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View Full Version : Bring back Ozzie for '12?


Hitmen77
08-31-2011, 09:28 PM
We're heading into the last month of yet another disappointing season and Ozzie publicly looking for an extension again.

Do want him back as White Sox manager in 2012?

VMSNS
08-31-2011, 09:32 PM
Where's the churro option?

BainesHOF
08-31-2011, 09:33 PM
Can I vote "Hell no!"?

MinnySoxFan
08-31-2011, 09:33 PM
**** no!!!

cub killer
08-31-2011, 09:33 PM
I think it's possible that he can learn from his mistakes and use more common sense in his managing. Yeah, I want him back next year making managerial decisions based on analysis and critical thought.

Brian26
08-31-2011, 09:34 PM
Yes, only because there would be nothing else to talk about in the Clubhouse since the only non-Ozzie discussion here in the last month is about 60 year old orange soda bottles.

Sargeant79
08-31-2011, 10:11 PM
I've supported Ozzie even when many in the masses have not over the past couple years. At this point though, it might be time.

jshanahanjr
08-31-2011, 10:15 PM
Ozzie and Kenny can both leave town. They both are immature ego maniacs.

A. Cavatica
08-31-2011, 11:10 PM
I think it's possible that he can learn from his mistakes and use more common sense in his managing. Yeah, I want him back next year making managerial decisions based on analysis and critical thought.

Ozzie doesn't learn from his mistakes. It's one of his hallmarks. (And I'm not even referring to the hidden ball trick.)

GlassSox
08-31-2011, 11:32 PM
Can I vote "Hell no!"?

I also wanted that option.

I think it's possible that he can learn from his mistakes and use more common sense in his managing. Yeah, I want him back next year making managerial decisions based on analysis and critical thought.

Ozzie previously stated he really doesn't look at data. That being said, what analysis and critical thought processes do you think that he will be performing that will guide him down the proper path?

He has now had almost a full season looking and Dunn & Rios and what has his analysis provided?

Boondock Saint
08-31-2011, 11:36 PM
Yes, only because there would be nothing else to talk about in the Clubhouse since the only non-Ozzie discussion here in the last month is about 60 year old orange soda bottles.

Au contraire! The ensuing bitchfest over who should take over and how candidate X is an idiot, steroid pusher, blowhard, etc., would be epic.

Hendu
09-01-2011, 01:49 AM
I think Ozzie's a decent manager, but it's time for a change. His schtick is getting old. Same goes for KW. I know, be careful what you wish for right? But how many teams have both a manager and GM who have stuck around as long as OG and KW, especially considering only two playoff appearances during their tenure?

cub killer
09-01-2011, 02:07 AM
Ozzie previously stated he really doesn't look at data. That being said, what analysis and critical thought processes do you think that he will be performing that will guide him down the proper path?

He has now had almost a full season looking and Dunn & Rios and what has his analysis provided?
Rhetorical question, right? Hopefully Ozzie can realize that when players suck for 5 months straight, they will probably suck that last month as well.

I wonder if there's a computer program to manage MLB teams. There is a standard formula, I believe Girardi adheres to it. I'd rather just use a sophisticated program as our manager. You punch in all the stats involved and the situation, and it'll return you a decision.

If that program doesn't exist yet, I'm sure someone here can code it.

russ99
09-01-2011, 07:53 AM
My vote is for a "Yes, unless Kenny's replacement wants his own manager" option.

Over By There
09-01-2011, 07:55 AM
I've probably supported Ozzie longer than most, but I think it's time. The public stumping for a new contract right now is inappropriate.

Moses_Scurry
09-01-2011, 08:03 AM
I wouldn't vote yes, but I won't be that upset if he is back. I feel like he still has the ability to lead the team to winning seasons and playoff appearances. His off the field antics have never bothered me much. If he is gone, I'll be sad, but I'll also be excited to see what the next era brings. Out of the past 7 sox managers, 5 have won Manager of the Year within their first couple years. It's my belief that that is because the foundation was in place those years, but the old manager was either stale (Manuel), stupid (Bevington), or the old manager left on his own decicpsion (Torborg). With the youth of the team playing well, I believe there is a good foundation in place now. If Ozzie gets fired and Dunn/Rios have rebound years, I could easily see the new manager continuing the Manager-of-the-year trend (not that it would be anything special he did).

Jerko
09-01-2011, 08:56 AM
There are times when I openly wonder if Ozzie actually watches any of the damn games. Some of his moves this year have been THAT bad. I don't think the Sox can win with him anymore. Yes Dunn and Rios have been monunental failures, but a few unexpected people have had good seasons too, and the young guys look good here at the end, so I don't go for the "he was dealt a bad hand" reasoning. He can make that hand better but refuses to do so. There are a few different lineups we can go with, with or without Q, that does not include Rios OR Dunn. When Q comes back, that makes it even easier to keep these 2 anchors benched. You can even throw Lillibridge in at 2nd when Q comes back. Pierre, DeAza, Q, Morel, Ramirez, Lillibridge Konerko AJ/Flowers platoon Vicideo DH. **** this lefty righty ****. Hell you can throw Lillibridge in center or right and DH Q or DeAza a few times if people need so much rest. VERY easy to keep Rios AND Dunn out of EVERY game, let alone have them both batting in the 9th freakin inning.

TheOldRoman
09-01-2011, 09:03 AM
Wait, some people seriously want Ozzie back but Kenny gone? That would be cataclysmic. Ozzie already causes this much trouble unabated and has this level of control against a GM who put together a roster that won him a World Series. You think Ozzie would be better under a rookie GM? You think Ozzie wouldn't walk all over statboy Hahn, especially with his mouthpiece Oney ripping Hahn several times about not being a man because he didn't play baseball? Here is my order of preference:

1) Ozzie to Florida - new manager, Kenny gone - new GM, Greg Walker blindfolded and dropped off in the Ozarks.
2) Ozzie to Florida - new manager, Kenny stays, Walker to head new baseball academy in Siberia.
3a) Kenny leaves - new GM, Ozzie stays and runs amok, Greg Walker continues to ruin players.
3b) I get kicked in the scrotum every day at noon for the next year.

Jerko
09-01-2011, 09:07 AM
Wait, some people seriously want Ozzie back but Kenny gone? That would be cataclysmic. Ozzie already causes this much trouble unabated and has this level of control against a GM who put together a roster that won him a World Series. You think Ozzie would be better under a rookie GM? You think Ozzie wouldn't walk all over statboy Hahn, especially with his mouthpiece Oney ripping Hahn several times about not being a man because he didn't play baseball? Here is my order of preference:

1) Ozzie to Florida - new manager, Kenny gone - new GM, Greg Walker blindfolded and dropped off in the Ozarks.
2) Ozzie to Florida - new manager, Kenny stays, Walker to head new baseball academy in Siberia.
3a) Kenny leaves - new GM, Ozzie stays and runs amok, Greg Walker continues to ruin players.
3b) I get kicked in the scrotum every day at noon for the next year.

