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Lip Man 1
09-05-2011, 01:35 AM
Says "everyone else" talks about him going to Florida but he doesn't.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0905-white-sox-brite--20110905,0,6091213.story

I heard from a source tonight that they think JR gives Walker a "golden parachute" at season's end...but anything more than that (i.e. regarding Ozzie or Kenny...) they are not sure what will happen.

Lip

thomas35forever
09-05-2011, 01:38 AM
I really don't know what to say anymore. Either he wants to return or he doesn't. Make up your mind already, Ozzie.

Lip Man 1
09-05-2011, 01:47 AM
Thomas:

Nobody knows what Ozzie is thinking anymore. Maybe he wants to return, under his terms, meaning a multi year extension and most or all of his coaches coming back.

Or maybe he wants to get fired. That way he gets paid and can go work for Fox for a year until his contract runs out than he can go anywhere he wants without that club having to give some compensation to the Sox for talking with him.

Who knows anymore.

Lip

russ99
09-05-2011, 01:49 AM
Thomas:

Nobody knows what Ozzie is thinking anymore. Maybe he wants to return, under his terms, meaning a multi year extension and most or all of his coaches coming back.

Or maybe he wants to get fired. That way he gets paid and can go work for Fox for a year until his contract runs out than he can go anywhere he wants without that club having to give some compensation to the Sox for talking with him.

Who knows anymore.

Lip


Again, look at Ozzie's quotes. They are very consistent, he wants to come back.

Everything else is speculation, or out and out fabrication by certain members of the press.

Lip Man 1
09-05-2011, 01:55 AM
Russ:

Ozzie also said directly to the media last week, "I don't think I'm going to come back with just one year on the contract."

That doesn't sound like a guy who wants to come back without certain conditions being met.

A number of non-confrontational media types (Ed Sherman and Bob Foltman being two that immediately come to mind) picked up on that quote and basically said, "does this mean that to bring him back he has to have a rolling three year deal all the time? Is he that insecure??"

There are issues with Kenny...there are more issues right now with Ozzie. One of the two simply has to go for the good of the organization. It's up to JR to make the call.

But I think it's safe to say this, if JR doesn't do anything and no one is held accountable for the past five years, the fan backlash this off season will be worse than the Sox are projecting.

Lip

StillMissOzzie
09-05-2011, 02:20 AM
Russ:

Ozzie also said directly to the media last week, "I don't think I'm going to come back with just one year on the contract."

That doesn't sound like a guy who wants to come back without certain conditions being met.

A number of non-confrontational media types (Ed Sherman and Bob Foltman being two that immediately come to mind) picked up on that quote and basically said, "does this mean that to bring him back he has to have a rolling three year deal all the time? Is he that insecure??"

There are issues with Kenny...there are more issues right now with Ozzie. One of the two simply has to go for the good of the organization. It's up to JR to make the call.

But I think it's safe to say this, if JR doesn't do anything and no one is held accountable for the past five years, the fan backlash this off season will be worse than the Sox are projecting.

Lip
I hope you are right, Lip, because if I hear the "back of the baseball card" argument / rationale for Dunn, I don't want to be held responsible for my actions. I feel that the team has quit on Ozzie, and if that falls on Ozzie's head, then so be it. Maybe JR will also decide that KW has made one too many big money mistakes ( Rios, then Peavy, and now Dunn ) and that he'll kick KW upstairs and hand the reins to Hahn, keeping him from the Baby Bears.

SMO
:gulp:

PeteWard
09-05-2011, 02:47 AM
Thomas:

Nobody knows what Ozzie is thinking anymore. Maybe he wants to return, under his terms, meaning a multi year extension and most or all of his coaches coming back.

Or maybe he wants to get fired. That way he gets paid and can go work for Fox for a year until his contract runs out than he can go anywhere he wants without that club having to give some compensation to the Sox for talking with him.

Who knows anymore.

Lip

Fox? I really do like Ozzie (not for Sox manager in 2012) and think his candor is great, but I have a hard time understanding him. And I do understand some Spanish and grew up with Hispanics. His accent is too thick for the booth in my opinion. Which is a shame because he would be a refreshing change from the bland clowns they usually put in the booth.

Dan H
09-05-2011, 03:39 AM
Russ:

Ozzie also said directly to the media last week, "I don't think I'm going to come back with just one year on the contract."

That doesn't sound like a guy who wants to come back without certain conditions being met.

A number of non-confrontational media types (Ed Sherman and Bob Foltman being two that immediately come to mind) picked up on that quote and basically said, "does this mean that to bring him back he has to have a rolling three year deal all the time? Is he that insecure??"

There are issues with Kenny...there are more issues right now with Ozzie. One of the two simply has to go for the good of the organization. It's up to JR to make the call.

But I think it's safe to say this, if JR doesn't do anything and no one is held accountable for the past five years, the fan backlash this off season will be worse than the Sox are projecting.

Lip

I really don't care what Ozzie wants or doesn't want. He needs to be gone and gone fast. It was one thing to lose to Verlander; it is quite another to give up 35 runs in three must games. This was nothing but a big choke and except for a few young guys, I don't care if they all go away. This was disgusting.

If this organization doesn't get how pissed fans are at this team, the denial thinking has to run deep. The debate in the organization should not be if Ozzie is gone but when. Now works for me. Kenny should be next.

Same for the players. Anyone perceived as quitters should be on the trading block. Losing is bad enough without giving up.

Maybe the fans should give up, too. Would they like to return to the 70's when they were drawing crowds of three and four thousand?

PeteWard
09-05-2011, 06:32 AM
I really don't care what Ozzie wants or doesn't want. He needs to be gone and gone fast. It was one thing to lose to Verlander; it is quite another to give up 35 runs in three must games. This was nothing but a big choke and except for a few young guys, I don't care if they all go away. This was disgusting.

If this organization doesn't get how pissed fans are at this team, the denial thinking has to run deep. The debate in the organization should not be if Ozzie is gone but when. Now works for me. Kenny should be next.

Same for the players. Anyone perceived as quitters should be on the trading block. Losing is bad enough without giving up.

Maybe the fans should give up, too. Would they like to return to the 70's when they were drawing crowds of three and four thousand?

Well using "perceive" in the passive voice is easy because you don't have to say who is perceiving . Who do you perceive as a quitter?
Me? Outside of Rios who just never seemed to care I would say absolutely no one on this team has quit. They are simply not good enough.

Bucky F. Dent
09-05-2011, 07:56 AM
Ozzie, I love ya, but GET THE HELL OUT!

Zakath
09-05-2011, 08:32 AM
Thank you for your services to the company, but the organization has decided to go in another direction. If any future employers call for references, due to legal restrictions, we will only verify employment.

Good luck to you in the future.

WSox597
09-05-2011, 08:42 AM
He, and his staff, can always come back when the Marlins play the Sox in inter-league play.

I don't care where Williams goes, as long as it isn't here.

Dan H
09-05-2011, 09:06 AM
Well using "perceive" in the passive voice is easy because you don't have to say who is perceiving . Who do you perceive as a quitter?
Me? Outside of Rios who just never seemed to care I would say absolutely no one on this team has quit. They are simply not good enough.

You are right about the team not being good enough. If I were in the club house every day, I'd have a good idea of who is actually quitting. I'll tell you one thing: Getting blown out 18-2 on national TV after losing a tough game doesn't show determination, does it?

tstrike2000
09-05-2011, 09:46 AM
http://americandigest.org/sidelines/Make-It-Stop.jpg

billyvsox
09-05-2011, 10:41 AM
This may sound stupid, but I think JR should make the moves now to remove Ozzie and KW.Let them quit, reassign, fired, whatever. Doing it now and making the club finish out the season with an interim manager will maybe shed a little light on who really wants to play or not.

My fear is that after the season, the players go away and then come back in the spring claiming they figured it out and this season will be different, etc....

Soxman219
09-05-2011, 10:52 AM
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Hitmen77
09-05-2011, 11:03 AM
Says "everyone else" talks about him going to Florida but he doesn't.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0905-white-sox-brite--20110905,0,6091213.story

I heard from a source tonight that they think JR gives Walker a "golden parachute" at season's end...but anything more than that (i.e. regarding Ozzie or Kenny...) they are not sure what will happen.

Lip

Ozzie doesn't know when to shut up, does he. This isn't like the crew re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic....it's like the captain constantly harping about wanting a contract extension.

Too bad Ozzie isn't more humbled by the fact that Detroit just utterly humiliated his team. It's always about what Ozzie thinks he has coming to him. Seriously, how anyone here can still defend this guy is amazing.

The silence from most of the Ozzie supporters (except for Russ) is deafening. All the cries of "haters" and "people having a narrative" have turning into sounds of crickets chripping.


Russ:

Ozzie also said directly to the media last week, "I don't think I'm going to come back with just one year on the contract."

That doesn't sound like a guy who wants to come back without certain conditions being met.

A number of non-confrontational media types (Ed Sherman and Bob Foltman being two that immediately come to mind) picked up on that quote and basically said, "does this mean that to bring him back he has to have a rolling three year deal all the time? Is he that insecure??"

There are issues with Kenny...there are more issues right now with Ozzie. One of the two simply has to go for the good of the organization. It's up to JR to make the call.

But I think it's safe to say this, if JR doesn't do anything and no one is held accountable for the past five years, the fan backlash this off season will be worse than the Sox are projecting.

Lip

Stupid Sox fans! Only they would refuse to support this team! This is just more proof that this fan base is full of complainers who are just looking for excuses to not go to games.

24thStFan
09-05-2011, 11:03 AM
I have a feeling BOTH Ozzie and KW will be back next season. Can't say why exactly, but being a Sox fan for 57 years may have something to do with it.

Next year will be brutal...hope the kids can play!

DickAllen72
09-05-2011, 11:15 AM
Says "everyone else" talks about him going to Florida but he doesn't.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0905-white-sox-brite--20110905,0,6091213.story

I heard from a source tonight that they think JR gives Walker a "golden parachute" at season's end...but anything more than that (i.e. regarding Ozzie or Kenny...) they are not sure what will happen.

Lip
That just shows you how screwed up JR is and why this organization is in such a mess. He feels he needs to give a failed hitting coach a "golden parachute" to leave instead of just not bringing him back next year.

JR gives his GM no authority, allows his manager to contunually criticize the fans in the media, and allows the batting coach to jump over the chain of command (manager, GM) and whine directly to the owner who then chastises the manager and GM for hurting the batting coach's feelings. Then he's going to give the batting coach a "golden parachute" to leave.

Sell, Jerry, sell.

ChiSoxGal85
09-05-2011, 11:22 AM
I have a feeling BOTH Ozzie and KW will be back next season. Can't say why exactly, but being a Sox fan for 57 years may have something to do with it.

Next year will be brutal...hope the kids can play!
I agree. I think JR is...what's the term? oh yeah - loyal to a fault. I don't see much change unless Walker or other coaches elect not to come back, which is not entirely impossible.

My biggest hope for next year is that Adam Dunn works his butt off over the winter and returns as the hitter we signed him to be.

hawkjt
09-05-2011, 11:24 AM
I do think that the incestuous nature of the Sox organization seems to be hurting it right now. JR is very loyal,and wants everyone to get along,but the kids are spoiled brats who refuse to stop picking at each other.

That said, those who say the Sox are doomed next year,or need to blow everything up,seem to forget that this is baseball,and stuff does change year to year. Where were the Tigers last year? Bad. This year, good. How could that happen? Well, it is baseball. They added Peralta last year and they added VMart this off season,and added Young this year,and boom,they are a great hitting team. Some fans here want to blow it up,instead of adding. Why?

Ozzie and kenny will be back,and the Sox will be right back in the hunt again next year.

cards press box
09-05-2011, 11:28 AM
I have a feeling BOTH Ozzie and KW will be back next season. Can't say why exactly, but being a Sox fan for 57 years may have something to do with it.

Next year will be brutal...hope the kids can play!

I'm also a long time Sox fan and I, too, think that both Ozzie and KW will be back next year. My guess is that Walker doesn't return as hitting coach but stays in the organization in some capacity, maybe as an executive or as a scout.

It's way to early to say how 2012 will go. A lot of player moves could happen between now and then.

Tragg
09-05-2011, 11:34 AM
I heard from a source tonight that they think JR gives Walker a "golden parachute" at season's end...


Golden Parachute? LOL. Did the Sox give Nardi Contreras a golden parachute?

kufram
09-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Ozzie doesn't know when to shut up, does he. This isn't like the crew re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic....it's like the captain constantly harping about wanting a contract extension.

Too bad Ozzie isn't more humbled by the fact that Detroit just utterly humiliated his team. It's always about what Ozzie thinks he has coming to him. Seriously, how anyone here can still defend this guy is amazing.

The silence from most of the Ozzie supporters (except for Russ) is deafening. All the cries of "haters" and "people having a narrative" have turning into sounds of crickets chripping.




Stupid Sox fans! Only they would refuse to support this team! This is just more proof that this fan base is full of complainers who are just looking for excuses to not go to games.

Yeah, the silence is about the same from people on the other side of the argument after a good win so I wouldn't read too much into that. I've said many times that I like Ozzie but I wouldn't take him home to dinner with the family because of his language. If they get a manager that wins us more games I'll miss him for about 5 minutes. If a manager can make Dunn hit 30 home runs I'll be impressed.

