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TomBradley72
09-04-2011, 10:38 AM
We're now almost a full 6 seasons removed from the 2005 World Series championship season and 5 full seasons removed from our last 90 win season.

Outside of an 89 win/163 game Central Divison 1st place finish in 2008- we've been drowning in a sea of mediocre baseball despite a very healthy payroll with an overall winning percentage of .504 for the five year span of 2007-2011. Our overall attendance has been 6th out of the 14 AL teams in that time.

The organization needs an ovehaul in all areas of the franchise-


Replace Ozzie Guillen- too much drama, ripping on the fans, tweeting b.s., it's draining and a distraction from what really matters- the game on the field. I think he's a decent manager overall- but 8 years is long tenure in MLB-it's time for a new voice, including the coaching staff (excluding Cooper).
Replace Kenny Williams- screaming matches with his manager and batting coach relfect a lack of poise and maturity to handle the GM role. He's had some level of oversight to the minor league system for 15+ years with no evidence of the ability to develop a famr system that can consistently develop quality talent. What talent is developed has been traded for overpriced/underperforming veterans like Vazquez, Swisher, Peavy (albeit with injuries), Jackson, Pena, etc. No consistent strategy- the DH roller coaster of Thome-Kotsay-Ramirez-Dunn is exhibit #1- $20M later we're worse off than where we started with Thome.
Replace Brooks Boyer- after a strong start with "Grinder Rules/Win or Die Trying"- not much to show for the past few seasons of disjointed marketing campaigns along with a very stale promotion schedule (PLEASE cancel Elvis Night, Mullett Night, Rat Pack Night, Halfway to St. Pats Day, etc. in 2012- they were interesting when they were new- now just stale and almost embarassing).
Replace DJ in the radio booth- this is a major market- he's a AAA level announcer that has never been embraced by the fan base.
Replace Chris Rongey as the pre/post game radio host- he brings a confrontational style to the fan base and has seemed completely out of touch with reality and/or a complete "house man" with his defense of this team, etc.- need someone with more balance- who can handle the idiot post game callers- but still handle callers questioning the managers/GM's decisions, etc.
The organization has really regressed- and is at risk of slipping into the oblivion of 1996-1999, 1987-1989 if significant changes aren't made.

The balance sheet must look horrible for this year, the worst in over a decade I would guess- I'd have to predict further erosion in the season ticket base as well as slow preseason ticket sales for 2012 as they're saddled with $51M of untradeable contracts (Dunn, Peavy, Rios, AJ) which will severely limit any player moves to energize the fan base. The Tigers have a very solid roster, the Indians are young and improving- and we're likely to be stuck going to battle next year with the sames roster as this year.

The economy is not getting any better- and White Sox fans will not invest in mediocrity-JR has to realize it's time for a significant overhaul before this franchise slips over the cliff.

captain54
09-04-2011, 10:51 AM
The balance sheet must look horrible for this year, the worst in over a decade I would guess-.

According to Forbes, the market value of the franchise has steadily increased as well as revenues, despite an increased payroll and declining attendance. That tells me that JR is in no hurry to make major changes.

Coupled with the facts that JR won a WS series with basically the same group and his advancing years might make him less apt to surround himself with an entirely new bunch, I don't think a house cleaning is gonna happen.

Red Barchetta
09-04-2011, 11:11 AM
According to Forbes, the market value of the franchise has steadily increased as well as revenues, despite an increased payroll and declining attendance. That tells me that JR is in no hurry to make major changes.

Coupled with the facts that JR won a WS series with basically the same group and his advancing years might make him less apt to surround himself with an entirely new bunch, I don't think a house cleaning is gonna happen.

The increased cost for parking, food, merchandise, etc. have all helped his bottom line. I also think they need to re-look at the premium series ticket prices, not only from the SOX perspective, but also from the MLB perspective. I feel charging more for a Yankees, Red Sox or Cubs series devalues the rest of the league. I understand what they were trying to accomplish, however it backfired.

palehozenychicty
09-04-2011, 11:11 AM
According to Forbes, the market value of the franchise has steadily increased as well as revenues, despite an increased payroll and declining attendance. That tells me that JR is in no hurry to make major changes.

Coupled with the facts that JR won a WS series with basically the same group and his advancing years might make him less apt to surround himself with an entirely new bunch, I don't think a house cleaning is gonna happen.

Sadly, I don't see it happening either. The fact that Uncle Jerry wouldn't let Kenny fire Walker tells it all.

DickAllen72
09-04-2011, 11:22 AM
While we're at it can we please get rid of Hawk already?

doublem23
09-04-2011, 11:32 AM
I'd like the Sox to fire Ozzie and the on-field coaching staff. Otherwise, I'm pretty OK with stuff.

tstrike2000
09-04-2011, 11:35 AM
I don't think DJ's a great radio announcer, but I personally I've always liked DJ. Unless they're actually going to make the effort to get someone noticeably better, I'd keep DJ.

I like Ranger, too. The age old question is, what do you expect him to say? This is a .500 team with horrid season long slumps from two guys we absolutely needed in order to compete in this division. As a radio host, he can't come out and bash the whole organization. So, obviously, we're not going to agree with everything, or at times, a lot of things he says. This is just one of those seasons that has really worn down every Sox fan.

So, the two above situations are the least of the Sox worries. If you want to be mad at the organization, the focus is squarely on the GM and manager. Ozzie needs to go, plain and simple. If it's someone that we're tired of hearing from, it's Ozzie, not Rongey or DJ. He's a train wreck and as Sox fans, we're tired of being the bodies he's taking down with him in that wreck.

harwar
09-04-2011, 12:17 PM
The White Sox remind me of a Tennessee Williams play, with JR gathering his disfunctional family around him and dominating them like Big Daddy .. i've always liked Ozzie but this is a sad mess and it's time for him to move on .. i'm excited about some of the young talent that i've seen lately and i don't think that next year is going to be as bad as some think it is ..

guillensdisciple
09-04-2011, 12:21 PM
I think this thread is spot on. If you get rid of one piece, you have to get rid of the rest because this is a connected failure and one part missing will just lead to another one refilling and getting ruined by the others.

