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gosox41
09-14-2011, 10:45 PM
I don't want to make this a poll, but what has KW done to deserve to be employed as GM of the Sox next year? He started his reign badly, figured it our from 2004-2006 but then has gotten progressively worse over the last 2-3 years.

He's the biggest reason the Sox are in the predicament we are in. If the Sox somehow maintain a $100 million payroll next year, 40% would be wasted (Peavy, Rios, Dunn). It seems like all KW does is go after veteran players (preferable washed up one's) or journeymen players. So while we're stuck with Peavy, Rios, and Dunn the Diamond backs are enjoying Daniel Hudson. Of course, KW essentially traded Hudson away for Zach Stewart. Who do you think is going to be a better major league pitcher?

KW seems to be getting off easy. He's taken some heat, but the GM's job is player personnel. Bad drafts-blame the GM. Bad FA signings--blame the GM. Bad waiver wire claims--blame the GM.

The last two years Kenny has been bad in all those areas. Whether it's blwoing $4M for one month of a washed up power hitter (who was on steroids but then foced to quit) or claiming a player who needs to go to Oz to get a heart, it's blown up.

We live in a what have we done for me lately world. All I care about is winning and I don't think we've done enough of that. Should Ozzie go? Probably. If OG doesn't want to be here then he should definitely be fired.

Should KW go? I would say definitely. Where is this team going in the next few years? Is KW the guy you want rebuilding this organization?


Bob

Daver
09-14-2011, 10:49 PM
The White Sox will not be rebuilding.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 10:59 PM
I think Kenny will be back next season for two reasons:

1. At his age JR does not want to go through the process of having to potentially hire BOTH a G.M. and a field manager in the same season.

2. I think JR feels that Kenny 'deserves' (only choice of word I can think of) the chance to get himself out of the mess that he played a part in.

Both men, Kenny and Ozzie are guilty the last few years of doing things that have helped lead the franchise down the road that it is at now. It's very unfortunate because I think this could have worked and worked for a long time if both had been a little more honest with each other and would have put aside their huge ego's just a little bit for the benefit of each other and the organization.

Someone has to go, period. They simply can't work together anymore and that is causing more issues with a franchise that already has a number of them.

What I would like to know is, 'what did it?' What was the event or episode that drove the wedge between Kenny and Ozzie and started the ball rolling down the hill?

Was it 'twittergate?', what it the Thome-DH issue?? Was it something else of a personal or private matter???

Lip

Noneck
09-14-2011, 11:01 PM
Once again, I am not convinced Williams has the control everyone thinks he does. If i was sure that there was no meddling from above regarding his responsibilities, I would say it is time for a change. But a change while there is meddling from above will make no difference.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 11:07 PM
Noneck:

History shows that you have some basis for your comment to be sure, but I just 'feel' (that's all I've got right now) that Kenny will have a bigger input in this potential manager's hiring this time around.

Lip

gosox41
09-14-2011, 11:07 PM
The White Sox will not be rebuilding.

Well unless Rios gets a heart, Peavy becomes a medical miracle, and Dunn---well heck, I don't know what to do about Dunn to get him right again we are going to be a 75-80 win team. Maybe 85 if a couple of these 3 fools actually revert to somewho close to the norm.

But with a payroll cut inevitable, we'll be stuck in a bad position. Good enough to maybe win a weak division if some breaks fall our way, but not bad enough to warrant what needs to be done--a true rebuilding. Now I can hear some of those alleged minor league experts (I can think of one in particular but I don't think he posts here anymore) talking about how hard it is to draft good players when you don't have top 10 picks.

So now we can have picks in the mid-teens and draft more football players who play baseball as a second sport or relievers who we hope can convert to good starters.

This ought to be fun.

Is the any reason to be optimistic about the Chicago White Sox baseball club the next few years? I mean on the field stuff not the food and gimmicks.


Bob

Viva Medias B's
09-14-2011, 11:10 PM
The state of our minor league system is why I think no way in hell should KW be our GM next year.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 11:11 PM
Gosox:

Well here's one potentially.

JR is not getting any younger...new ownership could cause a dramatic and complete change in philosophy, attitude...everything that you are talking about.

That could be good, it could be bad but ultimately it's going to come and I'm not suggesting this to wish ill on JR just that it's a reality.

Lip

gosox41
09-14-2011, 11:12 PM
The state of our minor league system is why I think no way in hell should KW be our GM next year.


