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LITTLE NELL
09-03-2011, 05:12 AM
More fireworks:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/7433947-574/white-sox-ken-williams-greg-walker-have-heated-confrontation.html

No doubt in my mind that we will have a complete house cleaning from the GM to the manager and coaches after the season. JR has to be fed up with all these clowns. That's the potential good news, the bad news is we are still stuck with Rios and Dunn.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
09-03-2011, 06:19 AM
Dammit Jerry, why did you have to smooth things over with Walker? We were THIS close to getting rid of him!

kevingrt
09-03-2011, 06:35 AM
It just keeps on getting more exciting.

Jerko
09-03-2011, 06:40 AM
What a circus.

Bucky F. Dent
09-03-2011, 06:42 AM
More fireworks:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/7433947-574/white-sox-ken-williams-greg-walker-have-heated-confrontation.html

No doubt in my mind that we will have a complete house cleaning from the GM to the manager and coaches after the season. JR has to be fed up with all these clowns. That's the potential good news, the bad news is we are still stuck with Rios and Dunn.


My God, I hope so. Someone needs to find some maturity and perspective in this dis-organ-I-zation and end all of this sordid and petty crap!

kittle42
09-03-2011, 06:43 AM
I, for one, welcome all these articles. The quicker we get rid of Williams, Ozzie, Walker, and whatever other coaches must go in the process, the quicker this franchise can try to get on the right path.

PaleHoser
09-03-2011, 07:02 AM
Both threw roundhouses, but swung and missed.

Zakath
09-03-2011, 07:04 AM
First good decision Kenny had made in ages, and Jerry had to go ruin it.

DrCrawdad
09-03-2011, 07:15 AM
Clearly I don't like the results but I do admire Walkers attitude in the article.

asindc
09-03-2011, 07:25 AM
Let's see: KW is not pleased with Walker's job performance, discusses it with him, and then fires him. JR then re-hires Walker. Did I miss anything?

slavko
09-03-2011, 07:34 AM
Clearly I don't like the results but I do admire Walkers attitude in the article.

Kenny's got an ego, a temper, and an attitude. He's also had a string of clinkers. Jim Hendry had a string of clinkers without the ego, temper and attitude. Nice guy. Noooooo, I'm not telling them to hire him.

TomBradley72
09-03-2011, 07:46 AM
I'm ready for all of them to go- including KW and JR.

Business leadership 101- hire good people- let them do their jobs.

KW should keep his ****ing mouth shut when it comes the specifics of a players swing- inappropriate to make those comments to the media. It might be time for Walker to go but he's been a solid member of the organization since the early 80's.

JR should ****ing stay out of it if the GM wants to fire the hitting coach.

I've never seen any evidence that JR knows how to pull off a complete organization restructuring- but that's what team needs.

A new GM who then hires his new manager and coaching staff, etc.

Hell- while you're at it- get a new marketing guy who won't trot out "Mullett Night" and "Halfway to St Patricks Day Night" for another ****ing year.

This is the worst I've seen since the "Hawk Wants You" circus of 1986.

soxfanreggie
09-03-2011, 07:56 AM
I don't think that Rios will come near the production he's getting paid for, but I am hoping we can get a .260 or .270 season out of him with 20-25 HRs. That makes his huge contract much easier to swallow than the current crap numbers he's putting up now.

Dunn - well, I know he's going to strike out a lot (and by a lot, I mean 150+ times per year) and probably hit .230-.240. If he can hit 35+ HRs though, that's also much better than his horrid performance so far.

These guys, while playing really bad right now, have the potential to come in next year and play better. If they don't, we might as well release them or bench them. No sense in continuing to play them if the results are the same as this season.

With Walker though, I can only hope that he is not offered a new contract. If anyone is going to be offered a new deal, keep Coop!

VenturaFan23
09-03-2011, 07:59 AM
First good decision Kenny had made in ages, and Jerry had to go ruin it.

Yeah no kidding. Thanks JR.:angry:

soltrain21
09-03-2011, 08:14 AM
What goes on in our clubhouse stays in our clubhouse.

You must be new here, Greg. That is about the least true statement ever.

Chez
09-03-2011, 08:27 AM
I'm ready for all of them to go- including KW and JR.

Business leadership 101- hire good people- let them do their jobs.

KW should keep his ****ing mouth shut when it comes the specifics of a players swing- inappropriate to make those comments to the media. It might be time for Walker to go but he's been a solid member of the organization since the early 80's.

JR should ****ing stay out of it if the GM wants to fire the hitting coach.

I've never seen any evidence that JR knows how to pull off a complete organization restructuring- but that's what team needs.

A new GM who then hires his new manager and coaching staff, etc.

Hell- while you're at it- get a new marketing guy who won't trot out "Mullett Night" and "Halfway to St Patricks Day Night" for another ****ing year.

This is the worst I've seen since the "Hawk Wants You" circus of 1986.

Maybe not recently with the Sox, but he's done it in the past with the Sox and with the Bulls -- more than once. Jerry Reinsdorf is not the problem. Far from it.

hawkjt
09-03-2011, 08:31 AM
Levine indicated that he talked to JR today and JR said that ''loud communication is part of our management teams style''.

Levine opined that Walker would be resigning at the end of the year.
Padilla says that Walker,a Georgia guy, has almost a paternal feeling toward the other Georgia guy,Beckham.

You definitely get a sense that this coaching staff and manager are gone,cept for Cooper,maybe. And Kenny? Possibly gone also.
I think all bets are off as this rift becomes more public every day.

This Walker-Williams incident occured 10 days or so ago. It is no coincidence that the Cowley columns started veering toward the cliff shortly thereafter. I would not be surprised if Kenny has enough enemies in the clubhouse now that someone started spilling more dirt to Cowley,about that time. I do not think Walker would do it, as he is an honorable guy,but others? Not so much.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-03-2011, 08:36 AM
I hope the overturning of the firing means JR he is not supporting KW. And that the time to clean house is at the end of the year. Walker's contract is up in a month anyway, so what does firing do? (He needed to be fired years ago.) JR probably wants Walker to leave with some dignity after all this time with the Sox.

As much as I dislike Ozzie, KW is worse. He has butchered the organization from the top down all the way down through the minor league system.

This overturning of the firing sends a message of non-support to KW.

Procol Harum
09-03-2011, 08:55 AM
This fiasco is just more evidence that Reinsdorf needs to hit the reset button and not just bringing in new baseball people, but new baseball people who also can comport themselves like adults.

hawkjt
09-03-2011, 08:56 AM
I uised to think having all the former Sox players was a great strength for this organization. And for awhile I think it was.

