maintaining the farm system. The drafts with him as GM have been abysmal while the drafts with him as a farm director were okay.

russ99
09-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Nice work as usually on this but I believe AJ should be at 6M for 2012.

Yes, that's right. He's up for $6M next year, but as I recall that was backloaded to fit him into this year's payroll.

Milw
09-28-2011, 02:30 PM
Gets what? Getting your teeth drilled sucks, but it has a pay-off, of having healthier teeth. There are almost no examples of teams blowing themselves completely up and then becoming legitimate World Series contenders by building from within, and the only one I can come up with, needed a decade of being absolutely horrendous to do it.
I'm advocating a rebuild of the minor league system that involves two or three years of being crappy at the major league level, and then once we have a core of 4-6 very good, inexpensive young players, to surround them with high-priced veterans. This doesn't have to be built 100% from within, but we need a foundation first.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 02:43 PM
I'm advocating a rebuild of the minor league system that involves two or three years of being crappy at the major league level, and then once we have a core of 4-6 very good, inexpensive young players, to surround them with high-priced veterans. This doesn't have to be built 100% from within, but we need a foundation first.

There is just no way these numbers are realistic. There's no possible way any team can turn around 4-6 very good young players in 2-3 years. Even the best farm systems don't produce talent like that.

I understand what people are saying, that they want the Sox to look into rebuilding the farm system, but you're not going to win at the Major League level that way. It just does not happen.

sullythered
09-28-2011, 02:44 PM
It does with the wrong GM, yes. Friedman took over in 2004 and had them in the World Series in 2007.

Through all of baseball history, this is exactly how teams became elite. Modern baseball has given other means, but only for a few teams.

And which kind of GM do we have?

doublem23
09-28-2011, 02:45 PM
It does with the wrong GM, yes. Friedman took over in 2004 and had them in the World Series in 2007.

How do we know he's just not lucky?

blandman
09-28-2011, 03:17 PM
There is just no way these numbers are realistic. There's no possible way any team can turn around 4-6 very good young players in 2-3 years. Even the best farm systems don't produce talent like that.

I understand what people are saying, that they want the Sox to look into rebuilding the farm system, but you're not going to win at the Major League level that way. It just does not happen.

Rays, Twins, Indians, Tigers, Braves, Reds, and Brewers have all done that in the division era with players netted over the course of 3 drafts. It is possible, you just need high draft picks, good scouting and development, and the willingness to spend.

blandman
09-28-2011, 03:20 PM
How do we know he's just not lucky?

As the Rays continue to produce players like Hellickson and Jennings, it's pretty obvious that's not the case. High draft picks succeeding are not luck, they're a function of willingness to spend, evaluation, and development. The "luck" part is really just draft position. But ****ty seasons/high picks are a function of rebuilding.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-28-2011, 03:25 PM
Given the state of our farm system (abysmal), I cannot trust KW to rebuild us into a contender. Hey, Tom Ricketts, I think I have someone for your team's GM vacancy.

I think we should do half-and-half. That is, to a rebuild but keep key pieces like Konerko and Buehrle in place.

This:
That is, to a rebuild but keep key pieces like Konerko and Buehrle in place.

thomas35forever
09-28-2011, 03:27 PM
Letting Buehrle would be a bitter pill to swallow. I'll just start with that.

As for everything else, I really don't think totally rebuilding is going to work. There have been several posts already saying that it rarely works and when it does, it takes a long time. Plus, the last thing this team needs is going into 2012 knowing they're going to suck because as someone pointed out, our fan base won't come out to the park if they're losing.

I said in another thread that I'm willing to give Kenny a chance to clean up his mess even if I think he should have been out the door with Ozzie, Cora, Walker, etc. At least he's taking responsibility here, something I don't think Ozzie wanted to do. That alone merits a chance.

What I would do: re-sign Buehrle, trade one of Danks/Floyd, trade Thornton, possibly trade Ohman and let the rest of our free agents walk. At least then, we would still have some competitive pieces in place while giving the younger guys a chance to play everyday. Viciedo will have to be one of those everyday players, so maybe trade Quentin too.

PalehosePlanet
09-28-2011, 03:27 PM
I have no problem with a total rebuild. What I don't want is continued half-assed "competitiveness" in a **** division. Go one way or go the other.

One way is to rebuild, what's the other? A 125 million dollar payroll? All in?

I don't think KW half-assed it at all this year. A DH-less 88 win team signs the best DH/1B type on the market and we bring back our most productive player? Why is that half-assing it? (note: 2009, I'll give you -- that was the definition of half-assing it.)

blandman
09-28-2011, 03:30 PM
One way is to rebuild, what's the other? A 125 million dollar payroll? All in?

I don't think KW half-assed it at all this year. A DH-less 88 win team signs the best DH/1B type on the market and we bring back our most productive player? Why is that half-assing it? (note: 2009, I'll give you -- that was the definition of half-assing it.)

I just keep thinking what would have happened if we didn't get outbid for Victor Martinez. He's our DH and the Tigers likely end up with Dunn...

Goose
09-28-2011, 03:37 PM
I just keep thinking what would have happened if we didn't get outbid for Victor Martinez. He's our DH and the Tigers likely end up with Dunn...

What what if Dunn prospered under a different manager other than Ozzie, and Martinez struggled? There is no way of knowing the what-ifs, so it is a mute point.

blandman
09-28-2011, 03:40 PM
What what if Dunn prospered under a different manager other than Ozzie, and Martinez struggled? There is no way of knowing the what-ifs, so it is a mute point.

You're kidding with this, right? Right?

I have a really hard time believing there are individuals who believe a manager can have so much control over an individual player that over the course of a season a .900 OPS player becomes a .300 OPS player.

Really, tell me your joking. I need to know that this was just a joke.

kittle42
09-28-2011, 03:41 PM
What what if Dunn prospered under a different manager other than Ozzie, and Martinez struggled? There is no way of knowing the what-ifs, so it is a mute point.

