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Dan H
09-27-2011, 07:42 AM
Interesting story by K C Johnson in the Tribune today. According to the story, Steve Bartman remains in relative seclusion and has done nothing profit from the 2003 incident.

There were plenty of people who should be ashamed of what happened in the aftermath of a common every day event in major league baseball. This includes the media who hounded him and the Cub fans who threatened him. Not to mention their choking team.

Some Cub fans still hold a grudge and try to tie Bartman to their 103 going on 104 year drought. Absurd. Bartman is the only one with any class.

asindc
09-27-2011, 08:01 AM
ESPN's next 30 for 30 episode will be on Bartman.

Cangelosi CF
09-27-2011, 08:11 AM
ESPN's next 30 for 30 episode will be on Bartman.
I saw the movie which is entitled "Catching Hell" a few months back, as it was at the Tribeca Film Festival. Good stuff and says a lot about our society when people need a scapegoat.

DSpivack
09-27-2011, 10:18 AM
I saw the movie which is entitled "Catching Hell" a few months back, as it was at the Tribeca Film Festival. Good stuff and says a lot about our society when people need a scapegoat.

It says a lot to me that Cubs fans made Bartman the scapegoat, instead of Alex Gonzalez, Mark Prior or Kerry Wood.

Fenway
09-27-2011, 10:27 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/site/newspaper/sports/ct-spt-0927-bartman-chicago--20110927,0,5541700,full.story

dllrbll7
09-27-2011, 11:02 AM
I met him at a Sox game around 2008 in the outfield. Couldn't have been a nicer guy. I feel so bad for him.

C-Dawg
09-27-2011, 11:26 AM
It says a lot to me that Cubs fans made Bartman the scapegoat, instead of Alex Gonzalez, Mark Prior or Kerry Wood.

Everyone knows that the real scapegoat should be the guy in the gray jackey who was seated next to Bartman; he practically knocked over Bartman in his haste to get the ball. And then he had the gall to stand there and point at Bartman when they all realized the cameras were on them!

Smokey Burg
09-27-2011, 12:02 PM
C-Dawg, I thought I was the only person to see that. Close looks at replays indicated to me that Bartman was not the first person to touch the ball. Also, that was not going to be an easy catch for Alou anyway.

SOXPHILE
09-27-2011, 12:33 PM
For God's sake, when the hell is this going to end ? A full page article about the guy on page 8 of the sports, really Tribune ? A movie ? Enough already. It's been 8 years. All these media outlets need to stop bringing the guys name up, writing about him, showing his image in that (wonderful) game 6 over and over and over again. He didn't kill or cripple anyone. He didn't commit treason. He didn't steal millions of dollars from poor orphans. He was a private citizen who, along with a few other people sitting around him, reached for a damned foul ball. Because of that, ESPN, TribCo, and numerous other entities and idiots keep shoving him into the limelight, wanting to tell "his story", link him with the horrible ineptitude of a franchise that hasn't won anything in 103 years, or go "behind the scenes" of what everyone else was thinking that night. That moron ESPN reporter went so far as to stalk him trying to get an interview. Everyone, including the Cubs, needs to just stop. Stop releasing statements about him. Stop sending him stuff to sign. Stop sending him free gifts and memorabilia (that would be you, Cubs) -stop trying to get him to do an interview or take a photo, or consult on a movie. I have never seen anything like this in my life, and I have never seen anything brought up and brought up again and again, years later. They probably will be running a 10 year, 25 year and 50 year special on those anniversaries of that game.

gobears1987
09-27-2011, 12:37 PM
Funny thing, but Tribune columnist and Sox fan John Kass was seated right behind Bartman and was reaching for the same ball. Imagine if he had been the one to get the ball? That would've been a real riot.

dwitt76
09-27-2011, 12:45 PM
As long as the cubs keep losing the bartman thing will live on. Look at what happened to Buckner, they won the series and Boston welcomed him back.

DSpivack
09-27-2011, 01:22 PM
As long as the cubs keep losing the bartman thing will live on. Look at what happened to Buckner, they won the series and Boston welcomed him back.

Buckner was a player, it's completely different. Cubs fan will never forgive Bartman, and yet many have probably already forgotten Alex Gonzalez.

asindc
09-27-2011, 01:32 PM
Buckner was a player, it's completely different. Cubs fan will never forgive Bartman, and yet many have probably already forgotten Alex Gonzalez.

Who's that? Was he at the kegger on Opening Day?

g0g0
09-27-2011, 03:08 PM
For God's sake, when the hell is this going to end ? A full page article about the guy on page 8 of the sports, really Tribune ? A movie ? Enough already. It's been 8 years. All these media outlets need to stop bringing the guys name up, writing about him, showing his image in that (wonderful) game 6 over and over and over again. He didn't kill or cripple anyone. He didn't commit treason. He didn't steal millions of dollars from poor orphans. He was a private citizen who, along with a few other people sitting around him, reached for a damned foul ball. Because of that, ESPN, TribCo, and numerous other entities and idiots keep shoving him into the limelight, wanting to tell "his story", link him with the horrible ineptitude of a franchise that hasn't won anything in 103 years, or go "behind the scenes" of what everyone else was thinking that night. That moron ESPN reporter went so far as to stalk him trying to get an interview. Everyone, including the Cubs, needs to just stop. Stop releasing statements about him. Stop sending him stuff to sign. Stop sending him free gifts and memorabilia (that would be you, Cubs) -stop trying to get him to do an interview or take a photo, or consult on a movie. I have never seen anything like this in my life, and I have never seen anything brought up and brought up again and again, years later. They probably will be running a 10 year, 25 year and 50 year special on those anniversaries of that game.


+ 1,000

Most Cubs fans I know (and boards that I belong to) are sick of the whole thing and don't blame him. We just want it to go away. From everything I've heard, Bartman is nothing but a stand-up guy who was a huge Cubs fan. How crushing it must be to be reviled for just wanting to catch a ball. I probably would have done the exact same thing.

DSpivack
09-27-2011, 03:29 PM
+ 1,000

Most Cubs fans I know (and boards that I belong to) are sick of the whole thing and don't blame him. We just want it to go away. From everything I've heard, Bartman is nothing but a stand-up guy who was a huge Cubs fan. How crushing it must be to be reviled for just wanting to catch a ball. I probably would have done the exact same thing.

I might be the only one here looking forward to tonight's documentary.

g0g0
09-27-2011, 03:39 PM
I might be the only one here looking forward to tonight's documentary.

No, I'm interested to see what spin they can put on it after all these years (and nothing from Bartman himself). I'm hoping since it's one of the 30-4-30 films that it will be well thought out.

PalehosePlanet
09-27-2011, 05:51 PM
I saw the movie which is entitled "Catching Hell" a few months back, as it was at the Tribeca Film Festival. Good stuff and says a lot about our society when people need a scapegoat.

It's on tonight at 7:00 PM on ESPN.

I'm really interested to see if the director (of the actual game, not the documentary) is interviewed and if he feels any guilt for what happened. They showed isolated shots of the poor guy dozens of times after the incident. If they had not done that, the incident would have never blown up like it did.

Why not show Alex Gonzalez in iso shots over and over and over and.....

C-Dawg
09-27-2011, 08:09 PM
"Best Fans Ever!" LOL

Jerks.

SOXPHILE
09-27-2011, 08:14 PM
OK. Against my better judgement, I am watching this right now. All I can say is, what a bunch of ****ing pieces of crap Cubs fans are. I made an earlier post in another thread about how a fan base does not "deserve" a winning or losing team, that saying or thinking that has no place in sports. I take it back. After what I have seen so far, Cubs fans deserve every single bad thing and more that can befall them. Absolutely vile actions by thousands and thousands of fans there. They actually interviewed a guy who went down to where Bartman was sitting to throw beer at him and scream at him. The idiot just kind of smirks in an "aw shucks, yeah I guess I shouldn't have done that" kind of way. Again, disgusting actions and words by media people too, like those two clowns on PTI, Wilbon and Kornheiser. Shame on the Sun Times and Dane Placko. We also are treated to things like author Scott Turrow telling us there's almost something spiritual about growing up with and rooting for the Cubs.