Now, tho, it might have become a liability. These guys all know each other back when,and down deep, Walker and Ozzie might not respect Kenny because they remember him when he was a fringe player.
JR loves them all, it seems,so it gets in the way of objective business decision-making. JR has made no secret that he has always regretted letting Hawk fire LaRussa,and seems determined to never let another of his favorite sons be fired again.
Hawk is also part of the picture.
Hawk has been very quiet with his opinions on how Ozzie is a great manager the last few months. His silence speaks volumes. Hawk loves Ozzie,even more than Kenny, but when Stoney calls Ozzies decision to pinch hit for Lilly with Dunn in the Twins game ''inexplicable'', I think it is fair to assume that there is some questioning of Ozzie strategy and lineups in the booth.

The whole deal is starting to feel like that JR Ewing primetime soap opera from the 80's ''where the family is plotting against each other...lets just hope it does not end up with a real life ''Who killed Kenny'' plotline.

dickallen15
09-03-2011, 09:01 AM
I hope the overturning of the firing means JR he is not supporting KW. And that the time to clean house is at the end of the year. Walker's contract is up in a month anyway, so what does firing do? (He needed to be fired years ago.) JR probably wants Walker to leave with some dignity after all this time with the Sox.

As much as I dislike Ozzie, KW is worse. He has butchered the organization from the top down all the way down through the minor league system.

This overturning of the firing sends a message of non-support to KW.

It does make you wonder what a GM will 11 years under his belt has left power-wise if he cans a hitting coach and gets immediately overturned. They all need to go. This junior high school bickering, and posturing to be JR's favorite is so childish. Its time for adults to run the White Sox.

Viva Medias B's
09-03-2011, 09:07 AM
We need to clean house. No quesiton about it.

SI1020
09-03-2011, 09:14 AM
This fiasco is just more evidence that Reinsdorf needs to hit the reset button and not just bringing in new baseball people, but new baseball people who also can comport themselves like adults. I totally agree.


As much as I dislike Ozzie, KW is worse. He has butchered the organization from the top down all the way down through the minor league system.
This overturning of the firing sends a message of non-support to KW. Yes sometimes it's hard to decide who's a bigger jerk, KW or Ozzie. However, JR must take some responsibility. He increases the tension, at least where his GM his concerned by constant meddling. What a mess. Unless cooler saner heads prevail we could be in for some very tough years.

Noneck
09-03-2011, 09:24 AM
This is more proof that Reinsdorf is and has been the major personnel decision maker. I have suspected this for years. He has had his finger in the pie since he became chairman.(No matter what he says) It is extremely difficult for me to ever blame Williams for any personnel decision because I have doubts than any major decisions are actually made by him. This mess should only be hung on one guy and that is Reinsdorf.

JDub35
09-03-2011, 09:26 AM
Clean house and let's get back to baseball. I'm so sick of this sideshow.

Hitmen77
09-03-2011, 09:31 AM
Clean house and let's get back to baseball. I'm so sick of this sideshow.

Bingo. Anyone who is wondering why fans aren't turning out to see this crap (on and off the field) is just out of touch with reality.

JR's "loyal to a fault" trait with regards to Kenny, Ozzie, and Walker is really killiing this team.

Noneck
09-03-2011, 09:42 AM
I have been reading about cleaning house for most of this year. Will that really change the culture of the Sox? Hiring a new hamstrung GM will turn into sos with a different face. He wont have control of hiring and firing key personnel, that includes managers, coaches and players. The only way things change is with a change at the very top.

MeteorsSox4367
09-03-2011, 09:46 AM
I just wonder that if Walker - who is one of my favorite Sox players ever - threw a punch at Williams that it was long, loopy and made no contact. Kind of like Beckham's swing.

tstrike2000
09-03-2011, 09:49 AM
Wow, that only took 5 years.

billyvsox
09-03-2011, 10:01 AM
I, for one, welcome all these articles. The quicker we get rid of Williams, Ozzie, Walker, and whatever other coaches must go in the process, the quicker this franchise can try to get on the right path.

This....+1

billyvsox
09-03-2011, 10:02 AM
Both threw roundhouses, but swung and missed.


I'm sure thier long "out and around it" punches drew air

billyvsox
09-03-2011, 10:06 AM
I hope the overturning of the firing means JR he is not supporting KW. And that the time to clean house is at the end of the year. Walker's contract is up in a month anyway, so what does firing do? (He needed to be fired years ago.) JR probably wants Walker to leave with some dignity after all this time with the Sox.

As much as I dislike Ozzie, KW is worse. He has butchered the organization from the top down all the way down through the minor league system.

This overturning of the firing sends a message of non-support to KW.


Agreed. Kw has traded away alot of prospects, and even if they never turn out, he could have at least got more then just Todd Ritchie, Edwin Jackson, Jake Peavy, etc for those guys.

The minors are bare. The organization coaches are littered with his friends. I have no idea what Buddy Bell does. etc.............

KW must go too!!!

DickAllen72
09-03-2011, 10:44 AM
It does make you wonder what a GM will 11 years under his belt has left power-wise if he cans a hitting coach and gets immediately overturned. They all need to go. This junior high school bickering, and posturing to be JR's favorite is so childish. Its time for adults to run the White Sox.
If the GM cans a hitting coach and the owner immediately intervenes and rehires the coach, it's the owner who "needs to go".

So KW can't even fire a coach and some people think he can fire Ozzie if he wanted?

The Sox are a dysfunctional organization and JR is the cause. No wonder he only hires former players and cronies. What proven, experienced, solid baseball men would want to work for him?

DickAllen72
09-03-2011, 10:45 AM
This is more proof that Reinsdorf is and has been the major personnel decision maker. I have suspected this for years. He has had his finger in the pie since he became chairman.(No matter what he says) It is extremely difficult for me to ever blame Williams for any personnel decision because I have doubts than any major decisions are actually made by him. This mess should only be hung on one guy and that is Reinsdorf.
You nailed it.

Lip Man 1
09-03-2011, 10:48 AM
A few things stood out to me in this story:

1. It was not written by Joe Cowley.
2. The fact that JR stepped in to smooth things over.

I can't add anything to what has already been said.

It looks like the Titanic is going down and it's "every man for himself..." You have to think JR (who brought some of this on himself by not doing anything as this situation was getting worse, either by himself firing someone or 'allowing' his GM the authority to do so) is getting tired of the circus. But the question remains, is he tired enough to want to hit the reset button?

My gut today says (and that can change next week) is that Kenny stays, Ozzie goes to Florida for compensation, Walker retires at the end of the year and the other coaches are allowed to leave because of expiring contracts.

It's not a complete reset, but a pretty good change for sure.

How that works out and who the next manager would be I have no idea save for it won't be Ken Macha. I heard Kenny and he don't get along.

Lip

Noneck
09-03-2011, 10:58 AM
Lip,

Reinsdorf created this circus and if he continues to do what he has been doing, bringing in new performers will not change the culture of the greatest show on earth, as long as he is the ringmaster.

captain54
09-03-2011, 11:35 AM
Let's hear now from all the Walker apologists who cried that we shouldn't criticize or suggest a change in hitting coach because 1) the organization knows what it's doing and if they really thought a change was needed and it would help the offense Walker would have been gone long ago 2) we're just fans and we don't know what a hitting coach does so we have no right to an opinion. Leave it to the professionals.

