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Lip Man 1
09-11-2011, 10:31 PM
Maybe it's just me but Ozzie has been doing a lot of talking the past few weeks and it seems to me he's throwing a lot of guys under the bus. Now he may be 100% correct in doing so but it just seems to me unseemly right now.

Anyway in this story he says he didn't make the decision on shutting down Peavy for the rest of this year and that he thinks Jake will never be the same.

As far as what happens to him personally, it sounds like if a decision is made it's going to happen quickly or not at all. He's headed to Europe on a long vacation two days after the season ends:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0912-white-sox-indians-chicago--20110912,0,3344156.story

Lip

ilsox7
09-11-2011, 10:53 PM
Just from reading various articles over the last week or so (and not actually seeing Ozzie talk), it seems to me that he is on his way out and knows it.

Brian26
09-11-2011, 10:56 PM
Anyway in this story he says he didn't make the decision on shutting down Peavy for the rest of this year and that he thinks Jake will never be the same.

Seriously, he's going to burn every bridge possible on his way out of town. What benefit could be gained by saying this?

Noneck
09-11-2011, 11:12 PM
I think that ozwaldo will be forced to make his move first. He will be told that no extension will be given and that his future will be in the hands of the GM. What he does from there will be interesting. He may very well find out that being a hot commodity is both his and the medias illusion. That may be a turning point in his career, which way he turns? We will see.

dickallen15
09-11-2011, 11:31 PM
He certainly managed this year like he had some other place to go a couple of days after the regular season ended.

Goose
09-12-2011, 11:39 AM
He certainly managed this year like he had some other place to go a couple of days after the regular season ended.

I wonder when he booked his tickets.

Oz, from someone who used to be your biggest backer, you have shown me what a piece of garbage you are. Terrible manager, even worse human being.

I agree with the poster who said that he will burn as many bridges on his way out as possible. That is a sign of a insecure person who needs to point fingers at others in an attempt to diminish his responsibility in what when wrong. My prediction is that he will have a lot nasty words said on his way to Miami.

JB98
09-12-2011, 12:22 PM
I wonder when he booked his tickets.

Oz, from someone who used to be your biggest backer, you have shown me what a piece of garbage you are. Terrible manager, even worse human being.

I agree with the poster who said that he will burn as many bridges on his way out as possible. That is a sign of a insecure person who needs to point fingers at others in an attempt to diminish his responsibility in what when wrong. My prediction is that he will have a lot nasty words said on his way to Miami.

Yeah, this whole thing is headed toward an ugly divorce. It's a shame. This season started with such optimism and hope. Now, this organization is a complete mess and in need of major change.

amsteel
09-12-2011, 12:30 PM
What benefit could be gained by saying this?

Credibility, by means of stating a fact.

Nellie_Fox
09-12-2011, 01:16 PM
Credibility, by means of stating a fact.Ozzie's take on the long-term prognosis of Peavy is now a "fact?" Allow me to restate that no baseball player, much less a pitcher, has ever had the surgery that Jake had. Therefore, no one knows the prognosis for a "fact," not even the surgeon, much less Ozzie.

Goose
09-12-2011, 01:29 PM
Credibility, by means of stating a fact.

What does this even mean? How will Ozzie be given credibility by saying JP will never be the same?

Ozzie apologists have jumped the shark.

russ99
09-12-2011, 01:31 PM
Credibility, by means of stating a fact.

Also, if Jerry decides brings him back (and he is the one who will decide that) he's setting others up in the shakeup to come in the offseason.

BTW - none of the coaches have contracts for next year, Ozzie does. And Jerry hates to eat contracts.

russ99
09-12-2011, 01:36 PM
What does this even mean? How will Ozzie be given credibility by saying JP will never be the same?

Ozzie apologists have jumped the shark.

Sorry, it's the opposite. Ozzie's stating the obvious, Peavy may not ever be the same pitcher again.

And it's all the Ozzie haters who can't hear anything he says without assuming there's an ulterior motive or he's just being an ass out of spite.

Goose
09-12-2011, 01:43 PM
Sorry, it's the opposite. Ozzie's stating the obvious, Peavy may not ever be the same pitcher again.

And it's all the Ozzie haters who can't hear anything he says without assuming there's an ulterior motive or he's just being an ass out of spite.

No. Ozzie's just being an ass. Why would he say that about Jake? What kind of coach would say something like that about one of his players? Do you suppose that would motivate Peavy? Do you think Ozzie is using reverse psychology to get Jake to "work harder"?

Look, man - the sooner you realize that Ozzie is out to only make Kenny look bad, even if it costs the team a win (leaving Dunn in to hit in the 9th yesterday), the sooner you will have the blinders lifted.

Nellie_Fox
09-12-2011, 01:44 PM
Sorry, it's the opposite. Ozzie's stating the obvious, Peavy may not ever be the same pitcher again. There's a difference between "may not" and "don't think he will be."

blandman
09-12-2011, 01:49 PM
There's a difference between "may not" and "don't think he will be."

I don't have a problem with what Ozzie said, and neither should Peavy. He is stating the obvious, that Peavy's stuff is not the same and we shouldn't go into next year expecting it to be.

kufram
09-12-2011, 01:54 PM
I think some people still don't get that Ozzie doesn't put a lot of thought into things before he says them. He doesn't have all the secret meanings and signals that other people read into his comments. One could argue that maybe he should, but he doesn't. That is what I think, anyway.

That is why he's great with the media and for the media. I think he says whatever comes into his mind when he's asked a question. Not everybody is going to like it but everybody's going to have an opinion about it.

He won't struggle to find a job. It might not be in managing but I won't be surprised if it is and I won't be very surprised if it is with the White Sox.