C-Dawg
09-27-2011, 09:04 PM
Just like ESPN to have a bunch of Red Sox references sprinkled in. I came back from a restroom break and it had turned into the Bill Buckner story.

DSpivack
09-27-2011, 09:07 PM
Just like ESPN to have a bunch of Red Sox references sprinkled in. I came back from a restroom break and it had turned into the Bill Buckner story.

30-for-30 are independently produced. The director of this film is from Boston. I don't mind this comparison, it almost fits. At least Boston's scapegoat was actually a member of the Red Sox, however.

RockJock07
09-27-2011, 09:09 PM
I've yet to watch the 30 for 30, DVRing right now. This whole story is fascinating to me because of how stacked the marlins were.

Ozzie as 3rd base coach, who probably had the closest view of the whole play if I'm not mistaken, is quite ironic and Derrek Lee with the killer punch is icing on the cake.

MUsoxfan
09-27-2011, 09:10 PM
The most revealing part was when Alou said he and Aramis booked flights home right after Game 6 because they were sure they would lose Game 7

Dan H
09-27-2011, 09:17 PM
I thought the show was important. Not being a Cub fan, I didn't follow this closely and didn't realize how bad this situation was. Bartman was the only one who came out looking human. Most everyone else from fans to media looked like a bunch of psychopaths. One guy recalled how he threatened Bartman and still acted like he wanted to carry out the threat. Some said Bartman made a mistake. He made no mistakes. Everyone else did and how they can live with themselves, I don't know. Like someone on the show said. Chicago doesn't have to forgive Bartman; Bartman, if he wants, can forgive just about everyone else. BTW, Tony Kornheiser is a complete idiot.

TommyJohn
09-27-2011, 09:32 PM
OK. Against my better judgement, I am watching this right now. All I can say is, what a bunch of ****ing pieces of crap Cubs fans are. I made an earlier post in another thread about how a fan base does not "deserve" a winning or losing team, that saying or thinking that has no place in sports. I take it back. After what I have seen so far, Cubs fans deserve every single bad thing and more that can befall them. Absolutely vile actions by thousands and thousands of fans there. They actually interviewed a guy who went down to where Bartman was sitting to throw beer at him and scream at him. The idiot just kind of smirks in an "aw shucks, yeah I guess I shouldn't have done that" kind of way. Again, disgusting actions and words by media people too, like those two clowns on PTI, Wilbon and Kornheiser. Shame on the Sun Times and Dane Placko. We also are treated to things like author Scott Turrow telling us there's almost something spiritual about growing up with and rooting for the Cubs.

This is why I didn't watch it. I knew we would see **** like this. The revolting part of it is that the fan and those others probably don't regret their actions at all. Jerks. And they have balls to still give us **** about Ligue.

DSpivack
09-27-2011, 09:50 PM
This is why I didn't watch it. I knew we would see **** like this. The revolting part of it is that the fan and those others probably don't regret their actions at all. Jerks. And they have balls to still give us **** about Ligue.

And Soxphile didn't even mention the thousands of fans yelling "*******!" and pointing at him. Good thing that security got him out of there, otherwise I think he would have been lynched.

aryzner
09-27-2011, 10:36 PM
Wow I seriously saw the thread title and read "Batman article"

long day I guess LOL

DSpivack
09-27-2011, 10:39 PM
Just finished watching it. My favorite part may be the minister who used Bartman as a analogy for the biblical story of the scapegoat.

Soxman219
09-27-2011, 10:49 PM
I feel so bad for Bartman after watching that. He can never live a normal life again because of Cub fans and the media. I hope the Cubs never win a World Series. Period.

thomas35forever
09-28-2011, 12:14 AM
I haven't had a chance to watch this yet, but I definitely will when I get a chance.

MrX
09-28-2011, 02:18 AM
Those 2 lawyers who formed their own commission are spamming some of the comments sections over on chicagosports.com. Apparently you can buy their "report."

On their website, both of them refer to themselves as a commissioner.

Dan H
09-28-2011, 05:30 AM
I feel so bad for Bartman after watching that. He can never live a normal life again because of Cub fans and the media. I hope the Cubs never win a World Series. Period.


I agree with this totally. The Bartman incident exposed the Cub fandom for what it is and also showed the media has no conscience. I only hope we Sox fans never stoop to something like this.

C-Dawg
09-28-2011, 06:23 AM
30-for-30 are independently produced. The director of this film is from Boston. I don't mind this comparison, it almost fits. At least Boston's scapegoat was actually a member of the Red Sox, however.

Yea, I'd missed the part where he mentioned he was from Boston (I was switching back and forth to the real Sox game) and I found it puzzling the first couple times he mentioned "the beloved '86 Sox". I was thinking - weren't they awful that year? Then I realized he meant the "other" Sox.

Weird how they kept mentioning Buckner was a member of the Red Sox. Did they forget he once was a Cub?

C-Dawg
09-28-2011, 06:25 AM
Those 2 lawyers who formed their own commission are spamming some of the comments sections over on chicagosports.com. Apparently you can buy their "report."


Nice to see a couple "experts" chiming in.

dwitt76
09-28-2011, 07:55 AM
I agree with this totally. The Bartman incident exposed the Cub fandom for what it is and also showed the media has no conscience. I only hope we Sox fans never stoop to something like this.

Unfortunately those 2 idiots who attacked the 1st base coach from KC in 03 is stooping pretty low.

asindc
09-28-2011, 07:57 AM
OK. Against my better judgement, I am watching this right now. All I can say is, what a bunch of ****ing pieces of crap Cubs fans are. I made an earlier post in another thread about how a fan base does not "deserve" a winning or losing team, that saying or thinking that has no place in sports. I take it back. After what I have seen so far, Cubs fans deserve every single bad thing and more that can befall them. Absolutely vile actions by thousands and thousands of fans there. They actually interviewed a guy who went down to where Bartman was sitting to throw beer at him and scream at him. The idiot just kind of smirks in an "aw shucks, yeah I guess I shouldn't have done that" kind of way. Again, disgusting actions and words by media people too, like those two clowns on PTI, Wilbon and Kornheiser. Shame on the Sun Times and Dane Placko. We also are treated to things like author Scott Turrow telling us there's almost something spiritual about growing up with and rooting for the Cubs.

What did Wilbon and Kornheiser say about that was disgusting?

asindc
09-28-2011, 07:58 AM
The most revealing part was when Alou said he and Aramis booked flights home right after Game 6 because they were sure they would lose Game 7

That is classic Cubs. Classic.

asindc
09-28-2011, 08:02 AM
Yea, I'd missed the part where he mentioned he was from Boston (I was switching back and forth to the real Sox game) and I found it puzzling the first couple times he mentioned "the beloved '86 Sox". I was thinking - weren't they awful that year? Then I realized he meant the "other" Sox.

Weird how they kept mentioning Buckner was a member of the Red Sox. Did they forget he once was a Cub?

Imagine living on the East Coast. I've been here 27 years and I still do a double-take when I hear it in a strange context.

g0g0
09-28-2011, 08:13 AM
I agree with this totally. The Bartman incident exposed the Cub fandom for what it is and also showed the media has no conscience. I only hope we Sox fans never stoop to something like this.

One game (that was during one of the most important, if not THE most important, game in generations for Cubs fans) doesn't describe the fanbase as a whole. Just as the 2 fans who attacked Tom Gamboa doesn't describe the Sox fanbase. It was a heated moment and people dropped the ball and made it into a huge media sensation.

I'm glad the guy who did the 2005 piece realized he was being a douche by trying to track down a stand up individual who has dealt with the situation perfectly.

Also - the whole Alou thing is just pathetic. The guy is as much to blame as anyone else.

skobabe8
09-28-2011, 08:22 AM
Holy **** is Dane Placko a scumbag.

