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Lip Man 1
09-11-2011, 12:09 AM
Interesting:

"I (thought) about it, (pinch hitting for Dunn in the 9th inning) But, hey, this man is making $14 million and he has to earn it. He has to earn it. The reason we bring Dunn here is to hit with people on base. I think about it, yes I did.

"That's a lot of money to pinch-hit (for). Blame him. A lot of people were blaming me. No, blame him. That's the reason we bring him to this ballclub, to hit with people on base. Well, he didn't do the job today."

"I have to play him. I'm not going to sit this guy for three months without doing anything. If he's here, I will play him. I don't know how often, but I have to play him."

Lip

DickAllen72
09-11-2011, 12:10 AM
What an *******.

JB98
09-11-2011, 12:14 AM
Ridiculous. That is all.

central44
09-11-2011, 12:17 AM
This isn't little league where everyone has to play. This is the major leagues. Do your job, or sit down. How hard is it to understand?

KW's job is to worry about signing players. If he gives out a **** contract, it's his fault and he has acknowledged that.

Ozzie's job is to win games. Contracts are not his problem. ESPECIALLY when KW says exactly what I just said--play the guys who are going to help us win regardless of contract size.

Soxman219
09-11-2011, 12:28 AM
I just don't care anymore.

SI1020
09-11-2011, 12:29 AM
Sorry, but I've just got to think this is directed at Kenny.

tacosalbarojas
09-11-2011, 12:33 AM
Sorry, but I've just got to think this is directed at Kenny.
Absolutely. Sad at what this has become.

Noneck
09-11-2011, 12:36 AM
No shock here. No way the Sox were going to sit a guy with this kind of contract. Oz never had a choice in not playing him for any length of time.

Noneck
09-11-2011, 12:38 AM
Sorry, but I've just got to think this is directed at Kenny.


Id say the play him because I paid him came from a step up from Williams.

tstrike2000
09-11-2011, 12:42 AM
As much I love baseball, this season will soon mercifully end.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-11-2011, 12:47 AM
Interesting:

"I (thought) about it, (pinch hitting for Dunn in the 9th inning) But, hey, this man is making $14 million and he has to earn it. He has to earn it. The reason we bring Dunn here is to hit with people on base. I think about it, yes I did.

"That's a lot of money to pinch-hit (for). Blame him. A lot of people were blaming me. No, blame him. That's the reason we bring him to this ballclub, to hit with people on base. Well, he didn't do the job today."

"I have to play him. I'm not going to sit this guy for three months without doing anything. If he's here, I will play him. I don't know how often, but I have to play him."

Lip

Uh, it's called "sunk cost". You're paying him that $14 million no matter what, whether he strikes out for the billionth time with RISP or he's on the bench or, in some ridiculous topsy-turvy bizarro world, he actually comes through.

So, grasping that concept, Ozzie, your job is to put the best team on the field and give them the best chance to win. Dunn is in no way, shape or form ready to contribute to that. Yet, you keep hiding behind the "$14 million, guys, I gotta play him" and put him in in high-pressure situations. Are you TRYING to basically say "**** you" to Kenny and us fans?

Since it's so ridiculously predictable what he's going to do when he steps up to the plate, why not have him earn his pay by not giving him the chance to kill rallies?

Kenny ****ed up by signing him, but even the most fervent bashers of this deal couldn't have seen THIS abysmal of output from Dunn.

By the way, Ozzie, he was brought here to hit home runs on a consistent basis, not to play for singles with RISP. You don't ask a guy who can't hit .250 even in his best years to do that.

As far as sitting him for three months, well, why not? He's used to it, since that what he does all off-season.

In short, kiss my ass, can't wait until you leave.

The Immigrant
09-11-2011, 08:58 AM
In short, kiss my ass, can't wait until you leave.

