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Frater Perdurabo
09-07-2011, 08:49 PM
No sense crying about the deal in which we shipped out Hudson and Holmberg for Edwin Jackson, whom KW shipped out roughly a year later for Stewart and Frasor. Let's leave Frasor and Holmberg out of the equation, and let's also put aside any debates over KW, OG or any other peripheral issues. Let's just compare and debate Hudson and Stewart themselves.

Would we rather have Hudson or Stewart in the 2012 rotation?

Daver
09-07-2011, 08:52 PM
Punt.

Frater Perdurabo
09-07-2011, 08:53 PM
Punt.

Come on, Daver, that's a cop-out. I'd particularly like to know what you think of them, and who you rank more highly.

SoxSpeed22
09-07-2011, 09:24 PM
If the whole thing about Hudson learning a new pitch when he got to Arizona was true, then he probably would not be as effective here without that pitch.
I still think they gave up on him too early, but he really wasn't that good here. He also did move through the system very quickly, since there wasn't much to work with.
I really don't know enough about Stewart to make an informed decision. If he can get the 2 seam fastball to move in on left and right handed batters, then he can really be tough.
So between White Sox Hudson and now Stewart, I will go with Hudson by not much, since most of it is speculation.

WSox597
09-07-2011, 09:25 PM
It's hard to pick at this point. One thing for sure, if Hudson was still pitching for the White Sox, he wouldn't have 15 wins.

It's hard to win 15 without an offense behind you.

I guess Hudson does have a slight edge, although Stewart showed signs of what he could be the other night.

voodoochile
09-07-2011, 09:36 PM
Well since there is ZERO chance it can be Hudson I'll go with Stewart.

KRS1
09-07-2011, 09:37 PM
Daniel's got a better fastball and change, Zach got the better breaking ball. Daniel's a bit younger and has the better track record at every level, so he's my choice.

Frater Perdurabo
09-07-2011, 09:54 PM
I get the humor of adding the obligatory churros option, but I kind of resent the idea that this was designed to be, and I quote, "a nother thinly disguised KW sucks thread," especially since I stated in the first post that it was not my intention to start that kind of debate.

Never mind the fact that I voted for Stewart. :scratch:

I like the way Stewart really goes after hitters. He may not have Jack McDowell's stuff or smarts, but he's got the same guts as Blackjack, and I think there's a spot for him in the rotation in 2012.

voodoochile
09-07-2011, 10:15 PM
I get the humor of adding the obligatory churros option, but I kind of resent the idea that this was designed to be, and I quote, "a nother thinly disguised KW sucks thread," especially since I stated in the first post that it was not my intention to start that kind of debate.

Never mind the fact that I voted for Stewart. :scratch:

I like the way Stewart really goes after hitters. He may not have Jack McDowell's stuff or smarts, but he's got the same guts as Blackjack, and I think there's a spot for him in the rotation in 2012.

Frater you had to know that this thread will turn into that whether you wanted to start that debate or not. In fact the mere fact you mention it proves how aware you were of exactly what you were doing even as you claimed not to be doing it.

I'm glad you picked Stewart but the day we can simply put Hudson out of our minds and off these boards will be a reason to celebrate for a week, IMO.

Edit: heck be glad I only edited the poll I was thinking about **** canning it or at least moving it to the TB forum as Hudson is NOT on the White Sox and if we moved Frank Thomas threads there when he left for other teams Hudson sure as **** deserves to be there.

doublem23
09-07-2011, 10:20 PM
Sharp liner off Hudson's head. Or, I don't care, get run over at 1st base, fall down the dugout stairs and shatter his arm... Something. Please somebody do me a square.

Frater Perdurabo
09-07-2011, 10:23 PM
Frater you had to know that this thread will turn into that whether you wanted to start that debate or not. In fact the mere fact you mention it proves how aware you were of exactly what you were doing even as you claimed not to be doing it.

I'm glad you picked Stewart but the day we can simply put Hudson out of our minds and off these boards will be a reason to celebrate for a week, IMO.

Voodoo, I thought it might provoke those kinds of tangential thoughts in some people, but as just a long-time poster here who has learned a lot by asking questions and reading the posts of people who know more than me, I'd like to see more threads that deal with actual "between the lines" baseball issues, especially as they pertain to Sox players. In fact, I learned something new from the other posts in this thread so far by SoxSpeed22, WSox597 and KRS1. It seems that so far folks have been able to stick to the topic/question at hand, which is what I had hoped/intended when I started the thread in the first place.