SOXPHILE
09-28-2011, 08:27 AM
What did Wilbon and Kornheiser say about that was disgusting?


They showed a quick clip of them from PTI, and Wilbon was bringing up Bartman, saying "THIS guy..." and Kornheiser yells out "THIS guy is DEAD MEAT !" And that was only a quick 5 second clip from the show. I can only wonder in disgust what else they said.

And as for comparing this to the Ligue attack in 2002, it's not the same. That was two white trash idiots. What I saw on last nights game was thousands and thousands of assclowns yelling "******* ! ******* !" over an over again. Then quite a few people throwing beer at Bartman. Then, while being escorted out of the park, even more people trying to get to him. Then there was all the media, both local and national, and their actions. I also couldn't stand the whole self important, "whoa is us the poor Cubs fans" attitude some of the people they were interviewing seemed to have.

AlleghenySoxFan
09-28-2011, 08:42 AM
People might say that fans of any team would react that way in that situation in the immediate aftermath, but I honestly believe that would never have happened at a Sox game even before 2005.

DSpivack
09-28-2011, 08:52 AM
They showed a quick clip of them from PTI, and Wilbon was bringing up Bartman, saying "THIS guy..." and Kornheiser yells out "THIS guy is DEAD MEAT !" And that was only a quick 5 second clip from the show. I can only wonder in disgust what else they said.

And as for comparing this to the Ligue attack in 2002, it's not the same. That was two white trash idiots. What I saw on last nights game was thousands and thousands of assclowns yelling "******* ! ******* !" over an over again. Then quite a few people throwing beer at Bartman. Then, while being escorted out of the park, even more people trying to get to him. Then there was all the media, both local and national, and their actions. I also couldn't stand the whole self important, "whoa is us the poor Cubs fans" attitude some of the people they were interviewing seemed to have.

I honestly think that if security had not escorted him out that he would not have survived that night.

Yea, I'd missed the part where he mentioned he was from Boston (I was switching back and forth to the real Sox game) and I found it puzzling the first couple times he mentioned "the beloved '86 Sox". I was thinking - weren't they awful that year? Then I realized he meant the "other" Sox.

Weird how they kept mentioning Buckner was a member of the Red Sox. Did they forget he once was a Cub?

They mentioned it, there was a brief segment on how Leon Durham replaced Buckner at 1B for the Cubs, and had his own, uhh, moment in the playoffs.

hawkjt
09-28-2011, 09:43 AM
I agree with Mully today when he said it seemed like they took a one hour movie and stretched it into 2 hours.
Never caught why Kass was trying to give Bartman his card...was he seeking to have him conduct an interview with him? Kass is such a Sox ''fan'' I am surprised he was there. But he clearly wanted to get in on the action...nice vulture action.

beasly213
09-28-2011, 09:52 AM
Any word on when this will be replayed?

g0g0
09-28-2011, 10:33 AM
They showed a quick clip of them from PTI, and Wilbon was bringing up Bartman, saying "THIS guy..." and Kornheiser yells out "THIS guy is DEAD MEAT !" And that was only a quick 5 second clip from the show. I can only wonder in disgust what else they said.

And as for comparing this to the Ligue attack in 2002, it's not the same. That was two white trash idiots. What I saw on last nights game was thousands and thousands of assclowns yelling "******* ! ******* !" over an over again. Then quite a few people throwing beer at Bartman. Then, while being escorted out of the park, even more people trying to get to him. Then there was all the media, both local and national, and their actions. I also couldn't stand the whole self important, "whoa is us the poor Cubs fans" attitude some of the people they were interviewing seemed to have.

Okay, Disco Demolition night then. Big enough crowd? The point is if you are basing your whole perception of a team's fanbase on one event, then you aren't getting a good sample. Especially when something that big happens.

spawn
09-28-2011, 10:35 AM
Any word on when this will be replayed?

I set it up to record tomorrow at 10:00pm.

TommyJohn
09-28-2011, 10:44 AM
Okay, Disco Demolition night then. Big enough crowd? The point is if you are basing your whole perception of a team's fanbase on one event, then you aren't getting a good sample. Especially when something that big happens.

I just love all the pissy back-and-forth that goes on when subjects like this come up. My problem is when Cub fans continue to attack Sox fans over the Lugue incident, looking past their own rotten behavior. Sox fans always have to combat such bull**** with "you can't let a few spoil the whole." Which is essentially what you are saying now. Yesirree. Sure does hurt and bug you to get painted with a broad brush, doesn't it? Now you know how we feel. Welcome to the club.

skobabe8
09-28-2011, 10:56 AM
Any word on when this will be replayed?

I see it scheduled for thursday night, 10 pm, ESPN2.

SOXPHILE
09-28-2011, 10:58 AM
Okay, Disco Demolition night then. Big enough crowd? The point is if you are basing your whole perception of a team's fanbase on one event, then you aren't getting a good sample. Especially when something that big happens.


Disco Demolition ? I knew someone was going to bring that up as a counterpoint. Yes, that was a bad day, a black eye for the Sox. But, Disco Demolition was a bad idea of a promotion that Bill Veeck let himself get talked into. All of those thousands of people that swarmed the field between games of that Tigers-Sox doubleheader were not baseball fans or there for the ballgames. They went there because of the promotion, to go see that idiot Steve Dahl blow up disco records on the field. There were people literally climbing the walls and crawling through those outfield arches to get into the park. To compare that to what happened in 2003 doesn't work. Those people were at the game, and went after an individual because of what happened during the game.

That would be like if there was a Jimmy Buffet concert at Wrigley, and a big drunken brawl broke out, with people rushing the stage causing Buffet to have to cancel the rest of the show. If that happened, that wouldn't be a referendum on Cubs fans or the Cubs. It would have nothing to do with the Cubs, other than the event was held at Wrigley.

skobabe8
09-28-2011, 11:02 AM
Okay, Disco Demolition night then. Big enough crowd? The point is if you are basing your whole perception of a team's fanbase on one event, then you aren't getting a good sample. Especially when something that big happens.

What you said is true.

However with this event, the movie goes through great detail to document all of the curse bull**** with the Cub franchise and fan base. I think this underlying "we're cursed" nonsense is limited to the Cubs, so I think it's fair to say the behavior of the fans that night was the byproduct of a fan base that feels they are cursed.

Point is, I don't think most other fans would have done that.

C-Dawg
09-28-2011, 11:18 AM
My problem is when Cub fans continue to attack Sox fans over the Lugue incident, looking past their own rotten behavior. Sox fans always have to combat such bull**** with "you can't let a few spoil the whole." Which is essentially what you are saying now.

Specifically, the Ligue incident is the one and only incident that ever gets any airplay in the media anymore; if I've seen it once I've seen it a thousand times. Hmmm, a fan was mugged at Dodger Stadium? Let's show tape of the Ligue incident! I know I saw it at least twice this past season.

Most of what was shown on the Bartman show last night was stuff we'd never seen. Yes we've all seen the replays but that's ALL we've seen. To me the rest of it was a real eye-opener.

skobabe8
09-28-2011, 11:51 AM
Most of what was shown on the Bartman show last night was stuff we'd never seen. Yes we've all seen the replays but that's ALL we've seen. To me the rest of it was a real eye-opener.

Completely agree.

I wanted to know what happened after he was escorted out...I wanted to know if the media was as bad as I remember (they were worse)...I wanted to know if Steve was ever found or talked to (he has been)...It was a great documentary, minus the Red Sox junk.

MarySwiss
09-28-2011, 11:54 AM
Specifically, the Ligue incident is the one and only incident that ever gets any airplay in the media anymore; if I've seen it once I've seen it a thousand times. Hmmm, a fan was mugged at Dodger Stadium? Let's show tape of the Ligue incident! I know I saw it at least twice this past season.

Most of what was shown on the Bartman show last night was stuff we'd never seen. Yes we've all seen the replays but that's ALL we've seen. To me the rest of it was a real eye-opener.
I DVR-ed it last night. Can't wait to watch it tonight.