Exactly. Things have gotten a little better under Buddy Bell. Part of the reason the farm system is so bad is because KW keeps trading away prospects for overpaid vets.

Bob

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 11:14 PM
Viva:

I agree with the point you are making but if Noneck's comments have some truth to them (that Kenny does not have as much control as people think) and if my sources are correct (that JR has injected himself into the draft process and the way the minor league system operates) then Kenny may not be as much to blame for the total state of affairs.

Not defending his record in that area just trying to be fair, remember it was Einhorn who said shortly after he and JR got control that they thought the way to build long term success was through 'smart trades and free agency...'

Lip

billyvsox
09-14-2011, 11:19 PM
I do not want KW back. Cleaning house mean cleaning the house, not tiding up the living room.

Everybody gone (sans cooper)

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 11:21 PM
Billy:

I'd be shocked if that happened. Just doesn't sound like JR is willing to take it to that level.

Lip

fram40
09-14-2011, 11:25 PM
I wish I knew what was happening and how the hell to fix it. I know that I have been a Sox fan since the late '60s - and this season has to be the most frustrating and disappointing in my 40+ years of fandom. Given the state of the payroll - i.e. Dunn, Rios, and Peavy - this may also be the most hopeless I have felt about the Sox prospects.

Besides deciding who general manages and who field manages,there are some major personnel decisions that need to be made by the end of the calendar year, at the latest. How the hell does this team turn it around for 2012?

Of course - I was similarly pessimistic on Opening Day, 2005. So what the **** do I know? Other than the fact this is going to be a fascinating few months coming up for us White Sox fans.

Noneck
09-14-2011, 11:25 PM
Noneck:

History shows that you have some basis for your comment to be sure, but I just 'feel' (that's all I've got right now) that Kenny will have a bigger input in this potential manager's hiring this time around.

Lip
Lip,

I hope that finally becomes the case and for more than just just hiring the manager. I hope Williams has all the authority and responsibility a GM should have. Then we will know what kind of GM he is.

kevingrt
09-14-2011, 11:54 PM
To answer your topic question: No.

Will he be back with the organization? Yes. In what role? I do not know.

PaleHoser
09-14-2011, 11:57 PM
I've been a fan since 1972. There are many seasons I would have been thrilled to be hovering at .500 with two weeks left.

I have no problem bringing Kenny Williams back. Even though his recent high-profile moves have failed, he has at least made moves. There is no wondering "what if".

I do blame him for raising our expectations and increasing our frustrations. I have bought into his mentality that if you don't win the World Series that you have failed.

I still believe the fix is a previously successful major league manager with a proven track record. I think a different voice make unproductive veterans produce again to help the club, or at the very least make themselves attractive enough to be moved at next year's trade deadline.

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2011, 12:00 AM
Kenny has been GM for ten years now and has made the playoffs only twice (both times with Ozzie as his manager). The trademarks of Kenny's teams are to underachieve and up until Ozzie came along defense was a foreign concept to the White Sox.

captain54
09-15-2011, 12:07 AM
I hope Williams has all the authority and responsibility a GM should have. .

He doesn't. That's why it's very unlikely KW will be let go, because JR is just as accountable for any bad moves made by KW. So JR would have to let himself go for any screwy deals.

When you break it down it seems more than likely that KW is the foot soldier and does all the leg work and JR is the ultimate decision maker.

Noneck
09-15-2011, 12:18 AM
He doesn't. That's why it's very unlikely KW will be let go, because JR is just as accountable for any bad moves made by KW. So JR would have to let himself go for any screwy deals.

When you break it down it seems more than likely that KW is the foot soldier and does all the leg work and JR is the ultimate decision maker.

Then it doesnt mean a hill of beans who is the GM as long as that continues.

captain54
09-15-2011, 12:30 AM
Then it doesnt mean a hill of beans who is the GM as long as that continues.

There was an episode of the mlb.com "the Show'" taking an inside look at the WS front office when they signed Edwin Jackson last year, and it was pretty much KW laying the deal out on paper and JR giving the nod.

Noneck
09-15-2011, 12:38 AM
There was an episode of the mlb.com "the Show'" taking an inside look at the WS front office when they signed Edwin Jackson last year, and it was pretty much KW laying the deal out on paper and JR giving the nod.

