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SI1020
09-16-2011, 11:25 AM
That includes Ozzie of course. Is this a prelude to making nice and bringing back everyone? What is going on at this point?

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7681378-417/ken-williams-i-can-work-with-anyone-and-that-includes-ozzie.html

hi im skot
09-16-2011, 11:29 AM
Maybe KW is just trying to ensure he has a job next season.

Rocky Soprano
09-16-2011, 11:36 AM
Is KW the only GM in all of sports that does not have the power to fire the coach/manager?

Lip Man 1
09-16-2011, 11:48 AM
Just a few things randomly went through my mind as I read the story:

1. Now that the ship is sinking everyone has decided to make nice. Where was this earlier in the season, last year etc.?

2. Kenny seems to imply that the issues that have surrounded this club only go back two or three years. They don't. They go back farther. He seems to be in a little bit of denial about that.

We'll see what happens.

Lip

tebman
09-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Is KW the only GM in all of sports that does not have the power to fire the coach/manager?

Yeah, that whole premise seemed weird to me. If you're the General Manager, you generally manage. If that means you think someone needs to be let go for the good of the organization, then you do it.

I don't understand this deference to JR in a personnel matter. I've read all the kvetching on WSI about JR's interference in KW's decisions, but I blew that off as the grumbling of disenchanted fans. Reading this, it appears that at least as far as the field manager is concerned, it's true.

That is not the way to run a railroad.

Jerko
09-16-2011, 12:55 PM
Gee a lot of chatter these past few weeks, first from the manager, and now the GM. Where was all this 5 months ago? You can work with Ozzie but haven't spoken for how long? Yeah right. They can both go fly a kite because IMO the only reason they're saying anything now is because both of their asses are feeling the provervial flame of change. It's a very real possibility that either or both of these guys can be gone, so NOW they go into damage control mode to save their own asses after LETTING this team go to **** this entire year? I hope they both get canned now.

asindc
09-16-2011, 01:04 PM
Gee a lot of chatter these past few weeks, first from the manager, and now the GM. Where was all this 5 months ago? You can work with Ozzie but haven't spoken for how long? Yeah right. They can both go fly a kite because IMO the only reason they're saying anything now is because both of their asses are feeling the provervial flame of change. It's a very real possibility that either or both of these guys can be gone, so NOW they go into damage control mode to save their own asses after LETTING this team go to **** this entire year? I hope they both get canned now.

For the record, KW said on national television before the season started that he has no problem working with Ozzie.

tstrike2000
09-16-2011, 01:06 PM
Ehh, get rid of him, too.

SI1020
09-16-2011, 01:07 PM
For the record, KW said on national television before the season started that he has no problem working with Ozzie. That's all well and good but we know there was a lot of fur flying the last two seasons. In light of Ozzie's most recent vociferous statements I just wonder what it is we Sox fans are being set up for.

blandman
09-16-2011, 01:17 PM
For the record, KW said on national television before the season started that he has no problem working with Ozzie.

Don't believe it! Joe Cowley is behind the scenes, privy to their private disputes!

Jerko
09-16-2011, 01:18 PM
For the record, KW said on national television before the season started that he has no problem working with Ozzie.


True, but this is how they "worked" together this year....

1. Kenny: I'll bring Viciedo up if Ozzie wants him. Ozzie: i'll play him if Kenny brings him up. No communication, nothing, just a big nyah nyah match.

2: Kenny: Ozzie can use whoever gives us the best chance of winning, salaries be damned. Ozzie: still used Dunn and Rios, to the point that some people actually thought he was purposely doing so to show Kenny up for the ****ty moves he's made. I don't think that's true, but if it's even being brought up, that's toxic.


Those 2 situations alone are enough for me to think Kenny is full of hot air by coming out with this now.

PS, I don't think either move would have vaulted the Sox to a division crown, but it would have been nice to see what might have happened if these two crybabies exuded as much energy during the season as they are now.

blandman
09-16-2011, 01:24 PM
True, but this is how they "worked" together this year....

1. Kenny: I'll bring Viciedo up if Ozzie wants him. Ozzie: i'll play him if Kenny brings him up. No communication, nothing, just a big nyah nyah match.

2: Kenny: Ozzie can use whoever gives us the best chance of winning, salaries be damned. Ozzie: still used Dunn and Rios, to the point that some people actually thought he was purposely doing that to show Kenny up. I don't think that's true, but if it's even being brought up, that's toxic.


Those 2 situations alone are enough for me to think Kenny is full of hot air by coming out with this now.


1. Well, he isn't ready yet, so he certainly wasn't then.
2. So people's perceived impressions of a situation makes something toxic? Good grief.

asindc
09-16-2011, 01:24 PM
True, but this is how they "worked" together this year....

1. Kenny: I'll bring Viciedo up if Ozzie wants him. Ozzie: i'll play him if Kenny brings him up. No communication, nothing, just a big nyah nyah match.

2: Kenny: Ozzie can use whoever gives us the best chance of winning, salaries be damned. Ozzie: still used Dunn and Rios, to the point that some people actually thought he was purposely doing that to show Kenny up. I don't think that's true, but if it's even being brought up, that's toxic.