Moses_Scurry
09-28-2011, 11:59 AM
Just finished watching it, and that was some great comedy there. Blowing up the ball and eating it in spaghetti is soooooo cubfanlike. *SPOILER ALERT* I think the funniest thing about it had to be the look on Patrick's face when the phone caller asked him if he liked Howard Stern's buttcheese. /END SPOILER. It is amazing to me that in this technological age that there aren't a thousand encounters with Steve Bartman out there on Youtube, etc. I'd like to think that the cub fans have forgiven and forgotten him. The guy still lives and works in Chicago. There has to be a large number of people who live around him, work in the same building, etc. who are dying to talk to him about it.

I also think that he has probably gone to a number of cub games since that night. The only people who would likely recognize him (assuming he wasn't stupid enough to wear the same outfit) are people who know him well enough to not want to out him in public. I've been to many, many Sox games, and it is very rare for me to spot anybody I know at the park. A cub fan might think they recognize him, but how could you be sure? And if they asked him, he would probably deny it.

DSpivack
09-28-2011, 12:23 PM
Disco Demolition ? I knew someone was going to bring that up as a counterpoint. Yes, that was a bad day, a black eye for the Sox. But, Disco Demolition was a bad idea of a promotion that Bill Veeck let himself get talked into. All of those thousands of people that swarmed the field between games of that Tigers-Sox doubleheader were not baseball fans or there for the ballgames. They went there because of the promotion, to go see that idiot Steve Dahl blow up disco records on the field. There were people literally climbing the walls and crawling through those outfield arches to get into the park. To compare that to what happened in 2003 doesn't work. Those people were at the game, and went after an individual because of what happened during the game.

That would be like if there was a Jimmy Buffet concert at Wrigley, and a big drunken brawl broke out, with people rushing the stage causing Buffet to have to cancel the rest of the show. If that happened, that wouldn't be a referendum on Cubs fans or the Cubs. It would have nothing to do with the Cubs, other than the event was held at Wrigley.

I would compare Disco Demolition with Ten-Cent Beer Night, both dumb, one-time promotions that went seriously awry.

I think Bartman was lucky to escape with his life that night. And Cubs fans routinely throw trash on their own field after a call goes against them or a manager gets angry, and also throw racial abuse at players from their own team they don't like. I don't know another fan base that does that.

Soxman24
09-28-2011, 12:42 PM
I would compare Disco Demolition with Ten-Cent Beer Night, both dumb, one-time promotions that went seriously awry.

I think Bartman was lucky to escape with his life that night. And Cubs fans routinely throw trash on their own field after a call goes against them or a manager gets angry, and also throw racial abuse at players from their own team they don't like. I don't know another fan base that does that.


What is interesting about this is that if you threw anything on the playing field at any other ballpark you would be gone in a heart beat. I was at Nationals Park a few years ago and some guy threw the other teams home run ball back and he was escorted out. The fact that it is "tolerated and celebrated" there is a complete joke.

DirtySox
09-28-2011, 12:49 PM
I keep reading this as "Batman article." I then get disappointed when I open the thread.

DSpivack
09-28-2011, 01:14 PM
I keep reading this as "Batman article." I then get disappointed when I open the thread.

Well, he did have to assume another identity just to survive that night. And those who were glad to see the Cubs lose might even consider him a hero, of sorts. :tongue:

pythons007
09-28-2011, 01:21 PM
Holy **** is Dane Placko a scumbag.

You should know as well as anyone that anyone with the first name Dane is a scumbag.

What I couldn't believe, was even during ALL the interviews for this documentary all the media members were saying he made a mistake. Put any of them in the same situation, any person who has ever attended a baseball game and you'll get the same outcome. He made no mistake, he did nothing any other fan would have done. This was all in a line too, one after another..."He made a mistake".

I dare anyone to go to a game and watch a foul ball/homerun come your way, right in an arms length of your seat and you watch it sail past you. I bet you couldn't pay someone, it's a split-second reaction. It's like when you fall your arm come out to catch you before you hit the ground.

The media needs to admit that they were completely wrong, and not call it a mistake.

DSpivack
09-28-2011, 01:22 PM
You should know as well as anyone that anyone with the first name Dane is a scumbag.

What I couldn't believe, was even during ALL the interviews for this documentary all the media members were saying he made a mistake. Put any of them in the same situation, any person who has ever attended a baseball game and you'll get the same outcome. He made no mistake, he did nothing any other fan would have done. This was all in a line too, one after another..."He made a mistake".

I dare anyone to go to a game and watch a foul ball/homerun come your way, right in an arms length of your seat and you watch it sail past you. I bet you couldn't pay someone, it's a split-second reaction. It's like when you fall your arm come out to catch you before you hit the ground.

The media needs to admit that they were completely wrong, and not call it a mistake.

Who was it towards the end who said that pub owner could have easily been the scapegoat, as he had as much of a hand on the ball as Bartman did?

Dan H
09-28-2011, 01:57 PM
I think the big difference in this case is that Bartman's life was so adversely effected for so long. He needed police protection and then went into hiding and is still hiding. Some Cub fans are still scapegoating him. In the end, he felt he was the reason his favorite team didn't go to the World Series and others hold a grudge because the dumb ass Cubs still haven't made it there. He apologized when there was nothing to apologize for and his apology wasn't gracefully accepted. Instead his privacy was invaded and he feared for his safety if not for his life.

How many times does a foul ball not get caught when it should and the pitcher has to get around that mistake? The Cubs were still ahead and had the opportunity to get out of the inning with minimal damage. If they let a bad break get to them, that was their fault, not Bartman's.

And there is no such thing as a curse.

mrs. hendu
09-28-2011, 03:21 PM
It's amazing that he has chosen not to make money off of this whole thing. I respect him for that. There are many people who would have jumped at any and every opportunity to make a quick buck.

This thing does need to go away. The media, Cubs fans and everyone else need to live this guy alone. We shouldn't even know his name.

pythons007
09-28-2011, 03:46 PM
It's amazing that he has chosen not to make money off of this whole thing. I respect him for that. There are many people who would have jumped at any and every opportunity to make a quick buck.

This thing does need to go away. The media, Cubs fans and everyone else need to live this guy alone. We shouldn't even know his name.


I wonder what the outcome would have been if he went that route!?!?

DSpivack
09-28-2011, 03:57 PM
It's amazing that he has chosen not to make money off of this whole thing. I respect him for that. There are many people who would have jumped at any and every opportunity to make a quick buck.

This thing does need to go away. The media, Cubs fans and everyone else need to live this guy alone. We shouldn't even know his name.

There are some who have gone that route, as seen by the guy who sold the ball to Harry Caray's for, what did they say, $100,000?

I'm guessing Bartman hasn't gone that route because he genuinely fears for his safety. I think they mentioned he had several death threats at the time.

Shoeless Joe
09-28-2011, 09:10 PM
It's currently on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbkDwk_-AE

Personally, despite my hatred of ESPN, nearly all the 30 for 30 films released have been excellent (especially The Two Escobars). I thought this film was a great critique on the rabid insanity that pro sports can sometimes incite. That poor guy shouldn't have gone through that...

By the way does anyone else believe that Dane Placko set up that shot behind his aquarium?

g0g0
09-29-2011, 08:05 AM
There are some who have gone that route, as seen by the guy who sold the ball to Harry Caray's for, what did they say, $100,000?

I'm guessing Bartman hasn't gone that route because he genuinely fears for his safety. I think they mentioned he had several death threats at the time.

I don't think that at all. From everything I've seen and read about him he's just a stand-up guy. There are still people out there who are not motivated completely by money.

Plus, the other thing is this guy was a huge Cubs fan. I think he's genuinely sorry (though he doesn't owe an apology) and doesn't want to throw the Cubs under the bus (which would go back to your point).

MARTINMVP
09-29-2011, 12:12 PM
It says a lot to me that Cubs fans made Bartman the scapegoat, instead of Alex Gonzalez, Mark Prior or Kerry Wood.

