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HawkDJ
07-14-2002, 12:40 PM
So it looks like the 2002 season is just about over. Could this be a realistic lineup for 2003?

LF: Borchard
CF: Rowand
RF: Ordonez
1B: Konerko
2B: Harris
3B: Crede
SS: Jiminez
C: Johnson

idseer
07-14-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
So it looks like the 2002 season is just about over. Could this be a realistic lineup for 2003?

LF: Borchard
CF: Rowand
RF: Ordonez
1B: Konerko
2B: Harris
3B: Crede
SS: Jiminez
C: Johnson

2 proven major leaguers, 5 rookies, and a johnson ... oh my!

Daver
07-14-2002, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
So it looks like the 2002 season is just about over. Could this be a realistic lineup for 2003?

LF: Borchard
CF: Rowand
RF: Ordonez
1B: Konerko
2B: Harris
3B: Crede
SS: Jiminez
C: Johnson

I don't think I would want a guy that will probably strike out 175 times leading off.......

idseer
07-14-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by daver


I don't think I would want a guy that will probably strike out 175 times leading off.......

i don't think he meant that as a batting order.

voodoochile
07-14-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
So it looks like the 2002 season is just about over. Could this be a realistic lineup for 2003?


I think Rowand will still be on the bench and Lee in LF with Borchard in CF unless they trade Lee, which I don't see happening unless they package him with Durham for a SP.

Never have understood the fascination with Rowand, but I understand why people like his hustle.

I see a lineup like this...

Harris 2B (though I wouldn't mind seeing Ray back)
Frank DH (why not, he takes walks and he would give Harris tons of protection)
Maggs RF
Konerko 1B
Borchard CF
Lee LF
Crede 3B
Johnson/(Olivio or Paul) C
Jimenez SS

Don't ask me what they do with Jose - I hope they trade him, but if push comes to shove, they can use him as a super sub, or if they trade Frank instead of Jose, they can use Jose as DH in the 2 slot. If nothing else he gives us lots of options if Jimenez, Crede or Harris falter and need to be sent down for a while.

Hope they come to their senses and try to get another solid SP and with Ray, Jose, Rowand, Frank, Wright (probably) and Ritchie (definitely) available, the Sox should be able to upgrade their pitching. Now the question is can KW make a trade that will help them and will anyone bite on Ritchie (I say yes, because he is a better pitcher than he has shown and his past success outways his current slump).

Jerry_Manuel
07-14-2002, 02:38 PM
I'll chime in with my thoughs.

LF: Borchard
CF: Harris
RF: Ordonez
3RD: Crede
SS: Jiminez
2B: Valentin or Hummel (I think they'll move Jose, but we'll see)
1B: PK
C: Johnson or Olivo

BuehrleACE56
07-14-2002, 03:17 PM
defense:
LF Borchard
CF Rowand
RF Maggs
3B Crede
SS Jiminez
2B Harris
1B Paulie
C Johnson/(Paul or Olivio)
DH Liefer?

batting order:
Harris
Crede
Maggs
Konerko
Borchard
Liefer
Johnson
Jiminez

bc2k
07-14-2002, 05:48 PM
Johnson/Paul/Olivo/free agency?
Konerko
Harris
Crede
Jimenez
Ordonez
Rowand
Borchard
DH: Valentin

Yes, I put Ordonez in left and Borchard in right.
As far as batting order I have no idea. Can Harris leadoff? I would like to see Borchard start off 2003 in the 7th spot and move up to fifth if he progresses. I believe Manuel did that with Lee, that is a smart move.

Huisj
07-14-2002, 08:26 PM
What if Lee's big weekend (and especially this afternoon) is his coming back party beginning, and he goes on to have the monster second half he seemed capable of having last year when he had a monster first half? What if he's really got it together? Do you still try to trade him and go with Rowand in center, or do you keep him and try Borchard in center and just hope that the ball is never hit in the gaps? tough decision, because if Lee gets it together, he could be a big producer, where as Rowand will probably just be average (or possibly worse, but of course play better defense).

then again, kenny williams will probably sign Lance Johnson over the off season to bring back that always valuable "veteran presence"

nut_stock
07-14-2002, 09:36 PM
You know, I remember when we debated whether or not we should hang on to Konerko or Lee as it was still up in the air as to who has the bigger upside. Trading Lee could be pretty dangerous...