Tragg
09-04-2011, 12:28 PM
Bring in a new on the field staff, bring in a new minor league development staff, kick KW upstairs. As for the announcers, Stone is a professional level announcer and, in contrast to most of yall who do listen to him everyday, I like Hawk.
Never heard DJ on the radio, so I can't say, but I have heard Farmer...

Dan H
09-04-2011, 12:35 PM
I agree with much of Tom Bradley says except for DJ an Rongey. For some reason I like DJ. I don't listen to Rongey enough to form an opinion. Regardless, his replacement would be another company so why make the change? I do consider Rongey an articulate guy.

But the Blow the Whole Thing Up strategy has to be done with some real thought and real change. That is why both Ozzie and Williams both have to go. Both have done good things, but a change will probably help both as well as the team.

Brooks Boyer is a smart guy and I think he has done some good things, too. I just don't know if he truly understands Sox fans. I thought he did in the beginning, but I don't know now. Regardless, I think he needs to evaluate how fans have responded to marketing and promotions.

Whatever happens next season, a whole new approach has to be taken regarding everything. It has been a brutal and long season.

wassagstdu
09-04-2011, 12:42 PM
Here is my diagnosis of the Sox catastrophe. Adam Dunn brought the whole team down by casting (not intentionally, of course) a negative aura that engulfed most of his teammates. He struggled at such an embarrassing level that his teammates had two options, support him or ignore him. If he had moped or been an ass, they could have pushed him aside like Swisher. Since they like him, they supported him and empathized with him. That meant that no matter what happened, practically every game was a downer. How can you feel happy and celebrate or proud of your own successes when your teammate is in such desperate distress. Was that why they did not celebrate in the dugout when AJ hit that key HR a couple of weeks ago? Some of the Sox are more susceptible to this empathetic pessimism than others. Rios is clearly one of the most susceptible. Remember what happened to him when Dye was struggling, and how he rebounded when Dye was gone?

This theory would predict that the least susceptible should be the pitchers, and that is indeed the case. On the whole they have performed well and kept the Sox around .500.

My "easy" solution: remove Dunn no matter the cost. Not to the bench, but to some other team. Replace him with Viciedo, maybe Pierre with DeAza. gradually give Flowers more playing time, and leave the rest alone (sign Buehrle). Try that for a year.

Or they could hope that Dunn's problem was lingering effects of his surgery in April and coming back too soon. If so he should bounce back next year to a level where he may not be that much help to the offense but at least his performance would remove the fog and release his teammates to be enthusiastic. But hoping is not a strategy.

delben91
09-04-2011, 12:52 PM
Maybe it's because I don't live in the Chicago area, and so am not as subjected to the radio and ad campaign issues, but my opinion is if the product on the field is good, I could give a damn about the billboards and tv commercials. I understand everything leads to revenue and thus impacts the product on the field, but my focus is on Ozzie, KW and the players first, the rest second.

Looking at the 25 man roster (plus those on the DL) prior to the call-ups, the names in bold are the ones I'd want back next year. The ones with an asterisk are the ones I don't necessarily want back but for various reasons think the Sox are stuck with (contracts, etc).

Catchers
AJ
Castro
Flowers
Lucy

Infield
Konerko
Beckham
Ramirez (Trade bait if Escobar is ready?)
Morel (If there's an upgrade, I won't object, but don't think he's the problem)
Vizquel
Lillibridge
Dunn* (No one's taking that contract)

Outfield
Rios*
TCQ (Trade bait)
Pierre
De Aza
Viciedo

Starting Pitchers
Buehrle (Probably gone as a FA)
Danks
Floyd
Humber
Peavy*
Stewart (maybe out of the pen next year?)

Relief Pitchers
Santos
Sale (Maybe to the rotation next year?)
Crain
Ohman
Kinney
Frasor
Thornton (Trade bait)

DumpJerry
09-04-2011, 12:59 PM
The organization needs an ovehaul in all areas of the franchise-

Replace Brooks Boyer- after a strong start with "Grinder Rules/Win or Die Trying"- not much to show for the past few seasons of disjointed marketing campaigns along with a very stale promotion schedule (PLEASE cancel Elvis Night, Mullett Night, Rat Pack Night, Halfway to St. Pats Day, etc. in 2012- they were interesting when they were new- now just stale and almost embarassing).

Replace DJ in the radio booth- this is a major market- he's a AAA level announcer that has never been embraced by the fan base.

Replace Chris Rongey as the pre/post game radio host- he brings a confrontational style to the fan base and has seemed completely out of touch with reality and/or a complete "house man" with his defense of this team, etc.- need someone with more balance- who can handle the idiot post game callers- but still handle callers questioning the managers/GM's decisions, etc.

The balance sheet must look horrible for this year,
Yeah, Brooks, DJ and Rongey have cost the Sox how many games this year? *crickets*

You can speculate all you want about the Sox balance sheet all you, you will never see it. As noted above, the balance is fine. The Sox have diversified into many business entities (included CSN) which keeps them afloat very nicely no matter what the contracts and attendance looks like.

cards press box
09-04-2011, 01:22 PM
I'd like the Sox to fire Ozzie and the on-field coaching staff. Otherwise, I'm pretty OK with stuff.

Don Cooper, too? Boy, I sure hope that Cooper stays. He is probably the best Sox pitching coach since Ray Berres. Great pitching coaches are hard to find. We have one, hopefully for a long time.

I don't think DJ's a great radio announcer, but I personally I've always liked DJ. Unless they're actually going to make the effort to get someone noticeably better, I'd keep DJ.

DJ actually does play-by-play quite well on the radio. If there is a problem with the radio voices, it's not DJ. It's Farmio. I don't know about anyone else but I am completely fed up with Farmio fighting with DJ all the time. He had the same annoying habit of fighting with Chris Singleton on the air. I didn't like listening to that, either.

The other day I was listening to an ESPN radio broadcast of a baseball game with Singleton and Jon Sciambi at the mike. You know what? Singleton was entertaining and had some insightful things to say. Of course, Sciambi was not perpetually picking a fight with him, either.

I like Ranger, too. The age old question is, what do you expect him to say? This is a .500 team with horrid season long slumps from two guys we absolutely needed in order to compete in this division.