:gulp:

+1

34rancher
09-11-2011, 09:05 AM
It's obvious we all have no idea what pressures/directives regarding Dunn that Ozzie has received. And at this point, your season is dunn, and you need to start seeing what you have for next year. You have to see if the guy has any kind of intensity (which he doesn't).
No one here has criticized (and been right) the Dunn signing more than I have. Ozzie is right though, can you imagine Frank being pinch hit for in the 9th? There is a reason Dunn has never been a part of a winning team. While he not be the only reason, he has a lot to do with it as someone who doesn't get pinch hit for in key situations.

doublem23
09-11-2011, 09:13 AM
No one here has criticized (and been right) the Dunn signing more than I have.

:clap:

Well congratu****inglations. I only hope you hurt your arm patting yourself on your back.

P.S., even if Dunn was hitting 40 HR and posting a .900 OPS you'd be complaining about the signing, anyways, so your words are pretty much hollow, petty buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuull****. Your not some kind of baseball oracle, if that's what you think. You're just lucky.

PaleHoser
09-11-2011, 09:17 AM
Kind of makes you wonder what he'd have to say about Rios if he'd ended the game 0-13 with bases loaded on the season, doesn't it?

Ozzie's basically saying "I put him up there to fail because he's drawing a big check". "Sunk cost" is why Ozzie must go after the season. Dunn and Rios are over 20% of the payroll and may respond better to another voice.

Dan H
09-11-2011, 09:50 AM
I am not concerned how often Dunn plays in 2011. The season is over. But I am very concerned about his future with the team and he should not be part of any White Sox plans for next year. I am well aware of his contract but I don't think Adam Dunn can play at the major league level any more. Maybe he and the White Sox can work on a buy out because this man should retire.

You hear it from out-of-town announcers. They either say he has no clue up there or his bat has become slow. They are obviously seeing things that Ozzie is not.

This situation has become embarrassing for both the White Sox and Dunn. He goes up there and can't even foul a pitch off. He walks off to the dugout under a cascade of boos. He doesn't come through and the Sox almost blow a winnable game. Ozzie then has defend his decision to play the guy.

The time for denial has to stop. For Dunn and for the White Sox.

kevingrt
09-11-2011, 09:52 AM
I just don't care anymore.

This guy.

One of the many reasons why I do not want to see Ozzie back next year is I do not want to see him deal with this Dunn situation anymore.

wassagstdu
09-11-2011, 09:55 AM
...Ozzie must go after the season. Dunn and Rios are over 20% of the payroll and may respond better to another voice.

Where the fault lies:
1. Dunn
2. KW
3. Bad luck
4. Whoever imbedded lead weights in Dunn's bat
5-8. Other
9. WSI (for for overvaluing the big bopper 1B/DH types)
10. Herm Schneider (Dunn came back too soon after surgery?)
11. Ozzie (for actually playing Dunn, probably under orders from KW)

Solution: Obviously, Fire Ozzie!

And actually, what would some of us be saying if Ozzie had benched Dunn when it was clear he was not going to turn it around? "Ozzie is showing up KW. Fire him!"

34rancher
09-11-2011, 10:02 AM
:clap:

Well congratu****inglations. I only hope you hurt your arm patting yourself on your back.

P.S., even if Dunn was hitting 40 HR and posting a .900 OPS you'd be complaining about the signing, anyways, so your words are pretty much hollow, petty buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuull****. Your not some kind of baseball oracle, if that's what you think. You're just lucky.

Wow still drunk and belligerent after the nd loss and this season?

It's not like I was a Johnny come lately piling on Dunn. There have been three guys I have criticized at the addition of: peavy , ohman, and Dunn. Peavy has had moments, but it's not like we lost cy young getting him, so in hindsight it has not helped nor hurt the sox. Ohman makes me nervous every pitch he throws still, but he has been average, so my critique has been a bit harsh on him too. For Dunn, I beat that drum really loud, was criticized and told how wrong I was going to be. So pardon me if I tell you politely to go back to bed and sleep it off.

doublem23
09-11-2011, 10:08 AM
Wow still drunk and belligerent after the nd loss and this season?

