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doublem23
09-14-2011, 06:12 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/7643768-574/ozzie-guillen-eyes-end-of-line-with-sox-says-hes-ready-for-anything.html

It's Cowley, so take that FWIW

Frater Perdurabo
09-14-2011, 07:41 AM
Cowley says the Sox will be "irrelevant" without Ozzie.

Being ten games back in the division isn't irrelevant now?

What Cowley should say is that without a manager for whom he can be the mouthpiece, he'll actually have to work.

What's the over-under on the number of days before Cowley applies for a job with the Miami Herald?

russ99
09-14-2011, 07:48 AM
Cowley says the Sox will be "irrelevant" without Ozzie.

Being ten games back in the division isn't irrelevant now?

What Cowley should say is that without a manager for whom he can be the mouthpiece, he'll actually have to work.

What's the over-under on the number of days before Cowley applies for a job with the Miami Herald?

It is Cowley, so take that with a grain of salt.

But by keeping Kenny and letting Ozzie and at least some of the coaches go, that would be making a convenient change of face, but keep the exact same culture in place that causes such underachievement.

The only thing that makes sense here is that they take care of Ozzie and the coaches first, then deal with GM after the fact.

So while the Ozzie haters are surely foaming at the mouth, if the Sox do this and not shake up the organization, there's a much better chance that the Sox will be right where they are or worse the next few seasons.

GoSox2K3
09-14-2011, 07:52 AM
It is Cowley, so take that with a grain of salt.

But by keeping Kenny and letting Ozzie and at least some of the coaches go, that would be making a convenient change of face, but keep the exact same culture in place that causes such underachievement.

The only thing that makes sense here is that they take care of Ozzie and the coaches first, then deal with GM after the fact.

So while the Ozzie haters are surely foaming at the mouth, if the Sox do this and not shake up the organization, there's a much better chance that the Sox will be right where they are or worse the next few seasons.

There you go again! :rolleyes:

That's been your m.o. all season. Just insult anyone who criticizes Ozzie was being either "ridiculous" or a "hater" or "foaming at the mouth". I guess if you don't have any strong arguments to stand on, just insult everyone else and see what sticks!

tstrike2000
09-14-2011, 07:53 AM
Cowley says the Sox will be "irrelevant" without Ozzie.

Being ten games back in the division isn't irrelevant now?

What Cowley should say is that without a manager for whom he can be the mouthpiece, he'll actually have to work.

What's the over-under on the number of days before Cowley applies for a job with the Miami Herald?

I think the only people who believe Ozzie makes the Sox relevant now are Fox and ESPN announcers when the Sox play on there.

GoSox2K3
09-14-2011, 07:54 AM
I think the only people who believe Ozzie makes the Six relevant now are Fox and ESPN announcers when the Six play on there.

Which 6 players are we talking about here? :tongue:

tstrike2000
09-14-2011, 07:56 AM
Which 6 players are we talking about here? :tongue:

Oops! Fixed my typo. Finding six players that make the Sox relevant outside of Konerko is an even harder task.

Brewski
09-14-2011, 09:08 AM
Cowley's probably right. Not that he knows any more than us, he's just reading the tea leaves. Unless an anonymous source whose name shall remain Ozzie clued him in. I hope JR does it himself instead of delegating it to KW. After dealing with the top guy to have a firing delegated would be classless. That being said, KW should be the guy hiring the new manager, understanding that the boss has to sign off on it.

So Kenny survives. If it were only that easy to get rid of the three white elephants and create a farm system out of thin air. So change the manager and coaches and hope the real problem, the players, turn into something they are not.

Not feeling too good here, not looking forward to better times very soon.:(:

russ99
09-14-2011, 09:15 AM
There you go again! :rolleyes:

That's been your m.o. all season. Just insult anyone who criticizes Ozzie was being either "ridiculous" or a "hater" or "foaming at the mouth". I guess if you don't have any strong arguments to stand on, just insult everyone else and see what sticks!

Sorry, if a group and posters can be singled out (often by name) and labeled "ozzapologists" as if their opinion doesn't count, then I can use "ozzie haters" to label those who want Ozzie gone.

Plus nobody can deny that there's a massive amount of angst about Ozzie on this board.

I don't mean to insult anyone, I just think that many of the arguments pushing for Ozzie to be fired are baseless and I'm using similar colorful language as other posters.

blandman
09-14-2011, 09:20 AM
There you go again! :rolleyes:

That's been your m.o. all season. Just insult anyone who criticizes Ozzie was being either "ridiculous" or a "hater" or "foaming at the mouth". I guess if you don't have any strong arguments to stand on, just insult everyone else and see what sticks!

It would help if they only expressed hatred and ridicule for things Ozzie was responsible, instead of raging and picking on every little thing regardless of circumstance or blame and pinning it on Ozzie.

I think Ozzie should go if we rebuild. But if between GM and manager one has to go, the OBVIOUS choice is KW.

hi im skot
09-14-2011, 09:30 AM
I think Ozzie should go if we rebuild. But if between GM and manager one has to go, the OBVIOUS choice is KW.

Nah.

kittle42
09-14-2011, 09:42 AM
Ozzie and coaches on 9/29. KW on 9/30.

Make it happen, Jerry!

doublem23
09-14-2011, 09:43 AM
Nah.

Agreed. I don't really have any strong feelings on KW one way or another, if he stays cool, if he leaves, fine. But Ozzie could have been fired yesterday, for all I care.

asindc
09-14-2011, 09:44 AM
Cowley's probably right. Not that he knows any more than us, he's just reading the tea leaves. Unless an anonymous source whose name shall remain Ozzie clued him in. I hope JR does it himself instead of delegating it to KW. After dealing with the top guy to have a firing delegated would be classless. That being said, KW should be the guy hiring the new manager, understanding that the boss has to sign off on it.

So Kenny survives. If it were only that easy to get rid of the three white elephants and create a farm system out of thin air. So change the manager and coaches and hope the real problem, the players, turn into something they are not.

Not feeling too good here, not looking forward to better times very soon.:(:

Sir, have you been paying attention to the games themselves?

blandman
09-14-2011, 09:50 AM
Agreed. I don't really have any strong feelings on KW one way or another, if he stays cool, if he leaves, fine. But Ozzie could have been fired yesterday, for all I care.

Just about every Ozzie "issue" that's been spatted about on this board in the last two months has been a KW issue. That includes the "not really competing" year in and year out you like to chime about. The on field product is not elite. You can only blame one person for that, if you're going to. And it ain't Ozzie.

Chez
09-14-2011, 09:56 AM
Without commenting on whether it's "right" or "deserved," I think Cowley's prediction will, in fact, happen. Ozzie goes, Kenny stays.

beasly213
09-14-2011, 10:04 AM
I think they both need to go. Or at least "Promote" Kenny so Han can take over. Kenny Williams has a history of having to get "His Guy" no matter what the cost.

Peavy, Dunn, Griffy, Quentin, etc, without taking the time to bother looking into the type of player he is outside of the numbers.

Peavy and Dunn have both proven to be mentally weak and star NL-only players.

Both of these guys are owed a ton of money and unless something drastic happens next year are going to be busts.

As a GM Kenny should be taking the time to analyze "Will this player be a fit in the American League? "Can this player handle the pressure of playing in a large market with an impatient fan base?" And time and time again it seems like he simply gets caught up in the numbers the guys put up instead of the whole package.

I want them both gone next year, but if I have to chose one or the other I'll keep Ozzie and get rid of Kenny.

doublem23
09-14-2011, 10:04 AM
Just about every Ozzie "issue" that's been spatted about on this board in the last two months has been a KW issue. That includes the "not really competing" year in and year out you like to chime about. The on field product is not elite. You can only blame one person for that, if you're going to. And it ain't Ozzie.

That's fine. I am not interested in assigning blame and seeking revenge on people, I am much more interested in retaining people I think will help the Sox win going forward and getting rid of those who will not. You're right, KW is culpable for the bad contracts that have saddled this team for the near future, but he is also continued to have savvy eye for cheap, young talent. Humber and De Aza are the best two examples from this year. They're not stars, but they are capable players that don't make any money. The Sox are going to need to be creative with their payroll. I think KW fits that bill.

That said, as I stated, I don't feel strongly one way or the other. If the Sox decide to axe KW, too, that'd be OK with me, as long as they find another GM capable of operating on a very limited budget in the short-term.

Ozzie, however, I am ****ing sick of. I'm sick of his little antics. I'm sick of his terrible in-game managament. I'm sick of his whiny, defensive bull**** everytime someone asks him a tough question. I'm sick of his embarrassing, stupid kids. I'm sick of his crew of former player coaches. I'm sick of him openly pining for a new deal in the middle of a pennant race. I don't like him as the manager of my favorite team. You're right, probably a lot of this team's underachieving was out of his control, but what I have seen that was in his control (his lineup, his in-game strategy, etc.) was terrible. I'm tired of him, I think a lot of the guys in the clubhouse are tired of him, and as long as he's forced to be #2 to KW, I don't think it's going to get better. So fire him and see what happens.

kaufsox
09-14-2011, 10:08 AM
Cowley says the Sox will be "irrelevant" without Ozzie.

Being ten games back in the division isn't irrelevant now?

What Cowley should say is that without a manager for whom he can be the mouthpiece, he'll actually have to work.

What's the over-under on the number of days before Cowley applies for a job with the Miami Herald?

don't know if you listen to the Score at all, but a really good point made by Matt Spiegel and led to a bit of a ruckus with Cowley was that Spiegs said that Cowley is so close to Ozzie and so distant from KW that if Oz leaves, Cowley is frozen out. I don't know how much I trust Cowley, but one of them has to go.

kaufsox
09-14-2011, 10:10 AM
I think they both need to go. Or at least "Promote" Kenny so Han can take over.

Han take over? Is he a scoundrel? This team could use more scoundrels.

doublem23
09-14-2011, 10:11 AM
I think they both need to go. Or at least "Promote" Kenny so Han can take over. Kenny Williams has a history of having to get "His Guy" no matter what the cost.

Peavy, Dunn, Griffy, Quentin, etc, without taking the time to bother looking into the type of player he is outside of the numbers.

Peavy and Dunn have both proven to be mentally weak and star NL-only players.

Both of these guys are owed a ton of money and unless something drastic happens next year are going to be busts.

As a GM Kenny should be taking the time to analyze "Will this player be a fit in the American League? "Can this player handle the pressure of playing in a large market with an impatient fan base?" And time and time again it seems like he simply gets caught up in the numbers the guys put up instead of the whole package.

I want them both gone next year, but if I have to chose one or the other I'll keep Ozzie and get rid of Kenny.

I'm sorry, I really don't understand this kind of thinking. How does handing the keys over to Hahn from KW really change anything? Hahn's been the #2 guy in the organization for years, his hands are all over this mess of a roster, as well. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but he's basically KW Lite at this point. And, to go with your second point, he's definitely seen as much more of the "numbers" guy in the front office as opposed to KW, who is much more old school.

Hitmen77
09-14-2011, 10:13 AM
Han take over? Is he a scoundrel? This team could use more scoundrels.

:rolling:

Never tell him the odds!:redneck

Goose
09-14-2011, 10:13 AM
ozzie and coaches on 9/29. Kw on 9/30.

Make it happen, jerry!

qft

asindc
09-14-2011, 10:14 AM
I'm sorry, I really don't understand this kind of thinking. How does handing the keys over to Hahn from KW really change anything? Hahn's been the #2 guy in the organization for years, his hands are all over this mess of a roster, as well. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but he's basically KW Lite at this point. And, to go with your second point, he's definitely seen as much more of the "numbers" guy in the front office as opposed to KW, who is much more old school.

Doub,

I've been asking a similar question for months now, with no response coming forth: What makes anyone think that changing GMs will automatically change the organization's philosophy on scouting, drafting, development, and veteran player acquisition, especially if Hahn is promoted to GM?

hi im skot
09-14-2011, 10:25 AM
I think they both need to go. Or at least "Promote" Kenny so Han can take over. Kenny Williams has a history of having to get "His Guy" no matter what the cost.

Peavy, Dunn, Griffy, Quentin, etc, without taking the time to bother looking into the type of player he is outside of the numbers.

Peavy and Dunn have both proven to be mentally weak and star NL-only players.

Both of these guys are owed a ton of money and unless something drastic happens next year are going to be busts.

As a GM Kenny should be taking the time to analyze "Will this player be a fit in the American League? "Can this player handle the pressure of playing in a large market with an impatient fan base?" And time and time again it seems like he simply gets caught up in the numbers the guys put up instead of the whole package.

I want them both gone next year, but if I have to chose one or the other I'll keep Ozzie and get rid of Kenny.

Dunn (and to a lesser extent, Peavy) have been huge disappointments. I have no problem with trading a few spare parts for Griffey, and Quentin was a total bargain.

It's too early to call Dunn a bust; yes, he's been historically bad this season, but I'm willing to give him a chance to get back to his statistical norms next season.

Peavy has been a disappointment, but his injuries have been pretty fluky. I'm not a huge fan, but I'm not sure I'd call him mentally-weak; dude is frustrated that the injury bug has bit him and he can't contribute as much as he believes he can.

KW doesn't have a crystal ball, so he (like every other GM in baseball) is taking a chance when he picks up a player. And maybe Kenny focuses on the numbers, but it's funny that folks are clamoring for Hahn when he's a known numbers guy himself.

It's a lousy situation for the organization. I can't pretend to know the answers, but I'm hopeful someone can figure this mess out.

TheOldRoman
09-14-2011, 10:27 AM
If true, good. I would prefer KW to leave also, but Ozzie and Walker are the most imporant anchors to ditch.

Scottiehaswheels
09-14-2011, 10:31 AM
Call me crazy here but with all the Crede stufff lately, anyone else get the feeling that he might be getting felt out for the manager gig?

FielderJones
09-14-2011, 10:33 AM
Call me crazy here but with all the Crede stufff lately, anyone else get the feeling that he might be getting felt out for the manager gig?

Too young, inexperienced.

Rocky Soprano
09-14-2011, 10:33 AM
Call me crazy here but with all the Crede stufff lately, anyone else get the feeling that he might be getting felt out for the manager gig?

No way.

asindc
09-14-2011, 10:33 AM
Call me crazy here but with all the Crede stufff lately, anyone else get the feeling that he might be getting felt out for the manager gig?

As long as it is for Manager of Kannapolis, I've got no problem with it.

hi im skot
09-14-2011, 10:33 AM
Call me crazy here but with all the Crede stufff lately, anyone else get the feeling that he might be getting felt out for the manager gig?

You're crazy. :cool:

doublem23
09-14-2011, 10:37 AM
Call me crazy here but with all the Crede stufff lately, anyone else get the feeling that he might be getting felt out for the manager gig?

No, especially considering Crede himself was quoted in the Tribune today that he's not interested in starting a coaching career until later in life, when his children are older.

Scottiehaswheels
09-14-2011, 10:41 AM
No, especially considering Crede himself was quoted in the Tribune today that he's not interested in starting a coaching career until later in life, when his children are older.
Ok, just seemed odd timing for all the Crede love all of a sudden. I hadn't read that article but it is interesting that the idea came up.

beasly213
09-14-2011, 10:49 AM
I'm sorry, I really don't understand this kind of thinking. How does handing the keys over to Hahn from KW really change anything? Hahn's been the #2 guy in the organization for years, his hands are all over this mess of a roster, as well. I'm sure he's a smart guy, but he's basically KW Lite at this point. And, to go with your second point, he's definitely seen as much more of the "numbers" guy in the front office as opposed to KW, who is much more old school.

See I think KW wants to portray the image of being an "old school" guy but his history shows us he's really not. I think Kenny likes the idea of being a "look beyond the numbers" type of GM but he doesn't seem to put the work into what that actually means.

Jake Peavy is an example of being a great guy on paper and a great guy "beyond the numbers" being tough and wanting the ball all the time and a great go get um kinda guy but really he's just a whiney injury prone, complainer who can't hack it in the AL.

Then look at Adam Dunn a great guy on paper but then when times get tough he does an interview where he talks about wanting to quit. This is not the type of player I want my team giving a huge contract too and yet Kenny did.

PaleHoser
09-14-2011, 10:54 AM
I don't think he gets fired. I think a deal gets worked out where he "chooses" to go to Florida so he can save face.

If I'm working on this from the Sox side, I hope they work some kind of ironclad non-disclosure agreement about people and the organization that will limit his comments once he's gone.

Otherwise, it's going to turn into him whining to the media about how he brought a World Championship but was disrespected in some way or another. And it will be constant, particularly every time the Marlins make a stop in Chicago.

My latest problem with Ozzie? I didn't watch the game last night, but how does Konerko, the best fastball hitter on the team sit against Verlander but Rios plays against both Verlander and the day after a night game. :scratch:

:gah:

He can't leave fast enough to suit me.

soltrain21
09-14-2011, 11:02 AM
I don't think he gets fired. I think a deal gets worked out where he "chooses" to go to Florida so he can save face.

If I'm working on this from the Sox side, I hope they work some kind of ironclad non-disclosure agreement about people and the organization that will limit his comments once he's gone.

Otherwise, it's going to turn into him whining to the media about how he brought a World Championship but was disrespected in some way or another. And it will be constant, particularly every time the Marlins make a stop in Chicago.

My latest problem with Ozzie? I didn't watch the game last night, but how does Konerko, the best fastball hitter on the team sit against Verlander but Rios plays against both Verlander and the day after a night game. :scratch:

:gah:

He can't leave fast enough to suit me.

Because the season is over and it doesn't really matter who plays anymore?

StillMissOzzie
09-14-2011, 11:03 AM
Call me crazy here but with all the Crede stufff lately, anyone else get the feeling that he might be getting felt out for the manager gig?

You asked for it - you are crazy. No way Crede being considered, IMHO. No coaching or managerial experience at ANY level. In other words, a perfect fit!

SMO
:gulp:

The Critic
09-14-2011, 11:08 AM
I don't think he gets fired. I think a deal gets worked out where he "chooses" to go to Florida so he can save face.

If I'm working on this from the Sox side, I hope they work some kind of ironclad non-disclosure agreement about people and the organization that will limit his comments once he's gone.

Otherwise, it's going to turn into him whining to the media about how he brought a World Championship but was disrespected in some way or another. And it will be constant, particularly every time the Marlins make a stop in Chicago.

My latest problem with Ozzie? I didn't watch the game last night, but how does Konerko, the best fastball hitter on the team sit against Verlander but Rios plays against both Verlander and the day after a night game. :scratch:

:gah:

He can't leave fast enough to suit me.