You're kidding with this, right? Right?

I have a really hard time believing there are individuals who believe a manager can have so much control over an individual player that over the course of a season a .900 OPS player becomes a .300 OPS player.

Really, tell me your joking. I need to know that this was just a joke.

Gotta agree with munch here. The possible single-worst season by a regular offensive player ever is going to get blamed on performance under a manager?

And what the **** is a "mute" point?

Goose
09-28-2011, 03:46 PM
Gotta agree with munch here. The possible single-worst season by a regular offensive player ever is going to get blamed on performance under a manager?

And what the **** is a "mute" point?

My point is that we dont know what caused Dunn to suck as much as he did this year. I hope he figures it out. He fell off a cliff based on his past numbers, so no one can pin point a cause. Would he have done differently in DET? I don't know. Would Martinez done as bad as Dunn in Chicago? Unlikely. But I dont know if he would have done as well as in DET.

As for a mute point, that is me shutting up for now. Of course, my commentary on that is moot.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 03:48 PM
As the Rays continue to produce players like Hellickson and Jennings, it's pretty obvious that's not the case. High draft picks succeeding are not luck, they're a function of willingness to spend, evaluation, and development. The "luck" part is really just draft position. But ****ty seasons/high picks are a function of rebuilding.

Don't forget Matt Moore. 8th round pick and just as touted as Hellickson. My god can that organization churn out top of the line pitching.

blandman
09-28-2011, 03:49 PM
Don't forget Matt Moore. 8th round pick and just as touted as Hellickson. My god can that organization churn out top of the line pitching.

Let's be them. I don't care if it takes five years. They have no fans but can compete with the Yanks and Saux.

blandman
09-28-2011, 03:50 PM
My point is that we dont know what caused Dunn to suck as much as he did this year. I hope he figures it out. He fell off a cliff based on his past numbers, so no one can pin point a cause. Would he have done differently in DET? I don't know. Would Martinez done as bad as Dunn in Chicago? Unlikely. But I dont know if he would have done as well as in DET.


I'm pretty sure you can eliminate every person on the planet outside of Adam Dunn for this one.

Jeez.

Nellie_Fox
09-28-2011, 03:57 PM
...what the **** is a "mute" point?similar to a moo point?

Lip Man 1
09-28-2011, 04:01 PM
The point of view of a cow!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iYhqmYMoDNA/SO4BCioitjI/AAAAAAAAAAM/hHyGcSaC2SA/s320/181230__joey_l.jpg

Lip

Goose
09-28-2011, 04:05 PM
The point of view of a cow!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iYhqmYMoDNA/SO4BCioitjI/AAAAAAAAAAM/hHyGcSaC2SA/s320/181230__joey_l.jpg

Lip


That's udderly inappropriate.

doublem23
09-28-2011, 04:06 PM
Let's be them. I don't care if it takes five years. They have no fans but can compete with the Yanks and Saux.

Yes and thanks to them having no fans, they're about to have their team dismantled.

DSpivack
09-28-2011, 04:06 PM
That's udderly inappropriate.

This joke will really be milked for all it's worth.

blandman
09-28-2011, 04:17 PM
Yes and thanks to them having no fans, they're about to have their team dismantled.

In any other division, they'd simply dominate. In that division, they've won titles and been to the WS. This year, they dropped players for prospects and kept on rolling.

At some point, it may need to happen. But not anytime soon. And they're the right kind of organization to get back on top.

In a lot of ways, keeping the payroll low plays into what the Rays do. Instead of resigning guys to ridiculous deals after their original contracts, they ship them off for the next class. They've got high end talent at all levels of their organization. Probably the class of the business.

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2011, 07:34 PM
This joke will really be milked for all it's worth.

And that's no bull.

SoxSpeed22
09-28-2011, 10:52 PM
And that's no bull.No beef with that.

russ99
09-29-2011, 08:16 AM
I think it's pretty easy to pinpoint what happened with Dunn.

He's not a DH.

I don't know what was a worse idea, Dunn giving up his convictions to do something he was obviously uncomfortable doing for the payday, or Kenny grasping at straws by overpaying the guy and trying to force a round peg into a square hole to fix a year-long void in the lineup that could have been fixed other ways.

Maybe there is something to the idea that Kenny signed Dunn to play 1B and the chairman intervened with bringing back Konerko...

doublem23
09-29-2011, 08:18 AM
I think it's pretty easy to pinpoint what happened with Dunn.

He's not a DH.

I don't know what was a worse idea, Dunn giving up his convictions to do something he was obviously uncomfortable doing for the payday, or Kenny grasping at straws by overpaying the guy and trying to force a round peg into a square hole to fix a year-long void in the lineup that could have been fixed other ways.

Maybe there is something to the idea that Kenny signed Dunn to play 1B and the chairman intervened with bringing back Konerko...

Oh god, please, that's as ridiculous as the people who are blaming Ozzie for Dunn's problems. You're telling me he magically forgot how to hit the ball because he didn't have to run out on the field every inning? GMAB.

While we're coming up with hairbrained ideas, I will lay the blame on his appendectomy. He's like Samson from the Bible... Only the appendix was the source of his power.

Milw
09-29-2011, 08:32 AM
I think it's pretty easy to pinpoint what happened with Dunn.

He's not a DH.

I don't know what was a worse idea, Dunn giving up his convictions to do something he was obviously uncomfortable doing for the payday, or Kenny grasping at straws by overpaying the guy and trying to force a round peg into a square hole to fix a year-long void in the lineup that could have been fixed other ways.

Maybe there is something to the idea that Kenny signed Dunn to play 1B and the chairman intervened with bringing back Konerko...
:rolleyes:

See now I think you're just messing with us.

russ99
09-29-2011, 08:43 AM
Oh god, please, that's as ridiculous as the people who are blaming Ozzie for Dunn's problems. You're telling me he magically forgot how to hit the ball because he didn't have to run out on the field every inning? GMAB.