This.

MARTINMVP
09-29-2011, 12:15 PM
For God's sake, when the hell is this going to end ? A full page article about the guy on page 8 of the sports, really Tribune ? A movie ? Enough already. It's been 8 years. All these media outlets need to stop bringing the guys name up, writing about him, showing his image in that (wonderful) game 6 over and over and over again. He didn't kill or cripple anyone. He didn't commit treason. He didn't steal millions of dollars from poor orphans. He was a private citizen who, along with a few other people sitting around him, reached for a damned foul ball. Because of that, ESPN, TribCo, and numerous other entities and idiots keep shoving him into the limelight, wanting to tell "his story", link him with the horrible ineptitude of a franchise that hasn't won anything in 103 years, or go "behind the scenes" of what everyone else was thinking that night. That moron ESPN reporter went so far as to stalk him trying to get an interview. Everyone, including the Cubs, needs to just stop. Stop releasing statements about him. Stop sending him stuff to sign. Stop sending him free gifts and memorabilia (that would be you, Cubs) -stop trying to get him to do an interview or take a photo, or consult on a movie. I have never seen anything like this in my life, and I have never seen anything brought up and brought up again and again, years later. They probably will be running a 10 year, 25 year and 50 year special on those anniversaries of that game.

There is so much stupidity around the whole incident. It is very unfortunate, and honestly makes me very angry, that it is the primarily the media trying to keep him relevant.

MARTINMVP
09-29-2011, 12:33 PM
I still feel guilty at times about being a former Cubs fan, who made the gradual switch (some five years) to White Sox fandom.

That said, I do feel a strong sense of reassurance when I come across this Bartman crap, or any references to a religious awakening or something magical being equivalent to being a Cubs fan.

I know all of their fans aren't silly, and I do enjoy the posts from g0g0.

Even with all the bad seasons since I've been following the Sox though, I've never enjoyed the game more.

cards press box
09-29-2011, 06:32 PM
It says a lot to me that Cubs fans made Bartman the scapegoat, instead of Alex Gonzalez, Mark Prior or Kerry Wood.

Or Dusty Baker. Matt Clement was arguably pitching as well as any Cub down the stretch in 2003. Baker could have used him out of the bullpen in Game 6 or Game 7. He didn't.

In contrast, Jack McKeon didn't hesitate to use Josh Beckett for four innings to secure Game 7 even though Beckett was pitching on two days rest, having pitched in Game 5. At the time, McKeon essentially said, "he's young, we're coming up to the offseason and the pennant is on the line."

C-Dawg
09-29-2011, 08:54 PM
Or Dusty Baker. Matt Clement was arguably pitching as well as any Cub down the stretch in 2003. Baker could have used him out of the bullpen in Game 6 or Game 7. He didn't.



Had to keep him fresh for the World Series. Those Yankees were going to be tough!

jdm2662
09-29-2011, 09:58 PM
Or Dusty Baker. Matt Clement was arguably pitching as well as any Cub down the stretch in 2003. Baker could have used him out of the bullpen in Game 6 or Game 7. He didn't.


That was amazing to me. Meanwhile, as already mentioned, McKeon pitched Becket for 4 innings on two days rest. Also, in game 7 of the NYY-BOS series, Toree used both Mussina and Wells out of the pen. Mariano also pitched three innings. When there is no tomorrow, you go all out.

Tragg
09-29-2011, 10:58 PM
Just an abject disgrace by the Cubs fans. They've gotten off so easy for their obscene behavior.

Alou acted like an idiot too.

g0g0
09-30-2011, 09:21 AM
That was amazing to me. Meanwhile, as already mentioned, McKeon pitched Becket for 4 innings on two days rest. Also, in game 7 of the NYY-BOS series, Toree used both Mussina and Wells out of the pen. Mariano also pitched three innings. When there is no tomorrow, you go all out.

+1

...and then worry about the next series IF you get to it.

Brewski
09-30-2011, 09:48 AM
See it again. It never gets old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX8OwMeE2MQ Two hits for Juan Pierre, great stuff.

Mendoza Line
09-30-2011, 11:07 AM
I think there's still a lot of interest in Bartman because the story lacks closure. If he were to make a public appearance, Cub fans who treated him badly would finally see that he's alive and well, and forgive themselves for abusing him. As long as Bartman is in hiding, the guilt of their behavior will remain.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-30-2011, 12:45 PM
I only watched about 15 minutes of Catching Hell last night and it was reprehensible the way the fans acted and the Cubs organization acted (or did not act).

There is not a single person in any ballpark in baseball who would not have reached for that ball, particularly since the Alou could not be seen and no one in the stands could have known he had a play on the ball.

And there was no guarantee he was going to catch the ball, either.

That aside, the lynch mob of Cub fandom shows how little collective class they have.

As for the Cubs, the management and ownership of that team ought to hold a press conference with Bartman and tell every one of those fans that he had nothing to do with the Cubs losing that game. They lost for a lot of reasons, including keeping Prior in too long, the errors, etc., plus they still had a game 7. They should then put him in the best executive suite they have for every game, be very public about it, embrace him, and tell all those piss-poor Cubs fans its over and they don't condone attacks and threats of violence on anyone. They should have done that the day after they were eliminated.

pythons007
09-30-2011, 03:50 PM
I think there's still a lot of interest in Bartman because the story lacks closure. If he were to make a public appearance, Cub fans who treated him badly would finally see that he's alive and well, and forgive themselves for abusing him. As long as Bartman is in hiding, the guilt of their behavior will remain.

He should get a spot on one of the Super Bowl commercials and just go off on Cub fans. That would be closure!

cards press box
10-01-2011, 03:03 AM
He apologized when there was nothing to apologize for and his apology wasn't gracefully accepted. Instead his privacy was invaded and he feared for his safety if not for his life.

Boy, I could not agree more. If there was one thing that I would have liked to see Steve Bartman do differently, it would have been that apology. He took blame for the Game 6 loss that rightfully belonged to the players and the manager. By the way, whatever faults Ozzie displayed toward the end of his managerial run in Chicago, he never would have blamed a fan the way that Dusty Baker did in the press conference after Game 6.

Anyway, I just didn't like seeing Mr. Bartman apologizing to the mob. It should have been the other way around.

TommyJohn
10-01-2011, 09:33 AM
I have a huge amount of respect for Bartman for not attempting to cash in on it in any way. For all we know, he probably feels some responsibility for the loss (if his apology is any indication) and thus refuses to capitalize on the incident. How many other people in our fame-obsessed society would do the same? I don't know that I would, who knows. (Although if I pulled an act that I felt cost the White Sox a pennant I probably would react the same way Bartman did). I think it is especially classy that he never even responded to his tormentors in the media-Mariotti, Telander, Teinowitz, Munson, and others of that pack of jackals. That takes restraint. I admire him-but NOT for what he did in Game 6. I admire him for the way he conducted himself since that night.

If he did try to cash in on it, I'm sure many of the pack of media and fan jackals would howl that Bartman is making money off of their pain-much like Red Sox fans did when Buck started doing card shows with Mookie Wilson (which was as beautiful a "**** you" as any ever delivered). And who knows? I'm sure Bartman was terrified for his life that night and thanks God (or luck, or whatever) that he got out of there alive. Why do anything that would remind him of that night? But enough with the armchair psychoanalysis. I don't know the guy.

And that ESPN guy who stalked him was Wayne Drehs, who, I'm sad to report, still has a career after stalking Bartman and writing that he faced him down "tortured soul to tortured soul." Ugh.

Madvora
10-01-2011, 11:57 AM
Just finished watching Catching Hell.
This is definitely not "The Steve Bartman Story." It was made by a Red Sox fan and spends the first 25 minutes on Bill Buckner before really starting on the Bartman story. Then the movie returns to Bill Buckner at the end again.
I get it. I get the comparisons and I know that this isn't titled "The Steve Bartman Story" but "Catching Hell" but it seemed like it was made with the intention of examining the Bartman story, but couldn't get back on track because the guy can't stop talking about the god damn Red Sox.