Unless they can somehow extend the gag order to his kids, all kinds of venom will spew once Ozzie's gone.

SBSoxFan
09-14-2011, 11:13 AM
Cowley's probably right. Not that he knows any more than us, he's just reading the tea leaves. Unless an anonymous source whose name shall remain Ozzie clued him in. I hope JR does it himself instead of delegating it to KW. After dealing with the top guy to have a firing delegated would be classless. That being said, KW should be the guy hiring the new manager, understanding that the boss has to sign off on it.

So Kenny survives. If it were only that easy to get rid of the three white elephants and create a farm system out of thin air. So change the manager and coaches and hope the real problem, the players, turn into something they are not.

Not feeling too good here, not looking forward to better times very soon.:(:

If Ozzie does go, I hope it doesn't turn into a Notre Dame-without-Lou-Holtz future.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 11:25 AM
Russ:

You don't think changing the field manager and at least three of his staff, all of whom have been here for eight years doesn't change things in the organization? Not at all???

That's very hard to believe given the power to impact games on a day to day basis that they have. As well as the preparation work in the spring.

The bottom line is this. The two don't get along, that appears to be a very real fact. You can't have any organization fighting itself and expect to succeed long term. A coherent philosophy needs to play out from the top down. SOMEONE simply has to go, fair or unfair...right or wrong.

It's simply not working the way it is.

And I don't think Ozzie will stoop to embarrassing JR on his way out of town. I simply don't think he'd do that. Now his kids, particularly one in particular? I would assume they'll be dropping as many insults and bombs as they can.

Lip

thomas35forever
09-14-2011, 11:48 AM
I'm guessing JR is telling KW to clean up his own mess. Sounds like Ozzie will be taking a hike after the season.

Goose
09-14-2011, 11:51 AM
And I don't think Ozzie will stoop to embarrassing JR on his way out of town. I simply don't think he'd do that. Now his kids, particularly one in particular? I would assume they'll be dropping as many insults and bombs as they can.

I think you are right about Ozzie not embarrassing JR, at least, I think that he will not do it intentionally. I do think that Ozzie will have his departing comments about KW, fans, etc., however. I think he won't be able to control himself.

It would be fun to have a "What Will Ozzie Say On His Way Out" prediction thread, though. His kid(s) are already loading their pistols, I am sure.

History proves that there will be insults thrown around. Bobby Jenks comes to mind, Teahen as well. Was anything said about Swisher? I can't remember...

hawkjt
09-14-2011, 12:16 PM
I have been a staunch supporter of both KW and Ozzie all along.
Call me dumb,but loyal,I guess, as 2005 will never be forgotten for me.

Now,that said, both guys have made mistakes in recent years that have hurt the Sox. I believe much of the decision-making was mutual,and some of them have backfired. Both guys get splattered with the debris.

It seems clear that Ozzie wants out,since his mouthpiece Cowley is saying it.
I hope the Sox contact the Marlins, work out a deal,and move Ozzie on to a job he seems to covet,so he can be in baseball,but out of the AL.

While Kenny has made mistakes, I think that is the nature of that job. If anyone has a crystal ball,they could excel,but no one does,so gambling is part of the deal. I loved the Dunn signing,and so I refuse to hammer Kenny for that move. I did not hate the Peavy and Rios moves, so I hold fire on those moves. I did not hate the Jackson-Hudson trade,but I do hold Kenny responsible for it. I did not like the Swisher for Gio/Sweeney trade,so hold him to account for that one.
The Swisher to the Yanks trade I was in favor of to get rid of Swish.

So, overall, Kenny gets a pass from me. He gambled on some guys,and they burned him.
Dombrowski was absolutely getting roasted for the Cabrera signing when Cabrera got wasted with Freddy on the last weekend of the season and the Tigers choked the lead away to the Twins....sometimes the worm does turn.
Dombrowski has been on a roll since then...Peralta,Carbrera,Martinez,Young and Fister were all instant winners.
Of course,he also traded for the expensive Marlin pitcher who crapped out also.

If Ozzie is gone,make one last trade,Kenny,and get something from the Marlins for him.

Goose
09-14-2011, 12:26 PM
If Ozzie is gone,make one last trade,Kenny,and get something from the Marlins for him.

FL is not going to give anything up for Ozzie. KW should try, but we as fans should not expect anything of value, if anything at all. The Marlins know Ozzie is on his way out one way or another. Either he gets canned, or Ozzie leave on his own because he does not want to play out the last year of his contract with no security in future years.

Relieving Ozzie of his duties is a good first move, but only a partial resolution. KW needs to go as well, as many others have stated earlier. With KW and Oz gone, the rest of the coaching staff is also gone. That is the kind of change I can get behind. The only value the Sox have right now is Coop. Hopefully the new manager holds onto him, and Coop agrees to stay.

The rest of them? Thanks for '05...see ya at the reunion.

russ99
09-14-2011, 12:51 PM
Russ:

You don't think changing the field manager and at least three of his staff, all of whom have been here for eight years doesn't change things in the organization? Not at all???

That's very hard to believe given the power to impact games on a day to day basis that they have. As well as the preparation work in the spring.

The bottom line is this. The two don't get along, that appears to be a very real fact. You can't have any organization fighting itself and expect to succeed long term. A coherent philosophy needs to play out from the top down. SOMEONE simply has to go, fair or unfair...right or wrong.

It's simply not working the way it is.

And I don't think Ozzie will stoop to embarrassing JR on his way out of town. I simply don't think he'd do that. Now his kids, particularly one in particular? I would assume they'll be dropping as many insults and bombs as they can.

Lip

No, I think the flaws of the organization are much deeper.

IMO the whole "Ozzie's distractions" aired out in the press have very little to do with the day to day workings of the clubhouse.

IF Jerry acts like a big market owner and invests in the draft and player development; rewards our core players with market value extensions instead of counting down to when they can ditch them before free agency; and hires staff on merit other than cost and/or if they are "Sox family"...

IF Kenny can put his ego aside and make deals to build the team instead of taking crazy risks on flashy players, and bring in young talented players other than older half-washed up veterans or promoting not-ready kids just to fill a spot...

IF the club can put aside the old notion that the Sox can simply slug themselves to victory that goes well past Greg Walker's title...

...then maybe they can do better after Ozzie is gone.

IMO, changes need to come from the top before we see the level of success that Sox fans have been demanding. All firing Ozzie and members of is staff will do is put a nice face on for the press that they're making changes, while it's business as usual upstairs.

Goose
09-14-2011, 12:56 PM
No, I think the flaws of the organization are much deeper.

IMO the whole "Ozzie's distractions" aired out in the press have very little to do with the day to day workings of the clubhouse.

IF Jerry acts like a big market owner and invests in the draft and player development; rewards our core players with market value extensions instead of counting down to when they can ditch them before free agency; and hires staff on merit other than cost and/or if they are "Sox family"...

IF Kenny can put his ego aside and make deals to build the team instead of taking crazy risks on flashy players, and bring in young talented players other than older half-washed up veterans or promoting not-ready kids just to fill a spot...

IF the club can put aside the old notion that the Sox can simply slug themselves to victory that goes well past Greg Walker's title...

...then maybe they can do better after Ozzie is gone.

IMO, changes need to come from the top before we see the level of success that Sox fans have been demanding. All firing Ozzie and members of is staff will do is put a nice face on for the press that they're making changes, while it's business as usual upstairs.

I think I just agreed with nearly everything Russ said.

Strange days indeed! :D:

Tragg
09-14-2011, 01:00 PM
No, I think the flaws of the organization are much deeper.

IMO the whole "Ozzie's distractions" aired out in the press have very little to do with the day to day workings of the clubhouse.

IF Jerry acts like a big market owner and invests in the draft and player development; rewards our core players with market value extensions instead of counting down to when they can ditch them before free agency; and hires staff on merit other than cost and/or if they are "Sox family"...

IF Kenny can put his ego aside and make deals to build the team instead of taking crazy risks on flashy players, and bring in young talented players other than older half-washed up veterans or promoting not-ready kids just to fill a spot...

IF the club can put aside the old notion that the Sox can simply slug themselves to victory that goes well past Greg Walker's title...

...then maybe they can do better after Ozzie is gone.

IMO, changes need to come from the top before we see the level of success that Sox fans have been demanding. All firing Ozzie and members of is staff will do is put a nice face on for the press that they're making changes, while it's business as usual upstairs.

Lot of great points, Russ.
I certainly agree that Ozzie isn't the main problem in this organization (although he needs to go).

DirtySox
09-14-2011, 01:06 PM
No, I think the flaws of the organization are much deeper.

IMO the whole "Ozzie's distractions" aired out in the press have very little to do with the day to day workings of the clubhouse.

IF Jerry acts like a big market owner and invests in the draft and player development; rewards our core players with market value extensions instead of counting down to when they can ditch them before free agency; and hires staff on merit other than cost and/or if they are "Sox family"...

IF Kenny can put his ego aside and make deals to build the team instead of taking crazy risks on flashy players, and bring in young talented players other than older half-washed up veterans or promoting not-ready kids just to fill a spot...

IF the club can put aside the old notion that the Sox can simply slug themselves to victory that goes well past Greg Walker's title...

...then maybe they can do better after Ozzie is gone.

IMO, changes need to come from the top before we see the level of success that Sox fans have been demanding. All firing Ozzie and members of is staff will do is put a nice face on for the press that they're making changes, while it's business as usual upstairs.

Great post.

JC456
09-14-2011, 01:07 PM
So Cowley created his own story. He asks Guillen questions about Florida, and Ozzie answers. He asks Williams about Ozzie, same with Reinsdorf. Well they're all going to answer. And each answer will most likely create more questions and then whalla, you have a story. It doesn't mean anything other than it becomes gossip on messaage boards.

Wait until the year is over and let those in charge take charge and then we'll all know what happens.:stirpot:

FielderJones
09-14-2011, 01:08 PM
My latest problem with Ozzie? I didn't watch the game last night, but how does Konerko, the best fastball hitter on the team sit against Verlander but Rios plays against both Verlander and the day after a night game. :scratch:


Perhaps Konerko's lifetime .163 average (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/batvspitch/_/id/6341/justin-verlander) against Verlander played into it.

tsoxman
09-14-2011, 01:10 PM
I think they both need to go. Or at least "Promote" Kenny so Han can take over. Kenny Williams has a history of having to get "His Guy" no matter what the cost.

Peavy, Dunn, Griffy, Quentin, etc, without taking the time to bother looking into the type of player he is outside of the numbers.

Peavy and Dunn have both proven to be mentally weak and star NL-only players.

Both of these guys are owed a ton of money and unless something drastic happens next year are going to be busts.

As a GM Kenny should be taking the time to analyze "Will this player be a fit in the American League? "Can this player handle the pressure of playing in a large market with an impatient fan base?" And time and time again it seems like he simply gets caught up in the numbers the guys put up instead of the whole package.

I want them both gone next year, but if I have to chose one or the other I'll keep Ozzie and get rid of Kenny.
Thank you. Very well said. In fact, it makes so much sense it (launching both) will never happen.

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2011, 01:33 PM
I think both need to go. Kenny is every bit as responsible for the team's under achievement of late as Ozzie is and I would say that Kenny is also responsible for the team's under achieving for the years before Ozzie came on board.

Rocky Soprano
09-14-2011, 01:33 PM
Perhaps Konerko's lifetime .163 average (http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/batvspitch/_/id/6341/justin-verlander) against Verlander played into it.

Considering that Ozzie has admitted to never looking at stats, I doubt it.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 01:43 PM
Phil weighs in, says JR will probably take his time. Also thinks Cooper will probably return regardless of who the manager is:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-your-morning-phil-ozzie-cooper-buehrle-20110914,0,854885.story

Lip

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 01:46 PM
Russ:

I'm frankly shocked that you think firing the field manger and three coaches (including the hitting coach) will do absolutely nothing to help.

Well...maybe I shouldn't be completely shocked.

I'm not saying it's going to be a cure all, I am saying that removing some of the 'circus-like' issues surrounding this club can only help in the long run.

At this point honestly I don't care who goes, as long as someone is starting to be held accountable. It's clear (again) that Kenny and Ozzie simply can not work together and you can't run a franchise like that.

Lip

balke
09-14-2011, 02:02 PM
I don't care what they do or who they keep cause I like kenny and Ozzie.

I just want to make it clear: Peavy, Dunn, Rios were the problems this year and that falls on the GM. Rios was the only type of player ozzie ever asked for.

Ozzie has said the wrong stuff all year though.

Rocky Soprano
09-14-2011, 02:07 PM
I don't care what they do or who they keep cause I like kenny and Ozzie.

I just want to make it clear: Peavy, Dunn, Rios were the problems this year and that falls on the GM. Rios was the only type of player ozzie ever asked for.

Ozzie has said the wrong stuff all year though.

If Dunn and Rios were having career average years, would you still want KW gone?

WhiteSox5187
09-14-2011, 02:12 PM
I don't care what they do or who they keep cause I like kenny and Ozzie.

I just want to make it clear: Peavy, Dunn, Rios were the problems this year and that falls on the GM. Rios was the only type of player ozzie ever asked for.

Ozzie has said the wrong stuff all year though.

When did he do that? I remember reading last year that Ozzie first knew the Sox got Rios when he saw a note on his desk that said "Alex Rios will report to the White Sox today," Kenny didn't even tell Ozzie he put a claim on Rios.

blandman
09-14-2011, 02:45 PM
Russ:

I'm frankly shocked that you think firing the field manger and three coaches (including the hitting coach) will do absolutely nothing to help.

Well...maybe I shouldn't be completely shocked.

I'm not saying it's going to be a cure all, I am saying that removing some of the 'circus-like' issues surrounding this club can only help in the long run.

At this point honestly I don't care who goes, as long as someone is starting to be held accountable. It's clear (again) that Kenny and Ozzie simply can not work together and you can't run a franchise like that.

Lip

When your GM builds .500 ballclubs every year that the field management gets more out of, the only thing that firing the field management accomplishes is making sure the only other outcome possible besides holding the line is getting worse.

The real problems with the organization start and end with two people. Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams. Until there is a shift to development and the draft, .500 teams are all we are going to get. And if that's what you're going for, there's not many managers out there better than Guillen at getting more wins out of the team.

kittle42
09-14-2011, 02:56 PM
Until there is a shift to development and the draft, .500 teams are all we are going to get.

This, I completely agree with, and it is a complete indictment of upper management. The organization is broken. Change is needed.

And if that's what you're going for, there's not many managers out there better than Guillen at getting more wins out of the team.

However, I would would like to know what you think Guillen does day-to-day to get more wins out of a .500 team than other managers can do.

Goose
09-14-2011, 03:03 PM
When your GM builds .500 ballclubs every year that the field management gets more out of, the only thing that firing the field management accomplishes is making sure the only other outcome possible besides holding the line is getting worse.

The real problems with the organization start and end with two people. Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams. Until there is a shift to development and the draft, .500 teams are all we are going to get. And if that's what you're going for, there's not many managers out there better than Guillen at getting more wins out of the team.


Chicken and egg going on here. Did KW bring in people who would produce a .500 club, or did Ozzie manage them to not get the most out of them?

I am not suggesting one or the other, but this is abstract with this team, 100% blame cannot be had (unless you lay blame 100% on both of them).

russ99
09-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Russ:

I'm frankly shocked that you think firing the field manger and three coaches (including the hitting coach) will do absolutely nothing to help.

Well...maybe I shouldn't be completely shocked.

I'm not saying it's going to be a cure all, I am saying that removing some of the 'circus-like' issues surrounding this club can only help in the long run.

At this point honestly I don't care who goes, as long as someone is starting to be held accountable. It's clear (again) that Kenny and Ozzie simply can not work together and you can't run a franchise like that.

Lip

I do agree that something has to change. I just don't think that Ozzie's off-field antics are the problem, and firing him won't change the level of talent on the club.

While Ozzie says some pretty crude things, I see a lot of similarities between his current situation and Ditka vs. McCaskey.

The "circus" attitude around Ozzie, while sometimes bad press it is still press; and the perception of team is larger than the sum of its parts.

And while it rubs some people the wrong way, I doubt it affects how professional ballplayers do their job, especially since how Ozzie's always stood up for his players.

I do think Cooper has a much larger affect on how the pitchers do their jobs than the other coaches do.

Back to the analogy, when the Bears got Wannstedt, the focus was put back squarely on the team's performance, to their detriment. I see the same thing happening if Ozzie is replaced with a quiet mouthpiece of the organization.

If LaRussa comes in, that would alleviate some of that, but Tony's not without his own set of challenges.

doublem23
09-14-2011, 03:17 PM
And if that's what you're going for, there's not many managers out there better than Guillen at getting more wins out of the team.

Er, what? How many games, this year alone, do you think Guillen cost the Sox by stubbornly keeping Adam Dunn and Alex Rios in the middle of the order? I know, I know, I know, you're going to just quip about how "that's Baseball by the Book 101" or something, but that's not true, at all.

doublem23
09-14-2011, 03:19 PM
Chicken and egg going on here. Did KW bring in people who would produce a .500 club, or did Ozzie manage them to not get the most out of them?

I am not suggesting one or the other, but this is abstract with this team, 100% blame cannot be had (unless you lay blame 100% on both of them).

Right, exactly, its preposterous to say that KW is completely at fault for building a .500-team and that Ozzie is just a victim of all of this. A lot of blame to go all the way around.

doublem23
09-14-2011, 03:27 PM
Back to the analogy, when the Bears got Wannstedt, the focus was put back squarely on the team's performance, to their detriment. I see the same thing happening if Ozzie is replaced with a quiet mouthpiece of the organization.

First off, the Bears improved in Wannstedt's first two seasons, going from 7-9 in 1993 (Da Coach's last season) to 9-7 in Wanny's 1st year, including a win in the Wild Card round. The bottom didn't drop out on Wannstedt for a few years when, SURPRISE, they just had really bad players.

Whatever this notion of Ozzie's behind the scenes magic or any of that **** is just garbage. The Sox have been a fundamentally bad team for years now, they haven't hit well in the clutch, and they pretty much always shrink in the spotlight. Now, if you want to blame that on KW and the players, that's fine, but its also apparent that Ozzie has no magical powers to refocus this team on its task. So at best he has 0 positive or negative impact on this club. And from an on-field management standpoint, he has been just awful this season; from his ludicrous line-up choices, idiotic pinch hit and run situations, and terrible in-game strategy (generally all revolving around bunting with Alexei ahead of Paulie with Dunn protecting him). Ozzie's just been bad this year.

jdm2662
09-14-2011, 03:33 PM
First off, the Bears improved in Wannstedt's first two seasons, going from 7-9 in 1993 (Da Coach's last season) to 9-7 in Wanny's 1st year, including a win in the Wild Card round. The bottom didn't drop out on Wannstedt for a few years when, SURPRISE, they just had really bad players.