It's not like I was a Johnny come lately piling on Dunn. There have been three guys I have criticized at the addition of: peavy , ohman, and Dunn. Peavy has had moments, but it's not like we lost cy young getting him, so in hindsight it has not helped nor hurt the sox. Ohman makes me nervous every pitch he throws still, but he has been average, so my critique has been a bit harsh on him too. For Dunn, I beat that drum really loud, was criticized and told how wrong I was going to be. So pardon me if I tell you politely to go back to bed and sleep it off.

:bandance: Adam Dunn sucks and he ruined the Sox season. Yeah I'm the smartest guy around!!! :bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance:

SI1020
09-11-2011, 10:20 AM
And actually, what would some of us be saying if Ozzie had benched Dunn when it was clear he was not going to turn it around? "Ozzie is showing up KW. Fire him!" Benching a guy having the worst year ever would make us want to fire him too? I doubt that.

billyvsox
09-11-2011, 10:53 AM
Wow still drunk and belligerent after the nd loss and this season?

It's not like I was a Johnny come lately piling on Dunn. There have been three guys I have criticized at the addition of: peavy , ohman, and Dunn. Peavy has had moments, but it's not like we lost cy young getting him, so in hindsight it has not helped nor hurt the sox. Ohman makes me nervous every pitch he throws still, but he has been average, so my critique has been a bit harsh on him too. For Dunn, I beat that drum really loud, was criticized and told how wrong I was going to be. So pardon me if I tell you politely to go back to bed and sleep it off.

Rancher, I am with you 100%. I too criticized the signing harshly and was critized by many here. While I hate too see how bad he has failed because it really killed the Sox season, I am not suprised. Dunn is not a winner and has never been, he simply dosent care and it is well documented. He is a clubhouse killer this season.

Too many people IMO look at stats and OPS to decide a players ability and that is dangerous evaluation. Give me Carl Everett any day overthis bum.

34rancher
09-11-2011, 11:09 AM
Rancher, I am with you 100%. I too criticized the signing harshly and was critized by many here. While I hate too see how bad he has failed because it really killed the Sox season, I am not suprised. Dunn is not a winner and has never been, he simply dosent care and it is well documented. He is a clubhouse killer this season.

Too many people IMO look at stats and OPS to decide a players ability and that is dangerous evaluation. Give me Carl Everett any day overthis bum.

I hate that I was right. I wish I had been as wrong on Dunn as I was on Ohman. I just hope someone forces him to work out this offseason the right way. I would love if paulie pulled him in somehow to show him how a 30+ year old needs to work out in the long run.

The great thing about boards like this is to gain perspective each year off of previous threads and excitements. I remember how excited i was for David Wells, george Bell, Albert Belle, and even in my youth Tom Seaver. The big names that were heralded before they came to a sox uniform. We all get to high and too low sometimes.

dickallen15
09-11-2011, 11:18 AM
So Ozzie, instead of looking at charts that will show how guys hit against certain pitchers, how lefties and righties are successful against certain pitchers etc. prefers to look at the payroll chart. That's quality management right there.

TomBradley72
09-11-2011, 11:21 AM
My read on Ozzie's comments is that he is holding Dunn personally accountable for his performance this year- and is not letting him "hide" at the end of this horrible season.

To me it's very telling the comments OG has made on Dunn's conditioning, approach,etc.- I think he wants to make sure Dunn gets his head out of his ass in terms of preparation for 2012.

I'm not very optimistic about Dunn- even if he returns to his 2010 performance level- he'd still be a .199 hitter vs. LH's and a .230's hitter w/RISP- just not a good contract- especially when productive DHs are relatively easy to find (the 2010-2011 White Sox being the exception).

dickallen15
09-11-2011, 11:31 AM
My read on Ozzie's comments is that he is holding Dunn personally accountable for his performance this year- and is not letting him "hide" at the end of this horrible season.

To me it's very telling the comments OG has made on Dunn's conditioning, approach,etc.- I think he wants to make sure Dunn gets his head out of his ass in terms of preparation for 2012.

I'm not very optimistic about Dunn- even if he returns to his 2010 performance level- he'd still be a .199 hitter vs. LH's and a .230's hitter w/RISP- just not a good contract- especially when productive DHs are relatively easy to find (the 2010-2011 White Sox being the exception).