Its been the getting and signing players, dealing with specific agents, hiring and firing subordinates to the GM, draft choices etc. for many years. Williams is the front man and has got some glory and also gets the heat. (which he is getting here now) This is how this organization is and has been run. I dont see anything changing as long as the chairman is still around, no matter who the GM is.

captain54
09-15-2011, 12:47 AM
Its been the getting and signing players, dealing with specific agents, hiring and firing subordinates to the GM, draft choices etc. for many years. Williams is the front man and has got some glory and also gets the heat.

Falling on the sword for deals your boss had in hand in as far as making the final decision, and also having to sit up there at SoxFest during the Q&A sessions as to why the team blows. Nice gig

Noneck
09-15-2011, 12:49 AM
Falling on the sword for deals your boss had in hand in as far as making the final decision, and also having to sit up there at SoxFest during the Q&A sessions as to why the team blows. Nice gig


If thats your cup of tea.

Tragg
09-15-2011, 12:51 AM
I think KW has done a poor job with personnel the last 3 years.

However, if the Sox want to take one more shot at "Retooling" rather than tearing down, then it's probably wise to keep Williams. His blockbuster trades are generally failures. But, this will take some clever, interesting trades, and he's made more than one of those.

If the Sox want to tear down, start from zero (kind of tough with some of these contracts), then bring someone else in.

kittle42
09-15-2011, 01:43 AM
The state of our minor league system is why I think no way in hell should KW be our GM next year.

Amen.

central44
09-15-2011, 01:53 AM
I'll be honest, the only trade I can't forgive KW for is the Edwin Jackson trade. He gave up top prospects for a mediocre pitcher...I mean, come on.

I can accept the Dunn pickup because his track record suggested that despite high strikeouts, he'd also be an RBI monster, and at the time we had the rotating DH trainwreck. I can accept Rios because he had the potential to be a 30-30 player and perennial all star, while replacing Ozzie-favorite Dewayne Wise and never giving him an excuse to start him ever again. And Peavy was a legit (albeit injury prone) ace when the Sox aquired him for guys who seemed like fringe MLB pitchers at best.

I don't know what type of information KW had at his disposal, but I never would have thought all three of those moves would backfire. Still, the guy aims high and I respect that. If he's back next year, i'll be okay with it, but i'd definitely want to see more emphasis placed on the farm system--drafting better and in particular, developing the talent that comes through.

And cut down on the former football players. I love football, but not when it comes to building a baseball club.

captain54
09-15-2011, 02:31 AM
The state of our minor league system is why I think no way in hell should KW be our GM next year.

That's organizational policy rather than a KW series of decisions

captain54
09-15-2011, 02:33 AM
I'll be honest, the only trade I can't forgive KW for is the Edwin Jackson trade. He gave up top prospects for a mediocre pitcher...I mean, come on.
.

In the "the Show" look at the WS front office, they had the cameras rolling while KW, JR, and all the other power's that be were pow-wowing about this deal and JR commented "it's a no-brainer"

SoxSpeed22
09-15-2011, 02:38 AM
I don't think Kenny wanted to draft all of those cheap sign players, so I don't blame him for our drafts with the scouting and budget the way it is. I would like to see what someone else less stubborn can do. I've always thought that he did a good job on buy-low type of deals, but he's been trying to make the big splash too often.

wassagstdu
09-15-2011, 08:08 AM
I'll be honest, the only trade I can't forgive KW for is the Edwin Jackson trade. He gave up top prospects for a mediocre pitcher...I mean, come on.

I can accept the Dunn pickup because his track record suggested that despite high strikeouts, he'd also be an RBI monster, and at the time we had the rotating DH trainwreck. I can accept Rios because he had the potential to be a 30-30 player and perennial all star, while replacing Ozzie-favorite Dewayne Wise and never giving him an excuse to start him ever again. And Peavy was a legit (albeit injury prone) ace when the Sox aquired him for guys who seemed like fringe MLB pitchers at best.

I don't know what type of information KW had at his disposal, but I never would have thought all three of those moves would backfire. Still, the guy aims high and I respect that. If he's back next year, i'll be okay with it, but i'd definitely want to see more emphasis placed on the farm system--drafting better and in particular, developing the talent that comes through.

And cut down on the former football players. I love football, but not when it comes to building a baseball club.

So KW made those deals to spite Ozzie.

