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sox230
09-26-2011, 12:02 AM
I was listening to the Score a couple days ago and Mully or Hanley quoted Kenny saying that Ozzie's future is up to Jerry and that Jerry said Ozzie's status is up to Kenny. This got me thinking: Why doesn't JR take more of the heat?

A lot of the problems that the White Sox organization currently faces, such as its manager, GM, scouting and player development has a direct correlation to a lack of accountability. I know that Lip has brought up the "A" word several times this year and I couldn't agree more. Everyone has been asking why coaches and management haven't been held accountable for this season and I can think of two reasons: a lack of accountability, and the lack of clearly defined roles. Both of these problems are related to one another can be directly traced back to JR.

One of the most important responsibilities of the owner or CEO of any business is to have clearly defined roles for all of its employees. There is a clear omission of this with the White Sox. Two obvious examples that come to mind are the quote I heard on the Score and the Alex Rios situation. I remember when Kenny came out publicly and said that Rios was going to be benched, and then Ozzie continued to play him pretty regularly. It should be Jerry's responsibility to designate the GM or (preferably) the manager, with making moves such as these. Kenny and Ozzie must know what they can control and what they are responsible for. In my opinion, the cloudy gray area which exists with their roles has been a big contributor to their power struggles within the organization and their dislike of one another. Everyone seems to blame this on both of their immaturity. I blame this on Jerry not telling them what they are responsible for.

I believe the lack of clearly defined roles directly leads to a lack of accountability, and additionally leads to the perception that the organization does not demand excellence and a winning culture. I believe that nobody, Kenny, Ozzie, nor Jerry for that matter really know who is responsible for making personnel decision, as evidenced by my two previous examples, whether it comes to players, scouting, coaches or management. This leads to a lack of accountability for failures and no proactive decision-making in the hopes to improve the product as soon as possible. This, in turn, leads to the perception that the White Sox do not care about winning, which obviously angers fans like you and I.

So I ask you: Why doesn't Jerry get more of the blame? Is it because he is the boss and the fans and media have absolutely no influence on getting a new owner? It has taken me the entire year of pathetic baseball to completely figure this out. I'm not saying Jerry isn't a diehard Sox fan or has lots of baseball knowledge. However, I firmly believe that a great deal of the happenings this year, as well as our long futility of player development/scouting/drafting, can be directly affiliated with JR and his lack of ownership skills.

If you have made it through my entire rant, here's to you!!!:drunken:

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2011, 12:09 AM
Perhaps because he's the best owner in Chicago sports in the lifetime of anyone on this board?

sox230
09-26-2011, 12:11 AM
No doubt he's a great basketball owner. Baseball? I'm not so sure. Taking the Sox off of standard TV and on to cable was not the wisest of moves. Lest we forget how we were this close from moving to St. Pete in the late '80's?

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2011, 12:17 AM
No doubt he's a great basketball owner. Baseball? I'm not so sure. Taking the Sox off of standard TV and on to cable was not the wisest of moves. Lest we forget how we were this close from moving to St. Pete in the late '80's?The TV move was a serious mistake, no doubt, but that was mostly Einhorn.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Practically every owner in my lifetime has looked into moving the team, including the sainted Bill Veeck. They didn't get moved, and for all you or I know it was a bluff.

LITTLE NELL
09-26-2011, 05:09 AM
I'm not that sure he is a great basketball owner.
How many championships does he win without MJ...... Zero
Timing was everything as Jordan was going into his second year when JR bought the team. So they add Pippen, Paxson, Grant, Cartright and a few others and they have a 3-peat. Jordan tries baseball for 2 years and the Bulls play well but no cigar. Jordan comes back and another 3-peat. Jordan goes to Washington and no championships since.

dickallen15
09-26-2011, 05:29 AM
I'm not that sure he is a great basketball owner.
How many championships does he win without MJ...... Zero
Timing was everything as Jordan was going into his second year when JR bought the team. So they add Pippen, Paxson, Grant, Cartright and a few others and they have a 3-peat. Jordan tries baseball for 2 years and the Bulls play well but no cigar. Jordan comes back and another 3-peat. Jordan goes to Washington and no championships since.

There is something to this. After Jordan left, the Bulls had one of the worst 4-6 years stretches in NBA history. If they are going to call JR the best owner, don't you have to call Jerry Krause the best GM? The team was purchased with Jordan on the roster.

DumpJerry
09-26-2011, 07:05 AM
His last name is more difficult to spell correctly than "Ozzie," "Kenny," "Dunn," or "Rios."

Boondock Saint
09-26-2011, 07:30 AM
There is something to this. After Jordan left, the Bulls had one of the worst 4-6 years stretches in NBA history. If they are going to call JR the best owner, don't you have to call Jerry Krause the best GM? The team was purchased with Jordan on the roster.

1) The 93-94 Bulls won 55 games (6th best record in the NBA) without Jordan, and were a game away from the conference finals.