That poor guy has one of the hardest baseball related jobs probably anywhere. What does one say to callers who want to analyze minutia on a bad loss when the obvious is staring everyone in the face -- the Sox are not good enough to make the post-season or make a dent in it.



Catchers
AJ
Castro
Flowers
Lucy

Infield
Konerko
Beckham
Ramirez (Trade bait if Escobar is ready?)
Morel (If there's an upgrade, I won't object, but don't think he's the problem)
Vizquel
Lillibridge
Dunn* (No one's taking that contract)

Outfield
Rios*
TCQ (Trade bait)
Pierre
De Aza
Viciedo

Starting Pitchers
Buehrle (Probably gone as a FA)
Danks
Floyd
Humber
Peavy*
Stewart (maybe out of the pen next year?)

Relief Pitchers
Santos
Sale (Maybe to the rotation next year?)
Crain
Ohman
Kinney
Frasor
Thornton (Trade bait)

Don't be so sure that the Sox can't deal Dunn. I still think there might be a bad contract for bad contract swap somewhere. The question is: are the Sox better off gambling on Dunn getting his act together in the offseason or taking on someone else's albatross?

samurai_sox
09-04-2011, 01:35 PM
I'm willing to give Dunn another year if he can bounce back, and that's a big IF.

The Rios contract is beyond terrible and will handicap the Sox for years, no way around it. God I still can't believe Kenny was dumb enough to claim him,

this deal should get him fired.

captain54
09-04-2011, 01:36 PM
That poor guy has one of the hardest baseball related jobs probably anywhere. What does one say to callers who want to analyze minutia on a bad loss when the obvious is staring everyone in the face -- the Sox are not good enough to make the post-season or make a dent in it.



He doesn't make it any easier on himself by blindly defending Ozzie, KW, upper management, Walker, etc. despite the fact that the team has obvious issues. And of course, I don't get the talking down to the fans like they don't deserve an opinion thing.

Otherwise, kudos to him for being articulate and professional.

kittle42
09-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Here is my diagnosis of the Sox catastrophe. Adam Dunn brought the whole team down by casting (not intentionally, of course) a negative aura that engulfed most of his teammates. He struggled at such an embarrassing level that his teammates had two options, support him or ignore him. If he had moped or been an ass, they could have pushed him aside like Swisher. Since they like him, they supported him and empathized with him. That meant that no matter what happened, practically every game was a downer. How can you feel happy and celebrate or proud of your own successes when your teammate is in such desperate distress. Was that why they did not celebrate in the dugout when AJ hit that key HR a couple of weeks ago? Some of the Sox are more susceptible to this empathetic pessimism than others. Rios is clearly one of the most susceptible. Remember what happened to him when Dye was struggling, and how he rebounded when Dye was gone?

This theory would predict that the least susceptible should be the pitchers, and that is indeed the case. On the whole they have performed well and kept the Sox around .500.

I have read online fan fiction pieces that make more sense.

This theory is completely nonsensical. Was it tongue-in-cheek?

SI1020
09-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Yeah, Brooks, DJ and Rongey have cost the Sox how many games this year? *crickets*
No these matters cost the Sox no games, but they are of some importance nonetheless. Ask Pirate fans who remember when Bob Prince was fired, or Tiger fans who remember Ernie Harwell getting the heave ho. The Tigers were even forced to do an embarrassed about face on Harwell. The Sox have a tradition of giving the fans a great experience at the ball park. From Shay Torrent to Bob Creed to the incomparable Nancy Faust who they pushed out the door. They gradually have marginalized the organist in favor of the mindless noise that passes for high culture these days. Of course if the Sox looked like they were headed deep into the playoffs all of this would be even farther down the list of grievances than they are now. I still would not dismiss them out of hand.

SI1020
09-04-2011, 01:42 PM
I have read online fan fiction pieces that make more sense.

This theory is completely nonsensical. Was it tongue-in-cheek? Actually I think the analysis of the Dunn situation is pretty good. Saying it is the basis for all the current morass the franchise finds itself in isn't.

TDog
09-04-2011, 01:52 PM
The fact that people are talking about trading Quentin as it it is a thing to do to improve the team is discouraging. Quentin is the second-best RBI man on the team and could become better just as Konerko has developed into a better hitter.

Saturday's loss, while frustrating, can't be blamed on a weak offense or weak coaching or even weak pitching. Floyd isn't a problem, but he didn't have a good game. Santos isn't a problem, but he is most responsible for the loss. The coaches weren't the problem. The manager wasn't a problem for putting him in. The game wasn't even lost because Rios started in center. There are a losses this season like that, especially in April where there were so many losses.

Of course, there are problems with the composition of this team, and it was compounded by the presence of typically slow-starting players and dependence on a hitter coming to a new league, in a new role who underwent abdominal surgery in April. There were problems before Rios decided not to show up to play hard in 2011. The idea that a DH who strikes out a third of the time is something you want in a lineup baffles me.

I know many sabermetrics people don't care about strikeouts and believe a high on-base percentage is what you want to see, regardless of how low the batting average is. (I also have been told that strikeouts is one of the most important stats in a pitcher.) Many also believe the RBI stat has little value. Put guys on base and runs will follow, I've been told. I've often seen it not work that way. The lack of team speed often requires runners to be at third to be in realistic scoring position anyway. (Baseball players who can run, throw and hit is a concept I am waiting to see fully grasped by my team.) I don't know if the same people who argue that the RBI stat has little value are the same people who complain about the lack of hitting with runners in scoring position, but I don't see how one who doesn't care about incredibly high strikeout rates in theory could be OK with actually seeing players strike out over and over and over again, even with runners on base.

Konerko is the heart and soul of the White Sox batting order, and you have to accept that he is probably the slowest non-catcher in the majors because that's really the only place his game comes up short. Quentin complements him well, although streaky players have bad streaks as well as good streaks. Viciedo looks like he is going to develop into a the strong hitter I thought he would. Right there you have three players who can be rotated in and out of the DH spot, especially if one of them is a little banged up.

The heart and soul of the pitching staff is Buehrle, complemented by Danks and Floyd with Peavy needing to establish himself as the pitcher he has been elsewhere. Humber was the surprise early in the year, but he has to prove that hitters haven't caught up with him in his development as a major league pitcher. Santos could be an elite closer.

