PDA

View Full Version : Who is to blame most for the situation the Sox are in?


Noneck
09-15-2011, 11:51 PM
I would like to add a new person to this poll, I only remember Williams and Guillen being in previous polls.

voodoochile
09-16-2011, 12:06 AM
I see this as a perfect storm of bad. Many things conspired to derail the team this year. I don't know that I can assign blame for what happened to one person over another. Personally I blame the failure more on Danks early struggles, the team's early closer issues, Peavy never getting back to form and the Rios and Dunn issues.

I tend to blame the players having a crappy year more than I blame the management team. I, like many Sox fans, expected great things from this team. I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd be willing to reboot it and go back at it next year with pretty much the same squad, because I still can't believe how many different ways this team failed this year and the vast majority of the issues I feel were from the players failures on the field.

Noneck
09-16-2011, 12:15 AM
Maybe I should have been more specific. I am not only talking about the poor year they had this year but the overall condition of the franchise.

WhiteSox5187
09-16-2011, 12:18 AM
Maybe I should have been more specific. I am not only talking about the poor year they had this year but the overall condition of the franchise.

The overall shape of the franchise is probably more reflective of Kenny and maybe Jerry as well. The poor year is more reflective on the players and Ozzie.

Lip Man 1
09-16-2011, 12:23 AM
All of the above needs to be included.

There's no way to accurately say..."OK, Ozzie's to blame for 38%, Kenny for 25%..."etc.

Roles and decisions aren't cut and dried, the three main individuals have appeared to step out of what they should be doing at various times for various reasons and by doing so caused repercussions to be felt by the other two.

There's plenty of blame to go around with everyone.

Ultimately, the buck stops with JR...he's the CEO and runs the day to day operations. But I would only blame him for not stepping in sooner and make the needed decisions to remove some people when there was still time to turn things around.

Lip

Noneck
09-16-2011, 12:29 AM
Lip,

I do understand all are to blame for the mess that has happened since the championship. But I am just curious who most see as the one who is most at fault. I respect your opinion if you feel all three contain 33 1/3 % of the fault for this situation.

captain54
09-16-2011, 01:39 AM
.

I here, but I'd be willing to reboot it and go back at it next year with pretty much the same squad, because I still can't believe how many different ways this team failed this year and the vast majority of the issues I feel were from the players failures on the field.

The whole lot of them are one big steaming pile of mediocre. The fans expected more, and maybe the fans set themselves up for the fall, who knows.

Are you clairvoyant? What sort of psychic skills do you possess that gives you the confidence to say that this years not-bad-but-not good bunch are all of sudden gonna play Yankees-Boston-Philly type baseball?

LITTLE NELL
09-16-2011, 05:51 AM
I go with all of the above plus most of the players.

Moses_Scurry
09-16-2011, 05:56 AM
I'm not sure how Ozzie could possibly be to blame for the "overall condition of the franchise". That would mean that he made the decision to bring in the big contracts and decimate the farm system. The best example I can think of a manager ruining the overall shape of a franchise is when Dusty Baker destroyed the arm of Mark Prior. Ozzie has done a very good job of preventing arm injuries (although Coop and Herb are a major part of this). If Ozzie is fired, there will not be any long term effects that carry on after he is gone unless there was a trade for Prince Fielder or Roy Haladay in the works that Ozzie convinced JR to veto that we don't know about.

Kenny and JR are to blame. I don't know what percentage I would give to each.

DumpJerry
09-16-2011, 07:09 AM
I vote for all the fans who bought helmet nachos during the season. It distracted the players who wanted some.

Dan H
09-16-2011, 07:57 AM
Although I voted for Reinsdorf, I am more concerned that the organization realizes what bad a shape it is in and starts doing something about it. I don't expect the team to do much next year. What I am hoping for is significant change that demonstrates the team knows that things aren't working. Many people should not be back next year.

Juice16
09-16-2011, 07:59 AM
I go with all of the above plus most of the players.


I'll go with the players, on paper this is a very good team.

Chez
09-16-2011, 08:32 AM
To me, it's Dunn and Rios.

tebman
09-16-2011, 08:41 AM
To me, it's Dunn and Rios.