Ditka's last season was 1992 when they went 5-11. Wanny was .500 his first four season before the **** hit the fan (but in reality, it started going down hill after a 6-2 start in 1995). It just didn't go to complete **** until after 1996.

Whatever this notion of Ozzie's behind the scenes magic or any of that **** is just garbage. The Sox have been a fundamentally bad team for years now, they haven't hit well in the clutch, and they pretty much always shrink in the spotlight. Now, if you want to blame that on KW and the players, that's fine, but its also apparent that Ozzie has no magical powers to refocus this team on its task. So at best he has 0 positive or negative impact on this club. And from an on-field management standpoint, he has been just awful this season; from his ludicrous line-up choices, idiotic pinch hit and run situations, and terrible in-game strategy (generally all revolving around bunting with Alexei ahead of Paulie with Dunn protecting him). Ozzie's just been bad this year.

EVERYONE involved deserves blame for this season. That is the case pretty much when something goes bad. This has been Ozzie's worst season as field manager, and it's not even close. Hell, speaking of Wanny, there were plenty of people that felt he got the shaft here for whatever reason (mainly due to the Bears front office, etc.) We all saw how well he did with his other jobs.

dickallen15
09-14-2011, 03:52 PM
When your GM builds .500 ballclubs every year that the field management gets more out of, the only thing that firing the field management accomplishes is making sure the only other outcome possible besides holding the line is getting worse.

The real problems with the organization start and end with two people. Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams. Until there is a shift to development and the draft, .500 teams are all we are going to get. And if that's what you're going for, there's not many managers out there better than Guillen at getting more wins out of the team.
If he built a .500 team and they play .500, Ozzie is average, correct?

doublem23
09-14-2011, 03:56 PM
EVERYONE involved deserves blame for this season. That is the case pretty much when something goes bad. This has been Ozzie's worst season as field manager, and it's not even close. Hell, speaking of Wanny, there were plenty of people that felt he got the shaft here for whatever reason (mainly due to the Bears front office, etc.) We all saw how well he did with his other jobs.

This is basically how I feel. There is blame for everyone; Ozzie's been awful, how Greg Walker still has a job defies explanation, KW's big moves have been disasters, JR's been too loyal to a fault, several players have had terrible seasons, etc.

That said, I think the current roster is still salvageable. We have seen sparks of life from some of the young guys (Viciedo, de Aza, Flowers). Konerko is having another monster season. Lillibridge has developed into arguably the best 10th man/supersub in the AL. The pitching staff should be one of the best in the AL again next year, depending on how the dust settles this offseason. Our bullpen should be top notch again. Despite the maddeningly and frustratingly disappointing season they've had, there is a lot to like about this team.

Therefore, I'm not exactly wild on the proposition of just blowing everything up and starting over. If the Sox were careening toward 60 wins, then yes, of course, what is there to lose? But as it stands, I think this roster could be salvageable for 90-something wins under the proper leadership and with some savvy moves this off-season.

I have personally lost faith in Ozzie to deliver that kind of leadership. People have posted the reasons ad naseum around here. I'm just tired of him.

thomas35forever
09-14-2011, 04:03 PM
I don't care what they do or who they keep cause I like kenny and Ozzie.

I just want to make it clear: Peavy, Dunn, Rios were the problems this year and that falls on the GM. Rios was the only type of player ozzie ever asked for.

Ozzie has said the wrong stuff all year though.
You are aware that Peavy had his first year coming back from an unprecedented injury, right? There was no way he was going to be 100 percent this year. You make it sound like you were expecting him to.

russ99
09-14-2011, 04:10 PM
This is basically how I feel. There is blame for everyone; Ozzie's been awful, how Greg Walker still has a job defies explanation, KW's big moves have been disasters, JR's been too loyal to a fault, several players have had terrible seasons, etc.

That said, I think the current roster is still salvageable. We have seen sparks of life from some of the young guys (Viciedo, de Aza, Flowers). Konerko is having another monster season. Lillibridge has developed into arguably the best 10th man/supersub in the AL. The pitching staff should be one of the best in the AL again next year, depending on how the dust settles this offseason. Our bullpen should be top notch again. Despite the maddeningly and frustratingly disappointing season they've had, there is a lot to like about this team.

Therefore, I'm not exactly wild on the proposition of just blowing everything up and starting over. If the Sox were careening toward 60 wins, then yes, of course, what is there to lose? But as it stands, I think this roster could be salvageable for 90-something wins under the proper leadership and with some savvy moves this off-season.

I have personally lost faith in Ozzie to deliver that kind of leadership. People have posted the reasons ad naseum around here. I'm just tired of him.

I'll save the annual next year's payroll post for after the season is over, but if Jerry cuts the payroll below $100M as I suspect, we'll have a much different team next year. BTW - Sending cash in a deal (as we'd need to do big time to find a taker for Dunn and Rios) counts against payroll, so Dunn/Rios will affect the payroll next year if they're here or gone.

I put very little stock into the idea that Ozzie's lack of leadership is the difference between a good season and a poor one. Do you think our two longest-running players and team leaders would have come back after hitting free agency last year if the locker room was so poisonous?

Many players aren't living up the hype, and maybe we should stop believing what we think these guys are, when they've proven over a season that they're not. Lots of people assume things about baseball teams on paper, the proof is in the games, and we'll have had 162 of those.

dickallen15
09-14-2011, 04:21 PM
Russ and blandman are blaming KW talking about lack of talent, but their pre season predictions would indicate the exact opposite. Russ said the Sox were talented enough to win 92 games, blandman 97 games.

kittle42
09-14-2011, 04:26 PM
Russ and blandman are blaming KW talking about lack of talent, but their pre season predictions would indicate the exact opposite. Russ said the Sox were talented enough to win 92 games, blandman 97 games.

If true (I'm far too lazy to look myself right now), boom, roasted.

DickAllen72
09-14-2011, 04:33 PM
It is Cowley, so take that with a grain of salt.

But by keeping Kenny and letting Ozzie and at least some of the coaches go, that would be making a convenient change of face, but keep the exact same culture in place that causes such underachievement.

Firing Ozzie is the right thing to do. If they hire a good manager things will improve.

Unfortunately, the only way the culture of this dysfunctional organization will change is if Jerry sells the team and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

At least let the GM hire his own manager and then let him sink or swim based on the results with his own guy.

soltrain21
09-14-2011, 04:34 PM
Russ and blandman are blaming KW talking about lack of talent, but their pre season predictions would indicate the exact opposite. Russ said the Sox were talented enough to win 92 games, blandman 97 games.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q287/TiptonC/ozzie.gif

DickAllen72
09-14-2011, 04:36 PM
FL is not going to give anything up for Ozzie. KW should try, but we as fans should not expect anything of value, if anything at all.
Tell them if they want Ozzie they just have to take Dunn with him.

ode to veeck
09-14-2011, 04:47 PM
what's the over-under on the number of days before cowley applies for a job with the miami herald?

potw

skobabe8
09-14-2011, 05:05 PM
Make the pain go away.

JB98
09-14-2011, 05:09 PM
Cowley says the Sox will be "irrelevant" without Ozzie.

Being ten games back in the division isn't irrelevant now?

What Cowley should say is that without a manager for whom he can be the mouthpiece, he'll actually have to work.

What's the over-under on the number of days before Cowley applies for a job with the Miami Herald?

Bullseye. The Sox are nobodies with Guillen. They can just as easily be nobodies without him.

dickallen15
09-14-2011, 05:35 PM
Cowley says the Sox will be "irrelevant" without Ozzie.

Being ten games back in the division isn't irrelevant now?

What Cowley should say is that without a manager for whom he can be the mouthpiece, he'll actually have to work.

What's the over-under on the number of days before Cowley applies for a job with the Miami Herald?

Cowley is panicked. He's the one that's irrelevant without Ozzie.

blandman
09-14-2011, 05:37 PM
Russ and blandman are blaming KW talking about lack of talent, but their pre season predictions would indicate the exact opposite. Russ said the Sox were talented enough to win 92 games, blandman 97 games.

I'm not talking about this season, if Rios and Dunn played to their career levels we'd have taken the division handily. Considering they were two of the three most vital cogs in the offense to start the season, and they COMPLETELY bombed, this team is probably closer to a 78 win team. And while I don't want to blame anyone but those two for that...if you're going to blame someone else, it's Kenny before Ozzie. By miles and miles and miles.

But 2008, 2009, and 2010 those teams were obviously .500 level teams. Two of those years Ozzie got 88 and 89 wins out of them. People like to forget that.

blandman
09-14-2011, 05:45 PM
Er, what? How many games, this year alone, do you think Guillen cost the Sox by stubbornly keeping Adam Dunn and Alex Rios in the middle of the order? I know, I know, I know, you're going to just quip about how "that's Baseball by the Book 101" or something, but that's not true, at all.

Oh for Pete's sake. It's not like all year they were batting ahead of Konerko or something.

Morel and Beckham were just as bad most of the year. Paulie, Quentin, Pierre, and TCM all moved ahead of them to stay fairly quickly. The ONLY other person in the lineup is AJ, who slugged .390 in the first half. Do you think having that illustrious power behind Quentin would have made the difference in our season?

dickallen15
09-14-2011, 05:46 PM
I'm not talking about this season, if Rios and Dunn played to their career levels we'd have taken the division handily. Considering they were two of the three most vital cogs in the offense to start the season, and they COMPLETELY bombed, this team is probably closer to a 78 win team. And while I don't want to blame anyone but those two for that...if you're going to blame someone else, it's Kenny before Ozzie. By miles and miles and miles.

But 2008, 2009, and 2010 those teams were obviously .500 level teams. Two of those years Ozzie got 88 and 89 wins out of them. People like to forget that.

No, you blame Ozzie for continuing to put them in the line up in vital spots. .500 teams that get to play an AL Central schedule and 6 games against the Cubs every year should win 88 once in a while, don't you think?

You blamed but you weren't very accurate on your other predictions other than Dunn striking out a lot, and if they were 2 out of 3, you really seemed to be expecting a lot out of others not named Konerko:

Wins: 97

Division Placement: 1st

Post-Season Success: World Series Loss

Batting Leader Predictions

Batting Average: Alexei

Homers: Quentin

RBI: Quentin

OPS: Quentin

Steals: Pierre

Walks: Dunn

SO: Dunn

Pitching Leader Predictions

Wins: Jackson

Saves: Thornton

SO: Jackson

ERA: Jackson

Walks: Floyd

Losses: Buehrle

blandman
09-14-2011, 05:49 PM
No, you blame Ozzie for continuing to put them in the line up in vital spots. .500 teams that get to play an AL Central schedule and 6 games against the Cubs every year should win 88 once in a while, don't you think?

Yeah, I don't buy that. Sorry.

Oh for Pete's sake. It's not like all year they were batting ahead of Konerko or something.

Morel and Beckham were just as bad most of the year. Paulie, Quentin, Pierre, and TCM all moved ahead of them to stay fairly quickly. The ONLY other person in the lineup is AJ, who slugged .390 in the first half. Do you think having that illustrious power behind Quentin would have made the difference in our season?

dickallen15
09-14-2011, 05:51 PM
[QUOTE=blandman;2827309]Oh for Pete's sake. It's not like all year they were batting ahead of Konerko or something.

QUOTE]

Until the middle of August at least.

blandman
09-14-2011, 05:54 PM
[QUOTE=blandman;2827309]Oh for Pete's sake. It's not like all year they were batting ahead of Konerko or something.

QUOTE]

Until the middle of August at least.

Games batting 3rd or 4th:

Dunn - 60
Rios - 16

soltrain21
09-14-2011, 06:02 PM
Oh for Pete's sake. It's not like all year they were batting ahead of Konerko or something.

Morel and Beckham were just as bad most of the year. Paulie, Quentin, Pierre, and TCM all moved ahead of them to stay fairly quickly. The ONLY other person in the lineup is AJ, who slugged .390 in the first half. Do you think having that illustrious power behind Quentin would have made the difference in our season?

Um. Adam Dunn very much batted ahead of Konerko a lot of times.

russ99
09-14-2011, 06:07 PM
Russ and blandman are blaming KW talking about lack of talent, but their pre season predictions would indicate the exact opposite. Russ said the Sox were talented enough to win 92 games, blandman 97 games.

1) My post just before yours "Lots of people assume things about baseball teams on paper, the proof is in the games, and we'll have had 162 of those."

2) Can we please stop the singling out of posters? Now we're going back to preseason predictions?? It's gone too far. We're all White Sox fans here.

blandman
09-14-2011, 06:08 PM
Um. Adam Dunn very much batted ahead of Konerko a lot of times.

Yes, all early on and not for as long as people IMAGINE it to be. He spent 60 days, total, in the 3 and 4 spots in the lineup.

edit: even better. through baseball reference you can see that Dunn batted ahead of Konerko a total of 37 times. Just over one month. What was Ozzie supposed to do, psychically realize the season Dunn would have before he was allowed to get into it?

central44
09-14-2011, 06:18 PM
I'm not talking about this season, if Rios and Dunn played to their career levels we'd have taken the division handily. Considering they were two of the three most vital cogs in the offense to start the season, and they COMPLETELY bombed, this team is probably closer to a 78 win team. And while I don't want to blame anyone but those two for that...if you're going to blame someone else, it's Kenny before Ozzie. By miles and miles and miles.

But 2008, 2009, and 2010 those teams were obviously .500 level teams. Two of those years Ozzie got 88 and 89 wins out of them. People like to forget that.

2008 was pretty mediocre and the 2009 team was awful, I agree. 2008 could have been better if Swisher did something good for the Sox.

2010 was a loaded team though that underachieved, definitely not a .500 team.

...Well ok, it would have been if not for Ozzie's asinine rotating DH idea. I will never stop believing that the Sox win that division with Thome in place of Kotsay and Jones, or at least a league average MLB player. That was, IMHO, when Ozzie really jumped the shark and started putting his own preferences ahead of common sense and what was in the best interest of the team. And that's what we've seen all year in 2011. Non-coincidentally, that's also when the "feud" between KW and Ozzie began.

KW has struck out a lot, unfortunantly. And he deserves blame for that. But if I have to choose one or the other, the choice is clearly KW. I'd rather support the guy who aims high and doesn't always have it work out, than the guy who stubbornly does things that make no sense. As a die-hard Bulls fan, remembering them standing pat as opportunity after opportunity passed them by was extremely frustrating, and if not for a miracle the Bulls would be stuck in mediocrity. For that reason alone, I appreciate KW's tendency to take risks, and I really wish they had panned out better but it's hard for me to fault his decisions.

Again, if both guys got fired I wouldn't be distressed at all. But I at least get the impression that KW wants to build a winning team. Ozzie hasn't shown that at all this year, he's been too busy making nonsensical decisions, planning his trip to Spain, throwing his players under the bus, and lobbying for an extension.

blandman
09-14-2011, 06:22 PM
2008 was pretty mediocre and the 2009 team was awful, I agree. 2008 could have been better if Swisher did something good for the Sox.

2010 was a loaded team though that underachieved, definitely not a .500 team.

...Well ok, it would have been if not for Ozzie's asinine rotating DH idea. I will never stop believing that the Sox win that division with Thome in place of Kotsay and Jones, or at least a league average MLB player. That was, IMHO, when Ozzie really jumped the shark and started putting his own preferences ahead of common sense and what was in the best interest of the team. And that's what we've seen all year in 2011. Non-coincidentally, that's also when the "feud" between KW and Ozzie began.

KW has struck out a lot, unfortunantly. And he deserves blame for that. But if I have to choose one or the other, the choice is clearly KW. I'd rather support the guy who aims high and doesn't always have it work out, than the guy who stubbornly does things that make no sense. As a die-hard Bulls fan, remembering them standing pat as opportunity after opportunity passed them by was extremely frustrating, and if not for a miracle the Bulls would be stuck in mediocrity. For that reason alone, I appreciate KW's tendency to take risks, and I really wish they had panned out better but it's hard for me to fault his decisions.

Again, if both guys got fired I wouldn't be distressed at all. But I at least get the impression that KW wants to build a winning team. Ozzie hasn't shown that at all this year, he's been too busy making nonsensical decisions, planning his trip to Spain, throwing his players under the bus, and lobbying for an extension.

The rotating DH idea is really the only thing I hated that Ozzie did. That did lose us the division last year. Though, after not working in the first half KW did nothing about it too. In fact, a lot of people believe Kenny was played by Washington.

If Guillen was going to be fired, last year was the year to do it. Almost all of the complaints about the ballclub come down to Kenny.

dickallen15
09-14-2011, 07:42 PM
Yes, all early on and not for as long as people IMAGINE it to be. He spent 60 days, total, in the 3 and 4 spots in the lineup.

edit: even better. through baseball reference you can see that Dunn batted ahead of Konerko a total of 37 times. Just over one month. What was Ozzie supposed to do, psychically realize the season Dunn would have before he was allowed to get into it?
And how many times did he hit right behind him? Dunn has made 81 starts batting 3rd 4th or 5th. He hit .160 in April, .204 in May , .136 in June .145 in July .155 in August. Why does it take 81 games to determine he doesn't belong in those spots? There is no defense. Sorry.

dickallen15
09-14-2011, 07:45 PM
1) My post just before yours "Lots of people assume things about baseball teams on paper, the proof is in the games, and we'll have had 162 of those."

2) Can we please stop the singling out of posters? Now we're going back to preseason predictions?? It's gone too far. We're all White Sox fans here.

We are Sox fans, but you expect a team to win 92 games looking at the roster then say its not the manager's fault they aren't coming close to that, its the guy who put together a flawed roster. You obviously thought pretty highly of the roster, so why isn't any of this ever on Ozzie? It obviously isn't all on Ozzie. I'd like KW to go too. But to say Ozzie deserves to stay is ridiculous. He's been horrible this year.

#1swisher
09-14-2011, 07:58 PM
I don't want to waste my time playing people, if they don't want to play.
Mentions suffering, getting older, wrinkled, and white hair when somebody else doesn't care.