While we're coming up with hairbrained ideas, I will lay the blame on his appendectomy. He's like Samson from the Bible... Only the appendix was the source of his power.

LOL! Samson Dunn.

Dealing with the mental struggle of having to DH that many hitters have talked about (including the Big Hurt) surely didn't help things.

Also, he was out of shape, hadn't faced many of the AL pitchers, lost bat speed and completely lost faith in his abilities.

asindc
09-29-2011, 08:44 AM
I think it's pretty easy to pinpoint what happened with Dunn.

He's not a DH.

I don't know what was a worse idea, Dunn giving up his convictions to do something he was obviously uncomfortable doing for the payday, or Kenny grasping at straws by overpaying the guy and trying to force a round peg into a square hole to fix a year-long void in the lineup that could have been fixed other ways.

Maybe there is something to the idea that Kenny signed Dunn to play 1B and the chairman intervened with bringing back Konerko...

The only convictions Dunn had with respect to DHing had everything to do with the fact that position players typically get paid more than DHs, all else being equal. Otherwise, I'm convinced that he doesn't give a **** either way. He certainly plays defense like he doesn't care.

Zisk77
09-29-2011, 08:13 PM
Oh god, please, that's as ridiculous as the people who are blaming Ozzie for Dunn's problems. You're telling me he magically forgot how to hit the ball because he didn't have to run out on the field every inning? GMAB.

While we're coming up with hairbrained ideas, I will lay the blame on his appendectomy. He's like Samson from the Bible... Only the appendix was the source of his power.

Easy Fix...Lets put it back in. An appendix redux if you will...maybe we can add an index too. I'll have another one of these :gulp:

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 02:11 PM
pgammo Peter Gammons
Ken Williams says "we're going to let the kids play," will know what they have in mid-season, young culture coming
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 02:24 PM
Lol.

pgammo Peter Gammons
Ken Williams says "we're going to let the kids play," will know what they have in mid-season, young culture coming
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

______________________________________________


ChiTribRogers Phil Rogers
What kids? RT @pgammo Ken Williams says "we're going to let the kids play," will know what they have in mid-season, young culture coming
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


jimcallisBA Jim Callis
Would help if system wasn't worst in game. @pgammo: Ken Williams: "we're going to let the kids play" . . . young culture coming #WhiteSox
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply


keithlaw keithlaw
Great. Now they need kids worth playing. RT @pgammo: Ken Williams says "we're going to let the kids play," will know what they have in...
49 seconds ago Favorite Retweet Reply


I hope everyone had this reaction to Gammons. Next year could be really ugly.

doublem23
10-03-2011, 02:26 PM
Phil Rogers and Keith Law. Well I'm convinced.

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 02:28 PM
Phil Rogers and Keith Law. Well I'm convinced.

If you need evidence by now that the Sox farm system isn't complete garbage, then you can't be helped.

doublem23
10-03-2011, 02:33 PM
If you need evidence by now that the Sox farm system isn't complete garbage, then you can't be helped.

Oh I'm sure it is, it's just that if you're quoting Moron A and Moron B, I'm not the only one in need of help. :cool:

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 02:36 PM
Oh I'm sure it is, it's just that if you're quoting Moron A and Moron B, I'm not the only one in need of help. :cool:

It was more the evidence that even the morons are quite aware of how awful the "playing the kids" idea is given the dearth of talent. Though I will admit I don't dislike Law as much as some.

DSpivack
10-03-2011, 02:37 PM
It was more the evidence that even the morons are quite aware of how awful the "playing the kids" idea is given the dearth of talent. Though I will admit I don't dislike Law as much as some.

Maybe we can even bring back "The Kids Can Play." I think I still have a plastic cup with that slogan somewhere.

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 02:41 PM
Maybe we can even bring back "The Kids Can Play." I think I still have a plastic cup with that slogan somewhere.

I'm wondering what other kids would potentially be playing next season that we didn't see regularly. Escobar, Jordan Danks and Santiago? Random pen arms?

Already have:

Morel
Beckham
Humber
Dayan
De Aza
Flowers
Stewart
Axelrod
Sale
Santos
Reed

Hitmen77
10-03-2011, 02:46 PM
Lol.

I hope everyone had this reaction to Gammons. Next year could be really ugly.

Phil Rogers and Keith Law. Well I'm convinced.

I'm no big fan of Rogers or Law, but yes "what kids?" was my reaction when I read DirtySox's Gammons post.

This isn't 1989/1990 or 1999/2000 when the Sox "let the kids play", but those kids were loaded with talent. Wow. Next year might be really ugly based on what KW is hinting.

Hitmen77
10-03-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm wondering what other kids would potentially be playing next season that we didn't see regularly. Escobar and Santiago? Random pen arms?

Already have:

Morel
Beckham
Humber
Dayan
De Aza
Flowers
Stewart
Axelrod
Sale
Santos
Reed

Possibly the players we get in exchange for Danks and Quentin? :dunno:

SoxSpeed22
10-03-2011, 02:51 PM
If they do end up trading Danks, Quentin and Thornton, they might get lucky and get something good out of it. As it stands, 65 wins next year?

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 02:52 PM
Possibly the players we get in exchange for Danks and Quentin? :dunno:

True. The AL Central offseason moves will be interesting for sure. Except the Twins I suppose.

WhiteSox5187
10-03-2011, 03:11 PM
If they do end up trading Danks, Quentin and Thornton, they might get lucky and get something good out of it. As it stands, 65 wins next year?

That's a mighty big "if", Kenny has never traded for younger talent (or if he has I can not think of it off the top of my head) and when he drafts he seems to have an infatuation with former football players who are "good athletes" and bad baseball players. I don't necessarily mind getting younger but if that is what we are going to do I don't think I want Kenny in charge of this process. He might just trade what we get for another aging veteran anyways.

harwar
10-03-2011, 04:22 PM
It could be a long couple of years coming up .. i saw KW in the trailer for the new stars series "The Boss" .. nice to have a fall back position if things don't work out on the south side

TomBradley72
10-03-2011, 04:41 PM
I'm wondering what other kids would potentially be playing next season that we didn't see regularly. Escobar, Jordan Danks and Santiago? Random pen arms?

