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illini81887
09-26-2011, 06:42 PM
“I think it’s one of the biggest farces I’ve ever seen in baseball,” Harrelson said about Beane’s computerized baseball strategy. “I said at the time it’s going to get a lot of managers fired, and it has.”


Stone: “When I take a look at all the attention that Billy happens to be getting now, I think the way he has gone about sabermetrics, number one, he didn’t invent it. Number two, he didn’t refine it. And number three, I like my winners to actually have won something.”



http://www.csnchicago.com/09/26/11/Sox-Drawer-Hawk--Stone-rip-Beane-Moneyba/landing_soxdrawer_v3.html?blockID=567770&feedID=661

#1swisher
09-26-2011, 06:45 PM
I guess they won't be seeing the movie? That's two more votes for NO in the poll.:redneck

kevingrt
09-26-2011, 06:45 PM
Just read the article and it's safe to say that Stone Pony and Hawk held nothing back in their interviews with Garfien. Good stuff to read.

DirtySox
09-26-2011, 06:55 PM
Stone comes across knowledgeable and intelligent on the topic. Hawk once again makes himself sound the moronic doofus we all know he is.

Viva Medias B's
09-26-2011, 07:01 PM
Hawk has always had it in for Beane.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2011, 07:12 PM
Can't say I disagree with what Steve said.

Lip

jdm2662
09-26-2011, 07:37 PM
Hawk has always had it in for Beane.

Since Hawk is the mouth piece for the Sox, anything bad sad about them, he gets pissy. However, if Moneyball really tried to protray Williams as a complete fool, I can't blame Hawk for these feelings. Hell, Billy Beane is one of the most overrated GMs ever.

Do we remember when there were Billy Beane worshipers on this site? Whatever happened to them??

Daver
09-26-2011, 07:40 PM
Do we remember when there were Billy Beane worshipers on this site? Whatever happened to them??


Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies.

asindc
09-26-2011, 07:43 PM
Since Hawk is the mouth piece for the Sox, anything bad sad about them, he gets pissy. However, if Moneyball really tried to protray Williams as a complete fool, I can't blame Hawk for these feelings. Hell, Billy Beane is one of the most overrated GMs ever.

Do we remember when there were Billy Beane worshipers on this site? Whatever happened to them??

Some of them got banned (I hope I'm not speaking out of turn about something that is publicly known among WSIers who were around at the time) and never came back, for whatever reason.

asindc
09-26-2011, 07:46 PM
“I think it’s one of the biggest farces I’ve ever seen in baseball,” Harrelson said about Beane’s computerized baseball strategy. “I said at the time it’s going to get a lot of managers fired, and it has.”


Stone: “When I take a look at all the attention that Billy happens to be getting now, I think the way he has gone about sabermetrics, number one, he didn’t invent it. Number two, he didn’t refine it. And number three, I like my winners to actually have won something.”


http://www.csnchicago.com/09/26/11/Sox-Drawer-Hawk--Stone-rip-Beane-Moneyba/landing_soxdrawer_v3.html?blockID=567770&feedID=661


Stoney nails it rather succinctly. Two things: 1) The sabermetric fans spoken of in the post above were rather vociferous in their defense of Adam Dunn the player, heatedly at times noting that Ks don't matter and that his batting approach would work in any lineup; 2) Beane himself said "My **** does not work in the playoffs." Yeah, he's a genius.

soxfanatlanta
09-26-2011, 08:14 PM
“I think it’s one of the biggest farces I’ve ever seen in baseball,” Harrelson said about Beane’s computerized baseball strategy. “I said at the time it’s going to get a lot of managers fired, and it has.”


Stone: “When I take a look at all the attention that Billy happens to be getting now, I think the way he has gone about sabermetrics, number one, he didn’t invent it. Number two, he didn’t refine it. And number three, I like my winners to actually have won something.”



http://www.csnchicago.com/09/26/11/Sox-Drawer-Hawk--Stone-rip-Beane-Moneyba/landing_soxdrawer_v3.html?blockID=567770&feedID=661


Not defending BB, but Stone and Hawk are sounding like true armchair quarterbacks; neither television announcer has done any better.