Brian26
09-07-2011, 10:55 PM
This is one of those questions that you can't answer in a vacuum.

How important was it to get Teahen's albatross contract out of here? He's batting .154 in his 17 games for Toronto. Rasmus is floundering at .216 thru 23 games before he got hurt. Edwin Jackson shaved a half point off his ERA in the NL so far, but he's been far from spectacular and is overpaid as it is.

I'm ok with Stewart right now.

doublem23
09-07-2011, 11:06 PM
This is one of those questions that you can't answer in a vacuum.

How important was it to get Teahen's albatross contract out of here? He's batting .154 in his 17 games for Toronto. Rasmus is floundering at .216 thru 23 games before he got hurt. Edwin Jackson shaved a half point off his ERA in the NL so far, but he's been far from spectacular and is overpaid as it is.

I'm ok with Stewart right now.

Right, I think we can all agree that in retrospect Jackson for Hudson/Holmberg was a bad deal, but hopefully between Humber, Stewart, and Sale the Sox have some nice young arms who will be able to replace him.

DSpivack
09-07-2011, 11:23 PM
I get the humor of adding the obligatory churros option, but I kind of resent the idea that this was designed to be, and I quote, "a nother thinly disguised KW sucks thread," especially since I stated in the first post that it was not my intention to start that kind of debate.

Never mind the fact that I voted for Stewart. :scratch:

I like the way Stewart really goes after hitters. He may not have Jack McDowell's stuff or smarts, but he's got the same guts as Blackjack, and I think there's a spot for him in the rotation in 2012.

I always vote for the churros option, in this case no matter what I think of KW.

PalehosePlanet
09-07-2011, 11:52 PM
I can't remember off the top of my head the last sinker/slider starting pitcher we had, but Zach definitely fits this mold.

My analysis, FWIW: He has good movement on the 2 seamer at about 90-93, and a nice sink on his fastball which is anywhere from 91-94 with a late tailing action to boot. His slider, I think, is his best pitch with good tilt and in the mid 80's for the most part. The changeup is a work in progress, it seems. Sometimes it's great, and sometimes he leaves it up. His arm action and motion with it is excellent though, which gives me hope that it will get more consistent. The curveball is just average at best and has been the pitch that he's been hurt on the most during his stint with us. It's a "show me" pitch that maybe he can ditch entirely if Coop can teach him a cutter.

I also really like his mound presence and bulldog demeanor.

Hudson is basically a two pitch pitcher: Fastball and changeup. He throws a few sliders but basically that's his "show me" pitch. The fastball is 92-95 and he has very god command of the pitch; the changeup is now above average.

Overall, I like both pitchers, but I think Zach's style of pitching is better suited to our park and the AL.

Falstaff
09-08-2011, 01:15 AM
I can't remember off the top of my head the last sinker/slider starting pitcher we had, but Zach definitely fits this mold.

My analysis, FWIW: He has good movement on the 2 seamer at about 90-93, and a nice sink on his fastball which is anywhere from 91-94 with a late tailing action to boot. His slider, I think, is his best pitch with good tilt and in the mid 80's for the most part. The changeup is a work in progress, it seems. Sometimes it's great, and sometimes he leaves it up. His arm action and motion with it is excellent though, which gives me hope that it will get more consistent. The curveball is just average at best and has been the pitch that he's been hurt on the most during his stint with us. It's a "show me" pitch that maybe he can ditch entirely if Coop can teach him a cutter.

I also really like his mound presence and bulldog demeanor.

Hudson is basically a two pitch pitcher: Fastball and changeup. He throws a few sliders but basically that's his "show me" pitch. The fastball is 92-95 and he has very god command of the pitch; the changeup is now above average.

Overall, I like both pitchers, but I think Zach's style of pitching is better suited to our park and the AL.

Jon Garland was a notable sinker/slider style pitcher.
Had a nice run of success with the Sox and really came into
his own at the right time for us. Zach has more stones already tho.

hawkjt
09-08-2011, 09:44 AM
I can't remember off the top of my head the last sinker/slider starting pitcher we had, but Zach definitely fits this mold.