Those 2 situations alone are enough for me to think Kenny is full of hot air by coming out with this now.

PS, I don't think either move would have vaulted the Sox to a division crown, but it would have been nice to see what might have happened if these two crybabies exuded as much energy during the season as they are now.

How is that being full of hot air?

Lip Man 1
09-16-2011, 01:37 PM
It's not, I think his point is that Kenny said one thing so that if Ozzie felt any obligation to play certain guys because of salary it was off the table.

Ozzie continued to play them then told the media just about two weeks ago specifically with Dunn that he "has" to play him because he makes 14 million a year.

It seems these two perhaps unconsciously simply have a fundamnental disconnect on how a team should be constructed and used.

That means one simply must go for the health of the franchise.

Lip

blandman
09-16-2011, 01:44 PM
It's not, I think his point is that Kenny said one thing so that if Ozzie felt any obligation to play certain guys because of salary it was off the table.

Ozzie continued to play them then told the media just about two weeks ago specifically with Dunn that he "has" to play him because he makes 14 million a year.

It seems these two perhaps unconsciously simply have a fundamnental disconnect on how a team should be constructed and used.

That means one simply must go for the health of the franchise.

Lip

Or, more likely, Kenny's words were overruled by the guy really in control. The one writing that $14 million check.

captain54
09-16-2011, 02:39 PM
J
2. Kenny seems to imply that the issues that have surrounded this club only go back two or three years. They don't. They go back farther. He seems to be in a little bit of denial about that.


Lip

That's been a common theme with this organization for quite awhile.. Trying to pump up the fact that the team is "competitive" .. To proclaim that you were in first place at some point in the season and then choked it away, is just a huge attempt at a smokescreen and an attempt to mask the fact that the team has failed

Lip Man 1
09-16-2011, 02:59 PM
Captain:

And you have the larger point of exactly what does "being competitive" mean?

Does it mean challenging in a weak division? Does it mean being strong enough for a legit chance at a deep playoff run?

Lip

JC456
09-16-2011, 03:28 PM
When I heard that KW had told Greg Walker to pack up his locker and leave, and that JR interfered; it became obvious to me that KW is not a true GM. He doesn't have much say so in the daily progress of the club. He is there to go get players to sign and once signed, he has no further say so in the team business. It was very obvious this year with other non player moves in July and August. So, who is the GM of the Chicago White Sox? There isn't one. Is this a way to run a business? Not in my world. GM keeps the team focused and should make adjustments as needed. The Sox weren't the only team who had talented players fail, but other team's went out and did something. heck Detroit replaced three regular players and picked up a pitcher.

I love the Franchise that is the White Sox from my past experiences, I dislike the current businessmen running the organization. And I don't think I'm the only one with those feelings. I gave them six years to repeat 2005 and they have played bad baseball for the majority of that six years. They've looked like some reality baseball team that can't get along. Call it Chicago Shore!

To JR, it would have been nice if you would have kept your hands out of the cookie jar. Why not hire someone you trust! You obviously don't trust Kenny Williams, or you wouldn't have interfered on the Walker thing.

Jerko
09-16-2011, 05:11 PM
It's not, I think his point is that Kenny said one thing so that if Ozzie felt any obligation to play certain guys because of salary it was off the table.

Ozzie continued to play them then told the media just about two weeks ago specifically with Dunn that he "has" to play him because he makes 14 million a year.

It seems these two perhaps unconsciously simply have a fundamnental disconnect on how a team should be constructed and used.

That means one simply must go for the health of the franchise.

Lip

Thanks Lip, that was part of my point. I didn't think I made it that confusing. If anybody actually thinks these 2 can work together, there's not much more I can say. And Kenny, don't sing it, bring it. You just had an entire season to prove you could work with Ozzie, and didn't. Too late now. Sure you can work with him, but it would be nice to work WELL or TOGETHER with him. I can work with anyone too if I ignore them.

RKMeibalane
09-16-2011, 07:09 PM
He couldn't work with Frank Thomas.

captain54
09-16-2011, 07:55 PM
Captain:

And you have the larger point of exactly what does "being competitive" mean?

Does it mean challenging in a weak division? Does it mean being strong enough for a legit chance at a deep playoff run?

Lip

I think the general rule of thumb with the Sox, as long as the current playoff structure has been in place, is to keep the fans interested in
having a team May-Labor Day that's gonna hang around the division lead or wild card.

April to mid-May and September probably arent' gonna pack em in, because of the weather and so forth. So if you can keep the fans interested for 4 months out of the season, you'll have just enough of a buzz to keep the paying customer coming back.

The problem is, the recurring theme has been slow starts and chokes down the stretch. Ozzie's teams were not strong second half teams, and for two years in a row now has had to dig themselves out of hole.

so the answer to the question is yes, it would seem that being "competitive" in a weak divison and hanging around May-August is pretty much the standard the organization has set for itself

A. Cavatica
09-16-2011, 09:20 PM
Captain:

And you have the larger point of exactly what does "being competitive" mean?