Doug Padilla
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/6971072/ozzie-guillen-criticizes-chicago-white-sox

Tragg
09-14-2011, 08:11 PM
KW and OG both deserve to go. KW put forth an 87 win team and an empty farm system with a $125 budget. OG managed this team, to well, I guess, c. 81 wins.

Frater Perdurabo
09-14-2011, 08:17 PM
Given Dunn's struggles since April, a manager with more brains/guts/insight (pick your adjective) than Ozzie would have:

1. dropped Dunn in the order much earlier when it was clear he was struggling;

2. had him sit against LHP when it was clear he was struggling much worse against LHP.

Daver
09-14-2011, 08:19 PM
Given Dunn's struggles since April, a manager with more brains/guts/insight (pick your adjective) than Ozzie would have:

1. dropped Dunn in the order much earlier when it was clear he was struggling;

2. had him sit against LHP when it was clear he was struggling much worse against LHP.


It makes no difference, it's all Kenny's fault.

Frater Perdurabo
09-14-2011, 08:23 PM
It makes no difference, it's all Kenny's fault.

Hey Daver, honest question that I hope you'll answer honestly: Who should KW hire as manager of the Sox?

Daver
09-14-2011, 08:26 PM
Hey Daver, honest question that I hope you'll answer honestly: Who should KW hire as manager of the Sox?


russ99 and Munch.

Frater Perdurabo
09-14-2011, 08:27 PM
russ99 and Munch.

Yeah, but their contract demands are too high. So who's your next choice? What's your opinion of McEwing?

Daver
09-14-2011, 08:30 PM
Hey Daver, honest question that I hope you'll answer honestly: Who should KW hire as manager of the Sox?

I have a few names I'd like to see get interviews, Dave Martinez, Jose Valentin, Brooke Fordyce, Nick Leyva, and Sandy Alomar Jr. top the list.


That being said I doubt any of them will get a phone call.

Boondock Saint
09-14-2011, 08:41 PM
I have a few names I'd like to see get interviews, Dave Martinez, Jose Valentin, Brooke Fordyce, Nick Leyva, and Sandy Alomar Jr. top the list.


That being said I doubt any of them will get a phone call.

If you don't mind more brain picking, what is it about those potential candidates that you like? Specifically, what is it you think they do differently or better than your average manager?

Daver
09-14-2011, 08:49 PM
If you don't mind more brain picking, what is it about those potential candidates that you like? Specifically, what is it you think they do differently or better than your average manager?

Martinez, Valentin, and Alomar were students of the game as players, you could tell just by watching them that they had plans for a life in baseball when their playing days were over. Fordyce is also of that ilk, and currently runs a baseball instructional school in Florida, and Nick Leyva has a knack for getting the absolute most out of his players, he did great things with some very underwhelming teams in Birmingham and Charlotte in his day.

Brian26
09-14-2011, 08:51 PM
russ99 and Munch.

:rolling:

Brian26
09-14-2011, 08:54 PM
There was a great article about Valentin a couple of weeks back in the Sunday Trib. He's coaching a youth team down there which includes one of his kids. I think Martinez would be a great choice too.

Who's the new hitting coach? Von Joshua or Tim Laker?

Frater Perdurabo
09-14-2011, 08:57 PM
Martinez, Valentin, and Alomar were students of the game as players, you could tell just by watching them that they had plans for a life in baseball when their playing days were over. Fordyce is also of that ilk, and currently runs a baseball instructional school in Florida, and Nick Leyva has a knack for getting the absolute most out of his players, he did great things with some very underwhelming teams in Birmingham and Charlotte in his day.

Do Martinez, Valentin and Alomar have much coaching experience? Leyva seems to have the most experience, so I might favor him, but perhaps the others might be good 3B/1B/bench coaches?

Let's hope Cooper stays.

Daver
09-14-2011, 09:02 PM
There was a great article about Valentin a couple of weeks back in the Sunday Trib. He's coaching a youth team down there which includes one of his kids. I think Martinez would be a great choice too.

Who's the new hitting coach? Von Joshua or Tim Laker?

I would welcome Joshua's return, he did wonders with the 2000 team that was expected to finish below .500.

Daver
09-14-2011, 09:04 PM
Do Martinez, Valentin and Alomar have much coaching experience? Leyva seems to have the most experience, so I might favor him, but perhaps the others might be good 3B/1B/bench coaches?

Let's hope Cooper stays.

Why ask me, I know nothing about baseball.

Noneck
09-14-2011, 09:07 PM
Who's the new hitting coach? Von Joshua or Tim Laker?


I feel as though the manager should be the one to pick the hitting coach, that being said I hope the manager considers John Mallee. A local guy that did do a good job in the marlins organization. Also bringing in some young blood may be the boost that is needed within this organization. Finally, him being a life long Sox fan cant hurt.

gosox41
09-14-2011, 09:22 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/7643768-574/ozzie-guillen-eyes-end-of-line-with-sox-says-hes-ready-for-anything.html

It's Cowley, so take that FWIW


Can't wait to see who the new manager is assuming this is true. Knowing KW we'll probably go after a HOF manager. Hopefully he won't be senile or dead.


Bob

Tragg
09-14-2011, 09:35 PM
I would welcome Joshua's return, he did wonders with the 2000 team that was expected to finish below .500.

That team had a .356 OBP and the only Sox team since that has come close was 2006, which was in the low .340s.
Frank Thomas, the lord of discipline, contributed to that, but he was also on the team in several subsequent years. And Ozzie has never valued the OBP metric much.

Daver
09-14-2011, 09:37 PM
That team had a .356 OBP and the only Sox team since that has come close was 2006, which was in the low .340s.
Frank Thomas, the lord of discipline, contributed to that, but he was also on the team in several subsequent years. And Ozzie has never valued the OBP metric much.


I don't have much use for it either.

Frater Perdurabo
09-14-2011, 09:40 PM
That team had a .356 OBP and the only Sox team since that has come close was 2006, which was in the low .340s.
Frank Thomas, the lord of discipline, contributed to that, but he was also on the team in several subsequent years. And Ozzie has never valued the OBP metric much.

That team walked a lot and they hit for high average.

PalehosePlanet
09-14-2011, 09:44 PM
Do Martinez, Valentin and Alomar have much coaching experience? Leyva seems to have the most experience, so I might favor him, but perhaps the others might be good 3B/1B/bench coaches?

Let's hope Cooper stays.

Dave Martinez has been Joe Maddon's bench coach with The Rays for the last four years. IMO, he'd be the perfect choice.

Frater Perdurabo
09-14-2011, 09:48 PM
Dave Martinez has been Joe Maddon's bench coach with The Rays for the last four years. IMO, he'd be the perfect choice.

Fine with me.

Lip Man 1
09-14-2011, 10:02 PM
I think as usual JR will have a hand in the final decision (he always interviews the finalist personally either face to face or over the phone) but I get the sense that this time, Kenny's opinion is going to carry more weight than in the past.

I can't give you specifics yet why I think that, it's just a sense that I'm getting from talking with folks.

Lip

blandman
09-14-2011, 10:33 PM
And how many times did he hit right behind him? Dunn has made 81 starts batting 3rd 4th or 5th. He hit .160 in April, .204 in May , .136 in June .145 in July .155 in August. Why does it take 81 games to determine he doesn't belong in those spots? There is no defense. Sorry.

Ugh.

This is so tiring the way people spin things like there was another option just to pass on their rage filled agenda.

Yes, he batted fifth a lot. Why? Because there was NO ONE ELSE TO BAT THERE.

1 2 3 4

Pierre Ramirez Konerko Quentin

For the bulk of the season.

Now who bats fifth? Rios? Well, that was tried plenty too. Morel? Not a chance. Beckham? That kids more mental than Dunn. AJ? Through the first hundred games, AJ was slugging WORSE than Dunn.

No, there is no right answer. And I don't mean to pick on just you, because it's a lot of people saying this. But there's no basis for this argument. It's either ignorance of the facts, or manipulating facts to push an agenda. And neither of those are good. Or right.

balke
09-14-2011, 10:44 PM
If Dunn and Rios were having career average years, would you still want KW gone?

I don't want Kenny gone. Just saying its all his fault. And yeah I don't really like Rios or Dunns career averages when de aza and Viciedo have shown they could've played those positions on the cheap.

fram40
09-14-2011, 10:56 PM
That's fine. I am not interested in assigning blame and seeking revenge on people, I am much more interested in retaining people I think will help the Sox win going forward and getting rid of those who will not. You're right, KW is culpable for the bad contracts that have saddled this team for the near future, but he is also continued to have savvy eye for cheap, young talent. Humber and De Aza are the best two examples from this year. They're not stars, but they are capable players that don't make any money. The Sox are going to need to be creative with their payroll. I think KW fits that bill.

That said, as I stated, I don't feel strongly one way or the other. If the Sox decide to axe KW, too, that'd be OK with me, as long as they find another GM capable of operating on a very limited budget in the short-term.

Ozzie, however, I am ****ing sick of. I'm sick of his little antics. I'm sick of his terrible in-game managament. I'm sick of his whiny, defensive bull**** everytime someone asks him a tough question. I'm sick of his embarrassing, stupid kids. I'm sick of his crew of former player coaches. I'm sick of him openly pining for a new deal in the middle of a pennant race. I don't like him as the manager of my favorite team. You're right, probably a lot of this team's underachieving was out of his control, but what I have seen that was in his control (his lineup, his in-game strategy, etc.) was terrible. I'm tired of him, I think a lot of the guys in the clubhouse are tired of him, and as long as he's forced to be #2 to KW, I don't think it's going to get better. So fire him and see what happens.

I agree. Ozzie must go - and your last paragraph explains it perfectly.

I'd like to see Kenny get a chance to rebuild. Not sure why - I've just always liked Kenny. And still do. Even though he has had a few bad years recently, I want him back and in charge next year.

JB98
09-15-2011, 12:32 AM
Ugh.

This is so tiring the way people spin things like there was another option just to pass on their rage filled agenda.

Yes, he batted fifth a lot. Why? Because there was NO ONE ELSE TO BAT THERE.

1 2 3 4

Pierre Ramirez Konerko Quentin

For the bulk of the season.

Now who bats fifth? Rios? Well, that was tried plenty too. Morel? Not a chance. Beckham? That kids more mental than Dunn. AJ? Through the first hundred games, AJ was slugging WORSE than Dunn.

No, there is no right answer. And I don't mean to pick on just you, because it's a lot of people saying this. But there's no basis for this argument. It's either ignorance of the facts, or manipulating facts to push an agenda. And neither of those are good. Or right.

Viciedo. Should have been called up in June. The Sox didn't need 12 pitchers. They needed another hitter.

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2011, 12:43 AM
Viciedo. Should have been called up in June. You're absolutely sure he was ready to come up in June? That there wasn't something that the organization was still working on with him? I'll say again that one of the constant complaints around here is the White Sox ruining young players by rushing them to the majors before they're ready. So now, with Viciedo (who was very young and exceedingly raw) they show a little patience, and they're criticized for that.

cards press box
09-15-2011, 12:59 AM
Dave Martinez has been Joe Maddon's bench coach with The Rays for the last four years. IMO, he'd be the perfect choice.

Dave Martinez makes good sense for another reason -- he is much more low key than either Ozzie or KW. Over-the top managers tend to be replaced by low key guys that underreact to everything. For example, Bob Lemon followed Billy Martin as manager of the Yankees.

I recall that Martinez was a fundamentally sound player and I strongly suspect that he learned a lot from Joe Maddon. Interesting choice.

dickallen15
09-15-2011, 07:31 AM
Ugh.

This is so tiring the way people spin things like there was another option just to pass on their rage filled agenda.

Yes, he batted fifth a lot. Why? Because there was NO ONE ELSE TO BAT THERE.

1 2 3 4

Pierre Ramirez Konerko Quentin

For the bulk of the season.

Now who bats fifth? Rios? Well, that was tried plenty too. Morel? Not a chance. Beckham? That kids more mental than Dunn. AJ? Through the first hundred games, AJ was slugging WORSE than Dunn.

No, there is no right answer. And I don't mean to pick on just you, because it's a lot of people saying this. But there's no basis for this argument. It's either ignorance of the facts, or manipulating facts to push an agenda. And neither of those are good. Or right.

No one else to bat there? Look at Dunn's numbers? HE WASN"T THE GUY TO BAT THERE. If Quentin struggles for a couple of weeks, he gets moved down, if Beckham struggles for a couple of weeks, he moves in the line up. There was a game in late July, early August when Pierre singled. Ramirez who had 2 hits previously, Ozzie had bunt to open up first base to walk Konerko, and have Dunn face a lefty against whom he has 3 HITS ALL SEASON. Adam shockingly struck out and the Sox did not score. Ozzie's managing in 2011 was a bust of epic proportions. That and never allowing guys to hit 3-0? Even Hawk is crying about that. To be fair, the league knows the Sox are not swing at 3-0 so perhaps if they did once in a while the meatballs that are currently thrown to them with that count might be a little different, but it also lets the pitcher back into the AB.

dickallen15
09-15-2011, 07:32 AM
The Sox love Sandy Alomar Jr. If Ozzie goes, I'd be shocked if he isn't the new manager.

russ99
09-15-2011, 07:42 AM
No one else to bat there? Look at Dunn's numbers? HE WASN"T THE GUY TO BAT THERE. If Quentin struggles for a couple of weeks, he gets moved down, if Beckham struggles for a couple of weeks, he moves in the line up. There was a game in late July, early August when Pierre singled. Ramirez who had 2 hits previously, Ozzie had bunt to open up first base to walk Konerko, and have Dunn face a lefty against whom he has 3 HITS ALL SEASON.

What's the limit on when you discount a guy's entire career and take his stats for the current season as what you're definitively going to get the rest of the year? May? June? July?

And Ozzie's supposed to just throw away his track record of being patient, then guys breaking out such as Dye in 08, Konerko in 09 and A.J. last year?

Dunn's numbers last year (and over the last 3 years) deemed that he bat in the positions that he was put in, at least until his benching in August.

I've never seen so much complaining about a lineup ever the way Sox fans have this year. And I follow 3 baseball teams, 2 football, basketball and hockey teams and 6 soccer clubs. Last year with the Kotsay bitching was pretty bad, but this takes the cake. You realize that it's nitpicking to the highest level.

Dunn probably would have done the same batting 3rd, 5th, 7th or 9th in the order, so why play games to assume that the offense would have been any better had Ozzie shuffled things more that he did, which was substantial compared to other seasons.

SCCWS
09-15-2011, 07:52 AM
Let's hope Cooper stays.


I think we need a clean sweep. The offense and Walk are so bad that I think we may over-value Coop in comparison. In my opinion, his performance in developing young pitchers has not been good. Danks and Floyd have been with him for 4 years and they are not getting better. Both died in the September run. Floyd 's ERA has risen every year he has pitched here. Danks for all his potential is still a sub .500 pitcher. Coop has been given a host of veteran pitchers to supplement Buehrle-Danks-Floyd. But while Coop has been here, he has never been able to take a young pitcher( and we have seen a bunch the last few years) and convert him to a 2-3 rotation guy to add to B-D-F. Now in fairness, you can only work with what you get. maybe a new coach can get Danks and Floyd( if they are here) going in the right direction.
I would add that since we really don't credit Walk for Paulie, same goes for Coop and Buehrle.

TomBradley72
09-15-2011, 08:00 AM
This entire month of September seems like one big "Ozzie Tantrum/Circus"- he brings up his contract while they were still in the race, once he realizes he's probably not coming back- he starts to throw individual players under the bus (some deservedly so)- niow the overall team.

It's clearly time for a change- I just want an adult in charge of the team- completely burnt out on the manager throwing feces around the cage looking for attention- along with the son's tweeting,etc.- just done.

He's lost the team- and they need a new leader.

Moses_Scurry
09-15-2011, 08:01 AM
My vote goes to Valentin with Royce Clayton as the bench coach.

Bring back the Manos vs. The Choice debates!!!!!!

kevingrt
09-15-2011, 08:04 AM
My vote goes to Valentin with Royce Clayton as the bench coach.

Bring back the Manos vs. The Choice debates!!!!!!

Don't we already have The Choice Jr. 2B version with Beckham at second base for the foreseeable future?

Moses_Scurry
09-15-2011, 08:14 AM
Don't we already have The Choice Jr. 2B version with Beckham at second base for the foreseeable future?

There's no Manos to challenge Beckham.

SI1020
09-15-2011, 08:41 AM
What's the limit on when you discount a guy's entire career and take his stats for the current season as what you're definitively going to get the rest of the year? May? June? July?

And Ozzie's supposed to just throw away his track record of being patient, then guys breaking out such as Dye in 08, Konerko in 09 and A.J. last year?

Dunn's numbers last year (and over the last 3 years) deemed that he bat in the positions that he was put in, at least until his benching in August.

Concerning Dunn is was June when it appeared to me what he was going through was a catastrophe of historic proportions. Dye in 07 and Konerko in 08 were in long slumps, I'll grant you that, but I've never seen or been aware of anything like Dunn this year. I would have ended it in June, if you and others would have waited then OK I guess.

blandman
09-15-2011, 09:27 AM
You're absolutely sure he was ready to come up in June? That there wasn't something that the organization was still working on with him? I'll say again that one of the constant complaints around here is the White Sox ruining young players by rushing them to the majors before they're ready. So now, with Viciedo (who was very young and exceedingly raw) they show a little patience, and they're criticized for that.

Some of us think he's being rushed now. Guy has no clue on how to play the field.

No one else to bat there? Look at Dunn's numbers? HE WASN"T THE GUY TO BAT THERE. If Quentin struggles for a couple of weeks, he gets moved down, if Beckham struggles for a couple of weeks, he moves in the line up. There was a game in late July, early August when Pierre singled. Ramirez who had 2 hits previously, Ozzie had bunt to open up first base to walk Konerko, and have Dunn face a lefty against whom he has 3 HITS ALL SEASON. Adam shockingly struck out and the Sox did not score. Ozzie's managing in 2011 was a bust of epic proportions. That and never allowing guys to hit 3-0? Even Hawk is crying about that. To be fair, the league knows the Sox are not swing at 3-0 so perhaps if they did once in a while the meatballs that are currently thrown to them with that count might be a little different, but it also lets the pitcher back into the AB.

This is an emotional outburst clouding reality. You are simply remembering things wrong.

Dunn moved down plenty. He spent less than two weeks batting 3rd before he was demoted. When June came around, he was no longer pickup up cleanup duties. As the season progressed, he countinued to move down.