I don't come to this site sometimes because I know what will be here. It is predictable and I've read the supposition before many, many times. I'm not putting it down in any way, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't think heresay and second guessing what people are thinking or what people are going to do in the future serves any purpose. I can find a way to understand people who have opinions I don't agree with.

JR is clearly a good business man if he can keep a good balance sheet with fewer people going to the park. There is a problem in Chicago but I think putting a face on it i.e. Ozzie's face, is just that... putting a face on it... not solving it.

Also, I think it is a mistake to equate WSI with "the fan base" what ever that means. This is not a site that the average fan is necessarily part of. We're all a little compulsive here, I think.

ktssox
09-05-2011, 12:00 PM
Ozzie doesn't know when to shut up, does he. This isn't like the crew re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic....it's like the captain constantly harping about wanting a contract extension.

Too bad Ozzie isn't more humbled by the fact that Detroit just utterly humiliated his team. It's always about what Ozzie thinks he has coming to him. Seriously, how anyone here can still defend this guy is amazing.

The silence from most of the Ozzie supporters (except for Russ) is deafening. All the cries of "haters" and "people having a narrative" have turning into sounds of crickets chripping.

The "Ozzie supporters" don't say much because they just get blasted by a very vocal majority. I don't want to get yelled at every time I post something like russ does. But, you just showed your true colors as an Ozzie hater, rather than a logical thinker who knows baseball because there is NOTHING in that article that should make you say Ozzie doesn't know when to shut up. Did you even read the article? Now you're just criticizing without analyzing, as you seem to think the defenders do. I don't understand why every issue we deal with on this board has to become a "you're an idiot, and I'm smarter than you" debate. We all realize there are problems with this team. Just because some people believe that problem rests more on Kenny's shoulders does not make those people stupid.

hawkjt
09-05-2011, 12:12 PM
I think the balance sheet for the Sox is just fine.
They do not have any debt,that I know of,and they have a lot of equity built up.
They have a chunk of ComcastSportsNet,and they own the land that Soxpark sits on.
They are in a big market with outside media revenues assured.
And we all know that the actual value of the Sox is somewhere north of 700 million,with an intial investment by Sox investors of 20 million.

Now, income statement? Different matter.
They might just lose some money this year. Or break even.
But, that is a one year snapshot,not a long term problem.
As indicated,they have media revenues, and other outside sources of income that prop them up.

Overall, their financial condition is fine.

kevingrt
09-05-2011, 12:17 PM
I have a feeling BOTH Ozzie and KW will be back next season. Can't say why exactly, but being a Sox fan for 57 years may have something to do with it.

Next year will be brutal...hope the kids can play!

I have the same exact feeling as you do.

But I think Ozzie walks away if he doesn't get a contract extension at the end of the year. But really who knows at this point. I do not even know if Reinsdorf has a clue as what he is going to do at the end of the year.

VMSNS
09-05-2011, 12:24 PM
C'mon guys! This is just Ozzie trying to deflect the blame away from his players after getting completely annihilated by Detroit! Duh!

Everything regarding this topic has already been said. My feelings: Ozzie, get the **** out of Chicago and away from my baseball team. You're a classless, egotistical fool.

blandman
09-05-2011, 12:25 PM
The "Ozzie supporters" don't say much because they just get blasted by a very vocal majority. I don't want to get yelled at every time I post something like russ does. But, you just showed your true colors as an Ozzie hater, rather than a logical thinker who knows baseball because there is NOTHING in that article that should make you say Ozzie doesn't know when to shut up. Did you even read the article? Now you're just criticizing without analyzing, as you seem to think the defenders do. I don't understand why every issue we deal with on this board has to become a "you're an idiot, and I'm smarter than you" debate. We all realize there are problems with this team. Just because some people believe that problem rests more on Kenny's shoulders does not make those people stupid.

Or the players, for that matter.

Seems to me, logically, that the players are most at fault. Specifically two players. If they weren't historically mailing it in, we'd have won the division handily.

Some want to pin that on Ozzie for not sitting them out all year. That's fine. But it's also hard to do. Because players with long contracts can't be released or sent to the minors. You have to see them every day. And, especially in Dunn's case, it makes more sense to have him work through it. Because, on the bench, he'd just take up space (as he has no value as a defender or runner).

Some want to pin that on KW. Sure, he picked the players. He brought in Rios in what a lot of people consider a triumph for Toronto. Then again, it was lauded as a triumph for Kenny just last year. As for picking up Dunn, I don't think the fanbase had been as excited over a free agent signing this much since Albert Belle. It didn't work out, and that is Kenny's job. But I'm not going to hold him responsible for something I wanted him to do.

I think Greg Walker should go. I think if you're going to blow it up, Kenny should go. He's not the type of GM to build from prospects. I think if you're going to try another year, Kenny and Ozzie have to come back. Ozzie's probably one of the ten best managers in baseball. It would be hard to get someone better if you're really going to go at it next year. If we rebuild, then maybe call the Marlins.

Lip Man 1
09-05-2011, 12:50 PM
Dick:

For better or worse, JR did not have the same relationship with Nardi as he does with Walker.

JR may feel, for right or wrong, that Walker has been caught in the crossfire unfairly and is trying to make things right with him as he leaves.

Just speculation on my part.

Lip

Brian26
09-05-2011, 01:32 PM
Dick:

For better or worse, JR did not have the same relationship with Nardi as he does with Walker.

Correct. Walker is a Reinsdorf guy, similar to KW, Ozzie, Harold and the rest of the band. They are like his kids. Mike Pazik, Gary Ward, Von Joshua, Nardi, Sammy Ellis, Bevington, etc...not the same situation.

captain54
09-05-2011, 01:36 PM
That said, those who say the Sox are doomed next year,or need to blow everything up,seem to forget that this is baseball,and stuff does change year to year.

Ozzie and kenny will be back,and the Sox will be right back in the hunt again next year.

How about actually getting to the playoffs, instead of "being in the hunt" every year? And if it not were for a bad division, the Sox would have been "out of the hunt" long long ago.

And I don't know what team you are watching, but what exactly has changed from year to year with the White Sox? Bad starts, collapses down the stretch, bad fundamentals, mediocre/poor offense.. That seems to have been the menu since mid 06'

A major market with a loyal fan base and potential fans in a tri-state area, major media market, and the resources to put together a winner, and an elite dominant team year after year. But if your happy with "being in the hunt' every year, then go for it.

JB98
09-05-2011, 01:45 PM
How about actually getting to the playoffs, instead of "being in the hunt" every year? And if it not were for a bad division, the Sox would have been "out of the hunt" long long ago.

And I don't know what team you are watching, but what exactly has changed from year to year with the White Sox? Bad starts, collapses down the stretch, bad fundamentals, mediocre/poor offense.. That seems to have been the menu since mid 06'

A major market with a loyal fan base and potential fans in a tri-state area, major media market, and the resources to put together a winner, and an elite dominant team year after year. But if your happy with "being in the hunt' every year, then go for it.

Yeah, this is my question: In the hunt for what? A .500 season?

Let's take an honest look at the last three seasons. They had one stretch of 31 games during the summer of 2010 where they played brilliant baseball. They went 26-5, in fact.

The other 432 games since Opening Day 2009 have been pretty ugly, IMO. I have NEVER felt the 2011 Sox were "in the hunt" since the day Liriano threw his no-hitter. I hadn't given up hope so early in a Sox season since the late 90s. I've taken my fair share of heat from WSI's pollyanna division this summer, but we all see the results. The results speak for themselves.

We need real change in this organization. The Sox (quite rightfully) fired Jerry Manuel for less than this.

Vernam
09-05-2011, 01:53 PM
Says "everyone else" talks about him going to Florida but he doesn't.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0905-white-sox-brite--20110905,0,6091213.storyI can't believe no one has pointed out the irony that Ozzie's attempt to show solidarity with his coaches ends with this statement, in the event that Reinsdorf insists on firing one or more members of his staff: "OK, tell me who's out, then I'll make my decision."

A real stand-up guy.

Vernam

Rocky Soprano
09-05-2011, 02:25 PM
Yes Ozzie, coaches don't win games.
They lose them.

russ99
09-05-2011, 02:56 PM
Ozzie doesn't know when to shut up, does he. This isn't like the crew re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic....it's like the captain constantly harping about wanting a contract extension.

Too bad Ozzie isn't more humbled by the fact that Detroit just utterly humiliated his team. It's always about what Ozzie thinks he has coming to him. Seriously, how anyone here can still defend this guy is amazing.

The silence from most of the Ozzie supporters (except for Russ) is deafening. All the cries of "haters" and "people having a narrative" have turning into sounds of crickets chripping.

Stupid Sox fans! Only they would refuse to support this team! This is just more proof that this fan base is full of complainers who are just looking for excuses to not go to games.

It's just as foolish to equate 130+ angry people on this board (or whatever the Ozzie vote is up to now) as "the fanbase" as it is to equate other fans not going with the Fire Ozzie mob as silence.

russ99
09-05-2011, 03:02 PM
How about actually getting to the playoffs, instead of "being in the hunt" every year? And if it not were for a bad division, the Sox would have been "out of the hunt" long long ago.

And I don't know what team you are watching, but what exactly has changed from year to year with the White Sox? Bad starts, collapses down the stretch, bad fundamentals, mediocre/poor offense.. That seems to have been the menu since mid 06'

A major market with a loyal fan base and potential fans in a tri-state area, major media market, and the resources to put together a winner, and an elite dominant team year after year. But if your happy with "being in the hunt' every year, then go for it.

That being on the menu since mid '06 is the choice ownership made, not shoring up obvious needs, blatant ignorance on the draft and player development, and a GM making moves more heavily pointed to risk than reward, mostly due to financial reasons.

The most upset I am about this year is that it it was the one time Kenny convinced Jerry to make an attempt in the wintertime, and it's failed miserably, so you know Jerry isn't going to ever do that again.

kittle42
09-05-2011, 03:13 PM
Yeah, this is my question: In the hunt for what? A .500 season?

Let's take an honest look at the last three seasons. They had one stretch of 31 games during the summer of 2010 where they played brilliant baseball. They went 26-5, in fact.

The other 432 games since Opening Day 2009 have been pretty ugly, IMO. I have NEVER felt the 2011 Sox were "in the hunt" since the day Liriano threw his no-hitter. I hadn't given up hope so early in a Sox season since the late 90s. I've taken my fair share of heat from WSI's pollyanna division this summer, but we all see the results. The results speak for themselves.

We need real change in this organization. The Sox (quite rightfully) fired Jerry Manuel for less than this.

I also find it puzzling that many here seem satisfied enough with .500 baseball in a horrible division because it keeps the Sox "in the hunt" for most of the season. True Second City thinking.

captain54
09-05-2011, 03:30 PM
The most upset I am about this year is that it it was the one time Kenny convinced Jerry to make an attempt in the wintertime, and it's failed miserably, so you know Jerry isn't going to ever do that again.

You are assuming that KW has the power to convince JR to make a decision one way or another. I'm sure KW has input, but we've seen
evidence time and time again thru the years that JR is the man who calls the shots. And time and time again KW is willing to fall on the sword for the Chairman

kufram
09-05-2011, 04:12 PM
It puzzles me that some people seem to be here not so much to give their point of view as to constantly belittle others. If someone's point of view is beyond your imagination it is really your problem.

A. Cavatica
09-05-2011, 04:17 PM
Says "everyone else" talks about him going to Florida but he doesn't.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0905-white-sox-brite--20110905,0,6091213.story

I heard from a source tonight that they think JR gives Walker a "golden parachute" at season's end...but anything more than that (i.e. regarding Ozzie or Kenny...) they are not sure what will happen.

Lip

If that's all that happens I will find another team to root for.

A. Cavatica
09-05-2011, 04:21 PM
I also find it puzzling that many here seem satisfied enough with .500 baseball in a horrible division because it keeps the Sox "in the hunt" for most of the season. True Second City thinking.

Cub thinking.

kittle42
09-05-2011, 07:35 PM
It puzzles me that some people seem to be here not so much to give their point of view as to constantly belittle others. If someone's point of view is beyond your imagination it is really your problem.

Puzzling!

DirtySox
09-05-2011, 07:39 PM
Kittle's new signature quote is the bee's knees.

blandman
09-05-2011, 08:32 PM
I also find it puzzling that many here seem satisfied enough with .500 baseball in a horrible division because it keeps the Sox "in the hunt" for most of the season. True Second City thinking.

There's a huge difference between being satisfied with being above .500 and understanding of circumstance.

Anyone who can look at this team, with two of it's most important building blocks becoming anchors, and blame the manager despite his keeping the team afloat and playing meaningful games into September...is simply out for blood. No doubt about it. It's a good thing JR went through the LaRussa thing. He's not going to let idiot media and fans with personal gripes with managers chase a good manager out of town again. If Ozzie leaves, it will be because we're rebuilding. Not because he isn't a tremendous manager.

SI1020
09-05-2011, 08:33 PM
It puzzles me that some people seem to be here not so much to give their point of view as to constantly belittle others. If someone's point of view is beyond your imagination it is really your problem. Examples? My own posts have been taken issue with from time to time. Sometimes I even find occasion to give a cyber thumbs up to someone who has really criticized me. It's a fan message board, and the Sox have tanked once again. It's not going to be all moonlight and roses. Most message boards are a lot less cerebral and a lot harsher than this place.