Tragg
09-03-2011, 11:37 AM
Agreed. Kw has traded away alot of prospects, and even if they never turn out, he could have at least got more then just Todd Ritchie, Edwin Jackson, Jake Peavy, etc for those guys.



What's been so dismaying is that when we do trade away the prospects and their upside, many of the veterans we've gotten haven't been just mediocre, many have been been stiffs.
And also our trading away prospects is amplified because we have so few of them (a lot of teams have traded as many prospects as we have).
Clean house.

captain54
09-03-2011, 11:45 AM
It looks like the Titanic is going down and it's "every man for himself..." You have to think JR (who brought some of this on himself by not doing anything as this situation was getting worse, either by himself firing someone or 'allowing' his GM the authority to do so) is getting tired of the circus. But the question remains, is he tired enough to want to hit the reset button?

Lip

We shouldn't ask those questions. Leave it to the professionals. They know what they are doing and are of supreme intelligence to us lowly fans on internet message boards.

#1swisher
09-03-2011, 11:56 AM
Why does everyone think, JR overturned anything? "Smooth things over" .

skobabe8
09-03-2011, 12:11 PM
I feel like a child right before the parents get divorced.

DickAllen72
09-03-2011, 12:15 PM
Why does everyone think, JR overturned anything? "Smooth things over" .
Reminds me of a few years ago when Ozzie said in a post game press conference that if they don't start hitting expect KW to make some changes whether it be the players, the manager or the hitting coach. Walker immediately went crying to JR and JR made Ozzie "smooth things over" with Walker.

JR should just marry Walker already.

This organization will be dysfunctional as long as JR is the owner.

SI1020
09-03-2011, 12:34 PM
Let's hear now from all the Walker apologists who cried that we shouldn't criticize or suggest a change in hitting coach because 1) the organization knows what it's doing and if they really thought a change was needed and it would help the offense Walker would have been gone long ago 2) we're just fans and we don't know what a hitting coach does so we have no right to an opinion. Leave it to the professionals. Yes didn't we get lectured on this a time or two? I would also like to add that as fan bases go ours is sharper then average in all phases of the game. I've been following baseball a long time and Sox fans continually teach me. A lot of us could see what was happening and then got told to shut up and stand in the corner. Let those who know best handle it.

GoGoCrede
09-03-2011, 12:59 PM
Clean house and let's get back to baseball. I'm so sick of this sideshow.

I agree, but I do have to laugh at how ridiculous everything has gotten.

I feel like a child right before the parents get divorced.

Great analogy, hope the custody battle isn't too ugly.

SoxSpeed22
09-03-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm not one to choose sides, but I think everyone needs to go. Jerry, did great things for the White Sox. He took a last shot this year, maybe he might have to ride off into the sunset. His son, Mike, is now running the Bulls, maybe it's time for someone else with the Sox.

JB98
09-03-2011, 01:17 PM
Yes didn't we get lectured on this a time or two? I would also like to add that as fan bases go ours is sharper then average in all phases of the game. I've been following baseball a long time and Sox fans continually teach me. A lot of us could see what was happening and then got told to shut up and stand in the corner. Let those who know best handle it.

The organization has wasted a lot of energy lashing out at its fans this year. It's obvious that our criticisms have touched a nerve. I think deep down Sox brass realizes that some of our criticisms have merit. We don't know everything, of course. We're only fans and we're not in the clubhouse. But we're not idiots either. Quite a few of us watch every day and we see what's going on out there.

tstrike2000
09-03-2011, 01:29 PM
The organization has wasted a lot of energy lashing out at its fans this year. It's obvious that our criticisms have touched a nerve. I think deep down Sox brass realizes that some of our criticisms have merit. We don't know everything, of course. We're only fans and we're not in the clubhouse. But we're not idiots either. Quite a few of us watch every day and we see what's going on out there.

Especially when it's been the same problems, over and over and over and over.

ChicagoG19
09-03-2011, 01:32 PM
I hope this organization is in for a full house cleaning after this season. And hopefully JR can keep his hands off all the personnel decisions unless it's the GM asking for a little bit more money to sign a guy. I hope Rick Hahn is promoted to GM and can rebuild our farm system. I am willing to suffer through 2 or 3 bad to mediocre seasons to have sustained success in the future and not just a playoff appearance every 3 to 7 years.

dickallen15
09-03-2011, 01:42 PM
A few things stood out to me in this story:

1. It was not written by Joe Cowley.
2. The fact that JR stepped in to smooth things over.

I can't add anything to what has already been said.

It looks like the Titanic is going down and it's "every man for himself..." You have to think JR (who brought some of this on himself by not doing anything as this situation was getting worse, either by himself firing someone or 'allowing' his GM the authority to do so) is getting tired of the circus. But the question remains, is he tired enough to want to hit the reset button?

My gut today says (and that can change next week) is that Kenny stays, Ozzie goes to Florida for compensation, Walker retires at the end of the year and the other coaches are allowed to leave because of expiring contracts.

It's not a complete reset, but a pretty good change for sure.

How that works out and who the next manager would be I have no idea save for it won't be Ken Macha. I heard Kenny and he don't get along.

Lip

Lip,
It may not have been written by Joe Cowley but it was the Sun Times and it was on line hours after Cowley made a fool of himself on local radio. The timing is beyond curious. Considering Joe said KW doesn't talk to him so he can't get his side of the story and how Walker doesn't mention anything about it when asked, I think its pretty easy to see this is Cowley's baby and he's having someone do the dirty work for him. Ozzie and/or Oney I believe are the original sources of this story.

thomas35forever
09-03-2011, 01:43 PM
I for one would not be opposed to cleaning house. This organization appears to be as far away from unity as it can possibly get. Besides Walker, whom I see absolutely no reason to bring back, especially with this new information now being made public, I think KW is the most likely one to go if no one on the coaching staff is respecting him. And if Ozzie keeps trotting out Rios and Dunn just to spite him, that's the ultimate sign. Of course, if Ozzie keeps going forward this season with a Lance Briggs attitude, there's no reason to keep him around either.

Whatever happens however, JR is not going to step down as chairman, so those of you who are hoping for it to happen, don't expect it. JR is going to continue to oversee day-to-day operations of this club until he is physically no longer able to or he dies, whichever occurs first. Why? Because he's the chairman and he can do whatever he damn well pleases as far as his own personal decisions within the organization.

Brian26
09-03-2011, 01:46 PM
I hope the overturning of the firing means JR he is not supporting KW. And that the time to clean house is at the end of the year. Walker's contract is up in a month anyway, so what does firing do? (He needed to be fired years ago.) JR probably wants Walker to leave with some dignity after all this time with the Sox.