And look at his numbers? Look at everyone else's! The fifth spot in the order is a slugging spot. You can't put Morel there. You can't put AJ there, despite his batting average he was slugging historically low for the bulk of the year. Beckham's even more than a lost cause than Dunn. Rios got tried there plenty too. He was just as bad.

You are mad and making things up in your head to be more than they are.

doublem23
09-15-2011, 09:29 AM
yawn

Ozzie is a genius, we all just don't understand. Look at how he got this team to a whole 3 games under .500.

blandman
09-15-2011, 09:45 AM
yawn

Ozzie is a genius, we all just don't understand. Look at how he got this team to a whole 3 games under .500.

Blame for this year is as follows:

1. Dunn
2. Rios
3. KW

People who had nothing to do with how bad we are: everyone else

Maybe Ozzie is a bad manager. But his managing had little impact on how bad we were this year.

doublem23
09-15-2011, 09:47 AM
Blame for this year is as follows:

1. Dunn
2. Rios
3. KW

People who had nothing to do with how bad we are: everyone else

Maybe Ozzie is a bad manager. But his managing had little impact on how bad we were this year.

I disagree

The blame scattershot pretty much hits everyone in the organization. To say it's all Dunn and Rios and KW, but Ozzie had nothing to do with it, is just plain silly. I doubt even you feel that way, either, but I know you just like to fight with people for some reason.

blandman
09-15-2011, 09:48 AM
I disagree

Based on off field antics?

This team was already bad. Unless you think Dunn and Rios would have responded differently to a different manager. In which case I call bull****. But you're welcome to believe that.

kittle42
09-15-2011, 09:50 AM
Maybe Ozzie is a bad manager. But his managing had little impact on how bad we were this year.

But you can point to more than a handful of specific games he lost with his managerial talents.

Of course, this may actually be true for every manager...I admittedly don't watch every MLB game!

blandman
09-15-2011, 09:50 AM
The blame scattershot pretty much hits everyone in the organization. To say it's all Dunn and Rios and KW, but Ozzie had nothing to do with it, is just plain silly. I doubt even you feel that way, either, but I know you just like to fight with people for some reason.

I think, this year, Ozzie did a terrific job with the team he was dealt. Last year? Completely his fault.

blandman
09-15-2011, 09:51 AM
But you can point to more than a handful of specific games he lost with his managerial talents.

Of course, this may actually be true for every manager...I admittedly don't watch every MLB game!

I'm not going to sit here and second guess a manager for, say, batting a lefty late in a game against a right handed reliever. You can play that game with ANY manager and make them look like a fool.

doublem23
09-15-2011, 09:52 AM
Based on off field antics?

This team was already bad. Unless you think Dunn and Rios would have responded differently to a different manager. In which case I call bull****. But you're welcome to believe that.

Rios I will give you, he is a lazy SOB. But Dunn, a steady, consistent 900+ OPS, 40 HR hitter, whose numbers never wavered under a steady stream of managers in Cincinnati, Arizona, and Washington, suddenly comes to the Sox and collapses, but it's all on Dunn, right? Right.

And yes, I will believe that Ozzie's awful decision-making played a role in this team's demise. Not the only role. Maybe not the most important role, either, but yes, when a team underachieves this enormously, I will hold the on-field manager accountable. Otherwise, what is the point of even having him around? And you can talk down to everyone on these boards all you want in your defense of him, it still doesn't change the fact that it's nothing more than your own opinion on the subject. You're free to pretend like your arsenal is full of facts all you like, though.

kittle42
09-15-2011, 09:54 AM
I'm not going to sit here and second guess a manager for, say, batting a lefty late in a game against a right handed reliever. You can play that game with ANY manager and make them look like a fool.

In almost all the cases, second guessing wasn't necessary. The decisions were bad when they were made independent of the outcome, like poker if you play at all.

A horrible call on the turn doesn't suddenly become a great play when you hit a four-outer on the river.

blandman
09-15-2011, 10:10 AM
Rios I will give you, he is a lazy SOB. But Dunn, a steady, consistent 900+ OPS, 40 HR hitter, whose numbers never wavered under a steady stream of managers in Cincinnati, Arizona, and Washington, suddenly comes to the Sox and collapses, but it's all on Dunn, right? Right.

And yes, I will believe that Ozzie's awful decision-making played a role in this team's demise. Not the only role. Maybe not the most important role, either, but yes, when a team underachieves this enormously, I will hold the on-field manager accountable. Otherwise, what is the point of even having him around? And you can talk down to everyone on these boards all you want in your defense of him, it still doesn't change the fact that it's nothing more than your own opinion on the subject. You're free to pretend like your arsenal is full of facts all you like, though.

Blaming Ozzie for Dunn's struggles is probably the most insipid form of Ozzie hate I've seen on this board. Congratulations.

Replacing a 900+ OPS Adam Dunn with a 500 OPS Adam Dunn, as well as just as large a drop for Rios, is what killed this team. You take two players who your offense is built around and make them go from 5+ Win players to -5 win players and the reason you lost is obvious.

I'm the only one actually bringing up facts. Sorry that makes me "full of facts". But when people say Ozzie did something, and the facts show he didn't...usually rational people take a step back and reassess.

hawkjt
09-15-2011, 10:20 AM
Blaming Kenny for acquiring one of the most consistent sluggers in the history of baseball who then just falls off the table his first year in Chicago is also is wrong.

I think it is on Dunn. Not Ozzie,not Kenny,it is Dunn.
Rios? He had a big year last year,so why would he not continue that?
Blame Rios.

I think it is on the players- they just did not perform.
But, Ozzie/Cowley has contributed to the open warfare,creating a toxic work environment, and hence it is apparent that Ozzie/Cowley will get their way and make JR choose one of them.

I honestly do not think it would be healthy in the clubhouse to bring Ozzie back at this point. He is burning bridges with the players now,and that is the last straw. He has quit,as much or more than the players.

I have defended Ozzie all year, but I am done,because he gave it up,thru his emmissary,Cowley,and that is the backbreaker for me.

Trade Ozzie to the Marlins,and let him be happy in Miami,with a big new contract. Better for everyone.

tstrike2000
09-15-2011, 10:20 AM
Blaming Ozzie for Dunn's struggles is probably the most insipid form of Ozzie hate I've seen on this board. Congratulations.

Replacing a 900+ OPS Adam Dunn with a 500 OPS Adam Dunn, as well as just as large a drop for Rios, is what killed this team. You take two players who your offense is built around and make them go from 5+ Win players to -5 win players and the reason you lost is obvious.

I'm the only one actually bringing up facts. Sorry that makes me "full of facts". But when people say Ozzie did something, and the facts show he didn't...usually rational people take a step back and reassess.

Since the repetitive subject of Dunn and Rios has been at a nauseum pace for a while, I'll ask the age old question. Since Dunn and Rios killed the team for much of the season, why were they repeatedly batting in prime spots in the lineup, i.e. Dunn batting cleanup, game after game after game?

asindc
09-15-2011, 10:24 AM
Blaming Kenny for acquiring one of the most consistent sluggers in the history of baseball who then just falls off the table his first year in Chicago is also is wrong.

I think it is on Dunn. Not Ozzie,not Kenny,it is Dunn.
Rios? He had a big year last year,so why would he not continue that?
Blame Rios.

I think it is on the players- they just did not perform.
But, Ozzie/Cowley has contributed to the open warfare,creating a toxic work environment, and hence it is apparent that Ozzie/Cowley will get their way and make JR choose one of them.

I honestly do not think it would be healthy in the clubhouse to bring Ozzie back at this point. He is burning bridges with the players now,and that is the last straw. He has quit,as much or more than the players.

I have defended Ozzie all year, but I am done,because he gave it up,thru his emmissary,Cowley,and that is the backbreaker for me.

Trade Ozzie to the Marlins,and let him be happy in Miami,with a big new contract. Better for everyone.

I agree with everything in your post, but I have to say that the bolded part... that's just crazy talk!

TomBradley72
09-15-2011, 10:28 AM
Rios I will give you, he is a lazy SOB. But Dunn, a steady, consistent 900+ OPS, 40 HR hitter, whose numbers never wavered under a steady stream of managers in Cincinnati, Arizona, and Washington, suddenly comes to the Sox and collapses, but it's all on Dunn, right? Right.



Ozzie is responsible for Dunn's historically awful season?

:bong:

soltrain21
09-15-2011, 10:29 AM
Blaming Kenny for acquiring one of the most consistent sluggers in the history of baseball who then just falls off the table his first year in Chicago is also is wrong.

I think it is on Dunn. Not Ozzie,not Kenny,it is Dunn.
Rios? He had a big year last year,so why would he not continue that?
Blame Rios.

I think it is on the players- they just did not perform.
But, Ozzie/Cowley has contributed to the open warfare,creating a toxic work environment, and hence it is apparent that Ozzie/Cowley will get their way and make JR choose one of them.

I honestly do not think it would be healthy in the clubhouse to bring Ozzie back at this point. He is burning bridges with the players now,and that is the last straw. He has quit,as much or more than the players.

I have defended Ozzie all year, but I am done,because he gave it up,thru his emmissary,Cowley,and that is the backbreaker for me.

Trade Ozzie to the Marlins,and let him be happy in Miami,with a big new contract. Better for everyone.

This is exactly right. Sure, it isn't Ozzie's fault the players were bad (even though he kept trotting bad ones out there), but the toxicity that he has created needs to be flushed out.

kittle42
09-15-2011, 10:33 AM
This is exactly right. Sure, it isn't Ozzie's fault the players were bad (even though he kept trotting bad ones out there), but the toxicity that he has created needs to be flushed out.

Bingo.

doublem23
09-15-2011, 10:36 AM
Blaming Ozzie for Dunn's struggles is probably the most insipid form of Ozzie hate I've seen on this board. Congratulations.

Replacing a 900+ OPS Adam Dunn with a 500 OPS Adam Dunn, as well as just as large a drop for Rios, is what killed this team. You take two players who your offense is built around and make them go from 5+ Win players to -5 win players and the reason you lost is obvious.

I'm the only one actually bringing up facts. Sorry that makes me "full of facts". But when people say Ozzie did something, and the facts show he didn't...usually rational people take a step back and reassess.

Well thank, please tell me where I said it's all Ozzie's fault for Dunn's struggles. The fact remains, however, that Dunn went from a steady, consistent 40-HR, 900 OPS hitter to a complete nothing. What changed? It's possible the American League really is that much better than the National League. It's possible that the bright lights of Chicago were too much for him. ****, it's possible that he just ate Doritos and cheeseburgers all winter and laughed while counting all the dollars the Sox signed him for. But another change; he's here on the Sox. Perhaps there's something in the organization that helped facilitate his downward spiral, especially considering this isn't exactly the first time a well-regarded MLB player came to the Sox and bombed here.

And please, what facts do you bring up? That every other manager in the recorded annals of baseball history would do the same R/L managing Ozzie does? That every other manager ever would have batted Dunn in the middle of the order for almost the entire season because that's just, hey, Baseball 101? You offer nothing more or less to this discussion than anyone else on these boards, regardless of what you'd like to believe.

doublem23
09-15-2011, 10:39 AM
Ozzie is responsible for Dunn's historically awful season?



Not the first time it's happened.

http://thepilver.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/nick-swisher.jpg

I wouldn't say it's all Ozzie's fault and no one else, but I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb and wondering that perhaps something around this organization somewhere is broken, especially considering as soon as Swisher left, he's had 3 seasons with the Yankees that are mirror images of the player he was when he was a full-timer in Oakland. The guy has basically been machine of consistency since his 2nd full year in the league, in 2006, with one exception.

Goose
09-15-2011, 11:14 AM
Jesus! Look, Ozzie is not responsible for the suckage on display from Dunn and Rios. That, obviously, is on them. I dont think anyone can, with a clean conscience, say otherwise.

What Bland and Russ and a few others don't get it that Ozzie is responsible for what his contributions to the suckage was. He is responsible for his actions which also contributed to the badness of this team. Ozzie makes the line-up card and places people in the order he wants them to hit. Ozzie pinch hits when he feels like he should, Ozzie makes the pitching changes when he does, Ozzie benches players when they are on a roll (or plays them when they are slumping). THOSE are the things that he is responsible for, and I consider them a big part of the failure of this team. Ozzie's main job is keeping the team together and believing in each other. This team gave up! They gave up a long time ago. That is on Ozzie. He has failed miserably in that regard and needs to be held accountable.

There is plenty of blame to go around, and how anyone can say that Ozzie did a terrific job with this group needs to have their Baseball IQ tested.

Rocky Soprano
09-15-2011, 11:27 AM
Jesus! Look, Ozzie is not responsible for the suckage on display from Dunn and Rios. That, obviously, is on them. I dont think anyone can, with a clean conscience, say otherwise.

What Bland and Russ and a few others don't get it that Ozzie is responsible for what his contributions to the suckage was. He is responsible for his actions which also contributed to the badness of this team. Ozzie makes the line-up card and places people in the order he wants them to hit. Ozzie pinch hits when he feels like he should, Ozzie makes the pitching changes when he does, Ozzie benches players when they are on a roll (or plays them when they are slumping). THOSE are the things that he is responsible for, and I consider them a big part of the failure of this team. Ozzie's main job is keeping the team together and believing in each other. This team gave up! They gave up a long time ago. That is on Ozzie. He has failed miserably in that regard and needs to be held accountable.

There is plenty of blame to go around, and how anyone can say that Ozzie did a terrific job with this group needs to have their Baseball IQ tested.

Bravo, Bravo.
Great post.

blandman
09-15-2011, 11:28 AM
Since the repetitive subject of Dunn and Rios has been at a nauseum pace for a while, I'll ask the age old question. Since Dunn and Rios killed the team for much of the season, why were they repeatedly batting in prime spots in the lineup, i.e. Dunn batting cleanup, game after game after game?

Speaking of ad nauseum...

As I said earlier, and then repeated again twice, Dunn batted in the 3 spot 37 times total. He batted cleanup 23 times. He batted fifth 20 times.

Rios has batted 3rd a grand total of 6 times. He batted fourth a grand total of 10 times. He batted fifth only 21 times.

Does that sound like all year? Wasn't most of that in the first half? Is Ozzie physic now? And who else was there? Morel had no power, you want him batting fifth? Beckham is struggling mentally as bad as Dunn. AJ had a lower slugging percentage than Dunn in the first half, and led the league in GIDP at the time. Juan, Quentin, PK, and TCM all spent more than 2/3 of the season batting ahead of those guys. So the impression that Ozzie ****ed up the lineup, or that Ozzie held back better lineups is simply bull****.

Well thank, please tell me where I said it's all Ozzie's fault for Dunn's struggles. The fact remains, however, that Dunn went from a steady, consistent 40-HR, 900 OPS hitter to a complete nothing. What changed? It's possible the American League really is that much better than the National League. It's possible that the bright lights of Chicago were too much for him. ****, it's possible that he just ate Doritos and cheeseburgers all winter and laughed while counting all the dollars the Sox signed him for. But another change; he's here on the Sox. Perhaps there's something in the organization that helped facilitate his downward spiral, especially considering this isn't exactly the first time a well-regarded MLB player came to the Sox and bombed here.

And please, what facts do you bring up? That every other manager in the recorded annals of baseball history would do the same R/L managing Ozzie does? That every other manager ever would have batted Dunn in the middle of the order for almost the entire season because that's just, hey, Baseball 101? You offer nothing more or less to this discussion than anyone else on these boards, regardless of what you'd like to believe.

Oh you weren't insinuating Ozzie was responsible for Dunn? My mistake.

Read above for facts.

Jesus! Look, Ozzie is not responsible for the suckage on display from Dunn and Rios. That, obviously, is on them. I dont think anyone can, with a clean conscience, say otherwise.

What Bland and Russ and a few others don't get it that Ozzie is responsible for what his contributions to the suckage was. He is responsible for his actions which also contributed to the badness of this team. Ozzie makes the line-up card and places people in the order he wants them to hit. Ozzie pinch hits when he feels like he should, Ozzie makes the pitching changes when he does, Ozzie benches players when they are on a roll (or plays them when they are slumping). THOSE are the things that he is responsible for, and I consider them a big part of the failure of this team. Ozzie's main job is keeping the team together and believing in each other. This team gave up! They gave up a long time ago. That is on Ozzie. He has failed miserably in that regard and needs to be held accountable.

There is plenty of blame to go around, and how anyone can say that Ozzie did a terrific job with this group needs to have their Baseball IQ tested.

Read top post for "lineup card" response.

Risk
09-15-2011, 11:30 AM
Jesus! Look, Ozzie is not responsible for the suckage on display from Dunn and Rios. That, obviously, is on them. I dont think anyone can, with a clean conscience, say otherwise.

What Bland and Russ and a few others don't get it that Ozzie is responsible for what his contributions to the suckage was. He is responsible for his actions which also contributed to the badness of this team. Ozzie makes the line-up card and places people in the order he wants them to hit. Ozzie pinch hits when he feels like he should, Ozzie makes the pitching changes when he does, Ozzie benches players when they are on a roll (or plays them when they are slumping). THOSE are the things that he is responsible for, and I consider them a big part of the failure of this team. Ozzie's main job is keeping the team together and believing in each other. This team gave up! They gave up a long time ago. That is on Ozzie. He has failed miserably in that regard and needs to be held accountable.

There is plenty of blame to go around, and how anyone can say that Ozzie did a terrific job with this group needs to have their Baseball IQ tested.

That just about sums up my feelings too.

Risk

blandman
09-15-2011, 11:33 AM
Bravo, Bravo.
Great post.

That just about sums up my feelings too.

Risk

That so many people agree with something based on incorrect information is the most disheartening thing about our fan base.

soltrain21
09-15-2011, 11:44 AM
That so many people agree with something based on incorrect information is the most disheartening thing about our fan base.

Spare me that stupid garbage.

Rocky Soprano
09-15-2011, 11:55 AM
That so many people agree with something based on incorrect information is the most disheartening thing about our fan base.

What's truly disheartening is that there are those that put on blinders and refuse to accept LOGICAL point of views. It's sad that you refuse to put any blame on Ozzie. It's ok to bend on your opinions.

Ozzie's management this year was an epic failure...

russ99
09-15-2011, 12:03 PM
What's truly disheartening is that there are those that put on blinders and refuse to accept LOGICAL point of views. It's sad that you refuse to put any blame on Ozzie. It's ok to bend on your opinions.

Ozzie's management this year was an epic failure...