SI1020
09-15-2011, 09:06 AM
So KW made those deals to spite Ozzie. The deals may not have worked out but I wouldn't call that spite. Did you really approve of those two harebrained decisions by Ozzie?

Moses_Scurry
09-15-2011, 09:10 AM
I still believe the fix is a previously successful major league manager with a proven track record. I think a different voice make unproductive veterans produce again to help the club, or at the very least make themselves attractive enough to be moved at next year's trade deadline.

When was the last time the Sox hired a previously successful major league manager? This is an honest question because I don't know the answer. Guillen, Manuel, Bevington, Lamont, Torborg, Fregosi, and LaRussa are as far back as I go as a fan. None of those guys fit the criteria when they were hired.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2011, 09:13 AM
Moses:

Al Lopez.

Stanky and Fregosi and Torborg had previous managing experience at the major league level but not a lot of success.

Lip

Moses_Scurry
09-15-2011, 09:22 AM
Moses:

Al Lopez.

Stanky and Fregosi and Torborg had previous managing experience at the major league level but not a lot of success.

Lip

I figured as much. That is a looooooooong way to go back to be expecting it to happen this year. Daver's choices sound good enough to me. I don't know why he doesn't think any of them will get a call. Martinez, Valentin, and Alomar all sound like perfect JR hires for manager.

Irishsox1
09-15-2011, 10:14 AM
KW should be gone. Peavy, Rios & Dunn were bad deals that Kenny made. He should go, but odds are the new GM will want their own guy so Ozzie would be also in trouble. But if I had to get rid of one guy it would be KW.

russ99
09-15-2011, 10:19 AM
He will, but he shouldn't be.

I have zero confidence that Kenny and the rest of the staff can identify and acquire cost-effective talent. Too much risk taking and chasing after big fish that don't pan out.

If he is back, I'm sure we'll hear yet another "50 cents" speech this winter.

I'm not holding out much hope for a Series contender again until after Jerry sells the team.

Jollyroger2
09-15-2011, 10:23 AM
Of course he should be gone. He probably won't be, but failure, mediocrity, and underachievement have been acceptable with this organization for a long time. He'll probably be back and the Sox will have another weak season.

TomBradley72
09-15-2011, 10:42 AM
When was the last time the Sox hired a previously successful major league manager? This is an honest question because I don't know the answer. Guillen, Manuel, Bevington, Lamont, Torborg, Fregosi, and LaRussa are as far back as I go as a fan. None of those guys fit the criteria when they were hired.

You can go a little further- to include Don Kessinger and Larry Doby in the succession line-Bob Lemon had some success in the early years of KC before joining the White Sox.

blandman
09-15-2011, 10:47 AM
If we're going to try and win next year, KW should stay. If we're going to rebuild, he should go.

kittle42
09-15-2011, 10:52 AM
I have zero confidence that Kenny and the rest of the staff can identify and acquire cost-effective talent. Too much risk taking and chasing after big fish that don't pan out.

If he is back, I'm sure we'll hear yet another "50 cents" speech this winter.

Completely agree.

TomBradley72
09-15-2011, 10:53 AM
My biggest problem with KW has been his handling of the DH role for 2010-2011. Thome was still a productive DH vs, RH's in 2009 -and would have been a relatively cheap/short term deal for 2010. He couldn't hit lefties anymore- so rotating in Konerko/Quentin/Rios, etc vs LH's was the way to go.

Instead- we let Thome go to Minn- replace him with Kotsay/Manny Ramirez- we spend about $5M on those two players vs. what Thome signed for with Minn ($2M?).

Then we go for Dunn at $14M/yr. for 4 years- when I believe it's relatively easy to find cheaper alternatives for a productive DH (aging NL player that can't play the field, young player like Viciedo that doesn't really have a position, etc.)

So $19M later- we still don't have the DH production we had in 2009.

hawkjt
09-15-2011, 11:36 AM
Kenny should stay. Ozzie should go.

I agreed with most of his moves when he made them,especially Dunn and Rios. I was even excited about Peavy.

As far as high picks,he has taken Beckham and Sale recently,and I liked them both.

Sox have not had really high picks that yield the Mauers,Verlanders, and Upton type of prospects. They have had maybe one top ten pick since 1990,right? It is harder to get sure-fire superstars without those picks that the Twins and Tigers had for their horrible years.