I would move 3b above 3a but otherwise I agree

Dibbs
09-01-2011, 09:11 AM
1) Ozzie to Florida - new manager, Kenny gone - new GM, Greg Walker blindfolded and dropped off in the Ozarks.
2) Ozzie to Florida - new manager, Kenny stays, Walker to head new baseball academy in Siberia.
3a) Kenny leaves - new GM, Ozzie stays and runs amok, Greg Walker continues to ruin players.
3b) I get kicked in the scrotum every day at noon for the next year.

It is bad enough that someone could want Ozzie to stay. However, it is mind blowing that someone would pick that option 3A if they were in charge. I am fine with giving Kenny a shot with a new manager, but I wouldn't be sad if he left as well.

TheOldRoman
09-01-2011, 09:16 AM
I would move 3b above 3a but otherwise I agreeThe pending sense of doom I would get at 11:55 a.m. every day? That would probably feel how I felt when Ozzie sent Rios and Dunn to bat in the ninth yesterday.

doublem23
09-01-2011, 09:23 AM
It is bad enough that someone could want Ozzie to stay. However, it is mind blowing that someone would pick that option 3A if they were in charge. I am fine with giving Kenny a shot with a new manager, but I wouldn't be sad if he left as well.

I only am intereted in keeping Kenny around because, at this point, it's painfully obvious that the Sox are going to need to get creative with money and are going to need to find a few Phillip Humber and Alejandro de Aza-esque reclamation projects from other teams. Kenny's still got a knack for finding those guys, IMO, he's only striking out big time when he tries to make a big splash. Keep Kenny, tell him he's not allowed to sign or trade for any established veterans for over $5 million/year and see if we can ride out Rios, Peavy, and Dunn's contracts.

But, for the love of god, please fire Ozzie.

russ99
09-01-2011, 10:33 AM
Wait, some people seriously want Ozzie back but Kenny gone? That would be cataclysmic. Ozzie already causes this much trouble unabated and has this level of control against a GM who put together a roster that won him a World Series. You think Ozzie would be better under a rookie GM? You think Ozzie wouldn't walk all over statboy Hahn, especially with his mouthpiece Oney ripping Hahn several times about not being a man because he didn't play baseball? Here is my order of preference:

1) Ozzie to Florida - new manager, Kenny gone - new GM, Greg Walker blindfolded and dropped off in the Ozarks.
2) Ozzie to Florida - new manager, Kenny stays, Walker to head new baseball academy in Siberia.
3a) Kenny leaves - new GM, Ozzie stays and runs amok, Greg Walker continues to ruin players.
3b) I get kicked in the scrotum every day at noon for the next year.

I disagree with this assessment.

There's no indication that Ozzie couldn't work with a different GM, especially an outside GM. Someone who's not so opinionated at all times, and who Ozzie can work with other than being constantly at odds with him. It could be a breath of fresh air. When Ozzie and KW could work together, was Ozzie on a power trip, as some suggest could be the result of a new GM? No.

But that new GM should be given the chance to decide if Ozzie can stay or if he wants to hire his own manager. BTW - I can't see any situation where Greg Walker is the Sox hitting coach in 2012.

Since Kenny is the architect of this year's unmitigated failure, he should be the one to go first.

A. Cavatica
09-01-2011, 10:35 AM
Out of the past 7 sox managers, 5 have won Manager of the Year within their first couple years. It's my belief that that is because the foundation was in place those years, but the old manager was either stale (Manuel), stupid (Bevington), or the old manager left on his own decicpsion (Torborg).

Is it too late to suggest a replacement for "All In"?

I like "Stale and stupid".

Nellie_Fox
09-01-2011, 11:14 AM
There should have been a choice for "I'm okay either way." I'd add it, but adding it this long afterward, when so many people have already cast their votes, makes it meaningless (even more meaningless than an internet poll that lets everyone see how you voted.)

Lip Man 1
09-01-2011, 11:20 AM
Moses:

Jeff Torborg did not leave on his own, Schueler forced him out wanting to hire his own guy despite how well the team played under Torborg.

Read the interview with Jeff for WSI.

Lip

voodoochile
09-01-2011, 12:34 PM
If they win the division, absolutely, but if not I'm okay either way. I don't blame this whole year on Ozzie, just think we hit a perfect storm of bad.

wassagstdu
09-01-2011, 12:44 PM
It is bad enough that someone could want Ozzie to stay. However, it is mind blowing that someone would pick that option 3A if they were in charge. I am fine with giving Kenny a shot with a new manager, but I wouldn't be sad if he left as well.

I dread the thought of KW running amok without Ozzie to push back. Left to his own devices he will fill the roster with ex-football players and 1B/DH types.
1. Ozzie stays, I stay
2. Ozzie goes, KW stays, I stay only if Ozzie is replaced by Joe McEwing or Jeff Torborg.
3. Both Ozzie and KW go, same as 2.
4. Any scenario involving Tony LaRussa, I am looking for a new team.

enurb
09-01-2011, 12:49 PM
Voted yes, bring him back. Scarred by past managers (Bevington and Manuel come to mind) and don't see a better alternative.

voodoochile
09-01-2011, 12:56 PM
Voted yes, bring him back. Scarred by past managers (Bevington and Manuel come to mind) and don't see a better alternative.

If they canned Ozzie, I think they'd hire Cora. I actually think eventually he takes over anyway. I see Cora as a guy with a similar philosophy on the way to run the team without Ozzie's foot in mouth disease.

doublem23
09-01-2011, 12:58 PM
I dread the thought of KW running amok without Ozzie to push back. Left to his own devices he will fill the roster with ex-football players and 1B/DH types..

Yeah exactly what we need more of are guys like Mark Kotsay DH'ing and Dewayne Wise leading off. Brilliant!

JB98
09-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Sometimes, you just need a new voice. That time has arrived on the South Side.

We need changes in the front office, in the dugout and on the field.

Three straight years of no playoffs is very disappointing given the size of the payroll and the overall weakness of the AL Central.

kittle42
09-01-2011, 01:09 PM
Sometimes, you just need a new voice. That time has arrived on the South Side.

We need changes in the front office, in the dugout and on the field.

Three straight years of no playoffs is very disappointing given the size of the payroll and the overall weakness of the AL Central.

Correct. Some change needs to be made, and preferably, the change is in both the managerial and general managerial positions.

Jerko
09-01-2011, 01:15 PM
No.

Lip Man 1
09-01-2011, 01:17 PM
Keep in mind Manager Gandhi was let go for not making the playoffs in three years and according to the stat posted by another fan earlier here, he only averaged about two wins a season less over the course of his career than Ozzie is right now.