That's your opinion.

I have mine: Ozzie managed the way he's always managed, but the fans are sick of him and nitpick everything he does as being incorrect, especially expounding on the things that didn't work as an example of his managing as a whole; and many things didn't work this year.

Expecting two mid-order bats making $15M a year not to play is not LOGICAL.

Expecting to never play for one run is not LOGICAL.

Expecting our hitters to pull-hit and homer our way to every win is not LOGICAL.

Expecting players to play full-time after a week of decent at-bats is not LOGICAL.

My gripes about Ozzie this year was mismanaging of the bullpen early and not benching Rios more for lazyness. Everything else is within his usual style of managing - and if you don't like that style, fine but don't assume the man is inept.

blandman
09-15-2011, 12:05 PM
Spare me that stupid garbage.

What's truly disheartening is that there are those that put on blinders and refuse to accept LOGICAL point of views. It's sad that you refuse to put any blame on Ozzie. It's ok to bend on your opinions.

Ozzie's management this year was an epic failure...

Hey, if you're agreeing with the sentiments above you fall into that category. Hating Ozzie for "lineups" is based entirely on fallacy and false impression.

dickallen15
09-15-2011, 12:13 PM
Some of us think he's being rushed now. Guy has no clue on how to play the field.



This is an emotional outburst clouding reality. You are simply remembering things wrong.

Dunn moved down plenty. He spent less than two weeks batting 3rd before he was demoted. When June came around, he was no longer pickup up cleanup duties. As the season progressed, he countinued to move down.

And look at his numbers? Look at everyone else's! The fifth spot in the order is a slugging spot. You can't put Morel there. You can't put AJ there, despite his batting average he was slugging historically low for the bulk of the year. Beckham's even more than a lost cause than Dunn. Rios got tried there plenty too. He was just as bad.

You are mad and making things up in your head to be more than they are.
81 starts batting 3rd, 4th or 5th with close to the lowest BA in MLB history, and even while now being benched, which seems odd because who else is going to hit 3rd 4th or 5th he will still fan the second most times in Sox history.

dickallen15
09-15-2011, 12:16 PM
That so many people agree with something based on incorrect information is the most disheartening thing about our fan base.
Look at your predictions, look at what you said about DRose, LMAO if you think you have the correct information and others are incorrect.

Rocky Soprano
09-15-2011, 12:17 PM
Hey, if you're agreeing with the sentiments above you fall into that category. Hating Ozzie for "lineups" is based entirely on fallacy and false impression.

Who is hating Ozzie solely for lineups?

Ward Hershberger
09-15-2011, 12:25 PM
I would agree that Ozzie has managed this year as he always has - mostly below average. from 2006 thru yesterday, in total the Sox are 7 games under .500 in September. I also Blame KW for coming into the season with no proven closer. Valverde is 44 of 44 in save situations - think having him in the Sox bullpen would have helped this year? (Sox are 39 of 58 in Save Situations as a team) KW also seldom if ever, was succesful bringing in mid-season help. on Aug 15th of this year the Sox were 3 games out on the loss side - same day Detroit got Delmon Young from the Twins - and they had already added Fister, sent Inge to the minors and got Betimit. All 3 of these moves served to fix weaknesses and helped get the Tigers on a roll. Did the Sox even attempt anything that? Both KW and OG need to go

Rocky Soprano
09-15-2011, 12:26 PM
That's your opinion.

I have mine: Ozzie managed the way he's always managed, but the fans are sick of him and nitpick everything he does as being incorrect, especially expounding on the things that didn't work as an example of his managing as a whole; and many things didn't work this year.

Expecting two mid-order bats making $15M a year not to play is not LOGICAL.

Expecting to never play for one run is not LOGICAL.

Expecting our hitters to pull-hit and homer our way to every win is not LOGICAL.

Expecting players to play full-time after a week of decent at-bats is not LOGICAL.

My gripes about Ozzie this year was mismanaging of the bullpen early and not benching Rios more for lazyness. Everything else is within his usual style of managing - and if you don't like that style, fine but don't assume the man is inept.

Who is blaming Ozzie for the big bats failing?
If you notice a trend that your team fails at playing for only one run yet you continue to play for one run, who's faut is that?
Walker, who is on Ozzie's staff and who he still defends, is who you need to look at in regards to the hitters approach.
No one has said to play HOT players full time, but at least play them while they are HOT. That IS LOGICAL.

Constant mismanaging of the bullpen and mismanaging of his lineup (not benching Rios) = being inept.

JB98
09-15-2011, 12:37 PM
You're absolutely sure he was ready to come up in June? That there wasn't something that the organization was still working on with him? I'll say again that one of the constant complaints around here is the White Sox ruining young players by rushing them to the majors before they're ready. So now, with Viciedo (who was very young and exceedingly raw) they show a little patience, and they're criticized for that.

Ken Williams wanted him called up in June. Am I absolutely sure he was ready? No. I wasn't watching Viciedo's ABs in Charlotte, but he's looked like a major league hitter to me since his recall. The GM thought Viciedo was prepared three months ago. From an offensive standpoint, I don't see any reason to disagree with that. Viciedo cannot field his position, this is true, but he could have been used at DH in place of the slumping Dunn.

But, even if you don't think Viciedo was ready in June, they could have called up De Aza. Unlike Viciedo, De Aza is not a prospect, so there was no threat of rushing him. De Aza was leading the International League in hitting at the time of his recall, and he's continued to rake since he joined the Sox.

The Sox had a couple of in-house options to try to spark the struggling offense earlier in the year. They chose not to fire either of those bullets. That was a mistake, IMO. They stayed the course and they failed.

blandman
09-15-2011, 12:43 PM
81 starts batting 3rd, 4th or 5th with close to the lowest BA in MLB history, and even while now being benched, which seems odd because who else is going to hit 3rd 4th or 5th he will still fan the second most times in Sox history.

Dunn batted 3rd or 4th 60 times. Rios did 17.

You think giving a guy with a 900+ career OPS two months to sort things out is something only Ozzie would do? Give me a ****ing break.

As I showed earlier, the fifth spot in the lineup had a rotation all year round to find someone adequate. The problem was that NO ONE WAS. Dunn failed. Rios failed. Beckham and Morel? Failures. Even AJ failed. THERE'S NOBODY LEFT TO TRY.

Blaming Ozzie for that is not just wrong. It's silly and childish.

Look at your predictions, look at what you said about DRose, LMAO if you think you have the correct information and others are incorrect.

Speaking of childish...

Who is hating Ozzie solely for lineups?

No one to my knowledge. But it is a theme for everyone blaming Ozzie. And it's just plain annoying to see people make stuff up.

Who is blaming Ozzie for the big bats failing?
If you notice a trend that your team fails at playing for only one run yet you continue to play for one run, who's faut is that?
Walker, who is on Ozzie's staff and who he still defends, is who you need to look at in regards to the hitters approach.
No one has said to play HOT players full time, but at least play them while they are HOT. That IS LOGICAL.

Constant mismanaging of the bullpen and mismanaging of his lineup (not benching Rios) = being inept.

So wait, you question who's blaming Ozzie for the bats but then say it's Ozzie to blame.

Look if you want to blame Ozzie for Dunn and Rios, that's your deal. Don't expect that not to be questioned.

If you want to blame Ozzie and Walker that Morel and Beckham are talentless hitters instead of our scouts, that's your deal. Don't expect that not to be questioned.

hi im skot
09-15-2011, 12:47 PM
This thread, much like this season, is ****ing exhausting.

TomBradley72
09-15-2011, 12:48 PM
Well thank, please tell me where I said it's all Ozzie's fault for Dunn's struggles. The fact remains, however, that Dunn went from a steady, consistent 40-HR, 900 OPS hitter to a complete nothing. What changed? It's possible the American League really is that much better than the National League. It's possible that the bright lights of Chicago were too much for him. ****, it's possible that he just ate Doritos and cheeseburgers all winter and laughed while counting all the dollars the Sox signed him for. But another change; he's here on the Sox. Perhaps there's something in the organization that helped facilitate his downward spiral, especially considering this isn't exactly the first time a well-regarded MLB player came to the Sox and bombed here.

And please, what facts do you bring up? That every other manager in the recorded annals of baseball history would do the same R/L managing Ozzie does? That every other manager ever would have batted Dunn in the middle of the order for almost the entire season because that's just, hey, Baseball 101? You offer nothing more or less to this discussion than anyone else on these boards, regardless of what you'd like to believe.

However- other players with major league experience have improved or maintained their career level performances- Pierre, Quentin, De Aza, Humber, Floyd, Thornton, Crain have all performed at or above their previous performance at the major league level- blaming some "environmental" issue on Dunn's performance seems completely ridiculous to me- he sucked in spring training- he was good for the first week of the season- then sucked ever since.

Keep in mind-he hit .199 vs. lefties in 2010, and hit .223 in the 2nd half- some stats that should have been taken into consideration before signing him.

dickallen15
09-15-2011, 12:49 PM
Dunn batted 3rd or 4th 60 times. Rios did 17.

You think giving a guy with a 900+ career OPS two months to sort things out is something only Ozzie would do? Give me a ****ing break.

As I showed earlier, the fifth spot in the lineup had a rotation all year round to find someone adequate. The problem was that NO ONE WAS. Dunn failed. Rios failed. Beckham and Morel? Failures. Even AJ failed. THERE'S NOBODY LEFT TO TRY.

Blaming Ozzie for that is not just wrong. It's silly and childish.



Speaking of childish...



No one to my knowledge. But it is a theme for everyone blaming Ozzie. And it's just plain annoying to see people make stuff up.



So wait, you question who's blaming Ozzie for the bats but then say it's Ozzie to blame.

Look if you want to blame Ozzie for Dunn and Rios, that's your deal. Don't expect that not to be questioned.

If you want to blame Ozzie and Walker that Morel and Beckham are talentless hitters instead of our scouts, that's your deal. Don't expect that not to be questioned.

I love the smarter than the rest of us tone you take, but your history shows otherwise. You don't keep a guy hitting .165 who strikeouts almost half the time in the 3,4 or 5 hole 81 times. It doesn't happen, and if you think it is justified, why aren't you up in arms he's still not batting there?

Lip Man 1
09-15-2011, 12:51 PM
Ward:

Kenny told the mainstream media at the trading deadline that because they were up against the wall financially and weren't drawing well (because of their poor performance) he was unable to get help...any help would have to come from within.

Lip

blandman
09-15-2011, 12:53 PM
I love the smarter than the rest of us tone you take, but your history shows otherwise. You don't keep a guy hitting .165 who strikeouts almost half the time in the 3,4 or 5 hole 81 times. It doesn't happen, and if you think it is justified, why aren't you up in arms he's still not batting there?

Because it was a natural progression down in the lineup. It wasn't all year, and the whole lineup below him was just as bad. If Dunn and Rios batted 8 and 9 starting in June, I can say with extreme confidence we'd still be in the exact same position, give or take 1 or 2 games in either direction.

It's easier to give the "smarter than you" attitude when people are blatantly misrepresenting the situation to make a point.

dickallen15
09-15-2011, 01:09 PM
Because it was a natural progression down in the lineup. It wasn't all year, and the whole lineup below him was just as bad. If Dunn and Rios batted 8 and 9 starting in June, I can say with extreme confidence we'd still be in the exact same position, give or take 1 or 2 games in either direction.

It's easier to give the "smarter than you" attitude when people are blatantly misrepresenting the situation to make a point.


No one in the line up was as consistantly bad as Dunn. His best month he hit .204, and hasn't hit .170 any other month. You have no idea what you are talking about. Again. You can say if they batted 8th and 9th the Sox would be in no better shape than they are today all you want, you have no proof of that.

#1swisher
09-15-2011, 01:14 PM
Ken Rosenthal - Ozzie: Going, going...

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/ozzie_going_going/6791047

blandman
09-15-2011, 01:19 PM
No one in the line up was as consistantly bad as Dunn. His best month he hit .204, and hasn't hit .170 any other month. You have no idea what you are talking about. Again. You can say if they batted 8th and 9th the Sox would be in no better shape than they are today all you want, you have no proof of that.

Everyone in the bottom of the lineup was slugging under .400 at the halfway point. There is really no discernible difference in any of their seasons. Batting average is a ridiculously terrible metric to determine the value of a hitter, especially a hitter in a run production role. AJ was batting .290 in the first half. But slugging .390 and leading the league in GIDP. Should he have batted fifth? Yeah right.

Ward Hershberger
09-15-2011, 01:20 PM
Ward:

Kenny told the mainstream media at the trading deadline that because they were up against the wall financially and weren't drawing well (because of their poor performance) he was unable to get help...any help would have to come from within.

Lip
Understood, and not just talking about KW's 2011, but seeing the pieces the Tigers added prior to, and during this season, compared to what the Sox didn't do - is very discouraging

doublem23
09-15-2011, 01:23 PM
That so many people agree with something based on incorrect information is the most disheartening thing about our fan base.

:violin:

womp womp

kittle42
09-15-2011, 01:29 PM
This thread sucks. Can we just trade or fire Ozzie and fire Kenny and start another thread talking about how much the new guys will suck?

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2011, 01:32 PM
This thread sucks. Can we just trade or fire Ozzie and fire Kenny and start another thread talking about how much the new guys will suck?Might as well. As soon as we know who the next manager will be, someone will make a "fire XYZ" tag.

russ99
09-15-2011, 01:40 PM
Ken Williams wanted him called up in June. Am I absolutely sure he was ready? No. I wasn't watching Viciedo's ABs in Charlotte, but he's looked like a major league hitter to me since his recall. The GM thought Viciedo was prepared three months ago. From an offensive standpoint, I don't see any reason to disagree with that. Viciedo cannot field his position, this is true, but he could have been used at DH in place of the slumping Dunn.

But, even if you don't think Viciedo was ready in June, they could have called up De Aza. Unlike Viciedo, De Aza is not a prospect, so there was no threat of rushing him. De Aza was leading the International League in hitting at the time of his recall, and he's continued to rake since he joined the Sox.

The Sox had a couple of in-house options to try to spark the struggling offense earlier in the year. They chose not to fire either of those bullets. That was a mistake, IMO. They stayed the course and they failed.

The GM is the one who calls up and sends down players. And yet up until September first, he did nothing in regards to changing to the roster other than a few call-ups due to players placed on the DL and the Jackson for Stewart/Frasor trade.

So if you want to look at who didn't use in-house options, look squarely at "Mr. All In".

doublem23
09-15-2011, 01:54 PM
The GM is the one who calls up and sends down players. And yet up until September first, he did nothing in regards to changing to the roster other than a few call-ups due to players placed on the DL and the Jackson for Stewart/Frasor trade.

So if you want to look at who didn't use in-house options, look squarely at "Mr. All In".

:rolleyes:

And the manager makes the everyday lineup, and has, even in garbage time, still not played his younger players consistently.

Again, blame everywhere.

Rocky Soprano
09-15-2011, 01:55 PM
So wait, you question who's blaming Ozzie for the bats but then say it's Ozzie to blame.

Look if you want to blame Ozzie for Dunn and Rios, that's your deal. Don't expect that not to be questioned.

If you want to blame Ozzie and Walker that Morel and Beckham are talentless hitters instead of our scouts, that's your deal. Don't expect that not to be questioned.

Where did I say that Ozzie was to blame for Dunn and Rios?
I've NEVER said that.
I do blame Ozzie for batting them so high in the lineup CONSTANTLY and for not having the balls to bench them.

It is not Ozzie's fault that Rios and Dunn are having crappy years, is that clear now?

Rocky Soprano
09-15-2011, 02:03 PM
Speaking of childish...

Look if you want to blame Ozzie for Dunn and Rios, that's your deal. Don't expect that not to be questioned.

If you want to blame Ozzie and Walker that Morel and Beckham are talentless hitters instead of our scouts, that's your deal. Don't expect that not to be questioned.

So you tell me, don't expect not to be questioned BUT
when you get called out on your previous gems its called being childish?

:rolleyes:

doublem23
09-15-2011, 02:03 PM
Where did I say that Ozzie was to blame for Dunn and Rios?
I've NEVER said that.
I do blame Ozzie for batting them so high in the lineup CONSTANTLY and for not having the balls to bench them.

It is not Ozzie's fault that Rios and Dunn are having crappy years, is that clear now?

Yeah, as far as I can tell, I'm the only one in this thread who has posted something like that. I'm more than willing to answer those questions. Now, if I made it seem like I think Ozzie and only Ozzie are to blame for Dunn's struggles this season, then that was a miscommunication on my part and I am sorry. Buuuuuuuuuuut.... One of Ozzie's strengths, at least so I have been told, is that he's the quintessential "player's manager," and that he gets the most out of his guys. Dunn's not the first established, veteran player to come here and completely fall flat on his face. A lot of that is on Dunn, of course. Now, I'm not blaming Ozzie or Walk or anyone for turning Dunn into a 250-pound utility infielder, but I do think that perhaps a different manager and a different hitting coach could have help guide him back to success. This is a moot argument, we'll find out in 2012.

Rocky Soprano
09-15-2011, 02:07 PM
Yeah, as far as I can tell, I'm the only one in this thread who has posted something like that. I'm more than willing to answer those questions. Now, if I made it seem like I think Ozzie and only Ozzie are to blame for Dunn's struggles this season, then that was a miscommunication on my part and I am sorry. Buuuuuuuuuuut.... One of Ozzie's strengths, at least so I have been told, is that he's the quintessential "player's manager," and that he gets the most out of his guys. Dunn's not the first established, veteran player to come here and completely fall flat on his face. A lot of that is on Dunn, of course. Now, I'm not blaming Ozzie or Walk or anyone for turning Dunn into a 250-pound utility infielder, but I do think that perhaps a different manager and a different hitting coach could have help guide him back to success. This is a moot argument, we'll find out in 2012.

You've said it better than I can.

kittle42
09-15-2011, 02:14 PM
KW should be fired. The Sox traded Bullfrog - the only player they've got - for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen - a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders.

blandman
09-15-2011, 02:15 PM
So you tell me, don't expect not to be questioned BUT
when you get called out on your previous gems its called being childish?

:rolleyes:

Being "called out" for a prediction as opposed to being "called out" for lying are two different things.