Rocky Soprano
09-12-2011, 01:57 PM
Sorry, it's the opposite. Ozzie's stating the obvious, Peavy may not ever be the same pitcher again.

And it's all the Ozzie haters who can't hear anything he says without assuming there's an ulterior motive or he's just being an ass out of spite.

I don't have a problem with what Ozzie said, and neither should Peavy. He is stating the obvious, that Peavy's stuff is not the same and we shouldn't go into next year expecting it to be.

Why am I not surprised?
Ozzie could take a **** on the Sox organization and you both would defend him and blame the Sox organization and/or fans for not providing Ozzie with a gold toilet to sit on.

Jerko
09-12-2011, 02:01 PM
Would the Sox really bring Ozzie back and "assign" him new coaches that are "non-Ozzie" guys? Or will he get to choose his own staff? He's already stated he wants another shot with the same guys. This could get interesting.

doublem23
09-12-2011, 02:01 PM
I don't have a problem with what Ozzie said, and neither should Peavy. He is stating the obvious, that Peavy's stuff is not the same and we shouldn't go into next year expecting it to be.

There's such a thing as an "inside voice." What, please tell me, does Ozzie expect to gain by essentially telling everyone that he thinks Peavy is washed up? Considering Jake has hurt himself a few times this year by pushing his rehab too hard, that's probably the last thing he needed his manager to state publically.

I'm sure Ozzie doesn't care, Jake's not his problem in Miami next year.

blandman
09-12-2011, 02:31 PM
There's such a thing as an "inside voice." What, please tell me, does Ozzie expect to gain by essentially telling everyone that he thinks Peavy is washed up? Considering Jake has hurt himself a few times this year by pushing his rehab too hard, that's probably the last thing he needed his manager to state publically.

I'm sure Ozzie doesn't care, Jake's not his problem in Miami next year.

Ozzie isn't going anywhere.

And while the sentiment here might be Ozzie's attacking Jake, Jake might have a different take entirely. There have been a lot of expectations on Jake since he got here that he hasn't lived up to, and now he's being shut down. Instead of the failure of Peavy, people are keying in on Ozzie. Kudos, Ozzie. You've done it again.

doublem23
09-12-2011, 02:36 PM
Ozzie isn't going anywhere.

And while the sentiment here might be Ozzie's attacking Jake, Jake might have a different take entirely. There have been a lot of expectations on Jake since he got here that he hasn't lived up to, and now he's being shut down. Instead of the failure of Peavy, people are keying in on Ozzie. Kudos, Ozzie. You've done it again.

Please, the focus is entirely on Jake. I would suspect by this point, nobody takes Ozzie seriously, he's got as much credibility as a rodeo clown. The focus on the conversation now is why Jake has earned or not earned his tongue lashing from his boob of a manager. Kudos Ozzie, you've managed to throw another one of your players under the bus. Brilliant.

kufram
09-12-2011, 02:36 PM
Ozzie didn't say Peavy was washed up. He said "I don't think (Peavy) ever will be what he was". It's not the same thing.

But I don't think Ozzie took time to consider what other people would make out of what he said... he just said it. Tomorrow he might say something else... it's just what he was thinking at the time. It's probably not a big deal to anyone on the team.

central44
09-12-2011, 02:48 PM
Ozzie didn't say Peavy was washed up. He said "I don't think (Peavy) ever will be what he was". It's not the same thing.

But I don't think Ozzie took time to consider what other people would make out of what he said... he just said it. Tomorrow he might say something else... it's just what he was thinking at the time. It's probably not a big deal to anyone on the team.


I agree. I think it was just a stupid comment that he made without thinking. Part of me wants to believe that he was trying to motivate Peavy...but i'd be pretty surprised by that.

There's never a good reason to basically tell the press that you don't have confidence in a player, IMHO.

Ozzie isn't going anywhere.

Maybe he is, maybe not. Nobody knows that except Jerry Reinsdorf.

Rocky Soprano
09-12-2011, 02:51 PM
Ozzie isn't going anywhere.


Want to bet?

If Ozzie is still here you get to give me a pro-Ozzie signature that I vow to keep all of next year. But if he is gone, I give you an anti-Ozzie signature you keep all of next year.

You game?

tstrike2000
09-12-2011, 02:52 PM
Ozzie isn't going anywhere.

And while the sentiment here might be Ozzie's attacking Jake, Jake might have a different take entirely. There have been a lot of expectations on Jake since he got here that he hasn't lived up to, and now he's being shut down. Instead of the failure of Peavy, people are keying in on Ozzie. Kudos, Ozzie. You've done it again.

I heard they are really missing a blandman on the Marlin's message board.

blandman
09-12-2011, 02:59 PM
Please, the focus is entirely on Jake. I would suspect by this point, nobody takes Ozzie seriously, he's got as much credibility as a rodeo clown. The focus on the conversation now is why Jake has earned or not earned his tongue lashing from his boob of a manager. Kudos Ozzie, you've managed to throw another one of your players under the bus. Brilliant.

The only mention of Jake I'm seeing here is how people feel bad that his manager is talking down about him. :shrug:

blandman
09-12-2011, 03:01 PM
Want to bet?

If Ozzie is still here you get to give me a pro-Ozzie signature that I vow to keep all of next year. But if he is gone, I give you an anti-Ozzie signature you keep all of next year.

You game?

Sounds good!

I'm not a huge fan of Ozzie, but I don't blame him either. And I certainly don't see anyone better out there we're realistically going to pick up to replace him.

voodoochile
09-12-2011, 03:07 PM
I wonder when he booked his tickets.

Oz, from someone who used to be your biggest backer, you have shown me what a piece of garbage you are. Terrible manager, even worse human being.

I agree with the poster who said that he will burn as many bridges on his way out as possible. That is a sign of a insecure person who needs to point fingers at others in an attempt to diminish his responsibility in what when wrong. My prediction is that he will have a lot nasty words said on his way to Miami.