TheOldRoman
09-26-2011, 08:28 PM
Not defending BB, but Stone and Hawk are sounding like true armchair quarterbacks; neither television announcer has done any better.Fine, but by that line of thinking, we aren't allowed to comment on the topic, either.

It isn't just that Beane supposedly did something nobody else had, it's that he had a book written fellating him and praising his genius, all while portraying Kenny Williams as a buffoon because he gave up Chad ****ing Bradford. Then, a legion of Beane's lemming popped up praising him at every turn. Of course, genius Beane's teams have done Jack **** in the playoffs, while Williams has won a world series. People also fail to recognize how far Kenny went out on a limb to make the 2005 team. He bucked conventional wisdom and was torn to shreds by pretty much everybody for trading Lee for Pods. He took a risk and did it his way, and I believe that he would have been fired had that team failed. Regardless, Beane is still a genius but KW is portrayed as a buffoon who supposedly doesn't understand a team can outright force you to take a player you claim on waivers.

Mohoney
09-26-2011, 09:29 PM
With Hawk's track record as a GM, it's best that he sit a few plays out.

HomeFish
09-26-2011, 09:44 PM
Nobody who was following the White Sox in the early 2000's has anything good to say about the Oakland A's. That organization killed us on and off the field.

DSpivack
09-26-2011, 09:44 PM
Nobody who was following the White Sox in the early 2000's has anything good to say about the Oakland A's. That organization killed us on and off the field.

And look at who won a World Series and who didn't. Who got the last laugh?

johnnyg83
09-26-2011, 10:17 PM
And look at who won a World Series and who didn't. Who got the last laugh?

Point taken. But the hot team usually wins the series, the 11-1 Sox included ... I'm still a sabermatics guy, but I know that it can't be ALL that you use for analysis, but it has to be a good portion.

Anyone using hindsight to blame Sabermatics for the Dunn signing and subsequent crap year are revisionists. No one could have predicted .163.

DSpivack
09-26-2011, 10:19 PM
Point taken. But the hot team usually wins the series, the 11-1 Sox included ... I'm still a sabermatics guy, but I know that it can't be ALL that you use for analysis, but it has to be a good portion.

Anyone using hindsight to blame Sabermatics for the Dunn signing and subsequent crap year are revisionists. No one could have predicted .163.

I think it's a tool to use, sure.

But all the praise for Beane? Didn't he inherit a team with Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Tejada and Chavez?

Tragg
09-26-2011, 10:24 PM
Fine, but by that line of thinking, we aren't allowed to comment on the topic, either.

It isn't just that Beane supposedly did something nobody else had, it's that he had a book written fellating him and praising his genius, all while portraying Kenny Williams as a buffoon because he gave up Chad ****ing Bradford. Then, a legion of Beane's lemming popped up praising him at every turn. Of course, genius Beane's teams have done Jack **** in the playoffs, while Williams has won a world series. People also fail to recognize how far Kenny went out on a limb to make the 2005 team. He bucked conventional wisdom and was torn to shreds by pretty much everybody for trading Lee for Pods. He took a risk and did it his way, and I believe that he would have been fired had that team failed. Regardless, Beane is still a genius but KW is portrayed as a buffoon who supposedly doesn't understand a team can outright force you to take a player you claim on waivers.
That's how I see it...it hyperbolized the greatness of Beane, took unnecessary cheap shots at Ken Williams, and missed the real reason for the As success: a superior set of starting pitchers. Their success wasn't Scott Hadelberg.

johnnyg83
09-26-2011, 10:28 PM
I think it's a tool to use, sure.

But all the praise for Beane? Didn't he inherit a team with Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Tejada and Chavez?

Indeed.

TheOldRoman
09-26-2011, 10:47 PM
That's how I see it...it hyperbolized the greatness of Beane, took unnecessary cheap shots at Ken Williams, and missed the real reason for the As success: a superior set of starting pitchers. Their success wasn't Scott Hadelberg.Well, that and steroids.

Tragg
09-26-2011, 10:49 PM
Well, that and steroids.
No, no no..you miss the new moneyball: how to predict injuries and take advantage of such market inefficiencies. That's what he missed last go round.