His response was more of the nananana you were wrong once, infinite argument killer. There's a huge difference there.

pudge
09-15-2011, 02:17 PM
Ozzie, however, I am ****ing sick of. I'm sick of his little antics. I'm sick of his terrible in-game managament. I'm sick of his whiny, defensive bull**** everytime someone asks him a tough question. I'm sick of his embarrassing, stupid kids. I'm sick of his crew of former player coaches. I'm sick of him openly pining for a new deal in the middle of a pennant race. I don't like him as the manager of my favorite team. You're right, probably a lot of this team's underachieving was out of his control, but what I have seen that was in his control (his lineup, his in-game strategy, etc.) was terrible. I'm tired of him, I think a lot of the guys in the clubhouse are tired of him, and as long as he's forced to be #2 to KW, I don't think it's going to get better. So fire him and see what happens.

that pretty much nails my feelings. this org has a long way to go to get me interested again. I've barely watched baseball the past two years, which is stunning to me. I'm tired of slow-out-of-the-gate, underperforming clubs with a manager who runs an AL team like it's an NL team. When you can tell the team doesn't have a chance by the end of May, what is the point? I have no idea if a new manager will wind up being better, but it's worth a shot.

dickallen15
09-15-2011, 02:19 PM
Being "called out" for a prediction as opposed to being "called out" for lying are two different things.

His response was more of the nananana you were wrong once, infinite argument killer. There's a huge difference there.

No, you are wrong again, and no one here is lying unless its you because you think you have all the answers. Why isn't Dunn batting 5th right now?

blandman
09-15-2011, 02:22 PM
No, you are wrong again, and no one here is lying unless its you because you think you have all the answers. Why isn't Dunn batting 5th right now?

Because it's September, we're losing, and we had call-ups.

And, once again, to say Ozzie had Dunn and Rios in key lineup spots all season is a lie. LIE.

Saying Ozzie took too long to move them down is a lie. LIE. Both of them moved down fairly quickly.

To say they should have been batting 8 and 9 all year because there were better options is a misrepresentation. Not only were the people below them just as ineffective, but Ozzie moved them all up at different times to feel it out.

doublem23
09-15-2011, 02:32 PM
Because it's September, we're losing, and we had call-ups.

And, once again, to say Ozzie had Dunn and Rios in key lineup spots all season is a lie. LIE.

Saying Ozzie took too long to move them down is a lie. LIE. Both of them moved down fairly quickly.


Oh, please, cut the ****, Dunn didn't move down to the lower 1/3 of the order until the last week of May and was back, batting 4th in the order in meaningful games as recently as August 18, when the Sox were still only 4 games out.

If it is your opinion that these are acceptable timetables for a player with the history and season like Adam Dunn, then by all means feel free to express your views on our boards as such. But don't you dare come here and calling other posters liars because they have the *GASP* audacity to disagree with you and your assessment of the situation. Maybe try dialing it down a tad, friend.

blandman
09-15-2011, 02:54 PM
Oh, please, cut the ****, Dunn didn't move down to the lower 1/3 of the order until the last week of May and was back, batting 4th in the order in meaningful games as recently as August 18, when the Sox were still only 4 games out.

If it is your opinion that these are acceptable timetables for a player with the history and season like Adam Dunn, then by all means feel free to express your views on our boards as such. But don't you dare come here and calling other posters liars because they have the *GASP* audacity to disagree with you and your assessment of the situation. Maybe try dialing it down a tad, friend.

You cut the ****, batting 5 or 6 was the best option the bulk of the season. Morel was young and struggling, Beckham was young and struggling, AJ was horrific every time they moved him up in the first half, and Rios was actually worse than Dunn in the first half. If you think he shouldn't have been batting 5 or 6, that's what is an opinion. Stating Ozzie should be fired, or called to task for batting Dunn there, is an opinion. And neither of those opinions on grounded on reasonable thinking.

SI1020
09-15-2011, 02:56 PM
KW should be fired. The Sox traded Bullfrog - the only player they've got - for Shottenhoffen. Four-eyes Shottenhoffen - a utility infielder. They've got a whole team of utility infielders. I searched and searched in vain for that scene.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085334/

dickallen15
09-15-2011, 03:03 PM
Because it's September, we're losing, and we had call-ups.

And, once again, to say Ozzie had Dunn and Rios in key lineup spots all season is a lie. LIE.

Saying Ozzie took too long to move them down is a lie. LIE. Both of them moved down fairly quickly.

To say they should have been batting 8 and 9 all year because there were better options is a misrepresentation. Not only were the people below them just as ineffective, but Ozzie moved them all up at different times to feel it out.
Its no LIE, it is truth. For some guy who always tries to find some obscure stat to try to make you horrific argument at least considerable, like the one you used for DRose's passing ability, you sure do get generic about this topic saying it didn't matter who batted 3rd or 4th or 5th. Be consistent, and they weren't as ineffective. How many games were played with Dunn and Rios in the line up and neither was hitting 5th or higher? It wasn't working. Dunn was hitting like a pitcher and some advanced metrics said Rios was worse. Ozzie said its important to finish second so the coaches get Christmas money, so using your logic Dunn should bat 4th. Of course, Rios is hitting 4th tonight.

Daver
09-15-2011, 03:15 PM
Might as well. As soon as we know who the next manager will be, someone will make a "fire XYZ" tag.

I asked WU make the "Fire Ozzie" tag the day he was hired.

tstrike2000
09-15-2011, 04:10 PM
Speaking of ad nauseum...

As I said earlier, and then repeated again twice, Dunn batted in the 3 spot 37 times total. He batted cleanup 23 times. He batted fifth 20 times.

Rios has batted 3rd a grand total of 6 times. He batted fourth a grand total of 10 times. He batted fifth only 21 times.

Does that sound like all year? Wasn't most of that in the first half? Is Ozzie physic now? And who else was there? Morel had no power, you want him batting fifth? Beckham is struggling mentally as bad as Dunn. AJ had a lower slugging percentage than Dunn in the first half, and led the league in GIDP at the time. Juan, Quentin, PK, and TCM all spent more than 2/3 of the season batting ahead of those guys. So the impression that Ozzie ****ed up the lineup, or that Ozzie held back better lineups is simply bull****.

I don't care how many automatic outs the Sox have, putting a .160 hitter that many times, that high in the lineup is not smart. I don't care if he's making 80 million dollars a year. No proven, pedigreed manager would continuously do that.

kittle42
09-15-2011, 04:23 PM
I don't care how many automatic outs the Sox have, putting a .160 hitter that many times, that high in the lineup is not smart. I don't care if he's making 80 million dollars a year. No proven, pedigreed manager would continuously do that.

I generally agree, though AJ Pierzynski may actually be a worse No. 4 hitter. :D:

TheOldRoman
09-15-2011, 04:24 PM
I asked WU make the "Fire Ozzie" tag the day he was hired.How did you know he would be a bad manager? Did you base your assessment off three videotapes of him managing in the minors?

Nellie_Fox
09-15-2011, 04:28 PM
How did you know he would be a bad manager? Did you base your assessment off three videotapes of him managing in the minors?I know that you're taking a shot here about Viciedo. I'm still amazed that people ridicule Daver for making an assessment of Viciedo's defensive prowess based on having seen video, but NOBODY ridiculed all the people who said "Viciedo will be fine in right field" based on absolutely nothing but what they wanted to believe and an idea that outfield defense is unimportant.

kittle42
09-15-2011, 04:36 PM
I know that you're taking a shot here about Viciedo. I'm still amazed that people ridicule Daver for making an assessment of Viciedo's defensive prowess based on having seen video, but NOBODY ridiculed all the people who said "Viciedo will be fine in right field" based on absolutely nothing but what they wanted to believe and an idea that outfield defense is unimportant.

That's why I find it easier to ridicule all of them.

blandman
09-15-2011, 04:37 PM
So you tell me, don't expect not to be questioned BUT
when you get called out on your previous gems its called being childish?

:rolleyes:

Not having a response and pointing to something irrelevant and unrelated to "get someone" is the epitomy of childish behavior.

Its no LIE, it is truth. For some guy who always tries to find some obscure stat to try to make you horrific argument at least considerable, like the one you used for DRose's passing ability, you sure do get generic about this topic saying it didn't matter who batted 3rd or 4th or 5th. Be consistent, and they weren't as ineffective. How many games were played with Dunn and Rios in the line up and neither was hitting 5th or higher? It wasn't working. Dunn was hitting like a pitcher and some advanced metrics said Rios was worse. Ozzie said its important to finish second so the coaches get Christmas money, so using your logic Dunn should bat 4th. Of course, Rios is hitting 4th tonight.

LOL...you mean the passing metric that basketball scouts use to determine value in a point guard? One that every NBA team pays a firm to get? Yeah, okay. I use "obscure" stats. Not that it matters, because this has nothing to do with the argument at hand.

The vast majority of games Dunn batted 3rd or 4th were in April and May. We're really talking about the 5 hole. In which, after May, Dunn played a total of 20 games in. Rios has batted 5th or higher a grand total of 12 times since May. The rest of the games, the VAST MAJORITY OF THE SEASON, Ozzie was moving all those guys at the bottom around, trying to find someone, anyone, who would hit there. Everyone had a fair shake of moving up, and everyone failed.

I don't care how many automatic outs the Sox have, putting a .160 hitter that many times, that high in the lineup is not smart. I don't care if he's making 80 million dollars a year. No proven, pedigreed manager would continuously do that.

This is a tired and incorrect argument. By this logic Mike Scioscia would be out of a job. In 2007, not only did he not remove the completely inept Gary Mathews Jr. from his lineup, but he continued to plug him into key spots. 34 games leading off, 82 games batting 3, 4, or 5, and 16 more batting sixth.

You, personally, might think it's appropriate to take people making tons of money and just bury them the second they struggle. But that's not the reality of baseball.

blandman
09-15-2011, 04:39 PM
:tomatoaward:tomatoaward

JC456
09-15-2011, 04:49 PM
Ugh.

This is so tiring the way people spin things like there was another option just to pass on their rage filled agenda.

Yes, he batted fifth a lot. Why? Because there was NO ONE ELSE TO BAT THERE.

1 2 3 4

Pierre Ramirez Konerko Quentin

For the bulk of the season.

Now who bats fifth? Rios? Well, that was tried plenty too. Morel? Not a chance. Beckham? That kids more mental than Dunn. AJ? Through the first hundred games, AJ was slugging WORSE than Dunn.

No, there is no right answer. And I don't mean to pick on just you, because it's a lot of people saying this. But there's no basis for this argument. It's either ignorance of the facts, or manipulating facts to push an agenda. And neither of those are good. Or right.
Well if you didn't have someone to bat there than you tell the GM to get you a hitter for the slot! The issue was the team did nothing!!!!!!!!!!

Fans spent hard earned money to watch what they thought was going to be a productive team. That didn't happen. So what, the team management just shrugs their shoulders and says oh well? Well that 'oh well' they did use has me dropping my season package! I refuse to give bad business people my hard earned dollar!

TheOldRoman
09-15-2011, 04:50 PM
I know that you're taking a shot here about Viciedo. I'm still amazed that people ridicule Daver for making an assessment of Viciedo's defensive prowess based on having seen video, but NOBODY ridiculed all the people who said "Viciedo will be fine in right field" based on absolutely nothing but what they wanted to believe and an idea that outfield defense is unimportant.I wasn't in the boat that Viciedo would be a great RF, but there are different forms of evaluating defense. Considering Daver's ridiculous "Aaron Rowand is not a centerfielder" posts and his long history of hyperbole in evaluating defense, I wouldn't say his evaluation based on a few Zapruder films of Tank playing RF is the best source. He has also argued that players basically are what they are defensively and can't improve, and that is false. I am not claiming that Rowand was a great CF, but if Viciedo is "not a rightfielder" in the same way that Rowand was "not a centerfielder," the Sox will be fine.

JC456
09-15-2011, 05:01 PM
I wasn't in the boat that Viciedo would be a great RF, but there are different forms of evaluating defense. Considering Daver's ridiculous "Aaron Rowand is not a centerfielder" posts and his long history of hyperbole in evaluating defense, I wouldn't say his evaluation based on a few Zapruder films of Tank playing RF is the best source. He has also argued that players basically are what they are defensively and can't improve, and that is false. I am not claiming that Rowand was a great CF, but if Viciedo is "not a rightfielder" in the same way that Rowand was "not a centerfielder," the Sox will be fine.
Then trade Vicedo and get someone who can play there. Again the Sox have done nothing. discussions about it only takes up ink and time!

Risk
09-15-2011, 05:10 PM
That so many people agree with something based on incorrect information is the most disheartening thing about our fan base.

Not that I want to feed your need for attention, but since you qouted me, I feel obligated to respond in the same manner as you did here (mostly based on conjecture).

Your above statement is yet another one of your gems that are not based on any information other than that which exists in your own mind. Granted, it still isn't anywhere near as accurate as your Derrick Rose predictions, but those would be tough to top.

Risk

doublem23
09-15-2011, 05:11 PM
I know that you're taking a shot here about Viciedo. I'm still amazed that people ridicule Daver for making an assessment of Viciedo's defensive prowess based on having seen video, but NOBODY ridiculed all the people who said "Viciedo will be fine in right field" based on absolutely nothing but what they wanted to believe and an idea that outfield defense is unimportant.

Because one is an utterly nonsensical extremist position based on... well, it's based on nothing, while the other is a "go with the flow" kind of thing. You can't chide people in one thread for being so hell-bent on their viewpoints that they take a borderline ridiculous stance and then back someone up for doing the very same thing in another.

In any case, chill out people. Viciedo will be fine.

blandman
09-15-2011, 05:35 PM
Because one is an utterly nonsensical extremist position based on... well, it's based on nothing, while the other is a "go with the flow" kind of thing. You can't chide people in one thread for being so hell-bent on their viewpoints that they take a borderline ridiculous stance and then back someone up for doing the very same thing in another.

In any case, chill out people. Viciedo will be fine.

I don't know, he's pretty awful out there. I might be more comfortable with him at first, but PK is there. And Dunn's our DH most nights, like it or not. Trading him is probably the best option, but you're also not going to get good value for a young DH prospect when every young player in everyone's system is a young cheap option at that position.

tstrike2000
09-15-2011, 05:51 PM
This is a tired and incorrect argument. By this logic Mike Scioscia would be out of a job. In 2007, not only did he not remove the completely inept Gary Mathews Jr. from his lineup, but he continued to plug him into key spots. 34 games leading off, 82 games batting 3, 4, or 5, and 16 more batting sixth.

You, personally, might think it's appropriate to take people making tons of money and just bury them the second they struggle. But that's not the reality of baseball.

C'mon now, Matthews Jr. ended up hitting .252 with 18 HR and 72 RBI's in 140 games that year, which isn't that bad. You're comparing Matthews Jr. to Dunn's pile of hot feces. Plus, Scoscia had to be doing something right that year, the team won the division with a record of 94-68.

I neither said it was about the money or that you sit someone the moment they struggle. Ozzie gave Dunn ample time and he sucked for nearly five months straight, five.

soxinem1
09-15-2011, 05:53 PM
Do you think our two longest-running players and team leaders would have come back after hitting free agency last year if the locker room was so poisonous?

This is a good point however there is more to that as well.

At the end of the season in 2010, judging by the comments and expressions of AJ and PK they kind of had a 'final' look to them. Konerko even said himself he felt he was gone when Dunn was signed.

However the West-Coast market for Konerko never shaped up the way he had hoped, with only BAL, a losing AL East team, supposedly willing to give him big $$$$. ARI, LAAA, and LAD either didn't want to spend the $$$$ or had players acceptable to be a 1B, so they were never really options.

PK's relationship with Reinsdorf cannot be over-looked either.......

AJ was supposedly close to signing with TOR, but may have also realized that they, like TB, could be 15-20 games over .500 in the AL East and still be irrelevant in the playoff standings, while here that type of record at least has you in the thick of things come September.

AJ and Paulie have also been Ozzie favorites for a long time as well, and along with Buehrle has never ripped them publicly, so obviously they have a better relationship with him, or all three could have left by now.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2011, 06:49 PM
Soxinem1:

A.J. was actually close to signing with the Dodgers according to him. He was about to call his Mom to tell her he was headed west when his agent called and said that JR stepped in with a two year offer.

Kenny was ready to let him go and was opening negotiations with Miguel Olivo.

Lipo

A. Cavatica
09-15-2011, 09:15 PM
You realize that it's nitpicking to the highest level.

"nitpicking" implies we're quibbling over small things.

On the contrary, many of us feel that Ozzie's incompetence reached Bevington levels this year.

soxinem1
09-15-2011, 09:23 PM
On the contrary, many of us feel that Ozzie's incompetence reached Bevington levels this year.

Dad gum right about that....

russ99
09-15-2011, 09:32 PM
"nitpicking" implies we're quibbling over small things.

On the contrary, many of us feel that Ozzie's incompetence reached Bevington levels this year.

That's your opinion.

Mine is Ozzie managed this team like every other he has managed and some important players cashed their checks and decided not to show up.

To compare him to Bevington is an insult. He tried all kinds of things to get this team going this year and nothing worked. Bevington tried jack.

IMO - complaining about the lineup every day = quibbling over small things.

A. Cavatica
09-15-2011, 09:57 PM
IMO - complaining about the lineup every day = quibbling over small things.

Complaining about the lineup on a day-to-day basis is indeed quibbling, but look at the allocation of playing time over the course of the season.

163 AB for Vizquel (.576 OPS)
376 AB for Dunn (.577)
118 AB for Teahen (.582)
505 AB for Rios (.591)
456 AB for Beckham (.616)
369 AB for Morel (.651)
587 AB for Pierre (.673)

That's more than 2500 AB for players who don't deserve major league jobs, and that list includes five regulars.

So yes, Ozzie should be fired. Ozzie makes the ****ing lineups. He could've played Lillibridge more, he could've used Viciedo and de Aza and Flowers sooner.

And Walker should be fired because these guys didn't hit.

And Williams should be fired for orchestrating this whole train wreck.

In the case of the lineups, you have a fair point that he could only play the crap handed to him by Williams and coached into a stupor by Walker. But the lineup selection is just one of a long list of his serious flaws, and the other ones can't be pinned on Walker or Williams as easily.

JB98
09-15-2011, 10:21 PM
The GM is the one who calls up and sends down players. And yet up until September first, he did nothing in regards to changing to the roster other than a few call-ups due to players placed on the DL and the Jackson for Stewart/Frasor trade.

So if you want to look at who didn't use in-house options, look squarely at "Mr. All In".

Of course. Kenny hasn't done a good job the last couple years either. It's asinine that he has deferred to Ozzie on roster decisions. The GM is supposed to have the final say on the roster.

blandman
09-15-2011, 10:56 PM
Complaining about the lineup on a day-to-day basis is indeed quibbling, but look at the allocation of playing time over the course of the season.