2) Krause was a great GM. Without Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and all of the other role players he brought in, the Bulls don't win 6 titles.

doublem23
09-26-2011, 07:35 AM
Probably because this isn't his fault? :dunno:

SI1020
09-26-2011, 07:38 AM
Perhaps because he's the best owner in Chicago sports in the lifetime of anyone on this board?An emphatic no.

Rocky Soprano
09-26-2011, 08:03 AM
An emphatic no.

:?:

Who in the hell is better?

Johnny Mostil
09-26-2011, 08:05 AM
:?:

Who in the hell is better?

Halas was in the lifetime of at least some posters on this board, no?

But I agree with the original point that Reinsdorf's seven championships are enough to deflect any criticism of him.

Rocky Soprano
09-26-2011, 08:12 AM
Halas was in the lifetime of at least some posters on this board, no?

But I agree with the original point that Reinsdorf's seven championships are enough to deflect any criticism of him.

1 Superbowl does not even come close.

DumpJerry
09-26-2011, 08:23 AM
1 Superbowl does not even come close.
You do realize Halas was six feet under by the time 1985 rolled around?

Fenway
09-26-2011, 08:40 AM
Probably because this isn't his fault? :dunno:

He signs the checks and allowed the situation to get where it is today.

The Bulls became what they are because Stu Inman made a miscalculation picking Sam Bowie over MJ.

JR is disliked nationally as he is seen as the owner most responsible for the 1994 MLB season being wiped out.

He likes to take credit for the UC being one of the best of the new arenas but the reality is that was because of Dollar Bill. The only mistake they made with the arena was not moving the organ which would have required rebuilding the massive pipe system.

But he is considered a 'good' owner when compared to the Cubs and Bears situations.

The man is loyal to a fault - the best example is Ken Harrelson. The story I have heard was that Don Drysdale somehow convinced JR that Hawk was a baseball genius. OK it didn't work and Hawk went to NY to broadcast the Yankees. When he was fired there JR took him back. This would be like the Lions making Matt Millen their radio guy.

I don't think you will see a rebuilding situation with the Sox simply because JR wants to win again. Now Bill Madden in the NY Daily News has been hinting JR may cash out with Rocky Wirtz being the likely buyer. But that may only be his share - the Einhorn family may take control as Eddie's daughter is now a top MLB exec.

I know how much JR wants to win - back in 2005 I saw how happy he was at Fenway Park on the field after they knocked the Red Sox off.

We are starting to see the same dynamic here in Boston. Somehow Francona is being blamed for Boston's collapse when most fans are pointing at Epstein. John Henry hasn't said a word...yet.

My own hunch is that JR will ask Ozzie one question. Will you be happier in Miami or Chicago? He might also remind Ozzie that Loria does not reward loyalty. (see Felipe Alou and Joe Giradi)

I think we will know by Friday morning.

doublem23
09-26-2011, 08:53 AM
That is all stupid garbage. JR's not the one on the field striking out 250 times per season. He's not the one making claims on lazy, overpaid outfielders. He's not the one making idiotic managerial decisions.

A) I don't give a **** what people nationally think of JR over something that happened 20 years ago. Yeah, there was a strike, GET THE **** OVER IT, especially considering the only fans who suffered more from the 1994 strike than us are the 7 baseball fans left in Montreal.

B) The "checks he's signing" that have let this situation "get to where it is" are the largest ****ing payroll in team history. He's "loyal to a fault?" What kind of bull**** is that? Please tell me what teams are successful when you're owner is a hair-triggered maniac? Isn't that the Jeffrey Loria Style of Management? How's that working out in Florida for Marlin fans?

C) HEY GREAT, let's talk about how this relates to the Red Sox!!! THANKS AGAIN for your winning contributions to our White Sox discussions!! Isn't time now you should give someone horrendous advice about getting around on the CTA?

Noneck
09-26-2011, 08:56 AM
His legacy will always be tied to the Jordan years Bulls. The main reason he is considered the so called best owner in Chicago is because of these Jordan championships and of course the 1 baseball championship that took so long to attain. Why he gets a slide for the mess that has been created with the Sox is probably because he has deflected all that has happened on his GM and manager. This is not to say that the GM and manager are not also at fault but the ultimate decision maker is the one at the top and he was directly involved in decisions that adversely affected this team. Finally being one of the most powerful owners in sports, I bet has something to do with him not getting bad ink currently.

Rocky Soprano
09-26-2011, 08:56 AM
You do realize Halas was six feet under by the time 1985 rolled around?

:redface:

Its Monday morning...

SOXSINCE'70
09-26-2011, 08:57 AM
:sellreinsy

Johnny Mostil
09-26-2011, 09:02 AM
:redface:

Its Monday morning...

Just to be clear: part of my original point, perhaps too subtle, was that I was born in 1963, the year the Bears won their eighth NFL championship under George Halas. (Some, like the late Bill Gleason, as I recall, even give Halas partial credit for launching the rebuilding of the team that culminated in the Super Bowl XX championship. I'll leave that aside, given, as noted, Halas was dead by 1985.) Halas left an impact on pro football that Reinsdorf won't leave on baseball or basketball.