Edit: I've been reading posts this morning and only notice one poster who constantly belittles others, and does it in a most condescending manner I must say. All of the other back and forth, give and take seems to be in normal bounds. Just my opinion.

JB98
09-05-2011, 08:40 PM
There's a huge difference between being satisfied with being above .500 and understanding of circumstance.

Anyone who can look at this team, with two of it's most important building blocks becoming anchors, and blame the manager despite his keeping the team afloat and playing meaningful games into September...is simply out for blood. No doubt about it. It's a good thing JR went through the LaRussa thing. He's not going to let idiot media and fans with personal gripes with managers chase a good manager out of town again. If Ozzie leaves, it will be because we're rebuilding. Not because he isn't a tremendous manager.

It's pretty hard to take you seriously when you make grandiose pronouncements about other people's motives.

happydude
09-05-2011, 09:04 PM
There's a huge difference between being satisfied with being above .500 and understanding of circumstance.

Anyone who can look at this team, with two of it's most important building blocks becoming anchors, and blame the manager despite his keeping the team afloat and playing meaningful games into September...is simply out for blood. No doubt about it. It's a good thing JR went through the LaRussa thing. He's not going to let idiot media and fans with personal gripes with managers chase a good manager out of town again. If Ozzie leaves, it will be because we're rebuilding. Not because he isn't a tremendous manager.

I agree with your general premise; I'll take a pass, though, on the name calling and characterizations. Some seem to be out for blood, at times, based on the year long commentary in post-game threads. Others, though, simply have a difference of opinion that they are able to explain with logic and reason.

Personally, I like both Williams and Guillen and believe we were compromised primarily by the nonproduction of our last three big free agent signings. Jake can't stay healthy; the performances of Rios and Dunn are just baffling. I can't blame Ozzie for not anticipating, or being able to make up for, the unimaginable; in fact, I'd probably look to Wiliams since he hired these guys.

Lately, though, its always something with us that we'll resolve "next year". I'm ok with cleaning house or maintaining the status quo and seeing what next season brings. Meanwhile, I'm still watching games.

Lip Man 1
09-05-2011, 09:11 PM
Ummmm... for those who don't know or have forgotten or have decided to reinvent history.

Tony LaRussa WAS NOT fired by fans or media. Tony LaRussa was fired by Hawk Harrelson because the two had complete different attitudes towards how a team should be constructed, what the role of assistant coaches should be and because Hawk specifically felt that LaRussa was "biased" against the players he brought in with off season trades. Marc Hill in the latest WSI interview specifically said that Hawk and Dave Duncan for example did not get along.

Jerry Reinsdorf himself allowed Hawk to fire Tony and then regretted it for the rest of his professional life. (his words...)

"Eddie and I would talk to Hawk and (Don) Drysdale at length, and Hawk more so, to identify problems in the organization, we were still neophytes in this business and we were impressed with the way Hawk pointed out our problems. [GM] wasn't something he really wanted him to do, but we urged him to help us out. The mistake was that when you go to a doctor who diagnoses open-heart surgery, you don't have him do the surgery because he diagnosed the problem, you get a heart surgeon. Just because Hawk was able to diagnose our problems did not mean he could solve them. It was a terrible position to put him in, and a year later, he said he wanted out." – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Tribune’s Melissa Issacson. May 28, 2004.

Folks you can say a lot of things about JR both good and bad but one thing you can never say is that he was influenced to make a move or not make a move because of the fans or the media.

That is sheer unadulterated nonsense.

Lip

kittle42
09-05-2011, 10:12 PM
Anyone who can look at this team, with two of it's most important building blocks becoming anchors, and blame the manager despite his keeping the team afloat and playing meaningful games into September...is simply out for blood. No doubt about it. It's a good thing JR went through the LaRussa thing. He's not going to let idiot media and fans with personal gripes with managers chase a good manager out of town again. If Ozzie leaves, it will be because we're rebuilding. Not because he isn't a tremendous manager.

Speaking of people who belittle a position opposite of theirs...

Also, it occurred to me today that you and russ never actually state what it is that makes Ozzie Guillen such a tremendous manager, while the rest of us are easily able to cite a multitude of things that make him a subpar manager, backed with actual facts and game situations/decisions.

So, please, indulge me.

A. Cavatica
09-05-2011, 10:39 PM
Speaking of people who belittle a position opposite of theirs...

Also, it occurred to me today that you and russ never actually state what it is that makes Ozzie Guillen such a tremendous manager, while the rest of us are easily able to cite a multitude of things that make him a subpar manager, backed with actual facts and game situations/decisions.

So, please, indulge me.

Kittle, may I submit as evidence the 2005 World Series trophy?

There are a few spots of rust on it, but I think it answers the criticisms now as well as it did six years ago.







(P.S. I hope no teal was required.)

Rikirk
09-05-2011, 10:47 PM
"Ozzie Wants To Return in '12 With His Current Staff"

HA!!

:roflmao:

russ99
09-05-2011, 10:47 PM
Speaking of people who belittle a position opposite of theirs...

Also, it occurred to me today that you and russ never actually state what it is that makes Ozzie Guillen such a tremendous manager, while the rest of us are easily able to cite a multitude of things that make him a subpar manager, backed with actual facts and game situations/decisions.

So, please, indulge me.

No, I maintain those "actual facts" and game situations/decisions are things Ozzie's detractors don't want to see the Sox doing, rather than actually incorrect decisions or poor strategy.

As an example, when a starter is left in to get themselves out of a jam (as any starter would not only want, but have publicly said they prefer) you say it's a flaw of managing, I say it's a strength, and a big reason why the Sox get so much out of their starters.

Another retort - in the daily lineup whining thread, it seems that the fans want the same 9 guys playing every day in the same batting positions, and certain veteran players not to play at all, or at best be kept out of the middle of the lineup. This has no basis in reality in how every other big league club is managed. In a microcosm of seeing the Sox play everyday, it's assumed Ozzie is stupid.

Don't even get me started on bunting.

He's not without weaknesses. I've gone on the record as saying that Ozzie's main flaw (on the field) is a tendency to go with matchups too much, especially lefty-righty. Also, he tends to work relievers around in different roles earlier in the season, when those roles would normally be set coming out of spring training.

Otherwise, he's a good NL-style manager, and that rubs some the wrong way. I maintain he's the best manager the Sox have had in my lifetime, 40+ years of being a fan, and that's worth sticking with the guy when many, many others have not.

blandman
09-05-2011, 11:14 PM
It's pretty hard to take you seriously when you make grandiose pronouncements about other people's motives.

It's not grandiose if people are ranting based on things that have nothing to do with the manager, but blaming it on him. Maybe it does make sense to them. But that's what makes it irrational hate. To an outsider there's no basis in fact.

Speaking of people who belittle a position opposite of theirs...

Also, it occurred to me today that you and russ never actually state what it is that makes Ozzie Guillen such a tremendous manager, while the rest of us are easily able to cite a multitude of things that make him a subpar manager, backed with actual facts and game situations/decisions.

So, please, indulge me.

Are you ****ing kidding me? The dude is 66 games over .500 as a manager in his career and has a World Series title. He's at least one of the top ten best managers in baseball, if not top five.

JB98
09-05-2011, 11:19 PM
It's not grandiose if people are ranting based on things that have nothing to do with the manager, but blaming it on him. Maybe it does make sense to them. But that's what makes it irrational hate. To an outsider there's no basis in fact.

Such as?

I don't hate Ozzie or Kenny. However, it's time to ask some tough questions after three straight disappointing seasons. There is nothing irrational about that.

Frankly, I thought you were being rather irrational last week when you were predicting the Sox were going to win the division. I sure wish you were right about that, but I just don't see it. And I haven't seen it for months.

blandman
09-05-2011, 11:27 PM
Such as?

I don't hate Ozzie or Kenny. However, it's time to ask some tough questions after three straight disappointing seasons. There is nothing irrational about that.

Frankly, I thought you were being rather irrational last week when you were predicting the Sox were going to win the division. I sure wish you were right about that, but I just don't see it. And I haven't seen it for months.

The reason we aren't winning the division is that the team was built around guys like Dunn and Rios. It is not logical to call for the head of a manager who's kept his team competing despite the fact that two of his main pieces were anchors all year. Additionally, blaming Ozzie for keeping them in the lineup shows very little understanding of the contract structure in baseball. Or, at the very least, an under-appreciation to the commitment the team has made to those players over the next several years. However you slice it, it's certainly not rational blame the manager. But he's not popular with a lot of these same people anyway; people who've called for his head regarding off the field incidents with his kids and such. And point every opportunity to blame him when things go bad, claiming he's "lost the clubhouse". Bull****. He hasn't lost the clubhouse, these guys fought on despite missing key elements to their formula all year. They fought for Ozzie.

A. Cavatica
09-05-2011, 11:39 PM
The reason we aren't winning the division is that the team was built around guys like Dunn and Rios. It is not logical to call for the head of a manager who's kept his team competing despite the fact that two of his main pieces were anchors all year. Additionally, blaming Ozzie for keeping them in the lineup shows very little understanding of the contract structure in baseball. Or, at the very least, an under-appreciation to the commitment the team has made to those players over the next several years. However you slice it, it's certainly not rational blame the manager. But he's not popular with a lot of these same people anyway; people who've called for his head regarding off the field incidents with his kids and such. And point every opportunity to blame him when things go bad, claiming he's "lost the clubhouse". Bull****. He hasn't lost the clubhouse, these guys fought on despite missing key elements to their formula all year. They fought for Ozzie.

*****. :rolleyes:

JB98
09-05-2011, 11:40 PM
The reason we aren't winning the division is that the team was built around guys like Dunn and Rios. It is not logical to call for the head of a manager who's kept his team competing despite the fact that two of his main pieces were anchors all year. Additionally, blaming Ozzie for keeping them in the lineup shows very little understanding of the contract structure in baseball. Or, at the very least, an under-appreciation to the commitment the team has made to those players over the next several years. However you slice it, it's certainly not rational blame the manager. But he's not popular with a lot of these same people anyway; people who've called for his head regarding off the field incidents with his kids and such. And point every opportunity to blame him when things go bad, claiming he's "lost the clubhouse". Bull****. He hasn't lost the clubhouse, these guys fought on despite missing key elements to their formula all year. They fought for Ozzie.

"The players fought for Ozzie" is just as big a line of bull**** as "Ozzie has lost the clubhouse." Anyone can make that argument. Nobody has a shred of evidence to back up either claim.

You don't know what the players actually think of Ozzie. I can only judge him on his results, and those haven't been acceptable with me.

Even if the players are "fighting for Ozzie," there are other managers out there who players will fight for. The fact that this team "didn't give up" or whatever does not make Ozzie irreplaceable.

Results are more important than intentions.

Lip Man 1
09-05-2011, 11:57 PM
The World Series was won almost six complete seasons ago.

Fair or unfair, right or wrong this is a results business in the here and now....not two years ago, not four years ago, not six years ago.

And the results have barely been above absolute mediocrity in the ensuing six years.

That's all anybody, either an Ozzie supporter or an Ozzie detractor needs to know.

Couple that with the fact that Ozzie and Kenny and Greg Walker apparently do not get along and it's simply amazing how this team the past few years has even been able to function enough to have a winning season in 2010.

There a Biblical saying as I recall, "a house divided against itself can not stand..."

Something to think about in this case no?

Lip

blandman
09-06-2011, 01:03 AM
"The players fought for Ozzie" is just as big a line of bull**** as "Ozzie has lost the clubhouse." Anyone can make that argument. Nobody has a shred of evidence to back up either claim.

You don't know what the players actually think of Ozzie. I can only judge him on his results, and those haven't been acceptable with me.

Even if the players are "fighting for Ozzie," there are other managers out there who players will fight for. The fact that this team "didn't give up" or whatever does not make Ozzie irreplaceable.

Results are more important than intentions.

The results were stellar, considering. This isn't a vacuum, where you can just say "if we don't win the division, or the world series, or 90 games, etc. then it's a failure." This team endured some serious ****ing extenuating circumstances in Rios and Dunn. That people glance over that and paint a picture of failure is beyond unfair. At least in terms of people who have NO CONTROL over that, like Ozzie. That this team even competed under those circumstances is a ****ing miracle. The ONLY reason someone wouldn't acknowledge that is if they have an ax to grind. Those people deserve to be called out for that. It doesn't matter that it's the majority around here. The majority is in the wrong.

blandman
09-06-2011, 01:08 AM
The World Series was won almost six complete seasons ago.

Fair or unfair, right or wrong this is a results business in the here and now....not two years ago, not four years ago, not six years ago.

And the results have barely been above absolute mediocrity in the ensuing six years.

That's all anybody, either an Ozzie supporter or an Ozzie detractor needs to know.

Couple that with the fact that Ozzie and Kenny and Greg Walker apparently do not get along and it's simply amazing how this team the past few years has even been able to function enough to have a winning season in 2010.

There a Biblical saying as I recall, "a house divided against itself can not stand..."

Something to think about in this case no?

Lip

Are they? We're 26 games over .500 since the world series, and that's enduring a singular 72 win season in '07. Without '07? 44 games over. I don't see anything "mediocre" about that.