There is some dead weight to shed, for sure, but if what the Sox do in the offseason is dependent on big contracts that can't be moved and current players they can't afford to keep, the team isn't going to get any better, no matter who is managing and coaching. Taking this team to another level is going to be a challenge faced by the GM.

Brian26
09-04-2011, 02:32 PM
DJ actually does play-by-play quite well on the radio.

No, he doesn't. He's still awful. He has no business doing p-b-p. The Sox radio broadcasts have been pretty much unlistenable since 2005, except for perhaps the 2nd half of the 2008 season.

DJ lacks the ability to quickly translate what's happening on the field to the microphone. He simply cannot describe coherently what is happening in the appropriate chronological order to make listening at home enjoyable. This is never more evident than in situations where runners are on base and the ball is hit quickly to an outfielder. When I'm listening on the radio, I need to know the result of the play immediately, and then the details can be filled in later. DJ has this backwards.

The right way to make a call:

:rooney:
"And the pitch...looping line drive into centerfield, that's gonna drop for a hit, Durham scores, Valentin's gonna be waved in, and the Sox lead 3-1 on the base hit by Magglio."

:farmer
"RBI #52 and 53 for Mags, as he went out and got that pitch by Bonderman."
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
And the DJ way of announcing, same play:

:DJ
"And the pitch.....And there's a flyball into centerfield, centerfielder coming in, coming in, coming in, and he's going to have to pull up and play that ball on a bounce and hope to get it back in to the cutoff man Miguel Tejada in time. Reaches base, Magglio does. Coming around to score is Ray Durham and also Jose Valentin. "
:farmer
"Mag's third hit of the game. Sox lead 3-1"
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
There's a big difference in that way the two calls are made. One is smooth. One is disjointed, delayed Yoda-speak. Anyone who can listen to nine innings of that crap deserves a medal, and that's not even getting into the actual whored-out broadcast we now have where every play has a sponsor. There's actually a sponsor now for a double. Anytime a double is hit, a live sponsor read is required. It was cute back in the day when you'd get the Alex and Ursula Snelius read after a homer.

This has nothing to do with the play on the field this year. Maybe I'll break this up into a different thread.

Brian26
09-04-2011, 02:37 PM
Saturday's loss, while frustrating, can't be blamed on a weak offense or weak coaching or even weak pitching. Floyd isn't a problem, but he didn't have a good game. Santos isn't a problem, but he is most responsible for the loss. The coaches weren't the problem. The manager wasn't a problem for putting him in. The game wasn't even lost because Rios started in center. There are a losses this season like that, especially in April where there were so many losses.

Of course, there are problems with the composition of this team, and it was compounded by the presence of typically slow-starting players and dependence on a hitter coming to a new league, in a new role who underwent abdominal surgery in April. There were problems before Rios decided not to show up to play hard in 2011. The idea that a DH who strikes out a third of the time is something you want in a lineup baffles me.

As an aside, after everything that has happened, you would think that Alex Rios would be on his best behavior right now. He's been benched due to not hustling, fans are at his throat, he's been booed off the field, he lost his starting job (at least briefly) to De Aza, and yet yesterday he catches a fly ball by lazily gliding over to it and almost missed it by an eyelash with a one-handed Rickey Henderson-style catch, so bad looking that Vasgarian and Mitch Williams commented on it in the booth. This, exactly one day after De Aza missed a ball in the outfield that basically cost the Sox the game.

Does Rios have a pulse? Seriously.

TDog
09-04-2011, 03:51 PM
As an aside, after everything that has happened, you would think that Alex Rios would be on his best behavior right now. He's been benched due to not hustling, fans are at his throat, he's been booed off the field, he lost his starting job (at least briefly) to De Aza, and yet yesterday he catches a fly ball by lazily gliding over to it and almost missed it by an eyelash with a one-handed Rickey Henderson-style catch, so bad looking that Vasgarian and Mitch Williams commented on it in the booth. This, exactly one day after De Aza missed a ball in the outfield that basically cost the Sox the game.

Does Rios have a pulse? Seriously.

I thought De Aza would metaphorically kick Rios in the butt and get him going. A few times it looked like I was right, but now it looks like I was wrong.

There are some baseball players, more than you would think would be the case, who play for the big contract and then just go through the motions. It's one of the factor in why there are so many free agent busts (not to imply in any way that Dunn isn't trying). Obviously, Rios wasn't a free agent, but he signed the big contract with the Blue Jays and he stopped playing like he was worth it, at least on a consistent basis. The numbers players put up when they are making $500,000 can be better than the ones they are putting up when they are making $5 million, and character, their definitions of pride and self worth can have as much to do with it as the opposition's advance scouting.

One of the thing scouts look for in prospects is character. Some people don't believe that isn't important. Jimmy Piersall has said on many occasions something to the effect of don't tell me if he's a good kid; tell me if he can hit, run, catch and throw. Look at the tools, the talent that Alex Rios possesses. White Sox fans see the Rios tools once in a while, but they don't care because it seems he so rarely takes them out of the box.

skobabe8
09-04-2011, 04:39 PM
Fire everyone except Ranger.

Throw money at Dave Wills.

DirtySox
09-04-2011, 04:41 PM
Fire everyone except Ranger.

Why? Ranger is plain awful.

Brian26
09-04-2011, 05:42 PM
I thought De Aza would metaphorically kick Rios in the butt and get him going. A few times it looked like I was right, but now it looks like I was wrong.

There are some baseball players, more than you would think would be the case, who play for the big contract and then just go through the motions.


Where do you want to start the list? Soriano, Rowand, Beltran, Figgins, Carl Crawford, Gary Matthews Jr, Andruw Jones, ...and we're not even talking about pitchers yet.

WhiteSox5187
09-04-2011, 05:55 PM
Where do you want to start the list? Soriano, Rowand, Beltran, Figgins, Carl Crawford, Gary Matthews Jr, Andruw Jones, ...and we're not even talking about pitchers yet.