Kenny has made some bad trades- Swisher and Hudson related,mainly,but fans overlook the good ones,like Danks, Floyd, Quentin,Konerko,Thornton, Santos,and the signings of Alexei,AJ and Juan.

Every GM makes mistakes,because baseball is a hard game,and players are not robots.
Ozzie has helped create a toxic atmosphere and so someone has to go.

I honestly think that the split started with the non-drafting of Ozzies kid.
Then the firing of Ozney. For Ozzie,family is sacred,and he will never ever forget any percieved insult of his family. He must move on,regretably.

SI1020
09-15-2011, 11:47 AM
I honestly think that the split started with the non-drafting of Ozzies kid.
Then the firing of Ozney. For Ozzie,family is sacred,and he will never ever forget any percieved insult of his family. He must move on,regretably. Both of us may be accused of practicing without a license, but I think you made some very good observations.

PaleHoser
09-15-2011, 11:59 AM
When was the last time the Sox hired a previously successful major league manager? This is an honest question because I don't know the answer. Guillen, Manuel, Bevington, Lamont, Torborg, Fregosi, and LaRussa are as far back as I go as a fan. None of those guys fit the criteria when they were hired.

Good point.

I advocated bringing Cito Gaston on-board back in May. That was the time to pull the trigger - a proven manager who can handle veteran players, with time to turn the season around.

I don't think it's wise to have a $120M+ payroll with a rookie manager, particularly if they played for the Sox. One exception I would make is if we can get a coach from the Angels big league staff to manage.

russ99
09-15-2011, 02:43 PM
When was the last time the Sox hired a previously successful major league manager? This is an honest question because I don't know the answer. Guillen, Manuel, Bevington, Lamont, Torborg, Fregosi, and LaRussa are as far back as I go as a fan. None of those guys fit the criteria when they were hired.

That's been Jerry's M.O. both with the Bulls and Sox.

He rarely goes out and gets an in-demand veteran coach. He made a good call on Thibodeau, though.

doublem23
09-15-2011, 02:51 PM
That's been Jerry's M.O. both with the Bulls and Sox.

He rarely goes out and gets an in-demand veteran coach. He made a good call on Thibodeau, though.

http://smartasssports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Phil-Jackson-pointing.jpg

mahagga73
09-15-2011, 02:51 PM
I think so.Everybody is acting like they weren't happy about Adam Dunn and Jake Peavy now,but at the time most were ecstatic.He's just hit some bad luck lately.The biggest problem is Ozzie has been tuned out by his players,he needs a fresh start and so do the Sox.If the Sox still stink in a couple years then KW is fair game.

Noneck
09-15-2011, 02:54 PM
http://smartasssports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Phil-Jackson-pointing.jpg

When they got him he was a no name. Re upping him was a no choice situation.

LITTLE NELL
09-15-2011, 03:27 PM
I give KW a pass on the mess we are in.
He gave the manager the horses and the manager failed big time with the talent he was given.
Not too many of us were against the moves that KW made at the time they were made.
Most of us thought that picking up Peavy, Rios and Dunne were great moves. Beckham looked like the next Ryne Sandberg.
So what happened, Peavy has been hurt most of the time he has been here. Dunn, Rios and Beckham have stunk up the AL this year and the manager is horrible and has turned into a real insecure jerk.
I also give KW a pass on the farm system as the owners have said on occasion that the minors are overrated and just don't want to spend the money on prospects and instruction.
This will be one interesting off-season. KWs hand are tied with some contracts and he has to decide if Buerhle is re-signed, weather to trade TCQ and Danks or try to extend them. Could be a pivotal year for the franchise, when a big market team is 20th in MLB attendance there is work to be done.

mahagga73
09-15-2011, 03:53 PM
I give KW a pass on the mess we are in.
He gave the manager the horses and the manager failed big time with the talent he was given.
Not too many of us were against the moves that KW made at the time they were made.
Most of us thought that picking up Peavy, Rios and Dunne were great moves. Beckham looked like the next Ryne Sandberg.
So what happened, Peavy has been hurt most of the time he has been here. Dunn, Rios and Beckham have stunk up the AL this year and the manager is horrible and has turned into a real insecure jerk.
I also give KW a pass on the farm system as the owners have said on occasion that the minors are overrated and just don't want to spend the money on prospects and instruction.
This will be one interesting off-season. KWs hand are tied with some contracts and he has to decide if Buerhle is re-signed, weather to trade TCQ and Danks or try to extend them. Could be a pivotal year for the franchise, when a big market team is 20th in MLB attendance there is work to be done.
agreed.I like the young players they have up now so I'm not following about how bad the system is.

asindc
09-15-2011, 04:01 PM
Would anyone trade KW for Brian Sabean? Read paragraphs six, seven, and eight in this column:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6827109/the-case-carlos-beltran

slavko
09-15-2011, 04:38 PM
That's been Jerry's M.O. both with the Bulls and Sox.