And while the Ozzie detractors want to call for his head this year, we're over .500 with a club that shouldn't be (given performance of two players that were highly counted on this season).

doublem23
09-06-2011, 01:13 AM
The results were stellar, considering. This isn't a vacuum, where you can just say "if we don't win the division, or the world series, or 90 games, etc. then it's a failure." This team endured some serious ****ing extenuating circumstances in Rios and Dunn. That people glance over that and paint a picture of failure is beyond unfair. At least in terms of people who have NO CONTROL over that, like Ozzie. That this team even competed under those circumstances is a ****ing miracle. The ONLY reason someone wouldn't acknowledge that is if they have an ax to grind. Those people deserve to be called out for that. It doesn't matter that it's the majority around here. The majority is in the wrong.

And that is BS. Look all over the league, every team has had to face adversity... The Yankees and Phillies got 1/2 seasons from A-Rod and Chase Utley respectively. Carl Crawford has been a disaster for the Red Sox. All these teams have figured out ways to win, now sure, they have more talent than the Sox, but we're still barely treading water in a division populated with crap teams (DET, CLE) and crappier teams (MIN, KC). There's no reason the Sox shouldn't be the ones preparing for the ALDS instead of prepping their 15,000 sq. ft. homes in Scottsdale.

JB is right, none of us have any actual insight to the Sox's locker room, all we can evaluate is the end result on the field. If what the Sox have given the last few years is good enough for you, god bless you, I appreciate your honesty and respect that opinion though I disagree with it. I personally don't think this team has been very competitive since 2006 except for the few years the division plays down to our level.

Add that to just the ridiculous and embarrassing sideshow that has existed here the last few years and I don't think it's difficult to see why the majority might feel the need for the organization to move on. "Ozzie being Ozzie" is kind of funny when his team is good. It gets old when we're not.

blandman
09-06-2011, 01:19 AM
And that is BS. Look all over the league, every team has had to face adversity... The Yankees and Phillies got 1/2 seasons from A-Rod and Chase Utley respectively. Carl Crawford has been a disaster for the Red Sox. All these teams have figured out ways to win, now sure, they have more talent than the Sox, but we're still barely treading water in a division populated with crap teams (DET, CLE) and crappier teams (MIN, KC). There's no reason the Sox shouldn't be the ones preparing for the ALDS instead of prepping their 15,000 sq. ft. homes in Scottsdale.

JB is right, none of us have any actual insight to the Sox's locker room, all we can evaluate is the end result on the field. If what the Sox have given the last few years is good enough for you, god bless you, I appreciate your honesty and respect that opinion though I disagree with it. I personally don't think this team has been very competitive since 2006 except for the few years the division plays down to our level.

Add that to just the ridiculous and embarrassing sideshow that has existed here the last few years and I don't think it's difficult to see why the majority might feel the need for the organization to move on. "Ozzie being Ozzie" is kind of funny when his team is good. It gets old when we're not.

There's a HUGE difference between an injury keeping a guy out and being anchored by two contracts on a team built around those two players specifically. Only the Crawford comparison makes sense, but it isn't nearly the same thing because of all the other incredibly expensive pieces on the Red Sox. They didn't need Crawford to be one of the best lineups in baseball. Our lineup required Dunn and Rios to be run producers.

But keep acting like it's the same thing, that it's somehow Ozzie's fault, and that the "sideshow" you're referring to isn't really what this is about.

doublem23
09-06-2011, 01:34 AM
There's a HUGE difference between an injury keeping a guy out and being anchored by two contracts on a team built around those two players specifically. Only the Crawford comparison makes sense, but it isn't nearly the same thing because of all the other incredibly expensive pieces on the Red Sox. They didn't need Crawford to be one of the best lineups in baseball. Our lineup required Dunn and Rios to be run producers.

But keep acting like it's the same thing, that it's somehow Ozzie's fault, and that the "sideshow" you're referring to isn't really what this is about.

First, you're right, this isn't about the sideshow. It's about winning, something the Sox haven't done a lot of lately. Six years since the World Series now and the Sox have 1 90-win season, 1 playoff appearance, and 1 postseason win. These are essentially the same numbers the Sox put up in Jerry Manuel's entire 6-year run here. 1 90-win season. 1 playoff appearance. Of course, 0 playoff wins. From 2006-present... the past six seasons, the Sox have a regular season winning percentage of .514. Manuel's winning percentage in 6 years here... .515. And people talk about Manuel like he's the biggest dope in the world, and yet here we are, basically living through the Jerry Manuel era, Part II.

Second, injuries, underperformance, whatever you want to categorize it as I don't care. Every team faces hardships. Have the Sox's been harder than most? Maybe. But the Yankees replaced A-Rod with Eric Chavez and the Phillies replaced Chase Utley with Pete Orr and Wilson Valdez. Whatever you want to spin it as, these are huge blows, and yet both these teams are easily on their way to 90-100 maybe 100+ win seasons in divisions that are much more stacked than ours.

I feel I have been plenty patient with Ozzie. But I'm just tired of all of it. I'm tired of his kids. I'm tired of the way we always start slow. I'm tired of the Walkerball. I'm tired of the way he gets so incredibly defensive everytime someone questions him. I'm tired of Adam Dunn batting 4th. You're right, maybe not all of that is on-the-field stuff, maybe I just don't like Ozzie very much. But I was always willing to go along with it when the results were worth it. They haven't been, in my personal opinion, in some time.

blandman
09-06-2011, 01:40 AM
First, you're right, this isn't about the sideshow. It's about winning, something the Sox haven't done a lot of lately. Six years since the World Series now and the Sox have 1 90-win season, 1 playoff appearance, and 1 postseason win. These are essentially the same numbers the Sox put up in Jerry Manuel's entire 6-year run here. 1 90-win season. 1 playoff appearance. Of course, 0 playoff wins. From 2006-present... the past six seasons, the Sox have a regular season winning percentage of .514. Manuel's winning percentage in 6 years here... .515. And people talk about Manuel like he's the biggest dope in the world, and yet here we are, basically living through the Jerry Manuel era, Part II.

Second, injuries, underperformance, whatever you want to categorize it as I don't care. Every team faces hardships. Have the Sox's been harder than most? Maybe. But the Yankees replaced A-Rod with Eric Chavez and the Phillies replaced Chase Utley with Pete Orr and Wilson Valdez. Whatever you want to spin it as, these are huge blows, and yet both these teams are easily on their way to 90-100 maybe 100+ win seasons in divisions that are much more stacked than ours.

I feel I have been plenty patient with Ozzie. But I'm just tired of all of it. I'm tired of his kids. I'm tired of the way we always start slow. I'm tired of the Walkerball. I'm tired of the way he gets so incredibly defensive everytime someone questions him. I'm tired of Adam Dunn batting 4th. You're right, maybe not all of that is on-the-field stuff, maybe I just don't like Ozzie very much. But I was always willing to go along with it when the results were worth it. They haven't been, in my personal opinion, in some time.

You are still failing to see the point.

Ozzie couldn't replace Dunn and Rios with Orr and Valdez. He had to keep trotting out Dunn and Rios. If you don't understand why that is...scratch that. I know you know what that is. And the same for why Dunn had to bat cleanup so many times early in the season. They're both under contract for a ton of money, for a lot of years, on a team that doesn't spend a ton of money on individuals lightly. Not doing those things, even if they wouldn't get you fired by the GM outright...it would certainly piss off royally the guy who's cutting the checks.

Believe me, I know we'd probably have had a better season DH'ing Dayan and playing De Aza in center instead of what Dunn and Rios provided. But you simply can't do that. And you can't blame Ozzie when his hands were tied.

As for recent history, conveniently forgetting our two best years (which is not fair, but for arguments sake okay)...two of the last three years we've had 88 wins or more. That's a far cry from the Manuel years.

JB98
09-06-2011, 01:49 AM
The results were stellar, considering. This isn't a vacuum, where you can just say "if we don't win the division, or the world series, or 90 games, etc. then it's a failure." This team endured some serious ****ing extenuating circumstances in Rios and Dunn. That people glance over that and paint a picture of failure is beyond unfair. At least in terms of people who have NO CONTROL over that, like Ozzie. That this team even competed under those circumstances is a ****ing miracle. The ONLY reason someone wouldn't acknowledge that is if they have an ax to grind. Those people deserve to be called out for that. It doesn't matter that it's the majority around here. The majority is in the wrong.

The team had other options for CF and DH and failed to use them until it was too late.

I don't think anyone is glancing over the failures of Dunn and Rios. Have you not heard the boos both players have received this year? People have been screaming for those guys to be benched all season. I think everyone is quite aware those two have fallen off a cliff.

Make any excuse you want. Payroll and ticket prices are up. Winning percentage and attendance are down. That's not a good combination and it's time to put everything under evaluation.

Ozzie himself has said on several occasions that his job is to win the division. By his own standards, he hasn't done his job in three years. So he doesn't deserve that contract extension he wants.

blandman
09-06-2011, 02:09 AM
The team had other options for CF and DH and failed to use them until it was too late.

I don't think anyone is glancing over the failures of Dunn and Rios. Have you not heard the boos both players have received this year? People have been screaming for those guys to be benched all season. I think everyone is quite aware those two have fallen off a cliff.

Make any excuse you want. Payroll and ticket prices are up. Winning percentage and attendance are down. That's not a good combination and it's time to put everything under evaluation.

Ozzie himself has said on several occasions that his job is to win the division. By his own standards, he hasn't done his job in three years. So he doesn't deserve that contract extension he wants.

You're seeing what you want to see instead of reality.

Seriously, if you're going to argue that they should have been benched the bulk of the year, there's nothing to talk about. And no, I won't agree to disagree. You're flat out wrong. It's not something that could have ever occurred, and to argue so is either ignorance of the situation or bias against those involved, neither of which would be very productive having a discussion about.

captain54
09-06-2011, 02:13 AM
Are they? We're 26 games over .500 since the world series, and that's enduring a singular 72 win season in '07. Without '07? 44 games over. I don't see anything "mediocre" about that.

.

The White Sox are 430 - 431 from mid 06', to the present..

last half of 06' - 8 under
07' - 18 under
08' - 14 over
09' - 4 under
10' - 14 over
11' so far - 1 over

5 1/2 years.. a lot of games.. the overall verdict? mediocre

Boondock Saint
09-06-2011, 02:21 AM
You're seeing what you want to see instead of reality.

Seriously, if you're going to argue that they should have been benched the bulk of the year, there's nothing to talk about. And no, I won't agree to disagree. You're flat out wrong. It's not something that could have ever occurred, and to argue so is either ignorance of the situation or bias against those involved, neither of which would be very productive having a discussion about.

This is bull****, pure and simple. Dunn and Rios had P-L-E-N-T-Y of time to show something of value to the team, and did very little of that. That warrants bench time, or at the very least, time at the bottom of the order. So you want to believe that it's not possible to bench them because of their paycheck? Fine, go ahead, I can't stop you. But there is nothing that demands that Ozzie ****s the entire team day in and day out by batting them back-to-back, in the middle of the lineup and/or flanking Konerko in the lineup, making for the easiest "do we pitch around this guy?" decision in history.

blandman
09-06-2011, 02:22 AM
The White Sox are 430 - 431 from mid 06', to the present..

Oh, is that where we're cutting it off now?

Midseason six years ago. You see, some people want to just do the last few years to prove there point. Oh, and then there's the bunch that will just pick on the shortcomings against the Tigers in the last three starts.

It's all mularky. You can't look at pieces. The whole picture is pretty damn good. The recent history? Pretty damn good too (88 wins in two of the last three years).

But between summer '06 and the end of the '07 season we were terrible!

Yeah. Well, if we're fudging the numbers, I'm taking that out. What does that make us, like 100 games over .500 in Ozzie's tenure? That's pretty good!

Fudge the numbers all you want. It doesn't change the reality of the situation. We've been good since Ozzie's been here, other than a 1.5 year drought.

blandman
09-06-2011, 02:25 AM
This is bull****, pure and simple. Dunn and Rios had P-L-E-N-T-Y of time to show something of value to the team, and did very little of that. That warrants bench time, or at the very least, time at the bottom of the order. So you want to believe that it's not possible to bench them because of their paycheck? Fine, go ahead, I can't stop you. But there is nothing that demands that Ozzie ****s the entire team day in and day out by batting them back-to-back, in the middle of the lineup and/or flanking Konerko in the lineup, making for the easiest "do we pitch around this guy?" decision in history.

Oh, you mean other than the guy paying them to do that, right?

Seriously, you're way off base here. Managers don't have the kind of power you think they do. Not if they want to keep their jobs. Remember when things changed? Remember HOW they changed? An announcement was made from above. This was an ORGANIZATIONAL decision, not a MANAGERIAL one. Plain and simple.

Boondock Saint
09-06-2011, 02:32 AM
Oh, you mean other than the guy paying them to do that, right?

Seriously, you're way off base here. Managers don't have the kind of power you think they do. Not if they want to keep their jobs. Remember when things changed? Remember HOW they changed? An announcement was made from above. This was an ORGANIZATIONAL decision, not a MANAGERIAL one. Plain and simple.