I don't know if he really went after his conditioning. I think it was more he has to work in the offseason with baseball stuff now that he's older. Maybe it worked out fine before, who knows, maybe if he actually picked up a bat during past offseasons his numbers may have been even better. There's always been questions as to how much baseball means to Dunn. I think at one time he was a hotshot QB in high school. The old Toronto GM got into a lot of trouble popping off about that, but maybe he was right. As for his physical condition, he really looks no heavier than he has looked the past several years, in fact, he may even be slightly leaner.

The Sox just have to hope this is something that is temporary. I hope the leash is short next year. I'm quite certain there will be a new hitting coach. Give him a couple of months, if its the same, you have to eat the money.

DrCrawdad
09-11-2011, 11:44 AM
I am not concerned how often Dunn plays in 2011. The season is over. But I am very concerned about his future with the team and he should not be part of any White Sox plans for next year. I am well aware of his contract but I don't think Adam Dunn can play at the major league level any more. Maybe he and the White Sox can work on a buy out because this man should retire.

You hear it from out-of-town announcers. They either say he has no clue up there or his bat has become slow. They are obviously seeing things that Ozzie is not.

This situation has become embarrassing for both the White Sox and Dunn. He goes up there and can't even foul a pitch off. He walks off to the dugout under a cascade of boos. He doesn't come through and the Sox almost blow a winnable game. Ozzie then has defend his decision to play the guy.

The time for denial has to stop. For Dunn and for the White Sox.

Dunn isn't going to retire at this point. He's not going to retire and either walk away from that huge (guaranteed) paycheck and I don't see him accepting some type of settlement for less than the entire value at this point either.

The Sox just have to hope that Dunn commits himself in the offseason. IMHO for Dunn hitting a baseball used to come naturally, something he could just wake up and do. Now, for whatever reason, he can't rest on his natural ability. If he's going to recover, now he'll have to work at it. Work at it like Konerko and heck work at it like Juan Pierre.


I don't know if he really went after his conditioning. I think it was more he has to work in the offseason with baseball stuff now that he's older. Maybe it worked out fine before, who knows, maybe if he actually picked up a bat during past offseasons his numbers may have been even better. There's always been questions as to how much baseball means to Dunn. I think at one time he was a hotshot QB in high school. The old Toronto GM got into a lot of trouble popping off about that, but maybe he was right. As for his physical condition, he really looks no heavier than he has looked the past several years, in fact, he may even be slightly leaner.

The Sox just have to hope this is something that is temporary. I hope the leash is short next year. I'm quite certain there will be a new hitting coach. Give him a couple of months, if its the same, you have to eat the money.

"dickallen15" I agree. A friend of mine at work played on the Texas football team with Dunn. He said that when Dunn was told that he wasn't going to QB he just walked away from football and college. Dunn told my friend, "I'm going to play baseball. I'll be in the majors in a year or two." My friend said he scoffed at Dunn at at the time.

Red Barchetta
09-11-2011, 11:47 AM
My read on Ozzie's comments is that he is holding Dunn personally accountable for his performance this year- and is not letting him "hide" at the end of this horrible season.

To me it's very telling the comments OG has made on Dunn's conditioning, approach,etc.- I think he wants to make sure Dunn gets his head out of his ass in terms of preparation for 2012.

I'm not very optimistic about Dunn- even if he returns to his 2010 performance level- he'd still be a .199 hitter vs. LH's and a .230's hitter w/RISP- just not a good contract- especially when productive DHs are relatively easy to find (the 2010-2011 White Sox being the exception).

With the season basically over and with the SOX fighting for the first loser position in the division, now there is talk that they will bench Dunn so that the White Sox do not carry the dubious distinction of having a player with the worst qualifying average. Anyone know how many PAs Dunn needs for this "honor" to be bestowed on him? I know the minimum is 502 and he had 436 at the end of August. With Ozzie turning in the line-up cards, this could become very interesting the last few games of the season.