That said, again, I agree with the original point (and others) here: Reinsdorf's seven championships (understandably) deflect a lot of blame (for a situation in which others bear more responsibility anyway).

hi im skot
09-26-2011, 09:13 AM
I'm not that sure he is a great basketball owner.
How many championships does he win without MJ...... Zero
Timing was everything as Jordan was going into his second year when JR bought the team. So they add Pippen, Paxson, Grant, Cartright and a few others and they have a 3-peat. Jordan tries baseball for 2 years and the Bulls play well but no cigar. Jordan comes back and another 3-peat. Jordan goes to Washington and no championships since.

1) The 93-94 Bulls won 55 games (6th best record in the NBA) without Jordan, and were a game away from the conference finals.

Yep. People forget that the Bulls were a Hue Hollins call away from possibly doing some real damage. I guarantee there's no one more upset about that than Scottie Pippen, who finally had a chance to show he could lead a team without MJ in the picture.

Oh, and Little Nell - whether you intended to or not, you sort of discounted your own point by showing how much support Jordan needed to get to the promised land. MJ is the greatest of all time, but he needed the supporting cast, as you illustrated.

asindc
09-26-2011, 09:21 AM
I was listening to the Score a couple days ago and Mully or Hanley quoted Kenny saying that Ozzie's future is up to Jerry and that Jerry said Ozzie's status is up to Kenny. This got me thinking: Why doesn't JR take more of the heat?

A lot of the problems that the White Sox organization currently faces, such as its manager, GM, scouting and player development has a direct correlation to a lack of accountability. I know that Lip has brought up the "A" word several times this year and I couldn't agree more. Everyone has been asking why coaches and management haven't been held accountable for this season and I can think of two reasons: a lack of accountability, and the lack of clearly defined roles. Both of these problems are related to one another can be directly traced back to JR.

One of the most important responsibilities of the owner or CEO of any business is to have clearly defined roles for all of its employees. There is a clear omission of this with the White Sox. Two obvious examples that come to mind are the quote I heard on the Score and the Alex Rios situation. I remember when Kenny came out publicly and said that Rios was going to be benched, and then Ozzie continued to play him pretty regularly. It should be Jerry's responsibility to designate the GM or (preferably) the manager, with making moves such as these. Kenny and Ozzie must know what they can control and what they are responsible for. In my opinion, the cloudy gray area which exists with their roles has been a big contributor to their power struggles within the organization and their dislike of one another. Everyone seems to blame this on both of their immaturity. I blame this on Jerry not telling them what they are responsible for.

I believe the lack of clearly defined roles directly leads to a lack of accountability, and additionally leads to the perception that the organization does not demand excellence and a winning culture. I believe that nobody, Kenny, Ozzie, nor Jerry for that matter really know who is responsible for making personnel decision, as evidenced by my two previous examples, whether it comes to players, scouting, coaches or management. This leads to a lack of accountability for failures and no proactive decision-making in the hopes to improve the product as soon as possible. This, in turn, leads to the perception that the White Sox do not care about winning, which obviously angers fans like you and I.

So I ask you: Why doesn't Jerry get more of the blame? Is it because he is the boss and the fans and media have absolutely no influence on getting a new owner? It has taken me the entire year of pathetic baseball to completely figure this out. I'm not saying Jerry isn't a diehard Sox fan or has lots of baseball knowledge. However, I firmly believe that a great deal of the happenings this year, as well as our long futility of player development/scouting/drafting, can be directly affiliated with JR and his lack of ownership skills.

If you have made it through my entire rant, here's to you!!!:drunken:

For the same reason the players don't get blamed by many fans. Neither one can be fired (at least not without great financial cost), so some fans look to blame those that can be easily fired because to do so is relatively painless.

asindc
09-26-2011, 09:27 AM
Yep. People forget that the Bulls were a Hue Hollins call away from possibly doing some real damage. I guarantee there's no one more upset about that than Scottie Pippen, who finally had a chance to show he could lead a team without MJ in the picture.

Oh, and Little Nell - whether you intended to or not, you sort of discounted your own point by showing how much support Jordan needed to get to the promised land. MJ is the greatest of all time, but he needed the supporting cast, as you illustrated.

Of course, Pippen came closer to winning a title without Jordan than Jordan did without Pippen. OK then, back on topic.

It seems a lot of Sox fans excuse JR not only for the reason I wrote about in my earlier post, but because the team's payroll is highest its ever been. Much of the criticism levied at JR in the past was because of the perception that he wouldn't spend to bring a winner to the South Side. Now that he has and has since increased payroll, that issue is off the table. Now fans are clamoring that JR make changes in the management team that brought him his greatest success as a Sox owner. Whether justified or not, look at from JR's perspective. Does he want to rebuild at his age? Does he want to try to build trust in guys he doesn't know personally at his age? Does he want to deal with everything that comes with a rebuilding process, regardless of his age? We'll find out soon enough, I suppose.