Bucktown
07-14-2002, 09:41 PM
All of you that want to take Lee out of our line-up are high. Lee will be an All-star within three years. As for Borchard, he will never be a major league starter.

nut_stock
07-14-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
All of you that want to take Lee out of our line-up are high. Lee will be an All-star within three years. As for Borchard, he will never be a major league starter.

You can book it.


Interesting stance on Borchard, why do you say so??

Daver
07-14-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
All of you that want to take Lee out of our line-up are high. Lee will be an All-star within three years. As for Borchard, he will never be a major league starter.

You can book it.

The same was said of Jim Thome.............

Chisox_cali
07-14-2002, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
As for Borchard, he will never be a major league starter.

You can book it.

I don't think that the $5.3 million signing bonus JR gave him would agree.

Bucktown
07-14-2002, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by nut_stock



Interesting stance on Borchard, why do you say so??
For cripes sakes, Borchard is batting ,003 and 4 HRs less in AAA than Carlos is batting the bigs. Why does that seem like an upgrade to anyone?

nut_stock
07-14-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


I don't think that the $5.3 million signing bonus JR gave him would agree.


There really needs to be a limit on Draftee signing money.

Daver
07-14-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown

For cripes sakes, Borchard is batting ,003 and 4 HRs less in AAA than Carlos is batting the bigs. Why does that seem like an upgrade to anyone? \

Yeah,and he is still recovering from a foot injury and learning to hit pro pitching,what is Lee's excuse?

Chisox_cali
07-14-2002, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown

Borchard is batting ,003 and 4 HRs less in AAA ?

I didn't know that ,003 was a batting average. :D:

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown

For cripes sakes, Borchard is batting ,003 and 4 HRs less in AAA than Carlos is batting the bigs. Why does that seem like an upgrade to anyone?


*****!



:whoflungpoo

Bucktown
07-14-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by daver
\

Yeah,and he is still recovering from a foot injury and learning to hit pro pitching,what is Lee's excuse?
What does Lee need to have an excuse for? Hitting 2 home runs today? Making 1 error this season? Hitting .326 and 9 home runs over the last 30 days?

Borchard isn't exactly Mr. Consistency. Last year was 2nd in the AA ball in strikeouts (158), granted he hit .295, but that is still AA ball.

Carlos hit .301 in 2000 and .293 in 1999. He was off last year ending up with .269 average, but I believe you don't cast out a guy that hit over .300 year before last and demonstrated over the last 30 days that that was not a fluke.

I still remeber the HR Carlos hit in his first big league at bat. That is probably the main reason I believe that he is the real deal.

Daver
07-14-2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown

What does Lee need to have an excuse for? Hitting 2 home runs today? Making 1 error this season? Hitting .326 and 9 home runs over the last 30 days?

Borchard isn't exactly Mr. Consistency. Last year was 2nd in the AA ball in strikeouts (158), granted he hit .295, but that is still AA ball.

Carlos hit .301 in 2000 and .293 in 1999. He was off last year ending up with .269 average, but I believe you don't cast out a guy that hit over .300 year before last and demonstrated over the last 30 days that that was not a fluke.

I still remeber the HR Carlos hit in his first big league at bat. That is probably the main reason I believe that he is the real deal.

I never said to cast him out,I said to trade him while his value is at it's peak,unless Frank is moved he has no room with this team down the road.

bc2k
07-14-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
What if Lee's big weekend (and especially this afternoon) is his coming back party beginning, and he goes on to have the monster second half he seemed capable of having last year when he had a monster first half? What if he's really got it together? Do you still try to trade him and go with Rowand in center, or do you keep him and try Borchard in center and just hope that the ball is never hit in the gaps? tough decision, because if Lee gets it together, he could be a big producer, where as Rowand will probably just be average (or possibly worse, but of course play better defense).

then again, kenny williams will probably sign Lance Johnson over the off season to bring back that always valuable "veteran presence"

Great question Huisj. And an even better answer. If Lee has a monster second half, then I would keep him as my left fielder with Borchard in center and Ordonez in right. And I would make Rowand an everyday centerfielder in AAA. He's too young to be stapled a fourth outfielder. He's too young to rot on the bench.

I agree that Rowand is a better fielder but I don't think Carlos is a liability in left anymore. I'm always suprised to see guys on WSI rip on him for this years fielding. I guess once a player gains a reputation, the tag sticks. So to finish my answer, I am comfortable with Carlos in left, Borchard in center, and Maggs. I'm more worried about Lee's baserunning than his fielding.

Besides, I have this feeling that Carlos can be a consistent 60+ home run guy in a few years. I'd be too scared to risk losing that.