TommyJohn
10-01-2011, 12:19 PM
Just finished watching Catching Hell.
This is definitely not "The Steve Bartman Story." It was made by a Red Sox fan and spends the first 25 minutes on Bill Buckner before really starting on the Bartman story. Then the movie returns to Bill Buckner at the end again.
I get it. I get the comparisons and I know that this isn't titled "The Steve Bartman Story" but "Catching Hell" but it seemed like it was made with the intention of examining the Bartman story, but couldn't get back on track because the guy can't stop talking about the god damn Red Sox.

Tell me about it. I just watched it on youtube myself. It was slightly overwrought, to say the least. Not the part about Bartman, but the blabbering about curses and trying to find the deeper meaning of it all, or whatever. Geez.

You know what stinks? That game and that moment are better remembered than the 2005 World Series. Hate to bring that up, but it's true.

One more thing. Les Grobstein's take on it is that it was "garbage" and he refused to watch. Fine. Except he keeps saying that there are fans of the Cardinals, Marlins and White Sox who still "eat it up." I would like to know precisely what he means. The general concensus on this board now (and when the doc was first announced) is disgust and a sense that Bartman didn't do anything wrong and should be left alone. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of Sox fans are still overjoyed at what happened to the Cubs in 2003, but the general feeling by Sox fans seem to be Les Grobstein's view: Bartman had nothing to do with the Cubs losing.

michned
10-01-2011, 12:51 PM
Just finished watching Catching Hell.
This is definitely not "The Steve Bartman Story." It was made by a Red Sox fan and spends the first 25 minutes on Bill Buckner before really starting on the Bartman story. Then the movie returns to Bill Buckner at the end again.
I get it. I get the comparisons and I know that this isn't titled "The Steve Bartman Story" but "Catching Hell" but it seemed like it was made with the intention of examining the Bartman story, but couldn't get back on track because the guy can't stop talking about the god damn Red Sox.

Not to make excuses for the filmmaker, but I think a big part of the Buckner comparison in the film is that the fans finally forgave him (even though the Sawx had to win two World Series before that happened) and it leaves the viewer wondering if Cub fans will ever forgive Bartman.

Red Barchetta
10-01-2011, 01:41 PM
It says a lot to me that Cubs fans made Bartman the scapegoat, instead of Alex Gonzalez, Mark Prior or Kerry Wood.


I agree. The guy in hiding should be Alex Gonzalez. If the Cub fans want to blame someone for their misery, why not look up Gonzalez and Leon Durham?! I think they are renting a beach house from Bill Buckner. :rolleyes:

I also remember pointing out to my Cub fan buddies how many other people were reaching for the ball and only after Alou had his little tirade did they zero in on Bartmann.

C-Dawg
10-04-2011, 07:24 AM
I also remember pointing out to my Cub fan buddies how many other people were reaching for the ball and only after Alou had his little tirade did they zero in on Bartmann.

LOL Like I mentioned earlier (I think); look at the guy with the gray jacket who reaches for the ball and almost knocks Bartman over, yet when he realizes all the cameras are on them afterward he stands there and has the gall to point at Bartman. It was interesting to see him finally identified but why the interviewers didn't grill him I don't know.

Les Grobstein's take on it is that it was "garbage" and he refused to watch. Fine. Except he keeps saying that there are fans of the Cardinals, Marlins and White Sox who still "eat it up."

Les needs to remember that the "notoriety" of the Bartman story is a creation of the very same media that he's employed by. None of those other fans would even remember the guy (Bartman) if the media hadn't replayed it a million times and showed him again and again. The real story in that series is not Bartman but the fact that the Cubs blew a 3-games-to 1 lead and also a 3-0 lead with just five outs remaining - blew a chance to go to the World Series!

DSpivack
10-04-2011, 10:31 AM
LOL Like I mentioned earlier (I think); look at the guy with the gray jacket who reaches for the ball and almost knocks Bartman over, yet when he realizes all the cameras are on them afterward he stands there and has the gall to point at Bartman. It was interesting to see him finally identified but why the interviewers didn't grill him I don't know.

Les needs to remember that the "notoriety" of the Bartman story is a creation of the very same media that he's employed by. None of those other fans would even remember the guy (Bartman) if the media hadn't replayed it a million times and showed him again and again. The real story in that series is not Bartman but the fact that the Cubs blew a 3-games-to 1 lead and also a 3-0 lead with just five outs remaining - blew a chance to go to the World Series!

The director mentioned to the guy that it easily could have been the Pat (forgot the bar owner's last name) game instead of the Bartman game.

C-Dawg
10-04-2011, 12:30 PM
The director mentioned to the guy that it easily could have been the Pat (forgot the bar owner's last name) game instead of the Bartman game.

Right, he made sure it wasn't forever known as the "Pat Game" by pointing at Steve when the cameras were on them. Yes I know he says he wasn't "pointing" at him but that's coming from 8 years of 20/20 hindsight.

DSpivack
10-04-2011, 02:24 PM
Right, he made sure it wasn't forever known as the "Pat Game" by pointing at Steve when the cameras were on them. Yes I know he says he wasn't "pointing" at him but that's coming from 8 years of 20/20 hindsight.

Yeah, he really came across as a big-time *******.

JoeyCora28
10-04-2011, 03:49 PM
The only person who didn't come across as a big-time ******* in the whole piece was the woman who worked in Security for the Cubs. She made sure that Bartman was able to get out of the area safely after the incident. You could still see that what happened that night still affects her today.

It made me wonder what would have happened if ANYBODY (any of the players, Dusty Baker, Hendry or Trib brass) had stood up in the post-game press conference and said, "Look, what happened in the 8th inning tonight had nothing to do with this fan, we still had chances to end the inning and win the game. It just didn't work out that way. We need to put this behind us and concentrate on winning game 7."

cub killer
10-04-2011, 04:44 PM
If Steve Bartman looked like Randy Coutre, then none of this woulda happened. The whole "pick on the nerd" mentality prevails for cub fans long after High School. If Steve was a scintilla stronger, these headhunters would back off. But they demonize him because he happens to be the only guy they can beat up. So they feel better about themselves.

TommyJohn
10-04-2011, 05:07 PM
If Steve Bartman looked like Randy Coutre, then none of this woulda happened. The whole "pick on the nerd" mentality prevails for cub fans long after High School. If Steve was a scintilla stronger, these headhunters would back off. But they demonize him because he happens to be the only guy they can beat up. So they feel better about themselves.


Picking on the nerd is a social thing, not a Cub fan thing. But I agree with the rest of your post. If Bartman looked like Pierce Brosnan or was a crew-cut ex-Marine I don't think he'd have endured half the abuse he took. For one thing, if he was about 6'2" and 200 lbs. I don't think that pathetic jagoff Lester Munson would have expressed a desire to strangle him.

Max Power
10-05-2011, 01:34 PM
I'll admit I watched Catching Hell the other night. For some reason I was under the impression it would be a broad look at the concept of scapegoats in sports rather than strictly focusing on the Bartman incident. There was some focus on Bill Buckner, serving the role of the acquitted scapegoat, but, otherwise, it was basically all Bartman.

My major gripe with the film is that it covered very little new ground. The majority of it was a re-telling of the facts, which most sports fans have to be well-versed in by now. There were some new video angles and interviews with people around Bartman, but it's not like any of that cast a new light on what happened.

The film did a good job illustrating mob mentality of the fans and the media, and then the media perpetuating it to this very day. I don't think that's what the director was after though.

I also don't think the Buckner comparison was very apt. Buckner was a player, who got paid to field ground balls, and allowed the winning run to score. Bartman was a fan, who maybe got in the way on a foul ball, but wasn't able to actively affect the game. Huge difference.