Lip

TheOldRoman
09-01-2011, 01:20 PM
I dread the thought of KW running amok without Ozzie to push back. Left to his own devices he will fill the roster with ex-football players and 1B/DH types.I know, that would totally suck if Kenny put together a great bullpen, an excellent rotation and a more than competant offense again. Players have a history of performing much, much better? Well, they are probably playing like crap because Williams acquired them. He is obviously cursed. KW is best when he defers to Ozzie, such as keeping Wise around to bat leadoff and making Kotsay the DH instead of Thome.

kittle42
09-01-2011, 01:25 PM
I know, that would totally suck if Kenny put together a great bullpen, an excellent rotation and a more than competant offense again. Players have a history of performing much, much better? Well, they are probably playing like crap because Williams acquired them. He is obviously cursed. KW is best when he defers to Ozzie, such as keeping Wise around to bat leadoff and making Kotsay the DH instead of Thome.

Ozzie and Kenny are both too flawed to stick around. Why must this consistently be an either/or argument?

Nellie_Fox
09-01-2011, 01:26 PM
You guys don't really think JR will fire KW, do you? He treats him like a son.

kittle42
09-01-2011, 01:28 PM
You guys don't really think JR will fire KW, do you? He treats him like a son.

Yeah, this organization is mind-boggling.

I do think the recent public events with Ozzie are possibly a way to get him out without losing any face at all. But nothing similar has happened with Kenny.

PKalltheway
09-01-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm fine with either decision, to be honest. I wouldn't be terribly upset if Ozzie is gone, but I wouldn't be all that upset if he stays.

Ozzie isn't exactly the "be-all, end-all" problem with this team, but he certainly isn't helping matters. If the Sox hired a different manager for next year, and the team performs better, I don't think it will be because "X" manager is better than Ozzie. They'll need Dunn and Rios to start picking up the slack and they'll need to avoid yet another early-season slump.

On the other hand, perhaps the team may need a different voice. Either way, I wouldn't be all that upset if he left or if he stays. Besides, the players are the ones who make the manager look good. If Dunn hits at his career norms this year and if Rios hit like he did last year, things would be a lot different. It's just been an incredibly frustrating season and Ozzie perhaps is feeling a lot more of that frustration.

Hitmen77
09-01-2011, 03:16 PM
You guys don't really think JR will fire KW, do you? He treats him like a son.

Doesn't he treat Ozzie the same way, though? Serious question. JR is a very loyal man and it seems like he's very fond of both KW and Ozzie.

Does that mean, there's a good chance both will be back next year? Or are the Sox at a point where something has to give?

WhiteSox5187
09-01-2011, 03:51 PM
I think both Kenny and Ozzie should be gone. I honestly think thought that Ozzie might do a good job in Florida.

WhiteSox5187
09-01-2011, 03:53 PM
You guys don't really think JR will fire KW, do you? He treats him like a son.

Probably not but one can hope. Kenny would never have lasted THIS long with other organizations. I don't think Kenny would have lasted to 2005 with any other organization.

hawkjt
09-01-2011, 04:30 PM
I want to finish this season before making this call.
If they come back and win this division, it will impact my call.
I want to see how the team plays the rest of the way.
If there is any sign that Ozzie has lost the team,then that makes it easy.
If they battle their arses off,right to the end, that makes it tougher.

This could be a benchmark point in the season..going to Detroit.
If Verlander hits PK, I hope Danks returns the favor to Miggy,and if they brawl,so be it. Tired of Detroit hitting our guys.

Lip Man 1
09-01-2011, 04:48 PM
I'm tired of basically everybody in the league hitting the Sox and the Sox doing nothing about it in return.

Lip

Dibbs
09-01-2011, 04:48 PM
It's mind bottling that close to 20% of people on here actually want to keep Ozzie. My thoughts are all trapped up, like in a bottle.

Dibbs
09-01-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm tired of basically everybody in the league hitting the Sox and the Sox doing nothing about it in return.

Lip

I agree. Tough guy Ozzie never retaliates against the opposition. However, he doesn't hesitate to get tough and put down guys like Kenny, Gordon, Dayan, etc. It is really unbelievable anyone would vote to keep Ozzie, and continue to have him on our side.

SoxSpeed22
09-01-2011, 04:51 PM
I think it is clear that Kenny and Ozzie cannot co-exist. The best solution would be for Ozzie to go to Florida, Kenny gets bumped up to team President and someone else takes over at GM (Rick Hahn or anyone else) and manager (anyone).

Hitmen77
09-01-2011, 04:53 PM
I'm tired of basically everybody in the league hitting the Sox and the Sox doing nothing about it in return.

Lip

On the bright side, the HBP total for our batters will probably drop after they trade Quentin as a cost cutting measure (due to being saddled with fat, untradeable contracts).

Vernam
09-01-2011, 06:33 PM
I have defended him for years but have now concluded he is a person of low character, just like the screw-loose son and hack columnist he hides behind. He can't leave soon enough for me.

Until yesterday I'd have said this mess was at least half the GM's fault, but now I have new respect for Kenny's restraint in having dealt with this person as long as he has. This denouement has to break Jerry Reinsdorf's heart. He deserved better from both of them, but at least Kenny Williams's commitment to winning has never been in doubt. Even the awful contracts -- which the vast majority of fans supported (with the exception of Rios) -- were the result of over-reaching, not of timidity (which is the one thing Sox fans can't abide in a GM). Whether or not KW deserves a chance to right the ship, I wouldn't blame JR, at his age, for bringing him back rather than starting all over from scratch.

If that's the case, I'll support them both because, even with the mistakes, they have earned my respect. That's something I'll never again say about Ozzie, a hypocrite who talks about respecting the game and then does the opposite.

Vernam

slavko
09-01-2011, 06:53 PM
If they canned Ozzie, I think they'd hire Cora. I actually think eventually he takes over anyway. I see Cora as a guy with a similar philosophy on the way to run the team without Ozzie's foot in mouth disease.

Look him up. I think he has an MBA from Vanderbilt. Yes. He also got into an argument with a couple of fans in his minor league days and they came back with friends and nearly knifed him to death. So he may be capable of saying the wrong thing too. At times.

ktssox
09-01-2011, 06:55 PM
Wait, some people seriously want Ozzie back but Kenny gone? That would be cataclysmic. Ozzie already causes this much trouble unabated and has this level of control against a GM who put together a roster that won him a World Series. You think Ozzie would be better under a rookie GM? You think Ozzie wouldn't walk all over statboy Hahn, especially with his mouthpiece Oney ripping Hahn several times about not being a man because he didn't play baseball?

I voted for that option. The style of team the two want are completely opposite, and I happen to like Ozzie's style better. That's not to say that a new manager would give Oz what he wanted, but there's at least more of a chance he gets it, and I'd like to see Ozzie at the helm of that team.

WhiteSox5187
09-01-2011, 07:31 PM
Look him up. I think he has an MBA from Vanderbilt. Yes. He also got into an argument with a couple of fans in his minor league days and they came back with friends and nearly knifed him to death. So he may be capable of saying the wrong thing too. At times.

According to Wikipedia that incident occurred when he was 21 and I really think that reflects more on the fans than on him.

Red Barchetta
09-01-2011, 07:40 PM
You guys don't really think JR will fire KW, do you? He treats him like a son.

Agreed. Plus, KW has never been given the opportunity to pick his manager. I think he will have that opportunity soon.

