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Lip Man 1
09-24-2011, 10:42 AM
Doesn't expect any major changes:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0924-white-sox-royals-chicago--20110924,0,4135232.story

If he's right we'll see how the fans react in the off season. I wouldn't expect it to be positive.

Lip

SI1020
09-24-2011, 10:56 AM
If I'm not mistaken Gonzales recently wrote a column stating that "radical change" was on the horizon for the Sox. Wait a minute, here it is.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0916-on-white-sox-gonzales-chicago--2-20110916,0,116443.story?obref=obinsite

So who is going to be right?

Lip Man 1
09-24-2011, 11:01 AM
Based on what I know of the two writers (let's just say I've been told a number of things about Van Dyck's "professionalism") I'd put my money on Gonzo from the standpoint of sources and getting the facts straight. No one that I know of in the Chicago media speaks regularly with more scouts, more baseball people in both leagues than Gonzo. He even does it in the off season just to get a sense of what's going on.

But the reality is nobody except for JR knows what's going to happen.

I'm hoping as a fan for radical change but these are the White Sox so it also wouldn't come as a total shock if both Kenny and Ozzie are back next year. JR does not like to pay a manager not to manage.

I guess though that if say, firing two or three or more coaches take place and OUTSIDE individuals (no connection to Ozzie or the franchise) are brought in that could help straighten things out.

Lip

Brewski
09-24-2011, 11:06 AM
Based on what I know of the two writers (let's just say I've been told a number of things about Van Dyck's "professionalism") I'd put my money on Gonzo from the standpoint of sources and getting the facts straight.

But the reality is nobody except for JR knows what's going to happen.

I'm hoping as a fan for radical change but these are the White Sox so it also wouldn't come as a total shock if both Kenny and Ozzie are back next year. JR does not like to pay a manager not to manage.

I guess though that if say, firing two or three or more coaches take place and OUTSIDE individuals (no connection to Ozzie or the franchise) are brought in that could help straighten things out.

Lip

Are there owners who DO like to pay a manager not to manage? He's done it before, liking it or not.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2011, 11:08 AM
But JR's history is to do it with great reluctance and only as a final option when there is no other choice...given his personal attachment to Ozzie you might have a combination that overrides everything.

Lip

Tragg
09-24-2011, 11:19 AM
I don't know who's right, but I hope Gonzales is: radical changes are needed.

DirtySox
09-24-2011, 11:29 AM
Van Dyck seems to be the only one with this opinion.

Fenway
09-24-2011, 11:55 AM
Van Dyck seems to be the only one with this opinion.

Is there any Chicago writer that JR whispers to?

Lip Man 1
09-24-2011, 12:12 PM
No.

He's really close with only one national writer and that's Dave Nightengale.

Lip

A. Cavatica
09-24-2011, 12:39 PM
I will not spend a dime on the 2012 Sox if Ozzie is back.

ZombieRob
09-24-2011, 01:02 PM
I will not spend a dime on the 2012 Sox if Ozzie is back.
Agreed. I don't think Sox fans have ever been as insulted by a manager or owner as much as Gullien has this year. JR is just as responsible for letting it continue year after year after year. The sideshow has to go.

kufram
09-24-2011, 01:08 PM
I still think that if Dunn and Rios had hit anything this year this conversation would be very different. Maybe JR thinks that too.

A. Cavatica
09-24-2011, 01:22 PM
I still think that if Dunn and Rios had hit anything this year this conversation would be very different. Maybe JR thinks that too.

Doesn't excuse clown managing, lack of effort, and insulting the fans.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2011, 01:22 PM
This and that:

This comes from a source who knows the Sox situation pretty well. Take it for what it's worth:

"You got to understand. Van Dyck always will be a management guy when it comes to the Sox (except when it comes to the chairman). If they're going to cut payroll, then changes have to be made.

The fact that they're considering organizational meetings would represent more of a willingness on the GM's part to FINALLY listen to his entire pro scouts, instead of just Yoakum and Bill Scherrer (who is moving to Phoenix). Scherrer also idolizes Jim Fregosi.

Pretty funny about the last organizational meetings. They were in Phoenix in Oct. of 2007. Jeff Cox had yet to be hired as third base coach, yet he sat in on the meetings (with the chairman present).

KW is pretty snippy in these meetings, and he doesn't realize that he shouldn't be the only one allowed to make mistakes. If he doesn't like his scouts, then he should get rid of them. I think most of the White Sox's pro scouts are pretty good. The mistakes have been made by KW (Dunn and Rios were impulse deals, as well as Peavy).