My analysis, FWIW: He has good movement on the 2 seamer at about 90-93, and a nice sink on his fastball which is anywhere from 91-94 with a late tailing action to boot. His slider, I think, is his best pitch with good tilt and in the mid 80's for the most part. The changeup is a work in progress, it seems. Sometimes it's great, and sometimes he leaves it up. His arm action and motion with it is excellent though, which gives me hope that it will get more consistent. The curveball is just average at best and has been the pitch that he's been hurt on the most during his stint with us. It's a "show me" pitch that maybe he can ditch entirely if Coop can teach him a cutter.

I also really like his mound presence and bulldog demeanor.

Hudson is basically a two pitch pitcher: Fastball and changeup. He throws a few sliders but basically that's his "show me" pitch. The fastball is 92-95 and he has very god command of the pitch; the changeup is now above average.

Overall, I like both pitchers, but I think Zach's style of pitching is better suited to our park and the AL.


Nailed it.

Hitmen77
09-08-2011, 10:24 AM
Voodoo, I thought it might provoke those kinds of tangential thoughts in some people, but as just a long-time poster here who has learned a lot by asking questions and reading the posts of people who know more than me, I'd like to see more threads that deal with actual "between the lines" baseball issues, especially as they pertain to Sox players. In fact, I learned something new from the other posts in this thread so far by SoxSpeed22, WSox597 and KRS1. It seems that so far folks have been able to stick to the topic/question at hand, which is what I had hoped/intended when I started the thread in the first place.

Frater, well said.

I find this an interesting question because we essentially traded Hudson for Stewart and I'm very interested in hearing people's opinions about what they think of Stewart and how he compares to the rookie pitcher that we traded (and who has found success in the majors this year).

I'm not sure why this question was assumed to be another attack on Sox management.

Also, while we're on the topic, admitting that Hudson is doing well in Arizona is not automatically another attack on Sox management. He is doing well in the majors no matter how much people want to qualify it. Given that success, I find the replies on this thread so far that compare the two pitchers to be interesting and insightful.

asindc
09-08-2011, 10:44 AM
Frater, well said.

I find this an interesting question because we essentially traded Hudson for Stewart and I'm very interested in hearing people's opinions about what they think of Stewart and how he compares to the rookie pitcher that we traded (and who has found success in the majors this year).

I'm not sure why this question was assumed to be another attack on Sox management.

Also, while we're on the topic, admitting that Hudson is doing well in Arizona is not automatically another attack on Sox management. He is doing well in the majors no matter how much people want to qualify it. Given that success, I find the replies on this thread so far that compare the two pitchers to be interesting and insightful.

I agree with everything you said. To answer your question, however, there is a small subset of every fanbase that considers the success of a player traded away to be a failure of management to recognize the player's value. An even more extreme position is to expect every player traded for to end up being better than the player traded away in every case. Now some have been against the Hudson trade from the start, so there is no MMQing on their part.

As far as answering the OP's question, I will hold off until the end of the season, assuming Stewart gets in 2-3 more starts this season. I like what I see so far, though. He seems to have quite a bit of poise and decent command most of the time.

SoxandtheCityTee
09-08-2011, 11:08 AM
Good thread, Frater. I also come here to learn. If you can't bring a nuanced topic up in a reasonable way, expressly disclaiming KW bashing and asking people not to go off the deep end, just because some folks will go off the deep end no matter what, well, then they win. Or something like that. :D:

voodoochile
09-08-2011, 11:57 AM
Frater, well said.

I find this an interesting question because we essentially traded Hudson for Stewart and I'm very interested in hearing people's opinions about what they think of Stewart and how he compares to the rookie pitcher that we traded (and who has found success in the majors this year).

I'm not sure why this question was assumed to be another attack on Sox management.

Also, while we're on the topic, admitting that Hudson is doing well in Arizona is not automatically another attack on Sox management. He is doing well in the majors no matter how much people want to qualify it. Given that success, I find the replies on this thread so far that compare the two pitchers to be interesting and insightful.

You want me to start linking threads to Hudson discussions to back up my point that every single Hudson thread started has deteriorated into exactly that?

If it doesn't go that way, I will be the first person to jump up and down in joy and relief, but look no further than Doub's post earlier in this thread to find out where every single mod stands on the topic of Hudson threads because they invariably suck...

Hopefully this one will be different...