Ozzie apologists have jumped the shark.

Pot meet kettle...

Jerko
09-12-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm sick of Ozzie saying controversial things (whether he intends them to be controversial or not) to take the spotlight off the players. They're not 5, and it really doesn't address the problem. If the guy sucks, and everyone is bitching about Ozzie over something he says, the guy still sucks. A little more baseball and a little less psychiatry next year please.

Nellie_Fox
09-12-2011, 03:42 PM
...nobody takes Ozzie seriously, he's got as much credibility as a rodeo clown. REALLY bad example. Talk to rodeo people, particularly bull riders, about how much credibility and respect they have. It's the toughest and most dangerous job in rodeo.

blandman
09-12-2011, 03:58 PM
I'm sick of Ozzie saying controversial things (whether he intends them to be controversial or not) to take the spotlight off the players. They're not 5, and it really doesn't address the problem. If the guy sucks, and everyone is bitching about Ozzie over something he says, the guy still sucks. A little more baseball and a little less psychiatry next year please.

Well, that's your opinion. I believe a large portion of the game to be mental, and a manager that understands that as well as the effect of the media (ESPECIALLY this media) is paramount.

Goose
09-12-2011, 04:20 PM
Pot meet kettle...

Please.

Look at the larger picture, not just this Peavy situation in a vacuum. In my opinion, anyone who is in a position of a manager (I am not just talking about baseball here, or athletics, for that matter), and they throw people under the bus like Ozzie does is a piece of garbage. From my perspective (especially this year), Ozzie has taken on a vendetta to prove a point. He says one thing and does (and says) the complete opposite from one day to the next. Dunn is a perfect example: A few games ago, he leaves Dunn in to bat in the 9th because he liked the L-R match-up. That was his excuse for not pinch hitting for him. A couple of games later, he leaves Dunn in to hit against a lefty because he needs to earn his keep. What is that? Which is it? Does he need to earn his keep or do you like L-R match-ups? Are you trying to embarrass the player? Are you trying to embarrass the GM? Trying to make a point about not needing a “big bat”? I don’t know what he is doing anymore.

Ozzie has said many times, that the media can blame him for the team not playing well. He would take responsibility. Now he says “Blame Dunn, don’t blame me!”. Even if Dunn needs to be embarrassed, why come out to the media and say it? What does that do? He wants to take the heat off of himself and blame others. That to me is gutless, and I consider it to be a major character flaw, thus my comment “worse human being”.

Listen, Ozzie was given an out by his GM to not play the bad players a while ago – Kenny said that he does not care about how much a player makes, that should not be the in manager’s decision making process as to whether to play a player. All Ozzie had to do from that point on is to determine which player would give him the best option to win. Obviously Dunn is not that player this year, yet Ozzie comes out and says he can’t sit a guy because he makes X amount a year, he has to earn it. What do you think that is? It is a big **** You to Kenny, Jerry and especially the fans who come out to see a winner. Again, my opinion because I have not proof otherwise, but I think that what Ozzie is doing is vindictive and is going about his tactics with blatant disregard of the rest of the players in the locker room, the organization he represents and the fans that pay good money to see this team.

If you think that my words is jumping the shark, so be it. I disagree. In fact, I am willing to bet that you cannot find any comments from me before this season criticizing Ozzie.

asindc
09-12-2011, 04:23 PM
Please.

Look at the larger picture, not just this Peavy situation in a vacuum. In my opinion, anyone who is in a position of a manager (I am not just talking about baseball here, or athletics, for that matter), and they throw people under the bus like Ozzie does is a piece of garbage. From my perspective (especially this year), Ozzie has taken on a vendetta to prove a point. He says one thing and does (and says) the complete opposite from one day to the next. Dunn is a perfect example: A few games ago, he leaves Dunn in to bat in the 9th because he liked the L-R match-up. That was his excuse for not pinch hitting for him. A couple of games later, he leaves Dunn in to hit against a lefty because he needs to earn his keep. What is that? Which is it? Does he need to earn his keep or do you like L-R match-ups? Are you trying to embarrass the player? Are you trying to embarrass the GM? Trying to make a point about not needing a “big bat”? I don’t know what he is doing anymore.

Ozzie has said many times, that the media can blame him for the team not playing well. He would take responsibility. Now he says “Blame Dunn, don’t blame me!”. Even if Dunn needs to be embarrassed, why come out to the media and say it? What does that do? He wants to take the heat off of himself and blame others. That to me is gutless, and I consider it to be a major character flaw, thus my comment “worse human being”.

Listen, Ozzie was given an out by his GM to not play the bad players a while ago – Kenny said that he does not care about how much a player makes, that should not be the in manager’s decision making process as to whether to play a player. All Ozzie had to do from that point on is to determine which player would give him the best option to win. Obviously Dunn is not that player this year, yet Ozzie comes out and says he can’t sit a guy because he makes X amount a year, he has to earn it. What do you think that is? It is a big **** You to Kenny, Jerry and especially the fans who come out to see a winner. Again, my opinion because I have not proof otherwise, but I think that what Ozzie is doing is vindictive and is going about his tactics with blatant disregard of the rest of the players in the locker room, the organization he represents and the fans that pay good money to see this team.

If you think that my words is jumping the shark, so be it. I disagree. In fact, I am willing to bet that you cannot find any comments from me before this season criticizing Ozzie.

You are not seriously pushing the argument that someone is a "piece of garbage" because you don't like the way he manages a baseball team, are you?

Nellie_Fox
09-12-2011, 04:25 PM
You are not seriously pushing the argument that someone is a "piece of garbage" because you don't like the way he manages a baseball team, are you?Hey, at least he isn't "hot garbage." I think that's worse. I'm not sure though.