You want to show me where KW or JR was quoted as saying it was his decision to force Ozzie to bat Rios and Dunn in the middle of the order instead of just making bull**** insinuations?

blandman
09-06-2011, 02:37 AM
You want to show me where KW or JR was quoted as saying it was his decision to force Ozzie to bat Rios and Dunn in the middle of the order instead of just making bull**** insinuations?

So...when Kenny had to come out and say people were being benched, you didn't take that as meaning he was the reason they were in the lineup. Or maybe the big boss was?

Apparanently, I am giving you too much credit.

When Kenny came out and said people would be benched, it's because up until that point the manager didn't have permission to throw $100 million on the bench for the next four years.

If you need any more help understanding things just ask. I'm here to help.

doublem23
09-06-2011, 02:49 AM
It's all mularky. You can't look at pieces. The whole picture is pretty damn good. The recent history? Pretty damn good too (88 wins in two of the last three years).


This is obviously semantics, but 88 wins is not "pretty damn good." That number has won a division only 3 times in the AL the past 11 years; the East in 2000 and the Central in 2008 and 2009. That's a good year, but if that's the bar your setting, that's how you win the division one time in the last six seasons, assuming a miracle in 2011 will not happen.

You're right in that Dunn and Rios are getting paid too much to be benched after their first 0-4 game, but I'm sorry, I disagree that Ozzie had to keep shoving them in the middle of the lineup everyday for almost the entire season. If those orders really came from above, well, that's too bad, Ozzie can take solace in his millions of dollars, his World Series ring, and hopefully his new home on a beach in Miami.

doublem23
09-06-2011, 02:51 AM
So...when Kenny had to come out and say people were being benched, you didn't take that as meaning he was the reason they were in the lineup. Or maybe the big boss was?

Apparanently, I am giving you too much credit.

When Kenny came out and said people would be benched, it's because up until that point the manager didn't have permission to throw $100 million on the bench for the next four years.

If you need any more help understanding things just ask. I'm here to help.

You want to politely discuss this topic with other posters, please go ahead. If you want to start talking down to people like your opinion is fact and dissent is a sign of stupidity, you're going to find yourself with two banned usernames.

blandman
09-06-2011, 02:52 AM
This is obviously semantics, but 88 wins is not "pretty damn good." That number has won a division only 3 times in the AL the past 11 years; the East in 2000 and the Central in 2008 and 2009. That's a good year, but if that's the bar your setting, that's how you win the division one time in the last six seasons, assuming a miracle in 2011 will not happen.

You're right in that Dunn and Rios are getting paid too much to be benched after their first 0-4 game, but I'm sorry, I disagree that Ozzie had to keep shoving them in the middle of the lineup everyday for almost the entire season. If those orders really came from above, well, that's too bad, Ozzie can take solace in his millions of dollars, his World Series ring, and hopefully his new home on a beach in Miami.

When Ozzie's back next year, that will be transparent.

blandman
09-06-2011, 02:55 AM
You want to politely discuss this topic with other posters, please go ahead. If you want to start talking down to people like your opinion is fact and dissent is a sign of stupidity, you're going to find yourself with two banned usernames.

Funny you're threatening me publicly, and not the guy who first said my posts were bull**** insinuations.

Boondock Saint
09-06-2011, 02:58 AM
So...when Kenny had to come out and say people were being benched, you didn't take that as meaning he was the reason they were in the lineup. Or maybe the big boss was?

Apparanently, I am giving you too much credit.

When Kenny came out and said people would be benched, it's because up until that point the manager didn't have permission to throw $100 million on the bench for the next four years.

If you need any more help understanding things just ask. I'm here to help.

Kenny came out and said that people would be benched because the people who deserved benchings had inexplicably not gotten them yet, not because he was making it public that it was now okay for his manager to do so. Even then, it took a while to see those benchings take place. And even still, you see Ozzie sticking with his "veterans before guys who are producing" philosophy. AJ just came back from a broken wrist, and was immediately put in the clean up spot behind Konerko in his first game back, and every game since for that matter. AJ isn't a clean up hitter in general, let alone the best option for it on the team. But since Flowers, De Aza and Viciedo are all young guys, and there aren't any other veterans to put in those precious RBI spots, the clean up position defaults to him. But hey, he's got two hits, a single RBI and seven runners left stranded with two outs in those four games, so let's just stick with what isn't working, right?

blandman
09-06-2011, 03:00 AM
Kenny came out and said that people would be benched because the people who deserved benchings had inexplicably not gotten them yet, not because he was making it public that it was now okay for his manager to do so. Even then, it took a while to see those benchings take place. And even still, you see Ozzie sticking with his "veterans before guys who are producing" philosophy. AJ just came back from a broken wrist, and was immediately put in the clean up spot behind Konerko in his first game back, and every game since for that matter. AJ isn't a clean up hitter in general, let alone the best option for it on the team. But since Flowers, De Aza and Viciedo are all young guys, and there aren't any other veterans to put in those precious RBI spots, the clean up position defaults to him. But hey, he's got two hits, a single RBI and seven runners left stranded with two outs in those four games, so let's just stick with what isn't working, right?

Kenny is Ozzie's boss. If he wanted something done, he'd just plain tell Ozzie to do it.

Kenny's move was a motivational technique. Because they (the organization) were still trying to salvage the pair.

Boondock Saint
09-06-2011, 03:12 AM
Kenny is Ozzie's boss. If he wanted something done, he'd just plain tell Ozzie to do it.

Kenny's move was a motivational technique. Because they (the organization) were still trying to salvage the pair.

Isn't motivating players the job of the manager? Why is that falling on the shoulders of the GM?

captain54
09-06-2011, 04:40 AM
Midseason six years ago. You see, some people want to just do the last few years to prove there point. Oh, and then there's the bunch that will just pick on the shortcomings against the Tigers in the last three starts.

Fudge the numbers all you want. It doesn't change the reality of the situation. We've been good since Ozzie's been here, other than a 1.5 year drought.
[/COLOR]

Midseason 06' isn't some arbitrary number for stats sake. Its the beginning of this trend of mediocrity under the Ozzie regime.. and about 75% of his regime, a good chunk of games.

Let's face it, under the Ozzie regime there has been one great year out of 8.. 4 over .500 seasons and 3 under .500 seasons, with 1 just barely over .500 and TBD... Also, out of the 8 seasons, only 2 with over .500 2nd halves.. 05' and 10' .. 8 over and 5 over respectively

2 playoff appearances in 8 years? If you compare it to the Royals, Orioles, Pirates, Nationals...I guess that's pretty good... If you compare it to Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Phillies... not so good..

Ozzie's teams are notoriously weak 2nd half teams, and the last two years notorious slow starters. It all adds up to mediocrity and inconsistency.. For quite a while now.

Frater Perdurabo
09-06-2011, 07:21 AM
Midseason 06' isn't some arbitrary number for stats sake. Its the beginning of this trend of mediocrity under the Ozzie regime.. and about 75% of his regime, a good chunk of games.

Let's face it, under the Ozzie regime there has been one great year out of 8.. 4 over .500 seasons and 3 under .500 seasons, with 1 just barely over .500 and TBD... Also, out of the 8 seasons, only 2 with over .500 2nd halves.. 05' and 10' .. 8 over and 5 over respectively...

Ozzie's teams are notoriously weak 2nd half teams, and the last two years notorious slow starters. It all adds up to mediocrity and inconsistency.. For quite a while now.

If you really want to break it down, consider who it is we're beating. I am on my phone, so I don't have exact numbers, but our record against the ALC is quite poor, and we beat up on the NL. It's not coincidence that the Sox are good in June and early July, and disappointing the rest of the year.

asindc
09-06-2011, 10:06 AM
Midseason 06' isn't some arbitrary number for stats sake. Its the beginning of this trend of mediocrity under the Ozzie regime.. and about 75% of his regime, a good chunk of games.

Let's face it, under the Ozzie regime there has been one great year out of 8.. 4 over .500 seasons and 3 under .500 seasons, with 1 just barely over .500 and TBD... Also, out of the 8 seasons, only 2 with over .500 2nd halves.. 05' and 10' .. 8 over and 5 over respectively

2 playoff appearances in 8 years? If you compare it to the Royals, Orioles, Pirates, Nationals...I guess that's pretty good... If you compare it to Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Phillies... not so good..

Ozzie's teams are notoriously weak 2nd half teams, and the last two years notorious slow starters. It all adds up to mediocrity and inconsistency.. For quite a while now.

While I think your general point has merit, the 8-season record is also "pretty good" when compared to:

Detroit (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Texas (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Oakland (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
NYM (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Colorado (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Arizona (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Cincy (1 playoff, no WS wins);
San Diego (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Houston (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Cleveland (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Seattle (no playoffs);
Milwaukee (1 playoffs, no WS wins);
Atlanta (4 playoffs, no WS wins);
Minny (5 playoffs, no WS wins, only 2 playoff game wins, none since 2004);
LAAAAA (5 playoffs, no WS wins);
Cubs (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Florida (1 playoff, 1 WS Win);
LAD (4 playoffs, no WS wins);
San Fran. (2 playoffs, 1 WS win).

I didn't mention Toronto and Tampa because it is tough to evaluate those teams because of having to play in the AL East. Bottom line, if you compare all the other 26 teams (not just the Sox) against NYY, Boston, St. Louis, and Philly, then you will see that their records are "not so good" in comparison. Of course Detroit, Arizona, Texas, and Milwaukee have a chance to match Ozzie's 8-season record this year, and LAAAA, Atlanta, and San Francisco have a chance to surpass it.

Now, I'm sure someone's knee will jerk upon reading everything above and take it as a defense of Ozzie. I'm just simply stating the facts, that's all. Green grass and all that, you know. By the way, a very, very quick research of my recent posts will indicate my stance on Ozzie returning next year.

russ99
09-06-2011, 11:13 AM
This is bull****, pure and simple. Dunn and Rios had P-L-E-N-T-Y of time to show something of value to the team, and did very little of that. That warrants bench time, or at the very least, time at the bottom of the order. So you want to believe that it's not possible to bench them because of their paycheck? Fine, go ahead, I can't stop you. But there is nothing that demands that Ozzie ****s the entire team day in and day out by batting them back-to-back, in the middle of the lineup and/or flanking Konerko in the lineup, making for the easiest "do we pitch around this guy?" decision in history.

If Ozzie didn't try every managerial trick in the book to get these guys going, maybe you'd have a point.

Also, look at the lineups the last month. Rarely has he hit them back to back, and Dunn has effectively been benched for three weeks after the last benching didn't work.

So what are you complaining about? Ozzie tried by every means at his disposal to get them going, and it didn't work, and then he reduced their playing time. Rios has played more than Dunn since then because of the lack of players who can handle CF defensively.

As for the lineup whining, sure, let's put a few rookies in those spots too, but you do realize essentially the "do we pitch around this guy?" decision still applies.

JB98
09-06-2011, 01:30 PM
You're seeing what you want to see instead of reality.

Seriously, if you're going to argue that they should have been benched the bulk of the year, there's nothing to talk about. And no, I won't agree to disagree. You're flat out wrong. It's not something that could have ever occurred, and to argue so is either ignorance of the situation or bias against those involved, neither of which would be very productive having a discussion about.

Go back and read what I actually posted and try again. Thanks.

captain54
09-06-2011, 01:43 PM
While I think your general point has merit, the 8-season record is also "pretty good" when compared to:

Detroit (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Texas (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Oakland (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
NYM (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Colorado (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Arizona (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Cincy (1 playoff, no WS wins);
San Diego (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Houston (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Cleveland (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Seattle (no playoffs);
Milwaukee (1 playoffs, no WS wins);
Atlanta (4 playoffs, no WS wins);
Minny (5 playoffs, no WS wins, only 2 playoff game wins, none since 2004);
LAAAAA (5 playoffs, no WS wins);
Cubs (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Florida (1 playoff, 1 WS Win);
LAD (4 playoffs, no WS wins);
San Fran. (2 playoffs, 1 WS win).

.

Another way to look at your stats is that the majority of those teams in your list are smaller market clubs, with lower payrolls. The only large market club with a higher payroll and considerably less postseason success rate than the Sox is the Mets.

Also, when comparing so many teams to the Sox postseason record under Ozzie, you're not taking into account the unbalanced schedule and the competition each team faced to get there.

The $64.000 question will always remain... with the fact that the WSox have resources, a loyal fan base, major media/broadcast market at their disposal, why are they not in the same category as the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Cardinals, and one of the elite teams in MLB? The White Sox have shuffled a ton of players in and out during the 5 1/2 yrs of .500 baseball that Ozzie has held reign over, and any reasonable person who have to question the results.

dickallen15
09-06-2011, 02:01 PM
If Ozzie didn't try every managerial trick in the book to get these guys going, maybe you'd have a point.

Also, look at the lineups the last month. Rarely has he hit them back to back, and Dunn has effectively been benched for three weeks after the last benching didn't work.

So what are you complaining about? Ozzie tried by every means at his disposal to get them going, and it didn't work, and then he reduced their playing time. Rios has played more than Dunn since then because of the lack of players who can handle CF defensively.

As for the lineup whining, sure, let's put a few rookies in those spots too, but you do realize essentially the "do we pitch around this guy?" decision still applies.