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by daver


I never said to cast him out,I said to trade him while his value is at it's peak,unless Frank is moved he has no room with this team down the road.

It likely doesn't matter. Tonight's Charlotte lineup may be what they have in mand no matter what we think. Personally, I have been a Carlos backer since before he came to the majors, and think he will be a REALLY good hitter.

Tonight's Charlotte lineup:
Harris: CF
LTP: RF
Crede: 3B
Hummel: 2B
Jimenez: SS

Humml at SS appears to be over for now, although I'm far from sold on Jimenez as an MLB hitter over Hummel and his fld% at SS is terrible.

Harris appears in line to get significant time at CF.


Lee has been a pretty reliable LF'er this year. He's taken away 1 more HR from the opposition than Lofton and has not made many mistakes. His footwork is not the best, but as we've seen, he's capable of improvement. At the plate, now that he is taking the ball to right again, he is a very dangerous hitter. You cannot try to pull every outside pitch and think you are going to hit it that often.

Daver
07-14-2002, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by bc2k


Great question Huisj. And an even better answer. If Lee has a monster second half, then I would keep him as my left fielder with Borchard in center and Ordonez in right. And I would make Rowand an everyday centerfielder in AAA. He's too young to be stapled a fourth outfielder. He's too young to rot on the bench.

I agree that Rowand is a better fielder but I don't think Carlos is a liability in left anymore. I'm always suprised to see guys on WSI rip on him for this years fielding. I guess once a player gains a reputation, the tag sticks. So to finish my answer, I am comfortable with Carlos in left, Borchard in center, and Maggs. I'm more worried about Lee's baserunning than his fielding.

Besides, I have this feeling that Carlos can be a consistent 60+ home run guy in a few years. I'd be too scared to risk losing that.

Borchard in center and Carlos in left is a pitchers nightmare,0 range in LF backed up with limited range in center,though I'm sure the rest of the AL Central would love to see that happen

Daver
07-14-2002, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


It likely doesn't matter. Tonight's Charlotte lineup may be what they have in mand no matter what we think. Personally, I have been a Carlos backer since before he came to the majors, and think he will be a REALLY good hitter.

Tonight's Charlotte lineup:
Harris: CF
LTP: RF
Crede: 3B
Hummel: 2B
Jimenez: SS



Do you really think Harris can play center?

I have my doubts.

Borchard in RF is a good call though.

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by bc2k

Besides, I have this feeling that Carlos can be a consistent 60+ home run guy in a few years. I'd be too scared to risk losing that.

Well, at the same age, I think he is a MUCH better hitter than Sammy ever was. He is already more patient and uses the whole field (when he is on) than Sosa ever did until the last couple years. However, he's already a big guy, and his swing isn't taylored to measuring stick HR's. I DO think he can be a .300+,35,120 hitter, and even for a DH in the AL, that's pretty solid. However, I don't think he'll ever approach the .400 OBP guys like Frank, Giambi, etc. IMO, that is as/more important as the HR's.

Also, when Carlos has been on, he has been as clutch as any player I can remember.

Bucktown
07-14-2002, 10:44 PM
I would agree with the Lee-Borchard-Ordonez line-up (assuming I am wrong about Borchard, which seem likely since I am in the minority). I hope Borchard fixes his strikeout problem.

I also agree that Lee is no longer a major liability in left. His fielding is average, although his arm is not good. Hopefully he can improve in that area two. It seems to be mostly a matter of mechanics.

I would argue there are greater liabilites (Sandy's inability to tag out a runner, Durham's running, Frank's attitude).

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by daver


Borchard in center and Carlos in left is a pitchers nightmare,0 range in LF backed up with limited range in center,though I'm sure the rest of the AL Central would love to see that happen

Personally, I don't think Joe has any worse range than Berkman, and look at that OF.

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I would agree with the Lee-Borchard-Ordonez line-up (assuming I am wrong about Borchard, which seem likely since I am in the minority). I hope Borchard fixes his strikeout problem.


Do you care if a guy strikes out if he still takes a lot of walks? I don't.

Daver
07-14-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I would agree with the Lee-Borchard-Ordonez line-up (assuming I am wrong about Borchard, which seem likely since I am in the minority). I hope Borchard fixes his strikeout problem.

I also agree that Lee is no longer a major liability in left. His fielding is average, although his arm is not good. Hopefully he can improve in that area two. It seems to be mostly a matter of mechanics.