Fenway
09-26-2011, 09:28 AM
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/images/buckstopsherefrontsmall.jpg

JR's mistake here is NOT coming out firmly and saying the KW/Ozzie situation will be addressed at the end of the season. The reason I pointed out the Boston situation is that the media here is blaming Henry for the Francona distraction which is the last thing a team needs when fighting for survival.

The 2 biggest hair triggered maniacs in MLB history were Charlie Finley and George Steinbrenner. Free agency destroyed Finley and created Steinbrenner.

KW would have been fired by most owners over the Dave Wilder situation but instead he got a 'free pass' over it.

The White Sox directly compete with one owner that wants to win it all before he dies (Mike Ilitch) - who at this point in life doesn't care how much it costs to win.

The bottom line comes down to this - if JR still feels that KW is the right man for the job then nothing will change at that level.

That is all stupid garbage. JR's not the one on the field striking out 250 times per season. He's not the one making claims on lazy, overpaid outfielders. He's not the one making idiotic managerial decisions.

A) I don't give a **** what people nationally think of JR over something that happened 20 years ago. Yeah, there was a strike, GET THE **** OVER IT, especially considering the only fans who suffered more from the 1994 strike than us are the 7 baseball fans left in Montreal.

B) The "checks he's signing" that have let this situation "get to where it is" are the largest ****ing payroll in team history. He's "loyal to a fault?" What kind of bull**** is that? Please tell me what teams are successful when you're owner is a hair-triggered maniac? Isn't that the Jeffrey Loria Style of Management? How's that working out in Florida for Marlin fans?

C) HEY GREAT, let's talk about how this relates to the Red Sox!!! THANKS AGAIN for your winning contributions to our White Sox discussions!! Isn't time now you should give someone horrendous advice about getting around on the CTA?

kittle42
09-26-2011, 09:47 AM
C) HEY GREAT, let's talk about how this relates to the Red Sox!!! THANKS AGAIN for your winning contributions to our White Sox discussions!! Isn't time now you should give someone horrendous advice about getting around on the CTA?

You can read all about it at the Talking Bost...I mean, Talking Baseball board.

Hitmen77
09-26-2011, 11:24 AM
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/images/buckstopsherefrontsmall.jpg

JR's mistake here is NOT coming out firmly and saying the KW/Ozzie situation will be addressed at the end of the season. The reason I pointed out the Boston situation is that the media here is blaming Henry for the Francona distraction which is the last thing a team needs when fighting for survival.

The 2 biggest hair triggered maniacs in MLB history were Charlie Finley and George Steinbrenner. Free agency destroyed Finley and created Steinbrenner.

KW would have been fired by most owners over the Dave Wilder situation but instead he got a 'free pass' over it.

The White Sox directly compete with one owner that wants to win it all before he dies (Mike Ilitch) - who at this point in life doesn't care how much it costs to win.

The bottom line comes down to this - if JR still feels that KW is the right man for the job then nothing will change at that level.

You bring up good points.

To answer the OP's question though, I think ultimately its hard for the public/media to give JR heat on the Sox situation because he did allow team payroll to jump to $127M.

I agree that there seems to be problems stemming from being too loyal to KW, Ozzie, Walker, etc. But being "too loyal" doesn't get people's blood boiling.

I'd also say that another thing JR has a hand in is the very sorry state that the Sox farm system is in. If it's true that the Sox consistently rank near the bottom of the league in money spent on the draft and the farm system, then that's JR's decision.

russ99
09-26-2011, 11:39 AM
B) The "checks he's signing" that have let this situation "get to where it is" are the largest ****ing payroll in team history. He's "loyal to a fault?" What kind of bull**** is that? Please tell me what teams are successful when you're owner is a hair-triggered maniac? Isn't that the Jeffrey Loria Style of Management? How's that working out in Florida for Marlin fans?



I maintain that this year's payroll is end result of throwing money at mistakes made from 2006-2010 and not addressed at the time.

Had Jerry invested in drafting and minor league development more, and had Kenny had even a little more payroll to work with in the "50 cents" offseasons, we wouldn't have likely needed to get Rios, trade for Peavy or sign Dunn.

I hope Jerry and Kenny can learn from their roster mistakes the last year and a half, as cash is going to be tighter moving forward.

kittle42
09-26-2011, 11:52 AM
had Kenny had even a little more payroll to work with in the "50 cents" offseasons

I miss those...

Fenway
09-26-2011, 12:02 PM
I'd also say that another thing JR has a hand in is the very sorry state that the Sox farm system is in. If it's true that the Sox consistently rank near the bottom of the league in money spent on the draft and the farm system, then that's JR's decision.

I know some development people and they see a major flaw in the White Sox farm operation.

HAD the team kept spring training in Florida they could have used Sarasota as a base for both the Gulf Coast and Florida State leagues and have a year-round complex that in season would be close to the minor league cluster in the southeast.

However JR living in Arizona wanted to make it easier for him to go to spring training. Now there is the argument that moving the White Sox to Arizona would improve media coverage since the Cubs were there...but by the same token the team has had trouble reaching the attendance numbers at Sarasota.