WhiteSox5187
09-01-2011, 08:07 PM
Agreed. Plus, KW has never been given the opportunity to pick his manager. I think he will have that opportunity soon.

Ozzie WAS his manager.

russ99
09-01-2011, 08:17 PM
Look him up. I think he has an MBA from Vanderbilt. Yes. He also got into an argument with a couple of fans in his minor league days and they came back with friends and nearly knifed him to death. So he may be capable of saying the wrong thing too. At times.

Since when does the qualifications for a major league manager include "not saying the wrong thing"?

Unbelievable. These guys have a mike shoved in their face multiple times a day, what do you expect?

If Ozzie goes and Kenny stays, I hope you all enjoy your nice quiet timid manager, who does whatever Kenny wants him to all the way back to the second division.

Domeshot17
09-01-2011, 08:31 PM
Since when does the qualifications for a major league manager include "not saying the wrong thing"?

Unbelievable. These guys have a mike shoved in their face multiple times a day, what do you expect?

If Ozzie goes and Kenny stays, I hope you all enjoy your nice quiet timid manager, who does whatever Kenny wants him to all the way back to the second division.

So wait, If Kenny gets to pick his manager, we will not finish in first? That is such a big drop from never being in first lately!

Also, Plenty of Good Managers don't say stupid crap all the time. I can only think of 1 who does.

kittle42
09-01-2011, 08:53 PM
Unbelievable. These guys have a mike shoved in their face multiple times a day, what do you expect?

Logic!

DirtySox
09-01-2011, 08:54 PM
If Ozzie goes and Kenny stays, I hope you all enjoy your nice quiet timid manager, who does whatever Kenny wants him to all the way back to the second division.


:facepalm:

Daver
09-01-2011, 09:00 PM
Unbelievable. These guys have a mike shoved in their face multiple times a day, what do you expect?


Maybe act like a professional?

Boondock Saint
09-01-2011, 09:04 PM
Maybe act like a professional?

Right? How often do you hear Charlie Manuel, Joe Maddon or Dusty Baker talking about fans getting drunk and pissing on statues?

DonnieDarko
09-01-2011, 09:09 PM
I think it is clear that Kenny and Ozzie cannot co-exist. The best solution would be for Ozzie to go to Florida, Kenny gets bumped up to team President and someone else takes over at GM (Rick Hahn or anyone else) and manager (anyone).

I could see this happening for sure.

Brian26
09-01-2011, 09:09 PM
Unbelievable. These guys have a mike shoved in their face multiple times a day, what do you expect?

:ohno

Frater Perdurabo
09-01-2011, 09:18 PM
Thanks for 2005, Ozzie.

But even if the Sox come back and win the 2011 World Series, it's time for Ozzie to leave.

Red Barchetta
09-01-2011, 09:50 PM
Ozzie WAS his manager.

...because JR was twisting his arm. Ozzie was not Kenny's first choice.

tstrike2000
09-01-2011, 10:23 PM
After all of the rants, "quotable" soundbytes, loser tweeting sons, lefty/righty match-ups, playing guys out of position, bizarre lineup choices, prolonged slumps, not winning a weak division in multiple years, and contract extension talk during a disappointing season are some of the reasons why a change after the season might be for the best.

Rikirk
09-01-2011, 11:30 PM
I want something new...

So I vote no.

Nellie_Fox
09-02-2011, 12:34 AM
Thanks for 2005, Ozzie.

But even if the Sox come back and win the 2011 World Series, it's time for Ozzie to leave.If that happens, there's no way in hell he's gone.

pmck003
09-02-2011, 01:17 AM
I voted no. I actually think ozzie did a good job managing this year, but he does seem stale to me and sometimes a new attitude is what is needed to get guys going. I'd vote yes if Walker isn't included for much the same reason though I don't have an informed opinion on what he has done.

voodoochile
09-02-2011, 01:26 AM
If that happens, there's no way in hell he's gone.

The mere fact that anyone would still WANT Ozzie gone if they were to win their second WS in the last 6 years and only their 4th ever I find simply amazing.

Of course we are Sox fans, we wouldn't know a good thing if sat in our laps and wiggled.

If the Sox win another WS this year, they can crown Ozzie king and hand him a lifetime contract and they should.

sullythered
09-02-2011, 02:16 AM
I want Ozzie and Rick Hahn next year. I think Guillen would be much harder to replace than Williams.

Truth is, whatever was said in the media, as soon as Ozzie got Viciedo and De Aza on his roster, he started playing them immediately and regularly. I think Ozzie acts like he's full of **** to help his team and change focus, and KW is actually full of ****.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2011, 06:06 AM
If that happens, there's no way in hell he's gone.

The mere fact that anyone would still WANT Ozzie gone if they were to win their second WS in the last 6 years and only their 4th ever I find simply amazing.

Of course we are Sox fans, we wouldn't know a good thing if sat in our laps and wiggled.

If the Sox win another WS this year, they can crown Ozzie king and hand him a lifetime contract and they should.

While my heart hopes they munt a comeback and make the playoffs, my head says it's not happening this year. I think I am reasonably sure I won't have to eat crow, and so my statement will remain what it was meant to be: hyperbole.

Bucky F. Dent
09-02-2011, 07:56 AM
"Aloha!" means goodbye!

That said - to follow up on the current line of thought - if Ozzie wins the World Series this fall, he will be allowed to stay here as long as Jerry owns the team.

russ99
09-02-2011, 08:27 AM
After all of the rants, "quotable" soundbytes, loser tweeting sons, lefty/righty match-ups, playing guys out of position, bizarre lineup choices, prolonged slumps, not winning a weak division in multiple years, and contract extension talk during a disappointing season are some of the reasons why a change after the season might be for the best.

And all of those other than lefty/right matchups have little to do with his actual managing, which is why the man has his job.

The rest is just noise and has little impact on the club.

Who did he play out of position, and what "bizarre" lineup choices did he make other than people not wanting Dunn and Rios to play?

Hitmen77
09-02-2011, 08:36 AM
Maybe act like a professional?

:thumbsup: What a concept, eh?

Right? How often do you hear Charlie Manuel, Joe Maddon or Dusty Baker talking about fans getting drunk and pissing on statues?

Yeah, but can you blame Ozzie? Haven't you heard? White Sox fans are the worst in MLB! If don't believe me, then read the Attendance vs. Payroll thread in Talking Baseball and you'll realize that Sox fans are UNIQUE in refusing to support their team even after spending big bucks on free agents. We're the only ones who still call ownership "cheap" even after big FA signing and we're the only ones who announce that we'll refuse to support the team until we see results. This is soooo true, that this should be stickied on the front of this forum!

I mean, what do expect Ozzie to say about losers like us? Give us hell, Ozzie!:rolleyes:

doublem23
09-02-2011, 08:44 AM
And all of those other than lefty/right matchups have little to do with his actual managing, which is why the man has his job.