I would argue there are greater liabilites (Sandy's inability to tag out a runner, Durham's running, Frank's attitude).

Borchard will always be a high K guy,that comes with his agressiveness at the plate,but he will play in the bigs at a high level,Light Tower Power,from both sides of the plate.

Ray and Sandy will both most likely be gone next year.

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by daver


Do you really think Harris can play center?

I have my doubts.

Borchard in RF is a good call though.

I think he can play there, but I would like to see him play a full season there. One of the hardest parts of playing CF is reading the ball hit straght at you, and that will only come with PT. While he isn't a Lofton-type basestealer, he has well above-average speed.

Can he play CF? I hope so. Who would I rather see at 2B? Harris is solid there, but I would prefer Hummel. He has much more potential as a hitter and is someone I see as a ptoential .300 hitter with an OBP in the .380 range, something I think Harris is not capable of.

Daver
07-14-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


I think he can play there, but I would like to see him play a full season there. One of the hardest parts of playing CF is reading the ball hit straght at you, and that will only come with PT. While he isn't a Lofton-type basestealer, he has well above-average speed.

Can he play CF? I hope so. Who would I rather see at 2B? Harris is solid there, but I would prefer Hummel. He has much more potential as a hitter and is someone I see as a ptoential .300 hitter with an OBP in the .380 range, something I think Harris is not capable of.

I don't think he has enough of an arm to play center,bouncing it to the cutoff man is unacceptable.

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
I also agree that Lee is no longer a major liability in left. His fielding is average, although his arm is not good. Hopefully he can improve in that area two. It seems to be mostly a matter of mechanics.



IMO, Carlos has a good arm. However, he doesn't get his feet into good position to make a strong/accurate throw. Consequently, he often ends op lolipopping it from his back foot.

His throws to 2nd are almost always strong and on the money. Mentally, he doesn't seem to be able to set himself up properly to throw home and ends up in poor throwing position.

Just my opinion

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by daver


I don't think he has enough of an arm to play center,bouncing it to the cutoff man is unacceptable.

Have you seen Lofton play center the past 5 years?

Seriously though, arm is overrated for a CF'er. The best arm we've had in CF the past 10 years was Singleton, and the next closest was not even a contest.

Daver
07-14-2002, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Have you seen Lofton play center the past 5 years?

Seriously though, arm is overrated for a CF'er. The best arm we've had in CF the past 10 years was Singleton, and the next closest was not even a contest.

Lofton is not good,he reminds me of Lance Johnson,as does Harris.

Randar68
07-14-2002, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by daver


Lofton is not good,he reminds me of Lance Johnson,as does Harris.

Well, if Harris catches the ball and gets on base 38% of the time, he can play CF on my team.

TheBigHurt
07-14-2002, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
So it looks like the 2002 season is just about over. Could this be a realistic lineup for 2003?

LF: Borchard
CF: Rowand
RF: Ordonez
1B: Konerko
2B: Harris
3B: Crede
SS: Jiminez
C: Johnson

cant do much worse then the lineup now!! :smile:

THE_HOOTER
07-15-2002, 09:18 AM
No matter what people say, the combo of lineups I see will have us losing approx 90 games next year.

Don't laugh because this year I predicted 78 wins-right on track.

Durham
Valentin
Ordonez
Konerko
Lee
Thomas
Crede
Rowand/Harris
Johnson/Paul

Pithing: ????????????

Too hard to predict-- Buehrle, Garland, Ritchie, Rauch???

Randar68
07-15-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
No matter what people say, the combo of lineups I see will have us losing approx 90 games next year.

Don't laugh because this year I predicted 78 wins-right on track.

Durham
Valentin
Ordonez
Konerko
Lee
Thomas
Crede
Rowand/Harris
Johnson/Paul

Pithing: ????????????

Too hard to predict-- Buehrle, Garland, Ritchie, Rauch???

If Durham is on this team tomorrow with Hummel, Harris and Jimenez waiting, you can Spank my ass and call me Charlie!

whitesoxwilkes
07-15-2002, 09:44 AM
Think we'll keep Graffanino, the greatest super sub since Al Weis, around?

THE_HOOTER
07-15-2002, 09:45 AM
How are Durham's stats compared to the other guys?

Face it, if Durham is gone, rebuilding is what should happen.

I know he has a ton of errors year and year, but the fact is he has been the catalyst for this offense for 4-5 years?

I know he has led the team in runs scored several years running.

That is not something you just replace with a rookie who has NO experience.

Nobody wanted Kip Wells either, and look what happened.