Phoenix is not really a vacation area - Tucson was better - as Phoenix is just too congested. Throw in being partners with Frank McCourt and you have issues. One of the people hoping to get the Dodgers when McCourt finally sells has said the first thing he will do is move the Dodgers back to Vero Beach. The Dodgers have found that SoCal fans would rather fly to Florida than drive to Arizona and still deal with smog.

captain54
09-26-2011, 01:16 PM
Probably because this isn't his fault? :dunno:

You're joking, right? Tell me you're just messin' with everybody, please

Lip Man 1
09-26-2011, 01:29 PM
There's plenty of blame to go around here. From JR, to Kenny to Ozzie to his coaching staff to some players.

To me JR "gets the blame" for only one thing this past season, not making any changes back in May when the Sox had lost 18 of 22 and the offense was in a free fall.

He stayed the course and nothing changed. Given the track record from the previous four years (bad fundamentals, inconsistent offense, bad starts to the season) something needed to be done and it wasn't.

The man put his money where his mouth was so he gets no blame in that regard.

Lip

jdm2662
09-26-2011, 02:00 PM
Just to be clear: part of my original point, perhaps too subtle, was that I was born in 1963, the year the Bears won their eighth NFL championship under George Halas. (Some, like the late Bill Gleason, as I recall, even give Halas partial credit for launching the rebuilding of the team that culminated in the Super Bowl XX championship. I'll leave that aside, given, as noted, Halas was dead by 1985.) Halas left an impact on pro football that Reinsdorf won't leave on baseball or basketball.

That said, again, I agree with the original point (and others) here: Reinsdorf's seven championships (understandably) deflect a lot of blame (for a situation in which others bear more responsibility anyway).

Some people just don't seem to understand football was around before 1967. Just because the championship didn't have a cool name, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. From a historical perspective, Halas is probably on a level of his own considering he was a coach and one of the founders of the league in general...

Does JR deserve some blame? Sure, but there are others that deserve more. The chairman isn't going anywhere, so wishing that needs to end.

captain54
09-26-2011, 02:26 PM
The man put his money where his mouth was so he gets no blame in that regard.

Lip

While the payroll was jacked up, JR still went into the 2011 season with the same bunch ( manager, coaches, GM) that had produced a .500 record since 06', going on 6 yrs.. and a GM and Field Manager that were not on the same page. But I guess signing Dunne was supposed to make up for all of that.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2011, 03:01 PM
Captain:

Please note:

"To me JR "gets the blame" for only one thing this past season, not making any changes back in May when the Sox had lost 18 of 22 and the offense was in a free fall.

He stayed the course and nothing changed. Given the track record from the previous four years (bad fundamentals, inconsistent offense, bad starts to the season) something needed to be done and it wasn't."

Thank you.

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-26-2011, 03:04 PM
My opinion on the "timetable" for all this is that if the Sox are calling a press conference this week, more than likely it will be to announce that Ozzie is returning BUT some of his coaches aren't.

The longer Ozzie's situation goes, the more it seems to me either that they can't work out a deal with him (since again he's insisting he'll come back 'if the Sox pay me' i.e. give me an extension) or they are trying to work out something with the Marlins.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
09-26-2011, 03:40 PM
Some people just don't seem to understand football was around before 1967. Just because the championship didn't have a cool name, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. From a historical perspective, Halas is probably on a level of his own considering he was a coach and one of the founders of the league in general...Halas was widely known for being cheap. That was the source of the Ditka quote "Halas throws nickels around like they're manhole covers." Halas was perfectly happy to not win championships as long as they were in the running, because being in the running kept butts in the seats, but winning championships meant that the players would want raises.

jdm2662
09-26-2011, 04:00 PM
Halas was widely known for being cheap. That was the source of the Ditka quote "Halas throws nickels around like they're manhole covers." Halas was perfectly happy to not win championships as long as they were in the running, because being in the running kept butts in the seats, but winning championships meant that the players would want raises.

I never said he wasn't a cheap ass or his later years were great. He contributed quite a bit to the game and league. That cannot be taken away from him.

I did read a book on the 63 Bears. The players were rather pissed they didn't get raises, and it appeared he lost touch with reality when the league got more popular. His son had to convince him to hire Jim Finks, who started to turn things around.

doublem23
09-26-2011, 04:02 PM
You're joking, right? Tell me you're just messin' with everybody, please

JR poured $120 million into this team, he's the only one around here pulling his weight.

Unless, of course, you think it's his fault when the Sox fail to hit with RISP. I usually blame the player for that, but it's a free country.

Daver
09-26-2011, 04:20 PM
JR poured $120 million into this team, he's the only one around here pulling his weight.

Unless, of course, you think it's his fault when the Sox fail to hit with RISP. I usually blame the player for that, but it's a free country.

It's the 21st century, where everything is always someone else's fault.

captain54
09-26-2011, 04:31 PM
Unless, of course, you think it's his fault when the Sox fail to hit with RISP. I usually blame the player for that, but it's a free country.