He rarely goes out and gets an in-demand veteran coach. He made a good call on Thibodeau, though.

Gar/Pax made the call on Thibodeau. Krause made the original call on Jackson. The GM's not the owner. As long as you brought it up. Don't say JR signed off on it. That's stating the obvious.

Tragg
09-15-2011, 04:41 PM
He will, but he shouldn't be.

I have zero confidence that Kenny and the rest of the staff can identify and acquire cost-effective talent. Too much risk taking and chasing after big fish that don't pan out.
Well said.

doublem23
09-15-2011, 04:58 PM
Well said.

I disagree. In fact, that's the only thing KW's been good at while he's been here. He's been swinging for the fences since Day 1 with poor results (Wells, Ritchie, Clayton, etc.) but I would be willing to bet that more of his reclamation projects and diamonds in the rough turn out gold than the average GM. Obviously there have been some pretty impressive blow-ups (MacDougal, Kotsay) but that's just what happens when you shop in the discount barrell, you find lemons.

All that said, I have no strong feelings on KW. Fire him, keep him, whatever.

Tragg
09-15-2011, 05:09 PM
I disagree. In fact, that's the only thing KW's been good at while he's been here. He's been swinging for the fences since Day 1 with poor results (Wells, Ritchie, Clayton, etc.) but I would be willing to bet that more of his reclamation projects and diamonds in the rough turn out gold than the average GM. Obviously there have been some pretty impressive blow-ups (MacDougal, Kotsay) but that's just what happens when you shop in the discount barrell, you find lemons.

All that said, I have no strong feelings on KW. Fire him, keep him, whatever.
The only effective inexpensive position player that he's brought in since the WS is Quentin, as best I can remember. I guess you can count Alexei (signing).

He's brought in several pitchers who did well.

His blockbusters were mostly in an effort to get a #1 starter. (he paid a blockbuster price for Swisher, but that was just overpaying for what was an above average hitter). And, indeed, the lack of 1, has been a weakness on this staff (we had several pitch that way in the playoffs in the WS year, although they weren't number 1s really). Not many teams have #1 starters....the Phils have 3 of them.

He has dumped a couple of contracts: Teahen and Linebrink.

DickAllen72
09-15-2011, 05:14 PM
Moses:

Al Lopez.

Stanky and Fregosi and Torborg had previous managing experience at the major league level but not a lot of success.

Lip
Wouldn't the most recent be Paul Richards? He certainly had a lot of previous success before Veeck brought him out of retirement in '76. Of course, he had a hard time staying awake at his age but that's another story.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2011, 05:35 PM
Dick:

Paul hadn't managed in over a dozen years when Bill hired him strickly for PR. Richards told Chuck Tanner he didn't want the job and tried to get Chuck to stay on as 3rd base coach saying he'd have the job back in 1977.

Technically you might be correct but in reality, I wouldn't count him as such.

Lip

Dan H
09-15-2011, 05:44 PM
I'd like Williams but he actually traded for a hurt Peavy. I don't understand what his fascination with Rios was and to trade for a veteran like Jackson to keep him a year doesn't make sense to me.

He likes to take risks and that is okay, but I don't totally understand win today or else attitude. I know the Sox fan base is impatient, but he bought himself a little time with '05 championship. Before, Chicago baseball teams hadn't won anything in so long, there was so much pressure to win now. But he resisted the notion that he had to something in '05 and it worked out fine. What was with the risk taking after that?

The result is that team has slid back and now we are six years removed from the World Series. Now there is real pressure to produce. I'd like to see him clean up his own mess, but I don't know if he is capable of doing it. It is time for a new GM.

mahagga73
09-15-2011, 07:27 PM
I'd like Williams but he actually traded for a hurt Peavy. I don't understand what his fascination with Rios was and to trade for a veteran like Jackson to keep him a year doesn't make sense to me.