Goose
09-12-2011, 04:38 PM
You are not seriously pushing the argument that someone is a "piece of garbage" because you don't like the way he manages a baseball team, are you?

Nope.

In my opinion, anyone who is in a position of a manager (I am not just talking about baseball here, or athletics, for that matter), and they throw people under the bus like Ozzie does is a piece of garbage.

...Ozzie has said many times, that the media can blame him for the team not playing well. He would take responsibility. Now he says “Blame Dunn, don’t blame me!”. Even if Dunn needs to be embarrassed, why come out to the media and say it? What does that do? He wants to take the heat off of himself and blame others. That to me is gutless, and I consider it to be a major character flaw...

Again, my opinion because I have not proof otherwise, but I think that what Ozzie is doing is vindictive and is going about his tactics with blatant disregard of the rest of the players in the locker room, the organization he represents and the fans that pay good money to see this team.

I did not like how Bevington managed the team either, but I never said anything about him as a person. He just stunk at managing. I think Ozzie can be a good manager, but he has a vindictive character. To me, anyone with that character flaw is a piece of garbage, whether they manage the White Sox or not.

kufram
09-12-2011, 04:48 PM
We are talking about Ozzie Guillen the baseball manager here, aren't we? He's not a governor or an elected official of any kind is he? His pronouncements in interviews and general statements off the cuff to beat reporters are not made under oath and have no meaning of any importance whatsoever. He's a baseball manager. He says things. He comments. So what.

I like the trying to motivate Peavy angle thought... in September... after he's been shut down. Yeah.

voodoochile
09-12-2011, 04:51 PM
Hey, at least he isn't "hot garbage." I think that's worse. I'm not sure though.

It tends to stink more...

And yes my reply was because of the over the top hyperbole used. Any time you call someone a piece of garbage you are pushing the envelope on the way up the shark jumping ramp, unless they beat their kid to death or something...

SI1020
09-12-2011, 06:37 PM
I agree with you Goose in that I think Ozzie can be a very vindictive person. He is thin skinned and when challenged he gets acerbic and bitter. He has not handled adversity well since the Sox won the WS. He's a front runner from the word go. The loathing he has for his GM is so obvious now that only the most dense can't see it. If I read or hear one more time about how Ozzie says dumb things to take the heat off of his players I might just punch a hole in the nearest wall.

slavko
09-12-2011, 06:58 PM
We are talking about Ozzie Guillen the baseball manager here, aren't we? He's not a governor or an elected official of any kind is he? His pronouncements in interviews and general statements off the cuff to beat reporters are not made under oath and have no meaning of any importance whatsoever. He's a baseball manager. He says things. He comments. So what.

I like the trying to motivate Peavy angle thought... in September... after he's been shut down. Yeah.

A voice of reason. But fans tend to get more worked up about things like Ozzie's statements than they do about real life-and-death issues. That's why fan sites exist, I guess. You're closer to the truth than most of us.

Can Ozzie be a vindictive person if he never retaliates when his players get hit?

russ99
09-12-2011, 07:14 PM
Please.
Listen, Ozzie was given an out by his GM to not play the bad players a while ago – Kenny said that he does not care about how much a player makes, that should not be the in manager’s decision making process as to whether to play a player. All Ozzie had to do from that point on is to determine which player would give him the best option to win. Obviously Dunn is not that player this year, yet Ozzie comes out and says he can’t sit a guy because he makes X amount a year, he has to earn it. What do you think that is? It is a big **** You to Kenny, Jerry and especially the fans who come out to see a winner. Again, my opinion because I have not proof otherwise, but I think that what Ozzie is doing is vindictive and is going about his tactics with blatant disregard of the rest of the players in the locker room, the organization he represents and the fans that pay good money to see this team.

If you think that my words is jumping the shark, so be it. I disagree. In fact, I am willing to bet that you cannot find any comments from me before this season criticizing Ozzie.

Ozzie was given that "out" in the press. If you really believe everything that Ozzie and especially Kenny says in the press, then I've got a bridge to sell you.

Dunn and Rios are playing, and yet Ozzie still lays into them. Does it even occur to you that Dunn and Rios could be playing due to orders from upstairs? They are playing less due to their performance, but that's not enough for some fans.

BTW - Ozzie's quote on Quentin today sure seems to apply, so I'll add it:
"I never shut anyone down. Because when you shut someone down, they get paid to do nothing. I think that's somebody's else call."

Again, the organization is flawed from the top down. Ozzie's not without his faults, but to lay the entire season on his doorstep for playing guys that are on his roster is sketchy at best.

If it's time for Ozzie to go, I'll accept that. But others need to either go or change the way they work, or the results will be the same no matter who the Sox manager is next year.

kittle42
09-12-2011, 07:34 PM
If it's time for Ozzie to go, I'll accept that. But others need to either go or change the way they work, or the results will be the same no matter who the Sox manager is next year.

Amen to that.

Frater Perdurabo
09-12-2011, 07:43 PM
If it's time for Ozzie to go, I'll accept that. But others need to either go or change the way they work, or the results will be the same no matter who the Sox manager is next year.

This is a completely reasonable and rational statement, and I generally agree with it.

SI1020
09-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Add me to the chorus. A correct statement by russ.

DirtySox
09-12-2011, 07:58 PM
If it's time for Ozzie to go, I'll accept that. But others need to either go or change the way they work, or the results will be the same no matter who the Sox manager is next year.


Hear, hear.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-12-2011, 08:14 PM
If it's time for Ozzie to go, I'll accept that. But others need to either go or change the way they work, or the results will be the same no matter who the Sox manager is next year.

See, russ, it's not hard to say your opinion without talking down to people.