TheOldRoman
09-26-2011, 10:52 PM
No, no no..you miss the new moneyball: how to predict injuries and take advantage of such market inefficiencies. That's what he missed last go round.The funniest part for me is that he traded Andre Eithier for MILTON ****ing BRADLEY and gave up Carlos Gonzalez for a rental of Matt Holliday in a year he wasn't even competing. Either of those trades are FAR worse than anything Williams has done.

Mohoney
09-26-2011, 11:09 PM
The funniest part for me is that he traded Andre Eithier for MILTON ****ing BRADLEY and gave up Carlos Gonzalez for a rental of Matt Holliday in a year he wasn't even competing. Either of those trades are FAR worse than anything Williams has done.

Kenny's definitely a better GM, no doubt. However, Hawk criticizing Beane is definitely chucking stones from a glass house.

Dauis
09-27-2011, 02:40 AM
Neither one of them should be the GM of the White Sox. At least if you're gonna turn the farm system into the worst in the majors you should at least build a competitive--let alone winning--team. Didn't happen this year, and can anyone honestly say the Sox are anything better than an 85-90 win team next year?

hawkjt
09-27-2011, 02:53 AM
Bernstein of B & B is in love with Fangraphs numbers. Just flatly declares players busts or great based on those numbers. He loved Adam Dunn,he celebrated the signing of Adam Dunn. He loved Chone Figgins,and screamed at the Sox to sign him as a F/A...he signed with Seattle(4 years 32 million) and has been absolutely horrible. But he looked great in those fangraph numbers,just like Dunn. Meanwhile he calls Juan Pierre and Scotty Pods the worst hitters in baseball...but they were much better and cheaper than Figgins.

Numbers lie.

Nelson Foxtrot
09-27-2011, 03:01 AM
Stone is right about the first two points, especially since he played for Earl Weaver who meticulously studied stats, hated bunting except with players like Belanger who were terrible hitters, played for the three-run homer, and felt that OBP and SLG were far more important than BA. I'm surprised by his third point, since Weaver went his last twelve years without winning a title before his first retirement. Joe Altobelli won the WS for the O's the next year. I doubt anybody has ever considered Altobelli a better manager than Weaver.

Billy Beane has made some terrible deals in recent years. In addition to what TheOldRoman mentioned, one thing that comes to mind is giving Ben Sheets (who he had bashed in Moneyball) $10 million last season, resulting in only 20 unspectacular starts. Things like that make me wonder if he was really the brains of the operation, since these are the most anti-Moneyball moves imaginable.

I think the Moneyball approach worked in 2002, which is a huge part of the story. The A's lost their star hitter Jason Giambi, closer Jason Isringhausen, and guys like Johnny Damon (who had a down year, but hit over .400 in the postseason). Chavez, Tejada, and three great pitchers will put you in contention, but it takes a lot more to set an AL-record 20 straight wins and tie the Yankees with 103 wins, despite having 1/3rd the salary. Plus the A's had a much tougher division, with the 99 win Angels and 93 win Mariners. They were well-built for October as well, with their "Big Three." They did choke in the playoffs, mostly due to two bad starts by Hudson and an epic meltdown by Billy Koch. I think that was the lost playoff series they definitely should have won during the Beane years.

Ultimately, I think the key is that the A's were competitive year after year with such salary constraints, even in 2006 without Tejada, Hudson, and Mulder. That's really all one can evaluate. There's no way to know if other GMs like Epstein, Cashman, or even KW would have done as well in Beane's shoes, or he in theirs.

asindc
09-27-2011, 08:20 AM
Stoney nails it rather succinctly. Two things: 1) The sabermetric fans spoken of in the post above were rather vociferous in their defense of Adam Dunn the player, heatedly at times noting that Ks don't matter and that his batting approach would work in any lineup; 2) Beane himself said "My **** does not work in the playoffs." Yeah, he's a genius.


Point taken. But the hot team usually wins the series, the 11-1 Sox included ... I'm still a sabermatics guy, but I know that it can't be ALL that you use for analysis, but it has to be a good portion.

Anyone using hindsight to blame Sabermatics for the Dunn signing and subsequent crap year are revisionists. No one could have predicted .163.

Since my post is the only one in this thread that references Dunn, I'll respond to the bolded part of your post. That was not the point I made.

34 Inch Stick
09-27-2011, 12:31 PM
The book was disturbing in the author's detailed and continuous account of Beane's handsome features and athletic build.