:yup:

asindc
09-16-2011, 08:46 AM
The overall shape of the franchise is probably more reflective of Kenny and maybe Jerry as well. The poor year is more reflective on the players and Ozzie.

This is my general assessment as well. The general state of the franchise, whether it be good or bad, is always primarily the responsibility of the owner and GM. Regarding this season, however, I blame the players most and Ozzie to some extent.

Players:
Dunn- 'Nuff said.
Rios- Ditto.
Thornton- His early struggles had much to do with the pressure the team felt playing at home throughout the season, though I blame Ozzie for naming a one-pitch pitcher the closer in the first place.
Beckham- I don't know if Walker tried to 'fix' something that wasn't broken or not, but Gordon has to get his head straight again. The talent and performance he displayed in his rookie season indicates to me that it wasn't a fluke. He needs to make some mechanical adjustments, but I think it's mostly mental with him.
Pierre- He was never as bad as his detractors have said, but his brutal first half contributed in a big way to the negative tone in the clubhouse.
Pauly, Burls, and AJ: As the long-time stalwarts in the clubhouse, I think they bear some responsibility for showing some leadership. This team badly needs some guys that are going to put a foot in some asses when needed.

All the other players performed at about what I expected, for good or bad. Peavy gets an incomplete from me this year because that injury was/is unprecedented. Only Buehrle performed above my expectations this year among the Opening Day roster.



Management:
Ozzie- I'll have more to say about his management at the end of the season, but he contributed to many losses this year and seemed to be part of the losing atmosphere in the clubhouse. I also think he lost this team and became disheartened at the end. Time for a change, for us and him.

KW- As I've said before, I blame him most of all for the sorry state of the scouting and farm system, with the caveat that it might be simply reflect ownership's general philosophy. I don't blame him for Dunn, Rios, and Peavy, though. I think he'll stay because JR won't want to go through a complete overhaul in management staff.

JR- It all starts and stops here.

blandman
09-16-2011, 08:54 AM
To me, it's Dunn and Rios.

I concur.

If I had to assign an order, it would be:

1. Dunn and Rios

1A. Kenny for Peavy, Dunn, and Rios (fair or not), state of the system, thinking Morel is a good enough player, wasting a first round pick on Beckham (fair as that might be).

2. Ozzie for 2010 DH debacle and off field antics

3. JR for trusting KW while watching him decimate the Sox at every level.

TheOldRoman
09-16-2011, 09:13 AM
Ozzie is responsible for horrible managing at times, creating clubhouse distractions, playing Dunn and Rios so much, hitting Dunn and Rios as high as he did, creating an atmosphere where all the players have been frightened of the Twins his entire time here, and most importantly retaining Walker as his hitting coach.

However, Reinsdorf allowed the situation to get to the point where Ozzie was on equal footing with KW personnel wise. Reinsy issued an edict of "Now, now. You be nice to Greg" the one time Walker was criticized bny Guillen, and I'm not sure if Ozzie even had the power to fire Walker after that (KW certainly didn't). You can't blame Reinsy for opening up the pocketbook this year, but there are many things he should have taken care of before this season. I felt after last year that the Kotsay decision was on Ozzie, and he should have taken the fall for it. I felt that the situation with him and KW was unworkable and one needed to leave. This year has been a disaster. KW certainly has his fair share of blame. Ozzie gets a lionshare of the blame for the players underachieving again, but Reinsdorf allowed the team to stay in this situation. I liked that they went out an spent in the offseason, but they overlooked the most fundamental problem. It's like a guy whose wife told him she is thinking about a divorce going out and buying her a new car to try to smooth things over. Sure, the car is nice, and they may have needed it, but it didn't address the root of their problems.

blandman
09-16-2011, 09:21 AM
Ozzie is responsible for horrible managing at times, creating clubhouse distractions, playing Dunn and Rios so much, hitting Dunn and Rios as high as he did, creating an atmosphere where all the players have been frightened of the Twins his entire time here, and most importantly retaining Walker as his hitting coach.



Misleading argument is misleading.

voodoochile
09-16-2011, 10:24 AM
The whole lot of them are one big steaming pile of mediocre. The fans expected more, and maybe the fans set themselves up for the fall, who knows.