Already have:

Morel
Beckham
Humber
Dayan
De Aza
Flowers
Stewart
Axelrod
Sale
Santos
Reed

Humber is 29, De Aza- 27, Flowers 26, Stewart turns 26 soon- they're really not "kids" just "fresh from the minors"- where do the $53M of overpaid veterans (Peavy, Dunn, Rios and AJ) play?

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 04:43 PM
Humber is 29, De Aza- 27, Flowers 26, Stewart turns 26 soon- they're really not "kids" just "fresh from the minors"- where do the $53M of overpaid veterans (Peavy, Dunn, Rios and AJ) play?

Kid is somewhat subjective. More referring to how much they've actually played at the big league level.

Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and AJ will all play. Though there are some rumblings of AJ being shopped, even with 10-5 rights.

Harry Chappas
10-03-2011, 04:47 PM
That's a mighty big "if", Kenny has never traded for younger talent (or if he has I can not think of it off the top of my head) and when he drafts he seems to have an infatuation with former football players who are "good athletes" and bad baseball players. I don't necessarily mind getting younger but if that is what we are going to do I don't think I want Kenny in charge of this process. He might just trade what we get for another aging veteran anyways.

Kenny is possibly the worst GM for a team looking to get younger. His eye for talent seems to be lacking and he has always treated the farm system as an afterthought. If there is a youth movement afoot, I really wish it was being spearheaded by someone else.

Also, as DirtySox pointed out, there isn't much left in our own system to bring up. I would imagine this youth movement would have to consist of a few of the guys already on the roster and whoever we bring in via trades. Unfortunately, Kenny won't be dealing from a position of strength so I'm not bursting with optimism that he can find a few major-league ready players with high ceilings. In hindsight, we should have been sellers at the trading deadline when we may have found a few desperate teams to deal with.

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 04:51 PM
Kenny won't be dealing from a position of strength so I'm not bursting with optimism that he can find a few major-league ready players with high ceilings. In hindsight, we should have been sellers at the trading deadline when we may have found a few desperate teams to deal with.

Agreed fully. It's also quite difficult to find major league ready prospects with high ceilings that teams are willing to trade. Those are players that teams are holding onto more and more unless they are receiving some elite talent back. The Sox aren't in a position to be acquiring blue chip ready to contribute prospects.

TheOldRoman
10-03-2011, 04:57 PM
In hindsight, we should have been sellers at the trading deadline when we may have found a few desperate teams to deal with.What exactly did you want to sell then? Konerko? The Sox were talking to several teams about Quentin, but then the Phillies got Pence, who was thought to be staying in Houston, and the Astros went for Bourn. There was far less of a market than this offseason when potentially 29 teams would be bidding on him instead of 6 or so. With Thornton, they talked to a bunch of teams, but nobody was willing to overpay. So, instead of unloading him for a bad package just to show that they were selling (despite being within striking distance of the division at the time), they decided to hold on to him until the offseason and likely move him then. I see nothing wrong with holding on to either guy.

slavko
10-03-2011, 05:13 PM
That's a mighty big "if", Kenny has never traded for younger talent (or if he has I can not think of it off the top of my head) and when he drafts he seems to have an infatuation with former football players who are "good athletes" and bad baseball players. I don't necessarily mind getting younger but if that is what we are going to do I don't think I want Kenny in charge of this process. He might just trade what we get for another aging veteran anyways.

He got Danks, Floyd and er, um, uh, all those other guys.

wassagstdu
10-03-2011, 05:35 PM
I don't really see that the Sox have any alternative to liquidating their assets. They need to accomplish two things, (1) off-load the crushing contracts of Dunn and Rios; and (2) rebuild the farm system. The only way I can see to accomplish the first is to package deal a Konerko with a Rios, and a Danks/Floyd/Quentin/Ramirez with a Dunn. And/or, they could trade all of those pieces for three times as many prospects and basically burn the Rios and Dunn contracts while the prospects mature and sort. Otherwise, we can wait until the Dunn and Rios contracts clear and then start the rebuild.

Either way, we are several years behind the Royals on the same road. Am I missing something?

WhiteSox5187
10-03-2011, 05:46 PM
He got Danks, Floyd and er, um, uh, all those other guys.

You're right, he did get Danks and Masset and that was a good trade but then he turned around and dealt Masset for the ancient Griffey.

Lip Man 1
10-03-2011, 06:21 PM
Masset is nothing to write home about and if nothing else Griffey justified the deal when he threw out the Twin at the plate in the blackout game.

Lip

mcp5185
10-03-2011, 06:31 PM
I don't really see that the Sox have any alternative to liquidating their assets. They need to accomplish two things, (1) off-load the crushing contracts of Dunn and Rios; and (2) rebuild the farm system. The only way I can see to accomplish the first is to package deal a Konerko with a Rios, and a Danks/Floyd/Quentin/Ramirez with a Dunn. And/or, they could trade all of those pieces for three times as many prospects and basically burn the Rios and Dunn contracts while the prospects mature and sort. Otherwise, we can wait until the Dunn and Rios contracts clear and then start the rebuild.

Either way, we are several years behind the Royals on the same road. Am I missing something?

I don't think there is any possible way to accomplish both ideas 1 and 2. If we use Konerko and Danks/Floyd/Quentin to get rid of the Dunn and Rios contracts, we will get salary relief but no viable talent back in return. We would also lose our best trade chips, and have very little left to trade for prospects to add to our already bad farm system. This would only work if KW turned around and used some of the 50+ million in savings we would get to bring in some free agents.