Yeah, but they don't help. I'd be a lot more willing to deal with Ozzie's defensive rants or his ******* sons a lot more if the Sox were consistently winning. Since 2007, the Sox are barely above .500 and have only been competitive when the division comes down to their levels.

In Ozzie's tenure, the Sox are 668-601, a .526 winning percentage. They were 500-471 during Jerry Manuel's 6 years here. That's a .515 winning percentage. This difference translates into about two extra wins over 162 games. Furthermore, the Sox average divisional finish under Ozzie is 2.3. Under Manuel, it was 2.0. And I thought we were all under the impression that Manuel was more or less, a crappy manager, and yet here we are, the Sox under Manuel were roughly as successful in the regular season as they were under Ozzie.

Domeshot17
09-02-2011, 09:38 AM
And all of those other than lefty/right matchups have little to do with his actual managing, which is why the man has his job.

The rest is just noise and has little impact on the club.

Who did he play out of position, and what "bizarre" lineup choices did he make other than people not wanting Dunn and Rios to play?

Rob Mackowiak says hello

tstrike2000
09-02-2011, 09:49 AM
And all of those other than lefty/right matchups have little to do with his actual managing, which is why the man has his job.

The rest is just noise and has little impact on the club.

Who did he play out of position, and what "bizarre" lineup choices did he make other than people not wanting Dunn and Rios to play?

Matchups have little to do with actual mananging? I disagree. Whether it's a small part or not, it's one of Ozzie's favorite things to do. There have been times when he's burned through the bullpen just to get the matchup he wants or not hitting the hot hand because the hitter bats from the wrong side of the plate.

This year he hasn't really played anyone out of position because the positions are set. However, it's been a problem in the past. Playing mark Teahen at 3B before we got rid of him is just one example. And, yes, I find it bizarre that the lineup has consistantly had two of the worst hitters in baseball right in the middle of the lineup.

I think the difference that could've been made this year could very well be the difference between a division title.

TomBradley72
09-02-2011, 10:49 AM
I voted for him to leave.

I think 8 years is a pretty good tenure for a manager- I just think his act has run it's course here and I can't see more years of the conflict with him and KW who are obviously not on the same page, the b.s. drama with his son's tweeter account, and his constant defensive rants vs. the fans, media, etc.

The organization needs a culture change- we're stuck with some long term contracts we can't move-so the best chance at an improvement is a new manager with a new coaching staff (but with hopefully Don Cooper staying).

TomBradley72
09-02-2011, 10:56 AM
Matchups have little to do with actual mananging? I disagree. Whether it's a small part or not, it's one of Ozzie's favorite things to do. There have been times when he's burned through the bullpen just to get the matchup he wants or not hitting the hot hand because the hitter bats from the wrong side of the plate.

This year he hasn't really played anyone out of position because the positions are set. However, it's been a problem in the past. Playing mark Teahen at 3B before we got rid of him is just one example. And, yes, I find it bizarre that the lineup has consistantly had two of the worst hitters in baseball right in the middle of the lineup.

I think the difference that could've been made this year could very well be the difference between a division title.

I'll give him some credit for keeping the team in the hunt.

Some errors in judgement I've seen:


Should have moved to Santos as closer more quickly in April- stayed with Thornton too long- we may have picked up a few wins here would put right there with Detroit.
Has stayed with Rios/Dunn way too long- Dunn should have been sitting vs. lefties a long time ago- this cost us a few wins.
Misreading/underestimating the positive impact that mixing in the younger players like Lillibridge and De Aza can make- the young guys will have a big game (even Morel at times)- but then they sit the next game.

cards press box
09-02-2011, 11:00 AM
Today, Joe Cowley speculates (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/cowley/7375963-417/white-sox-ken-williams-denies-rift-with-ozzie-guillen-again.html) that if Ozzie goes and KW stays, Daryl Boston would be the new Sox manager. I can't tell if he's joking.

tstrike2000
09-02-2011, 11:04 AM
Today, Joe Cowley speculates (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/cowley/7375963-417/white-sox-ken-williams-denies-rift-with-ozzie-guillen-again.html) that if Ozzie goes and KW stays, Daryl Boston would be the new Sox manager. I can't tell if he's joking.

Along with Joe Borchard as the hitting coach.

kittle42
09-02-2011, 11:07 AM
Today, Joe Cowley speculates (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/cowley/7375963-417/white-sox-ken-williams-denies-rift-with-ozzie-guillen-again.html) that if Ozzie goes and KW stays, Daryl Boston would be the new Sox manager. I can't tell if he's joking.

Don't you know it is impossible for someone who was not a player with the Sox to ever get hired as a coach/manager/anything anymore?

I think the new vendors this year at the Cell may have actually been former September callups.

Lip Man 1
09-02-2011, 11:10 AM
Hitmen:

Remember we're the worst fans in baseball just ask Chris Berman (and some others who pontificate right here as a matter of fact...constantly.)

Most fans who have posted on this, this season are crediting JR with having the stones to go out and give the Sox a fighting chance and I agree with that completely.

He gets no blame for what's happened this year outside of maybe sabotaging his investment by failing to do something (and it probably should have been done last year after "twittergate") when there was still time.

It's interesting that Kenny himself more than once has phrased the issue properly in my opinion (i.e. "we haven't played well enough to earn our fans patronage...) yet some still insist that the "proper" :rolleyes: things for fans to do is go out and support mediocrity or garbage.

SHAME on all those Sox fans who failed to support the team in 1969 and 1970! A pox on all their houses...LOL.

Seriously if some folks can't grasp the concept now, if they are so intellectually obtuse that they don't even know the history of their own franchise in these matters, they would have gone right off the deep end on this back in the day.

But to each his own I guess.

Lip

chisoxjtrain
09-02-2011, 11:17 AM
Today, Joe Cowley speculates (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/cowley/7375963-417/white-sox-ken-williams-denies-rift-with-ozzie-guillen-again.html) that if Ozzie goes and KW stays, Daryl Boston would be the new Sox manager. I can't tell if he's joking.

Cowley is getting torched on 670 the Score right now by Matt Spiegel for inserting himself into the story. It is awesome.

Lip Man 1
09-02-2011, 11:24 AM
Spiegel made the same point on Chicago Tribune Live! on Tuesday when this first broke.

Lip

Goose
09-02-2011, 11:24 AM
I'll give him some credit for keeping the team in the hunt.

Some errors in judgement I've seen:


Should have moved to Santos as closer more quickly in April- stayed with Thornton too long- we may have picked up a few wins here would put right there with Detroit.
Has stayed with Rios/Dunn way too long- Dunn should have been sitting vs. lefties a long time ago- this cost us a few wins.
Misreading/underestimating the positive impact that mixing in the younger players like Lillibridge and De Aza can make- the young guys will have a big game (even Morel at times)- but then they sit the next game.


I agree with most of this:

1) This is the least of Ozzie's blunders, in my opinion. Yeah, he could have gone to Santos earlier, but the begining of the season is traditionally where these things are sorted out. I can look past it (although I do agree with your analysis).