Are you clairvoyant? What sort of psychic skills do you possess that gives you the confidence to say that this years not-bad-but-not good bunch are all of sudden gonna play Yankees-Boston-Philly type baseball?

I just think that it's unlikely all these guys will repeat their bad years. I think Peavy will be stronger with another year to recover and no surgeries required this year. I think Dunn won't get off to a bad start which I believe was due to having appendix surgery. I expect Rios to have a year more like he did last year with a full year of higher hands. I also expect both Santos, Sale, Morel to all improve on this year's performance and hope they can find a way to get Beckham more comfortable and confident at the plate.

Didn't say I was any of the things you claim, just what my head and heart tells me that there is too much talent on the team to fail this hard.

I'm actually a bit concerned about the starting pitching. No idea if Humber can continue to pitch like he did, Danks and Buehrle maybe gone and Stewart doesn't impress me so far. Then of course there's the question of IF Peavy will ever return to form and be a top of the rotation starter ever again. Though as I said above, I hope/expect he'll be better next year, the question is how much better.

blandman
09-16-2011, 10:27 AM
I just think that it's unlikely all these guys will repeat their bad years. I think Peavy will be stronger with another year to recover and no surgeries required this year. I think Dunn won't get off to a bad start which I believe was due to having appendix surgery. I expect Rios to have a year more like he did last year with a full year of higher hands. I also expect both Santos, Sale, Morel to all improve on this year's performance and hope they can find a way to get Beckham more comfortable and confident at the plate.

Didn't say I was any of the things you claim, just what my head and heart tells me that there is too much talent on the team to fail this hard.

I'm actually a bit concerned about the starting pitching. No idea if Humber can continue to pitch like he did, Danks and Buehrle maybe gone and Stewart doesn't impress me so far. Then of course there's the question of IF Peavy will ever return to form and be a top of the rotation starter ever again. Though as I said above, I hope/expect he'll be better next year, the question is how much better.


I like the optimism, but I have to disagree with Morel. Two years straight he shows nothing outside of September against AAA guys. He's not a major league starter.

TomBradley72
09-16-2011, 11:03 AM
I like the optimism, but I have to disagree with Morel. Two years straight he shows nothing outside of September against AAA guys. He's not a major league starter.

I'm not so sure- he's hitting .263-6-17 over 174 PA in the 2nd half- with a .766 OPS- seems like the type of progression typical of a rookie.

If his 2nd half is representative of what he's now capable of- it would extrapolate to 18 hrs and 60 rbis over a complete season.

blandman
09-16-2011, 11:15 AM
I'm not so sure- he's hitting .263-6-17 over 174 PA in the 2nd half- with a .766 OPS- seems like the type of progression typical of a rookie.

If his 2nd half is representative of what he's now capable of- it would extrapolate to 18 hrs and 60 rbis over a complete season.

All of that is powered by September. Pun intended.

24thStFan
09-16-2011, 11:28 AM
The overall shape of the franchise is probably more reflective of Kenny and maybe Jerry as well. The poor year is more reflective on the players and Ozzie.

I agree. The "overall condition" of the White Sox is the responsibility of the GM and to a certain degree the owner. JR put up some cash this year, but KW spent it ineffectively. The Dunn contract was record-breaking futility.

Ozzie's pissing contest with KW and the dismal performance by several key players (Dunn, Rios, Beckham, Thornton, etc.) is the reason for the poor year IMHO.

TomBradley72
09-16-2011, 12:25 PM
All of that is powered by September. Pun intended.

Not really- he's been tracking to a good 2nd half all along (with a few extra homers in Sept- not sure how many homers have been off Sept call ups vs. guys that have been in the majors all year).

blandman
09-16-2011, 12:40 PM
Not really- he's been tracking to a good 2nd half all along (with a few extra homers in Sept- not sure how many homers have been off Sept call ups vs. guys that have been in the majors all year).

2 against September callups and 2 against 2nd year guys.

In July and August, he's got 35 hits in 137 at bats and one homer, which is pretty on par with the rest of the year he's had. Those second half stats are entirely September driven.