Also I'm not quite sure why we would have to wait until Rios and Dunn's contracts clear to start a rebuild. With Buehrle and a few other contracts coming off the book this offseason, and Peavy, Quentin, Danks, Floyd, AJ and Thornton becoming free agents soon we could rebuild with Rios and Dunn under contract. Especially if we traded Konerko for prospects, we would only have 30-35 million tied up in Rios and Quentin.

Personally I'd keep Dunn around and just hope this year was a fluke, and he gets back to his consistent self next year. Even a small drop off from his pre-2011 numbers would be a huge improvement. Trading him now could just end up like the Swisher to NYY trade. I don't wanna give someone Quentin/Floyd/Danks/Ramirez plus Adam Dunn and get nothing but salary relief in return.

A. Cavatica
10-03-2011, 06:34 PM
Masset is nothing to write home about and if nothing else Griffey justified the deal when he threw out the Twin at the plate in the blackout game.

Lip

If Griffey hadn't sucked away at-bats from more productive hitters, the blackout game might not have been necessary.

TheOldRoman
10-03-2011, 06:37 PM
If Griffey hadn't sucked away at-bats from more productive hitters, the blackout game might not have been necessary.And those more productive players were...?

WhiteSox5187
10-03-2011, 06:41 PM
Masset is nothing to write home about and if nothing else Griffey justified the deal when he threw out the Twin at the plate in the blackout game.

Lip

He's had a couple of good years out of the Reds pen and has a good arm. Kenny's move obviously worked out but it does demonstrate how he likes to take young guys and turn them around for veterans.

russ99
10-03-2011, 07:11 PM
I don't really see that the Sox have any alternative to liquidating their assets. They need to accomplish two things, (1) off-load the crushing contracts of Dunn and Rios; and (2) rebuild the farm system. The only way I can see to accomplish the first is to package deal a Konerko with a Rios, and a Danks/Floyd/Quentin/Ramirez with a Dunn. And/or, they could trade all of those pieces for three times as many prospects and basically burn the Rios and Dunn contracts while the prospects mature and sort. Otherwise, we can wait until the Dunn and Rios contracts clear and then start the rebuild.

Either way, we are several years behind the Royals on the same road. Am I missing something?

The Royals will never have the resources that the Sox currently have, so I doubt a complete gut rehab, akin to what the Astros are 2 years into is necessary.

I also don't think teams will go for package deals so the Sox can get rid of Dunn and Rios. The Jackson + Teahen deal worked because Jackson was a FA at the end of this year.

Dunn and Rios have 3 expensive years left, and I don't see anyone wanting Danks, Floyd, Quentin or Ramirez's escalating contracts along with one of them.

Our best shot is either a bad contract for bad contract deal, or the Sox sending a boatload of cash. I don't see Jerry going for option B...

Noneck
10-03-2011, 07:16 PM
He's had a couple of good years out of the Reds pen and has a good arm. Kenny's move obviously worked out but it does demonstrate how he likes to take young guys and turn them around for veterans.

I think junior was a old hired gun to put the Sox over the hump. That is the time of year when a team over pays for that. But more importantly I am sure Junior sold seats to even out that score.

KMcMahon817
10-03-2011, 07:19 PM
Possibly the players we get in exchange for Danks and Quentin? :dunno:

Right, but there really aren't even that many spots to play new players. I assume Quentin will be dealt. I honestly don't see the SOX dealing Danks. His value is likely at its lowest it has been since 2008. He only has one year left on his contract and will be coming off an underwhelming season. I think the SOX will show a holding pattern this off-season and hope a new manager can spark some fire under Dunn and Rios.

A lineup of:

De Aza CF 1M (1st year arb*)
Ramirez SS 5M
Konerko 1B 12M
Dunn DH 14M
Viciedo LF 2.5M
AJ C 6M
Rios RF 12M
Morel 3B 485K
Beckham 2B 500K
53.485M

Danks 7.5M (Last year arb*)
Floyd 7M
Peavy 17M
Sale 485K
Humber 1.5M (Arb eligible*)

Santos 1M
Thornton 5.5M
Crain 4.5M
Reed 425K
Stewart 485K
Middle Relief (Assuming Stewart will be the long guy out of the pen) 500K
Ohman 2.5M
48.395M

Flowers 425K
Lillibridge 1M (1st year arb*)
Outfielder/pinch runner (Danks, or sign someone for cheap) 500K
Martinez 425K
2.35M

Total Expected Payroll: $104.23M*
*Danks, De Aza, Humber and Lillibridge are eligible for arbitration. Their salaries are estimated.

That is a solid $23M slash in payroll and I don't necessarily think that team is a guarantee to lose 90-100 games as some people have said in this thread. I see that team as contender under the assumption that Dunn, Rios and Peavy will at least rebound a bit next season. Dunn: .235/30/80 Rios: .275/18/70 Peavy: 14-10, 3.80 ERA, 29 starts.

None of those estimates are out of this world, and I honestly see them as a good possibility. I would not be surprised to see the SOX shop Thornton this off-season in an effort to replenish the farm system along with the return from Quentin. As Dirty mentioned, it is more likely the SOX will receive lower-level prospects in a Quentin deal rather than a blue chip prospect that will make an impact in 2012.

The SOX could be interesting to watch in 2012. I would like to see what we can get from De Aza and Viciedo in full time roles. Will Lillibridge be able to continue his impressive improvement at the plate and in the field with more at bats in 2012? We known Beckham and Morel can throw leather in the infield, but will Morel show the power with the bat he showcased in September? I don't know what to think of Gordon, but I am willing to give him 2012 to figure it out with that bat because his defense is Gold Glove caliber.

I was obviously disappointed that the SOX never got on the roll some of expected them to this season, but I don't think it is forgone conclusion that 2012 will be a throw away season. A new manager, please Dave Martinez, and new year for the under-performers may be a good combination...I wish it would start in two weeks.

slavko
10-03-2011, 07:23 PM
If Griffey hadn't sucked away at-bats from more productive hitters, the blackout game might not have been necessary.