I am not so sure those two guys belong on the list. Rowand was just never that good and the Giants threw a ton of money at him, he accepted and was already on the wrong side of 30 but it's not like he just stopped trying. As I recall he was having a fairly decent year last year too until he got hit in the face by a pitch from Padilla. And Beltran had some pretty good years with Mets and then he got hurt in 2009. Those two guys both have bad contracts but it's not like they just stopped trying or caring. They still give you everything they got, it's just that the guys who gave them the contracts were stupid.

Lip Man 1
09-04-2011, 06:08 PM
Dave is in the middle of a multi-year deal. I don't know if Tampa would be willing to let him go or if he has an "out" clause in his contact.

Lip

TDog
09-04-2011, 06:44 PM
I am not so sure those two guys belong on the list. Rowand was just never that good and the Giants threw a ton of money at him, he accepted and was already on the wrong side of 30 but it's not like he just stopped trying. As I recall he was having a fairly decent year last year too until he got hit in the face by a pitch from Padilla. And Beltran had some pretty good years with Mets and then he got hurt in 2009. Those two guys both have bad contracts but it's not like they just stopped trying or caring. They still give you everything they got, it's just that the guys who gave them the contracts were stupid.

Rowand always played hard. He was a .300 hitter who almost literally would run through walls to win. The Giants gave him too much money for what he had left. Had he signed with the White Sox instead for appreciably less, things would have been a lot different for him and the White Sox, who don't trade for Nick Swisher and maybe (it's hard to make a guess on something that has less cause and effect) the Sox don't claim Rios.

Beltran is an example of a player who played hard and was in the right place at the right time to get a big free-agent contract, and hasn't been the same player since. I thought being traded into a pennant race this year, facing free agency, would kick him back into gear, but trading for Beltran has just made matters worse for the Giants. And the fans didn't react well to Beltran demanding to play right.

Pete Rose is an exception. He always played (cynics would suggest) like he had money on the game. But Rios is the other extreme. Look at the difference in raw ability between Rios and Dewayne Wise. Yet, I would play Wise over Rios if I had the option, and if I had it to do over again back when Rios was acquired by the Sox.

Brian26
09-04-2011, 07:02 PM
I am not so sure those two guys belong on the list. Rowand was just never that good and the Giants threw a ton of money at him, he accepted and was already on the wrong side of 30 but it's not like he just stopped trying. As I recall he was having a fairly decent year last year too until he got hit in the face by a pitch from Padilla. And Beltran had some pretty good years with Mets and then he got hurt in 2009. Those two guys both have bad contracts but it's not like they just stopped trying or caring. They still give you everything they got, it's just that the guys who gave them the contracts were stupid.


Beltran's never been the same player since that unreal run down the stretch for the 2004 Astros. For that matter, neither has Johan Santana. Neither has been Jason Bay. Bobby Bonilla was a bust for the Mets too. Something about that franchise...

Viva Medias B's
09-04-2011, 07:08 PM
I have continued to say that both Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen must go. The losing is one thing, but what really puts me off is all the soap opera bull****. This is like the Bears and Ditka circa 1992. For the sake of the franchise's long term health and ability to contend, we must clean this dirty house no later than October 1, 2011.

soxfanreggie
09-04-2011, 09:37 PM
I don't think DJ's a great radio announcer, but I personally I've always liked DJ. Unless they're actually going to make the effort to get someone noticeably better, I'd keep DJ.

...

So, the two above situations are the least of the Sox worries. If you want to be mad at the organization, the focus is squarely on the GM and manager. Ozzie needs to go, plain and simple. If it's someone that we're tired of hearing from, it's Ozzie, not Rongey or DJ. He's a train wreck and as Sox fans, we're tired of being the bodies he's taking down with him in that wreck.

You can still keep DJ around the organization in some capacity, but I believe his overall grade as a radio color commentator is mediocre-at-best. Farmer is ok if paired with someone more talented. With DJ, it's probably the worst I'ver heard White Sox baseball on the radio.

You are right though. That is #5 on a list of 5. Your coaching staff, front office, and players are the top 3.

Jurr
09-04-2011, 09:49 PM
Who's seriously talking radio crew????
DJ and Farmer would sound amazing if they were calling Sox wins and not having to make excuses for this crap!

Sox won a WS with a 75 mil payroll, because they loaded up on gamers with heart and a lot to prove. Everybody rallied around the philosophical change of pitching, defense, and focus. Timely hitting everywhere. Wins, not stats or contracts.

Older players with fat contracts never win, unless they are in a location where winning is the only accepted option. It's not that way in Chicago yet.

Chicken Dinner
09-04-2011, 09:51 PM
This series should be the dagger that kills Kenny and Ozzies White Sox career!

SI1020
09-04-2011, 09:57 PM
I have continued to say that both Kenny Williams and Ozzie Guillen must go. The losing is one thing, but what really puts me off is all the soap opera bull****. This is like the Bears and Ditka circa 1992. For the sake of the franchise's long term health and ability to contend, we must clean this dirty house no later than October 1, 2011. I really hate to see Ditka compared to Ozzie. Ditka was outspoken, Ozzie is something altogether different. I just want to leave it at that because I don't want to be like Ozzie. Ditka was a better coach, developer of talent, and had a superior record. The Bears had a decent 5 year run (84-88), Ozzie truly a one year wonder.

Soxman219
09-04-2011, 09:59 PM
Can't wait til Sept. 28.

1989
09-04-2011, 10:04 PM
They don't need to blow it up, they just need to creatively retool. Kind of like 2008.

CF De Aza
SS Ramirez
1B Konerko
RF Quentin
LF Viciedo
C Flowers
DH Dunn
3B Not Morel
2B Beckham

SP - Buehrle
SP - Danks
SP - Floyd
SP - Peavy
SP - Sale/Humber

RP - Stewart
RP - Reed
RP - Thornton
SU - Sale/Crain
CL - Santos

Bench: Rios, Morel, Lillibridge, Pierzynski, Milledge

New manager, general manager, hitting and pitching coach.

With any sort of progression to the mean, this is a team that will compete. You may need to sell or move a few pieces around, but there's no reason to BLOW EVERYTHING UP.

Noneck
09-04-2011, 10:12 PM
They don't need to blow it up, they just need to creatively retool. Kind of like 2008.