Why did it take so long for Ozzie to get Dunn down in the line up and then out? Why?

asindc
09-06-2011, 02:15 PM
Another way to look at your stats is that the majority of those teams in your list are smaller market clubs, with lower payrolls. The only large market club with a higher payroll and considerably less postseason success rate than the Sox is the Mets.

Also, when comparing so many teams to the Sox postseason record under Ozzie, you're not taking into account the unbalanced schedule and the competition each team faced to get there.

The $64.000 question will always remain... with the fact that the WSox have resources, a loyal fan base, major media/broadcast market at their disposal, why are they not in the same category as the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Cardinals, and one of the elite teams in MLB? The White Sox have shuffled a ton of players in and out during the 5 1/2 yrs of .500 baseball that Ozzie has held reign over, and any reasonable person who have to question the results.

During Ozzie's tenure, neither the NYM, LAAAAAAA, the LAD, nor the Cubs have even played in the WS, let alone won it. (Houston played in it once, and we know how that turned out. Detroit also qualifies as a major market team by your criteria since it has deep pockets from a committed owner, and a loyal fan base and media market that covers the entire state of Michigan and most of Northwest Ohio.) Those teams have also shuffled a lot of players in and out over the past 5.5 years, so the fans of those teams probably should ask the same question. By the way, I would like to have seen how many times the Sox would have made the playoffs during the past decade if it had the chance to play in the same division with Texas (before 2009), Oakland, and Seattle.

doublem23
09-06-2011, 02:22 PM
By the way, I would like to have seen how many times the Sox would have made the playoffs during the past decade if it had the chance to play in the same division with Texas (before 2009), Oakland, and Seattle.

We'd have won the AL West in 2000 and 2005, but would not have won in 2008, so we'd actually be worse off.

asindc
09-06-2011, 02:26 PM
Why did it take so long for Ozzie to get Dunn down in the line up and then out? Why?

This is the biggest complaint I have against Ozzie this year. An integrated question is why was he batting 3rd for the first three months of the year? Dunn does not profile as a #3 hitter on any MLB team, let alone one with Konerko and TCQ in the lineup.

asindc
09-06-2011, 02:30 PM
We'd have won the AL West in 2000 and 2005, but would not have won in 2008, so we'd actually be worse off.

If you just transfer records that would be true, of course, but my point is that the Sox would have been playing Texas, Oakland, and Seattle in 2008 instead of Minny, Detroit, Cleveland, and KC. Even if you offset Seattle with KC, I would have preferred to play Texas and Oakland 18-20 times a season than Minny and Detroit and/or Cleveland (depending which one got their act together for a particular season) since 2000.

JB98
09-06-2011, 02:36 PM
I'm not sure why it matters how the Sox performance compares to the Mets, Dodgers, Angels or Cubs.

I'm looking more at their performance in comparison to the Twins and Tigers, and to a lesser extent, the Indians. None of these teams are juggernauts by any stretch of the imagination, but the Sox are looking at missing the playoffs for the fifth time in six years.

That's disappointing given the resources the club has in comparison to other teams in the division.

As far as the players rotating in and out all the time, that's more a KW issue than an OG issue. Our farm system blows and it has for some time. The Sox haven't been able to plug as many gaps as you would like by using homegrown, low-salaried players. Essentially, they have to hire a team of mercenaries every year. It's worked a couple times, but it's hard to have success that way year in and year out.

You can't put all of the roster construction issues on OG's plate. I think he has some influence (Thome, cough, cough), but technically that's not his department. His management of the roster this year, however, leaves a lot to be desired. Yeah, some things haven't worked out as expected with Dunn and Rios falling off a cliff. However, it is the manager's job to manage those situations and make the appropriate adjustments for the good of the club. That's why they call him "the manager."

And it isn't like all the players have failed OG. Konerko has provided another solid, if not outstanding, season. Everyone in the rotation has done a good job except for Peavy. After a rough start, the bullpen has been strong since mid-May. We've got four arms at the back end that are the envy of the league.

It's true that Dunn and Rios have made this regime look pretty bad this year. But if you're gonna point that out, you also have to allow there are some other players on this roster who have made the GM and the manager look pretty good.

kittle42
09-06-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm not sure why it matters how the Sox performance compares to the Mets, Dodgers, Angels or Cubs.

I'm looking more at their performance in comparison to the Twins and Tigers, and to a lesser extent, the Indians. None of these teams are juggernauts by any stretch of the imagination, but the Sox are looking at missing the playoffs for the fifth time in six years.

That's disappointing given the resources the club has in comparison to other teams in the division.

As far as the players rotating in and out all the time, that's more a KW issue than an OG issue. Our farm system blows and it has for some time. The Sox haven't been able to plug as many gaps as you would like by using homegrown, low-salaried players. Essentially, they have to hire a team of mercenaries every year. It's worked a couple times, but it's hard to have success that way year in and year out.

You can't put all of the roster construction issues on OG's plate. I think he has some influence (Thome, cough, cough), but technically that's not his department. His management of the roster this year, however, leaves a lot to be desired. Yeah, some things haven't worked out as expected with Dunn and Rios falling off a cliff. However, it is the manager's job to manage those situations and make the appropriate adjustments for the good of the club. That's why they call him "the manager."

And it isn't like all the players have failed OG. Konerko has provided another solid, if not outstanding, season. Everyone in the rotation has done a good job except for Peavy. After a rough start, the bullpen has been strong since mid-May. We've got four arms at the back end that are the envy of the league.

It's true that Dunn and Rios have made this regime look pretty bad this year. But if you're gonna point that out, you also have to allow there are some other players on this roster who have made the GM and the manager look pretty good.

Well-stated.

enurb
09-06-2011, 02:51 PM
We win the division if Dunn and Rios contribute. They did not; they are to blame. So, my wishes are:

Walker goes (quick so he doesn't talk to Viciedo)
Dunn retires (if he returns and sucks, he gets booed into oblivion until he retires -- he can't possibly be enjoying this and he's already loaded)
Rios improves (assuming we can't trade him which we can't)
Beckham spends off-season in the cages, away from Walker

asindc
09-06-2011, 02:53 PM
I'm not sure why it matters how the Sox performance compares to the Mets, Dodgers, Angels or Cubs.

I'm looking more at their performance in comparison to the Twins and Tigers, and to a lesser extent, the Indians. None of these teams are juggernauts by any stretch of the imagination, but the Sox are looking at missing the playoffs for the fifth time in six years.

That's disappointing given the resources the club has in comparison to other teams in the division.

As far as the players rotating in and out all the time, that's more a KW issue than an OG issue. Our farm system blows and it has for some time. The Sox haven't been able to plug as many gaps as you would like by using homegrown, low-salaried players. Essentially, they have to hire a team of mercenaries every year. It's worked a couple times, but it's hard to have success that way year in and year out.

You can't put all of the roster construction issues on OG's plate. I think he has some influence (Thome, cough, cough), but technically that's not his department. His management of the roster this year, however, leaves a lot to be desired. Yeah, some things haven't worked out as expected with Dunn and Rios falling off a cliff. However, it is the manager's job to manage those situations and make the appropriate adjustments for the good of the club. That's why they call him "the manager."

And it isn't like all the players have failed OG. Konerko has provided another solid, if not outstanding, season. Everyone in the rotation has done a good job except for Peavy. After a rough start, the bullpen has been strong since mid-May. We've got four arms at the back end that are the envy of the league.

It's true that Dunn and Rios have made this regime look pretty bad this year. But if you're gonna point that out, you also have to allow there are some other players on this roster who have made the GM and the manager look pretty good.

I was just responding to another poster who made that comparison, but since you ask, it is worth discussing in this sense: If so many teams with similar resources, fan bases, and media exposure cannot produce better success than what we have enjoyed during Ozzie's tenure, is that also an indictment of the management of those teams or is it more par for the course, since the majority of MLB teams would trade our record since the start of 2004 with us in a heartbeat? That is not to suggest that we have no right to expect more and that given what we have to work with we should not have gotten more, just a suggestion that it is difficult to achieve. If we can get better management that will give us a better chance to achieve greater success, I'm all for it. (Just as a stated above, a very quick perusal of my recent posts should indicate where I stand on the "Should Ozzie stay or go" question.)

russ99
09-06-2011, 03:20 PM
This is the biggest complaint I have against Ozzie this year. An integrated question is why was he batting 3rd for the first three months of the year? Dunn does not profile as a #3 hitter on any MLB team, let alone one with Konerko and TCQ in the lineup.

We've been there already.

Dye 2008, Konerko 2009 and A.J. 2010 all pulled out of bad slumps to have very solid second halves when Ozzie was patient with them.

The first three months Dunn batted third because of his stellar career OBP before this season. Also, it was yet unknown if recovering from his surgery was the reasons for his struggles or if he was not going to be the player they signed this season.

Dunn is flat out an anomaly this year. I guess it's the manager's fault not to recognize that sooner and stop being patient with him, but I can understand why he stuck with it since that plan worked with other veteran players.

kittle42
09-06-2011, 03:21 PM
Dunn retires (if he returns and sucks, he gets booed into oblivion until he retires -- he can't possibly be enjoying this and he's already loaded)

Is this going to be the newest unrealistic Dunn-related thing, following the whole faux-DL/send him to the minors thing the past few months?

asindc
09-06-2011, 03:23 PM
We've been there already.

Dye 2008, Konerko 2009 and A.J. 2010 all pulled out of bad slumps to have very solid second halves when Ozzie was patient with them.

The first three months Dunn batted third because of his stellar career OBP before this season.

Dunn is flat out an anomaly this year. I guess it's the manager's fault not to recognize that sooner and stop being patient with him, but I can understand why he's stuck with it since that plan worked with other veteran players.

Dunn's skills are not the same as Dye's or Konerko's or AJ's. He is a strikeout machine even at his best, so having him bat 3rd does not utilize his talents in the best way, IMO.

dickallen15
09-06-2011, 03:42 PM
We've been there already.

Dye 2008, Konerko 2009 and A.J. 2010 all pulled out of bad slumps to have very solid second halves when Ozzie was patient with them.

The first three months Dunn batted third because of his stellar career OBP before this season. Also, it was yet unknown if recovering from his surgery was the reasons for his struggles or if he was not going to be the player they signed this season.

Dunn is flat out an anomaly this year. I guess it's the manager's fault not to recognize that sooner and stop being patient with him, but I can understand why he stuck with it since that plan worked with other veteran players.

Yes it is the manager's fault he stuck with him as long as he did. He could have moved him down a lot earlier. How much does one have to see? Can't guys get out of their slumps batting 7th or 8th or must they bat 3rd or 4th and continue to cost the team wins?

kittle42
09-06-2011, 03:48 PM
Yes it is the manager's fault he stuck with him as long as he did. He could have moved him down a lot earlier. How much does one have to see? Can't guys get out of their slumps batting 7th or 8th or must they bat 3rd or 4th and continue to cost the team wins?

It's "by the book" managing! Of course, this book has only sold 1 copy.

SI1020
09-06-2011, 03:51 PM
We've been there already.

Dye 2008, Konerko 2009 and A.J. 2010 all pulled out of bad slumps to have very solid second halves when Ozzie was patient with them.

The first three months Dunn batted third because of his stellar career OBP before this season. Also, it was yet unknown if recovering from his surgery was the reasons for his struggles or if he was not going to be the player they signed this season.

Dunn is flat out an anomaly this year. I guess it's the manager's fault not to recognize that sooner and stop being patient with him, but I can understand why he stuck with it since that plan worked with other veteran players. I think you mean Dye 2007 and Konerko 2008.

captain54
09-06-2011, 04:57 PM
If so many teams with similar resources, fan bases, and media exposure cannot produce better success than what we have enjoyed during Ozzie's tenure, is that also an indictment of the management of those teams or is it more par for the course, since the majority of MLB teams would trade our record since the start of 2004 with us in a heartbeat?

You're starting to lose me here.

There are not "so many teams" with similar resources than the White Sox. Chicago is in the top three in the US as far as size of the baseball market. So large in fact, that we can support 2 teams, as do the two other cities in our category (you could include Florida, Texas and SF, but technically not the same). So to suggest there are "so many teams with similiar resources" is just false.

I'm not so sure I'd be quick to proclaim that the majority of MLB would trade our record since 2004 in a heartbeat.

If you want to break it down to just the AL, let's compare the Sox to the two extremes...the Yankees and the Royals.

the Yankees have won about 60% of their games since 04'
the Royals have won about 40% of their games since 04'
the White Sox have won 52.5% of their games since 04'

a smidgen above mediocre since 04'. Middle of the pack.

asindc
09-06-2011, 05:10 PM
You're starting to lose me here.

There are not "so many teams" with similar resources than the White Sox. Chicago is in the top three in the US as far as size of the baseball market. So large in fact, that we can support 2 teams, as do the two other cities in our category (you could include Florida, Texas and SF, but technically not the same). So to suggest there are "so many teams with similiar resources" is just false.

I'm not so sure I'd be quick to proclaim that the majority of MLB would trade our record since 2004 in a heartbeat.

If you want to break it down to just the AL, let's compare the Sox to the two extremes...the Yankees and the Royals.

the Yankees have won about 60% of their games since 04'
the Royals have won about 40% of their games since 04'
the White Sox have won 52.5% of their games since 04'

a smidgen above mediocre since 04'. Middle of the pack.