I agree with you, russ. Ozzie is just one (big) part of why the Sox are underachieving, but he's far from the only reason.

A. Cavatica
09-12-2011, 08:52 PM
BTW - Ozzie's quote on Quentin today sure seems to apply, so I'll add it:
"I never shut anyone down. Because when you shut someone down, they get paid to do nothing. I think that's somebody's else call."

Ouch, a swipe at Walker. Or Dunn. Or Rios. Or Oney...

gosox41
09-12-2011, 09:25 PM
Just from reading various articles over the last week or so (and not actually seeing Ozzie talk), it seems to me that he is on his way out and knows it.


As long as KW goes with him.


Bob

soltrain21
09-12-2011, 09:45 PM
Well, that's your opinion. I believe a large portion of the game to be mental, and a manager that understands that as well as the effect of the media (ESPECIALLY this media) is paramount.

So if the game is so mental then why is the manager saying that his pitcher will probably never be the same again? I bet that really helps out the confidence of Peavy if Ozzie talking out of his ass is as important as you say it is.

Dan H
09-12-2011, 09:47 PM
As long as KW goes with him.


Bob

I agree. As I write this, the White Sox are getting pummeled by Detroit again. Some fans thought 86 or 87 wins would win this division. Well the Tigers should have no trouble winning over 90 and the Sox are no where near capable of that.

Sweeping changes need to be made. I have no idea what to do with Rios and Dunn and their contracts. I just don't want either player in the starting lineup next year, much less prime spots in the lineup.

I don't expect the team to turn it around in one year. But enough of the denial. This team isn't very good.

blandman
09-13-2011, 12:06 AM
So if the game is so mental then why is the manager saying that his pitcher will probably never be the same again? I bet that really helps out the confidence of Peavy if Ozzie talking out of his ass is as important as you say it is.

This only makes sense if people are stupid enough to believe Cy Young quality Jake Peavy is possible. If that's the case, then you've proven me wrong. Ozzie's antics can't overpower the idiocy of some of our fan base.

As it stands, taking the pressure off is ALL anyone can do for Peavy, who is in the process of reinventing himself.

central44
09-13-2011, 01:06 AM
This only makes sense if people are stupid enough to believe Cy Young quality Jake Peavy is possible. If that's the case, then you've proven me wrong. Ozzie's antics can't overpower the idiocy of some of our fan base.

As it stands, taking the pressure off is ALL anyone can do for Peavy, who is in the process of reinventing himself.

Why the **** isn't it possible? Yes. It's highly, highly, HIGHLY unlikely Jake Peavy goes back to Cy Young form. He doesn't pitch in PetCo against an NL West that a .500 record can win. And yeah, he's had this surgery.

But so what? Absolutley nobody knows what the long term ramifications of that surgery are going to be. To say it's not possible is ridiculous because we have no way of being able to tell.

You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but it sure as ****ing hell isn't "stupid" to choose to be optimistic regarding something we know nothing about rather than a dark cloud.

And just because people don't agree with your opinion of Ozzie doesn't mean that they're "idiots."

central44
09-13-2011, 01:09 AM
If it's time for Ozzie to go, I'll accept that. But others need to either go or change the way they work, or the results will be the same no matter who the Sox manager is next year.

I think everyone would agree with this. Obviously it's not just Ozzie, which is why KW gets a lot of criticism as well.

It's not one or the other. They can both suck at their jobs--and lately, they both have.

Boondock Saint
09-13-2011, 01:28 AM
This only makes sense if people are stupid enough to believe Cy Young quality Jake Peavy is possible. If that's the case, then you've proven me wrong. Ozzie's antics can't overpower the idiocy of some of our fan base.

As it stands, taking the pressure off is ALL anyone can do for Peavy, who is in the process of reinventing himself.

This, (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AmynCG893RDMGJl.ciAgJpaFCLcF?gid=310 906109)this, (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AsghkxPU7wGOVW.DEHS_ES6FCLcF?gid=310 807109)and this (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=Atnn_auDSwF1GS8JqCS51oyFCLcF?gid=310 518104) would suggest that it is possible.

kufram
09-13-2011, 05:05 AM
A voice of reason. But fans tend to get more worked up about things like Ozzie's statements than they do about real life-and-death issues. That's why fan sites exist, I guess. You're closer to the truth than most of us.

Can Ozzie be a vindictive person if he never retaliates when his players get hit?

I'm not sure it is why fan sites exist but it does enable unreasonable reactions. As far as Ozzie not handling adversity well... WSI has quite a lot of that around also.

Hitmen77
09-13-2011, 07:57 AM
Ozzie doesn't get why Walker is being blamed for anything:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0913-white-sox-tigers-chicago--20110913,0,4673307.story

SI1020
09-13-2011, 08:21 AM
I'm not sure it is why fan sites exist but it does enable unreasonable reactions. As far as Ozzie not handling adversity well... WSI has quite a lot of that around also. It seems to me that you find almost every opinion unreasonable, As for adversity how would you know how anyone here has handled it? Critical reactions on a message board of all places, is hardly an indication how well a person does or doesn't handle adversity.

Moses_Scurry
09-13-2011, 08:23 AM
I agree. As I write this, the White Sox are getting pummeled by Detroit again. Some fans thought 86 or 87 wins would win this division. Well the Tigers should have no trouble winning over 90 and the Sox are no where near capable of that.

Sweeping changes need to be made. I have no idea what to do with Rios and Dunn and their contracts. I just don't want either player in the starting lineup next year, much less prime spots in the lineup.

I don't expect the team to turn it around in one year. But enough of the denial. This team isn't very good.

Detroit has passed Texas and is within range to pass the Yankees for the top seed.

doublem23
09-13-2011, 08:55 AM
I agree. As I write this, the White Sox are getting pummeled by Detroit again. Some fans thought 86 or 87 wins would win this division. Well the Tigers should have no trouble winning over 90 and the Sox are no where near capable of that.