Let's blame every player on every roster the Sox have had since mid 06 for a mediocre record and bad starts, bad finishes, failure against the Central, inconsistent offense and bad fundamentals. And no accountability to the man at the top and all the management and coaching personnel he was responsible for putting in place... You got it, chief

Every from the top on down holds equal responsibiity for this mess

hi im skot
09-26-2011, 04:38 PM
Let's blame every player on every roster the Sox have had since mid 06 for a mediocre record and bad starts, bad finishes, failure against the Central, inconsistent offense and bad fundamentals. And no accountability to the man at the top and all the management and coaching personnel he was responsible for putting in place... You got it, chief

Every from the top on down holds equal responsibiity for this mess

Put 'er there, sport.

delben91
09-26-2011, 04:56 PM
Let's blame every player on every roster the Sox have had since mid 06 for a mediocre record and bad starts, bad finishes, failure against the Central, inconsistent offense and bad fundamentals. And no accountability to the man at the top and all the management and coaching personnel he was responsible for putting in place... You got it, chief

Every from the top on down holds equal responsibiity for this mess

Yes! Even the administrative assistants share some blame, they should've not put through calls from Dunn's agent to KW and JR! What are they, idiots?!?!?!?! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

DSpivack
09-26-2011, 05:04 PM
JR poured $120 million into this team, he's the only one around here pulling his weight.

Unless, of course, you think it's his fault when the Sox fail to hit with RISP. I usually blame the player for that, but it's a free country.

I don't think he's cheap, and I've always argued strongly against people with that POV.

However, I do think that JR has hurt the franchise with his approach towards player development and the draft. I think he is so close and so loyal to Bud Selig that he just refuses to spend money on the draft or an international players, and that really hurts the team in the long run, as a dearth of talent on the farm means more money needs to be spent on the major league team. Penny-wise and dollar foolish; or, perhaps more accurately, 7-figure wise and 9-figure foolish.

captain54
09-26-2011, 05:23 PM
Put 'er there, sport.

thank you for your insightful, valuable, thoughtful and interesting contribution to the discussion at hand

captain54
09-26-2011, 05:29 PM
Yes! Even the administrative assistants share some blame, they should've not put through calls from Dunn's agent to KW and JR! What are they, idiots?!?!?!?! :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Let's put it another way. If the players take sole responsibility for the failures of 2011, then they take sole responsibilty for the success of 2005. the members of the organization other than the players should by rights return all of those fancy WS rings

cant have it both ways

AZChiSoxFan
09-26-2011, 05:41 PM
JR poured $120 million into this team, he's the only one around here pulling his weight.

Unless, of course, you think it's his fault when the Sox fail to hit with RISP. I usually blame the player for that, but it's a free country.

So, just to make sure I have this straight, JR's only job is to write checks. In no way, shape or form should part of his job include hiring a competent GM and a competent coach.

Daver
09-26-2011, 05:51 PM
I don't think he's cheap, and I've always argued strongly against people with that POV.

However, I do think that JR has hurt the franchise with his approach towards player development and the draft. I think he is so close and so loyal to Bud Selig that he just refuses to spend money on the draft or an international players, and that really hurts the team in the long run, as a dearth of talent on the farm means more money needs to be spent on the major league team. Penny-wise and dollar foolish; or, perhaps more accurately, 7-figure wise and 9-figure foolish.

The baseball budget is a finite amount, you either spend it on building the farm system at the cost of an average major league roster, or you spend it on the major league roster in hopes of producing a winner and putting asses in the seats. Investments made on minor league players do not put asses in the seats of Comiskey Park.

When you are competing for the casual fan market your best bet is to put your money where the casual fans will see it.

DSpivack
09-26-2011, 05:59 PM
The baseball budget is a finite amount, you either spend it on building the farm system at the cost of an average major league roster, or you spend it on the major league roster in hopes of producing a winner and putting asses in the seats. Investments made on minor league players do not put asses in the seats of Comiskey Park.

When you are competing for the casual fan market your best bet is to put your money where the casual fans will see it.

Don't you save money in the long run with the ability to develop your own players?

Dan H
09-26-2011, 05:59 PM
I've been a Reinsdorf critic but I can't argue with the two three-peats the Bulls had and this makes him stand out among the Chicago owners. Of course, most of the other owners have been so bad, sometimes it is easy to stand out.

However, his record with the Bulls is separate from the White Sox. With 2005, there have been some great moments. Yet, there have been some awful ones and many mistakes as well. Right now the team is in bad shape and staying the course is not an option in my book.

I think the leadership will have to come from Reinsdorf for things to turn around. And it is not enough to assess blame. We need solutions because pointing fingers and hoping that under-achieving players improve is not the answer.

Daver
09-26-2011, 06:05 PM
Don't you save money in the long run with the ability to develop your own players?


Ask the Twins and the A's, they save on payroll at the cost of never being a contender even when they make the post season, or better yet, look at the Marlins, build a winner and lose your best players to free agency and spend years in mediocrity building another winner.

It is somewhat easier to do this in a one team market, the White Sox do not have that luxury.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2011, 06:10 PM
As Noneck and others have pointed out, and as I have been told with some examples by sources (including the signing of AJ directly), JR is apparently more involved than many fans think he is in the baseball operations.