Really a solid point here. If Walker was going to be shown the door, it should have been in May of 2009 or early this year. To fire him with less than a month left in the season is just a bad joke.

Brian26
09-03-2011, 01:51 PM
Hawk is also part of the picture.
Hawk has been very quiet with his opinions on how Ozzie is a great manager the last few months. His silence speaks volumes. Hawk loves Ozzie,even more than Kenny, but when Stoney calls Ozzies decision to pinch hit for Lilly with Dunn in the Twins game ''inexplicable'', I think it is fair to assume that there is some questioning of Ozzie strategy and lineups in the booth.

Yeah, I agree. Ozzie lost Hawk early this year. There was a non-intentional walk a few weeks back that didn't happen (perhaps the Red Sox series on Gonzalez) that Hawk didn't let go of.

I think Hawk's been a silent GM behind the scenes for the past decade. There have been plenty of references from even Kenny at Soxfest how they all huddle together when big decisions are made regarding personnel.

Frater Perdurabo
09-03-2011, 01:53 PM
I have said for years that this organization values loyalty over performance excellence.

thomas35forever
09-03-2011, 01:54 PM
Lip,
It may not have been written by Joe Cowley but it was the Sun Times and it was on line hours after Cowley made a fool of himself on local radio. The timing is beyond curious. Considering Joe said KW doesn't talk to him so he can't get his side of the story and how Walker doesn't mention anything about it when asked, I think its pretty easy to see this is Cowley's baby and he's having someone do the dirty work for him. Ozzie and/or Oney I believe are the original sources of this story.
Do you really think Joe Cowley is on a mission to expose the Sox for what they are/make them look bad? Since last season, he's been dishing out piece after piece about every organizational spat and controversy. Now I know he has a job to do, which is to inform the public, but he's the only one putting these out. You have to wonder if he's got some sort of personal vendetta against the current regime and wants to force them out of town.

Brian26
09-03-2011, 01:55 PM
Agreed. Kw has traded away alot of prospects, and even if they never turn out, he could have at least got more then just Todd Ritchie, Edwin Jackson, Jake Peavy, etc for those guys.

The minors are bare. The organization coaches are littered with his friends. I have no idea what Buddy Bell does. etc.............

KW must go too!!!

If you're assigning blame, Buddy Bell is innocent. If you don't honestly know what he does, read up on it.

Frater Perdurabo
09-03-2011, 01:55 PM
I think Hawk's been a silent GM behind the scenes for the past decade. There have been plenty of references from even Kenny at Soxfest how they all huddle together when big decisions are made regarding personnel.

I completely agree with this.

kufram
09-03-2011, 01:58 PM
It was in the newspaper from a blind source...hmmm, must all be true.

I don't really care what happens with the officers of the club nor the coaches because I don't think that is where the problem lies necessarily but I'll wait to pass judgement until someone that matters reports actual events.

dickallen15
09-03-2011, 01:59 PM
Do you really think Joe Cowley is on a mission to expose the Sox for what they are/make them look bad? Since last season, he's been dishing out piece after piece about every organizational spat and controversy. Now I know he has a job to do, which is to inform the public, but he's the only one putting these out. You have to wonder if he's got some sort of personal vendetta against the current regime and wants to force them out of town.

He's definitely with Team Guillen and Team Guillen Cowley admitted on the radio wants KW gone. I really think Cowley and the Sun Times don't want Joe to look so bad, so they are going to do what they can to try to make it look like he's got no axe to grind, he's just reporting facts, and that KW is an ass.

I have no reason to believe KW is not an ass, but what that has to do with being a GM is what I question. Cowley said he's lost his focus, that may be correct. I won't cry when KW is shown the door. They all need to go. Enough of these silly games.

captain54
09-03-2011, 02:09 PM
I think deep down Sox brass realizes that some of our criticisms have merit. Quite a few of us watch every day and we see what's going on out there.

It's not even a matter of trying to establish credibility as a fan with an opinion, really. We all know that having an opinion and posting it on an internet BB board is a world's apart difference from actually being in the driver's seat of a MLB franchise and making big money decisions.

It's a matter of those that are critical of the organization being slapped down as know-nothing, dumb fans. Yet, I have to admit, the Ozzie bashing and "fire everyone" mentality after every loss is beyond silly and annoying.

But as it turns out, the same criticisms that have been posted on this board of Walker may have very well been the same criticisms that have been held by key members of the Sox organization, but because of the dysfunctional nature of the way things works there, never really came to fruition or became public.

I just find it very odd that you can write off maddeningly inconsistent offensive numbers year after year now, historically poor offensive numbers from two previously successful big money hitters, and a startling offensive decline from one of the most highly touted Sox prospect in years, as it having nothing to do with Walker.

DirtySox
09-03-2011, 02:35 PM
It was in the newspaper from a blind source...hmmm, must all be true.


Ozzie Confirms KW/Walker Spat (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-guillen-confirms-williamswalker-spat-20110903,0,5493113.story)

The organization is a dysfunctional mess, and this has been quite obvious for some time now. I'm surprised some are still in denial about it.

GoGoCrede
09-03-2011, 02:45 PM
Is there anyone left in the organization who hasn't had a spat in these past few months? Does Southpaw have a beef with anyone?

thomas35forever
09-03-2011, 02:53 PM
Is there anyone left in the organization who hasn't had a spat in these past few months? Does Southpaw have a beef with anyone?
Probably the kid who stepped on his foot like what happens with Disney World characters.

fram40
09-03-2011, 02:54 PM
Is there anyone left in the organization who hasn't had a spat in these past few months? Does Southpaw have a beef with anyone?

Shouldn't we expect such behavior given the way the season has gone?

This has to be the most frustrating and disappointing season in quite a long time. Given the off-season signings and the expectations coming out of Spring Training, given the shortfall of revenue (way fewer paying customers than expected), this team - from top to bottom, on field and off - has underperformed.

I can only imagine the immense pressure throughout the organization.

What would be surprising is if the team wasn't coming apart at the seams. Is it surprising that the players haven't been involved in the shouting matches?

GoGoCrede
09-03-2011, 02:56 PM
Shouldn't we expect such behavior given the way the season has gone?

This has to be the most frustrating and disappointing season in quite a long time. Given the off-season signings and the expectations coming out of Spring Training, given the shortfall of revenue (way fewer paying customers than expected), this team - from top to bottom, on field and off - has underperformed.

I can only imagine the immense pressure throughout the organization.

What would be surprising is if the team wasn't coming apart at the seams. Is it surprising that the players haven't been involved in the shouting matches?

Sure I understand it, but it's distracting and kind of embarrassing. Although I do agree with kittle's post on page one or so that said if this means changes will be made faster, then bring it on. Doesn't mean waiting in limbo isn't annoying.