Sweeping changes need to be made. I have no idea what to do with Rios and Dunn and their contracts. I just don't want either player in the starting lineup next year, much less prime spots in the lineup.

I don't expect the team to turn it around in one year. But enough of the denial. This team isn't very good.

The Tigers are looking like they're going to win home-field throughout the AL Play-offs. Obviously a lot of people severely underestimated how good they are.

blandman
09-13-2011, 09:47 AM
Why the **** isn't it possible? Yes. It's highly, highly, HIGHLY unlikely Jake Peavy goes back to Cy Young form. He doesn't pitch in PetCo against an NL West that a .500 record can win. And yeah, he's had this surgery.

But so what? Absolutley nobody knows what the long term ramifications of that surgery are going to be. To say it's not possible is ridiculous because we have no way of being able to tell.

You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but it sure as ****ing hell isn't "stupid" to choose to be optimistic regarding something we know nothing about rather than a dark cloud.

And just because people don't agree with your opinion of Ozzie doesn't mean that they're "idiots."

There's a difference between being optimistic and having unrealistic expectations. And unrealistic expectations on a player can have drastic and dire consequences. Can it happen? Sure. Is it likely? No. Should you hold out hope? No. And should you hold Peavy accountable? Certainly not.

But people will hold out hope. And they'll hold him responsible. It's the manager's job to minimize that impact so he can get the most out of him. Say what you want about Ozzie, but his is one thing he does VERY well.

soltrain21
09-13-2011, 09:54 AM
There's a difference between being optimistic and having unrealistic expectations. And unrealistic expectations on a player can have drastic and dire consequences. Can it happen? Sure. Is it likely? No. Should you hold out hope? No. And should you hold Peavy accountable? Certainly not.

But people will hold out hope. And they'll hold him responsible. It's the manager's job to minimize that impact so he can get the most out of him. Say what you want about Ozzie, but his is one thing he does VERY well.

So you are thinking the one thing Ozzie does very well is get the most out of his players? *Looks up and down roster and stats*


Riiiiight.

blandman
09-13-2011, 10:00 AM
So you are thinking the one thing Ozzie does very well is get the most out of his players? *Looks up and down roster and stats*


Riiiiight.

You think there's another manager out there that would have gotten more out of Dunn and Rios? Or a manager that could give Morel and Beckham more talent than they physically possess?

Well, that's your opinion.

Lip Man 1
09-13-2011, 10:41 AM
Dirty:

Just wondering. Can you post the link again to the story you have talked about in the past on the Sox spending the least amount of money over the past five years than anybody in MLB on the minor league system.

Thanks,

Lip

DirtySox
09-13-2011, 11:49 AM
Dirty:

Just wondering. Can you post the link again to the story you have talked about in the past on the Sox spending the least amount of money over the past five years than anybody in MLB on the minor league system.

Thanks,

Lip

I'm not sure which article you are specifically talking about. Here are the figures for bonus expenditures from 2008 - 2010.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2010/08/bonus-expenditures-2008-10/

Here is the 2011 list of bonus expenditures:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2011/08/bonus-expenditures-2011/

EDIT:

This might be what you're looking for.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2011/08/bonus-expenditures-2007-11/

Lip Man 1
09-13-2011, 12:05 PM
Dirty:

Thanks.

Lip

kufram
09-13-2011, 12:16 PM
It seems to me that you find almost every opinion unreasonable, As for adversity how would you know how anyone here has handled it? Critical reactions on a message board of all places, is hardly an indication how well a person does or doesn't handle adversity.


Not at all. It may seem that way to you but I don't post in enough threads to refer to it as "almost every opinion".

I find reasonable opinions reasonable. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think some of the reaction here to what Ozzie says to mediots is less than balanced. He makes me laugh sometimes, I'm embarrassed for him sometimes, sometimes I find him entertaining, and sometimes I find him annoying but interesting. At no time do I think what he says in an interview is particularly revealing or important.

I was referring to the way some people handle adversity so far as the White Sox game results go and it is evident in some posts here but I should have spelled that out, I suppose. Had a partial teal been available I would have used it.

JB98
09-13-2011, 12:39 PM
The Tigers are looking like they're going to win home-field throughout the AL Play-offs. Obviously a lot of people severely underestimated how good they are.

Yeah, remember those midsummer days when we thought 85 wins would take the division?

Uhhh ... we were wrong.

Detroit is significantly better than the Sox. It really hasn't been much of a competition the second half of the season.

JB98
09-13-2011, 12:47 PM
There's a difference between being optimistic and having unrealistic expectations. And unrealistic expectations on a player can have drastic and dire consequences. Can it happen? Sure. Is it likely? No. Should you hold out hope? No. And should you hold Peavy accountable? Certainly not.

But people will hold out hope. And they'll hold him responsible. It's the manager's job to minimize that impact so he can get the most out of him. Say what you want about Ozzie, but his is one thing he does VERY well.

You're not in any position to lecture people here about having "unrealistic expectations." As recently as two weeks ago, you were claiming the Sox were going to win the division. You were tsk-tsking those who disagreed.

I wish you had been right about that, but the fact is you were dead wrong. The Tigers are in great shape to clinch the division by the end of the week, and your credibility is in shambles.

blandman
09-13-2011, 12:54 PM
You're not in any position to lecture people here about having "unrealistic expectations." As recently as two weeks ago, you were claiming the Sox were going to win the division. You were tsk-tsking those who disagreed.

I wish you had been right about that, but the fact is you were dead wrong. The Tigers are in great shape to clinch the division by the end of the week, and your credibility is in shambles.