CF De Aza
SS Ramirez
1B Konerko
RF Quentin
LF Viciedo
C Flowers
DH Dunn
3B Not Morel
2B Beckham

SP - Buehrle
SP - Danks
SP - Floyd
SP - Peavy
SP - Sale/Humber

RP - Stewart
RP - Reed
RP - Thornton
SU - Sale/Crain
CL - Santos

Bench: Rios, Morel, Lillibridge, Pierzynski, Milledge

New manager, general manager, hitting and pitching coach.

With any sort of progression to the mean, this is a team that will compete. You may need to sell or move a few pieces around, but there's no reason to BLOW EVERYTHING UP.


You do realize that roster would have a similar if not higher payroll than this years?

1989
09-04-2011, 10:24 PM
You do realize that roster would have a similar if not higher payroll than this years?

Yes

DSpivack
09-04-2011, 10:42 PM
Beltran's never been the same player since that unreal run down the stretch for the 2004 Astros. For that matter, neither has Johan Santana. Neither has been Jason Bay. Bobby Bonilla was a bust for the Mets too. Something about that franchise...

Beltran had a couple of great years in Flushing before he got injured, and just old, in the last couple seasons.

Santana has pitched fine for the Mets, but again has had injury problems.

I don't think there's some curse on the Mets. Big free agent deals don't necessarily work out all the time, but I think they got some pretty good production out of Santana and Beltran. Tthe Mets gave them long-term deals, and now that they're well into their 30s, they have injury problems and aren't performing at their peak. That seems pretty typical to me.

Jason Bay has truly been a disaster, however.

Noneck
09-04-2011, 10:42 PM
Yes

And that the Sox this year may very possible have the lowest attendance since 2002?

GlassSox
09-04-2011, 11:13 PM
And that the Sox this year may very possible have the lowest attendance since 2002?

Yep, you may be able to hear an echo there.

Dan H
09-05-2011, 02:50 AM
They don't need to blow it up, they just need to creatively retool. Kind of like 2008.

With any sort of progression to the mean, this is a team that will compete. You may need to sell or move a few pieces around, but there's no reason to BLOW EVERYTHING UP.

No, they need to blow it up. And do it as soon as possible.

wassagstdu
09-05-2011, 06:11 AM
I have read online fan fiction pieces that make more sense.

This theory is completely nonsensical. Was it tongue-in-cheek?

So you don't believe in the team thing, and you don't think a black hole in the middle of a team can poison the chemistry? OK.

Lundind1
09-05-2011, 07:56 AM
Who's seriously talking radio crew????
DJ and Farmer would sound amazing if they were calling Sox wins and not having to make excuses for this crap!

Sox won a WS with a 75 mil payroll, because they loaded up on gamers with heart and a lot to prove. Everybody rallied around the philosophical change of pitching, defense, and focus. Timely hitting everywhere. Wins, not stats or contracts.

Older players with fat contracts never win, unless they are in a location where winning is the only accepted option. It's not that way in Chicago yet.

This is a great comment that should receive more replies than ones about who is on the radio. I have long held that this team does not look like it has any fire in it. 2006 was the last time I really felt that a Sox team had what it takes to come back and win a game. Now they get down, and no chance.

We need that fight back, however it gets here.

asindc
09-05-2011, 09:11 AM
Who's seriously talking radio crew????
DJ and Farmer would sound amazing if they were calling Sox wins and not having to make excuses for this crap!

Sox won a WS with a 75 mil payroll, because they loaded up on gamers with heart and a lot to prove. Everybody rallied around the philosophical change of pitching, defense, and focus. Timely hitting everywhere. Wins, not stats or contracts.

Older players with fat contracts never win, unless they are in a location where winning is the only accepted option. It's not that way in Chicago yet.

QFT. I think this is why JR has resisted going big in the FA market up until recently, not because he didn't have the money to spend. For some reason, vets respond better when they are traded rather than switching teams as FAs. Since I doubt any of the current Sox players grew up rooting for the Sox (as is the case with most teams most of the time), the biggest motivators are natural exceptional competitive drive (Peavy, AJ, Buehrle, Pierre) and/or having something to prove (De Aza, Humber, Pauly, Santos).

As for management, as much as I appreciate Ozzie's body of work with the Sox on the whole, it is probably best for him and the Sox that he move on. With KW, it really depends on what JR wants from his GM. If the general neglect of the farm system goes all the way to the top, then it won't matter who the GM is. If KW has been convincing JR that the farm system should be a secondary concern, then a new GM is most likely what is best, IMO. As far as the high-priced acquisitions are concerned, every GM misses badly often, though the warning signs with Rios were there.

Either way, I do wonder how many Sox fans who are calling for wholesale changes are willing to support a rebuilding effort in the same manner they would support a contender. It's worth asking, because that is one of the many questions JR will have to answer this offseason.

billyvsox
09-05-2011, 09:34 AM
Here is my diagnosis of the Sox catastrophe. Adam Dunn brought the whole team down by casting (not intentionally, of course) a negative aura that engulfed most of his teammates. He struggled at such an embarrassing level that his teammates had two options, support him or ignore him. If he had moped or been an ass, they could have pushed him aside like Swisher. Since they like him, they supported him and empathized with him. That meant that no matter what happened, practically every game was a downer. How can you feel happy and celebrate or proud of your own successes when your teammate is in such desperate distress. Was that why they did not celebrate in the dugout when AJ hit that key HR a couple of weeks ago? Some of the Sox are more susceptible to this empathetic pessimism than others. Rios is clearly one of the most susceptible. Remember what happened to him when Dye was struggling, and how he rebounded when Dye was gone?

This theory would predict that the least susceptible should be the pitchers, and that is indeed the case. On the whole they have performed well and kept the Sox around .500.

My "easy" solution: remove Dunn no matter the cost. Not to the bench, but to some other team. Replace him with Viciedo, maybe Pierre with DeAza. gradually give Flowers more playing time, and leave the rest alone (sign Buehrle). Try that for a year.

Or they could hope that Dunn's problem was lingering effects of his surgery in April and coming back too soon. If so he should bounce back next year to a level where he may not be that much help to the offense but at least his performance would remove the fog and release his teammates to be enthusiastic. But hoping is not a strategy.