Noneck
09-03-2011, 03:01 PM
Whatever happens however, JR is not going to step down as chairman, so those of you who are hoping for it to happen, don't expect it. JR is going to continue to oversee day-to-day operations of this club until he is physically no longer able to or he dies, whichever occurs first. Why? Because he's the chairman and he can do whatever he damn well pleases as far as his own personal decisions within the organization.


I have realized long ago that reinsdorf wont step down but I also realize he is the root of the problem. No respected GM will take this job because of reinsdorfs meddling. This nonsense that goes on will continue no matter who are reinsdorfs underlings. I just hope I can outlive reinsdorf.

kufram
09-03-2011, 03:05 PM
Ozzie Confirms KW/Walker Spat (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-guillen-confirms-williamswalker-spat-20110903,0,5493113.story)

The organization is a dysfunctional mess, and this has been quite obvious for some time now. I'm surprised some are still in denial about it.

Yeah, people shouting at each other every once in a while in baseball is unheard of.

TomBradley72
09-03-2011, 03:10 PM
I think this incident is more evidence that KW needs to go as well.

He's not a mediocre baseball player or college football player anymore- he's the GM of a major league baseball team- all these screaming matches with his manager and coach are indicative of a guy who does not have the poise and maturity for the job anymore.

He can take his "tough talking- I'll glare at you to show how intense I am" act somewhere else.

And for that matter- does anyone think another team would EVER hire KW as their GM if he leaves the Sox?

I don't.

Boondock Saint
09-03-2011, 03:20 PM
I think this incident is more evidence that KW needs to go as well.

He's not a mediocre baseball player or college football player anymore- he's the GM of a major league baseball team- all these screaming matches with his manager and coach are indicative of a guy who does not have the poise and maturity for the job anymore.

He can take his "tough talking- I'll glare at you to show how intense I am" act somewhere else.

And for that matter- does anyone think another team would EVER hire KW as their GM if he leaves the Sox?

I don't.

Yeah, and quickly, too.

TomBradley72
09-03-2011, 03:23 PM
Yeah, and quickly, too.

Why?

He hasn't shown the ability to develop a farm system. He's carrying $45M of untradeable contracts. And he leads the league in yelling incidents with his manager and coaches.

gobears1987
09-03-2011, 03:32 PM
Both threw roundhouses, but swung and missed.
Post of the mother-****ing season!

gobears1987
09-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Great analogy, hope the custody battle isn't too ugly.

:popcorn:

It will be entertaining at least.

Daver
09-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Why?

He hasn't shown the ability to develop a farm system.

It's Buddy Bell's job to develop the minor league system, when KW was the minor league coordinator the system did produce talent.

Boondock Saint
09-03-2011, 03:41 PM
Why?

He hasn't shown the ability to develop a farm system. He's carrying $45M of untradeable contracts. And he leads the league in yelling incidents with his manager and coaches.

Ask Phil Humber, Dayan Viciedo, Alexei Ramirez, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Chris Sale, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, Sergio Santos, Carlos Quentin, Jim Thome, and any of the 2005 White Sox about Kenny Williams, and then get back to me on why there might be several teams lining up to make him their GM.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

SI1020
09-03-2011, 03:49 PM
Yeah, people shouting at each other every once in a while in baseball is unheard of. I don't get it. So you think all is well, and everything is just blown out of proportion?

Hitmen77
09-03-2011, 04:11 PM
The organization has wasted a lot of energy lashing out at its fans this year. It's obvious that our criticisms have touched a nerve. I think deep down Sox brass realizes that some of our criticisms have merit. We don't know everything, of course. We're only fans and we're not in the clubhouse. But we're not idiots either. Quite a few of us watch every day and we see what's going on out there.Especially when it's been the same problems, over and over and over and over.

:clap: :clap: :clap:


Yeah, I agree. Ozzie lost Hawk early this year. There was a non-intentional walk a few weeks back that didn't happen (perhaps the Red Sox series on Gonzalez) that Hawk didn't let go of.

I think Hawk's been a silent GM behind the scenes for the past decade. There have been plenty of references from even Kenny at Soxfest how they all huddle together when big decisions are made regarding personnel.

Back in '03, I knew Jerry Manuel's days with the Sox were numbered when Hawk began questioning his decisions on TV.

Ozzie Confirms KW/Walker Spat (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-guillen-confirms-williamswalker-spat-20110903,0,5493113.story)

The organization is a dysfunctional mess, and this has been quite obvious for some time now. I'm surprised some are still in denial about it.

I still don't believe it. This is just Cowley stirring up more ****. Nothing to see here folks, carry on!

Vernam
09-03-2011, 04:42 PM
Ozzie Confirms KW/Walker Spat (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-guillen-confirms-williamswalker-spat-20110903,0,5493113.story)
How nice to see Ozzie speak about this on the record instead of via his oracle at the Sun-Times, who probably fed the story to his colleague Van Schouwen because the heat was too much after yesterday's meltdown on 670AM.

Vernam

slavko
09-03-2011, 06:21 PM
I think this incident is more evidence that KW needs to go as well.

He's not a mediocre baseball player or college football player anymore- he's the GM of a major league baseball team- all these screaming matches with his manager and coach are indicative of a guy who does not have the poise and maturity for the job anymore.

He can take his "tough talking- I'll glare at you to show how intense I am" act somewhere else.

And for that matter- does anyone think another team would EVER hire KW as their GM if he leaves the Sox?

I don't.

Someone might hire him, but firing a long-time employee after a shouting match is not how I would run a business or a baseball team. Kenny has some personal deficiencies which a COO of a big business should not have. Yes, firing Walker is a good idea. Doing it after a shouting match is childish. Even Hawk didn't fire LaRussa that way.

I still think Kenny has the upper hand here and is likeliest to survive the liquidation.

kufram
09-03-2011, 06:30 PM
I don't get it. So you think all is well, and everything is just blown out of proportion?

I don't know about all being well but I do think all might not be as it is being presented. The point I'm making is that I don't know and I don't think many people actually do know what goes on in the clubhouse.

I think if Rios and Dunn had performed to anything like what most people (not all, I hasten to add) expected, none of this would be a story. People wouldn't care about the same exact circumstances if we were 5 games up.

SI1020
09-03-2011, 06:54 PM
I don't know about all being well but I do think all might not be as it is being presented. The point I'm making is that I don't know and I don't think many people actually do know what goes on in the clubhouse.

I think if Rios and Dunn had performed to anything like what most people (not all, I hasten to add) expected, none of this would be a story. People wouldn't care about the same exact circumstances if we were 5 games up. Of course none of us knows all the details, but it is obvious at least to me that there are many problems in the organization, and folks aren't locking arms and singing Kumbaya.

russ99
09-03-2011, 07:02 PM
Does anyone still think Ozzie has any say on firing coaches?