I was rara-ing the troops, this place has been too negative all year.

kittle42
09-13-2011, 01:06 PM
I was rara-ing the troops, this place has been too negative all year.

That could have a lot to do with this team's oh-so-predictable tendency to hover at-to-below .500.

blandman
09-13-2011, 01:19 PM
That could have a lot to do with this team's oh-so-predictable tendency to hover at-to-below .500.

Oh but it was fun while we were still in it.

kittle42
09-13-2011, 01:28 PM
Oh but it was fun while we were still in it.

Loads.

captain54
09-13-2011, 01:51 PM
Oh but it was fun while we were still in it.

It sure was exciting seeing the Sox struggle to get to .500 all year

blandman
09-13-2011, 02:28 PM
It sure was exciting seeing the Sox struggle to get to .500 all year

Right. It wasn't exciting when we cut the deficit to four games? I know everyone's upset because the Tiger's handed us our walking papers, but only a few weeks ago the team was playing the best it had all year.

dickallen15
09-13-2011, 02:36 PM
Right. It wasn't exciting when we cut the deficit to four games? I know everyone's upset because the Tiger's handed us our walking papers, but only a few weeks ago the team was playing the best it had all year.

This team was an epic bust.

kittle42
09-13-2011, 02:36 PM
Right. It wasn't exciting when we cut the deficit to four games? I know everyone's upset because the Tiger's handed us our walking papers, but only a few weeks ago the team was playing the best it had all year.

They did their usual win a few, lose a few. It was hardly exciting. More exciting than the same thing happening when a team is 10+ games out? Sure, but still not so exciting.

blandman
09-13-2011, 02:40 PM
They did their usual win a few, lose a few. It was hardly exciting. More exciting than the same thing happening when a team is 10+ games out? Sure, but still not so exciting.

Well I disagree. Having the longest winning streak of the season coinciding with cutting our deficit to less than five games for the first time in the second half was pretty damn exciting for me.

captain54
09-13-2011, 02:52 PM
Well I disagree. Having the longest winning streak of the season coinciding with cutting our deficit to less than five games for the first time in the second half was pretty damn exciting for me.

I'm sorry... the team was inconsistent all year... any team is that's hovering around .500... sometimes they're good, sometimes they suck.
You always had the feeling that if they got 4 games or under back of the lead, they would somehow find a way to slip back a couple. then slip forward a couple...and on and on..

and that's not being negative...that's being realistic.

also, everytime the Sox got closer I had the odd feeling that the organization got lulled into thinking that everything was fine... No, its not fine..

blandman
09-13-2011, 03:10 PM
I'm sorry... the team was inconsistent all year... any team is that's hovering around .500... sometimes they're good, sometimes they suck.
You always had the feeling that if they got 4 games or under back of the lead, they would somehow find a way to slip back a couple. then slip forward a couple...and on and on..

and that's not being negative...that's being realistic.

also, everytime the Sox got closer I had the odd feeling that the organization got lulled into thinking that everything was fine... No, its not fine..

If they're a .500 team like you're saying, their "realistic" statistical range is between 76 and 88 victories. So no, I didn't always feel they'd slip back. In fact, if the Tigers had not found another gear I dare say we probably would have taken this thing.

JB98
09-13-2011, 10:24 PM
Right. It wasn't exciting when we cut the deficit to four games? I know everyone's upset because the Tiger's handed us our walking papers, but only a few weeks ago the team was playing the best it had all year.

No. Even the 2007 season had more exciting moments than this season.

This is hands down my least favorite Sox team of all time. They are boring and bad. I enjoyed the late 90s more than this.

tstrike2000
09-13-2011, 10:41 PM
No. Even the 2007 season had more exciting moments than this season.

This is hands down my least favorite Sox team of all time. They are boring and bad. I enjoyed the late 90s more than this.

I don't think I've ever seen a Sox team basically lay down and play dead the entire season, but this team may be the first. If the pitching and infield defense weren't good a lot of the season, I'd hate to see what our record could be.

Nelfox02
09-13-2011, 10:49 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a Sox team basically lay down and play dead the entire season, but this team may be the first. If the pitching and infield defense weren't good a lot of the season, I'd hate to see what our record could be.

Konerko was fun to watch this year, other than that this has just been such a boring and bad season/team Sale has been very good, Santos solid, Humber had a nice first half......thats about if for the positives for me

tstrike2000
09-13-2011, 10:56 PM
Konerko was fun to watch this year, other than that this has just been such a boring and bad season/team Sale has been very good, Santos solid, Humber had a nice first half......thats about if for the positives for me

I'm happy for Paulie for the year he's had. It's just too bad he's had almost nobody hitting around him. If he had the type of protection we thought he'd get and didn't have nagging leg issues, imagine the monster numbers he could've had.

JB98
09-13-2011, 11:08 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a Sox team basically lay down and play dead the entire season, but this team may be the first. If the pitching and infield defense weren't good a lot of the season, I'd hate to see what our record could be.

At least they'll set a record for home futility with three more losses at USCF. This club deserves that distinction.

Sox have only had three years where they had a losing record in the new park:

1999: 38-42
2007: 38-43
2011: 33-41

What garbage the paying customers have had to put up with this year.

tstrike2000
09-13-2011, 11:29 PM
At least they'll set a record for home futility with three more losses at USCF. This club deserves that distinction.

Sox have only had three years where they had a losing record in the new park:

1999: 38-42
2007: 38-43
2011: 33-41

What garbage the paying customers have had to put up with this year.

And the crazier thing is they were like the third team or something in the AL to get 40 wins on the road but then sucked this bad at home. That, in and of itself, is just one example of how this team just hasn't made any sense.