2) 99% agree. The only thing I dont agree with is sitting Dunn vs Lefties sooner. I think he should have sat Dunn vs. Lefties AND Righties sooner. A LOT sooner!

3) 100% correct! The sitting of the hot players is inexcusable (they don't need a day off, they are not tired). Ride the hot players, Ozzie! I just don't get it.

Lip Man 1
09-02-2011, 11:31 AM
Goose:

I'd also include that for the past five consecutive seasons the Sox have gotten off to (at best) a mediocre start in the first six weeks of the season.

Five straight years indicates something isn't right coming out of spring training. What is Ozzie and his staff doing or not doing that is helping this continue?

You can't keep playing from behind all the time and expect to have anything left in the tank after August.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
09-03-2011, 01:12 AM
...because JR was twisting his arm. Ozzie was not Kenny's first choice.

Please, what evidence do you have of that? I can remember Kenny saying that once Ozzie got into an argument with him in his interview he knew he had his guy. I have also heard the story where JR even told Kenny "You know this guy is going to say stuff that will drive us nuts," and Kenny said "I know, but he's the guy we want."

rpmorri
09-03-2011, 01:32 AM
IMO, Ozzie, while guilty of stupid decisions, isn't the main problem.

I am not watching this team again while Williams is the GM. Get this idiot OUT. NOW.

central44
09-03-2011, 02:45 AM
Goose:

I'd also include that for the past five consecutive seasons the Sox have gotten off to (at best) a mediocre start in the first six weeks of the season.

Five straight years indicates something isn't right coming out of spring training. What is Ozzie and his staff doing or not doing that is helping this continue?

You can't keep playing from behind all the time and expect to have anything left in the tank after August.

Lip

Yeah that's been a pretty maddening trend to follow.

Just imagine where the Sox would have been these past few years if they were even mediocre during those early months as opposed to flat out awful. 2010 and this year, especially.

central44
09-03-2011, 02:56 AM
Today, Joe Cowley speculates (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/cowley/7375963-417/white-sox-ken-williams-denies-rift-with-ozzie-guillen-again.html) that if Ozzie goes and KW stays, Daryl Boston would be the new Sox manager. I can't tell if he's joking.

Wow. That is one of the worst things I have ever read from a professional columnist. Truly, truly terrible. I'm glad Cowley got called out yesterday--after reading that train wreck of an article, he completey deserves it!

Whenever Ozzie eventually does leave the Sox, it is going to be like a very ugly breakup.

Nelson Foxtrot
09-03-2011, 04:18 AM
Please, what evidence do you have of that? I can remember Kenny saying that once Ozzie got into an argument with him in his interview he knew he had his guy. I have also heard the story where JR even told Kenny "You know this guy is going to say stuff that will drive us nuts," and Kenny said "I know, but he's the guy we want."

That was the general consensus with Sox fans at the time of the hiring. The story in the media was that Williams wanted his former manager Cito Gaston, but Reinsdorf insisted on Guillen, with some speculation that Ozzie's willingness to accept less money may have played a role. Even before Jerry Manuel was fired, local and national media were reporting that Gaston would be the next Sox manager. Williams spoke about how Gaston was both a great manager and a father figure/mentor to him personally. Most people were surprised KW wasn't fired along with Manuel. They thought a GM likely on thin ice with a veteran team, high payroll, and high expectations competing in a market with a team 5 outs from the World Series would hire a back-to-back championship-winning manager who was beloved by his players, and with whom Williams had a personal relationship, over somebody who never managed. Also, KW just fired a guy who, like Guillen, had been hired as a first-time manager right after winning a championship as a Marlins coach. As WSI tells me every day, insanity is doing the same thing...yada yada yada.

On the other hand, KW was looking for somebody to light a fire under a talented team that even some players (Everett for one) said just plain quit in September. Gaston had a reputation for being more laid-back than Manuel and doing next to nothing as a manager, such as not pinch-hitting until summer one season. One criticism was that he let his defensively-impaired veterans dictate where they wanted to play, and it's possible we may have seen CF Pierre and LF Dunn this year under Gaston. He was also hated by much of the Toronto media, which only got worse when he accused them of racism. He also hadn't managed (or coached) in years.

If KW says Ozzie was his choice, there are good reasons to believe him, and I do. However, I can also see why others don't, especially since the belief here and in both the local and national media at the time was that he was overruled.

Hitmen77
09-03-2011, 09:37 AM
Goose:

I'd also include that for the past five consecutive seasons the Sox have gotten off to (at best) a mediocre start in the first six weeks of the season.

Five straight years indicates something isn't right coming out of spring training. What is Ozzie and his staff doing or not doing that is helping this continue?

You can't keep playing from behind all the time and expect to have anything left in the tank after August.

Lip

Agreed. ...and before anyone replies as such, this does not mean we want them to win more spring training games. Yes, we're all agreed that W-L total in Arizona isn't the goal. That being said, something must be wrong for this team to fall flat on its face year after year.

If JR is worried about sagging fan support, you're going to have a hard time getting fans to turn out when the team is 6 or 7 game out by the end of April every year. And, no, that's not because Sox fans aren't supportive - it's just reality for just about any team (except maybe the Cubs and a few others) who does this year after year.

Jerko
09-04-2011, 07:33 AM
Lol in Gonzales column ozzie says if they (fans) think the Sox are horse**** because of his contact demands, "**** them, too". No, I think they're horse**** because of who their manager is. Feel better now Ozzie? can I vote more than once?

http://mobile.chicagotribune.com/p.p?m=b&a=rp&id=795477&postId=795477&postUserId=54&sessionToken=&catId=5557&curAbsIndex=2&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%2523 desc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%253A54%26DFC%3Dcat1%252Ccat2% 252Ccat3%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%26DQ%3DsectionId%25 3A5557%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D3

October26
09-04-2011, 09:10 AM
Lol in Gonzales column ozzie says if they (fans) think the Sox are horse**** because of his contact demands, "**** them, too". No, I think they're horse**** because of who their manager is. Feel better now Ozzie? can I vote more than once?

http://mobile.chicagotribune.com/p.p?m=b&a=rp&id=795477&postId=795477&postUserId=54&sessionToken=&catId=5557&curAbsIndex=2&resultsUrl=DID%3D6%26DFCL%3D1000%26DSB%3Drank%2523 desc%26DBFQ%3DuserId%253A54%26DFC%3Dcat1%252Ccat2% 252Ccat3%26DL.w%3D%26DL.d%3D10%26DQ%3DsectionId%25 3A5557%26DPS%3D0%26DPL%3D3


I really don't understand Ozzie's need to lash out at us Sox fans, especially after yesterday's crushing loss. Ozzie's comments feel like salt being poured into a very deep wound.

central44
09-04-2011, 09:43 AM
I really don't understand Ozzie's need to lash out at us Sox fans, especially after yesterday's crushing loss. Ozzie's comments feel like salt being poured into a very deep wound.

I think he only meant it like "I don't care what anyone else thinks." He said it in a bad way, but unlike his comment about fans ****ing on statues, I don't think this one was really intended to lash out at the fans.