SI1020
09-03-2011, 07:04 PM
Does anyone still think Ozzie has any say on firing coaches? Or KW for that matter. That's at least twice Greg Walker didn't get fired. Apparently neither the manager or the GM can fire him.

WhiteSox5187
09-03-2011, 07:08 PM
Yeah, and quickly, too.

I would wager that he never gets another job as a GM. I can not think of another GM who gets into shouting matches with players, flips over tables in the clubhouse, charges into his manager's office to challenge him to a fight. Kenny is every bit the jerk and ego maniac that Ozzie is, he just doesn't shoot his mouth off as often.

TomBradley72
09-03-2011, 07:16 PM
It's Buddy Bell's job to develop the minor league system, when KW was the minor league coordinator the system did produce talent.

No it didn't- and Bubby Bell reports to KW-the farm system is pretty barren and has been for most of his tenure.

slavko
09-03-2011, 07:17 PM
Does anyone still think Ozzie has any say on firing coaches?

Who fired Raines? Who kicked Baines out of the dugout?

SI1020
09-03-2011, 07:25 PM
Who fired Raines? Who kicked Baines out of the dugout? He fired Razor Shines too.

DickAllen72
09-03-2011, 07:26 PM
Does anyone still think Ozzie has any say on firing coaches?
It seems that if you're one of JR's favorites, no matter what position you have in the organization, you answer to JR and only to JR. It's pathetic when a manager can't hire/fire any one of his coaches. It's even more pathetic that a GM can't hire or fire the manager let alone a lowly batting coach even after the coach confronts his boss's boss because he doesn't like what the GM said about a player's swing.

JR and Co. are what's wrong with this organization. If some people get their wish and JR fires KW and Ozzie, their replacements will probably be yet other JR ass kissers and probably affirmative action hires to boot. JR will never hire the best baseball man available for GM no matter who and allow that person to hire whom he feels will be the best manager. He'll hire another of his favorite ex-players or associates whom he can manipulate because that person will be eternally grateful to JR for giving him a position that no one else in baseball would give him.

DickAllen72
09-03-2011, 07:29 PM
Who fired Raines? Who kicked Baines out of the dugout?
I thought Raines was a damn good coach. The Sox have never been as good running the bases since he's been gone. Razor Shines and Rock Raines were probably fired because the weren't yes men or ass kissers.

Frater Perdurabo
09-03-2011, 08:21 PM
... when KW was the minor league coordinator the system did produce talent.

And Schueler never traded any of it.

slavko
09-03-2011, 08:22 PM
I thought Raines was a damn good coach. The Sox have never been as good running the bases since he's been gone. Razor Shines and Rock Raines were probably fired because the weren't yes men or ass kissers.

Raines was a GREAT first base coach and an ex-Sox player. And Ozzie fired him. Raines, Baines, and Shines. Would make a great law firm. Or a weather report. And your reason for Ozzie firing them is 100% correct.

Baines as bench coach in 2005 was usually sitting over there in silence while Oz and Coop were sitting over here discussing game strategy. I hope his demotion was handled professionally.

Tragg
09-03-2011, 10:29 PM
It's Buddy Bell's job to develop the minor league system, when KW was the minor league coordinator the system did produce talent.

Give him his old job back.

Lamp81
09-03-2011, 11:55 PM
So it appears that both Walker and Baines are still coaching at the Major League level because they are favorites of the owner. It's JR's team and he can do with it what he wants. I never before pictured him as the Jerry Jones/Daniel Snyder/George Steinbrenner type but I do now. The only difference is that he doesn't have the unlimited checkbooks those guys have. In the Snyder case, it has never been a successful management style.

For a GM to be unable to get rid of a hitting coach is insane. KW just have just resigned at that point.

The front office and dugout needs to be cleaned of former White Sox players completely. That means only Jeff Cox, Don Cooper, and Juan Nieves should be retained. Honestly, those are the ony 3 coaches who I have any faith in at this point.

Nellie_Fox
09-04-2011, 12:23 AM
No doubt in my mind that we will have a complete house cleaning from the GM to the manager and coaches after the season.Want to bet? Ozzie might be "allowed" to leave to accept the Florida job (I personally think he'd be nuts to take it,) but KW will be going nowhere.

BainesHOF
09-04-2011, 12:47 AM
Guillen definitely needs to go. The coaching staff needs to go as well. Williams now needs to go, too. All of this needs to happen the day after the regular season. It's a shame that Reinsdorf, for all the money he was willing to shell out, has allowed the organization to get so far out of hand.

Boyer needs to go, too. The promotions have become dreadfully stale and the atmosphere at the park has become annoying with the ridiculous loud and bad music a big part of that. The radio broadcast needs a professional play-by-play announcer. The TV booth would also benefit from change. Hawk and Stone make for a tension-filled broadcast that's become an uncomfortable listen. (The telecasts when Paciorek filled in for Stone were a vast improvement.) Even a new postgame radio host would be nice for what should be obvious reasons.

Nellie_Fox
09-04-2011, 01:09 AM
Guillen definitely needs to go. The coaching staff needs to go as well. Williams now needs to go, too. All of this needs to happen the day after the regular season. It's a shame that Reinsdorf, for all the money he was willing to shell out, has allowed the organization to get so far out of hand.

Boyer needs to go, too. The promotions have become dreadfully stale and the atmosphere at the park has become annoying with the ridiculous loud and bad music a big part of that. The radio broadcast needs a professional play-by-play announcer. The TV booth would also benefit from change. Hawk and Stone make for a tension-filled broadcast that's become an uncomfortable listen. (The telecasts when Paciorek filled in for Stone were a vast improvement.) Even a new postgame radio host would be nice for what should be obvious reasons.Why are you letting Southpaw off the hook?

BainesHOF
09-04-2011, 01:32 AM
Why are you letting Southpaw off the hook?

I love the green "guy"!

sullythered
09-04-2011, 04:28 AM
Guillen definitely needs to go. The coaching staff needs to go as well. Williams now needs to go, too. All of this needs to happen the day after the regular season. It's a shame that Reinsdorf, for all the money he was willing to shell out, has allowed the organization to get so far out of hand.

Boyer needs to go, too. The promotions have become dreadfully stale and the atmosphere at the park has become annoying with the ridiculous loud and bad music a big part of that. The radio broadcast needs a professional play-by-play announcer. The TV booth would also benefit from change. Hawk and Stone make for a tension-filled broadcast that's become an uncomfortable listen. (The telecasts when Paciorek filled in for Stone were a vast improvement.) Even a new postgame radio host would be nice for what should be obvious reasons.

How about the uniforms, the park, the name "White Sox," and all the players? Maybe all us fans should move to another country, too.

LITTLE NELL
09-04-2011, 06:21 AM
Want to bet? Ozzie might be "allowed" to leave to accept the Florida job (I personally think he'd be nuts to take it,) but KW will be going nowhere.