In 341 non-September plate appearances, Morel's got 16 total extra base hits. In two Septembers, he's got 13. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's driving it. Especially when you look back at his minor league numbers and scout evaluations.

SOXPHILE
09-16-2011, 01:00 PM
:KW:reinsy

"YOU are, Sox fans. If you don't come, and if you don't stop all the negativity, we can't put a winning team out there".

Lip Man 1
09-16-2011, 01:05 PM
I want to amend somewhat my earlier post in this thread based on the new information that came out.

It's clear based on Kenny's comments to Rick Morrissey today in the Sun-Times that JR has much more input in the situation and the way it has degenerated than he and some of the folks in the organization are letting on.

As much as Kenny and Ozzie deserve blame for the past five years, it is VERY unfair to them to take the hit and JR to get off scot-free.

Certainly as owner he should be 'consulted' on big trades, decisions and such after all he is the owner but all the evidence is pointing towards a much deeper involvement and he is NOT a baseball man. That's why he hired a GM and a field manager in the first place. It's their call... bottom line.

From JR stepping into draft decisions, to signing AJ when Kenny was opening negotiations with Olivo, to his remarks during the TV series "the club" last year on getting Jackson, to Kenny today saying it's up to JR to fire Ozzie. His is interfering where he doesn't belong.

A GM should at least have the power to fire a hitting coach.

With respect, in fairness to the fans, and in fairness to Ozzie and Kenny I hope the mainstream media which I can tell you know specific details of how involved JR has now become, will write some stories looking at this area as well.

Sox fans need to know with clarity how dysfunctional this organization has become and everyone who has had a hand in it and specifically how this is complicating an already strained situation.

The other problem in my opinion is that the three individuals have all become to close. Emotions are coming into play instead of making decisions based on facts.

Some distance is needed particularly from the owner with his GM and field manager. If new people are hired I hope JR will learn from this and step back and let people do their jobs.

I'll also again say that if nothing is done, if no one, fair or unfairly are held accountable, the fan backlash this off season is going to be worse than anticipated because of what's happened the past five years.

Lip

blandman
09-16-2011, 01:10 PM
I want to amend somewhat my earlier post in this thread based on the new information that came out.

It's clear based on Kenny's comments to Rick Morrissey today in the Sun-Times that JR has much more input in the situation and the way it has degenerated than he and some of the folks in the organization are letting on.

As much as Kenny and Ozzie deserve blame for the past five years, it is VERY unfair to them to take the hit and JR to get off scot-free.

Certainly as owner he should be 'consulted' on big trades, decisions and such after all he is the owner but all the evidence is pointing towards a much deeper involvement and he is NOT a baseball man. That's why he hired a GM and a field manager in the first place. It's their call... bottom line.

From JR stepping into draft decisions, to signing AJ when Kenny was opening negotiations with Olivo, to his remarks during the TV series "the club" last year on getting Jackson, to Kenny today saying it's up to JR to fire Ozzie. His is interfering where he doesn't belong.

A GM should at least have the power to fire a hitting coach.

With respect, in fairness to the fans, and in fairness to Ozzie and Kenny I hope the mainstream media which I can tell you know specific details of how involved JR has now become, will write some stories looking at this area as well.

Sox fans need to know with clarity how dysfunctional this organization has become and everyone who has had a hand in it and specifically how this is complicating an already strained situation.

The other problem in my opinion is that the three individuals have all become to close. Emotions are coming into play instead of making decisions based on facts.

Some distance is needed particularly from the owner with his GM and field manager. If new people are hired I hope JR will learn from this and step back and let people do their jobs.

I'll also again say that if nothing is done, if no one, fair or unfairly are held accountable, the fan backlash this off season is going to be worse than anticipated because of what's happened the past five years.

Lip

Lip I agree with you, and most of the farm system situation should be on JR. However, KW also treats the minor league system as a petty cash drawer, and that should not be overlooked either.

captain54
09-16-2011, 01:51 PM
I

Didn't say I was any of the things you claim, just what my head and heart tells me that there is too much talent on the team to fail this hard.

.

I just proves that the actual season isn't played on paper. When you lay out all the stats, the team looked like a contender going into 2011. The real barometer was how the team/players performed in direct competition, where all the intangibles, injuries, and non-stat factors come into play.