Griffey hit a soft .260 and was a statue in CF. Wise and Anderson, mediocre as they were, would have done as well overall. And made the throw to nail the Twin from medium short CF. Griffey's contributions were not worth trading a useful pitcher.

Vernam
10-03-2011, 07:24 PM
What exactly did you want to sell then? Konerko? The Sox were talking to several teams about Quentin, but then the Phillies got Pence, who was thought to be staying in Houston, and the Astros went for Bourn. There was far less of a market than this offseason when potentially 29 teams would be bidding on him instead of 6 or so. With Thornton, they talked to a bunch of teams, but nobody was willing to overpay. So, instead of unloading him for a bad package just to show that they were selling (despite being within striking distance of the division at the time), they decided to hold on to him until the offseason and likely move him then. I see nothing wrong with holding on to either guy.

I shudder to think what the last two months of the 2011 season would've looked like around here if Kenny had dumped Quentin and others at the trade deadline. It certainly would've changed the whole dynamic of Ozzie's departure, especially if Ozzie had been smart enough to hold his tongue instead of lobbying for a contract extension in late August. (Big if, I know.)

If we don't have a realistic chance of contending in 2012, it's obviously better to get whatever prospects we can for whatever live bodies we have, even if it means eating a major part of existing contracts. Otherwise you're paying a guy to take up roster space when you could be giving innings to a young player. Granted, that would probably have to be a young player who currently belongs to another team -- all the more reason to get creative and bundle Quentin with whoever would bring a decent return.

Vernam

Lip Man 1
10-03-2011, 08:15 PM
A 5.63 ERA in three years in the A.L. ERA's of 7.09 and 4.63 in his two years (59 games) with the Sox.

With all due respect Slavko, that's the kind of "useful" pitcher the Sox don't need. Reminds me of Boone Logan.

I'm not shedding any tears over the fact that Nick Massett is no longer on the Sox roster even though Griffey wasn't around for that long.

Lip

doublem23
10-03-2011, 08:28 PM
As long as they play hard and are mildly interesting to watch, 2012 will be a step in the right direction.

Frater Perdurabo
10-03-2011, 08:38 PM
Maybe I'm drinking too much Kool-aid, but I think the Sox can be right back in contention next year just based on "progression to the mean" by Rios and Dunn, good health from Peavy, and some advancement by Beckham and Morel.

soxinem1
10-03-2011, 08:51 PM
What if JR does not want to spend anymore on the draft, the farm, or scouting than he does now?

http://www.joesportsfan.com/jsfpics/cards/Paris.jpg

'Then count on a lot of guys like me wearing a White Sox uniform over the next 2-3 seasons'.

DumpJerry
10-03-2011, 08:51 PM
So, Kenny is saying that next year, the kids are all in?:tongue:

DirtySox
10-03-2011, 08:59 PM
So, Kenny is saying that next year, the kids are all in?:tongue:

Quick, e-mail Brooks!

DSpivack
10-03-2011, 09:03 PM
Maybe I'm drinking too much Kool-aid, but I think the Sox can be right back in contention next year just based on "progression to the mean" by Rios and Dunn, good health from Peavy, and some advancement by Beckham and Morel.

He had a good September, sure, but I'm just not a believer in Morel. Here's hoping I'm wrong.

Beckham is the bigger deal, to me, anyway. His rookie year people were talking about him as if he was the next great thing, a franchise cornerstone. He looks like a huge bust at this point, one of the biggest in franchise history. Here's hoping he turns things around.

soxinem1
10-03-2011, 09:13 PM
Kenny is possibly the worst GM for a team looking to get younger. His eye for talent seems to be lacking and he has always treated the farm system as an afterthought. If there is a youth movement afoot, I really wish it was being spearheaded by someone else.

Also, as DirtySox pointed out, there isn't much left in our own system to bring up. I would imagine this youth movement would have to consist of a few of the guys already on the roster and whoever we bring in via trades. Unfortunately, Kenny won't be dealing from a position of strength so I'm not bursting with optimism that he can find a few major-league ready players with high ceilings. In hindsight, we should have been sellers at the trading deadline when we may have found a few desperate teams to deal with.

A full-fledged youth movement does not mean that the roster is dismantled over the span of a couple months or even an off-season. It could take a year or longer when you have contracts like Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Konerko on your roster.

If this is true, I would not be surprised to see Konerko being shopped this winter, as he would be at his peak value. He has a reasonable contract for his numbers the past two years. And sure he has veto rights on a trade, but PK does not want to stick around for a major revamp at this stage of his career, as he was part of the last such major revamp of this team. Do you think he would have a problem going to MIL if Fielder leaves? I'll bet they would go after him in a heartbeat.

Then if Peavy, Rios, and Dunn start off strong, barring the team playing real strong, bet on them being jettisoned ASAP. Peavy has already stated he wants nothing to do with a rebuild, and Dunn might be motivated to move on to a contender as well.

You can't un**** a roster overnight. It took several years to assemble this team, so you can't expect it to be turned over by Spring Training.

Saying that, I believe Quentin, Floyd, Castro, Buehrle, Pierre, and Thornton have played their last games with the White Sox, while Ohman, Beckham, and Ramirez will at least be shopped. If someone wants one of them, Rios or another bad contract might be part of a deal.

Unless someone knocks off KW's socks, Danks will start 2012 with the team, look to rebound expecting a big FA payday, then be dealt by July.

By then, AJ could be sent packing if Flowers starts getting more time than a platoon mate or backup.

That would mean we could be still talking rebuild a year from now.

White Sox fans, are you ready to endure the first major rebuild of the team since 1997?

mcp5185
10-03-2011, 10:20 PM
A full-fledged youth movement does not mean that the roster is dismantled over the span of a couple months or even an off-season. It could take a year or longer when you have contracts like Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Konerko on your roster.