He likes to take risks and that is okay, but I don't totally understand win today or else attitude. I know the Sox fan base is impatient, but he bought himself a little time with '05 championship. Before, Chicago baseball teams hadn't won anything in so long, there was so much pressure to win now. But he resisted the notion that he had to something in '05 and it worked out fine. What was with the risk taking after that?

The result is that team has slid back and now we are six years removed from the World Series. Now there is real pressure to produce. I'd like to see him clean up his own mess, but I don't know if he is capable of doing it. It is time for a new GM.
I'm pretty sure the Rio's thing was to keep him away from a division rival.

asindc
09-15-2011, 07:35 PM
I'm pretty sure the Rio's thing was to keep him away from a division rival.

I'm pretty sure that is just an unsubstantiated rumor.

Tragg
09-15-2011, 07:36 PM
I'm pretty sure the Rio's thing was to keep him away from a division rival.

That makes it even a more ridiculous move; tie yourself up for 4 years so someone else doesn't get him?

hi im skot
09-15-2011, 07:51 PM
I'm pretty sure that is just an unsubstantiated rumor.

Yep. I think KW really saw it as a quick fix for the annual CF trainwreck that is the post-2005 White Sox.

TomBradley72
09-15-2011, 07:58 PM
Yep. I think KW really saw it as a quick fix for the annual CF trainwreck that is the post-2005 White Sox.

+1 and with nothing at all coming in the farm system and no real trade bait to work with to plug the hole in CF that couldn't be filled by Brian Anderson, Jerry Owens, Darren Erstad, Rob Mackowiak, DeWayne Wise, Nick Swisher and Ken Griffey, Jr.

Vernam
09-15-2011, 09:01 PM
The trademarks of Kenny's teams are to underachieve and up until Ozzie came along defense was a foreign concept to the White Sox.

That's an important point. I give credit to Ozzie for favoring third-basemen, for example, who field first and hit second. And putting Uribe at short was a gutsy move that solidified our defense back in '05. I'd hate to see a return to the days when defense was an afterthought.

To answer the question about Kenny's return, I have to admit he may deserve to be fired. But his behavior looks downright classy compared to Guillen's, and I wouldn't blame Reinsdorf for not wanting to totally clean house with both a new GM and manager. To be extremely charitable, you could argue that Kenny deserves the chance to turn things around with a new manager who doesn't constantly snipe at him through surrogates in the press and Twitter. I wouldn't be surprised if Reinsdorf thinks he owes that to Kenny after the past few years of Guillen's bull****.

I'm not convinced at all that Kenny is the guy to transform this team. The types of players that he favors (and I don't just mean the over-priced kind, who are the most common variety in MLB) are the ones who got us in this mess. But I'll support him and the team if he's back in 2012. If Ozzie is back, I will not support this team, and I've made that clear to the season ticket office.

Vernam

Vernam
09-15-2011, 09:06 PM
Kenny should stay. Ozzie should go.

I agreed with most of his moves when he made them,especially Dunn and Rios. I was even excited about Peavy.

As far as high picks,he has taken Beckham and Sale recently,and I liked them both.

Sox have not had really high picks that yield the Mauers,Verlanders, and Upton type of prospects. They have had maybe one top ten pick since 1990,right? It is harder to get sure-fire superstars without those picks that the Twins and Tigers had for their horrible years.

Kenny has made some bad trades- Swisher and Hudson related,mainly,but fans overlook the good ones,like Danks, Floyd, Quentin,Konerko,Thornton, Santos,and the signings of Alexei,AJ and Juan.

Every GM makes mistakes,because baseball is a hard game,and players are not robots.
Ozzie has helped create a toxic atmosphere and so someone has to go.

I honestly think that the split started with the non-drafting of Ozzies kid.
Then the firing of Ozney. For Ozzie,family is sacred,and he will never ever forget any percieved insult of his family. He must move on,regretably.

Couldn't have said it any better. :thumbsup:

Vernam

WhiteSox5187
09-15-2011, 09:17 PM
I'm pretty sure that is just an unsubstantiated rumor.

I recall reading on ESPN (it might have been a Jayson Stark column) that the White Sox WERE primarily trying to block the Tigers.

Nellie_Fox
09-16-2011, 12:57 AM
I'm pretty sure the Rio's thing was to keep him away from a division rival.Who is the Rio?

voodoochile
09-16-2011, 01:07 AM
Yes...