We all have our heart and heads in the Sox, but ignoring or making an effort to be optimistic for optimisms sake is a bit of a stretch, IMHO

russ99
09-16-2011, 02:00 PM
My order would be

1) Reinsdorf - for giving away a chance of stepping up to the next level due to his budgets since 2006, his lockstep following of Bud on draft slotting; lack of a unified development plan/adequate development budget; and overall lack of respect of the fans as per the constant attendance vs. budget comments.

Had Jerry followed the example of Arte Moreno (who bought the team just after the Angels won the World Series), the Sox and the baseball market would be a lot different.

2) Kenny - for taking too many risks on players, and seemingly disregards scouting (if there is adequate scouting) when picking up name players. Goes after older reclamation projects instead of young quality talent. Seemingly is opposed to resigning our upcoming FAs or buying out FA years early for our younger core players.

Although Kenny probably would have not needed to be such a risk-taker had Jerry not done the above.

3) Greg Walker - He's a heck of a nice guy, but the results aren't there, and haven't been there for 3 years. I don't understand why hitting coach couldn't have been fixed long ago.

4) Ozzie - Dude's had a tough year and seemingly has lost the magic touch, with moves/strategies that have worked in years past aren't working any more. Probably time to move on for his and the team's benefit.

5) Players - especially those cashing big checks without the effort to show for it. Results come and go, all fans ask is that you legitimately try. Didn't see that from more than a few guys this year.

voodoochile
09-16-2011, 02:04 PM
I just proves that the actual season isn't played on paper. When you lay out all the stats, the team looked like a contender going into 2011. The real barometer was how the team/players performed in direct competition, where all the intangibles, injuries, and non-stat factors come into play.

We all have our heart and heads in the Sox, but ignoring or making an effort to be optimistic for optimisms sake is a bit of a stretch, IMHO

Well yeah but a one year sample size compared to career sample size matters, IMO. It's not all about being irrationally optimistic. The numbers back a rebound by the team next year at least offensively.

Edit: I do want to add that I agree with Lip's assessment that the management team is too emotionally entangled especially when it comes to JR's loyalty to players who helped win in 2005. I haven't read the Morrissey article yet, I will later when I get back from lunch. However if indeed KW got undercut by JR re-signing AJ before KW could work on the guy he wanted, it is a problem. Much as I love AJ, it has to be the GM's job to sign the players he deems most suited to team goals.

tstrike2000
09-16-2011, 02:15 PM
There should be an option for all of the above. Kenny's moves haven't panned out, Ozzie's managing, personality, comments, etc, and bad players. I'm in the camp of Ozzie being the primary problem, but nothing about the organization or the play this season has been outstanding.

slavko
09-16-2011, 04:54 PM
Should be easy to place the blame. Just give it to the ones(s) you gave the credit to when the same guys won it all. If you didn't give a certain party credit then, you can't blame them now. Anything else makes you a hypocrite.

Noneck
09-16-2011, 04:54 PM
There should be an option for all of the above. Kenny's moves haven't panned out, Ozzie's managing, personality, comments, etc, and bad players. I'm in the camp of Ozzie being the primary problem, but nothing about the organization or the play this season has been outstanding.


All of the above is obvious if the question was, Who was to blame? I was curious who people thought was most at fault for this situation.

Nelfox02
09-16-2011, 04:59 PM
All of the above is obvious if the question was, Who was to blame? I was curious who people thought was most at fault for this situation.


I guess it is somewhat interesting discussion to look at the train wreck season and sorry state the Sox are in and try to assign blame.....but at this point I am more interested in what can be done to right the ship? What is the best way to get this franchise back to a high level? How quickly can it be done?

tstrike2000
09-16-2011, 05:07 PM
All of the above is obvious if the question was, Who was to blame? I was curious who people thought was most at fault for this situation.

I understand, who's most at fault. Just thinking about it, I just can't remember a season in recent years where there was this much failure at every level.

soxfanatlanta
09-16-2011, 05:24 PM
I'll go with the players, on paper this is a very good team.

Why do people write this stuff? The only paper I focus in are the box scores. And the team look really, really crappy on paper right now; they have a lousy record in a pathetic division. Historical performance might suggest the future, but there are no guarantees.