Noneck
09-11-2011, 11:56 AM
It happens to everyone and when, no one ever knows. All of a sudden one day we become old, this can happen over night for some aspects of our lives. The more I watch Dunn the more I think this has happened to him. He has shown no glimmer of his old self through out this long year. Off season conditioning could have been a factor for a slow start but when it continues for the whole year, it is more than that.

Dan H
09-11-2011, 12:17 PM
Dunn isn't going to retire at this point. He's not going to retire and either walk away from that huge (guaranteed) paycheck and I don't see him accepting some type of settlement for less than the entire value at this point either.

The Sox just have to hope that Dunn commits himself in the offseason. IMHO for Dunn hitting a baseball used to come naturally, something he could just wake up and do. Now, for whatever reason, he can't rest on his natural ability. If he's going to recover, now he'll have to work at it. Work at it like Konerko and heck work at it like Juan Pierre.


I agree that Dunn won't retire and that he has to do something drastic to turn his career around. I'm only saying that no one should expect big things from him. As a fan, I never expect anything from him, either now or in the future.

I hope that somehow he turns things around. But the prospect of a .160 hitter in the middle of next year's lineup doesn't fill me with optimism. I hope the White Sox aren't kidding themselves about this either.

A. Cavatica
09-11-2011, 04:12 PM
Where the fault lies:
1. Dunn
2. KW
3. Bad luck
4. Whoever imbedded lead weights in Dunn's bat
5-8. Other
9. WSI (for for overvaluing the big bopper 1B/DH types)
10. Herm Schneider (Dunn came back too soon after surgery?)
11. Ozzie (for actually playing Dunn, probably under orders from KW)

Solution: Obviously, Fire Ozzie!

There are a great many reasons to fire Ozzie and few to keep him. Dunn is incidental to the argument.

MARTINMVP
09-11-2011, 04:19 PM
Interesting:

"I (thought) about it, (pinch hitting for Dunn in the 9th inning) But, hey, this man is making $14 million and he has to earn it. He has to earn it. The reason we bring Dunn here is to hit with people on base. I think about it, yes I did.

"That's a lot of money to pinch-hit (for). Blame him. A lot of people were blaming me. No, blame him. That's the reason we bring him to this ballclub, to hit with people on base. Well, he didn't do the job today."

"I have to play him. I'm not going to sit this guy for three months without doing anything. If he's here, I will play him. I don't know how often, but I have to play him."

Lip

**** you Ozzie! I was at yesterday's game, about 30 feet from the dugout, and us fans were screaming at Ozzie to pinch hit for Dunn at that moment. All he did was look at us with distain like we were all idiots. No, he shouldn't do something because fans tell him to, but as manager, he should be thinking ahead about this stuff and know that in a 9th inning situation with bases loaded, he doesn't have to bat Dunn there. There is no reason to keep him in the game!

Another guy near me yelled "lefty vs. lefty!" and Ozzie looked straight at him, and if I read his lips right, Ozzie said "I don't give a ****."

After the 9th inning ended, Ozzie was in the dugout playing with some stick (no, not a bat), and in my opinion, the body language just looked like he just didn't care anymore.

MARTINMVP
09-11-2011, 04:23 PM
Interesting:

"I (thought) about it, (pinch hitting for Dunn in the 9th inning) But, hey, this man is making $14 million and he has to earn it. He has to earn it. The reason we bring Dunn here is to hit with people on base. I think about it, yes I did.

"That's a lot of money to pinch-hit (for). Blame him. A lot of people were blaming me. No, blame him. That's the reason we bring him to this ballclub, to hit with people on base. Well, he didn't do the job today."

"I have to play him. I'm not going to sit this guy for three months without doing anything. If he's here, I will play him. I don't know how often, but I have to play him."

Lip

And Ozzie, your not doing your job.

Those Ozzie quotes just screams Kenny brought these players, I have to play them. Blame Kenny.

This season, Ozzie has played the blame Kenny strategy ahead of utilizing all his resources to try and win games. This is why Ozzie has to go.