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CLUBHOUSE KID
09-19-2011, 05:13 PM
He got save #602 this afternoon. I know people hate the Yankees but what a career from a good guy.

kittle42
09-19-2011, 05:40 PM
Love when a guy does it all with one team, too. Unless it's Derek Jeter. Screw him!:D:

CLUBHOUSE KID
09-19-2011, 05:48 PM
Love when a guy does it all with one team, too. Unless it's Derek Jeter. Screw him!:D:

lol I like franchise players.

Foulke You
09-19-2011, 06:00 PM
He really is the best closer ever. I don't see how it can even be argued otherwise when you factor in his October success. I wonder how many years he has left? He is still very effective with that cutter. Rivera very well might have another 80 saves left in that arm.

asindc
09-19-2011, 06:08 PM
My favorite non-Sox player. Congrats, #42!:gulp:

Soxman219
09-19-2011, 06:20 PM
Best closer of all time, and with only one pitch too!

:gulp:

#1swisher
09-19-2011, 08:10 PM
Congratulations to the "Saves King", Mariano Rivera! :tiphat:

Love having the NY Yankees as my second favorite team.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=nyy

Nellie_Fox
09-20-2011, 12:58 AM
He really is the best closer ever.That "ever" is a really short time span. The idea of a guy who only comes in for the ninth inning, with nobody on base, to get just three outs, is a very recent invention. The "old" firemen would come in any time from the 7th inning on if the opposition started mounting a threat, with the assignment to shut it down. Gossage and guys like him came in with a couple of men on all the time, and then would often finish out the last couple of innings. Closers are NEVER asked to do that anymore.

wilburaga
09-20-2011, 07:28 AM
I expect Mariano will be the initial unanimous first ballot HOF selection. Any voter that snubs him would be the object of universal derision.

kittle42
09-20-2011, 10:39 AM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/riverma01.shtml

Aside from his rookie year (when he was mostly starting) and 2007 (bad year for him, perfectly fine for your average reliever), he has *never* had anything close to a bad season.

Wow.

asindc
09-20-2011, 10:53 AM
I expect Mariano will be the initial unanimous first ballot HOF selection. Any voter that snubs him would be the object of universal derision.

Nah. If Rickey Henderson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Sandy Koufax did not get unanimously selected on the first ballot, Rivera won't either.

Fenway
09-20-2011, 11:05 AM
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/09/20/gal_cover_wrap_0920.jpg

Yankees fans can be harsh but I have yet to hear one ever blame Mo for the team losing Game 7 of the 2001 World Series or Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS.

The man is a class act.

Mike Lupica writes this morning
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2011/09/20/2011-09-20_core_four_becomes_one_at_yankee_stadium_as_mari ano_rivera_sets_mlb_alltime_caree.html

wilburaga
09-20-2011, 11:18 AM
Nah. If Rickey Henderson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Sandy Koufax did not get unanimously selected on the first ballot, Rivera won't either.

I disagree. I think Rivera is the perfect candidate. He's unquestionably the best ever at what he does (though the closer is a relatively recent creation), he's clutch and he has absolutely no off-field issues. I foresee a campaign to make Mo the first unanimous first ballot selection, and I wouldn't want to be the voter who had to explain why he didn't select him.

asindc
09-20-2011, 11:23 AM
I disagree. I think Rivera is the perfect candidate. He's unquestionably the best ever at what he does (though the closer is a relatively recent creation), he's clutch and he has absolutely no off-field issues. I foresee a campaign to make Mo the first unanimous first ballot selection, and I wouldn't want to be the voter who had to explain why he didn't select him.

Moreso than Mays, Aaron, or Koufax? It is clear that writers have decided that if Ruth did not get a unanimous selection, they will not give it to anyone.

wilburaga
09-20-2011, 11:46 AM
Moreso than Mays, Aaron, or Koufax? It is clear that writers have decided that if Ruth did not get a unanimous selection, they will not give it to anyone.

We'll see in 5+ years.

Nellie_Fox
09-20-2011, 12:05 PM
...I wouldn't want to be the voter who had to explain why he didn't select him.Do they reveal how individual writers vote? I only remember finding out if a writer revealed his votes; some of them will write a column about their votes and why they voted the way they did, but I didn't think the BBWA revealed names.

doublem23
09-20-2011, 12:43 PM
I expect Mariano will be the initial unanimous first ballot HOF selection. Any voter that snubs him would be the object of universal derision.

As silly as the guys are who don't vote for players on the 1st ballot are, it would be downright ridiculous if he was the first unanimous entry.

Anyways, congrats, Mariano, on being lucky enough to end up on the Yankees so you could rack all these saves up. Really fine work there.

doublem23
09-20-2011, 12:45 PM
Do they reveal how individual writers vote? I only remember finding out if a writer revealed his votes; some of them will write a column about their votes and why they voted the way they did, but I didn't think the BBWA revealed names.

They do not.

Anyways, I'm also sure there's at least going to be one old coot on the BBWAA who doesn't consider relief pitchers to be a "position," and therefore will not vote for Mariano 1st time around. And he'll be damn proud to admit it, I bet, too.

wilburaga
09-20-2011, 12:46 PM
Do they reveal how individual writers vote? I only remember finding out if a writer revealed his votes; some of them will write a column about their votes and why they voted the way they did, but I didn't think the BBWA revealed names.