If this is true, I would not be surprised to see Konerko being shopped this winter, as he would be at his peak value. He has a reasonable contract for his numbers the past two years. And sure he has veto rights on a trade, but PK does not want to stick around for a major revamp at this stage of his career, as he was part of the last such major revamp of this team. Do you think he would have a problem going to MIL if Fielder leaves? I'll bet they would go after him in a heartbeat.

Then if Peavy, Rios, and Dunn start off strong, barring the team playing real strong, bet on them being jettisoned ASAP. Peavy has already stated he wants nothing to do with a rebuild, and Dunn might be motivated to move on to a contender as well.

You can't un**** a roster overnight. It took several years to assemble this team, so you can't expect it to be turned over by Spring Training.

Saying that, I believe Quentin, Floyd, Castro, Buehrle, Pierre, and Thornton have played their last games with the White Sox, while Ohman, Beckham, and Ramirez will at least be shopped. If someone wants one of them, Rios or another bad contract might be part of a deal.

Unless someone knocks off KW's socks, Danks will start 2012 with the team, look to rebound expecting a big FA payday, then be dealt by July.

By then, AJ could be sent packing if Flowers starts getting more time than a platoon mate or backup.

That would mean we could be still talking rebuild a year from now.

White Sox fans, are you ready to endure the first major rebuild of the team since 1997?

I don't know if Konerko would go to Milwaukee or not, but being that it is so close to Chicago, I think he would consider it. The problem with this is the fact that Milwaukee basically traded any valuable minor league players they had for Marcum and Greinke. They have a good young 3B named Taylor Green who I don't know if they'll trade, and I believe they had a pitcher who kind of came out of nowhere this year and pitched in the futures game. Other than those two guys the cupboard is pretty bare.

I don't think Rios or Dunn could be moved very easily, however I think we could maybe unload Peavy to a team like the Yankees. Behind Sabathia they don't have much, and they could certainly afford to take a chance on Peavy bouncing back.

Moses_Scurry
10-03-2011, 10:39 PM
I don't know if Konerko would go to Milwaukee or not, but being that it is so close to Chicago, I think he would consider it. The problem with this is the fact that Milwaukee basically traded any valuable minor league players they had for Marcum and Greinke. They have a good young 3B named Taylor Green who I don't know if they'll trade, and I believe they had a pitcher who kind of came out of nowhere this year and pitched in the futures game. Other than those two guys the cupboard is pretty bare.

I don't think Rios or Dunn could be moved very easily, however I think we could maybe unload Peavy to a team like the Yankees. Behind Sabathia they don't have much, and they could certainly afford to take a chance on Peavy bouncing back.

I would think the Bosox could be a possible destination for Peavy as well. cJ Wilson will be the top prize, but I could see the Yanks or Saux going for Peavy either in addition to Wilson or as a consolation prize.

Noneck
10-03-2011, 10:49 PM
Maybe I'm drinking too much Kool-aid, but I think the Sox can be right back in contention next year just based on "progression to the mean" by Rios and Dunn, good health from Peavy, and some advancement by Beckham and Morel.

That is one tough sell to re-up season ticket holders and sell advanced tics. Seems the same as a rebuild.

SoxSpeed22
10-03-2011, 11:31 PM
A full-fledged youth movement does not mean that the roster is dismantled over the span of a couple months or even an off-season. It could take a year or longer when you have contracts like Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Konerko on your roster.I would prefer that the Sox take their time with this. Rushing the process would probably make things worse. It took the Rangers a while to build a winner, just as long as it's within a reasonable time frame like 3-4 years.

If this is true, I would not be surprised to see Konerko being shopped this winter, as he would be at his peak value. He has a reasonable contract for his numbers the past two years. And sure he has veto rights on a trade, but PK does not want to stick around for a major revamp at this stage of his career, as he was part of the last such major revamp of this team. Do you think he would have a problem going to MIL if Fielder leaves? I'll bet they would go after him in a heartbeat.Konerko is the Sox best trading chip for whoever loses out on Fielder (I think Pujols stays in St. Louis). I think the Angels would be the best fit for him, and they have a good (not great) farm system.

Then if Peavy, Rios, and Dunn start off strong, barring the team playing real strong, bet on them being jettisoned ASAP. Peavy has already stated he wants nothing to do with a rebuild, and Dunn might be motivated to move on to a contender as well.I think the best that we can do with Peavy is wait out the year, hopefully he pitches well, then decline his option and try and get a good pick out of him. Or if he is great, trade him at the deadline, while the other team can do something, like the Brewers did with K-Rod to get out of his option. As for Rios and Dunn, I have no idea.

You can't un**** a roster overnight. It took several years to assemble this team, so you can't expect it to be turned over by Spring Training.

Saying that, I believe Quentin, Floyd, Castro, Buehrle, Pierre, and Thornton have played their last games with the White Sox, while Ohman, Beckham, and Ramirez will at least be shopped. If someone wants one of them, Rios or another bad contract might be part of a deal.

Unless someone knocks off KW's socks, Danks will start 2012 with the team, look to rebound expecting a big FA payday, then be dealt by July.

By then, AJ could be sent packing if Flowers starts getting more time than a platoon mate or backup.

That would mean we could be still talking rebuild a year from now.

White Sox fans, are you ready to endure the first major rebuild of the team since 1997?I agree with most of the players you mentioned, but I think Danks will fetch more in a trade, since he is younger, fairly durable and is a lefty who improved every year before this year. We might be able to trade AJ at the deadline, but it probably won't be for much. If I didn't think a rebuild was the best course of action, I wouldn't have wanted it, even if it means a few bad seasons. I'm only 26 anyway.

Noneck
10-03-2011, 11:56 PM
I think the best that we can do with Peavy is wait out the year, hopefully he pitches well, then decline his option and try and get a good pick out of him.

I thought Peavy has a 22M club option for 2013.