The LAD and LAAAAA are in a larger market than Chicago. The NYM are in a larger market than Chicago. Besides, market size (either media or demographic) does not automatically equate to resources on hand. If it did, the NYM would be able to outspend everyone except the NYY all the time.



You are not seriously suggesting that the following teams would not trade our record since 2004 with us, are you?

Detroit (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Texas (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Oakland (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
NYM (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Colorado (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Arizona (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Cincy (1 playoff, no WS wins);
San Diego (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Houston (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Cleveland (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Seattle (no playoffs);
Milwaukee (1 playoffs, no WS wins);
Atlanta (4 playoffs, no WS wins);
Minny (5 playoffs, no WS wins, only 2 playoff game wins, none since 2004);
LAAAAA (5 playoffs, no WS wins);
Cubs (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Florida (1 playoff, 1 WS Win);
LAD (4 playoffs, no WS wins);
KC (no playoffs)
Baltimore (no playoffs)
Pittsburgh (no playoffs)
Washington/Montreal (no playoffs)

Seriously, is there any team on that list you would trade records with?

kittle42
09-06-2011, 05:22 PM
Wouldn't any team that hasn't won a World Series since 2004 trade post-2004 records with the Sox?

This argument is kinda flawed.

asindc
09-06-2011, 05:29 PM
Wouldn't any team that hasn't won a World Series since 2004 trade post-2004 records with the Sox?

This argument is kinda flawed.

I'm not one arguing such. In fact, I find the notion that the majority of MLB teams would not trade their post-2004 records for ours to be rather silly to the point that fans of opposing teams visiting this site would probably scratch their heads in disbelief.

Tragg
09-06-2011, 05:39 PM
I'm not sure why it matters how the Sox performance compares to the Mets, Dodgers, Angels or Cubs.


It doesn't compare to the Angels in that period, as they've had 6 playoff appearances this century, with a WS...and 3 playoff appearances since our WS.
As for the other 3, they have been through multiple managers and in some cases, GMs.

asindc
09-06-2011, 05:54 PM
It doesn't compare to the Angels in that period, as they've had 6 playoff appearances this century, with a WS...and 3 playoff appearances since our WS.
As for the other 3, they have been through multiple managers and in some cases, GMs.

The comparison is being made from the beginning of 2004 (when Ozzie took over as Manager) to present.

Lip Man 1
09-06-2011, 06:53 PM
And the Angels have still performed far better even starting in 2004, record wise.

Lip

asindc
09-06-2011, 07:25 PM
And the Angels have still performed far better even starting in 2004, record wise.

Lip

That's only if you exclude the postseason, but why would you when evaluating a Manager's record?

Lip Man 1
09-06-2011, 07:46 PM
I give Ozzie a tremendous amount of credit for 2005.

It's also completely fair to give him part of the blame for the atrocious bad starts five straight years, the odd decisions that he makes regarding match-up's and his lineup and the turmoil that seems to surround him and the organization.

I thank Ozzie (and Kenny) every day for 2005, but that doesn't give them a lifetime pass.

The past six years have barely been above the .500 mark with one postseason appearance.

Another word for that is mediocrity despite a payroll generally among the highest in baseball.

But those who feel I'm being unfair can help by answering this then.

What season does the hangover from 2005 end in your mind and accountability in the here and now becomes valid?

I'll hang up and wait for your answer.

Lip

asindc
09-06-2011, 07:59 PM
I give Ozzie a tremendous amount of credit for 2005.

It's also completely fair to give him part of the blame for the atrocious bad starts five straight years, the odd decisions that he makes regarding match-up's and his lineup and the turmoil that seems to surround him and the organization.

I thank Ozzie (and Kenny) every day for 2005, but that doesn't give them a lifetime pass.

The past six years have barely been above the .500 mark with one postseason appearance.

Another word for that is mediocrity despite a payroll generally among the highest in baseball.

But those who feel I'm being unfair can help by answering this then.

What season does the hangover from 2005 end in your mind and accountability in the here and now becomes valid?

I'll hang up and wait for your answer.

Lip

I agree 100% with the bolded part. I've always said that a championship 'buys' anyone in management five years. Their 'five years' are up. The point I'm making with my posts in this thread is that as rightfully disgusted as we are with this season (and the previous three, for that matter), I won't let it skew my evaluation of their entire bodies of work. It ain't easy, but it should be better, given what we have to work with.

RCWHITESOX
09-06-2011, 08:11 PM
Ozzie, I love ya, but GET THE HELL OUT!

I love you to Ozzie but while your leaving take Kenny with you!

captain54
09-06-2011, 09:12 PM
I'm not one arguing such. In fact, I find the notion that the majority of MLB teams would not trade their post-2004 records for ours to be rather silly to the point that fans of opposing teams visiting this site would probably scratch their heads in disbelief.

I would never argue that any MLB team wouldn't trade 2005 with the Sox in a heartbeat. However, there are 7 other seasons, and a cumulated .525 record overall that Ozzie and Co. have to show for themselves. To argue that most MLB teams would lust for a .525 record in 8 seasons is where I'm scratching my head in disbelief.

Bottom line, the crux of your argument is that the Sox over the past 8 seasons and Ozzie are pretty darn good, and the grass is always greener,etc. so things could always be worse.

If the only reason to support Ozzie and his regime is the argument that things could be worse, then I would say that's a pretty lame reason not to try to switch things up a bit in the field manager department.

asindc
09-06-2011, 10:16 PM
I would never argue that any MLB team wouldn't trade 2005 with the Sox in a heartbeat. However, there are 7 other seasons, and a cumulated .525 record overall that Ozzie and Co. have to show for themselves. To argue that most MLB teams would lust for a .525 record in 8 seasons is where I'm scratching my head in disbelief.

Bottom line, the crux of your argument is that the Sox over the past 8 seasons and Ozzie are pretty darn good, and the grass is always greener,etc. so things could always be worse.

If the only reason to support Ozzie and his regime is the argument that things could be worse, then I would say that's a pretty lame reason not to try to switch things up a bit in the field manager department.

I have not accused you of arguing that others teams would not trade for the Sox's 2005. You have been arguing, however, that the 8-season record is mediocre when compared to the rest of MLB during that stretch, while trying to ignore the postseason accomplishments in doing so.

As I have said repeatedly, my discussion in this thread is not being offered as a defense of Ozzie. For whatever reason, you have continued to read my posts in this thread as such. My point is that his entire body of work is better than most (including those of the multiple managers of other big market teams like NYM, LAD, and the Cubs), so let's have a sense of perspective.

Yes, most MLB teams would take the .525 over the past eight seasons when it comes with a WS championship, another division championship, and a 90-win season (all of this is part of the reality). I really don't understand why that would be difficult for anyone to believe. Unless, for instance, you would rather have LAD's .540 winning percentage, three division championships, one other playoff appearance, no NL pennants (not even within two games of winning one), and no WS wins during that same time. If you prefer to downgrade our WS championship to nothing more than a division championship for the chance to add two more plus a wild card appearance, well, you have different goals for the team than I do. I think you will be searching for a long time to find a LAD fan who wouldn't trade their last eight seasons for ours, even before their ownership mess became public. By the way, you might find this thread interesting: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116027

Now if you take the underlined accomplishments out of the picture (and by what rationale could you and, more to the point, why would you?) then it changes the whole discussion. In that case, only Baltimore, KC, Washington, Pittsburgh, and Seattle might trade 8-season records with us. If we are going to cherry-pick the past eight seasons, though, I'll take out 2007 and 2009. I prefer to look at the entire picture, however, because it happened whether we want to acknowledge or not.

Frater Perdurabo
09-06-2011, 10:58 PM
It's not just about winning percentages.

Failing to win the division in the #1 market in this division for three straight years is a fireable offense for a field manager. (FWIW, IMHO a Sox GM should get 6 years.)

kittle42
09-06-2011, 11:06 PM
It's not just about winning percentages.

Failing to win the division in the #1 market in this division for three straight years is a fireable offense for a field manager. (FWIW, IMHO a Sox GM should get 6 years.)

Poppycock! .528 or something! Extensions all around.

This division blows and excellent management would have won it at least 5 times since 2004. Yes, only my opinion and a fairly arbitrary number, but I'll admit that.

captain54
09-06-2011, 11:09 PM
As I have said repeatedly, my discussion in this thread is not being offered as a defense of Ozzie. For whatever reason, you have continued to read my posts in this thread as such. My point is that his entire body of work is better than most (including those of the multiple managers of other big market teams like NYM, LAD, and the Cubs), so let's have a sense of perspective.

.

This argument will never go anywhere and will go around in a continual circle because you continue to tap dance around the fact that for going on year #6, the White Sox have one playoff appearance ( first round exit). In a mediocre division filled with small market teams.

And as the years pile up of non-accomplishments in the postseason since 05', the entire body of work becomes an afterthought.

russ99
09-07-2011, 08:09 AM
It's not just about winning percentages.

Failing to win the division in the #1 market in this division for three straight years is a fireable offense for a field manager. (FWIW, IMHO a Sox GM should get 6 years.)

Every year out of the last 6, except supposedly this season, Ozzie was giving a roster with at least one gaping hole because as Kenny likes to say "he only has 50 cents".

Pretty odd to expect division titles when we actually have a contending club that needs everything to go right to win the division. In a mediocre division as a big market team coming off a series title, we should haven gotten more from the owner and GM.

asindc
09-07-2011, 09:05 AM
This is your post that started this part of the discussion, particularly the bolded parts:


Let's face it, under the Ozzie regime there has been one great year out of 8.. 4 over .500 seasons and 3 under .500 seasons, with 1 just barely over .500 and TBD... Also, out of the 8 seasons, only 2 with over .500 2nd halves.. 05' and 10' .. 8 over and 5 over respectively

2 playoff appearances in 8 years? If you compare it to the Royals, Orioles, Pirates, Nationals...I guess that's pretty good... If you compare it to Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Phillies... not so good..

Ozzie's teams are notoriously weak 2nd half teams, and the last two years notorious slow starters. It all adds up to mediocrity and inconsistency.. For quite a while now.

You're starting to lose me here.

There are not "so many teams" with similar resources than the White Sox. Chicago is in the top three in the US as far as size of the baseball market. So large in fact, that we can support 2 teams, as do the two other cities in our category (you could include Florida, Texas and SF, but technically not the same). So to suggest there are "so many teams with similiar resources" is just false.

I'm not so sure I'd be quick to proclaim that the majority of MLB would trade our record since 2004 in a heartbeat.

If you want to break it down to just the AL, let's compare the Sox to the two extremes...the Yankees and the Royals.

the Yankees have won about 60% of their games since 04'
the Royals have won about 40% of their games since 04'
the White Sox have won 52.5% of their games since 04'

a smidgen above mediocre since 04'. Middle of the pack.

I give Ozzie a tremendous amount of credit for 2005.

It's also completely fair to give him part of the blame for the atrocious bad starts five straight years, the odd decisions that he makes regarding match-up's and his lineup and the turmoil that seems to surround him and the organization.

I thank Ozzie (and Kenny) every day for 2005, but that doesn't give them a lifetime pass.

The past six years have barely been above the .500 mark with one postseason appearance.

Another word for that is mediocrity despite a payroll generally among the highest in baseball.

But those who feel I'm being unfair can help by answering this then.

What season does the hangover from 2005 end in your mind and accountability in the here and now becomes valid?

I'll hang up and wait for your answer.

Lip

Here is what I wrote in responding to Lip's post:

I agree 100% with the bolded part. I've always said that a championship 'buys' anyone in management five years. Their 'five years' are up. The point I'm making with my posts in this thread is that as rightfully disgusted as we are with this season (and the previous three, for that matter), I won't let it skew my evaluation of their entire bodies of work. It ain't easy, but it should be better, given what we have to work with.

I would never argue that any MLB team wouldn't trade 2005 with the Sox in a heartbeat. However, there are 7 other seasons, and a cumulated .525 record overall that Ozzie and Co. have to show for themselves. To argue that most MLB teams would lust for a .525 record in 8 seasons is where I'm scratching my head in disbelief.

Bottom line, the crux of your argument is that the Sox over the past 8 seasons and Ozzie are pretty darn good, and the grass is always greener,etc. so things could always be worse.

If the only reason to support Ozzie and his regime is the argument that things could be worse, then I would say that's a pretty lame reason not to try to switch things up a bit in the field manager department.

Here is my latest response to your 8-season evaluation:

I have not accused you of arguing that others teams would not trade for the Sox's 2005. You have been arguing, however, that the 8-season record is mediocre when compared to the rest of MLB during that stretch, while trying to ignore the postseason accomplishments in doing so.

As I have said repeatedly, my discussion in this thread is not being offered as a defense of Ozzie. For whatever reason, you have continued to read my posts in this thread as such. My point is that his entire body of work is better than most (including those of the multiple managers of other big market teams like NYM, LAD, and the Cubs), so let's have a sense of perspective.