Late in the film there were some more intriguing discussion about the history of scapegoats, and that fans didn't want to blame their heroes but Bartman fit the look of the stereotypical scapegoat. I think that was more was the director was going for, but it only got 15 minutes at the end.

Rocky Soprano
10-05-2011, 01:42 PM
The only person who didn't come across as a big-time ******* in the whole piece was the woman who worked in Security for the Cubs. She made sure that Bartman was able to get out of the area safely after the incident. You could still see that what happened that night still affects her today.

It made me wonder what would have happened if ANYBODY (any of the players, Dusty Baker, Hendry or Trib brass) had stood up in the post-game press conference and said, "Look, what happened in the 8th inning tonight had nothing to do with this fan, we still had chances to end the inning and win the game. It just didn't work out that way. We need to put this behind us and concentrate on winning game 7."

It is much easier to blame a damn curse or make up a new one.

Soxman24
10-05-2011, 02:52 PM
I'll admit I watched Catching Hell the other night. For some reason I was under the impression it would be a broad look at the concept of scapegoats in sports rather than strictly focusing on the Bartman incident. There was some focus on Bill Buckner, serving the role of the acquitted scapegoat, but, otherwise, it was basically all Bartman.

My major gripe with the film is that it covered very little new ground. The majority of it was a re-telling of the facts, which most sports fans have to be well-versed in by now. There were some new video angles and interviews with people around Bartman, but it's not like any of that cast a new light on what happened.

The film did a good job illustrating mob mentality of the fans and the media, and then the media perpetuating it to this very day. I don't think that's what the director was after though.

I also don't think the Buckner comparison was very apt. Buckner was a player, who got paid to field ground balls, and allowed the winning run to score. Bartman was a fan, who maybe got in the way on a foul ball, but wasn't able to actively affect the game. Huge difference.

Late in the film there were some more intriguing discussion about the history of scapegoats, and that fans didn't want to blame their heroes but Bartman fit the look of the stereotypical scapegoat. I think that was more was the director was going for, but it only got 15 minutes at the end.


I was thinking that as well. I think until Steve comes out and talks that is all you are going to get out of a story regarding the incident eight years after the fact. But seriously, I don't blame him for not wanting to talk with anyone regarding what happened, I feel bad for the guy.

doublem23
10-05-2011, 03:59 PM
I was thinking that as well. I think until Steve comes out and talks that is all you are going to get out of a story regarding the incident eight years after the fact. But seriously, I don't blame him for not wanting to talk with anyone regarding what happened, I feel bad for the guy.

It's actually pretty crazy that this day in age he's been able to keep an almost nonexistant profile.

Soxman24
10-05-2011, 05:16 PM
It's actually pretty crazy that this day in age he's been able to keep an almost nonexistant profile.


All while still residing in the Chicago area.

SBSoxFan
10-06-2011, 11:13 PM
I'll admit I watched Catching Hell the other night. For some reason I was under the impression it would be a broad look at the concept of scapegoats in sports rather than strictly focusing on the Bartman incident. There was some focus on Bill Buckner, serving the role of the acquitted scapegoat, but, otherwise, it was basically all Bartman.

My major gripe with the film is that it covered very little new ground. The majority of it was a re-telling of the facts, which most sports fans have to be well-versed in by now. There were some new video angles and interviews with people around Bartman, but it's not like any of that cast a new light on what happened.

The film did a good job illustrating mob mentality of the fans and the media, and then the media perpetuating it to this very day. I don't think that's what the director was after though.

I also don't think the Buckner comparison was very apt. Buckner was a player, who got paid to field ground balls, and allowed the winning run to score. Bartman was a fan, who maybe got in the way on a foul ball, but wasn't able to actively affect the game. Huge difference.

Late in the film there were some more intriguing discussion about the history of scapegoats, and that fans didn't want to blame their heroes but Bartman fit the look of the stereotypical scapegoat. I think that was more was the director was going for, but it only got 15 minutes at the end.

Thank you.

g0g0
10-07-2011, 08:26 AM
I also don't think the Buckner comparison was very apt. Buckner was a player, who got paid to field ground balls, and allowed the winning run to score. Bartman was a fan, who maybe got in the way on a foul ball, but wasn't able to actively affect the game. Huge difference.

Late in the film there were some more intriguing discussion about the history of scapegoats, and that fans didn't want to blame their heroes but Bartman fit the look of the stereotypical scapegoat. I think that was more was the director was going for, but it only got 15 minutes at the end.

Plus it was the same situation; It was Game 6 and Boston didn't lose the series on that one play. They were up in Game 7 and blew it. Yet he became a scapegoat for it. If anything the manager should have gotten the blame and Buckner had been replaced in previous games for defensive reasons.

PatK
10-07-2011, 11:58 AM
Well, he did have to assume another identity just to survive that night. And those who were glad to see the Cubs lose might even consider him a hero, of sorts. :tongue:

BRAVO!!!

:worship:

AZChiSoxFan
10-07-2011, 12:06 PM
One of the things about "catching Hell" that really bothered me is that the show starts with the assumption that Alou would have easily caught the ball, and moves on from that viewpoint.

In all these years, I have yet to see an angle of the play that backs up that assumption.

WhiteSox5187
10-07-2011, 12:45 PM
One of the things about "catching Hell" that really bothered me is that the show starts with the assumption that Alou would have easily caught the ball, and moves on from that viewpoint.

In all these years, I have yet to see an angle of the play that backs up that assumption.

They did show an angle where they removed everyone from the crowd so it was just Alou and the ball and he WAS right under it but two things occurred to me:
1. It seemed like his jump was already at its peak and the ball was still not quite at his glove, that would have hurt.

2. His glove appeared to be closed already.

Another note, the scene of Bartman being escorted out were just horrifying. Very scary.

Dan H
10-08-2011, 08:15 AM
They did show an angle where they removed everyone from the crowd so it was just Alou and the ball and he WAS right under it but two things occurred to me:
1. It seemed like his jump was already at its peak and the ball was still not quite at his glove, that would have hurt.

2. His glove appeared to be closed already.

Another note, the scene of Bartman being escorted out were just horrifying. Very scary.

You are right about how scary the situation and I actually think that is the biggest lesson we have to take from this. We fans get caught up in a lot of emotion. Losing control is not something we should ever condone and Cub fans can't just point to other dumb things fans have done to excuse this. There was no excuse for this.


One other telling scene: A woman was part of the Cub security team was in near tears when describing Bartman. She basically said he was a real gentleman. He certainly didn't deserve the wrath of Cub fans and idiots like Tony Kornheiser. And he certainly doesn't deserve to be a scapegoat. The Cubs are pathetic with or without him.

jdm2662
10-08-2011, 01:40 PM
Do you know what was lost in this pathetic situation? The fact that the Marlins were damn good themselves and McKeon badly out managed Dusty in the series. People also seem to forget the Cubs were barely over .500 when September rolled around. They got hot at the right time. To me, it's a shame the Marlins don't get enough credit for their run.

thomas35forever
10-17-2011, 10:38 PM
Just watched it on demand tonight and although I've said this before, I think it's worth repeating that I feel really bad for Bartman. His life was ruined because a few people let their emotions get the best of them and everyone else followed suit. A part of me hopes the Cubs win the World Series one day so he can come out of hiding and throw out the first pitch at Wrigley on Opening Day a la Buckner at Fenway a few years ago.

Fenway
10-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Just watched it on demand tonight and although I've said this before, I think it's worth repeating that I feel really bad for Bartman. His life was ruined because a few people let their emotions get the best of them and everyone else followed suit. A part of me hopes the Cubs win the World Series one day so he can come out of hiding and throw out the first pitch at Wrigley on Opening Day a la Buckner at Fenway a few years ago.

I just watched it On Demand as well.

I had heard that the NBC locker room footage at Shea in 1986 existed but had never seen it until now. I was at Shea and I remember the scoreboard flashing 'Congratulations World Champion Red Sox' and thinking not yet - not yet.

Catcher Rich Gedman was the real goat and he will be the first to admit it - he should have stopped that pitch. Being from Massachusetts Gedman took it very hard and he admits he drank himself out of baseball.