Still though, why is it so hard for him to just act professional?

JDub35
09-04-2011, 09:47 AM
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...

SI1020
09-04-2011, 09:57 AM
I really don't understand Ozzie's need to lash out at us Sox fans, especially after yesterday's crushing loss. Ozzie's comments feel like salt being poured into a very deep wound. Yes and the Ozzie brigade here will defend him no matter what. What organization allows its manager to repeatedly savage its fan base like the Sox do? I've never seen a human being so enabled by so many the way Ozzie is.

voodoochile
09-04-2011, 11:14 AM
Yes and the Ozzie brigade here will defend him no matter what. What organization allows its manager to repeatedly savage its fan base like the Sox do? I've never seen a human being so enabled by so many the way Ozzie is.

I think Ozzie's managerial skills are better than many on these boards. However, the constant crap that comes out of his mouth I admit is getting old. This current comment makes me wonder if he's intentionally trying to get fired so he can collect his money and still walk away. He has to know he's setting off a bomb again and this would be the wrong time to do it.

In either case, if he keeps it up he's gonna force JR's hand.

Lip Man 1
09-04-2011, 11:31 AM
Voodoo:

That would be the logical conclusion but with this organization, who knows?

Well see in about a month I guess.

Lip

Dan H
09-04-2011, 12:45 PM
I think Ozzie's managerial skills are better than many on these boards. However, the constant crap that comes out of his mouth I admit is getting old. This current comment makes me wonder if he's intentionally trying to get fired so he can collect his money and still walk away. He has to know he's setting off a bomb again and this would be the wrong time to do it.

In either case, if he keeps it up he's gonna force JR's hand.

I find Guillen's strategy odd. It seems to me that he is trying to force JR's hand in keeping him. But the strategy either way doesn't make sense. First, if I was the head man, I wouldn't like my hand forced one way or another. Secondly, if I was Guillen, I wouldn't to leave with bitterness. Is he going to be that marketable with this public bloodletting happening? Another ownership may think twice about hiring if they think he will be vindictive.

voodoochile
09-04-2011, 01:49 PM
I find Guillen's strategy odd. It seems to me that he is trying to force JR's hand in keeping him. But the strategy either way doesn't make sense. First, if I was the head man, I wouldn't like my hand forced one way or another. Secondly, if I was Guillen, I wouldn't to leave with bitterness. Is he going to be that marketable with this public bloodletting happening? Another ownership may think twice about hiring if they think he will be vindictive.

How many teams can afford to have a manager who pisses off the fan base regularly? I mean the Sox at least have a large devoted fan base to draw from and a bunch of fairweather bandwagon jumpers who show up whenever they have a good season. Much of that is simply due to the size of the metro area, but a city with 1M people and a single team might not want to take a chance that Ozzie will chase off a bunch of the more dedicated fans with his constant hoof in mouth disease. Comes a time Ozzie is going to end up being his own worst enemy. If he really loves the game as much as he appears to and constantly claims he really needs to learn how to shut his ****ing mouth from time to time or he's going to eventually find himself on the outside looking in.

Frater Perdurabo
09-04-2011, 08:22 PM
How many teams can afford to have a manager who pisses off the fan base regularly?

If he's going to say things that piss off the fan base, he at least ought to win more games and more division titles than he has.

Daver
09-04-2011, 08:31 PM
I think Ozzie's managerial skills are better than many on these boards. However, the constant crap that comes out of his mouth I admit is getting old. This current comment makes me wonder if he's intentionally trying to get fired so he can collect his money and still walk away. He has to know he's setting off a bomb again and this would be the wrong time to do it.

In either case, if he keeps it up he's gonna force JR's hand.

Ozzie Guillen manages like my ass chews gum, and always has.

voodoochile
09-04-2011, 08:35 PM
Ozzie Guillen manages like my ass chews gum, and always has.

With or without dentures?

Daver
09-04-2011, 08:39 PM
With or without dentures?

Your question is not germane to my statement.

Tragg
09-04-2011, 08:55 PM
Today, Joe Cowley speculates (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/cowley/7375963-417/white-sox-ken-williams-denies-rift-with-ozzie-guillen-again.html) that if Ozzie goes and KW stays, Daryl Boston would be the new Sox manager. I can't tell if he's joking.

Pretty mean spirited article. That one was Moronotti worthy.

russ99
09-04-2011, 09:07 PM
How many teams can afford to have a manager who pisses off the fan base regularly? I mean the Sox at least have a large devoted fan base to draw from and a bunch of fairweather bandwagon jumpers who show up whenever they have a good season. Much of that is simply due to the size of the metro area, but a city with 1M people and a single team might not want to take a chance that Ozzie will chase off a bunch of the more dedicated fans with his constant hoof in mouth disease. Comes a time Ozzie is going to end up being his own worst enemy. If he really loves the game as much as he appears to and constantly claims he really needs to learn how to shut his ****ing mouth from time to time or he's going to eventually find himself on the outside looking in.

Who really takes this stuff literally? So much of press in baseball is time wasters and column fillers. Do you really think this has any impact on the day to day managing of the club?

I prefer a good manager, outspoken or not. And historically, the meek managers are the poor ones, especially in this organization.

russ99
09-04-2011, 09:09 PM
Rob Mackowiak says hello

Brian Anderson's crappy hitting skills say hello.

Daver
09-04-2011, 09:28 PM
Brian Anderson's crappy hitting skills say hello.

He'd be an improvement over Rios both offensively and defensively.

SI1020
09-04-2011, 09:30 PM
Brian Anderson's crappy hitting skills say hello.Sorry but Ozzie has not shown himself to be a keen judge of talent.

russ99
09-04-2011, 09:38 PM
Sorry but Ozzie has not shown himself to be a keen judge of talent.

It's the GM's job to evaluate talent. And In that case, he has. Was Brian Anderson ever an even mediocre big league hitter? No.

SI1020
09-04-2011, 10:13 PM
It's the GM's job to evaluate talent. And In that case, he has. Was Brian Anderson ever an even mediocre big league hitter? No. I'll give you credit, you are consistent. Yes Ozzie the great teacher of fundamentals like John McGraw. A brilliant in game chess player ala Lopez and Weaver. A skillful handler of pitchers in the manner of a Sparky Anderson. Last but not least a classy and calm gentleman that reminds one of Walter Alston. May he manage the Sox as long as Connie Mack managed the A's.

Tragg
09-04-2011, 10:23 PM
It's the GM's job to evaluate talent. And In that case, he has. Was Brian Anderson ever an even mediocre big league hitter? No.

Was the "tremendous" DeWayne Wise?

I think the best aspect of Guillen's managing, and it is a biggie, is that the team generally played hard under him. And we can see it tonight....after playing hard all year, once reality set in in the 9th yesterday, they are exhausted.

BainesHOF
09-04-2011, 11:11 PM
Well, at least we know 14 percent of people either have been frozen in a time warp since 2005 or don't know jack about baseball. It's hard to believe that anyone at this point thinks Guillen should come back.