Yes, most MLB teams would take the .525 over the past eight seasons when it comes with a WS championship, another division championship, and a 90-win season (all of this is part of the reality). I really don't understand why that would be difficult for anyone to believe. Unless, for instance, you would rather have LAD's .540 winning percentage, three division championships, one other playoff appearance, no NL pennants (not even within two games of winning one), and no WS wins during that same time. If you prefer to downgrade our WS championship to nothing more than a division championship for the chance to add two more plus a wild card appearance, well, you have different goals for the team than I do. I think you will be searching for a long time to find a LAD fan who wouldn't trade their last eight seasons for ours, even before their ownership mess became public. By the way, you might find this thread interesting: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116027

Now if you take the underlined accomplishments out of the picture (and by what rationale could you and, more to the point, why would you?) then it changes the whole discussion. In that case, only Baltimore, KC, Washington, Pittsburgh, and Seattle might trade 8-season records with us. If we are going to cherry-pick the past eight seasons, though, I'll take out 2007 and 2009. I prefer to look at the entire picture, however, because it happened whether we want to acknowledge or not.

So now you are only looking at six years, rather than eight:

This argument will never go anywhere and will go around in a continual circle because you continue to tap dance around the fact that for going on year #6, the White Sox have one playoff appearance ( first round exit). In a mediocre division filled with small market teams.

And as the years pile up of non-accomplishments in the postseason since 05', the entire body of work becomes an afterthought.

So now that we are discussing the last six seasons rather than all eight seasons, I will point out that nothing in any of my posts suggest that I have ignored the fact that we have made the playoffs only once in the past six years, or that I'm happy with that. On the contrary, in case you missed it from earlier in this post, I said in a previous post "I've always said that a championship 'buys' anyone in management five years. Their 'five years' are up." No tap dancing going on here.

I don't know why you failed to read that but continue to take issue with the fact that the majority of MLB teams have had worse overall 8-season records than what KW and Ozzie have produced. Acknowledging that fact is not inconsistent with wanting a change in management, so no need to pretend that it is not the case.

asindc
09-07-2011, 09:09 AM
I would never argue that any MLB team wouldn't trade 2005 with the Sox in a heartbeat. However, there are 7 other seasons, and a cumulated .525 record overall that Ozzie and Co. have to show for themselves. To argue that most MLB teams would lust for a .525 record in 8 seasons is where I'm scratching my head in disbelief.

Bottom line, the crux of your argument is that the Sox over the past 8 seasons and Ozzie are pretty darn good, and the grass is always greener,etc. so things could always be worse.

If the only reason to support Ozzie and his regime is the argument that things could be worse, then I would say that's a pretty lame reason not to try to switch things up a bit in the field manager department.

By the way, you never answered the question in bold below:

The LAD and LAAAAA are in a larger market than Chicago. The NYM are in a larger market than Chicago. Besides, market size (either media or demographic) does not automatically equate to resources on hand. If it did, the NYM would be able to outspend everyone except the NYY all the time.



You are not seriously suggesting that the following teams would not trade our record since 2004 with us, are you?

Detroit (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Texas (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Oakland (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
NYM (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Colorado (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Arizona (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Cincy (1 playoff, no WS wins);
San Diego (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Houston (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Cleveland (1 playoff, no WS wins);
Seattle (no playoffs);
Milwaukee (1 playoffs, no WS wins);
Atlanta (4 playoffs, no WS wins);
Minny (5 playoffs, no WS wins, only 2 playoff game wins, none since 2004);
LAAAAA (5 playoffs, no WS wins);
Cubs (2 playoffs, no WS wins);
Florida (1 playoff, 1 WS Win);
LAD (4 playoffs, no WS wins);
KC (no playoffs)
Baltimore (no playoffs)
Pittsburgh (no playoffs)
Washington/Montreal (no playoffs)

Seriously, is there any team on that list you would trade records with?

asindc
09-07-2011, 09:27 AM
For some reason, some seem to think that acknowledging Ozzie's actual record, playoffs and all, will somehow weaken the rationale for replacing him. I certainly don't think so, but I think it is prudent to understand what we are working with so we can look at reasonable ways to improve upon what he has done. So that it is clear (don't know how it can't be since I've stated it before in several different ways), I will list the reasons why I think Ozzie should be replaced:



1) The veterans have seemed to have gotten used to his approach. He doesn't light the same spark in the veterans that he used to. Some of that might be attributable to many of our veterans having gotten big pay days since 2005/06, but the manager should recognize that and adjust.

2) His management of the lineup. No excuse to continue to bat Kotsay #5 in the lineup during the first 3/4 of last season, and especially no excuse at all to bat Dunn #3 to start this season and within the top 6 of the order anytime after mid-May.

3) Not knowing when to shut up. No explanation needed.

4) His reluctance to play younger guys in crucial spots when it is clear that the veterans are not producing.

5) The 5-seasons-and-counting trend of the team starting out slowly and having to play catch up the rest of the season. This is the number one reason, IMO, why we have made the playoffs only once since 2005. Whether it is failure to prepare the team properly in ST or something else, it falls on management to correct the trend.

6) Naming Thornton, he of the magical one pitch, the Opening Day closer.

7) If the other factors listed above were not in place this would not matter much at all, but his idiot tweeting son.



Sometimes, a team just needs a fresh outlook and approach, no matter the circumstances. So while I generally blame 90% of bad play on the players, that 10% attributable to management is still very crucial and is not to be taken lightly. If I had my druthers, I would fire Rios and Dunn before firing Ozzie, but Ozzie would definitely be third on my list.

Any confusion about any of this?

jdm2662
09-07-2011, 10:15 AM
Any confusion about any of this?

Not for me. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the good things Ozzie has done here along with the negatives. It is the only fair and moderate thing to do. Some people just think the only way to go is to be extreme at all times.

Ozzie has done some good things as manager and should be complemented on it. However, I said in 2006 his act will get old quick if the Sox start losing. Yes, he can be entertaining, but you know what? If I want entertainment, I can watch reruns of Married with Children. His main job is to win games, and it hasn't happened enough to warrant him to come back.

Prior to this year, I felt he was a good manager despite being an assphat. This is by far his worst year as manager. While certain players deserve their share of blame, so does Ozzie. Ozzie had a good tenure here, but he is not nearly as effective as he once was. This is normal for any profession, and it's time to start a new chapter. I'm tired of Ozzie and his act as much as the next guy. I also think his family is an embarassment and needs to go away. However, I won't be throwing a party when he is given his walking papers. I will just be happy that the team is moving on.

kittle42
09-07-2011, 10:35 AM
Sometimes, a team just needs a fresh outlook and approach, no matter the circumstances. So while I generally blame 90% of bad play on the players, that 10% attributable to management is still very crucial and is not to be taken lightly. If I had my druthers, I would fire Rios and Dunn before firing Ozzie, but Ozzie would definitely be third on my list.

Any confusion about any of this?

A reasoned opinion.

russ99
09-07-2011, 11:22 AM
Sometimes, a team just needs a fresh outlook and approach, no matter the circumstances. So while I generally blame 90% of bad play on the players, that 10% attributable to management is still very crucial and is not to be taken lightly. If I had my druthers, I would fire Rios and Dunn before firing Ozzie, but Ozzie would definitely be third on my list.

Any confusion about any of this?

Firing Walker would be first on my list, no question.

3 straight years of 3 different sets of hitters with the same poor approach at the plate, the same obvious lack of preparation, the same "pull the ball and hope it goes out of the park" mentality and the same results, especially early in the year.

My biggest annoyance if Ozzie does get the axe, is that he never got a chance with a different hitting coach, one that preaches patience, preparation and situational hitting.

Rocky Soprano
09-07-2011, 11:24 AM
My biggest annoyance if Ozzie does get the axe, is that he never got a chance with a different hitting coach, one that preaches patience, preparation and situational hitting.

The same Ozzie that has said he wants to come back with the same coaching staff?

captain54
09-07-2011, 02:22 PM
By the way, you never answered the question in bold below:

That's a loaded and leading question. Of course I wouldn't trade a WS win in 05 with any of those teams.

with the exception of the first half of 06'.. the White Sox have been mediocre overall since 05'. It's as clear as the nose in front of your face but you refuse to acknowledge it.

asindc
09-07-2011, 02:40 PM
That's a loaded and leading question. Of course I wouldn't trade a WS win in 05 with any of those teams.

with the exception of the first half of 06'.. the White Sox have been mediocre overall since 05'. It's as clear as the nose in front of your face but you refuse to acknowledge it.

Nothing loaded or leading about it. You were calling Ozzie's 8-season record mediocre compared to the rest of the league, probably without checking the records of the other 29 teams during that time.

As for acknowledging his record since mid-06', how is the following:

I agree 100% with the bolded part. I've always said that a championship 'buys' anyone in management five years. Their 'five years' are up. The point I'm making with my posts in this thread is that as rightfully disgusted as we are with this season (and the previous three, for that matter), I won't let it skew my evaluation of their entire bodies of work. It ain't easy, but it should be better, given what we have to work with.

I have not accused you of arguing that others teams would not trade for the Sox's 2005. You have been arguing, however, that the 8-season record is mediocre when compared to the rest of MLB during that stretch, while trying to ignore the postseason accomplishments in doing so.

As I have said repeatedly, my discussion in this thread is not being offered as a defense of Ozzie. For whatever reason, you have continued to read my posts in this thread as such. My point is that his entire body of work is better than most (including those of the multiple managers of other big market teams like NYM, LAD, and the Cubs), so let's have a sense of perspective.

Yes, most MLB teams would take the .525 over the past eight seasons when it comes with a WS championship, another division championship, and a 90-win season (all of this is part of the reality). I really don't understand why that would be difficult for anyone to believe. Unless, for instance, you would rather have LAD's .540 winning percentage, three division championships, one other playoff appearance, no NL pennants (not even within two games of winning one), and no WS wins during that same time. If you prefer to downgrade our WS championship to nothing more than a division championship for the chance to add two more plus a wild card appearance, well, you have different goals for the team than I do. I think you will be searching for a long time to find a LAD fan who wouldn't trade their last eight seasons for ours, even before their ownership mess became public. By the way, you might find this thread interesting: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116027

Now if you take the underlined accomplishments out of the picture (and by what rationale could you and, more to the point, why would you?) then it changes the whole discussion. In that case, only Baltimore, KC, Washington, Pittsburgh, and Seattle might trade 8-season records with us. If we are going to cherry-pick the past eight seasons, though, I'll take out 2007 and 2009. I prefer to look at the entire picture, however, because it happened whether we want to acknowledge or not.

This is your post that started this part of the discussion, particularly the bolded parts:







Here is what I wrote in responding to Lip's post:





Here is my latest response to your 8-season evaluation:



So now you are only looking at six years, rather than eight:



So now that we are discussing the last six seasons rather than all eight seasons, I will point out that nothing in any of my posts suggest that I have ignored the fact that we have made the playoffs only once in the past six years, or that I'm happy with that. On the contrary, in case you missed it from earlier in this post, I said in a previous post "I've always said that a championship 'buys' anyone in management five years. Their 'five years' are up." No tap dancing going on here.

I don't know why you failed to read that but continue to take issue with the fact that the majority of MLB teams have had worse overall 8-season records than what KW and Ozzie have produced. Acknowledging that fact is not inconsistent with wanting a change in management, so no need to pretend that it is not the case.

For some reason, some seem to think that acknowledging Ozzie's actual record, playoffs and all, will somehow weaken the rationale for replacing him. I certainly don't think so, but I think it is prudent to understand what we are working with so we can look at reasonable ways to improve upon what he has done. So that it is clear (don't know how it can't be since I've stated it before in several different ways), I will list the reasons why I think Ozzie should be replaced:



1) The veterans have seemed to have gotten used to his approach. He doesn't light the same spark in the veterans that he used to. Some of that might be attributable to many of our veterans having gotten big pay days since 2005/06, but the manager should recognize that and adjust.

2) His management of the lineup. No excuse to continue to bat Kotsay #5 in the lineup during the first 3/4 of last season, and especially no excuse at all to bat Dunn #3 to start this season and within the top 6 of the order anytime after mid-May.

3) Not knowing when to shut up. No explanation needed.

4) His reluctance to play younger guys in crucial spots when it is clear that the veterans are not producing.

5) The 5-seasons-and-counting trend of the team starting out slowly and having to play catch up the rest of the season. This is the number one reason, IMO, why we have made the playoffs only once since 2005. Whether it is failure to prepare the team properly in ST or something else, it falls on management to correct the trend.

6) Naming Thornton, he of the magical one pitch, the Opening Day closer.

7) If the other factors listed above were not in place this would not matter much at all, but his idiot tweeting son.



Sometimes, a team just needs a fresh outlook and approach, no matter the circumstances. So while I generally blame 90% of bad play on the players, that 10% attributable to management is still very crucial and is not to be taken lightly. If I had my druthers, I would fire Rios and Dunn before firing Ozzie, but Ozzie would definitely be third on my list.

Any confusion about any of this?

Just in case it needs to be stated (and it seems that it does), dictionary.reference.com defines "acknowledgment" as such:

1. an act of acknowledging.
2. recognition of the existence or truth of something: the acknowledgment of a sovereign power.
3. an expression of appreciation.
4. a thing done or given in appreciation or gratitude.

I've not refused to acknowledge anything. And to think I was going to put "Any confusion about any of this?" in teal. Definitely not required in this case.

captain54
09-07-2011, 03:54 PM
You just gave me a GREAT idea for a new 2012 ad slogan and a way to pump up those ST sales. I wonder if JR would go for it?:

We know you are rightfully disgusted with last season, but don't let it skew our entire body of work!