Aside from Alomar, Soriano, Vidro, Durham is among the best at his position.

I dont think it would be smart to have Crede and another rookie next year.

However, if Graffy were signed i would be comformtable replacing Durham with him because Graffy is proving himself worthy of 500 at bats.

Daver
07-15-2002, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER


However, if Graffy were signed i would be comformtable replacing Durham with him because Graffy is proving himself worthy of 500 at bats.

Tony G is under contract for next year.

Jerry_Manuel
07-15-2002, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
Face it, if Durham is gone, rebuilding is what should happen.

That is not something you just replace with a rookie who has NO experience.


That's what their going to do, the kids are back.

You'll see at least 3 rookies on the team next year.

hold2dibber
07-15-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
How are Durham's stats compared to the other guys?

Face it, if Durham is gone, rebuilding is what should happen.

I know he has a ton of errors year and year, but the fact is he has been the catalyst for this offense for 4-5 years?

I know he has led the team in runs scored several years running.

That is not something you just replace with a rookie who has NO experience.

Nobody wanted Kip Wells either, and look what happened.

Aside from Alomar, Soriano, Vidro, Durham is among the best at his position.

I dont think it would be smart to have Crede and another rookie next year.

However, if Graffy were signed i would be comformtable replacing Durham with him because Graffy is proving himself worthy of 500 at bats.

I agree that the Sox do not have anyone coming up who will be able to replace Durham's numbers offensively. But that doesn't mean they should keep him - if we can get someone at 2B who can actually field the position, can get on base a decent amount of the time (maybe a .350 OBP), can take a walk, and can bunt, we'll be okay. Hummel seems like the best candidate from my limited knowledge. Hopefully the Sox will use the money they save to sign or trade for a center fielder (Erstad?) or a starting pitcher that can make a difference. Plus, with Crede instead of Clayton (assuming Manos moves over to SS) in the lineup, some of the offensive drop off at 2B will be made up elsewhere. The Sox clearly are not going to keep Durham.

TheBigHurt
07-15-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Johnson/Paul/Olivo/free agency?

i would say Paul will be next years starting catcher

Soxheads
07-15-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt

i would say Paul will be next years starting catcher

Nooooooooo!

All of these FOV's! Someone tell me what's wrong with MJ.

guillen4life13
07-15-2002, 10:48 PM
m.j. has had a bit of experience (he was a catcher back in 1999 i think on this team), and he still hasn't shown that he can hit major league pitching with consistency. Josh Paul, with the limited amount of time we've seen him play, has shown that he can hit ml pitching better than mj. on top of that, he is faster. i personally think that mj can drop down a better bunt and will take walks much more easily than josh paul (and thats what you need out of a hitter in the 8-9 spot), but realistically, paul is going 2 get the starting job.

Randar68
07-15-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
but realistically, paul is going 2 get the starting job.

Only in the fairy land where defense and game calling abilities are not a part of catcher's job.

Jerry_Manuel
07-15-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Only in the fairy land where defense and game calling abilities are not a part of catcher's job.

Randar, one of these days all this Versatile and Rowand talk is going to make you want to eat your brain. I don't know how you do this without snapping on someone.

Soxheads
07-16-2002, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Randar, one of these days all this Versatile and Rowand talk is going to make you want to eat your brain. I don't know how you do this without snapping on someone.

Jer, I am usually a pretty calm guy, but if Versatile gets the starting nod next year, I'm turning in my handle. Write it down. You know I don't want to give up all those posts and shouts, but there is no way Mr. Paul should ever have the starting job on any team til he can call a freaking baseball game. I'm getting ready to snap.

:jerry
"What should we call you next year?"

:versatile
"Cool, I piss heads off."

Randar68
07-16-2002, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Randar, one of these days all this Versatile and Rowand talk is going to make you want to eat your brain. I don't know how you do this without snapping on someone.

People who have never played catcher or pitched past the age of about 14 have no clue. I try to eplain the importance, but it's in one ear out the other with some people here, all that matters is OBP, HR's, SB's, etc.

Daver
07-16-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


People who have never played catcher or pitched past the age of about 14 have no clue. I try to eplain the importance, but it's in one ear out the other with some people here, all that matters is OBP, HR's, SB's, etc.

What? You mean you are supposed to know the hitting tendencies of the opposing hitters and be able to pitch call around them?I am shocked I tell you Shocked!! And you are expected to be able to throw a ball to second base accurately? I didn't even know there was a stat for that.