I can't say if that's good or bad since I'm not in the meetings to see how much he may be involved but one thing it does is undercut the authority of the G.M.

I remember reading years ago a story on the success of the 49'ers and why it happened in S.I. They spoke with Eddie DeBartolo Jr., the owner, and he listed four or five rules the organization lived by.

The #1 rule he stated was that ownership's job is to hire the best people possible and then allow them to do their jobs unhindered. He said with the Niners, ownership stayed out of the way.

I guess you could say they felt that ownerships job was in fact, simply to sign the checks and enjoy good seats at the game.

Lip

dickallen15
09-26-2011, 06:10 PM
Yep. People forget that the Bulls were a Hue Hollins call away from possibly doing some real damage. I guarantee there's no one more upset about that than Scottie Pippen, who finally had a chance to show he could lead a team without MJ in the picture.

Oh, and Little Nell - whether you intended to or not, you sort of discounted your own point by showing how much support Jordan needed to get to the promised land. MJ is the greatest of all time, but he needed the supporting cast, as you illustrated.

How many championships do you think JR would have collected if he bought the Milwaukee Bucks instead of the Bulls with Jordan in place, and brought in Krause to be the GM? Was Scottie more upset with that or that Phil Jackson gave a final shot to Toni Kukoc so Scottie decided to sit the play out? I give him credit for the steal the Bulls were. But without Jordan, he doesn't win. I don't think JR's a bad owner, he is the best in town, if that is saying much. He's a very smart man. I hope he puts his brain to use this offseason.

dickallen15
09-26-2011, 06:14 PM
As Noneck and others have pointed out, and as I have been told with some examples by sources (including the signing of AJ directly), JR is apparently more involved than many fans think he is in the baseball operations.

I can't say if that's good or bad since I'm not in the meetings to see how much he may be involved but one thing it does is undercut the authority of the G.M.

I remember reading years ago a story on the success of the 49'ers and why it happened in S.I. They spoke with Eddie DeBartolo Jr., the owner, and he listed four or five rules the organization lived by.

The #1 rule he stated was that ownership's job is to hire the best people possible and then allow them to do their jobs unhindered. He said with the Niners, ownership stayed out of the way.

I guess you could say they felt that ownerships job was in fact, simply to sign the checks and enjoy good seats at the game.

Lip

There have been many quotes about how JR stays out of everyone's business and lets them do the jobs they are hired to perform. Maybe things have changed.

Johnny Mostil
09-26-2011, 06:17 PM
Halas was widely known for being cheap. That was the source of the Ditka quote "Halas throws nickels around like they're manhole covers." Halas was perfectly happy to not win championships as long as they were in the running, because being in the running kept butts in the seats, but winning championships meant that the players would want raises.

It is interesting that the Bears won their seventh championship by 1946 but didn't win their eighth until 1963. Two championships in 65 years and counting now (about half of which saw Halas still alive) isn't, to be sure, that great a record. But I'd still put Halas on top among Chicago sports owners in your lifetime or mine.:geezer:

That said, I would agree nobody else is ahead of Reinsdorf, either in our lifetimes or before.

AZChiSoxFan
09-26-2011, 06:22 PM
As Noneck and others have pointed out, and as I have been told with some examples by sources (including the signing of AJ directly), JR is apparently more involved than many fans think he is in the baseball operations.

I can't say if that's good or bad since I'm not in the meetings to see how much he may be involved but one thing it does is undercut the authority of the G.M.

I remember reading years ago a story on the success of the 49'ers and why it happened in S.I. They spoke with Eddie DeBartolo Jr., the owner, and he listed four or five rules the organization lived by.

The #1 rule he stated was that ownership's job is to hire the best people possible and then allow them to do their jobs unhindered. He said with the Niners, ownership stayed out of the way.

I guess you could say they felt that ownerships job was in fact, simply to sign the checks and enjoy good seats at the game.

Lip

Lip, if you wrote the bolded part because of my question, that's of course fine. But your point right above that agrees with what I was really getting at. The owner's main job is to hire the right people. I, like many others here, don't feel that Ozzie and/or Kenny are the right people.

AZChiSoxFan
09-26-2011, 06:28 PM
Ask the Twins and the A's, they save on payroll at the cost of never being a contender even when they make the post season, or better yet, look at the Marlins, build a winner and lose your best players to free agency and spend years in mediocrity building another winner.

It is somewhat easier to do this in a one team market, the White Sox do not have that luxury.

Daver, do the Twins and A's have the same size payroll as the Sox?

By many accounts, the Sox have one of the worst farm systems in baseball. If that's not true, then please correct me on that point. If it is true though, as a fan, are you OK with that? I suspect that most fans just want a team that wins, regardless of how it's assembled. If the Twins and A's are at one end of the spectrum (all into the farm, never any spending on FA's) and the Sox are at the other end (terrible farm system), can't there be a happy medium somewhere in the middle? It just seems like it's hard to build a team that consistently competes when you get little to no help from the farm.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2011, 06:31 PM
Az:

The results speak for themselves and the results the past six years seem to back up your point.