163 AB for Vizquel (.576 OPS)
376 AB for Dunn (.577)
118 AB for Teahen (.582)
505 AB for Rios (.591)
456 AB for Beckham (.616)
369 AB for Morel (.651)
587 AB for Pierre (.673)

That's more than 2500 AB for players who don't deserve major league jobs, and that list includes five regulars.

So yes, Ozzie should be fired. Ozzie makes the ****ing lineups. He could've played Lillibridge more, he could've used Viciedo and de Aza and Flowers sooner.

And Walker should be fired because these guys didn't hit.

And Williams should be fired for orchestrating this whole train wreck.

In the case of the lineups, you have a fair point that he could only play the crap handed to him by Williams and coached into a stupor by Walker. But the lineup selection is just one of a long list of his serious flaws, and the other ones can't be pinned on Walker or Williams as easily.

You do realize the general manager decides what players are on the 25 man roster, not the field manager? Right? Right?

dickallen15
09-16-2011, 07:24 AM
You do realize the general manager decides what players are on the 25 man roster, not the field manager? Right? Right?
You do realize you said before the season this was a 97 win team? Right? Right? There's no doubt KW deserves blame and the same fate as Ozzie, but there's also no doubt Ozzie deserves to be the ex-White Sox manager.

doublem23
09-16-2011, 08:44 AM
Of course. Kenny hasn't done a good job the last couple years either. It's asinine that he has deferred to Ozzie on roster decisions. The GM is supposed to have the final say on the roster.

I guess, but the two still need to work in concert with one another to achieve the right balance. The general manager's focus is supposed to be on the long-term health of the organization, the field manager's is supposed to be the day-to-day affairs of the club, so to say that the field manager should essentially be a lite version of the GM I don't know is necessarily accurate of how most teams function.

TomBradley72
09-16-2011, 08:46 AM
Complaining about the lineup on a day-to-day basis is indeed quibbling, but look at the allocation of playing time over the course of the season.

163 AB for Vizquel (.576 OPS)
376 AB for Dunn (.577)
118 AB for Teahen (.582)
505 AB for Rios (.591)
456 AB for Beckham (.616)
369 AB for Morel (.651)
587 AB for Pierre (.673)

That's more than 2500 AB for players who don't deserve major league jobs, and that list includes five regulars.

So yes, Ozzie should be fired. Ozzie makes the ****ing lineups. He could've played Lillibridge more, he could've used Viciedo and de Aza and Flowers sooner.

And Walker should be fired because these guys didn't hit.

And Williams should be fired for orchestrating this whole train wreck.

In the case of the lineups, you have a fair point that he could only play the crap handed to him by Williams and coached into a stupor by Walker. But the lineup selection is just one of a long list of his serious flaws, and the other ones can't be pinned on Walker or Williams as easily.

That's about 50% of the position players on the roster- what was he supposed to do? Play the Charlotte Knights?

blandman
09-16-2011, 09:00 AM
You do realize you said before the season this was a 97 win team? Right? Right? There's no doubt KW deserves blame and the same fate as Ozzie, but there's also no doubt Ozzie deserves to be the ex-White Sox manager.

A prediction is not the same thing as stating something as truth that can be proven false.

I see nothing in what Ozzie did this year that should lead to him being fired. The "lineup" stuff that keeps being brought up is based on imagination. The numbers show an entirely different story.

The body of evidence stuff has more to do with KW and the teams he put together. If Ozzie were to be fired, last year was the year to do it. The DH committee thing was brutal.

captain54
09-16-2011, 01:26 PM
The body of evidence stuff has more to do with KW and the teams he put together. If Ozzie were to be fired, last year was the year to do it. The DH committee thing was brutal.

KW will fall on the sword like a good soldier, but if you think the roster decisions and signings are all of KW's doing, you are seriously misinformed.

JC456
09-16-2011, 02:12 PM
I wonder if anyone ever thought to check Adam Dunn's eyesight. If you watch his at bats, he missed the ball often by quite a lot. Almost like he didn't see it. And the pitches he took at times right down the middle really confused me for a man with so much power not to swing at. The team was busy checking his head and maybe they should have checked his eyes.

Also, I watched almost all of the games this year and when I watched Dunn's at bats, I never saw him change his stance. And if he did, it was so slight I couldn't see a difference. Heck he could have tried hitting right handed just to change it up and change his sight, but nope!

That was my frustration watching Dunn this year. And I was one who really thought he'd be special. No idea he'd be so special he stunk!

BTW, Rios wasn't much different.

blandman
09-16-2011, 02:14 PM
KW will fall on the sword like a good soldier, but if you think the roster decisions and signings are all of KW's doing, you are seriously misinformed.

Do yourself a favor and lookup what a general manager does.

blandman
09-16-2011, 02:16 PM
I wonder if anyone ever thought to check Adam Dunn's eyesight. If you watch his at bats, he missed the ball often by quite a lot. Almost like he didn't see it. And the pitches he took at times right down the middle really confused me for a man with so much power not to swing at. The team was busy checking his head and maybe they should have checked his eyes.

Also, I watched almost all of the games this year and when I watched Dunn's at bats, I never saw him change his stance. And if he did, it was so slight I couldn't see a difference. Heck he could have tried hitting right handed just to change it up and change his sight, but nope!

That was my frustration watching Dunn this year. And I was one who really thought he'd be special. No idea he'd be so special he stunk!

BTW, Rios wasn't much different.

His bat speed was slower too.

People have pointed out that this was actually evident in the second half last year; I haven't looked into it, but if that's true we are probably in for a world of hurt. Players do fall off the map in their thirties. The smart money is on that.

asindc
09-16-2011, 02:18 PM
I wonder if anyone ever thought to check Adam Dunn's eyesight. If you watch his at bats, he missed the ball often by quite a lot. Almost like he didn't see it. And the pitches he took at times right down the middle really confused me for a man with so much power not to swing at. The team was busy checking his head and maybe they should have checked his eyes.

Also, I watched almost all of the games this year and when I watched Dunn's at bats, I never saw him change his stance. And if he did, it was so slight I couldn't see a difference. Heck he could have tried hitting right handed just to change it up and change his sight, but nope!

That was my frustration watching Dunn this year. And I was one who really thought he'd be special. No idea he'd be so special he stunk!

BTW, Rios wasn't much different.

I've been wondering that myself. Just yesterday, in fact, I was thinking that Dunn's eyesight should be checked. Now that the subject has come up, Dunn needs a comprehensive review, physical, mental, emotional. I am convinced that the average HS slugger could make more contact than he did this year.

ChiSoxGal85
09-16-2011, 02:34 PM
I wonder if anyone ever thought to check Adam Dunn's eyesight. If you watch his at bats, he missed the ball often by quite a lot. Almost like he didn't see it. And the pitches he took at times right down the middle really confused me for a man with so much power not to swing at. The team was busy checking his head and maybe they should have checked his eyes.

This article ran recently:

Dunn scoffs at vision issue, will still get checked (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/7667/dunn-scoffs-at-vision-issue-will-still-get-checked)

I hope he's decided that he actually needs to work on hitting over the offseason. It might have worked for him in the past to not pick up a bat, but he obviously needs to do something differently now.

Golden Sox
09-16-2011, 03:57 PM
Whats more important? Replacing Williams? Replacing Ozzie? Or replacing/ getting rid of Dunn and Rios? I don't care who really runs this team next year. Whoever does run this team simply can't have Rios and Dunn on it. I would rather see Dunn and Rios gone than Williams and Ozzie. Will a new manager make Rios and Dunn more productive in 2012?

Goose
09-16-2011, 04:02 PM
Whats more important? Replacing Williams? Replacing Ozzie? Or replacing/ getting rid of Dunn and Rios? I don't care who really runs this team next year. Whoever does run this team simply can't have Rios and Dunn on it. I would rather see Dunn and Rios gone than Williams and Ozzie. Will a new manager make Rios and Dunn more productive in 2012?

How the hell is that going to happen? The only way, as I see it is DFA them. Pay them to be off the team. It would be a real tall order to trade them, as far as I can tell.

slavko
09-16-2011, 04:50 PM
How the hell is that going to happen? The only way, as I see it is DFA them. Pay them to be off the team. It would be a real tall order to trade them, as far as I can tell.

We'll have to pay part of their salary, like the Phils did for Thome. A trade is certainly possible if we want to reduce the other team's payout to market value. That's about half of what these 2 are signed for. Still better than DFA and pay 100%.

blandman
09-16-2011, 05:02 PM
Whats more important? Replacing Williams? Replacing Ozzie? Or replacing/ getting rid of Dunn and Rios? I don't care who really runs this team next year. Whoever does run this team simply can't have Rios and Dunn on it. I would rather see Dunn and Rios gone than Williams and Ozzie. Will a new manager make Rios and Dunn more productive in 2012?

Dunn and Rios will be back. We're not going to release them with all those years left, and nobody is going to take on any piece of their salaries.

Goose
09-16-2011, 05:11 PM
We'll have to pay part of their salary, like the Phils did for Thome. A trade is certainly possible if we want to reduce the other team's payout to market value. That's about half of what these 2 are signed for. Still better than DFA and pay 100%.

I bet it is more than half...not sure, but I would say 76-80%...there are a whole lotta years left!

palehozenychicty
09-16-2011, 05:25 PM
No, I think the flaws of the organization are much deeper.

IMO the whole "Ozzie's distractions" aired out in the press have very little to do with the day to day workings of the clubhouse.

IF Jerry acts like a big market owner and invests in the draft and player development; rewards our core players with market value extensions instead of counting down to when they can ditch them before free agency; and hires staff on merit other than cost and/or if they are "Sox family"...

IF Kenny can put his ego aside and make deals to build the team instead of taking crazy risks on flashy players, and bring in young talented players other than older half-washed up veterans or promoting not-ready kids just to fill a spot...

IF the club can put aside the old notion that the Sox can simply slug themselves to victory that goes well past Greg Walker's title...

...then maybe they can do better after Ozzie is gone.

IMO, changes need to come from the top before we see the level of success that Sox fans have been demanding. All firing Ozzie and members of is staff will do is put a nice face on for the press that they're making changes, while it's business as usual upstairs.

The quote in bold is really the key. Uncle Jerry, however, has been owner for too long and I don't see him drastically changing his ways to make this team a perennial division winner. He likes to be involved, and that affects everything.

A. Cavatica
09-16-2011, 10:24 PM
I searched for this before posting, apologies if I missed it.

According to Bob Nightengale's twitter feed http://twitter.com/#!/BNightengale/status/114716597897273345
Ozzie can come back if he wants to. :angry:

WhiteSoxOnly
09-16-2011, 10:28 PM
I searched for this before posting, apologies if I missed it.

According to Bob Nightengale's twitter feed http://twitter.com/#!/BNightengale/status/114716597897273345
Ozzie can come back if he wants to. :angry:

Swell.Another year of this ****.Where do we sign up ?

Lip Man 1
09-16-2011, 10:42 PM
I've never felt more sure about something in my life than this, if JR does nothing and both Ozzie and Kenny return, the fan backlash is going to be worse than the Sox fear in their worst nightmares.

Right or wrong, the fans want some accountability.

Lip

WhiteSoxOnly
09-16-2011, 10:49 PM
I've never felt more sure about something in my life than this, if JR does nothing and both Ozzie and Kenny return, the fan backlash is going to be worse than the Sox fear in their worst nightmares.

Right or wrong, the fans want some accountability.

Lip

Just think Lip if your scenario plays out AND they make little or no changes as far as the coaching staff and the roster.Try and wrap your arms around that.

Lip Man 1
09-16-2011, 10:50 PM
And Nighengale seems to be the only member of the mainstream media saying anything close to this that I know of.

Either he knows something no one else does or he's deliberately trying to be different so that if his long shot comes in he can say, "told you so..."

Lip

Tragg
09-16-2011, 10:53 PM
Nightengale's tweet really suggests he's gone.
Stay here with a 1 year deal or go to Fla for a multi-year deal.

A. Cavatica
09-16-2011, 10:57 PM
Nightengale's tweet really suggests he's gone.
Stay here with a 1 year deal or go to Fla for a multi-year deal.

Why would Florida offer him more than 1 year deal?

Does anyone really believe Ozzie is a hot commodity?

Tragg
09-16-2011, 11:01 PM
Why would Florida offer him more than 1 year deal?

Does anyone really believe Ozzie is a hot commodity?

Why would they offer him any deal?
But if they want him, yea, they'll offer him a multi-year I would think.

asindc
09-16-2011, 11:04 PM
Why would Florida offer him more than 1 year deal?

Does anyone really believe Ozzie is a hot commodity?

Because they don't see him they way we do. To that extent, he is a hotter commodity than someone who hasn't won a WS.

blandman
09-16-2011, 11:41 PM
I've never felt more sure about something in my life than this, if JR does nothing and both Ozzie and Kenny return, the fan backlash is going to be worse than the Sox fear in their worst nightmares.

Right or wrong, the fans want some accountability.

Lip

What are they going to do, not come? That's already happened.

We can't keep the coaches or the fans won't come. We can't rebuild or the fans won't come.

Jesus. Maybe this is exactly what we deserve.

russ99
09-16-2011, 11:55 PM
Why would Florida offer him more than 1 year deal?

Does anyone really believe Ozzie is a hot commodity?

Despite all the things you hate that he says, tweets or his kid spouts out, he's seen around the league as a good manager with a track record of success and a ring on his finger.

Does anyone really believe that he's not? Look around the league. If guys like Jim Riggleman can keep getting jobs, Ozzie will surely be in demand.

Miami is the prime target, since Ozzie has a house there and they're looking for a splash hire, but other teams would be interested if he hit the open market.

Nellie_Fox
09-17-2011, 12:00 AM
I've never felt more sure about something in my life than this, if JR does nothing and both Ozzie and Kenny return, the fan backlash is going to be worse than the Sox fear in their worst nightmares.

Right or wrong, the fans want some accountability.

LipI truly don't think that the average fan really cares about the stuff that gets hard-core WSIers foaming at the mouth. They don't come to watch Ozzie manage. Winning would cure everything. If they come out of the gate respectably, the fans will be there regardless of who's sitting on the bench in a hoodie.

WhiteSox5187
09-17-2011, 12:02 AM
What are they going to do, not come? That's already happened.

We can't keep the coaches or the fans won't come. We can't rebuild or the fans won't come.

Jesus. Maybe this is exactly what we deserve.

By my crude math the Sox are averaging about 25,000 fans right now (at least in tickets sold). That number might be a LOT lower next year if the team keeps playing like this and no one is held accountable. It's not out of the question that the Sox raise ticket prices again and then slash payroll in which case it is not totally out of the question that the Sox wind up drawing under 20,000 a night which would put them close to where the Rays are in terms of attendance.

captain54
09-17-2011, 12:39 AM
. It's not out of the question that the Sox raise ticket prices again and then slash payroll in which case it is not totally out of the question that the Sox wind up drawing under 20,000 a night which would put them close to where the Rays are in terms of attendance.

the White Sox right now are 20th out of 30 MLB teams in average home attendance. JR would be taking a huge gamble by having nothing change going into '12, by putting all of his chips into the notion that '11 was a fluke and the team will rebound. If it all backfires and the Sox again come out of the gate slow and stumble in April and May, I predict that attendance will fall below the 20,000 mark as well, placing them as one of the bottom three teams in MLB in average home attendance.

Boondock Saint
09-17-2011, 02:45 AM
I truly don't think that the average fan really cares about the stuff that gets hard-core WSIers foaming at the mouth. They don't come to watch Ozzie manage. Winning would cure everything. If they come out of the gate respectably, the fans will be there regardless of who's sitting on the bench in a hoodie.

That's certainly true, but on the other side of the coin, I don't think it's the average fan who's spending thousands of dollars a year on season tickets. If those people start dropping their plans, that's going to be a big hit to take.

JB98
09-17-2011, 02:50 AM
That's certainly true, but on the other side of the coin, I don't think it's the average fan who's spending thousands of dollars a year on season tickets. If those people start dropping their plans, that's going to be a big hit to take.

I'm considering dropping my plan if the GM, manager and coaching staff are all brought back.

I'm wishing for the season to be over, and that's something I never do. Baseball is my favorite sport by far. I'm usually sad when it ends. Not this year.

I would actually prefer a rebuilding project to another summer of Ozzieball and Walkerball.

kufram
09-17-2011, 07:22 AM
I actually wonder if "average" fans (whatever that means) can even afford to go to mlb games anymore. But I agree that most fans, for want of a better word, don't even know about half the stuff talked about at great length on WSI.

Winning games is always the answer to empty seats. I'm not saying I want it to happen but I would expect that if they brought back exactly the same team and management next year we would be better than this year because it would be pretty hard to be worse.

Ozzie will be popular with a lot of people wherever he is next year because of his character.... he's also likely to piss off a lot of people wherever he is next year because of his character. If it is Miami, I could see him being a REAL local hero.

I've seen other businesses run down like it appears that the CWS have been going for a while now but there was always a reason for it. It wasn't clear what the reason was at the time but it made some sense later. I'm not sure that applies here, but I do wonder.

dickallen15
09-17-2011, 07:29 AM
And Nighengale seems to be the only member of the mainstream media saying anything close to this that I know of.

Either he knows something no one else does or he's deliberately trying to be different so that if his long shot comes in he can say, "told you so..."

Lip
Yes, but coming back will be with at least one circumstance he said he won't return with and that is without an extension, and they aren't going to bring back Cora or Walker or Cox.

So Ozzie, here it is, no extension and your buddies won't be back, what do you think? If he says no, I quit, the Sox can get something from Miami to hire him, if this little stunt backfires and he says yes, the Sox will be scrambling, but Ozzie will have to live with the discrepancies with his earlier statements and reality.

dickallen15
09-17-2011, 07:32 AM
By my crude math the Sox are averaging about 25,000 fans right now (at least in tickets sold). That number might be a LOT lower next year if the team keeps playing like this and no one is held accountable. It's not out of the question that the Sox raise ticket prices again and then slash payroll in which case it is not totally out of the question that the Sox wind up drawing under 20,000 a night which would put them close to where the Rays are in terms of attendance.
After a season like this, they are losing some season ticket accounts regardless. Even if they start out hot next year, history suggests Sox fans are a little slow in reacting. An 84-88 win team in 2012 probably is another attendance decline, although it could mean 2013 will be a little higher.