Does it mean challenging in a weak division? Does it mean being strong enough for a legit chance at a deep playoff run?

Lip

That depends on whether you aspire to be the Cubs or the Yankees.

JB98
09-17-2011, 03:37 AM
That's been a common theme with this organization for quite awhile.. Trying to pump up the fact that the team is "competitive" .. To proclaim that you were in first place at some point in the season and then choked it away, is just a huge attempt at a smokescreen and an attempt to mask the fact that the team has failed

Adding to this point, here is the most disturbing KW quote in the linked story:

“Aside from the record prior to this tough stretch that we’ve been in, we were right there with the Tigers and Cleveland all year. So we had a shot, and we had a shot in the midst of some guys having some tough seasons.’’

Sigh ... I suppose they "had a shot" in the mathematical sense, but there was never a point in the season where the Sox looked like anything resembling a playoff team. They have been below .500 for nearly the entire year.

I really hope Sox management doesn't think they were "close" this season. The Sox are what their record says they are. What they are is the ninth best team in the American League. Is that considered "competitive"?

They can't bring back this same cast of characters next year and expect different results. Even if some of the underperformers rebound, it's an 85-win team at best.

They aren't close to legitimate pennant contention. That point should have been hammered home when they lost six out of seven to Boston and New York in late July/early August. The fact was made even more obvious with the six straight losses to Detroit this month.

Vernam
09-17-2011, 05:14 AM
Adding to this point, here is the most disturbing KW quote in the linked story:

“Aside from the record prior to this tough stretch that we’ve been in, we were right there with the Tigers and Cleveland all year. So we had a shot, and we had a shot in the midst of some guys having some tough seasons.’’

Sigh ... I suppose they "had a shot" in the mathematical sense, but there was never a point in the season where the Sox looked like anything resembling a playoff team. They have been below .500 for nearly the entire year.

You're right, JB, that's pretty damning. Kenny is in total denial if he feels this team really was or is going to be in contention. The air of resignation in his comments is disturbing. He's resigned to the fact that Reinsdorf will decide who his manager is. He's seemingly resigned to having the same ****ty team (or worse) next year due to the triple albatrosses Dunn, Rios, and Peavy. That seems to be the motivation for his "we were right in the thick of it" comment -- what else can he say if he wants to be back next year?

And sadly, that seems to be his main priority. At some point we'll get well-rehearsed platitudes about how they regret letting the fans down, how next year will be different, etc. But right now, we're getting something close to the unvarnished truth (such as it is from self-serving people in denial) because they're disoriented and haven't got their talking points straight. Reinsdorf clearly hasn't told anyone what he's going to do.

People are partially right to say that the team has been built to contend just long enough each year to keep attendance from cratering. But that was just the outcome, not the intent. It was their worst-case scenario. No one can really claim, with this payroll, that Reinsdorf wasn't doing his best to win another title with Kenny and Ozzie.

Now, though, the worst-case scenario is daily reality. The best they can probably do is pretend to contend until these contracts expire. There's a ****storm of season ticket cancellations about to hit them, and the Sox are not the only MLB team that's going to have trouble staying in the black until there's a major correction across baseball in player salaries and ticket prices, including some adjustment in their deal with the StubHub devil that has introduced more uncertainty than convenience into the ticket market. TV money is propping up the major market teams, but unless the whole economy comes roaring back fast, simply staying afloat is going to look like success for a lot of teams. The Sox were poised to move into an elite class after 2005, but they couldn't get it done. That's the saddest thing here -- the franchise could start to look like damaged goods if attendance is headed where I think it is.

Vernam

Lip Man 1
09-17-2011, 12:21 PM
JB:

Good point. That's something along the lines that Dan Helpingstein has talked about a lot here. The organization is in denial.

They were eight or nine games out by early May.

That's being competitive?

If they think it is, I admire their definition of it.

Lip

Tragg
09-17-2011, 12:35 PM
. The organization is in denial.


They're in job protection mode. They don't seriously believe that they fielded a competitive team this year.

It's all up to JR.

asindc
09-17-2011, 01:40 PM
They're in job protection mode. They don't seriously believe that they fielded a competitive team this year.

It's all up to JR.

I think they thought they fielded a team that should have been competitive, but I agree that they don't really believe the team was actually competitive this year.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2011, 01:50 PM
I think Dan's point (and he can explain himself more fully if he wishes to) is that this "denial" has been going on longer than just this year.

But I agree this season, the way it turned out is probably the focus of eveyone from the front office to the fans.

I would suggest though that the problems came to a head this season but have been going on for at least the past three to four years.

Lip

dickallen15
09-17-2011, 03:27 PM
I think they thought they fielded a team that should have been competitive, but I agree that they don't really believe the team was actually competitive this year.

Yeah, if KW really wants to insult White Sox fans' intelligence, he will continue with the argument the Sox were in contention in September garbage. Its time for him to fall on the sword as he said and admit his team was terrible this season. Spin won't work.

tstrike2000
09-17-2011, 06:10 PM
KW, an 82-80 team is not competitive.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2011, 10:34 PM
They'll be lucky to win 80 games now.

Lip