I lay most of the blame with Kenny for the many of the prior posters' reasons. The fact that the Sox cannot develop any talent from within their organization falls squarely on him as well.

Ozzie is just an annoying side show at this point.

Goose
09-16-2011, 05:26 PM
Why do people write this stuff?

The only paper I focus in are the box scores. And the team look really, really crappy on paper right now; they have a lousy record in a pathetic division.

Historical performance might suggest the future, but there are no guarantees.

Ummm...that's why people write that stuff. Cuz that's what it means.

soxfanatlanta
09-16-2011, 05:33 PM
Ummm...that's why people write that stuff. Cuz that's what it means.
This was written in May, and I nodded my head in agreement. Writing this at the end of a ****ty season is just plain silly.

captain54
09-16-2011, 05:54 PM
Well yeah but a one year sample size compared to career sample size matters, IMO. It's not all about being irrationally optimistic. The numbers back a rebound by the team next year at least offensively.

.

C'mon guy....the whole thing hasn't really come together since mid 06' and you wanna do another re-boot and take a chance maybe just possibly by some happenstance of the stars aligning the entire roster will magically gel and everyone will perform as expected or above for one entire season from April to September.

The entire organization needs a new hard drive, not a re-boot.

voodoochile
09-16-2011, 08:02 PM
C'mon guy....the whole thing hasn't really come together since mid 06' and you wanna do another re-boot and take a chance maybe just possibly by some happenstance of the stars aligning the entire roster will magically gel and everyone will perform as expected or above for one entire season from April to September.

The entire organization needs a new hard drive, not a re-boot.

Well we haven't agreed on the team in a long time so no shock we don't now, but let me be clear. I don't care either way. Blow it up, bring it back, fire Ozzie, KW and all the rest or not. It's something I am not passionate about either way. I'll take what's served next year and hope for the best.

Like I said, I'm more concerned about the starting pitching.

captain54
09-16-2011, 08:57 PM
. I don't care either way. Blow it up, bring it back, fire Ozzie, KW and all the rest or not. It's something I am not passionate about either way. I'll take what's served next year and hope for the best.

.

My life goes on either way as well, however, it is very gratifying to pick up the paper on a daily basis and see your team on the top of the list. And to have your team comfortably in first in September in anticipation of the postseason. Or to tune into a champagne celebration with your team celebrating.

These are some of lifes simple pleasures. Its not make or break, but when you've been following a team for 50 yrs, it's always nice to have your heart warmed and feel that lump in your throat

voodoochile
09-17-2011, 01:22 AM
My life goes on either way as well, however, it is very gratifying to pick up the paper on a daily basis and see your team on the top of the list. And to have your team comfortably in first in September in anticipation of the postseason. Or to tune into a champagne celebration with your team celebrating.

These are some of lifes simple pleasures. Its not make or break, but when you've been following a team for 50 yrs, it's always nice to have your heart warmed and feel that lump in your throat

Agreed, I just don't feel I know the dynamics well enough to make a guess as to what is best. I do think this team can win the division almost as is if they manage to play to their potential. However if they decide to go another direction, I can understand that too and won't be upset. However depending on what changes they make it may determine whether the Sox can compete anytime soon at all. The window on guys like Paulie, Buehrle (if he's here), AJ are closing. There's some solid young/prime age talent on the team but Floyd and Danks have proven inconsistent, Humber is really still a question mark, Peavy and Buehrle are both starting to age and Peavy is coming off a major arm surgery 12 months ago. So regardless of what they do with the offense and management staff, they have to figure out what to do with the pitching because it was a strong point for us this year but that may well be ending.

Hitmen77
09-17-2011, 09:56 AM
All of the above is obvious if the question was, Who was to blame? I was curious who people thought was most at fault for this situation.

I see what you're saying, but I still really can't answer the question. The reason is that each of the people responsible for this mess is in charge of different things.

I'm really disappointed in the way Ozzie has managed and how he's presented himself the last few seasons. But, he's not responsible for the continued lack of talent coming up through the farm system. I find it difficult to say that this makes Ozzie "more at fault" than Kenny (or JR) or vice versa.