Dan H
09-14-2011, 06:14 AM
If they're a .500 team like you're saying, their "realistic" statistical range is between 76 and 88 victories. So no, I didn't always feel they'd slip back. In fact, if the Tigers had not found another gear I dare say we probably would have taken this thing.

You are in denial, very deep denial.

jdm2662
09-14-2011, 08:42 AM
No. Even the 2007 season had more exciting moments than this season.

This is hands down my least favorite Sox team of all time. They are boring and bad. I enjoyed the late 90s more than this.

It's a tough call for me between 2009 and 2011. I was actually 6-2 this year, but most of my fun came in the pre-game. 2009 my record was 5-6, but I went to KC and MIL for trips, which they went 3-1. The game itself just wasn't very pleasant.

blandman
09-14-2011, 09:09 AM
You are in denial, very deep denial.

No, generally the range for a team is 6-8 games better or worse than what they're built to do. The consensus is that they're a .500 team.

doublem23
09-14-2011, 09:50 AM
No, generally the range for a team is 6-8 games better or worse than what they're built to do. The consensus is that they're a .500 team.

I'm guessing he was referring to your stance that the Sox would have won the division had Detroit not taken off, which I will also have to disagree with, this team's make-up is pathetic, no matter how badly the Tigers slumped, I'd have a hard time believing the Sox wouldn't just naturally be worse. It's all moot now that Detroit looks well on their way to 95-100 wins, but they could have finished the season with 84 and we'd have found a way to only go 83-79. The Sox suck.

blandman
09-14-2011, 09:53 AM
I'm guessing he was referring to your stance that the Sox would have won the division had Detroit not taken off, which I will also have to disagree with, this team's make-up is pathetic, no matter how badly the Tigers slumped, I'd have a hard time believing the Sox wouldn't just naturally be worse. It's all moot now that Detroit looks well on their way to 95-100 wins, but they could have finished the season with 84 and we'd have found a way to only go 83-79. The Sox suck.

Haha...it's really been that kind of season, hasn't it.

Golden Sox
09-19-2011, 08:41 AM
If the White Sox have a lineup in 2012 that has Dunn, Rios, Morel and Beckham, its going to be another long season. It won't matter who the manager is if we have these same guys in the lineup everyday. I still like to think that the lineup will be different. Hopefully Dunn and Rios won't be on the team next year.

TomBradley72
09-19-2011, 10:17 AM
No. Even the 2007 season had more exciting moments than this season.

This is hands down my least favorite Sox team of all time. They are boring and bad. I enjoyed the late 90s more than this.


+1
Horrible start in April/May
Modest comeback in June- early August
Flatlined again as Detroit kicked into high gear
Saddled with high priced/long term contracts for underachievers like Dunn, Rios & Peavy- Dunn seems out of shape and overmatched, Rios was called out more times for lack of hustle than any Sox player I can recall, Peavy would talk tough- then fall flat on his face.
Very little to be excited about in the farm system (as evidenced by very few sept call ups)
What young talent we do have- are mostly AAAA type players in their late 20's (De Aza, Humber, Flowers, etc.).
Way too much drama from our "management" team (Ozzie + KW + Walker)
Very little hope heading into 2012 based on #4 through #7

WisSoxFan
09-19-2011, 10:39 AM
+1
Horrible start in April/May
Modest comeback in June- early August
Flatlined again as Detroit kicked into high gear
Saddled with high priced/long term contracts for underachievers like Dunn, Rios & Peavy- Dunn seems out of shape and overmatched, Rios was called out more times for lack of hustle than any Sox player I can recall, Peavy would talk tough- then fall flat on his face.
Very little to be excited about in the farm system (as evidenced by very few sept call ups)
What young talent we do have- are mostly AAAA type players in their late 20's (De Aza, Humber, Flowers, etc.).
Way too much drama from our "management" team (Ozzie + KW + Walker)
Very little hope heading into 2012 based on #4 through #7


Hard to argue with any of this and it depresses me.

TomBradley72
09-19-2011, 11:59 AM
Hard to argue with any of this and it depresses me.

Me too.

The only thing I have in the sports world (w/Bears current state and NBA labor situation) is Illini football until the Blackhawks get going.

tacosalbarojas
09-19-2011, 12:06 PM
And the crazier thing is they were like the third team or something in the AL to get 40 wins on the road but then sucked this bad at home. That, in and of itself, is just one example of how this team just hasn't made any sense.
Fourth team in baseball at the time they reached the plateau. The other 3: Philly, Boston and New York. Kill me now.

soxinem1
09-20-2011, 10:19 AM
He certainly managed this year like he had some other place to go a couple of days after the regular season ended.

Yes, his 'Dream Job':
http://www.playoffsport.com/shop/images/FLORIDA%20MARLINS%20FRAMED%20CLOCK.gif
And the clock is ticking towards him getting it.

Fourth team in baseball at the time they reached the plateau. The other 3: Philly, Boston and New York. Kill me now.

And in his press conferences as the former manager of the White Sox, I'm sure Ozzie will rip into the fans for saying the team 'felt like it was on a 162-game road trip all season long, and that opposing fans treated them better than the hometown crowds'.

soltrain21
09-20-2011, 10:25 AM
Yes, his 'Dream Job':
http://www.playoffsport.com/shop/images/FLORIDA%20MARLINS%20FRAMED%20CLOCK.gif
And the clock is ticking towards him getting it.



And in his press conferences as the former manager of the White Sox, I'm sure Ozzie will rip into the fans for saying the team 'felt like it was on a 162-game road trip all season long, and that opposing fans treated them better than the hometown crowds'.

The players couldn't get the smell of urine out of their nose from all the statues being pissed on.

kaufsox
09-20-2011, 10:30 AM
I just don't want another year of "will he or won't he?" Time to go Oz, Kenny do it the way you want and see if it works, if it doesn't, time is up for you too.