I think they can deal Ozzie to FLA as part of a bigger package. Throw in Rios and some of the money for Logan Morrison and a serviceable lefty, then move Thornton and Quentin in other deals.

And I'd put Ramirez and Beckham on notice. I'm tired of watching this BS that exists in this organization.

I feel for the fans who have to endure this lack of accountability and lack of institutional control."

Lip

Brian26
09-24-2011, 01:33 PM
I think they can deal Ozzie to FLA as part of a bigger package. Throw in Rios and some of the money for Logan Morrison and a serviceable lefty, then move Thornton and Quentin in other deals.

And I'd put Ramirez and Beckham on notice. I'm tired of watching this BS that exists in this organization.

I feel for the fans who have to endure this lack of accountability and lack of institutional control."

Lip

Whoever wrote that is reading WSI and stealing my material. Yeah, both Alexei and Beckham are expendable at this point.

As for Cox being at the organizational meetings, that's a joke.

dickallen15
09-24-2011, 01:37 PM
No.

He's really close with only one national writer and that's Dave Nightengale.

Lip
In basketball, he is pretty tight with Sam Smith. I've seen them out together a couple of times.

asindc
09-24-2011, 02:20 PM
Whoever wrote that is reading WSI and stealing my material. Yeah, both Alexei and Beckham are expendable at this point.

As for Cox being at the organizational meetings, that's a joke.

Yes it is... if it is in fact true that Cox had not been hired yet.

kufram
09-24-2011, 02:22 PM
Doesn't excuse clown managing, lack of effort, and insulting the fans.

I didn't say it did. It changes the conversation. Winning games as opposed to losing games makes a lot of this stuff sidebars rather than the story. Some of the people who want rid of Ozzie will want rid of him no matter what happens.

A. Cavatica
09-24-2011, 02:28 PM
I didn't say it did. It changes the conversation. Winning games as opposed to losing games makes a lot of this stuff sidebars rather than the story. Some of the people who want rid of Ozzie will want rid of him no matter what happens.

I'm one of them. I think Ozzie is largely responsible for this team underperforming since 2006, and I've been criticizing him for the same things consistently every since.

I also think Kenny needs to go, because he's gambled away the future of this team for a present that is below .500. I would be OK if Ozzie were let go and Kenny were allowed to stick around for one more season, though, because someone has to clean up the mess. At least Kenny has made some astute personnel moves, but for the life of me I still can't figure out what Guillen brings to the table.

Frater Perdurabo
09-24-2011, 02:36 PM
but for the life of me I still can't figure out what Guillen brings to the table.

He gets the players to play hard for him, right?

Brian26
09-24-2011, 02:59 PM
Yes it is... if it is in fact true that Cox had not been hired yet.

Even if he had been hired, it's a joke. Cox is an ass-clown. I've never seen the guy answer a question seriously, and I've seen players role his eyes at his schtick. I can't imagine trying to have a productive meeting with him at the table.

HaroMaster87
09-24-2011, 06:44 PM
Well from the writing in blue, it seems as though the whole ship is being run by KW...and yet he doesnt really know what he's doing.

Impulse deals??? how does that happen in MLB???

russ99
09-24-2011, 07:57 PM
Well from the writing in blue, it seems as though the whole ship is being run by KW...and yet he doesnt really know what he's doing.

Impulse deals??? how does that happen in MLB???

With the track record Kenny had up until midseason last year, I'm sure he had some leeway on deals, especially if JR had to choose between KW's viewpoint and the scouts' viewpoint.

StillMissOzzie
09-24-2011, 11:17 PM
This and that:

This comes from a source who knows the Sox situation pretty well. Take it for what it's worth:

"...The fact that they're considering organizational meetings would represent more of a willingness on the GM's part to FINALLY listen to his entire pro scouts, instead of just Yoakum and Bill Scherrer (who is moving to Phoenix). Scherrer also idolizes Jim Fregosi.

KW is pretty snippy in these meetings, and he doesn't realize that he shouldn't be the only one allowed to make mistakes. If he doesn't like his scouts, then he should get rid of them. I think most of the White Sox's pro scouts are pretty good. The mistakes have been made by KW (Dunn and Rios were impulse deals, as well as Peavy). ...."

Lip

So let me see if I am reading this right, or maybe reading between the lines right - there has been friction between the scouts and KW and Dunn, Rios and Peavy were impulse deals - does this mean that the scouts were against these deals but KW had JR's ear and got his way? Those all involved 10's of millions of dollars in future committments, and have all gone poorly, let alone the year Rios had last year. I am beginning to wonder if KW may also be on a short leash regardless of Ozzie's future.