SoxSpeed22
10-04-2011, 12:00 AM
I thought Peavy has a 22M club option for 2013.Correct, it's a club option for 2013. I also just noticed that Floyd has the same type of option for the same year.

WhiffleBall
10-04-2011, 08:27 AM
Right, but there really aren't even that many spots to play new players. I assume Quentin will be dealt. I honestly don't see the SOX dealing Danks. His value is likely at its lowest it has been since 2008. He only has one year left on his contract and will be coming off an underwhelming season. I think the SOX will show a holding pattern this off-season and hope a new manager can spark some fire under Dunn and Rios.

A lineup of:

De Aza CF 1M (1st year arb*)
Ramirez SS 5M
Konerko 1B 12M
Dunn DH 14M
Viciedo LF 2.5M
AJ C 6M
Rios RF 12M
Morel 3B 485K
Beckham 2B 500K
53.485M

Danks 7.5M (Last year arb*)
Floyd 7M
Peavy 17M
Sale 485K
Humber 1.5M (Arb eligible*)

Santos 1M
Thornton 5.5M
Crain 4.5M
Reed 425K
Stewart 485K
Middle Relief (Assuming Stewart will be the long guy out of the pen) 500K
Ohman 2.5M
48.395M

Flowers 425K
Lillibridge 1M (1st year arb*)
Outfielder/pinch runner (Danks, or sign someone for cheap) 500K
Martinez 425K
2.35M

Total Expected Payroll: $104.23M*
*Danks, De Aza, Humber and Lillibridge are eligible for arbitration. Their salaries are estimated.

That is a solid $23M slash in payroll and I don't necessarily think that team is a guarantee to lose 90-100 games as some people have said in this thread. I see that team as contender under the assumption that Dunn, Rios and Peavy will at least rebound a bit next season. Dunn: .235/30/80 Rios: .275/18/70 Peavy: 14-10, 3.80 ERA, 29 starts.

None of those estimates are out of this world, and I honestly see them as a good possibility. I would not be surprised to see the SOX shop Thornton this off-season in an effort to replenish the farm system along with the return from Quentin. As Dirty mentioned, it is more likely the SOX will receive lower-level prospects in a Quentin deal rather than a blue chip prospect that will make an impact in 2012.

The SOX could be interesting to watch in 2012. I would like to see what we can get from De Aza and Viciedo in full time roles. Will Lillibridge be able to continue his impressive improvement at the plate and in the field with more at bats in 2012? We known Beckham and Morel can throw leather in the infield, but will Morel show the power with the bat he showcased in September? I don't know what to think of Gordon, but I am willing to give him 2012 to figure it out with that bat because his defense is Gold Glove caliber.

I was obviously disappointed that the SOX never got on the roll some of expected them to this season, but I don't think it is forgone conclusion that 2012 will be a throw away season. A new manager, please Dave Martinez, and new year for the under-performers may be a good combination...I wish it would start in two weeks.

Excellent post! This is probably the most realisitc lineup for 2012 based on Kenny's quote form today's trib:

"The combination of good young talent that we need to see play more and veterans that we need to see how they will bounce back, leaves us in a holding pattern until the two blend and reveal to us who we are," Williams wrote Monday in an email. "Only then can we plot an aggressive course for either more youth or additional veteran help."

If the vets improve and the "young" players do well then the team might compete. If not then there will be the huge selloff that others have desribed.

russ99
10-04-2011, 10:54 AM
Excellent post! This is probably the most realisitc lineup for 2012 based on Kenny's quote form today's trib:

"The combination of good young talent that we need to see play more and veterans that we need to see how they will bounce back, leaves us in a holding pattern until the two blend and reveal to us who we are," Williams wrote Monday in an email. "Only then can we plot an aggressive course for either more youth or additional veteran help."

If the vets improve and the "young" players do well then the team might compete. If not then there will be the huge selloff that others have desribed.

Except Jerry has had a payroll under $104M every year except this year, 2007 and 2008.

I'd suspect that you're still going to have to cut another $6-7M to get under what IMO the 2012 Sox budget is going to be, close to the 2009 budget of $96M. Trading Thornton could clear a chunk of that.

IMO it's also wishful thinking to assume a weakened roster can outperform this year's solely due to a managerial change.

doublem23
10-04-2011, 11:18 AM
IMO it's also wishful thinking to assume a weakened roster can outperform this year's solely due to a managerial change.

Probably, but Lordy I can't wait to see how you try and spin that if they do.

KMcMahon817
10-04-2011, 11:30 AM
Except Jerry has had a payroll under $104M every year except this year, 2007 and 2008.

I'd suspect that you're still going to have to cut another $6-7M to get under what IMO the 2012 Sox budget is going to be, close to the 2009 budget of $96M. Trading Thornton could clear a chunk of that.

IMO it's also wishful thinking to assume a weakened roster can outperform this year's solely due to a managerial change.

I don't really see how it is significantly weakened, given that the 2011 under-performers play to at least a fraction of what their track record is. De Aza instead of Pierre and Viciedo instead of Quentin is close to wash for me. I love Buehrle as much as anyone, but I also think that Sale is going to be filthy in the rotation, and in turn, take Mark's spot and run with it.

Other than that....it's virtually the same team expect some of the minor roles filled with pre-arb players rather than veterans getting paid 1.5-3M. I don't think Beckham can be any worse than he was in 2011 and hopefully Morel can be a productive hitter for more than one month of the season. Obviously there are alot of ifs in this scenario, but there are ifs with every team. I don't think the SOX will go into 2012 as the AL Central favorite, but as my earlier post said, I think they can be competitive while slashing roughly 25M off the payroll.

People need to realize that Dunn, Rios and Peavy are going to be on the opening day roster. They aren't getting packaged with a more valuable piece in trade. The SOX are much better off just holding onto them and hoping that they rebound to at least close to their career norms. I am sure KW will make a move no one is expecting, but other than Quentin and Thornton there won't be many more major moves. In all honesty, I am fine with that.