I will take that bet. If wholesale changes aren't made, then JR is also part of the problem. If I win you have to spend a summer in Florida. If I lose, I will fly up to Minnesota in the dead of winter and come back to Florida on the next available flight.

TomBradley72
09-04-2011, 07:15 AM
Why are you letting Southpaw off the hook?

Something to build on.

Southpaw + Around the World beer concession

TomBradley72
09-04-2011, 07:16 AM
Guillen definitely needs to go. The coaching staff needs to go as well. Williams now needs to go, too. All of this needs to happen the day after the regular season. It's a shame that Reinsdorf, for all the money he was willing to shell out, has allowed the organization to get so far out of hand.

Boyer needs to go, too. The promotions have become dreadfully stale and the atmosphere at the park has become annoying with the ridiculous loud and bad music a big part of that. The radio broadcast needs a professional play-by-play announcer. The TV booth would also benefit from change. Hawk and Stone make for a tension-filled broadcast that's become an uncomfortable listen. (The telecasts when Paciorek filled in for Stone were a vast improvement.) Even a new postgame radio host would be nice for what should be obvious reasons.

+1

We need an overhaul akin to when Hemond/Tanner were brought in.

LITTLE NELL
09-04-2011, 08:27 AM
+1

We need an overhaul akin to when Hemond/Tanner were brought in.

Too bad Frank Lane is not with us anymore. He would straighten this mess around.

PS. Tanner was great in 71 and 72 but he lost all credibility when he had one set of rules for 24 guys and different rules for Dick Allen.

SI1020
09-04-2011, 10:06 AM
Too bad Frank Lane is not with us anymore. He would straighten this mess around.

PS. Tanner was great in 71 and 72 but he lost all credibility when he had one set of rules for 24 guys and different rules for Dick Allen. Tanner and Allen grew up as neighbors in small town Beaver County Pennsylvania. Not excusing, just explaining. Star athletes almost always get the star treatment. What really sunk the Sox in the Tanner era was the worst string of injuries I've ever seen in 1973.

captain54
09-04-2011, 11:10 AM
What really sunk the Sox in the Tanner era was the worst string of injuries I've ever seen in 1973.

What's funny is, despite all that, the 73' Sox had about the same record this time of the year as do the 11' Sox. They were at the end of a streak where they had just won 13 of 14. Problem was, they were chasing a few teams with the mighty Oakland A's at the top of the heap.

The nightmarish season for the Sox in the 70's was 76'. They only won 64 games and were on the verge of becoming the Seattle Pilots, in large part because John Allyn ran the team in to the ground, and Charlie Finley, a Chicago guy, wanted to move the A's to Chicago. Bill Veek stepped in and put up 80% to keep the Sox in Chicago.

What followed has to be one of the most remarkable turnarounds in history... The Sox went from winning 64 in 76' to a 90 win season in 77', and one of the most fun seasons I can remember as a White Sox fan with the South Side Hit Men.

A walk down memory lane and the White Sox in the 70's .. ah yes

Lip Man 1
09-04-2011, 11:38 AM
Nell:

Perhaps you forgot this little 'situation':

July 27, 1973 - Sox vice president Stu Holcomb “retires” under pressure after his ‘hard line’ approach on salaries destroys the 1973 White Sox. When players wouldn’t come to terms with his initial offer, Holcomb ordered, then player personnel director Roland Hemond, to release them. No ‘try to compromise’, no ‘try to trade them’... but release them.

The Sox give away Jay Johnstone, Ed Spezio, Mike Andrews and Rick Reichardt. When Holcomb orders Hemond to release 21 game winner Stan Bahnsen, Hemond and manager Chuck Tanner go to owner John Allyn. Hemond threatens to leave if something isn’t done. Allyn sides with the duo and Holcomb is history.

Lip

Hitmen77
09-04-2011, 02:14 PM
Why are you letting Southpaw off the hook?

We've only had 2 playoff appearances in the 8 seasons that Southpaw has been around. It might be time for him to go. :tongue:

Brian26
09-04-2011, 02:44 PM
Boyer needs to go, too. The promotions have become dreadfully stale and the atmosphere at the park has become annoying with the ridiculous loud and bad music a big part of that. The radio broadcast needs a professional play-by-play announcer. The TV booth would also benefit from change. Hawk and Stone make for a tension-filled broadcast that's become an uncomfortable listen. (The telecasts when Paciorek filled in for Stone were a vast improvement.) Even a new postgame radio host would be nice for what should be obvious reasons.

The tension on the tv side is so awkward and uncomfortable right now, it's probably the year of tv broadcasting in the Sox booth in the 30 years I've followed the team. Even the Gary Thorne/Paciored combination was better.

Harrelson and Stone don't even converse anymore. They may "talk to each other", but they're not conversing. There are two different broadcasts going on. Stone's been mailing it in since May. Sometimes he gets off the hook because people think he's a professional, but he's been mediocre and rarely adds anything of substance other than being captain-obvious. Watch for this the next time they're together (Monday). There will be entire innings where neither guy will expand on to what the other person has said.

DickAllen72
09-04-2011, 03:29 PM
Watch for this the next time they're together (Monday). There will be entire innings where neither guy will expand on to what the other person has said.
That's because Hawk is an ass. Earlier in the season whenever Stone would expand on a point Hawk made, Hawk would cut him off with a terse, "Well that's why I said, 'Blah blah blah.'"

Tragg
09-04-2011, 08:25 PM
The nightmarish season for the Sox in the 70's was 76'. They only won 64 games and were on the verge of becoming the Seattle Pilots, in large part because John Allyn ran the team in to the ground, and Charlie Finley, a Chicago guy, wanted to move the A's to Chicago. Bill Veek stepped in and put up 80% to keep the Sox in Chicago.
You must have forgotten 56-106 in 1970. We rebounded to win 79 in 1971...and a refreshing 79 it was.

SI1020
09-04-2011, 09:58 PM
You must have forgotten 56-106 in 1970. We rebounded to win 79 in 1971...and a refreshing 79 it was. Followed up with a near miss in 72.

BainesHOF
09-04-2011, 10:49 PM
How about the uniforms, the park, the name "White Sox," and all the players? Maybe all us fans should move to another country, too.

Uh, the regular home and away uniforms are great, the Cell is a terrific park, the name is fine, and close to half the players need to go. The subject of fans and attendance is boring.

But feel free to defend any of the people I said need to go. I'm not sure how you could.

BainesHOF
09-04-2011, 10:54 PM
The tension on the tv side is so awkward and uncomfortable right now, it's probably the year of tv broadcasting in the Sox booth in the 30 years I've followed the team. Even the Gary Thorne/Paciored combination was better.

Harrelson and Stone don't even converse anymore. They may "talk to each other", but they're not conversing. There are two different broadcasts going on. Stone's been mailing it in since May. Sometimes he gets off the hook because people think he's a professional, but he's been mediocre and rarely adds anything of substance other than being captain-obvious. Watch for this the next time they're together (Monday). There will be entire innings where neither guy will expand on to what the other person has said.