You're right - they are not automatically made public. In 2011, a little over a fifth of the voters disclosed their ballots. But in this case, I think if a voter makes such a controversial decision as to exclude Rivera, he/she should have the courage to go public with the reasons for doing so. In fact, I believe that if the dissenting voter(s) did not come forward, there would be a strong push to make all the ballots public.

Nellie_Fox
09-20-2011, 12:56 PM
You're right - they are not automatically made public. In 2011, a little over a fifth of the voters disclosed their ballots. But in this case, I think if a voter makes such a controversial decision as to exclude Rivera, he/she should have the courage to go public with the reasons for doing so. In fact, I believe that if the dissenting voter(s) did not come forward, there would be a strong push to make all the ballots public.It wouldn't be the most egregious example of a poor choice in leaving someone off the HOF ballot. In very recent history, Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn didn't get selected unanimously, and there was not a big outcry to make ballots public.

You're acting like Mariano Rivera is indisputably the best baseball player ever to play the game, since no one else has ever gotten a unanimous first-ballot selection.

And Doub, not everything that goes on that you don't like is because of "old coots." I'll bet there are young writers who don't think coming in with the bases empty and getting three outs is the greatest achievement in the history of baseball.

Daver
09-20-2011, 01:04 PM
And Doub, not everything that goes on that you don't like is because of "old coots." I'll bet there are young writers who don't think coming in with the bases empty and getting three outs is the greatest achievement in the history of baseball.

There are even some that don't consider the "hold" or the "save" as viable stats.

wilburaga
09-20-2011, 01:27 PM
It wouldn't be the most egregious example of a poor choice in leaving someone off the HOF ballot. In very recent history, Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn didn't get selected unanimously, and there was not a big outcry to make ballots public.

You're acting like Mariano Rivera is indisputably the best baseball player ever to play the game, since no one else has ever gotten a unanimous first-ballot selection.

And Doub, not everything that goes on that you don't like is because of "old coots." I'll bet there are young writers who don't think coming in with the bases empty and getting three outs is the greatest achievement in the history of baseball.

I've seen several shortstops better than Cal Ripken, and many outfielders better than Tony Gwynn. I've never seen a reliever comparable to Rivera.

Nellie_Fox
09-20-2011, 02:09 PM
I've seen several shortstops better than Cal Ripken, and many outfielders better than Tony Gwynn. I've never seen a reliever comparable to Rivera.Again, it's only been a very short period of time that relievers get used like today, with all the specialization. Your best reliever in the past was expected to come in any time from the seventh inning on, possibly facing a first and third with one out situation, get out of that, and then finish the game. Could Rivera have been as dominant doing that? We'll never know. The point is, there isn't much of a history to compare him to. I simply don't buy the argument that he must be a unanimous first rounder or else there has been a huge injustice, when no one else has ever been unanimous.

#1swisher
09-20-2011, 02:54 PM
Joe Torre - "Not only the ability to pitch and perform under pressure but the calm he puts over the clubhouse".


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/item_b439rtXfq7dAG34Q4xLf5K

Fenway
09-20-2011, 03:14 PM
I've seen several shortstops better than Cal Ripken, and many outfielders better than Tony Gwynn. I've never seen a reliever comparable to Rivera.

For 16 years you know the cutter is coming and still he usally gets the job done.

Boston has had some success against him but only because they have seen him more than any other team.

Both he and Jeter will get in to Cooperstown on the first try....but a few writers will leave them both off simply to keep them from getting 100%.

I don't know how much he has left but I would not be shocked if NYY makes Papelbon a huge offer when he tests the free agent market this year simply to drive the price up for Boston.

delben91
09-20-2011, 03:32 PM
As silly as the guys are who don't vote for players on the 1st ballot are, it would be downright ridiculous if he was the first unanimous entry.

Anyways, congrats, Mariano, on being lucky enough to end up on the Yankees so you could rack all these saves up. Really fine work there.

Do you really think Rivera has just been lucky all these years? I mean, lucky he was on the Yankees so he had more chances, sure, but he still had to do the job. I will always dislike the Yankees, but Rivera truly is unparalleled in the short history of closers.

SI1020
09-22-2011, 08:37 PM
Another way to look at it. In fact I totally agree.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/New-York-Yankees-Mariano-Rivera-602-saves-record-not-fair-benchmark-for-him-or-predecessors-092111

Nellie_Fox
09-23-2011, 01:03 AM
Another way to look at it. In fact I totally agree.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/New-York-Yankees-Mariano-Rivera-602-saves-record-not-fair-benchmark-for-him-or-predecessors-092111Pretty much what I said above, and I used Gossage as the example.

Noneck
09-23-2011, 01:16 AM
I've never seen a reliever comparable to Rivera.

I have seen better and seen him pitch many times in a Sox uniform. His name is Hoyt Wilhelm.

SI1020
09-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Pretty much what I said above, and I used Gossage as the example. Yes it is. I posted the link it gave some interesting evidence to back up this contention. FWIW I think Rivera has had a stellar career but the media frenzy was a bit much. You'd think that wouldn't happen in this day and age where all stats are broken down in detail, but it has.