I agree with this theory. Dunn's failures hit national attention and the joke was on. It was compounded then by Ozzie continuing to play him. Sure the other players supported Dunn and empathized with him because that is what players do. It is the managers job to put the hammer down and bench or DL the guy. Viciedo could have been up in June to help this team.

Ozzie's loyalty and KW letting him do it, meant the team chemistry was destroyed and they lost the clubhouse. It furthered to allow Rios to not perform and hustle and others to underachieve as well. Total domino effect that will not change until the Ozzie-Kenny show gets termed.

The team has alot of good parts to it despite the fact that we all wish we had guys like Hudson, Gio, McCarthy, etc back there is still enough to build on but we must find away to rid ourselves of Dunn and Rios (There is a reason Dunn has bounced around...trust me...he is all about the money).

I believe team chemistry matters (see Milwaukee Brewers) and this may have never been the same since trading Aaron Rowand who was such a well liked guy. Other known clubhouse 'grinders' like Timo Perez, Juan Uribe, el Duque, Crede one by one left the void. Sure none of those guys can play anymore, but my point is that KW has been enamored by the big trades and signings (To enhance his ego IMO) then building a solid team./

hawkjt
09-05-2011, 10:59 AM
Rongey is a non-issue. He is simply doing his job.
DJ is not a good professional announcer,and neither is Farmer. Get rid of them both or let them stay...not a real issue either.
Stoney and Hawk are fine...
Boyer? Again, hard to promote a losing team to a economically challenged fan base,with expensive tickets to sell. David Copperfield would be challenged.

Now, on to what matters...

Get Rios,Beckham,and Dunn on off-season programs to address their mechanical problems,with a new hitting coach in charge.
Walker will leave on his own...fine.
Re-sign MB, and maybe trade Thornton for prospects.
Re-sign Carlos, let Juan go,and bring in DeAza and Dayan.
Rotate Carlos,Dunn at DH,and DeAza,Rios,Dayan and Carlos in the outfield.
Let Omar go,add another good lefty hitting infielder who can challenge Beckham at 2nd and Morel at third,and Lilly is the other infielder.

You pray that Dunn and Rios come back to their career numbers,and Beckham figures it out.

And you win the AL Central next year. The tigers did not play well last year,and they are going to win it this year...it is baseball,stuff changes year to year.

Finally, let Walker leave, give Ozzie and the rest of the staff another year,and leave the front office alone....let the dust settle.

Noneck
09-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Now, on to what matters...

Get Rios,Beckham,and Dunn on off-season programs to address their mechanical problems,with a new hitting coach in charge.
Walker will leave on his own...fine.
Re-sign MB, and maybe trade Thornton for prospects.
Re-sign Carlos, let Juan go,and bring in DeAza and Dayan.
Rotate Carlos,Dunn at DH,and DeAza,Rios,Dayan and Carlos in the outfield.
Let Omar go,add another good lefty hitting infielder who can challenge Beckham at 2nd and Morel at third,and Lilly is the other infielder.




Your suggestions would entail payroll staying the same or a possible increase from this year if there are no deletions from the current squad except Pierre and Thornton. Attendence this year will probably be lowest since 2002. Next years season ticket sales will take a big hit with the squad you propose. I cant see your proposal happening.

hawkjt
09-05-2011, 11:28 AM
Your suggestions would entail payroll staying the same or a possible increase from this year if there are no deletions from the current squad except Pierre and Thornton. Attendence this year will probably be lowest since 2002. Next years season ticket sales will take a big hit with the squad you propose. I cant see your proposal happening.


Juan and Thornton make 5 and 4 million. Now, I realize that Carlos and some others will get raises,so that will be offset.
Jackson is gone,and he was at 9 million.
Frasor makes some money.
Omar make a million.
AJ's deal goes up to 6 million so that will add.
I think the payroll would be the same or lower.
If someone has to go, I hate for it to be MB,or TCQ,but they would be the only obvious ways to cut payroll.

Noneck
09-05-2011, 11:34 AM
Juan and Thornton make 5 and 4 million. Now, I realize that Carlos and some others will get raises,so that will be offset.
Jackson is gone,and he was at 9 million.
Frasor makes some money.
Omar make a million.
AJ's deal goes up to 6 million so that will add.
I think the payroll would be the same or lower.
If someone has to go, I hate for it to be MB,or TCQ,but they would be the only obvious ways to cut payroll.

You are forgetting that Dunn, Danks, Floyd, Peavy, Ramirez, Ohman and Humber will all get bumps up.

ktssox
09-05-2011, 11:36 AM
I have read online fan fiction pieces that make more sense.

This theory is completely nonsensical. Was it tongue-in-cheek?

Do you ever think about how rude you sound before you make a post? Geez, tone it down.

wassagstdu's post was interesting and insightful. Is it so difficult to believe that real human emotions also affect a clubhouse? You don't think it could be part of the problem? I'm sure wassagstdu knows that's not the only problem. This team has plenty of them.

doublem23
09-05-2011, 11:46 AM
Why? Ranger is plain awful.

Then don't listen to the postgame show

tony1972
09-05-2011, 12:29 PM
I agree with much of Tom Bradley says except for DJ an Rongey. For some reason I like DJ. I don't listen to Rongey enough to form an opinion. Regardless, his replacement would be another company so why make the change? I do consider Rongey an articulate guy.

But the Blow the Whole Thing Up strategy has to be done with some real thought and real change. That is why both Ozzie and Williams both have to go. Both have done good things, but a change will probably help both as well as the team.

Brooks Boyer is a smart guy and I think he has done some good things, too. I just don't know if he truly understands Sox fans. I thought he did in the beginning, but I don't know now. Regardless, I think he needs to evaluate how fans have responded to marketing and promotions.

Whatever happens next season, a whole new approach has to be taken regarding everything. It has been a brutal and long season.

I like DJ and Rongey as well. I also like Steve Stone and Farmer.

Hawk keeps me from watching most Sox games on TV...

TomBradley72
09-05-2011, 12:42 PM
Rongey is a non-issue. He is simply doing his job.
DJ is not a good professional announcer,and neither is Farmer. Get rid of them both or let them stay...not a real issue either.
Stoney and Hawk are fine...
Boyer? Again, hard to promote a losing team to a economically challenged fan base,with expensive tickets to sell. David Copperfield would be challenged.