Yeah, it's really bad. I'm not a big fan of Stone whatsoever, but I think Hawk started the problem by, like you said, basically not acknowledging Stone in a respectful way. At some point, Stone just gave up. The broadcast is brutal now. I don't anyone in the organization knows it. Everyone seems pretty clueless these days.

hawkjt
09-05-2011, 11:05 AM
I do not mind the broadcast team. I think the team's performance has dragged down the booth,just like everything else,tho. Hawk is dispirited,and Stoney is disgusted. They cannot fake it,and I doubt fans would want them to. Yet,they will not fire on the team,cus they are loyal to JR.

It is like anything related to the team, when the Sox win...everything is roses,when they lose everything is crap.

I believe that fans are way too sensitive to the interplay between announcers...they are doing 155 games, there has to be some needling.
Tension? Overactive imagination,imo.

Lip Man 1
09-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Hawk:

For what it's worth I've heard the relationship between the two is 'strained' and it does seem to come through on the broadcast.

Lip

Brian26
09-05-2011, 12:24 PM
I do not mind the broadcast team. I think the team's performance has dragged down the booth,just like everything else,tho. Hawk is dispirited,and Stoney is disgusted. They cannot fake it,and I doubt fans would want them to. Yet,they will not fire on the team,cus they are loyal to JR.

It is like anything related to the team, when the Sox win...everything is roses,when they lose everything is crap.

I believe that fans are way too sensitive to the interplay between announcers...they are doing 155 games, there has to be some needling.
Tension? Overactive imagination,imo.

Or, perhaps its an insightful observation that some people have made. The typical ignorant complaints about the tv side usually surround Hawk's homerism or the ridiculous idea that he sounds like Santo now, which isn't close to being true. The typical uneducated opinion on Stone is that he's "professional all the way." Quite honestly, Stone's offered more quality analysis on his weekly radio visit than he has on the actual game broadcasts this year. Harrelson, like I said, has chosen not to converse with Stone in the booth. It's an awkward dynamic that hasn't been there in previous years, even when everyone made fun of the Hawk/DJ "bickering". My comment about the radio side still rings true. DJ, as likeable as he is, is a god awful play-by-play guy. That fact would remain whether the Sox were in first place now or challenging the Twins and KC for last.

SI1020
09-05-2011, 12:38 PM
Hawk:

For what it's worth I've heard the relationship between the two is 'strained' and it does seem to come through on the broadcast.

Lip You don't have to be sitting in the booth with them. You don't even have to be that perceptive about human relations to notice the tension. I think at this point they are both resigned and just going through the motions. I've always liked Hawk but he absolutely needs to be the top dog in the booth and his partner has to acknowledge it. With Stone that is not going to happen, but at least he attempts to be professional about it. You're not going to get the vintage Stoneisms when he works with Hawk, but he's doing his best not to bait him or to respond in a confrontational manner. There isn't much that is working right with this franchise right now.

JB98
09-05-2011, 12:52 PM
Or, perhaps its an insightful observation that some people have made. The typical ignorant complaints about the tv side usually surround Hawk's homerism or the ridiculous idea that he sounds like Santo now, which isn't close to being true. The typical uneducated opinion on Stone is that he's "professional all the way." Quite honestly, Stone's offered more quality analysis on his weekly radio visit than he has on the actual game broadcasts this year. Harrelson, like I said, has chosen not to converse with Stone in the booth. It's an awkward dynamic that hasn't been there in previous years, even when everyone made fun of the Hawk/DJ "bickering". My comment about the radio side still rings true. DJ, as likeable as he is, is a god awful play-by-play guy. That fact would remain whether the Sox were in first place now or challenging the Twins and KC for last.

Bolded for truth. Stone's 2 p.m. Friday radio visit on The Score is a must listen for me. The actual game broadcasts, I don't feel like I'm missing much when I have the game on with muted sound while I'm at work.

slavko
09-05-2011, 01:37 PM
Bolded for truth. Stone's 2 p.m. Friday radio visit on The Score is a must listen for me. The actual game broadcasts, I don't feel like I'm missing much when I have the game on with muted sound while I'm at work.

So I'm not the only one.

TomBradley72
09-05-2011, 04:08 PM
The nightmarish season for the Sox in the 70's was 76'. They only won 64 games and were on the verge of becoming the Seattle Pilots, in large part because John Allyn ran the team in to the ground, and Charlie Finley, a Chicago guy, wanted to move the A's to Chicago. Bill Veek stepped in and put up 80% to keep the Sox in Chicago.



Allyn's last season as owner was 1975.

They were at risk of moving to Seattle- Veeck acquired the team before the 1976 season.

captain54
09-05-2011, 04:23 PM
Allyn's last season as owner was 1975.

They were at risk of moving to Seattle- Veeck acquired the team before the 1976 season.

I never said Allyn owned the team in 76'. I said that he ran it into the ground prior to Veeck taking ownership.

TomBradley72
09-05-2011, 04:36 PM
I never said Allyn owned the team in 76'. I said that he ran it into the ground prior to Veeck taking ownership.

Sorry misunderstood- they were at risk of going to Seattle between 1975 and 1976- not during or after.

kaufsox
09-06-2011, 10:25 AM
I hope the overturning of the firing means JR he is not supporting KW. And that the time to clean house is at the end of the year. Walker's contract is up in a month anyway, so what does firing do? (He needed to be fired years ago.) JR probably wants Walker to leave with some dignity after all this time with the Sox.

As much as I dislike Ozzie, KW is worse. He has butchered the organization from the top down all the way down through the minor league system.

This overturning of the firing sends a message of non-support to KW.

Have to admit if I was KW, JR reversing my decision would make me pretty upset and pretty much tell me that it was time to leave.

kaufsox
09-06-2011, 10:30 AM
You don't have to be sitting in the booth with them. You don't even have to be that perceptive about human relations to notice the tension. I think at this point they are both resigned and just going through the motions. I've always liked Hawk but he absolutely needs to be the top dog in the booth and his partner has to acknowledge it. With Stone that is not going to happen, but at least he attempts to be professional about it. You're not going to get the vintage Stoneisms when he works with Hawk, but he's doing his best not to bait him or to respond in a confrontational manner. There isn't much that is working right with this franchise right now.

I've thought this for a while and Hawk working with Wimpy really brought it home. Stone and Hawk just don't have a good chemistry. I think Stone works best with a real broadcaster where he can offer insight and not be second guessed or engaged in a discussion. Stone isn't one for the banter and old time stories where Wimpy seems to love that stuff. Hawk's best games this year are when he worked with Wimpy and when he worked alone. Having said that, I would rather have Hawk retire and be replaced with a pro and work with Stone.