CubsDrool
09-04-2011, 11:57 PM
Can we get rid of Dunn, Beckham and Rios instead? I think that would do a lot more good.

Hitmen77
09-05-2011, 12:06 AM
Can we get rid of Dunn, Beckham and Rios instead? I think that would do a lot more good.

The Sox owe Dunn and Rios a combined $82 million through 2014.

To answer your question, No we can't get rid of them because no other team would be crazy enough to take on those contracts.

Nellie_Fox
09-05-2011, 12:34 AM
Yes and the Ozzie brigade here will defend him no matter what. What organization allows its manager to repeatedly savage its fan base like the Sox do? I've never seen a human being so enabled by so many the way Ozzie is.Where is this "brigade?" The open Ozzie support has been pretty small. My personal position is that I've seen many, many managers come and go. If Ozzie goes, that's baseball. If he's back next year, that's baseball. I'm not personally invested either way. You can make your point without constructing a straw man to argue with.

Well, at least we know 14 percent of people either have been frozen in a time warp since 2005 or don't know jack about baseball. It's hard to believe that anyone at this point thinks Guillen should come back.And you can make YOUR point without stating that those who disagree with you "don't know jack about baseball." There are people who know more about the game than you or I do who will hire Ozzie to manage again when he leaves the White Sox, so what does that tell you?

Lip Man 1
09-05-2011, 12:37 AM
Nellie:

You have a point although to say Jeffrey Loria knows a lot about baseball is stretching things isn't it?

:D:

Lip

Nellie_Fox
09-05-2011, 12:45 AM
Nellie:

You have a point although to say Jeffrey Loria knows a lot about baseball is stretching things isn't it?

:D:

LipYeah, and I don't know why anyone would want to work for Loria, either. But I'll bet they're not the only team that would give him a call the next time there's a managerial opening.

Dan H
09-05-2011, 02:46 AM
There are people who know more about the game than you or I do who will hire Ozzie to manage again when he leaves the White Sox, so what does that tell you?

They can have him. Right now.

BainesHOF
09-05-2011, 02:58 AM
There are people who know more about the game than you or I do who will hire Ozzie to manage again when he leaves the White Sox, so what does that tell you?

Baseball people make ridiculous decisions all the time. For instance, it was hilarious that the Mets gave Manuel another managing job. Not sure why anyone who knew Quade thought he'd make a good manager. If Florida or another team hires Guillen to manage, that doesn't make him any smarter. It simply means there's a sucker born every minute.

Nellie_Fox
09-05-2011, 11:38 PM
Baseball people make ridiculous decisions all the time. For instance, it was hilarious that the Mets gave Manuel another managing job. Not sure why anyone who knew Quade thought he'd make a good manager. If Florida or another team hires Guillen to manage, that doesn't make him any smarter. It simply means there's a sucker born every minute.Okay, so you know more about baseball than they do. I don't.

tony1972
09-07-2011, 08:39 PM
I've supported Ozzie even when many in the masses have not over the past couple years. At this point though, it might be time.

I was pro-Ozzie until last week when he bought up his contract. To put yourself first when your team is fighting for a playoff spot? He lost my support that day. It was not the time and the place at all.

Once a manager puts themsevles before a team..it's time to go.

DumpJerry
09-07-2011, 08:42 PM
I was pro-Ozzie until last week when he bought up his contract. To put yourself first when your team is fighting for a playoff spot? He lost my support that day. It was not the time and the place at all.

Once a manager puts themsevles before a team..it's time to go.
He brought up his contract because a reporter asked a specific question about it. It was a no-win situation for him. If he refused to answer, the media would have said he is angry at the organization and refused to talk about the contract. If he said he was satisfied, the media would have said he was lying since it is very rare that a manager enters a season a lame duck.

Frater Perdurabo
09-07-2011, 08:59 PM
He brought up his contract because a reporter asked a specific question about it. It was a no-win situation for him. If he refused to answer, the media would have said he is angry at the organization and refused to talk about the contract. If he said he was satisfied, the media would have said he was lying since it is very rare that a manager enters a season a lame duck.

He could have said something to the effect of, "I am satisfied to have the security of being under contract to manage the Sox next year, but we're in the middle of a pennant race and my focus is on winning the division this year. We can talk about contracts after this season ends, which hopefully won't be until late October."

Is that really so difficult?

DumpJerry
09-07-2011, 09:00 PM
He could have said something to the effect of, "I am satisfied to have the security of being under contract to manage the Sox next year, but we're in the middle of a pennant race and my focus is on winning the division this year. We can talk about contracts after this season ends, which hopefully won't be until late October."

Is that really so difficult?
Reporters would have called bull**** on that response. It's a dodge because he's heading into a lame duck year.

Frater Perdurabo
09-07-2011, 09:04 PM
Reporters would have called bull**** on that response. It's a dodge because he's heading into a lame duck year.

Fine. Let the reporters do that. Then it's just them speculating, when it would fly in the face of the actual quote.

If they press him on it, repeat the same answer.

If Ozzie is so smart, he should be smart enough not to say something so selfish and stupid, even when pressed by a reporter.

Rocky Soprano
09-08-2011, 09:29 AM
Fine. Let the reporters do that. Then it's just them speculating, when it would fly in the face of the actual quote.

If they press him on it, repeat the same answer.

If Ozzie is so smart, he should be smart enough not to say something so selfish and stupid, even when pressed by a reporter.

Unfortunately he's not.

SI1020
09-08-2011, 10:20 AM
Reporters would have called bull**** on that response. It's a dodge because he's heading into a lame duck year. I sincerely doubt that. The Chicago media fawns over Ozzie.

Nellie_Fox
09-08-2011, 11:11 AM
Unfortunately he's not.I don't know that it has anything to do with intelligence. Ozzie firmly believes that it's a virtue to be bluntly honest. Ask him a question, he'll give you an answer.

I'm still not convinced that he said what everybody thinks he said. It could also mean "since I'm on the last year of my contract, and they haven't talked about an extension, I'm not sure they're going to bring me back." He knows that a manager is almost never brought back on the last year of a contract without extending it first.

Rocky Soprano
09-08-2011, 11:49 AM
I don't know that it has anything to do with intelligence. Ozzie firmly believes that it's a virtue to be bluntly honest. Ask him a question, he'll give you an answer.

I'm still not convinced that he said what everybody thinks he said. It could also mean "since I'm on the last year of my contract, and they haven't talked about an extension, I'm not sure they're going to bring me back." He knows that a manager is almost never brought back on the last year of a contract without extending it first.

I tend to agree, but usually one knows when its best to give a canned response. That was not the time for him to be talking about an extension or to be concentrating on himself.

For whatever reason it appears that Ozzie is missing that filter, tact, or intelligence.

JB98
09-08-2011, 12:34 PM
I sincerely doubt that. The Chicago media fawns over Ozzie.

He's great copy, that's for sure. There are a lot of column inches to fill during a baseball season, and Ozzie helps the beat writers fill 'em.