Now, on to what matters...

Get Rios,Beckham,and Dunn on off-season programs to address their mechanical problems,with a new hitting coach in charge.
Walker will leave on his own...fine.
Re-sign MB, and maybe trade Thornton for prospects.
Re-sign Carlos, let Juan go,and bring in DeAza and Dayan.
Rotate Carlos,Dunn at DH,and DeAza,Rios,Dayan and Carlos in the outfield.
Let Omar go,add another good lefty hitting infielder who can challenge Beckham at 2nd and Morel at third,and Lilly is the other infielder.

You pray that Dunn and Rios come back to their career numbers,and Beckham figures it out.

And you win the AL Central next year. The tigers did not play well last year,and they are going to win it this year...it is baseball,stuff changes year to year.

Finally, let Walker leave, give Ozzie and the rest of the staff another year,and leave the front office alone....let the dust settle.

Why would Buehrle re-sign (not that the White Sox have the money to do it) with the White Sox? A premium free agent with multiple options does not want to hang around all this drama from both the manager and the GM.

I'm sure Konerko regrets his decision to stay at this point.

JB98
09-05-2011, 12:49 PM
QFT. I think this is why JR has resisted going big in the FA market up until recently, not because he didn't have the money to spend. For some reason, vets respond better when they are traded rather than switching teams as FAs. Since I doubt any of the current Sox players grew up rooting for the Sox (as is the case with most teams most of the time), the biggest motivators are natural exceptional competitive drive (Peavy, AJ, Buehrle, Pierre) and/or having something to prove (De Aza, Humber, Pauly, Santos).

As for management, as much as I appreciate Ozzie's body of work with the Sox on the whole, it is probably best for him and the Sox that he move on. With KW, it really depends on what JR wants from his GM. If the general neglect of the farm system goes all the way to the top, then it won't matter who the GM is. If KW has been convincing JR that the farm system should be a secondary concern, then a new GM is most likely what is best, IMO. As far as the high-priced acquisitions are concerned, every GM misses badly often, though the warning signs with Rios were there.

Either way, I do wonder how many Sox fans who are calling for wholesale changes are willing to support a rebuilding effort in the same manner they would support a contender. It's worth asking, because that is one of the many questions JR will have to answer this offseason.

Count me in. I don't have a problem with rebuilding from the ground up. I'll keep my season tickets under that scenario.

I have a problem with big talk and no results for multiple seasons in a row. Don't feed me the same **** and expect me to remain a loyal ticket holder. I wasted my money this year on a team that is boring to watch and routinely gets its ass kicked at home.

I'm done with this regime.

kittle42
09-05-2011, 02:01 PM
Do you ever think about how rude you sound before you make a post?

No, I am too busy taking candy from babies and slashing strangers' tires.

A. Cavatica
09-05-2011, 03:15 PM
No, I am too busy taking candy from babies and slashing strangers' tires.

You and Brian Anderson are like peas in a pod.

LITTLE NELL
09-05-2011, 03:15 PM
Do not blow up the team, it needs some fine-tuning. Pitching for the most part has been pretty good. We were 4th in team ERA before last nights beating.

The OF should be pretty good with TCQ in LF, DeAza in CF and the Tank in RF.

I'm not sold on Morel at 3rd, TCM is OK at short. Next year is Beckham's last chance, his fielding has been great but if his hitting doesn't pick up its Bye-Bye. PK is Mr. White Sox.

Catching should be decent with Flowers and AJ probably splitting playing time next year.

Dunn at DH hopefully wins comeback of the year in 2012. If he has another year like this I hope he has the pride to hang em up.

The only bench guy I want is Lilibeast. Somehow we have to dump Rios.
We will have to pick up an outfielder and an infielder, who I don't know.
Maybe Jordan Danks in the OF.

That leaves KW, Ozzie and the coaches. That's were the ''blow the whole thing up'' comes into play, they all have to go. JR has to go out and get the best GM and field manager he can find and let the manager name his coaches.

TomBradley72
09-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Do not blow up the team, it needs some fine-tuning. Pitching for the most part has been pretty good. We were 4th in team ERA before last nights beating.

The OF should be pretty good with TCQ in LF, DeAza in CF and the Tank in RF.

I'm not sold on Morel at 3rd, TCM is OK at short. Next year is Beckham's last chance, his fielding has been great but if his hitting doesn't pick up its Bye-Bye. PK is Mr. White Sox.

Catching should be decent with Flowers and AJ probably splitting playing time next year.

Dunn at DH hopefully wins comeback of the year in 2012. If he has another year like this I hope he has the pride to hang em up.

The only bench guy I want is Lilibeast. Somehow we have to dump Rios.
We will have to pick up an outfielder and an infielder, who I don't know.
Maybe Jordan Danks in the OF.

That leaves KW, Ozzie and the coaches. That's were the ''blow the whole thing up'' comes into play, they all have to go. JR has to go out and get the best GM and field manager he can find and let the manager name his coaches.

You have two big assumptions- that we can "somehow get rid of Rios" and that Dunn wins the 2012 comeback player of the year award- hope is great- but both of those are extreme long shots.

wassagstdu
09-05-2011, 04:08 PM
Seems like Rios gets less support than Dunn. I do not believe that Rios dogs it. I think his loping running style, while effective, looks too relaxed. There were several times during the season (in April and recently) when Rios was hitting the ball hard consistently but not finding holes. Then it seemed that frustration got him out of his rhythm and he slumped. He doesn't show much emotion on the field but his recent blow-up in the dugout after striking out with the game on the line was not a who-cares shrug. I think moving his hands up has helped him and I would be comfortable counting on Rios to play CF for the rest of his contract. He has definitely lost focus a few times in the field, but he is still the best center fielder the Sox have had in a while.

LITTLE NELL
09-05-2011, 04:08 PM
You have two big assumptions- that we can "somehow get rid of Rios" and that Dunn wins the 2012 comeback player of the year award- hope is great- but both of those are extreme long shots.

It might be a stretch but you can always hope.
I just find it hard to believe that Dunn is this bad. I give him some credit for acting like a man through his horrible season. Now Rios is another matter, he's just a plain POS.