He has now been sober for over 10 years and working as a minor league coach for Boston.

I can tell you for a fact that Red Sox fans never blamed Buckner.

After the game 7 loss in 1986, the city still had a rally for the AL Champs and Buckner got the biggest cheer.

In 1990 when he made the roster after showing up in Winter Haven as a walk on and making the roster, he again got the biggest ovation on opening day at Fenway.

What the Chicago media ( especially the Sun-Times ) did to Bartman was horrific. To tell fans where he lived and worked was something I don't even think the NY Post would have done.

http://ryereflections.org/servlet/pluto?state=30303470616765303037576562506167653030 32696430303436343833%5D

SOXPHILE
10-18-2011, 04:13 PM
Just watched it on demand tonight and although I've said this before, I think it's worth repeating that I feel really bad for Bartman. His life was ruined because a few people let their emotions get the best of them and everyone else followed suit. A part of me hopes the Cubs win the World Series one day so he can come out of hiding and throw out the first pitch at Wrigley on Opening Day a la Buckner at Fenway a few years ago.

I feel bad for the guy, but no way. No way do I hope the Cubs ever even win a pennant, let alone a World Series. I want it to go on and on and on. The way those thousands of people acted only reinforces that feeling. 104 years. 120 years. 150 years. While at the same time, the Sox reel off at least a few more championships. I want the Cubs to always fail as spectacularly and miserably as possible. I want them regulated to nothing more than an afterthought in the sports world.

HomeFish
10-18-2011, 04:15 PM
I feel bad for the guy, but no way. No way do I hope the Cubs ever even win a pennant, let alone a World Series. I want it to go on and on and on. The way those thousands of people acted only reinforces that feeling. 104 years. 120 years. 150 years. While at the same time, the Sox reel off at least a few more championships. I want the Cubs to always fail as spectacularly and miserably as possible. I want them regulated to nothing more than an afterthought in the sports world.

Agreed. I'd be OK with Bartman winning an office league softball championship or something, if that would make him feel better.

slavko
10-18-2011, 09:41 PM
I've changed my mind about the play. Alou would have made the catch. 99% certain.

Madvora
10-19-2011, 10:53 AM
I can tell you for a fact that Red Sox fans never blamed Buckner.

Really, never?
Bucker commented on all the **** he took. Where'd he get that crazy idea?

Fenway
10-19-2011, 11:14 AM
Really, never?
Bucker commented on all the **** he took. Where'd he get that crazy idea?

He talks about it.
http://www.patriotledger.com/sports/x984142840/For-Buckner-a-lot-of-time-helps-heal-the-wound-of-1986

Of course there were some idiot fans.

There was one very bad incident in Pawtucket.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2615471

A whole generation of fans grew up just seeing 'the clip' and hearing Scully's call and anger festered.

"There's a little roller up along first, behind the bag! It gets through Buckner! Here comes Knight and the Mets win it!"

russ99
10-19-2011, 11:16 AM
I've changed my mind about the play. Alou would have made the catch. 99% certain.

No way. Had Bartman held back at least 2 other fans would have done the same thing.

Saracen
10-19-2011, 11:20 AM
I can tell you for a fact that Red Sox fans never blamed Buckner.
I lived in Boston from 87-91 and every fan I talked to sure as heck blamed him. Not sure where you get that.

SI1020
10-19-2011, 01:02 PM
I could be wrong but it seems to me the anger directed at Bartman was immediate and intense. OTOH it seems to me at least that the Buckner situation took awhile, even months and years to fester. I attribute that to the 24/7 headline and scandal driven sports reporting that was just coming of age then thanks to cable networks. To "blame" either one of them for their respective teams demise is beyond ridiculous in my view. Prior lost his cool, Dusty lost his wits, Alex Gonzalez booted a ground ball. That's just for starters. On the Boston side of things I'm not even going to try to get into all the other factors that were more important than Buckner booting a ground ball in a tie game.

C-Dawg
10-19-2011, 01:37 PM
No way. Had Bartman held back at least 2 other fans would have done the same thing.

That guy with the gray jacket probably would have gotten it; he was trying harder than anybody including Bartman.

ZombieRob
10-19-2011, 01:45 PM
The fact that this guy is still relevant is amazing.

Fenway
10-19-2011, 02:02 PM
I lived in Boston from 87-91 and every fan I talked to sure as heck blamed him. Not sure where you get that.

My hard core group of friends have always pointed the finger at John McNamara.

Dave Stapelton should have been playing first in the 10th but Mac wanted Buckner out there to celebrate.

BUT all you have to do is look at the NINTH inning. Calvin Schiraldi by some miracle ( and Davy Johnson's boneheaded managing ) survived the 9th. He NEVER should have come back in the 10th.

Schiraldi was not a mystery to the Mets, they knew him as he came up in their system. I believe that if Stanley had pitched the 10th clean Boston would have won.

Baseball goats are usually media creations.

Fred Snodgrass made an error in the 1912 World Series that helped the Red Sox to win. The man went on to be a well known banker and mayor of his hometown of Oxnard, California.

But when he died in 1974 - how does the NY Times remember him?

Hendu
11-06-2011, 12:29 PM
Watched the documentary last night. The one thing that usually gets overlooked is Bartman was there with two friends who never stood up for him or even tried to talk to him when things were getting ugly...but also ditched him as soon as they were escorted out. Some friends.

TommyJohn
11-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Watched the documentary last night. The one thing that usually gets overlooked is Bartman was there with two friends who never stood up for him or even tried to talk to him when things were getting ugly...but also ditched him as soon as they were escorted out. Some friends.

I noticed that too. He tried to get a hold of them later that night but couldn't.

StillMissOzzie
11-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Watched the documentary last night. The one thing that usually gets overlooked is Bartman was there with two friends who never stood up for him or even tried to talk to him when things were getting ugly...but also ditched him as soon as they were escorted out. Some friends.

Not to mention sold the ball for over $100,000 and retained HIS anonymity.

SMO
:gulp:

TommyJohn
11-06-2011, 03:51 PM
Not to mention sold the ball for over $100,000 and retained HIS anonymity.

SMO
:gulp:

That was a different guy that did that.

manders_01
11-06-2011, 04:47 PM
Does anyone know how old Bartman is? I was always under the impression that he was in his very early 20's in '03 but the first article in this thread seemed to indicate that he owned a home and had a family then. I know that's possible for someone in their early 20's but not typical.

SOXPHILE
11-06-2011, 05:02 PM
Does anyone know how old Bartman is? I was always under the impression that he was in his very early 20's in '03 but the first article in this thread seemed to indicate that he owned a home and had a family then. I know that's possible for someone in their early 20's but not typical.

I think he was about 25 or 26 at the time because he was at Notre Dame High School the same time as my cousin, who graduated in 1996.

manders_01
11-06-2011, 05:07 PM
I think he was about 25 or 26 at the time because he was at Notre Dame High School the same time as my cousin, who graduated in 1996.

Thank you. :smile:

I should note that while I think this guy is super stand up, if I was in the same position I don't know that I would handle myself the same and that he deserves all the privacy he requests, I'm super curious to know what he looks like now. :redface:

C-Dawg
11-07-2011, 06:21 AM
Watched the documentary last night. The one thing that usually gets overlooked is Bartman was there with two friends who never stood up for him or even tried to talk to him when things were getting ugly...but also ditched him as soon as they were escorted out. Some friends.

Which is weird because for years we were led to believe that Bartman was there alone. The ESPN article where the guy follows Steve to work, for example, mentions he was there alone (if my memory is correct).

cards press box
11-09-2011, 03:24 AM
Watched the documentary last night. The one thing that usually gets overlooked is Bartman was there with two friends who never stood up for him or even tried to talk to him when things were getting ugly...but also ditched him as soon as they were escorted out. Some friends.

Man, I could not agree more. I guess the old saying is true: you really don't know who your friends are until the bullets start flying.