SMO
:scratch:

Vernam
09-25-2011, 07:49 AM
Well from the writing in blue, it seems as though the whole ship is being run by KW...and yet he doesnt really know what he's doing.

Impulse deals??? how does that happen in MLB???

Well, it's 20-20 hindsight. One GM's bold move is another's impulse deal, depending on the results. I do assume the scouts had pointed out the huge potential downsides to acquiring each of the Three Albatrosses, and Kenny didn't listen or they got overruled. Since the deals didn't work out and their jobs are presumably on the line, it wouldn't be surprising if they tried to distance themselves from the acquisitions and just hang it on Kenny. Remind you of anyone?! :tongue:

I agree with the people who are saying Kenny has operated better on a shoestring budget than when he can go after big names. And that seems to support the statement that our MLB level scouts know what they're doing. (I wouldn't necessarily say the same about the amateur scouting.) Let's hope so on both counts, because shoestring budgets are probably in the immediate future.

Vernam

Corlose 15
09-25-2011, 11:56 PM
Did anyone really see Dunn having the worst (if he gets something like 13 more ABs) batting average in the history of baseball? I can understand if some scouts were wary of adding Dunn out of philosophical differences considering his skill set but the guy had been the model of consistency the last 7 years.

Nelson Foxtrot
09-26-2011, 01:37 AM
While I doubt anybody expected a Bill Bergen-like batting average, a lot of people did foresee a Dunn collapse and have been predicting it for years. It's the whole "young player with old player skills" situation. Basically, players with Dunn's skills tend to fall apart overnight in their early 30s, when bat speed decreases. Bill James wrote about this roughly 30 years ago, analyzing many players in a similar situation, and there have been a lot more since then. I would assume scouts are probably even more aware of this than the statheads. Players who have large frames, don't hit for average, and don't have great speed or fielding skills normally don't age well. Their hitting skills erode earlier than their more athletic counterparts, and they can't do much about it.

Even big slow guys who were great hitters like Frank Thomas and Jim Thome still have decent averages after their decline, and can still hit homeruns and draw walks. In fact, many players increase their walk and homer rates as they age. However, when somebody like Dunn sees his average plummet, he's not making contact enough to hit homers, and then pitchers go right after him, decreasing his walks as well. According to some numbers I saw a couple weeks ago, Dunn was leading the majors in foul balls, and the amount of fastballs he was thrown had drastically increased. He can't catch up to them.

I didn't discover any of this until earlier in the season, and found many Nats fans over winter were glad to let Dunn walk for this reason. Even with the stats looking great last year, there were concerns with his overall game. They also thought that only a bad team with money to spend would give Dunn $20 million over 2 years for 2009-10. I noticed fans on other team boards ranging from Yankees to Royals felt the Dunn signing would be a complete disaster for the Sox when it happened. Mariners fans were especially anti-Dunn after their disaster with Sexson, who didn't really fit the mold. Many had a "They're both going to fall apart soon, but at least we got the cheap one" reaction to the Dunn-lite Jack Cust signing. They were born months apart and both had a terrible 2011. Reds sites were discussing an inevitable Dunn decline when he was still on the team, most reluctant to ever give him more than a 2 year deal back in 2008.

Reds fans have also remarked on a change in Dunn's swing over the years. Dunn has openly worried that DHing would hurt his hitting, so there's both the normal DH trouble, along with the potential self-fulfilling prophecy. We also can't rule out issues relating to the appendix surgery. Perhaps a combination of these things is producing the historically bad year. I can't say for certain that age is the issue and that he won't bounce back, but I did want to try to put an end to the "Nobody saw this coming!" stuff I keep seeing on WSI, since a ton of people did see it coming, only with most expecting Dunn to hit .200 rather than .160.

Does anybody know what other offers were made to Dunn before he signed here?

SCCWS
09-26-2011, 12:30 PM
I'm one of them. I think Ozzie is largely responsible for this team underperforming since 2006, and I've been criticizing him for the same things consistently every since.

I also think Kenny needs to go, because he's gambled away the future of this team for a present that is below .500. I would be OK if Ozzie were let go and Kenny were allowed to stick around for one more season, though, because someone has to clean up the mess. At least Kenny has made some astute personnel moves, but for the life of me I still can't figure out what Guillen brings to the table.


You also posted on 12-14-10 that
"While it is nice to have Dunn on board, I'm not convinced that this team was just a DH away from contending. We don't know what we're going to get from 3 starting pitchers and 4-5 regulars, we don't have a closer, and our manager isn't getting any smarter".

So you went into the season thinking this team had major personnel issues but conclude Ozzie is largely responsible for the outcome and Kenny should stay one more year. ........... They both should be sent out on the next space shot.