And I admit, I'm getting uneasy with everything I'm being told about JR's involvement, from signing AJ and apparently undercutting Kenny as he was opening negotiations with Olivo, to his direct involvement is the drafting process telling people who to draft and what to sign them for.

JR is an astute businessman but I don't think he should be getting involved that personally in day to day baseball decisions. That's not his specialty.

Lip

soxinem1
09-26-2011, 06:47 PM
My perception of JR is slightly more positive in the last few years, however saying that I remember his shenanigans since 1981, thus I cannot give him a pass and label him one of the best owners in Chicago history, unless it was by default in comparison to the brutal owners that have ran all the teams into the ground here for generations.

In this case, I would have to compare him to other baseball owners, and I say his teams have performed way below what they should have.

So let's not re-write history here. 2005 was a result of KW shedding a ton of payroll and adding pieces to make the team competitive, and everything happened to fall into place, even though the team, like all of Ozzie's teams, didn't light the world on fire in September. They played extremely well for 75% of the season and won when it mattered. It is safe to say the caught lightning in a bottle and ran away with it.

And it was KW who said that while the 2005 team accomplished the ultimate, that team would not have repeated as it was, and most of us agree.

Lip has maintained that JR should have went for the jugular in 2006, and I agree. You had a defending World Champion and should have went after a repeat hard, and even extended that to minor league talent development. He did not do that. Sure, he had revenue, higher ticket prices, attendance, etc., and added some payroll for 2006, yet how much higher was it compared to 2004?

NYY and BOS, to name a few, have had mostly worse draft positions than the White Sox over the past 15 years, yet still sign and develop players from within better than we do.

Why? Because they run the teams like big-market teams. JR should have went full tilt, and did not.

Saying that, he has given KW more leeway than any GM he has employed since becoming owner, and if anything, should demand more accountability from his GM, field manager, coaches, advance scouts, etc.

Maybe it is time he demanded it....

eastchicagosoxfan
09-26-2011, 06:53 PM
Halas was widely known for being cheap. That was the source of the Ditka quote "Halas throws nickels around like they're manhole covers." Halas was perfectly happy to not win championships as long as they were in the running, because being in the running kept butts in the seats, but winning championships meant that the players would want raises.

This isn't the thread to go into depth on Halas, but your statement suggests that Halas would rather lose a big game than win it. That's just not true. The coming in second place aspect is also associated with Connie Mack and Clark Griffith.

Daver
09-26-2011, 07:11 PM
Daver, do the Twins and A's have the same size payroll as the Sox?


Payroll size has nothing to do with budget, the percentages will still be same regardless of the size of the numbers.

Lip Man 1
09-26-2011, 07:19 PM
Soxinem:

I don't know if I ever said JR should have gone for the jugular in 2006. I may have, just don't remember doing so.

If memory serves I thought the team was pretty well set for a repeat shot.

Now I did have some concerns over the Rowand - Thome deal just from a clubhouse chemistry standpoint (and that's not saying a thing against Jim).

Lip

palehozenychicty
09-26-2011, 07:41 PM
I don't think he's cheap, and I've always argued strongly against people with that POV.

However, I do think that JR has hurt the franchise with his approach towards player development and the draft. I think he is so close and so loyal to Bud Selig that he just refuses to spend money on the draft or an international players, and that really hurts the team in the long run, as a dearth of talent on the farm means more money needs to be spent on the major league team. Penny-wise and dollar foolish; or, perhaps more accurately, 7-figure wise and 9-figure foolish.

Exactly, and this is why I believe more often than not, the team fades in the second half and can't put together consecutive division winners. Others have pointed out the lack of organizational depth for years, and it continually kills the team. At this point, though, I don't think we'll see much change from JR. We'll just have to keep waiting for the next year to have it all go right again. :(:

Fenway
09-27-2011, 02:22 PM
We learned last night that KW had tried to fire Ozzie TWICE and JR would not allow it.

If the GM does not have the authority to fire his field manager you have a BIG problem.

Why doesn't the Chicago media pounce on this? Are they that aftaid of JR?

tstrike2000
09-27-2011, 02:59 PM
We learned last night that KW had tried to fire Ozzie TWICE and JR would not allow it.

If the GM does not have the authority to fire his field manager you have a BIG problem.

Why doesn't the Chicago media pounce on this? Are they that aftaid of JR?

Agreed, 100%. An owner should hire the GM and get the hell out of the way in terms of letting the GM do his job.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2011, 09:18 PM
I think JR would be taking more heat right now if not for Ozzie acting like a selfish prick, and KW accepting blame by saying he has on multiple occasions offered to step down as GM.

Noneck
09-27-2011, 09:30 PM
Why doesn't the Chicago media pounce on this? Are they that aftaid of JR?

Its not only the GM not being able to fire his subordinates, now its hiring coaches before hiring a manager and no one says anything. Teams that are run by non baseball people dont do well.